1
00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:07,040
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

2
00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,200
Speaker 2: While the so called one Big Beautiful Bill got its

3
00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:12,960
Speaker 2: name from President Trump, many of its core ideas come

4
00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,560
Speaker 2: from Republican ideas that pre date Trump's terms in office.

5
00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,160
Speaker 2: One conservative leader getting credit for the tax and spending

6
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,320
Speaker 2: cuts is Grover nor Quist. A recent Salon column went

7
00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,360
Speaker 2: as far as calling him the father of the Big

8
00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,800
Speaker 2: Beautiful Bill. Now that the bill has made its way

9
00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,480
Speaker 2: from the Senate back to the House, we want to

10
00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 2: get his take in an exclusive interview. Grover Norquist is

11
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,199
Speaker 2: president and founder of Americans for Tax Reform, and he

12
00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,240
Speaker 2: joins us now from our bureau in Washington. Grover, thanks

13
00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,000
Speaker 2: for joining us today. Would you agree with that characterization

14
00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:41,720
Speaker 2: you as father of the Big Beautiful Bill.

15
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,599
Speaker 1: Well, I run Americans for Tax Reform, which works on

16
00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,080
Speaker 1: reducing taxes across the board, and we've obviously worked with

17
00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,160
Speaker 1: President Trump and President Reagan before him. What President Trump

18
00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,080
Speaker 1: has put forward in the bill back in twenty seventeen

19
00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,440
Speaker 1: and now really builds on the successes that Reagan had

20
00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,320
Speaker 1: taken marginal tax rates down. What Trump did was he

21
00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,360
Speaker 1: took the highest corporate rate in the world, the United States,

22
00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,959
Speaker 1: at thirty five percent and brought it down to twenty

23
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 1: one percent and has made it clear he plans to

24
00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,440
Speaker 1: go to fifteen. That has made America much more competitive.

25
00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,240
Speaker 1: You talk to the companies, they're raising more money through

26
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,800
Speaker 1: the corporate rate at twenty one percent than they would

27
00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,679
Speaker 1: have at thirty five percent because of growth. And that's

28
00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,480
Speaker 1: the model Reagan had on individual income taxes. But moving

29
00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,680
Speaker 1: to expensing as dramatically as Trump did, as the Republicans

30
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,520
Speaker 1: did in twenty seventeen, making that permanent. The big change

31
00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:40,880
Speaker 1: right now is that the good ideas in the twenty

32
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,120
Speaker 1: seventeen bill will now be made permanent. They're not going

33
00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,040
Speaker 1: to be negotiated every five or ten years. There won't

34
00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:51,880
Speaker 1: be spending requirements attached to them. Is this will help

35
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,040
Speaker 1: set the country on a path to serious growth because

36
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,000
Speaker 1: companies and investors know what the rules are, and the

37
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:00,400
Speaker 1: rules are good.

38
00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:01,720
Speaker 2: So it sets us up for growth. But at the

39
00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 2: same time, the legislation, with this four and a half

40
00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,800
Speaker 2: trillion dollars of tax cuts, also features one point two

41
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,560
Speaker 2: trillion dollars in spending cuts. That leaves us with a

42
00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,920
Speaker 2: pretty big gap. Is that getting the job done? As

43
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:14,079
Speaker 2: John Thune had said.

44
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,840
Speaker 1: Well, it certainly is we're moving both rate tax reduction

45
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,760
Speaker 1: as far as we can with the votes and spending

46
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,079
Speaker 1: reduction as far as we can with the votes. You

47
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,560
Speaker 1: can't do everything if you don't have the votes, and

48
00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,520
Speaker 1: so you move as you can. But most importantly, the

49
00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,880
Speaker 1: pro growth parts of this tax bill are estimated by

50
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,000
Speaker 1: Kevin Hassett, the economist at the White House, to take

51
00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,200
Speaker 1: us to three percent growth, and that increased annual growth

52
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,160
Speaker 1: over a decade would get you four trillion dollars more.

53
00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,320
Speaker 1: Those these are standard building on the CBO numbers over

54
00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,880
Speaker 1: years used to be two and a half billion. For

55
00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:54,560
Speaker 1: every one percent growth you got a one and a

56
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,080
Speaker 1: half percent plus inflation. You're looking at four trillion dollars

57
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,560
Speaker 1: in additional revenue from growth, not higher tax rates, but

58
00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,760
Speaker 1: economic growth. And we have to grow our way away

59
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,200
Speaker 1: from the debt and deficit as we did after World

60
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,480
Speaker 1: War two. World War two weight one hundred percent of GDP.

61
00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,480
Speaker 2: You are known for your objections to tax raises, of course,

62
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,480
Speaker 2: or pro tax cuts. You are also known for wanting

63
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,600
Speaker 2: to shrink the government down. But if you buy the

64
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,400
Speaker 2: argument that weighs fraud and abuse are the only categories

65
00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,079
Speaker 2: of spending being eliminated for medicaid. This bill actually expands

66
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,680
Speaker 2: the size of role of government in some ways right

67
00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,680
Speaker 2: because Washington is now determining winners and losers in chips

68
00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,600
Speaker 2: and certain forms of renewable energy. Even as it drops

69
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,840
Speaker 2: eedie credits for companies like Tesla. It also tells states

70
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,240
Speaker 2: what they can and cannot do with their own money

71
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,520
Speaker 2: in areas like healthcare. How do you square that well?

72
00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:48,040
Speaker 1: I would certainly support taking many of the legislation, much

73
00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:52,000
Speaker 1: of the legislation that deals with means tested programs welfare,

74
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,480
Speaker 1: and block granting those to the states. That we're moving

75
00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,520
Speaker 1: in that direction. I think it'll take more time to do.

76
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,760
Speaker 1: But if you say to the states, you got ten

77
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:05,240
Speaker 1: billion dollars last year for this project, you can have that,

78
00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,480
Speaker 1: but it's not going to be growing faster than inflation

79
00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,080
Speaker 1: over time. That really bends the cost curve down dramatically,

80
00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,400
Speaker 1: and we would have fifty states competing. As Clinton did.

81
00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,920
Speaker 1: He did this for welfare, he block granted it to

82
00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,480
Speaker 1: the states. Fifty states took different approaches. The average state

83
00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,400
Speaker 1: dropped its cost thirty percent. We should do that with

84
00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,320
Speaker 1: more welfare programs. Soon had a good idea, so there.

85
00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,800
Speaker 2: Was a procedural motion during the Senate debate that really

86
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,080
Speaker 2: surprised a lot of people. It failed to pass, but

87
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,320
Speaker 2: it got everyone's attention, and that is eighteen Republican senators

88
00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,560
Speaker 2: voting for an amendment to raise the top tax rate

89
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,800
Speaker 2: on the super wealthy. What was her reaction? Were you shocked?

90
00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:43,600
Speaker 2: Were you frustrated?

91
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,240
Speaker 1: Well, what happened is all the Democrats voted against it,

92
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,560
Speaker 1: so it was a meaningless vote.

93
00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,560
Speaker 2: It wasn't going to go on as well, but it

94
00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:53,960
Speaker 2: still was held anyway, and they're on the record for

95
00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:54,640
Speaker 2: voting for it.

96
00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:57,920
Speaker 1: Yes, I think it was unwise to do so because

97
00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,799
Speaker 1: it will be portrayed as an endorsement of higher tax

98
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,479
Speaker 1: What it was actually about was this, They're saying, we

99
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:08,040
Speaker 1: should have money for rural health care, and so what

100
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,560
Speaker 1: you saw was people with rural areas, we're told this

101
00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,839
Speaker 1: is a pro rural health care thing. It doesn't matter,

102
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,520
Speaker 1: it's just a gesture, and so they voted for it.

103
00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,240
Speaker 1: The good news is that most people said this is

104
00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,480
Speaker 1: not a serious idea. There were proposals about maybe we

105
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 1: should raise the top rate, and this was put forward

106
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 1: by some left wing Democrats and a couple of big

107
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,120
Speaker 1: spending Republicans. Luckily there aren't too many of them, and

108
00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,520
Speaker 1: that got shot down by the President dramatically as well

109
00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,080
Speaker 1: as the House and Senate leadership. Remember, eighty five percent

110
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,600
Speaker 1: of Republicans have signed the pledge never to raise taxes.

111
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,400
Speaker 1: That's not going to happen, Grover.

112
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,560
Speaker 2: But we know the President himself, though, has openly and

113
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,560
Speaker 2: repeatedly brought up the idea of raising taxes on the wealthy,

114
00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,360
Speaker 2: saying that he would be okay with it in order

115
00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,120
Speaker 2: to reduce the deaf sit And I know that you

116
00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,960
Speaker 2: are firmly opposed to his stance on that. I'm curious

117
00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,039
Speaker 2: what kind of conversations you've had with him on that front.

118
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,359
Speaker 1: Specifically, we did talk about it, and the next day

119
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,560
Speaker 1: he made the announcement. This was not happening, And there

120
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,400
Speaker 1: was a month long effort to try and push this

121
00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 1: idea of the President campaigned on no tax rate increases

122
00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,520
Speaker 1: on anyone, not upper income, middle income, lower income business income.

123
00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,359
Speaker 1: He said that at the State of the State address.

124
00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,480
Speaker 1: He said it again and again. His opponent, Kamala Harris,

125
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,599
Speaker 1: wanted to have the top rate stay higher. Kamala Harris

126
00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,440
Speaker 1: lost the election. Trump won the election, and Trump made

127
00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,120
Speaker 1: it clear that that was not going to happen.

128
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,640
Speaker 2: So you're saying you convinced Trump to change his mind.

129
00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,760
Speaker 1: No, no, Trump, Trump was never for that. Trump to

130
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:43,279
Speaker 1: discusses many issues. And remember the policy from House, Senate

131
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,680
Speaker 1: and White House was to say everything's on the table,

132
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,680
Speaker 1: everything's on the table. Everything they said that for two

133
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,599
Speaker 1: months was all you were supposed to say is everything's

134
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,080
Speaker 1: on the table. So don't panic. If anyone told you

135
00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,840
Speaker 1: something was on the table. The people who said that

136
00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:57,400
Speaker 1: would also call me on the phone and say, you

137
00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,200
Speaker 1: know what, this is never happening. We're not allowed that.

138
00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,040
Speaker 1: We have red lines until we get to the very end.

139
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,360
Speaker 1: So the good news as there was no support for

140
00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,760
Speaker 1: taking the top rate up, the President made it clear.

141
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Nonetheless, the present saying that is very significant because,

142
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,640
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, although the other vote was simply a gesture,

143
00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,080
Speaker 2: it is a meaningful gesture. Nonetheless, in the past, we

144
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,680
Speaker 2: know that you've been credited with rewriting the dogma of

145
00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,640
Speaker 2: the Republican Party, tax cut, smaller government, all of that.

146
00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,680
Speaker 2: Since twenty sixteen, though, the President has really changed Republican

147
00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,200
Speaker 2: Party and his base is different than the GOP of

148
00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,840
Speaker 2: the past. Right, it's more diverse, it's lower income, it's

149
00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,720
Speaker 2: more pro union. For instance, Do tax cuts make as

150
00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,640
Speaker 2: much sense for this group of voters? Prover?

151
00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely, Look, the Republicans are begetting more and more

152
00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,640
Speaker 1: of the middle class vote, of the blue collar vote

153
00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,239
Speaker 1: the base. Organized labor used to represent thirty five percent

154
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,760
Speaker 1: of Americans. Now it's ten percent, and half of those

155
00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,520
Speaker 1: are government workers. So organized labor bosses have nothing to

156
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,800
Speaker 1: say about what middle class union members or blue collar

157
00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,520
Speaker 1: workers actually feel. They don't represent most blue collar workers.

158
00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:11,320
Speaker 1: In construction, ten percent of construction is unionized and the

159
00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,160
Speaker 1: rest is not. So we are in a post union

160
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:19,120
Speaker 1: world for most of the industries. And so talk to

161
00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,360
Speaker 1: workers and to blue collar people about what they want.

162
00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,000
Speaker 1: They support lower taxes, not higher taxes. And you see

163
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,160
Speaker 1: this not just in Washington, but across the states. In

164
00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,720
Speaker 1: those red states, Republican states where Republicans are sweeping, getting

165
00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,640
Speaker 1: two thirds of both houses, carrying the middle class strongly.

166
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,520
Speaker 1: They are one phasing their income taxes to flat rates.

167
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,400
Speaker 2: Right, but they also want to see their services cut

168
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,000
Speaker 2: as well. Their Medicare and Medicaid.

169
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,120
Speaker 1: Well, they're two things. The changes on Medicaid are you

170
00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 1: have to be a citizen and you have to be working.

171
00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,839
Speaker 1: That does not scare any person who is an able

172
00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,920
Speaker 1: bodied adult who is working or looking for work. That's

173
00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:58,640
Speaker 1: not a challenge. I know the left has tried to

174
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,280
Speaker 1: misconstrue it. Since it's not going to happen, they can

175
00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,559
Speaker 1: talk about it. It's not going to scale scare anybody

176
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,280
Speaker 1: in the House of the Senate. It's not true. What

177
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,520
Speaker 1: we can do is say, both on food stamps and

178
00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,800
Speaker 1: on Medicare and Medicaid that states should have more a

179
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,960
Speaker 1: decision to make sure how to focus where that goes.

180
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,600
Speaker 1: And again, Bill Clinton did this. This is not a

181
00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,120
Speaker 1: solely Republican idea. Bill Clinton did it with aid to

182
00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,640
Speaker 1: families with dependent children and saved a lot of money

183
00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,040
Speaker 1: and did so without all the things the left said

184
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:31,839
Speaker 1: was going to have people starve in the streets. The

185
00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 1: left said. Bill Clinton looked them in the eye and said,

186
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,040
Speaker 1: you're lying, and the Republicans can do the same.

187
00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,240
Speaker 2: Okay, we got to leave it there. Grover Norquist as

188
00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,760
Speaker 2: President and figure of Americans for Tax Reform, joining us

189
00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:42,280
Speaker 2: from Washington,