1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Scoot to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb. Joe is away from work. 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: He's realigning his gray matter at the moment, so it's 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: just me today, but I'll be joined by neuroscientist, author, 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: and science communicator David Eagelman about his new book Live Wired, 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: The Inside Story of the Ever Changing Brain. Now we've 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: mentioned David Eagelman on the show many times before. He's 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: an adjunct professor at Stanford University and his CEO of 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: Neo Sensory, a company that develops devices for sensory substitution. 11 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: You may also know him from his previous books about 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: the human brain, his TV series The Brain with David Eagleman, 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 1: and his role as a scientific advisor on HBO's Westworld, 14 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: and the t NT series Perception. I'm recording this on 15 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: a Monday, and I actually read Live Wired over the weekend. 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: It's a highly addictive read and one that I think 17 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: our listeners will will really enjoy. David does an amazing 18 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: job breaking down the inner workings of the brain via 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: relatable pop culture and historical metaphors. Everything from the Colonization 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: of the America's to Mr Potato Head and Ellen Ripley 21 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: from Aliens. It's published by Pantheon Books and you can 22 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: currently grab it as a hardcover, an e book, or 23 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: an audio book. And the fun thing is that that 24 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: David reads the audio book. It's always great when you 25 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: when you get that with an audio book. So, without 26 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: without any further ado, let's jump right in. David Eagleman, 27 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: thanks for joining me today. Great to be here, Robert. 28 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: First of all, I have I just have to say 29 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: that this book was such an engaging read. Actually read 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: it all over the weekend, and while I was familiar 31 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: with some of the findings and technologies discussed, there was 32 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: plenty I hadn't been exposed to yet, and it was 33 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: all delivered in such a fashion that it all ended 34 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: up feeling like, you know, it's kind of like a revelation. Um, 35 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: and I feel like that revelation is really well summarized 36 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: in the title of the book, live Wired. If you would, 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: could you summarize the basic difference between the idea of 38 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: the live wired understanding of our brain as opposed to 39 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: previous notions of how the brain worked. Yeah, I mean 40 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: the whole The whole thing is that when you first 41 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: pick up a neuroscience textbook as a young person, you 42 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: see a picture of the brain and it says this 43 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: parts or visions, parts are hearing, the parts are touch, 44 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: and so on. But in fact, UM, I guess what 45 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: I've spent the last twenty years, you know, in my 46 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: laboratory really understanding the lesson of is that the brain 47 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: is a is a dynamic system that's constantly moving around. 48 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: And so, for example, if you go blind, the part 49 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: that we would have called your visual system gets taken 50 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: over by hearing and touch. If you lose an arm, 51 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: the part of your body map that has an arm 52 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: gets taken over by neighboring areas, and so on. The 53 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: whole thing is this incredibly dynamic system. It's not like 54 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: anything that we know how to build. Um. You know, 55 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: here in Silicon Valley where I live, everything is about 56 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: hardware and software, and engineers are praised for building an 57 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: efficient system where you've got these two layers and that's it, um. 58 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: But what's happening in our skulls is an entirely different 59 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: kind of technology. And so I in the book, I 60 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: ended up coining a new term for this live Wired 61 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: or live where. And the idea with live where is 62 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: that every moment of your life, this is reconfiguring itself. 63 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: So you've got eighty six billion neurons, these are the 64 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: cell types in the brain. You've got about point two 65 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: quadrillion connections, and every moment in your life, these things 66 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: are changing their strength of connection. They're unplugging, they're replugging elsewhere, 67 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: they're seeking around. What you have are these dense jungles. 68 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: And you know, this level of complexity is something that 69 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: bankrupts our language. We don't have any way of talking 70 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: about point two quadrillion connections moving and changing. But everything 71 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: in your life, every experience that you have, UM changes 72 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: who you are. When you learn, for example, that my 73 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: name is David, there's a physical change in the structure 74 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: of your brain. And that's what it means for you 75 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: to then remember, you know, two months later, who's the 76 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: guy you had on your podcast David. You know, it's 77 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: like it's it's this constantly changing system and it's UM 78 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: unlike anything that we know how to build at the moment. 79 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: So UM you know, as you as you saw in 80 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: the book, I tell these different stories just by way 81 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: of introduction that are so fascinating, Like you can take 82 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: out half the brain in a child. For example, when 83 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: children have this really bad type of epilepsy, there's a 84 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: surgery that they go through. Half the brain is removed, 85 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: and they're just fine cognitively, they're totally fine because the 86 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: rest of their brain, the other half says, Okay, I'm 87 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: gonna rewire the functions that are that went missing from there. 88 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: Sometimes a child is born with only half a brain, 89 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: you know, and things just get get rewired so that 90 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: it all is there and we can't you know, you 91 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: can't do this with your cell phone or your computer. 92 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: You can't take out half the circuitry and expect it 93 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: to still function. But it works just fine, especially with 94 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: a young brain. Now, with all of this in mind, 95 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: into this live wired understanding of the brain in mind, um, 96 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: I thought we might back up to a very basic question. Uh. 97 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: Sometimes I guess we don't think about because we're I mean, 98 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: we were trapped in the brain. We can't see the 99 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: forest for the trees. But what what does the brain do? 100 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: So the brain is locked in silence and darkness inside 101 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: the vault of your skull, and all it's trying to 102 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: do is make a model of the world, as in, 103 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: I've got all this incoming data. And by the way, 104 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: the data that comes into the brain is just spikes, 105 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: just little electrical spikes, and these neurons. It doesn't know 106 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: that these spikes represent photons, and these spikes represent air 107 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: compression waves, and these spikes represent mixtures of molecules hitting 108 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: a membrane and so on. All it knows is I've 109 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 1: got data coming in as zeroes and ones and um 110 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: and it knows that it can can troll a body. 111 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: And so it's job is to figure out, all right, 112 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: how do I control the body? How does that change 113 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: the spikes coming in? And how do I make a 114 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: model of the world. And this is an extraordinary technology 115 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: that we have carrying around on our shoulders. Um, As 116 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: I said, we we don't know how to build technology 117 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: like this, and we're just scratching the surface of even 118 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: trying to figure this out. But that's what the brain 119 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: is doing, locked in its in its vault, is figuring out, Okay, 120 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: how do I understand the world. And and it's really 121 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: extraordinarily good at at extracting patterns and eventually making predictions 122 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: and um, yeah, that is that is the main job 123 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: that is trying to accomplish. Now, the big part of 124 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: the book deals with how our senses, uh you know, 125 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: speak to the brain and how the brain works around 126 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: limitations uh such as that are the ones you mentioned 127 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: with the half of the brain being missing at etcetera. 128 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: And also uh you know relating limbs uh and uh 129 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: and I love how use these various metaphors to explain 130 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: that to the reader. Would you mind explaining to our 131 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: listeners how our brains are, like Mr potato Head. Yeah, 132 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: So this is something that struck me many years ago 133 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: where I realized that, so we've got all these sensors 134 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: like our eyes and our ears and our nose and 135 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: our fingertips. All these things were used to and so 136 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: we just sort of think of these as fundamental. But 137 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: but when you look across the animal kingdom, what you 138 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: find are all these other weird kinds of sensors, things 139 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: that you could take in like snakes taken infrared information, 140 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: honey bees taken ultra violet. When you look at something 141 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: like the black Ghost knifefish, it has electro receptors where 142 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: it's pulling in information about perturbations and electrical fields. Um. 143 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: Lots of birds and cows and insects have magneto reception 144 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: where they are picking up on the magnetic field of 145 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: the planet and they're navigating that way and so on. 146 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: And what I realized is Mother Nature doesn't actually have 147 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: to recreate the brain every time she does this. Instead, 148 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: the principles of brain operation, she's figured that out at 149 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: the beginning in ing, and then she can just plug 150 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: in anything she wants in terms of what is the 151 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: information that would be useful to sense. And that's why 152 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: I suggested this potato head model of how to think 153 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: about this, which is to say, you just take any 154 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: sensors and you stick it in and it's good to go. 155 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: The brain figures out, Okay, I've got this kind of 156 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: spikes coming in um, and it seems to correlate with 157 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: this other sense, and it seems to allow me to 158 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: find food or avoid predators or whatever. And so it 159 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: just figures out what to do with that information. And 160 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: so this is a very new kind of way to 161 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: think about the brain. It's essentially understanding the brain as 162 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: a general purpose compute device. You feed in whatever kind 163 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: of data stream you want, and it's and it's good 164 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: to go. And this, you know, explains a lot of 165 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: what happens evolutionarily with genetics. It just what it allows 166 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: Mother Nature to do is just tweak around with the 167 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: genetics to make new kinds of sensors. But one of 168 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: the really amazing things you you discussed in this is 169 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: that is that you can plug an eye into an 170 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: ear hole or an ear into an eye hole on 171 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: the Mr Potato head of our of our brain, and 172 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: the brain will roll with the data that that's exactly right. 173 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: And so this is an area called sensory substitution, which 174 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: is to say, you can feed information into the brain 175 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: via an unusual channel. And so something I started in 176 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: my lab about ten years ago was seeing if we 177 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: could build sensory substitution for people who are deaf. So 178 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: what we do. We started by building this as a 179 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: vest with vibratory motors in it. So you've got a 180 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: whole bunch of little buzzers like the buzzer in your 181 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: cell phone, and um, it captures sound and turns out 182 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: into patterns of vibration on the torso. And it turns 183 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: out that that worked really well. We could get people 184 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: who are profoundly deaf to start understanding what is happening 185 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: in the auditory world just predicated on this spatio temporal 186 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: pattern of vibrations on their skin. And the reason it 187 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: worked is because it doesn't matter how the information gets 188 00:09:58,120 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: to the brain. As long as it gets there, the 189 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: rain will establish the correlations and figure out what to 190 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: do with it. So, as an example, if you see, 191 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: you know, the dog's mouth moving and you feel the 192 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: buzzing on your skin, you know, your brain puts that 193 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: together really easily. Or you know, you see somebody speaking, 194 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: or or we train people by showing a word and 195 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: you you know, you feel the world on the vest 196 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: and you start understanding what's going on. So what we 197 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: did then is we shrunk it down to the size 198 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: of a wrist band. And because you and I are 199 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: on video, Robert, you can see the wrist band that 200 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: I'm wearing right now. It's you know, it looks about 201 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: the size of a fitbit and it has very sophisticated 202 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: computation in here where it's capturing sound and turning that 203 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: into patterns vibration around the skin of the wrist. And um, 204 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: so what we've been doing is we uh this Actually 205 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: now I spun a company out of my lab called 206 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: neosensory and we have been on the market since March 207 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: and we're now on wrists all around the world. So 208 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: people who are deaf for have hearing loss of some 209 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: degree where this and they are picking up on the 210 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: auditory world through their skin. Now, the interesting part is 211 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: this is exactly what the inner ear is doing. Your 212 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: inner ear is just registering vibrations of your ear drum 213 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: and it breaks sound up into from high to low frequency, 214 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: and then it ships it off to the brain. And 215 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: all we're doing is transferring the inner ear to to 216 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: the wrist and it works. So that's the idea of 217 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: sensory substitution. Is your um just getting the information there 218 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: via a different route and the brain figures out what 219 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: to do with it. And if this weren't amazing enough, 220 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: there's this then this this other additional step, this idea 221 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: of of plugging all new things into it, like new 222 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: forms of sensory information, new even uh, you know, not 223 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: only limbs of replacement, but artificial additional limbs. Use the 224 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: example of doctor Octopus from the spider Man comics. Um, 225 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: can you tell us a little bit about how even 226 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: like this nineteen sixties sci fi concept is not that 227 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: far removed from our current understanding of the brain. Yeah, 228 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: so um, let me actually let me say two things. Actually, 229 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: one is what we can do, so let me just 230 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: separate out sensory information coming in and motor information going out. 231 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: So sensory information coming in. One of the things we're 232 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: doing with the with our wristband called buzz Um is 233 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: we can not only take in sound information for people 234 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: who are deaf, but we could actually expand the sensory 235 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: information that you would normally have. So for example, with 236 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: somebody who's not deaf, we feed in ultra violet or 237 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: infrared or or things like that, where we're expanding senses 238 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: that you already have. And then we're doing this other 239 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: thing called sensory addition, where we're feeding in brand new 240 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: senses that you've never had. So we can feed in 241 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: any day to stream with this, like stock market data 242 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: or Twitter data or factory information or anything at all. 243 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: Feeding this in and as long as your brain can 244 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: make correlations with what it's seeing or hearing around it, 245 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: then the brain can figure out how to utilize that information. 246 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: So we actually just finished a big developer contest where 247 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: people did all kinds of projects with you know um 248 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: monitoring air quality or monitoring you know, blood sugar and 249 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: your bloodstream or um. Um many many different kinds of 250 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: monitoring of feeling, electrical fields and so on. UM. So 251 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: all this, by the way, if if anybody is interested, 252 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: we have an open a p I and an s 253 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: d K four buzz. You can get this on neo 254 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: central dot com and pursue any kind of project you 255 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: want this way. So we've had hundreds of people just 256 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: making their own thing, which has been which has been 257 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: very cool. Now to switch to the second thing about 258 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: motor output. UM, Yeah, it turns out that your brain 259 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: UM is not pre programmed to drive your body, but 260 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: instead can figure out whatever the affordances are of whatever 261 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: is there. So just as an example, you know, one 262 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: of the things I tell the story about this dog 263 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: UM that was born without four limbs. It didn't have 264 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: his front legs, and so it just she walked bipetally. 265 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: She walks on her back legs like a human and 266 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: presumably any dog could do this, but they're not sufficiently motivated, 267 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: but so she just walks around her hind legs and UM. 268 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: What this illustrates is that dog brains are not pre 269 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 1: programmed to drive dog bodies, but instead they figure out, Okay, 270 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: here's what I can do. I need to get to 271 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: my food, to my water, to my mother whatever. This 272 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: is how I do it. And so um. Also, I 273 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: you know, tell the story of the guy who's the 274 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: world's best archer. He has the world's record for best 275 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: archery shot, and he doesn't have arms, so he does 276 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: this with his legs. And it's just another illustration that 277 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: the brain figures out whatever body it's in says okay, 278 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: I figure how to drive this. Of course, we see 279 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: this when people, for example, get an amputation. Let's say 280 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: they lose an arm in a motorcycle, accent or something. 281 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: The map of their body in their brain readjusts to say, Okay, 282 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: I see I've got a body without an arm, so 283 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna figure that out now. Okay. So, because 284 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: it is not pre programmed, it's extremely flexible. Um. I 285 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: think that we could actually build any kind of body 286 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: we want. So um, coming back to your question, I 287 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,359 Speaker 1: you know mentioned about Doc Cock in the nineteen sixties, 288 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: which debuted in spider Man, the scientist who plugs in 289 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: four robotic arms so that he can actually do extra 290 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: things and poor beakers and so on, and he controls 291 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: us with his brain. But then there's an explosion his 292 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: lab and he turns evil and he scales buildings and 293 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: learns new forms of martial arts with with eight arms 294 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: and so on, and um, Dr Octavia starts to go 295 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: by Doc Dock. Anyway, UM, the exactly as you said, 296 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: This is not as far off and weird as we 297 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: used to think, because now what we're doing is with 298 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: for example, patients who are paralyzed. Um, you can put 299 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: electrodes into their motor cortex and they can learn to 300 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: drive a robotic arm even though they are paralyzed. They 301 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: drive the robotic arm with their thoughts, which sounds weird, 302 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: but that's of course, how you drive your fleshy arm. 303 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: You just you know, you think about it, you learned 304 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: the you learned what the put signals are that make 305 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: your arm respond. It's the same thing with the robotic arm, 306 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: and you can do that. And there have been experiments 307 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: with monkeys where they their bodies work fine, they're not paralyzed, 308 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: but they can drive a third arm with you know, 309 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: with their thoughts. So they're driving a robotic arm with 310 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: their thoughts. There was an experiment done where a monkey 311 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: um uses his motor cortex to make a robot walk. 312 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: But the interesting part was the robot happened to be 313 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: across the world. The monkey was in North Carolina and 314 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: the robot was in Japan, and the signals from the 315 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: monkey's brain were being sent over the internet. And you 316 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: can get the robot, you know, the monkey to control 317 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: the robot just with the spikes in its motor cortex. 318 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: And so, UM, I think it's going to be no 319 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: time at all before we really start controlling external devices 320 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: with our thoughts. And one of the things, one of 321 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: the frameworks that I build is this issue that what 322 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: we think of as the self, what you think of 323 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: as your body, just as a matter of control, what 324 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: can you control with your body? And I think this 325 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: is by the way, why we understand our reflections in 326 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: a mirror to be us. Because you move in it moves, 327 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: and so you're driving what you're seeing over there, so 328 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: you think, oh, yeah, that's me over there. Um. But 329 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: what this means is in you know, make up a 330 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: number thirty five years, when we are controlling a robot 331 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: with our thoughts, it is essentially an extension of our body. 332 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: What it means is that that will become us. It 333 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: will be a part of of your body. All right, 334 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but I'll be 335 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: right back with David Eagleman. Thank alright, I'm back with 336 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: David Eagleman. In the book, you talk about the live 337 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: wired brain as as being a place of competition, um, 338 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: based on the input that's coming in. And I was 339 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: just really uh intrigued by this, this new theory of 340 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: dreaming that you discuss. Would you would you mind h 341 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: sharing that with our listeners. Yeah, um, yeah, this is 342 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: something very cool that's come out of our studies of plasticity, 343 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: and UM here it is. It's that when any part 344 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: of the brain goes unused, it gets taken over. And 345 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: so for example, if you go blind, your systems for 346 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: hearing and touch and all of that real estate will 347 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: take over the part of the brain that we used 348 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: to call the visual cortex. So the surprise in neuroscience 349 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: has been how rapidly this happens. Um. What group found 350 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: about thirteen years ago was that if you take sighted 351 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: people and you blindfold them tightly and you stick them 352 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: in a brain scanner, within about an hour you can 353 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: start seeing activity in the visual cortex just based on 354 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: um hearing or touch. If you touch them on the 355 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: hand or something, you start seeing activation in the visual cortex. Now, 356 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: it's not because the neurons have had a chance to 357 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: grow that fast from hearing and touch into the visual cortex. Instead, 358 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: there's all kinds of cross wiring the brain where those 359 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: systems are already reaching over into the visual cortex. It's 360 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 1: just that they're normally silenced and they're inhibited, so they 361 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: don't get to do anything. But that inhibition starts wearing 362 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: off very quickly. And so I was really shocked by 363 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: the speed at which hearing and touch could take over. 364 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: And so my student and I were talking about this 365 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: one day, and what we realized is there's a very 366 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: critical thing that happens because we live on a planet 367 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: that rotates into darkness for half the time. You know, 368 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: in the dark you can still hear and touch and 369 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: taste and smell and all that just fine, but you 370 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: can't see. And of course I'm talking about evolutionary time, 371 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: not recent electricity times. And so um, what this means 372 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: is that the visual cortex has always been in a 373 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: big disadvantage when the planet rotates into darkness. And so 374 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: what we realized is, Wow, if it doesn't want to 375 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: get taken over by the other senses, it has to 376 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: have some way of defending its territory. And what we 377 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: realized was that that's what dreams are. You have this 378 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: very specific circuitry that starts in the midbrain and goes 379 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: through a series of depths and just blasts activity into 380 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: the visual cortex every night about every ninety minutes, and 381 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,239 Speaker 1: and that's its only job. It's just blast activity in there. 382 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: It's very specialized circuitry. It's very specific of the type 383 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: of thing that to the ananimouss eye is not accidental. 384 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: And so and of course, because it's our visual cortex, 385 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: we you know, we see and we think, oh, I'm 386 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: having this full, rich visual experience. Um. And of course 387 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: dream content might have to do with you know, it 388 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: certainly has to do with what you've experienced during the 389 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: day in which synapses are still hot and so on. 390 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: But but the point is that it's just blasting activity 391 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: in there to defend the visual system against takeover. And 392 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: so we've now done big studies on this. For example, 393 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: where I'll just give you one thing that we just 394 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: published recently where we compared twenty five different species of 395 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: primates and we looked at how plastic they were, because 396 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: across even the primate kingdom, you have this um you know, 397 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: spectrum of how plastic you drop into the world and 398 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: then how much rems sleep they get in other words, 399 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: how much you know, rapid eye movement or or dream sleep, 400 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: because this is when dreams happen. And it turns out 401 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 1: that the more plastic you are as a species, the 402 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: more dream sleep you have because you need to defend 403 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: it more. As opposed to the other end of the spectrum. 404 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: And say, lemurs drop into the world and they're pretty 405 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: much fully baked um and they have very short you know, 406 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: adolescents time and walking time and weaning time and all 407 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: that stuff. Um, they don't have much dream sleep because 408 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: they don't need it because their brain is sort of 409 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: baked into place. And by the way, I'll just mention 410 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: one other thing because people sometimes ask about this, which 411 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: is um you know, they say, do blind people dream? Yes, 412 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: blind people have dreams where activity is getting shot into 413 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: their occipital lobe at the back of their head. But 414 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: because they are blind, they don't experience that is vision. Instead, 415 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: they experience. It is hearing and touch. So blind people's 416 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: dreams are all about you know, weird bizarre things just 417 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: like ours, but it's not involving vision. It's you know, 418 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: I'm I'm walking around the house and all my furniture 419 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 1: is rearranged and I'm feeling stuff, and then there's a 420 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: air and I'm feeling the bear and all that kind 421 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: of stuff. So um, but it's exactly the same circuitry 422 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: that they have, because this is a very fundamental circuitry 423 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 1: that has burned into the system. And it doesn't care 424 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: whether your eyes are working or not, because it's it's more, 425 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: it's deeper than that, and has working on this has 426 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 1: has changed the way you reflect on your own dreams 427 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: at all. You know, I've always actually felt that dreams 428 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: are not terribly meaningful like my own. You know, I 429 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: wake up. I've always described this as sort of sticking 430 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: your head in the night blender each night. I kind 431 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: of hate trede Um, But now I have a deeper 432 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: appreciation for why I'm going through that night blender because um, 433 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: if not, I would wake up in my visual system 434 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: would be really disadvantaged. It would be taken over in 435 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: large part by hearing it by touch. Especially in the 436 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: later portions of the book, you you get into two 437 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: memories and and even identity, and there's there's a lot 438 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: that really seems to resonate with the state of the 439 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: world right now. How do you feel this book speaks 440 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: to the reader? Yeah, I think there. I think there 441 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: are many ways. Um I'll mention too. One is actually, 442 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: let me start with this optimistic one, which is um 443 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: as lousy as has been for everybody. And you know, 444 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: this is a year where there's serious spikes for everybody 445 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: in stress, anxiety, depression. It's just there's all kinds of 446 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: bad stuff. But I will mention one tiny silver lining 447 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: of this is that, from the point of view of 448 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: brain plasticity, we've all been kicked off of our hamster 449 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: wheels and we're all being forced to rethink many things 450 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: that we never thought about before. So I mentioned before 451 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: that our brain is locked in silence and darkness, is 452 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: trying to make an internal model of the world out there, 453 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: and we all pretty much had that. We thought, Okay, 454 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: I get how the world works, I get how things operate, 455 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: how people respond, how to get toilet paper, how to 456 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: get food in my fridge, stuff like that, and all 457 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: of a sudden everything changed. And from the point of 458 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 1: view of brain plasticity, this is actually really useful. It 459 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: has forced a kind of creativity, an unwanted one for sure, 460 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: but it's forced kind of creativity where you're having to 461 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: rethink everything. We're having to understand many things in more 462 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: depth that we never thought twice about before. And um 463 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: it turns out when we look at things like you know, dementia, 464 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: what happens is people retire and they stop challenging themselves, 465 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: and their brains end up in a worse and worse state. 466 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: And the people who retire and end up fine and 467 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: much better off are those who keep challenging themselves with 468 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: novel things. And that includes even basic things like just 469 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: you know, making sure you're not just sitting around watching TV, 470 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: but instead, you know, taking on new sorts of challenges 471 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: and tasks and keeping an active social life and stuff 472 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 1: like that. So anyway, this is what's happening to all 473 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: of us. And I have a slight suspicion this will 474 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: be hard to prove, but just an intuition that we 475 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: may find a slight dip in dementia UM in in 476 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: the coming years. For people who have been you have 477 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: lived through this early twenties, um, simply because they've really 478 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: gotten a chance to build all kinds of new roadways 479 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: in their brain, whereas they might not have done that 480 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: as as adults. The second thing that I'll mention as 481 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: far as is one of the things that my lab 482 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: has been studying for a very long time is social neuroscience, 483 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: which is this issue of how there's a lot of 484 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: the brain circuitry that's devoted to other people. In other words, 485 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: you know, we normally look at the brain and we 486 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: think already there's hearing, these touchows, vision and so on, 487 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: But in fact, a lot of your circuitry has to 488 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,479 Speaker 1: do with modeling other people. And you might know a 489 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: thousand people and you've actually got circuitry devoted to every 490 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: one of them, and circuitry devoted to okay, who knows 491 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: who and have they dated before and blah blah blah. 492 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a very sophisicated social system that 493 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: we're carrying around. And so one of the things that 494 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: got me interested a long time ago, and we've published 495 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: and written on this for years, but suddenly it really 496 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: is important. Is this issue about in groups and out groups, 497 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: and it turns out that, um we here, I'll just 498 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: tell you really quickly about a study we did. We 499 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: take people into the brain scanner and we show them 500 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: six hands on a screen, and the computer goes around 501 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: and selects one of the hands at random, and then 502 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: you see that hand get stabbed with a syringe needle. 503 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: And what happens is you really cringe when you see that. 504 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: It's it's awful to see somebody's hand get stabblished with 505 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: a needle. And that activates this network in your brain 506 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: that summarized as the pain matrix, which is to say, 507 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: you're you're such a feeling the pain of that. Um 508 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: that is the neural basis of empathy. You care about 509 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: somebody else because you're immediately running a simulation of what 510 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 1: if that was my hand, even though it's not physically 511 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: your hand getting touched. But what we do then is 512 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: we put a one word label on each of these 513 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: hands Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Hindu, scientologist, and then the 514 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: computer goes around and picks a hand and see the 515 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: hand gets stabbed. And the question is do you care? 516 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: Does your brain care as much if it's someone in 517 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: your out group versus a member of your in group, 518 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happens. If it's a member of 519 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: your in group, you have a much bigger response, and 520 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: if it's remember of your outgroup, your brain doesn't really 521 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: care that much. And it turns out that we do 522 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: all kinds of versions of this. Just as one example, 523 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: we then say, okay, the year is twenty five, and 524 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: these three religions have teamed up against these three religions, 525 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: and now your two allies you care slightly more than 526 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: you did a minute ago, just because you're told in 527 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: this one sense thing that that they're allied with you, 528 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: and the others are still clearly in your outgroups. So 529 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: your brain just doesn't care as much. And by the way, 530 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: just as a side note, atheists have exactly the same 531 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: thing about seeing atheist hands get stud So it's not 532 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: an indictment of religion. It's just an issue about in 533 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: groups and out groups who you feel like you know 534 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: what your labels are. UM. So we've done a lot 535 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: of work on that. If anyone's interested, I wrote in 536 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: uh an article in The Economist last year called does 537 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 1: your brain care about other people? It depends um, But 538 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: all of a sudden in. Unfortunately, all of this stuff 539 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: is more relevant because society is really finding ways to 540 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: divide themselves up with in groups and now groups. Um. 541 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: You know, some people blame social media. The fact is, 542 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,239 Speaker 1: you know, I'm a real student of history, and the 543 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: fact is that we've had this kind of stuff happened 544 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: all the time, with the Chinese Cultural Revolution or the 545 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: Russian Revolution or you know, or what happened in Nazi 546 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: Germany or we we've we've seen this stuff lots of 547 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: times before the Internet. So it's not like the Internet. 548 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: Is this the single thing to blame here, This is 549 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: just human nature. Um. So anyway, this is what I 550 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: think is relevant to Alright, we're gonna take one more break, 551 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: but I'll be right back with David Eagleman. Thank alright, 552 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: I'm back with David Eagleman. So well, let's let's take 553 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: a brief journey into the future here again coming back 554 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: to the idea of neural technology in the future allowing 555 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: us to augment our senses our bodies. If you, let's 556 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: say you were to enter a state of suspended animation 557 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: and emerge a hundred years from now, how much of 558 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: the human sensory experience will have changed, and how different, 559 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: How difficult do you think it would be for a 560 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: twenty second century human to relate these senses to you? Yeah, 561 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: I think I think this is a key issue, which 562 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: is to say, we have certain what are called quality 563 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: of which is, you know, our internal experience of something 564 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,239 Speaker 1: like vision and hearing and so on. And you know, 565 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: obviously the stuff is completely made up by our brains 566 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: in the sense that just as example, colors don't exist 567 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: in the world. All you have is different wavelength of 568 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: electromagnetic radiation. But your brain comes up with a way 569 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: of summarizing things quickly, so it can see the ripe 570 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: fruit against the green leaves. It says, okay, I'm gonna 571 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: call that red that green perfect um, even though that 572 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: doesn't exist. So we have this internal experience of the world. 573 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: And of course, you know, sound also doesn't exist as such, 574 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: You've just got air compression waves, but we turn it 575 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: into you know, beautiful voices in music and so on. Um. Okay, 576 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. It's because your brain has lots 577 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: of experience with this that it eventually turns it into 578 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: this direct perceptual experience. And so the question is, now, 579 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: if you fed in a new kind of data stream 580 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: through the neo century buzz, for example, the wristband. If 581 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: you fed in a completely new kind of thing, would 582 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: you come to have a direct perceptual experience of it? 583 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: And our data right now suggests yes, that that you would. 584 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: And the thing that's so weird about this is there's 585 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: actually no way to describe it to somebody who has 586 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: not had that experience. So imagine that you had a 587 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: friend who is color blind and you tried to explain 588 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: orange to your friend. There's no way that she would understand. 589 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: She could eventually pretend and say, okay, Robert just quit 590 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: talking and I'm gonna pretend I understand, but she wouldn't 591 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: ever understand orange nous. Why because you have to experience 592 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: it to get it and so um. And you know, 593 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,239 Speaker 1: if you have a blind friend, try to explain what 594 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: vision is your friends, I don't understand. You're you're trying 595 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: to You're you're capturing folte that you're capturing millions of 596 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: photons of second from across great distances, and there's just 597 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: no way that they can understand what that's like. And 598 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: so the same thing applies, I think for twenty second 599 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: century people who are getting direct data streams fed to 600 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: their brain of stock market or microwave data information or 601 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: um you know, gamma ray information or whatever the thing 602 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: is that they're feeding in. You're like the person who 603 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: doesn't understand what orange is or what vision is to them. 604 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: And they can try really hard to explain to you, 605 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: and you can even pretend at some point they understand, 606 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: but you you just won't. And UM, So I think 607 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: we're on the verge of a really interesting moment in 608 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: history where where we're gonna essentially start speciating, as in, 609 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: people are going to have such different experiences that they 610 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: won't be able to relate them to each other. Now, 611 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: let me just say there's a sense in which this 612 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: is no different from what we've always had in the 613 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: sense that you know, you grew up in your hometown 614 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: and had your experience. I grew up my hometown and 615 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: had my experiences. Then there's a sense in which brains 616 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: are very different anyway. Um, but this is just going 617 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: to be more of that where I'm you know, plugged 618 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: directly into Twitter, and you're plugged directly into infrared information 619 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: and we just can't quite get what the other person 620 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: is experiencing. So you worked as a science advisor on 621 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: HBO's Westworld. That's right, that's right, um. And you know, 622 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: one of the things that I've found in advising for 623 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: television in general is that there are all these topics 624 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: that I and my colleagues have debated for years, were 625 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: you know, for example, the question of could robot become 626 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: conscious and what would that mean? And would they have 627 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: free will? And so on? Um, and you know, we 628 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: write all these academic papers on it, but it's it's 629 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: such a cool opportunity to get these questions to, you know, 630 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: into the public square with fiction. And so something like 631 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: West World is tremendously successful into getting people to think 632 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: about these sorts of questions. And one of the things 633 00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: that I did as scientific advisor was, UM, got our 634 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: vest or neosensory vest into the show. So you know, 635 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: it was I don't know if anybody out there I 636 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: saw this episode during season two, but um, these military 637 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: contractors drop into west World to take care of the hosts, 638 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: the bad robots, and they are feeling on their vest 639 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: their location of the robots. So there's location over there there. Sorry, 640 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: there's a there's robbot over there. There's one over there 641 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: and then they can shoot them accordingly. But we've actually 642 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: used exactly that. For people who are blind, we've used 643 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: the same idea, which is they're wearing the vest and 644 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: they're feeling where people are around them, and oh, there's 645 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: somebody coming up behind me, there's someone over here on 646 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: my left, and so on, and then we can add 647 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: navigation directions on top of that. Um you know, so 648 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: it buzzes okay, go four, oh go, the left now 649 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: goes straight and so on. Um. So yeah, that was 650 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: a very cool, very cool opportunity that we had to 651 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: get our technology into this futuristic show. I love that 652 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 1: sequence in the show because I felt like like a 653 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: lesser show would have just copied Aliens and just had 654 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: you know, blips on a map. Uh And but this 655 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: felt this this fell thoroughly science fictional in nature, you know. 656 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: I mean, but then a GO course is using actual 657 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: technology that we're developing today. Exactly right now. You mentioned 658 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: West World bringing scientific topics or just topics concerning things 659 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: like consciousness out into the public square. The first season 660 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: at least discussed Julian James b cameral mind hypothesis or 661 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: brought that up a little bit and I know you 662 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: wrote about this a little bit in Incognito, but what 663 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: are your general thoughts on this hypothesis. You know, what's 664 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 1: interesting is that no one actually knows if it's correct 665 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: or not correct. So what Julian James proposed is that 666 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: it may be that you essentially have two sides to 667 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: the brain, the left and the right side, literally the 668 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: two hemispheres, and that those used to be more separate 669 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: and um, so it was as though people were hearing 670 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: a voice from somebody else. And what he argues is 671 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: that if you look at ancient literature, like ancient Greek 672 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: literature and so on, there's always this thing about hearing 673 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: a voice from God and so on. Um. And the 674 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: argument is that very recently the left and right hemisphere 675 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: started connecting in a deeper way. Um, and so there 676 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: was this super highway of fibers that goes back and 677 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: forth between them. And so what we have now is 678 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 1: a unified consciousness instead of two separate voices going on 679 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: in our heads. As I said, nobody really knows that 680 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 1: this is right or not, because there's no simple way 681 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: to test this directly. What I argued an incognito, though, 682 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: is essentially a a distant cousin of that, which is 683 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: that What is absolutely clear is that we are not 684 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: a single thing. So we think of ourselves as individuals, 685 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: meaning not divisible into different parts. But but in fact 686 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 1: who you are is a collection of different neural networks 687 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: that all have different drives. And this is why we 688 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: can argue with ourselves and custed ourselves in contract with ourselves, 689 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: and canjole ourselves who's talking with whom? Here? It's all us, 690 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: but it's different parts of us. So this is why 691 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: if I take some warm chocolate chip cookies out of 692 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: the oven and put them in front of you, part 693 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: of your brain says, don't need your get fat, and 694 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: part of brain says that looks like a high energy sort. 695 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: You know, I totally want to eat those cookies. And 696 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: part of your brain says, okay, how about I eat 697 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 1: the cookies, but I'll go to the gym tonight or whatever. 698 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: Like everything that we do in our lives, we have 699 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: arguments with ourselves about okay, what should I do here? 700 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: Part of me want to eat, this part of me 701 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: doesn't want to, And so what's going on? There are 702 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: all the different voices, the different political parties of this 703 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: neural parliament that we have running under the hood. And 704 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: this is the framework that I built in an incognito, 705 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: is that we've got this parliament and the way you 706 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,720 Speaker 1: go just depends on the majority vote in any given moment, 707 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: and so you're not one thing, You're a collection of voters. 708 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: All right. I have one one last question for you. Um, 709 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: if if you could go back in time and serve 710 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: as a science advisor on any past science fiction film, 711 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: what would it be. What would you most like to 712 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: go back and tweak or correct or make a little 713 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 1: more neuroscientifically interesting. Oh gosh, I have to think about 714 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 1: that off the top of my head. Um. Something like 715 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: the Matrix is terrific, because that's an example actually of 716 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: of a piece of fiction that got everybody talking about 717 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 1: this issue of how do you know? Like you know, 718 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: Descartes said, how would I know if I'm a brain 719 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: in a vat um and and I just think that 720 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: I'm feeling and hearing and seeing these different things, And 721 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: that that got upgraded that question by philosophers um at 722 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: different stages in history. But but essentially that's the question 723 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: is how do I how do I know? If there's 724 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of scientists that are zapping my brain with 725 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: electrodes that are making me feel that I'm talking with 726 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: you on zoom, and the weather is nice outside and 727 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 1: so on. But then the matrix, I think, singlehandedly upgraded 728 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: that question too. How do I know if I'm in 729 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,399 Speaker 1: the matrix if I am a simulation? And and as 730 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: things have gone on, especially in the last I don't 731 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: know ten years in Silicon Valley, it feels like people 732 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 1: talk about that question more and more seriously all the 733 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 1: time because you look at our computational capacity and you think, well, 734 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: it's it's really not that hard to make super sophisticated 735 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 1: VR in So what's this gonna look like in one twenty? 736 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you could make something that is absolutely convincing. 737 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: I mean, forget it. You can do that. It's just 738 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: like a convincing So the question is, how would you 739 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: know if you exist in a simulation or not? And 740 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,879 Speaker 1: what they cart concluded, by the way, is that there 741 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: is no way for him to know um, And this 742 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: is what led to his very famous declaration japon suit 743 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: I think therefore I am um, because what he meant 744 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: by that is, look, I don't know if I'm in 745 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: a simulation, but all I can tell you is that 746 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:43,280 Speaker 1: there's somebody thinking about this question. So I exist, whoever, whoever, 747 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: whatever situation I'm actually and it doesn't matter. There's some 748 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: I that exists, and that was actually a quite important 749 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: move in philosophy. But the point is, we have absolutely 750 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 1: no way of knowing if we are in a simulation 751 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: or not. And uh, we don't even have any good 752 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: hypotheses about how we would be able to find that out. 753 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: And by the way, it might not matter. I mean, 754 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: you know, if I told you with certainty that we 755 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,919 Speaker 1: are or are not, it would it might not change 756 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: anything about what you're doing. Um so, But so I 757 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,760 Speaker 1: would love to have been involved in in that movie 758 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: and and add in just a few neuroscience e uh 759 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: twists and sentences and questions there. Awesome, David, thanks again 760 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: for chatting with me today. Great, Thank you, Robert. This 761 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: is blessed all right, So there you have it again. 762 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: The book is Live Wired, The Inside Story of the 763 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,359 Speaker 1: Ever Changing Brain by David Eagleman. It's out now and 764 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: if you want to check out Neosensory, you can just 765 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: go to neo sensory dot com. If you'd like to 766 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 1: listen to other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 767 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 1: You can find us wherever you get your podcast and 768 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,399 Speaker 1: wherever that happens to be. We just asked that you rate, 769 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 1: review and subscribe. Thanks as always to Seth Nicholas Johnson 770 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: for his recording skills and editing skills and bringing all 771 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: this together especially short to turn around Today. And if 772 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: you would like to eat ellis about this interview, about 773 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: this episode, or about forthcoming episodes or past episodes, you 774 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: can do so at contact at Stuff to Blow your 775 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow your Mind is production 776 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 777 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 778 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows