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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production. I heart radio.

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Speaker 1: I actually kept a notebook of what I would not

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Speaker 1: do when I got to be the boss. When you

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Speaker 1: gave me the opportunity, you kind of looked at me

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Speaker 1: and said, I don't know what you can do, but

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Speaker 1: let's see. Oh my god, nothing could be better than that.

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Speaker 1: Just straight on challenge. We needed to be a rebellion.

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Speaker 1: We were taking back Nickelodeon for kids. I am Bob Pittman,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to this episode of Math and Magic Stories

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Speaker 1: from the Frontiers and Marketing, where we explore the combination

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Speaker 1: of analytics and creativity, Math and magic that's at the

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Speaker 1: heart of so many marketing and business successes. Today. We

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Speaker 1: have someone who led the birth of and transformed a

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Speaker 1: number of major TV networks. She was also one of

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Speaker 1: the first women to break through the men barrier in

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Speaker 1: the entertainment media business. Jerry Leiborne. Her mom was a creative,

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Speaker 1: her dad was in business. She clearly inherited both skills.

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Speaker 1: She started out on a track and architecture, moved education,

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Speaker 1: then advocacy for responsible TV for kids, produced kids TV

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Speaker 1: program and then joined Nickelodeon at its birth to do

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Speaker 1: the pro social Kids TV when it was a non

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Speaker 1: commercial service for preschoolers. Later, as the head of the network,

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Speaker 1: she transformed it to the first tweens TV network, added

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Speaker 1: advertising and changed American culture. She went on too Disney,

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Speaker 1: starting new networks, and finally started her own network, Oxygen.

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Speaker 1: She's been on corporate boards, served as a mentor to

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Speaker 1: countless women and executives. She lived through some to Redstones, takeover, Viacom,

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Speaker 1: Michael Ovit's short tenure at Disney, and partner with Oprah,

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Speaker 1: and her well known smile never left her face ever. Jerry, Welcome, Bob.

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Speaker 1: It's so great to be here. You and I are

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Speaker 1: old friends, so I know some stories even our best

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Speaker 1: researchers can't find. But before we get into that, I

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Speaker 1: want to do you in sixty seconds. Are you ready?

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Speaker 1: Do you prefer Rugrats or Doug Doug, a silver bouncing

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Speaker 1: ball or a green slime Green Slime cats or dogs

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Speaker 1: Dogs Philly or New York New York Copper Cone Cone,

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Speaker 1: The Dick Van Dyke Show, or Get Smart Dick Van Dyke,

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Speaker 1: Texting or calling calling l A or tell your ride

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Speaker 1: l A. Dennis the Menace or Mr Ed Mr Ed.

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Speaker 1: Of course, cable TV or the Internet. Oh boy, that's

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Speaker 1: a killer Internet Nickelodeon or Disney Channel Nickelodeon. Okay, it's

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Speaker 1: about to get harder. What's your favorite city? Montreal? Secret talent?

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Speaker 1: I can tie cherry stems in my mouth. I can

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Speaker 1: tie a knot. We'll take your word for it. I

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Speaker 1: can beat anybody at it except my daughter. Greatest motivator you.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's nice. Thank you, smartest person you know. Danny

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Speaker 1: hillis childhood hero Cat Moon, favorite novel, Plain Song by

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Speaker 1: Kent har Roof. Who would play you in a movie?

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Speaker 1: Lauren Mca? What would the title be of your memoir?

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Speaker 1: Raised my Kids, Proudest professional achievement, the Global Mentors Walk?

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Speaker 1: What did you want to be when you're growing up? Well?

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be a doctor, and then I discovered

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Speaker 1: that I have a condition that makes me faint if

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Speaker 1: anybody tells me about an illness, and that kind of

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Speaker 1: took that away. Okay, I promise we won't talk about

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Speaker 1: any illness. Is thank you? If you could have one superpower,

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Speaker 1: what would it be? World? Well, that's a good one. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Let's jump back in time to us as young managers

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Speaker 1: at what was then called wonder MX Satellite Entertainment Corporation,

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Speaker 1: then in our day was MTV Networks and now it's Viacom.

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Speaker 1: I had just moved up from the programming and marketing

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Speaker 1: guy who led the product at MTV to be each

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Speaker 1: chief operating officer of the company and turned my attention

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Speaker 1: to Nickelodeon, a commercial, free, pro schoolers TV network where

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Speaker 1: you were the key programmer. This was the mid eighties.

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Speaker 1: We were just launching targeted or as we called it,

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Speaker 1: the narrowcast TV networks, and you had a better idea

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Speaker 1: for Nickelodeon. You wanted to go for tweens, older kids, preteens,

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Speaker 1: and young teens. And by the way, one of my

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Speaker 1: best executive decisions ever was to listen to you and

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Speaker 1: invest in you and support that. Can you tell us

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Speaker 1: about that vision and where it came from, Well, it

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Speaker 1: came from being a teacher and a researcher with kids.

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Speaker 1: I love kids, I'm a natural kid advocate, and I

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Speaker 1: thought that television routinely looked down at kids and condescended

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Speaker 1: to them and gave them subpar creators. And I felt

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Speaker 1: like if you listened to kids and you treated them

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Speaker 1: as if they were really smart, you could do some

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Speaker 1: pretty interesting stuff. If you remember, we had no money

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Speaker 1: that we couldn't do what anybody else did. But I

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Speaker 1: would research everything that people said about kids TV, like

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Speaker 1: program only two boys, girls will watch anything, kids will

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Speaker 1: only watch animation. I'm such a contrarian. It's like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: if everybody else is going that direction, we're going to

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Speaker 1: go this direction. So it was very much like MTV,

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Speaker 1: because MTV was a contrarian network. Most of your shows

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Speaker 1: were Canadian. They were cheap, but they were breakthrough. At

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Speaker 1: one point, we had more Canadian content on Nickelodeon than

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Speaker 1: any network in Canada except Windsor Ontario. Nickelodeon. You think

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Speaker 1: of orange and green slime, Where did that green slime

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Speaker 1: come from? It came out of you can't do that

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Speaker 1: on television, which truly was I think the most important

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Speaker 1: show ever produced kids because it took kids side and

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Speaker 1: it used reverse psychology. It made kids feel better after

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Speaker 1: watching it. But the premise of it was we had

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Speaker 1: everyday kids and it was shot in Ottawa and so

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Speaker 1: these were everyday Canadian kids. And the producer, Roger Price,

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Speaker 1: wrote the show based on the personalities of the kids,

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Speaker 1: so he wasn't making them be anything they weren't. He

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Speaker 1: was just multiplying it, and they started to get kind

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Speaker 1: of uppity and kind of like Hollywood kids. So he

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Speaker 1: decided that he would start sliming. It was triggered by

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Speaker 1: them saying, I don't know which he would write in

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Speaker 1: the script for whoever needed to be put in their place.

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Speaker 1: It ended up backfiring on him because they loved being slimmed.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever been slimed? I was never slimed. I

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Speaker 1: think I avoided the sliming. I got slimed in the

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Speaker 1: office one day. It is wonderful. Well, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: take your word for that, because I'm not dying to

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Speaker 1: be slimed. So if anybody look so good on you,

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Speaker 1: don't slime me. So you were talking about MTV being contrarian.

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Speaker 1: We had just introduced the idea of a network identity

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Speaker 1: as opposed to a network delivering programs with the viewers

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Speaker 1: affinity attached to just the program, and we decided that

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Speaker 1: Nickelodeon could do the same thing. How did you define

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Speaker 1: that and how did you make the big move from

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Speaker 1: a somewhat corny silver bouncing ball for preschool or Nickelodeon

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Speaker 1: to the cool new Nick you created. Well. First of all,

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Speaker 1: I just have to say we never turned our back

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Speaker 1: on preschoolers. We had the best preschool programming ever, but

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Speaker 1: we had to be very careful to put it in

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Speaker 1: its own buckets, so we called it Nick Jr. Our

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Speaker 1: target was ten and tween, so that was a key

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Speaker 1: thing because we were known for being a baby channel.

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Speaker 1: I think you know the story of my son throwing

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Speaker 1: his Nickelodeon hat in the closet when he was five, sobbing,

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Speaker 1: and I said, what's the matter and he said, they say,

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Speaker 1: Nickelodeon's a baby channel. Honestly, my inspiration for Nickelodeon was Sam.

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Speaker 1: He was the coolest little five year old you ever saw,

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Speaker 1: and we just grew up with them. But I'd also

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Speaker 1: say that I was a student of what you were doing.

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Speaker 1: I saw how right it was that if you focus

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Speaker 1: on the audience and delight them and let the creative

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Speaker 1: community do their best work without man handling or woman

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Speaker 1: handling them, that you're going to get a really interesting result.

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Speaker 1: That's what we did. We created, just like you did,

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Speaker 1: a list of promises that we were the first network

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Speaker 1: for kids. We were completely on their side. We were

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Speaker 1: going to bring them the best creative we possibly could.

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Speaker 1: Frett Cybert, who had done the original on airlook from

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Speaker 1: TV and by the way, it has been on Math

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Speaker 1: and Magic when he was on talk some about helping

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Speaker 1: in that original creation of owning Orange. I remember when

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Speaker 1: you guys presented it to me. My reaction was, Orange,

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Speaker 1: that's it. From your vantage point, how did you get

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Speaker 1: from that bouncing ball to this very cool image and

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Speaker 1: attitude in that graphic look. Well, the bouncing ball was

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Speaker 1: created by an outside agency that the guy before me

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Speaker 1: had hired. It was very secretive. Nobody was a part

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Speaker 1: of it. They had no relationship to kids, and they

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Speaker 1: just thought, Okay, kids like this kind of stuff. No

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Speaker 1: kid can attach themselves to a silver ball. It just

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Speaker 1: isn't possible. And so Fred was incredibly collaborative, direct, honest.

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Speaker 1: He would say you're wrong, and I'm going to tell

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Speaker 1: you why. And I didn't get upset by that. It

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Speaker 1: was like, okay, tell me why. We learned together. I

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Speaker 1: think Fred feels like he was my partner, which he was.

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Speaker 1: We had a collaborative process. We had a wonderful guy

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Speaker 1: named Tom Corey and Tom Papa Cello, who were true geniuses.

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Speaker 1: We got delighted by anything. So creative agencies wanted to

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Speaker 1: work with us be because we would say, give us

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Speaker 1: ten ideas and we'll pick three, and we won't tell

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Speaker 1: you how to change them. We just set rules the

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Speaker 1: same way MTV. You were a container, you wanted people

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Speaker 1: to connect with it. One of the things we did

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Speaker 1: when we started taking advertising we would get buckets of mail.

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Speaker 1: They would be decorated on the outside with kids own shapes.

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Speaker 1: Because the idea behind Nickelodeon is it's like a kid's

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Speaker 1: mind constantly transforming. We knew that if we took an

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Speaker 1: envelope that was decorated on the outside, we could take

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Speaker 1: it into a sales meeting and just let them open

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Speaker 1: the letters. And it worked. It worked. But that was

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Speaker 1: a lesson from MTV. Get identification that kids can make

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Speaker 1: their wrong Before we get into the impact of Nickelodeon

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Speaker 1: and your networks. After that, let's go further back to

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Speaker 1: your childhood to get some perspective. Your mom had been

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Speaker 1: a writer, actor, and producer of soap operas. Your dab

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Speaker 1: was a stockbroker. Were they true to their stereotypes? Was

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Speaker 1: that a creative in a business person? Absolutely? And what

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Speaker 1: was the impact on you from having that range, there

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Speaker 1: was a third element. My mother was an advocate for kids,

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Speaker 1: so it was really like a trifecta. And also my

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Speaker 1: mother broke every rule, including how to open a milk cart,

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Speaker 1: so we had sloppy milk my entire childhood. She didn't

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Speaker 1: like to go the same way twice. I was the

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Speaker 1: middle daughter. My older sister was beautiful and perfect, my

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Speaker 1: younger sister was brilliant and charismatic. And there's me, eighteen

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Speaker 1: months apart, squeezed in and my dad when I was five,

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Speaker 1: said you're going to be my business daughter, and he

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Speaker 1: made me treasurer of the family. I took out bank

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Speaker 1: accounts for my irresponsible siblings. I went to business meetings

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Speaker 1: with my dad when I was eight nine. That's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: So you grew up in New Jersey. This was the

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Speaker 1: fifties and sixties. Paint the picture of those times. What

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Speaker 1: was the spot Cara? Schools were very science focused. I

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Speaker 1: went to public school. I had thirteen hours of biology.

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Speaker 1: As a freshman, I got the lowest grade in my class,

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Speaker 1: seven sixteen on my college boards. One year, we had

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Speaker 1: half session. I organized our clubhouse for the other half day.

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Speaker 1: I made people do debates and plays, and I was

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Speaker 1: so nerdy. I rode away to every foreign embassy and

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Speaker 1: my hobby was alphabetizing. That is nerdy, wonderfully nerdy. You

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Speaker 1: know it's da people don't realize. In those days we

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Speaker 1: didn't have the internet. There's no kids TV programming on TV.

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Speaker 1: I rode away to observatories and asked them for pictures

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Speaker 1: of planets with letters and stamps, and I got a

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Speaker 1: surprising number back. Did you pay much attention to TV

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Speaker 1: inter youth? I did. There wasn't that much that was

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Speaker 1: really oriented to kids. There were some local shows like

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Speaker 1: the Herb Briner show, I Love Top Long Cassidy. When

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Speaker 1: TV was installed, they had actually a guy who came

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Speaker 1: in plugged in our TV, turned it on and my

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Speaker 1: mother said, well, hello television, and the television said right

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Speaker 1: back to her, hello out there in television land. So,

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Speaker 1: as a three year old, I thought TV could see me.

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Speaker 1: I would take a bath, get dressed up and sit

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Speaker 1: in front of the television so hoppy could see me.

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Speaker 1: In your high school era, were you a sixties radical

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Speaker 1: or a mainstream suburban kid. I would say I was

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Speaker 1: a suburban kid. I didn't get radicalized. Till later. You've

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Speaker 1: been a long time and major supporter of Vassar. Why

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Speaker 1: did you go to Vassar? Well, my sister was there.

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Speaker 1: I was deciding between Cornell and Vassar, and ironically, I'd

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Speaker 1: always had really great relationships with boys in high school

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Speaker 1: and not that many close relationships with girls, and I

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Speaker 1: thought that if I was going to be a good,

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Speaker 1: effective human, I better learn how to have female friends.

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Speaker 1: The other thing about Vasser that was appealing to me

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Speaker 1: is Vasser is a contrarian place. Every student there is

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Speaker 1: taught to question everything and go to the source and

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Speaker 1: not to take other people's interpretations of things, and that

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Speaker 1: was sort of made for me. What did you get

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Speaker 1: out of that experience looking back all these years later, Well,

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Speaker 1: they actually taught me how to run things. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure that I was the best student in the world,

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Speaker 1: but I really was dedicated to helping the administration and

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Speaker 1: also the student body. They put me on the master

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Speaker 1: Planning committee that was studying how to turn Vasser from

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Speaker 1: a female college to a co ed college. And I

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Speaker 1: got to run committee meetings and have architects and you know,

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Speaker 1: it was just they took us seriously. What was the

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Speaker 1: big issue that Vasser was facing and moving from all

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Speaker 1: women to co ed well. At the time, the men's

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Speaker 1: schools were jealous of Harvard because Harvard had Radcliffe right

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Speaker 1: next door, so they felt to be competitive with Harvard,

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Speaker 1: they have to have their own girls. It was really

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Speaker 1: like Gale wanted to date us and marry us and

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Speaker 1: barry us. That's too harsh, but harsh. They just wanted

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Speaker 1: to be competitive in attracting the best and the brightest.

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Speaker 1: So that was going on at Princeton, Yale, Dartmouth, everywhere, Wesleyan, Williams,

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Speaker 1: and for us to be successful, we had to go

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Speaker 1: co educational. It's a very special place and it's always

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Speaker 1: been about access. First it was access to women. Then

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Speaker 1: it was access to men who wanted an equal co education.

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Speaker 1: Now it's access to diverse economic populations. So you graduated,

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Speaker 1: you worked briefly in an arctic actual firm, and then

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Speaker 1: as a school teacher, you got your masters from the

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Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania, pen and then you co founded the

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Speaker 1: Media Center for Children in nineteen four. What was that about.

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Speaker 1: It was about looking at kids and watching them look

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Speaker 1: at very avant garde film. We tried all kinds of

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Speaker 1: crazy National Film Board of Canada Short Films and we

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Speaker 1: got into the independent creative community in that way, so

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Speaker 1: Eli Noise and Drew Takahashi. We were just trying to

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Speaker 1: see what is true about what kids would be interested

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Speaker 1: in tolerate. We also worked with schools and libraries to

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Speaker 1: get kids to be interactive with media, so it was

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Speaker 1: really like the perfect background. Just hold on a second,

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Speaker 1: because we've got so much more to talk about. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a quick break. Welcome back to Math

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Speaker 1: and Magic. We're here with Jerry Leborne. You left to

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Speaker 1: join Nickelodeon in nine. What attracted you to Nickelodeon? In

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Speaker 1: that mission, we had a grant. Our mission was to

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Speaker 1: market the work of independent filmmakers to television, and Nickelodeon

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Speaker 1: was our first client and we were the first producers

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Speaker 1: that they ever hired. And we had this crazy show

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Speaker 1: video dream Theater where we would animate kids into their

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Speaker 1: own dreams using color, xerox or masks. Julie Tamar, who

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Speaker 1: went on to do The Lion King and lots of everything,

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Speaker 1: she was our maskmaker. It was just a really creative,

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Speaker 1: fabulous thing. By the way, horrible television kids dream about abandonment,

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Speaker 1: suffocation and it's just terrible, but I got hired. You

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Speaker 1: had a boss at Nickelodeon before you were the boss.

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Speaker 1: Where did you learn from that boss? Well, he was

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Speaker 1: a very conventional, top down manager. I don't think we

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Speaker 1: had a single team meeting the whole time he was

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Speaker 1: vice president of Nickelodeon. I was the first president, thank you.

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Speaker 1: He had low expectations. He sent all of our good

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Speaker 1: creative problems to old crony friends outside, and he didn't

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Speaker 1: encourage us to work together. I actually kept a notebook

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Speaker 1: of what I would not do when I got to

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Speaker 1: be the boss. So when you gave me the opportunity,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember this, but you kind

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Speaker 1: of looked at me and said, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: you can do, but let's see. It wasn't like, okay,

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Speaker 1: you're now the executive vice president of Nickelodeon. It was

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Speaker 1: just I know enough not to get rid of you.

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Speaker 1: Let's see what you can do. Oh my god, nothing

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Speaker 1: could be better than that, Just a straight on challenge.

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Speaker 1: I took the twenty people that were working for Nickelodeon

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Speaker 1: off to a conference room and we put all the

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Speaker 1: things we know about Nickelodeon here's what's not working, here's

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Speaker 1: what's working. And at the end of the day I

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Speaker 1: knew which people were going to be on the team

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Speaker 1: and which we're not. I fired seven people. We needed

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Speaker 1: to be a rebellion. We were taking back Nickelodeon for

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Speaker 1: Kids after the switch to add support in the replaunch

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Speaker 1: of Nickelodeon's The Twain Channel. You really struck gold. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about one what that felt

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Speaker 1: like and to why you think Nickelodeon caught on like that? Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, it helps to be the first, to

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Speaker 1: have really no competition, and to be true to your audience.

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Speaker 1: We literally did not put anything on the air that

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Speaker 1: hadn't been tested with kids, and we were adventuresome. We

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Speaker 1: had some big flops. I remember promising you The Moon

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Speaker 1: with Turkey TV was going to be comedy clips like

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Speaker 1: MTV for kids, and the day it arrived on Memorial

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Speaker 1: Day weekend five, it was even worse than Video Dream Theater.

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Speaker 1: My son, who at this point was ten, just started

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Speaker 1: to sob. This is horrible. You will never work in

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Speaker 1: TV again. I called everybody back to the office and

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Speaker 1: we spent six days re editing everything. You know. You

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Speaker 1: let me off the hook on that. Well, one thing

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Speaker 1: we all know is you don't come close to getting

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Speaker 1: it right. In fact, it's the big flops that we

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Speaker 1: got to take the chances. And we worked for a

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Speaker 1: guy named Steve Ross who ran Warner Communications and then

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Speaker 1: Time Warner. And Steve used to say, you know, bomb

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Speaker 1: around here, you a number of you fired for making

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Speaker 1: a mistake. You'll be fired for not making a mistake.

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Speaker 1: You're not making mistakes. Tells me you're not trying anything new.

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Speaker 1: And that was our lifeblood. But it was just so

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Speaker 1: much fun. And the other thing was if you were

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Speaker 1: working at Nickelodeon, you really had to let kids. I

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Speaker 1: had this trick question which I would ask any employee,

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Speaker 1: probably illegal, what were you like as a kid, And

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Speaker 1: they tell you everything, how they get along with their siblings,

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Speaker 1: how they're going to work in a team, and what

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Speaker 1: they care about. Let's talk a minute about how it

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Speaker 1: was to be a woman in this very big job,

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Speaker 1: in this very highly visible environment. Well, I had this boss,

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Speaker 1: Bob Pittman. The first day that I was invited into

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Speaker 1: the executive suite, there were only four of us, Tom Preston, you,

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Speaker 1: Bob Burgante and me. I made my husband quiz me

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Speaker 1: for four hours about sports metaphors. It was terrifying to me.

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Speaker 1: And I come in and the first sports metaphor that

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Speaker 1: I could possibly come up with I came up with,

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Speaker 1: and of course I used tennis metaphor in a basketball court.

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Speaker 1: And you looked at me and said, you can skip that.

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Speaker 1: We have you here for what you know, and I

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Speaker 1: don't care about sports. We want you to be you.

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Speaker 1: You have no idea how incredibly empowering that was, and

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Speaker 1: if men would do that, they would get such better results.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't that hard for me. You wanted me

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Speaker 1: to be the nerdy, caring, creative, loving head, and you

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Speaker 1: encouraged me to make mistakes, and you didn't hold grudges.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about you as a school teacher. We talked

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Speaker 1: back then about how that helped you as both a

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Speaker 1: programmer and as an executive, and by the way, was

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Speaker 1: in a big influence on your management style. Talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about that. So I went to Penn during

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Speaker 1: the days of open classrooms, which is a very short

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Speaker 1: lived American experiment. Open classroom if it's done well, and

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Speaker 1: it was done well in England is the greatest kind

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Speaker 1: of education. For a kid because it's oriented towards individualized instructions.

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Speaker 1: So your job as a teacher is to find out

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Speaker 1: what's great about you lift that up. It's not remediation

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Speaker 1: orient So that had huge impact on my management style.

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Speaker 1: Just to illustrate the success you had there, One of

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Speaker 1: my favorite stories, and I tell it often about you,

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Speaker 1: is we tried to buy the company in the management

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Speaker 1: buyout and the TV networks which included Nickelodeon and MTV,

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Speaker 1: and it was sad and Viacom bought us, and this

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Speaker 1: was pre sunder Redstone Viacom. They got us to do

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Speaker 1: this for a rigorous five year plan each year, and

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Speaker 1: I remember the last one I did five years later.

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Speaker 1: I'm in my office. I get an envelope. Open up

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Speaker 1: the envelope. It's a xerox copy of the fifth year

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Speaker 1: of the Nick budget page and it was a handwritten

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Speaker 1: note from you on it that said, what you didn't believe?

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Speaker 1: That was it? Of course, the point was you had

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Speaker 1: crushed the five your number. I still remember walking out

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Speaker 1: of the office of my tail between my legs, being

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Speaker 1: beaten up about how could I put that dream down there?

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00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: It was on fire. You and Tom Preston actually were

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Speaker 1: the reasons some the red Stone and Tom Dooley bought Viacom.

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Speaker 1: I was instrumental in setting up a meeting with you

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Speaker 1: and Tom for Sumner and you had a golden career there.

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Speaker 1: You became vice chair of MTV Networks as well. You

390
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Speaker 1: couldn't have been bigger, more important, and more successful. And

391
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Speaker 1: then you left to go to Disney take over their

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Speaker 1: cable networks and even fix up the Disney Channel, which

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Speaker 1: have been your big competition, or at least they tried

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Speaker 1: to be. Why did you leave? Well, I I could

395
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Speaker 1: see some bad times ahead. I loved Nickelodeon. Leaving was

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Speaker 1: probably the hardest thing. I felt like it was, am

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Speaker 1: I going to be anybody tomorrow? When I'm not, I

398
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Speaker 1: don't have Nickelodeon. And by the way, I think you

399
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Speaker 1: and I shared that I had that fear of MTV.

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Speaker 1: You had fear of Nickelodeon. It was so much us,

401
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: We loved, the people we worked with was just the greatest, really,

402
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: but the structure of Viacom and MTV Networks. By this point,

403
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Speaker 1: Nickelodeon was making more money than MTV and there was

404
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Speaker 1: lots of messy stuff around v H one, and I

405
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Speaker 1: just felt like it was going to be hard for

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Speaker 1: Nickelodeon to really do what I wanted it to do.

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Speaker 1: The mission of Nickelodeon was to connect with kids and

408
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Speaker 1: connect kids with their world through entertainment. Now if there

409
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: isn't a better Internet mission statement, we wrote that I

410
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: look back, if HEIGHT stayed, would we have been successful

411
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Speaker 1: in doing that? But I like to grow, I like

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Speaker 1: to try things, and I felt like I was starting

413
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: to get resistance the Viacom management could not understand why

414
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Speaker 1: I wanted to have a different kind of participation. I

415
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: wanted to be participating in the growth of Nickelodeon because

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Speaker 1: when we started, Nickelodeon was worth less than nothing, and

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Speaker 1: when I left it was between eight and ten billion dollars,

418
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: which is more than Viacom is today. And so it's

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Speaker 1: a serious business concern. So you go to Disney, you

420
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: sign a four year contract, you really do improve the

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Speaker 1: product there, you bring in some great people, you really

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Speaker 1: revamp it, and then you left. You left two years

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Speaker 1: later to start Oxygen. Give me some insights there. I

424
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Speaker 1: had been courted by Iger, Eisner and Ovits in their

425
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: separate buckets, so when they all came together who do

426
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: we want to get? Jerry Leborne. I'd only had really

427
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: one big job, and it felt pretty good to want

428
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 1: to be wanted, as opposed to the pushback that you

429
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: get when you're highly successful in a company and their

430
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: sibling rivalry. And I felt like if I didn't take

431
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: a chance on myself. I always was comfortable taking a

432
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: chance for Nickelodeon and my staff, but how about me.

433
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: I didn't sign a long term contract that had no outs.

434
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: I had the right to quit for no reason. I

435
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: got to Disney. I met a lot of fabulous people.

436
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: I made lifetime friendships. Danny hillis who is the smartest

437
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: man in the world. We had the imagineers inventing telefusion

438
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: and convergence, and it was exciting. But it wasn't my

439
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: crusader kind of thing. They really wanted me to fix things,

440
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: and they didn't really want to invest in the things

441
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: they talked about, so I waited. I got two years

442
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: worth of options. I went to Michael Eisner and said,

443
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: I'm going to start at a new company. Do you

444
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: want to be an investor? And he said yes, and

445
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: I left. You joined Oprah and others. I want to

446
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: get to that in a minute. But I want to

447
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: stop down for just a few minutes here and download

448
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 1: some of what you learned from all that, because that's

449
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: a remarkable span of opportunities situations. First, talk about brands,

450
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: What are they? How do you think about what a

451
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 1: brand is and how do you build them? I believe

452
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: you don't have a brand unless your audience tells you

453
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: you have a brand. It's a relationship with your audience.

454
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: When we took over the Disney Channel, I brought Ann

455
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: Sweeney and and Rich Ross. We looked at what was

456
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: happening with the Disney Channel. All it was was taking

457
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: the equity of Disney. There was no equity around the

458
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: Disney Channel. There was no relationship with the audience. All

459
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: they wanted to do is a pay channel. All they

460
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: wanted to do is make sure somebody bought it. Month

461
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: after month in the seven pm slot, one they'd have

462
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: an Eisenhower documentary and the next night they'd have Dumbo.

463
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,479
Speaker 1: But the kids were dying. That was a big, big moment,

464
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: So we tried to create an identity for the Disney Channel.

465
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: We took the old lessons and we created an identity

466
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: and then ate Nickelodeon's lunch. Let's talk about building companies,

467
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: building teams. What kind of culture do you need to

468
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: have a building situation? Well, you need different thinkers at

469
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: the table. You need people who are strategic, you need

470
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: people who are creative, you need people who are technical,

471
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: and you need to make sure that they feel comfortable

472
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: giving voice to their point of view and that in fact,

473
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,719
Speaker 1: the team depends on them. Debbie BC was of the

474
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: Fred Cyberg school. You're wrong, and I'm going to tell

475
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: you why that's the best thing for a dreamer like

476
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 1: me to have. You couldn't have a better relationship up

477
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: We all had this philosophy that our responsibility was to

478
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: make sure everybody at the table was getting an a.

479
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: We had a program called the PIT program Presidents in Training,

480
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: So everybody at my executive team were presidents in training.

481
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: And I promised them, if you come in here and

482
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: look at our problems from up here, we will all

483
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: learn to be presidents together, and you won't all be

484
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: president of Nickelodeon, but you'll get to be president of something.

485
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: And many of them did. They didn't let me get

486
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: some personal insights here. One of your key relationships has

487
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: been probably for I think all of your adult life

488
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: has been your partnership with your husband kit wildly creative. Funny.

489
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: You both worked sometimes together, certainly in related fields. How

490
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: did you actually work like that and never get at

491
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: each other's throats. We did get at each other's throats

492
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: because it, you know, but it was around taxes or

493
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: something like that. He wanted to do it thoroughly, and

494
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: I had an attitude that it was worth four hours

495
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: a year to do our taxes and not endlessly crossing

496
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: teas and dotting eyes. So I took over the business

497
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: aspects of our life, and he really was a creative force.

498
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: He backed me up on most of the big creative choices,

499
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: and I knew that I wasn't going to go wrong.

500
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: We laugh a lot. Even when he worked on shows

501
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: for Neck or Oxygen, he never worked for me. One

502
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: of the reasons that we did so well with independent

503
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: producers was because I slept with the one. He would

504
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: keep reminding me how to not be a bad executive.

505
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: Your two kids are in the business, is that a surprise? Honestly?

506
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: Growing up in our house where every dinner conversation was

507
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: about what should we name this show? Or does this work?

508
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: We had a big house in Montclair, and in the

509
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: early years, you know, we had no budgets. Most of

510
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: Turkey TV was shot at our house in Montclair, so

511
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 1: my kids had to do things like throw frogs out

512
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: of the window and Sam would catch them. You know,

513
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: it just was too much fun. How could you be

514
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: a banker after that? That? So let's go back to Oxygen.

515
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: You talked about Nickelodeon and how you fit into the

516
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: Viacom world. You talked about Disney and these big names

517
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,479
Speaker 1: and big executives there, and you got Oxygen. Although it's

518
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: your network, your partners were all world class creators, all

519
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: had vision. All it worked hard. How did you harness that? Well?

520
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: It probably was the hardest thing I ever did, But

521
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: there was a lot of goodwill towards Oxygen. The first

522
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: partner we had was Marcy Carcy and Carcy Werner. Marcy

523
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: is just about the most fantastic creative person you can

524
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: ever be a partner with. One day we thought, how

525
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: could we make this better? Is there anybody who could

526
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: bring us marketing magic? And we said Oprah. We both

527
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: knew her. We called her up, we flew out, we

528
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: had lunch. Oprah had me fly back and lie on

529
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: a couch with her for seven hours, talking about my past.

530
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: She asked me the same questions you're asking me now,

531
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,239
Speaker 1: and she decided she was gonna come in with us.

532
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: She'd always wanted to have a cable network, but she

533
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: had a staff that was very protective of her, so

534
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: we didn't always get as much as we wanted. Everybody

535
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: wants everything from Ope. She's truly a miraculous person. So

536
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: you sold Oxygen to NBC in two thousand and seven,

537
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: great timing, right before the Great Recession. I was not

538
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: in favor of selling Oxygen. You know the world of

539
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: bankers better than I do. But at first they told us,

540
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: don't do any TV. It's all about the Internet. Then

541
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: the bubble happened, com bust, the dot com bust, and

542
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: so we had to trim down the Internet and focus

543
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: all on TV. We started making that profitable, and my

544
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: Christmas bonus the year we got profitable was that I

545
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: could go back into the Internet. And so we figured

546
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: out that women make all these visual decisions all the time.

547
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: We wanted to recreate that experience of ripping out of

548
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: a magazine, and we created this whole collage system that

549
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: was just genius called Ripped dot com and it was

550
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: the precursor to Pinterest. So when we sold Oxygen, not

551
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: on my brilliant timing, but on the pressure of our investors.

552
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: I didn't have the prescience to take Ripped with me.

553
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: That's one of your few regrets. Yeah, you've been on

554
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 1: the board of a number of companies, including Electronic Arts,

555
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: video game. I took your seat, you took my seat,

556
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: and you're on J. C. Penny the retailer, and a

557
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: lot in between. What do you add as a board member? Well,

558
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: I add the relationship piece, and I have a marketing orientation,

559
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: and I also question why we do something the way

560
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: we do it. Also just being a woman with a

561
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: different way of thinking. Okay, time to get judge. What

562
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: do you think of the state of children's TV today?

563
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 1: It's very scary to me. I'm thrilled that Brian Robbins

564
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: has been appointed the head of Nickelodeon because he's a producer.

565
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: He produced all that for us. He's got a creative core,

566
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: which I think is what really differentiated us at MTV Networks.

567
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: We worshiped creative. We were not just trying to trim

568
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: every cost. We were trying to get the best out

569
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: of people. Well, in a matter of fact, we often

570
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: talked about that if the consumers love it, we'll figure

571
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: out how to make money on it, right exactly, don't

572
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: reverse that order. Right. The thing that concerns me the

573
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: most right now is that YouTube has become the number

574
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: one kids brand and there's absolutely no concern on the

575
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: part of people who are putting YouTube on the air

576
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: for kids. What do you think about cell phones always

577
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: on media, social, etcetera, and impact on kids. I think

578
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: it's awful. I often get asked by groups of women

579
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,479
Speaker 1: what can we do, and I said, well, the first

580
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: thing you can do is when you get home, put

581
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: your phone in your purse and zipp it and never

582
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: take it out in front of your kids. But I

583
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: have a small tech company that's creating a mind craft

584
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: like game called Chicken c h k N that is

585
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: about getting kids to create creatures out of little blocks

586
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: that have artificial intelligence. It's very fresh and original, but

587
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: it's engaging. How do we get kids to be creative

588
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: and share their creativity? So I think there are things

589
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: that can be done. I mean, it's a completely turned

590
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: upside down marketplace. I think podcasting could be great for kids.

591
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: I would love to get into that business. Well, you're

592
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: at the right place, and you're on the podcast. Let's

593
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: get judge you a little bit about the state of

594
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: the cable networks and TV networks. How do you view it.

595
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: I don't think we ever dreamed that the programmers would

596
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: have so much clout that they would be able to

597
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: basically ruin the industry by charging too much. If you

598
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: talk to cable operators, all their growth comes from broadband

599
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: and supplying small businesses with high speed internet video is

600
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: a pain in the neck. Very different when you and

601
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 1: I were there and we worshiped at the feet of

602
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: the cable lover right what we did for providing choice

603
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: and a reasonable economics. We were never greedy. We all flourished,

604
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: and then everybody got greedy. It feels to me like

605
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: this over the top of stuff is toppling the formula

606
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: we had talk about just a second on sort of

607
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: state of the Internet. You were very early in the Internet,

608
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: and you were right when you started Oxygen. TV networks

609
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: are saying Internet, who needs that? And you were saying,

610
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: I'm embracing the Internet. Did it turn out the way

611
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: expected it too? I didn't know what I expected because

612
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: I knew it was an order of magnitude of something

613
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: that I had never seen. But I think if I

614
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: pull out old pitches for old ideas, we might be

615
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: pretty close to where it went the downfall of retail.

616
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: I didn't really see that this happening so fast. So

617
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: time for some advice. What advice would you give to

618
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: someone trying to follow in your footsteps that wants to

619
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: be the next Jerry Laborn? I'd say, be serious in

620
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: learning and fun in working. What advice would you give

621
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: your twenty one year old self if you could go

622
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: back and do that study how to do management buyout effectively?

623
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: We end each episode where we begin Math and Magic

624
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: with a shout out to the standouts and the analytical

625
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: side of marketing and business, the math people, and also

626
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: those from the creative side, which we call the magicians.

627
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: Who would be your choice for the mathematician Danny Hillis.

628
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: For the magician, I would say, Steve Jobs. Jerry, you

629
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: have bridged that math and magic world very well for

630
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: your whole career. You've helped so many people along the way.

631
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: You've spent so much time giving to others, and you

632
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: still do. You're one of the greats of media. Thanks

633
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: for being here. What a pleasure. There are a few

634
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: things I picked up in my conversation with Jerry. One.

635
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: To build a successful team like Jerry did at Nickelodeon,

636
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: you need people with differing talents who aren't afraid to

637
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 1: share their unique insights or defend their point of view

638
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: for the rest of the team, who like creatives to

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Speaker 1: be creative. If you give people the room to make

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Speaker 1: mistakes like Jerry did throughout her career, sooner or later,

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Speaker 1: they'll make something terrific. Three. Ask your audience's opinion and

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Speaker 1: trust their answers, even if your audience is your own family.

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Speaker 1: When Jerry's young son didn't like a Nickelodeon show, she

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Speaker 1: would often rework him, sometimes KILLO. Thanks for listening. I'm

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Speaker 1: Bob Pittman. That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for listening to Math and Magic, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. This show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special

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Speaker 1: thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent,

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Speaker 1: which is no small feat. Nikki Eatore for pulling research,

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Speaker 1: Bill Plaux, and Michael Asar for their recording help. Our

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Speaker 1: editor Ryan Murdoch and of course Gail Raoul, Eric Angel,

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Speaker 1: Noel Mango and everyone who helped bring this show to

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Speaker 1: your ears. Until next time,