WEBVTT - Mueller Said to Consider Delaying Obstruction Charges (Audio)

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com Slash podcasts. The Washington Post

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<v Speaker 1>and New York Times have reported that President Trump wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to fire Robert Muller in June, something that Democratic Senator

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<v Speaker 1>Richard Bloomhal called stunning. This report shows there's now a

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<v Speaker 1>credible case of stution of justice. But even if Mueller

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<v Speaker 1>has an obstruction case, Bloomberg News is now reporting that

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<v Speaker 1>he may put any charges on hold as he finishes

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<v Speaker 1>other key parts of his probe indo Russian election meddling.

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<v Speaker 1>Kevin White Law, Bloomberg News Deputy Managing editor, stops in

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<v Speaker 1>for more on this story in our Bloomberg studios in

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<v Speaker 1>Washington and Kevin, this was a nice scoop by our team.

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<v Speaker 1>What does it say, Well, that's exactly right. We do

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<v Speaker 1>know that. Um, you know, we're Muller's in the final

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<v Speaker 1>stages of the obstruction part of his probe. He's got

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of key outstanding interviews um that he's uh,

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<v Speaker 1>that that he might want to pursue. We understand his

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<v Speaker 1>negotiations with President Trump's lawyers, but interview with the president. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>there's another witness to a number of key events that

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<v Speaker 1>Mueller's studying who has yet to be interviewed as far

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<v Speaker 1>as we know, and that's Donald Trump Jr. Uh. Those

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<v Speaker 1>are two high profile interviews. But sort of the sequencing

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<v Speaker 1>of how you sort of hold those interviews and close

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<v Speaker 1>out a portion of this probe um is very is

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<v Speaker 1>a very complicated decision for him, given that there's other

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<v Speaker 1>aspects of the probe that are going to take weeks

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<v Speaker 1>or months to to complete. And so there's a growing

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<v Speaker 1>sense and growing belief that there's a chance Muller could

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<v Speaker 1>even if he decides to essentially conduct the interviews and

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<v Speaker 1>effectively wrap up the probe, he may essentially keep his

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<v Speaker 1>findings withhold his findings for a while while he then

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<v Speaker 1>turns its attention to other elements of the probe, and

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<v Speaker 1>and and and and goes from there. Bloomberg News is

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<v Speaker 1>reporting that also during into this is that witnesses may

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<v Speaker 1>become less cooperative in other parts of the probe, and

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<v Speaker 1>the president might make a move if he if if

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<v Speaker 1>that comes out about about obstruction to shut it down,

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<v Speaker 1>well that's right. You have the problem where you um,

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<v Speaker 1>if to the degree that Mueller makes charges, then that

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<v Speaker 1>potentially provokes one set of conflicts. If he effectively clears

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<v Speaker 1>um anybody on this side of it, then that's suddenly

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<v Speaker 1>they canna say, hey, it's time to wrap up, let's go.

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<v Speaker 1>And and we know, we know for various reasons, he's

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<v Speaker 1>got weeks and months of work on a number of

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<v Speaker 1>different areas in the probe, so um he's got all

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<v Speaker 1>of that hanging over his head, along with obviously the

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<v Speaker 1>sort of more existential threat of the President deciding to

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<v Speaker 1>try to find a way to to simply fire him

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<v Speaker 1>if he gets too close. So there are a number

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<v Speaker 1>of of those calculations that facts or in. We do know.

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<v Speaker 1>There are several key episodes that that Muller and his

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<v Speaker 1>team are focusing on for just sort of trying to

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<v Speaker 1>figure out whether there was indeed any effort to obst justice,

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<v Speaker 1>and those include a couple of key meetings. One was

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<v Speaker 1>discussed the decision to fire uh FBI director James call

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<v Speaker 1>me uh The other was a discussion aboard Air Force

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<v Speaker 1>one over the UH response to reports about a meeting

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<v Speaker 1>organized at Trump Tower that included Trump Junior and Jared Kushner,

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<v Speaker 1>the president's son in law. So walk us through the

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<v Speaker 1>timing on all of this, UH, keeping in mind that

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<v Speaker 1>there's something happening, UH this November. What is it? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>some kind of election. Yeah, I mean, we don't really

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<v Speaker 1>have a lot of of information on the timing. UM.

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<v Speaker 1>Mueller doesn't have a deadline per se, other than maybe

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<v Speaker 1>a political one. So he's made it clear through his

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<v Speaker 1>methodical approach so far that he's going to take the

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<v Speaker 1>investigation wherever he thinks it needs to go. But at

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<v Speaker 1>the same time, I don't think he's looking for ways

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<v Speaker 1>to to stretch it out. So UM, he's clearly feeling

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<v Speaker 1>pressure to keep moving. We've seen a succession of indictments

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<v Speaker 1>and plea deals, including an indictment of thirteen Russians for

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<v Speaker 1>social media activity during the election. We are expecting at

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<v Speaker 1>some point there to be another set of indictments of

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<v Speaker 1>another indictment of a set of Russians for hacking. We

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<v Speaker 1>haven't seen that yet, We're we have reason to believe

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<v Speaker 1>that that's in the works. UM. And so that's one

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<v Speaker 1>of the next things we're looking for that could effectively

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<v Speaker 1>come at any time. And there's still other aspects of

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<v Speaker 1>the probe that we've had a lot less visibility into,

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<v Speaker 1>including questions of how deep, if at all, uh MALLA

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<v Speaker 1>really is going into the finances of either the President

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<v Speaker 1>Trump Org or Jared Kushner's company. So there's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of questions we still don't know. Even as we we

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<v Speaker 1>we have some some new insight into some of the

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<v Speaker 1>decision making and uh processes that are that are going

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<v Speaker 1>on right now. So Maller has to prove corrupt intent

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<v Speaker 1>on Trump's part for the obstruction part of the case,

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<v Speaker 1>if he intends to go after him for obstruction, and

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<v Speaker 1>could he be putting the obstruction case on hold because

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<v Speaker 1>he wants to talk to Trump and history and Trump's

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<v Speaker 1>attorneys have been fighting that tooth and nail. Well, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's interesting the you know, as we understand it,

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<v Speaker 1>Trump's legal team has actually been in negotiations since late

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<v Speaker 1>last year UM negotiations that we're told have actually gone

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<v Speaker 1>on relatively smoothly and constructively. But what's unclear though is

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<v Speaker 1>where the which side the delays on UM there does

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<v Speaker 1>seem to have been a flurry of activity, uh with

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<v Speaker 1>with Mueller that uh as in otherwids, just his investigation continuing.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, you saw Steve Bannon meet with Mueller

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<v Speaker 1>a few weeks ago. You know, the President is going

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<v Speaker 1>to be essentially the last or one of the last

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<v Speaker 1>interviews that Mueller would want to have when it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to an obstruction case. So he wants to interview absolutely everybody.

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<v Speaker 1>And it feels like there's a couple more alley ways

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<v Speaker 1>and side doors that that Mueller wanted to go down

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<v Speaker 1>before he gets that interview. There is a very good

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<v Speaker 1>question though as to whether or not as to when

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<v Speaker 1>that interview would actually happen, and if if there is

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<v Speaker 1>a delay, Um, you know, a lot of he said,

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<v Speaker 1>she said over over which side might be responsible for it. Also,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to remember that there are these investigations going

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<v Speaker 1>on on the hill. Uh. The House Intelligence Committee investigation

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<v Speaker 1>has obviously kind of you know, broken down to a

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<v Speaker 1>part into a partisan mass. But where does the Senate

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<v Speaker 1>Intelligence Committee investigation stand. Well, that's still basically the there's

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<v Speaker 1>two investigations in the Senate. That's the truly sort of

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<v Speaker 1>the most serious of them, the most bipartisan of them.

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<v Speaker 1>That's ongoing. The Judiciary Panel is continuing to look at

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<v Speaker 1>certain aspects with elements and glimpses of bipartisan work, But

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<v Speaker 1>the Senate Intelligence Panel is where you are seeing a

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<v Speaker 1>much fuller effort to try to be bipartisan. Having said that,

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<v Speaker 1>there are disputes over what public hearings might still be

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<v Speaker 1>held before this thing is wrapped up, and that seems

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<v Speaker 1>to be one of the biggest outstanding questions that they

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<v Speaker 1>have as to whether or not that will have a

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<v Speaker 1>bipartisan conclusion to it. But in the meantime, they are

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<v Speaker 1>aiming to release an interim report on election security ahead

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<v Speaker 1>of the mid terms. Uh, that's something that we could

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<v Speaker 1>tell that obviously Mueller was was interested in given the

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<v Speaker 1>indictment of the social media uh, the Russians doing the

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<v Speaker 1>social media attacks. The Senate Intelligence Committee also has a

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<v Speaker 1>has a lot of interest in this topic. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>a report we could see in the coming days or weeks. Kevin,

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<v Speaker 1>it seems as if Mueller is going into different areas.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that because we're just learning about those areas or

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<v Speaker 1>he is actually expanding the investigation. That's a very very

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<v Speaker 1>good question, and and um, you know, I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>probably a little bit of both. This is a this

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<v Speaker 1>is investigations very complex, and because the Mueller team is

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<v Speaker 1>basically as tight as basically any of these organisms as

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<v Speaker 1>any probe like this has ever been, leaks are very

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<v Speaker 1>selective and tend to come, um in some cases from

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<v Speaker 1>from the witnesses, and some of those might be self

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<v Speaker 1>serving or or or carrying out a grudge or whatever,

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<v Speaker 1>and others are legitimately real, real information. So sorting through

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<v Speaker 1>what's real what's not is a challenge. Sorting through what's

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<v Speaker 1>new and what's not as a challenge. Um, But they're

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<v Speaker 1>du seemed to be some areas that have come to

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<v Speaker 1>light in recent weeks or months that do seem to

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<v Speaker 1>be genuinely new to the probe. And I think everyone's

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<v Speaker 1>still trying to figure out exactly what this means and

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<v Speaker 1>how seriously Muller's taking these things. I mean, remember, i'd

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<v Speaker 1>caution just because he asked to witness about a particular

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<v Speaker 1>topic doesn't mean he's fully investigating that topic. These are

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<v Speaker 1>hours and hours of interviews he's doing with each witness,

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<v Speaker 1>For he seems like a serious guy. Well that's right,

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<v Speaker 1>but he's gonna be asking a lot of questions, and

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<v Speaker 1>some of the things are the ones he's gonna be targeting,

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<v Speaker 1>and others are just gonna be testing the waters. And

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<v Speaker 1>it's very hard to start through all of that. From

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<v Speaker 1>from the outside. Kevin Whitelaw Bloomberg News Deputy Managing Editors,

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Foreign nations and US customers harmed by President Trump.

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<v Speaker 1>Steel and aluminum terrorist face a slow legal fight challenging

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<v Speaker 1>the tariffs, and the role of US courts in the

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<v Speaker 1>global dispute is likely to be limited. Joining me is

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<v Speaker 1>Matt Gold, adjunct Professor of law Fordham University and former

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<v Speaker 1>Deputy Assistant US Trade Representsitive. Matt, countries can complain to

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<v Speaker 1>the World Trade Organization, but that is less like litigation

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<v Speaker 1>and more like a dispute settlement process. Explain the process.

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<v Speaker 1>If a foreign country claims against makes a claim against

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<v Speaker 1>the US, there sure be glad to um the process.

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<v Speaker 1>That's three basic stages. The first stage is what's known

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<v Speaker 1>as consultations. It's like an opportunity to settle the case

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<v Speaker 1>before your info litigation itself. The parties are required to

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<v Speaker 1>engage in consultations. But if consultations are going nowhere within

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<v Speaker 1>a relatively short period of time, the countries that brought

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<v Speaker 1>the case can call them to an end and move

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<v Speaker 1>on to the next stage. UM. The next stage is

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<v Speaker 1>a panel UM, a three member panel UH, which is

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<v Speaker 1>essentially litigating before three judge court. The panelists are experts,

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<v Speaker 1>they're from countries that are not HUM, that don't have

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<v Speaker 1>an interest in the dispute UM and that litigation can

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<v Speaker 1>take one to two years UM or a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>more or less depending on the complexity of the case.

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<v Speaker 1>And the third stage is appealing the panel decision to

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<v Speaker 1>the W two appellate Body, which for a major case

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<v Speaker 1>like this is almost a certainty. So in the end,

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<v Speaker 1>the w t O can tell a country to stop

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<v Speaker 1>violating the rules it. But does it have any real

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<v Speaker 1>power or is it world perception at work? Oh? No,

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<v Speaker 1>it has quite real power. It's the one international court

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<v Speaker 1>that has real power to enforce international law, the law

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<v Speaker 1>that imparts rights and obligations to government UM. The power

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<v Speaker 1>it has is to authorize retaliation UM, to authorize the

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<v Speaker 1>country UH if if other countries demonstrate, for example, the

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<v Speaker 1>United States has violated w t O rules. At the

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<v Speaker 1>end of the process, the w t pelet body UM

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<v Speaker 1>will first the appelate body rules that the US has

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<v Speaker 1>violated the W two agreements and explains why and how

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<v Speaker 1>it gives the United States a chance to bring itself

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<v Speaker 1>into compliance. But then the fourth and last day each

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<v Speaker 1>of the United States fails to change. What it's doing

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<v Speaker 1>is to authorize retaliation. And there's really a fourth procedure

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<v Speaker 1>by which the countries that took us to court proposed

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<v Speaker 1>to be a pallepody what kind of retaliation they want

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<v Speaker 1>to engage in. It will be some kind of trade

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<v Speaker 1>barriers against US goods or services going to their countries UH,

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<v Speaker 1>and then the w A palipody will authorite specific UH

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<v Speaker 1>such trade barriers, specific retaliation. The EU has already threatened

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<v Speaker 1>to retaliate against the US, might it do that before

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<v Speaker 1>going to the w t O. Well, there's always a

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<v Speaker 1>risk of that UM that would really send us into

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<v Speaker 1>a downward spiral. The whole point of the w A

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<v Speaker 1>dispute resolution processes to give countries a legal mechanism for

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<v Speaker 1>retaliation so that we don't run into you violated the

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<v Speaker 1>treaty and in response, we're going to violate the treaty

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<v Speaker 1>and everything goes into a downward spiral that collapses a

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<v Speaker 1>global trading system UM instead the process. First of all,

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<v Speaker 1>it gives the countries an opportunity to settle dispute. Second

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<v Speaker 1>of all, it it's a process where takes a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit of time, so one can can sort of have

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<v Speaker 1>cool heads. UM. It gives the country that's violating the

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<v Speaker 1>rules a chance to get its own political act in order,

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<v Speaker 1>because usually there's some kind of domestic political UH forces

0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.160
<v Speaker 1>pushing the violation UM, and they have some time to

0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:15.680
<v Speaker 1>to to fix that. But at the end of the day,

0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.559
<v Speaker 1>if if the retaliation is authorized by the w t O,

0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.920
<v Speaker 1>then the retaliation is not another violation UM. And that

0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.000
<v Speaker 1>also sort of helps everything from going into an uncontrolled

0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:30.080
<v Speaker 1>downward spiral. So the Trump administration has already exempted Mexico

0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:33.560
<v Speaker 1>and Canada from the tariffs. They may make more exceptions.

0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.199
<v Speaker 1>How does that affect the US argument before the w

0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.720
<v Speaker 1>t O that the tariffs are based on national security needs.

0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:44.679
<v Speaker 1>The US never had a winning argument for the w

0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.440
<v Speaker 1>t O UM. There's two different sets of law here.

0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.160
<v Speaker 1>There's the U S law and there's the international law UM.

0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.720
<v Speaker 1>On the international level, in order for the United States

0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.079
<v Speaker 1>to impose trade barriers that we would otherwise not be

0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.839
<v Speaker 1>entitled to impose under our trade agreement obligations. If we're

0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.199
<v Speaker 1>using national security as our reason, UM, we would have

0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.679
<v Speaker 1>to have we'd have to either be in time of

0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.079
<v Speaker 1>war or we'd have to be in an emergency. And

0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.880
<v Speaker 1>international relations, which is generally understood to be the things

0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.480
<v Speaker 1>that happened right before you're actually in the war UM.

0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.760
<v Speaker 1>But in any event, UM, we don't have either. We

0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:20.719
<v Speaker 1>we we have nothing that could even be close to

0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:24.160
<v Speaker 1>an emergency international relations. What we have our US government

0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:29.520
<v Speaker 1>officials that can envisage an unlikely but theoretically possible future

0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.440
<v Speaker 1>scenario where there would be a World War three UM.

0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.319
<v Speaker 1>Global ocean shipping would be disrupted. We would not be

0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:39.120
<v Speaker 1>able to import steel or aluminum UH in meaningful quantities

0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.080
<v Speaker 1>because they need to go by ocean freight, not air

0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.800
<v Speaker 1>freight UH, and we wouldn't have sufficient capacity for our

0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.760
<v Speaker 1>own domestic economy during that disruption. The fact that you

0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.080
<v Speaker 1>can envisage a theoretical but unlikely future does not even

0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.439
<v Speaker 1>come close to you currently right now having an emergency.

0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:57.280
<v Speaker 1>So there's no question that we don't qualify for that

0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.040
<v Speaker 1>that national security exception, and that's in the General Agreement

0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:03.760
<v Speaker 1>on Tires and trade the GAT Article one. And as

0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.480
<v Speaker 1>a result, we are violating our normal bindings with respect

0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:10.319
<v Speaker 1>to the duties that when there are customs duties that

0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.120
<v Speaker 1>we're allowed to impose on these goods. So we never

0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:17.880
<v Speaker 1>had an argument. Are our complete absence of argument? Uh

0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.160
<v Speaker 1>to defend ourselves in w t O is a more

0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.520
<v Speaker 1>complete absence of argument. But the big difference so that

0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.760
<v Speaker 1>it does make um is under US law. Even if

0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.200
<v Speaker 1>the US were authorized under w t O rules to

0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.240
<v Speaker 1>impose these barriers, and there still would be the question

0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:35.000
<v Speaker 1>of whether there's Congress, We'll have to leave that. We'll

0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.440
<v Speaker 1>pick We'll pick this up again, I'm sure, Matt, thanks

0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.360
<v Speaker 1>so much. That's Matt Gold of Boredom Law School. Thanks

0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.680
<v Speaker 1>for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe

0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.960
<v Speaker 1>and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and

0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:52.320
<v Speaker 1>on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brolso this

0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:57.240
<v Speaker 1>is Bloomberg. Yeah, yeah,