1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,280 Speaker 1: I'm Will Lucas and this is black Tech, Green Money. 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Jeff Nelson is known as the Relatable CEO for its 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: ability to take very complex technology solutions and help others 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: understand how and why to implement them to benefit themselves 5 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: and the businesses. He's the co founder and chief operating 6 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: officer for Blavity, the leading company for black culture and millennials, 7 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: and the founder and CEOs and shopping of real time 8 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: software platform for data discovery, analytics, and automation. His companies 9 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: have combined raised over thirteen million dollars in venture funding, 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: generating millions in recurring revenue, and created dozens of jobs 11 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: for women and underrepresented people. His book, Having to Start 12 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: a Paradox Twenty Strategies to Build the Business from Scratch 13 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: is out now. And So I was reading a blog 14 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: post on your website and you were talking about the 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: pros and cons of outsourcing software development. 16 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: Can you share, you know, like real. 17 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: Life examples where you may have outsourced something in the 18 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: positives and negatives of that, like what was your periods? 19 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 2: Like yeah, so and all my different stops. Right. So, 20 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 2: even at Blavity, there are times when we outsource. Sometimes 21 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: when we bring things in house and my other companies 22 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 2: and ventures, that same decision making criteria applies, right, And 23 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 2: so generally my rule of thumb is that early on 24 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: it is better to outsource it because you don't know 25 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: if it's gonna work. Outsourcing is more it's it's a 26 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: larger initial upfront investment, but you don't carry the cost 27 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 2: over time, right. And so for something that you know 28 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: potentially may not work or may not be monetizable, outsourcing 29 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: it allows you to have a very narrow scope. It 30 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 2: allows you to get more bang for your buck. Right. 31 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: You're typically not having to think about who do I 32 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: need to hire, how many people I need to hire, 33 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: what are those skill sets which takes a lot of time. 34 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: You can work with somebody that has all that and 35 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: you can just sort of say, this is what I'm 36 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: trying to do, this is what I'm trying to build, 37 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: and go and go for it, right, And so that's 38 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 2: that's generally my advice there. Now, there are some risks, 39 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: and I can think, you know, I've had good experiences 40 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: outsourcing with some firms, even even offshore, right. I think 41 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: you know, ten years ago, it used to be that 42 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 2: people were very wary of outsourcing to to you know, 43 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: offshore development firms. If there are no regulatory issues, no 44 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 2: sort of like data security compliance issues, then that's that's 45 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: a viable path. It's very very cost effective. I've had 46 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: good experiences on shore and offshore, some some bad experiences, 47 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: and and what I will say, you know, in those 48 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: bad experiences, what you typically get is you you sort 49 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: of get bad actors from adversarial countries, right, Like, so 50 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 2: countries who are you know, are interested in stealing intellectual 51 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: property from US sensities. You get either people who are 52 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: from those countries who are posing to be US citizens 53 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 2: or being citizens of another country, and that really they're 54 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: in it to one either steal ip or to create 55 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: backdoors in what you're doing. And early on at Blavity, 56 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: this was several years ago, I would say, like in 57 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, we had this random thing where we were 58 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: being hacked and our sites were always going down by 59 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 2: from Russian bots, right, Like, we were always going down, 60 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: and Morgan was like, Yo, what's what's going on? Why 61 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: are we always going down? And I would actually look 62 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: in and see that we are being actively hacked from Russia, right, 63 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: And a lot of this was because early on when 64 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: you are trying to get the market quickly, you're trying 65 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: to build things quickly, and you are outsourcing. Sometimes if 66 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: you are you know, just going for the cheapest vendor, 67 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 2: you may actually be getting some bad actors who are 68 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 2: playing a long game. They're trying to put some back 69 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 2: doors in what your a building. You're trying to or 70 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: excel traate some ip So that that's something to be 71 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 2: careful of. 72 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: So when you think about outsourcing in those earliest days, 73 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: and you might even be trying to raise funds also, 74 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: So it does outsourced technical talent impact fundraising. 75 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it does right and typically and you know 76 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: this is interesting what I you know, what I talk 77 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 2: about in my book, which you know, the startup paradox, 78 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: the fourth elements that I talk about, right, which is 79 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: you know, team, product, customers, and then funding. When investors 80 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: are evaluating a startup, they're really looking at those three 81 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 2: other things, right and really honestly all four right, They're 82 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: looking to see have you raised money before? Right, because 83 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: investors kind of have this herb mentality if you've raised 84 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 2: or you got money from this other person before, and 85 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: they may get at like if war if Warren Buffett 86 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 2: is invested in something, then everybody everybody's in the right 87 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: or so. But if you're a startup and you haven't 88 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 2: raised money before, then they're looking to say, like, okay, 89 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: what about your team? Do you have customer traction? Do 90 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 2: you have a do you have a good product? 91 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: Right? 92 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: And so yes, your rights to note that in those 93 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 2: early days, if you if your team is mostly made 94 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: up of offshore outsourced talent, that can be a risk, 95 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: especially as it relates to intellectual property. The investors are 96 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 2: gonna want to know like, hey, have you made sure 97 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: that the work that these people are doing you own it, 98 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: that they that they don't own it. But but really 99 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: the story has to be how are you leveraging your 100 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: limited resources to you know, if you don't have a 101 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 2: strong team, how are you somehow building a great product right? 102 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: Or how are you somehow getting great customer traction? A 103 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: more attractive option that I will say that has really 104 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: emerged and I talk a bit about it in my 105 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: in the book Having to Start a Paradox, and it's 106 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: something that I do and have done. It is this 107 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: notion of like a fractional cto and so this is 108 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: really for you know, if you're a founder where you've 109 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: got a limited budget, You've got somebody to spend, but 110 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: you can't afford to hire a full team. You have 111 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 2: not found that technical co founder, but you don't know 112 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: how to find an outsourced development team. What you could 113 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 2: do is work with somebody who is a fractional cto, 114 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: like somebody in my position who has built companies before, 115 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 2: who has done it, where their incentive is like, they're 116 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 2: not going to charge you what they would normally charge 117 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 2: somebody to do this, right, because you can't afford that. Really, 118 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 2: what they're what they're trying to do is say, how 119 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 2: can I partner with you in some capacity and be 120 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: a part of your team and share in the upside, 121 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 2: but lend my expertise, my time, my credibility to one 122 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: help you build and to help you assemble a strong team. 123 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: What I've seen recently is that investors, in the absence 124 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: of having a core team yourself, when you do have 125 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: this this sort of fractional expertise, that's a good substitute, right, 126 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: Like think of some of the you know, greatest founders 127 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 2: that you can think of who have built strong businesses. 128 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: If they if an investors like, oh you got so 129 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: and so spending twenty hours a month with you helping 130 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,239 Speaker 2: you build or helping it do this, and they've scaled 131 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 2: up and they've built companies. Then cool, like they're they're 132 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: willing to work. I'll roll with that. And that's a 133 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: that's a viable model. 134 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: And so think let's take that one step further, because 135 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: if if I am not a technical culte, not not 136 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: a technical founder, I'm outsourcing technical talent and then I'm 137 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: also raising money. The fundamental thought there is that I 138 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: could potentially get funded with an idea because I can't 139 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: implement the thing. And so that's that's let's take that 140 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: conversation like are people still being funded with just ideas? 141 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: Not black people? Unfortunately, unfortunately it's tough. I mean, if 142 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: you are if you're a black person, if you're a woman, 143 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: if you're a black woman, each each of those it 144 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 2: just makes it. 145 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: Harder, right and so and not technical yeah, and not 146 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: say oh. 147 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: My gosh, you're right. So if you're not technical and 148 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: you are, you know you've got you are not a 149 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: white man with a network. You know, I know, I know, 150 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: you know. I used to work at a company where 151 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: the founder and it was part of a story I 152 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: got funded based on an idea, and to me that 153 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: was that was ridiculous. I mean you in the line 154 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 2: of work that we do, you know, we covered on 155 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: afro tech all the time, tech Crunch covers it. There 156 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 2: are so many founders and companies where you look and 157 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: they've raised millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah, 158 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: and then they they just their product never takes off, 159 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: they never make any money. I mean, I can think 160 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: about all these AI companies you know that have built it, 161 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 2: like the AI pen or the little orange looking rabbit thing, 162 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: like all these companies that raise a lot of money, 163 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: and they have not proven that they deserve it. And 164 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 2: you get you know, so many entrepreneurs who are non technical, 165 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: but they have good ideas, but they can't build it 166 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 2: because they're black or and because they are black or 167 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: they are a woman or a black woman, they don't 168 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 2: get those resources. And so really what it comes down to, 169 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 2: and this idea of the startup paradox, which you know 170 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: I talked about as I was mentoring people and then 171 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 2: I wrote this book about it, is that if you 172 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: are a non technical founder, you know, or even if 173 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: you are a technical founder, and you don't have the 174 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: luck or the luxury to just be implicitly believed discredible 175 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 2: like white men often have. Then building a startup is 176 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: going to be almost impossible unless you get creative and 177 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: figure out how to hack one of these resources. Right. 178 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: If you just got an idea, you either got to 179 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 2: turn that idea into a product, or you got to 180 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: get some customers who believe in that idea and are like, Okay, 181 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'll pay you to build that for mere order. Yeah, 182 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: because investors aren't going to be the ones to do 183 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: it right. So it's it's really I wouldn't bank on 184 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 2: getting funded for an idea, right, you got to somehow 185 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 2: either figure out how to get that product built using 186 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: some of the things I talk about in the book, 187 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 2: using automation, using AI, you know, using different tools as 188 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: a non technical founder that allow you to build a product. 189 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 2: Or you've got to try to build a team when 190 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: you don't have funding, again using some of the ways 191 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 2: that I talk about in the book, you know, you know, 192 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: bartering your skills, hiring interns or you know, finding co 193 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: founders or working with fractional service providers, or you got 194 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: to try to get some customers, right, get those pre 195 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 2: orders that you just mentioned, or be an entrepreneur in residents, 196 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 2: or you know, get somebody who is going to pay 197 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: you as a consultant to to to add value you 198 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 2: build the product at the same time. So those are 199 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: the tactics. You really got to think about. 200 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: How much does how something works matter anymore? You talked 201 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: about IP a little bit ago. In these days, you know, 202 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: I can take your idea just do it a different way, 203 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: you know, So how much does IP matter anymore? Or 204 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: is it the traction that matters more? 205 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm gonna say traction from an investor standpoint, 206 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 2: traction is what matters. I mean, we look at businesses 207 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: all the time, and I think most of us can 208 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: probably relate to this. Apple is a good example of 209 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 2: a company from a just what do their products do? 210 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 2: Like the iPhone. Everybody always jokes about owing an Android. 211 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: You know they've had that sense, you know, twenty twelve 212 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: or whatever, Right, iPhone just dot, But everybody wants an iPhone, 213 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 2: right and and and so it's less of And this 214 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: is that's an important question because entrepreneurs have to balance this, right, 215 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 2: It is important that you have some defensibility to protect 216 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 2: you against bigger companies who can just steal the idea. Right, 217 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: So you want to you want to have some defensibility, 218 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 2: some intellectual property, some ingenuity that is interesting and creative 219 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 2: that protects it. But at the end of the day, 220 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 2: if you spend, if you focus all of your energy 221 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 2: and attention on how can I build a wheel that 222 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: is the most innovative and technologically advanced, will Ever, when 223 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: people just want something that's gonna you know, transport their vehicle, 224 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 2: make it, make it roll continuously from one point to 225 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 2: the other, you know you have to balance that. And 226 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 2: so ultimately what you need to be thinking about is 227 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 2: how do I get some market and get traction. And 228 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: that's where you've got to focus on workflow, and you've 229 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: got to focus on experience and usability. You've got to 230 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 2: look at as a founder, when you are looking to 231 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 2: build a product or into a market, the first question 232 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 2: you should be asking yourself is what are the opportunities 233 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: to make it easier for people to get the value 234 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 2: that they want? And value typically is about solving a problem. 235 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 2: And so a good example of this is with like 236 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: a lot of these AI startups, they're literally one hundred 237 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 2: that start a day, and all of them are basically 238 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: wrappers around chat GBT. They're all just prompting chat GBT 239 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 2: and doing something. So it isn't so much about whether 240 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: you've got the most innovative, innovative AI solution. It's about 241 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 2: whether you can understand what are people trying to do, 242 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: how are they trying to get from one point to 243 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: the next, and what is the friction there? Where is 244 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 2: it cumbersome, where is it complicated? Where is it time consuming? 245 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 2: And how can I build something? Regardless of how it works, 246 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 2: but the way users interact with it, it delights them 247 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: because it's simpler. Right. So that's why so many people 248 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 2: prefer iPhones over androids, because, yes, androids, you can do 249 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: everything under the sun, but I'm not. You know, if 250 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 2: you're not a A I don't want to do anything 251 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,599 Speaker 2: you're not, or I don't want to I don't know 252 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 2: how to like root my phone and then install this 253 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: firmware and do this patch up dating. Then you don't 254 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: know what that stuff means. But the iPhone is like, yeah, 255 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 2: we came out with it ten years late. But when 256 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 2: you do, it's like, ah, man, that just works. That 257 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: that just works. And it's easy and it's delightful. So 258 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: you know, you got to focus on that market share, 259 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: and you get that by focusing on experience of your 260 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: users and your customers. 261 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: You said a couple of things that I want to 262 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: come back to, and it's ideas and making things easier 263 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: for people. It was a I think it was ev Williams, 264 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: one of the co founders of Twitter, who said this, 265 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: and it kind of changed the way I thought about 266 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: a lot of things, because when you're working on a startup, 267 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: you hear often, I'm sure you hear often of people 268 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: who have ideas and they want to change what people do. 269 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: Instead of doing what they're doing, they want to make 270 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: them do something else. And Evan he was talking about 271 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: how that's probably not the best idea because you want 272 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: to make it easier to do what they already want 273 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: to do instead of trying to get them to change behavior. 274 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that from your perspective. 275 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: I love that you brought that up, because people who 276 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: believe what you're what you know, whatever is ever is 277 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 2: refuting they're always pointing to I think it was Henry 278 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: Ford and Steve Jobs kind of would would would would 279 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: would also mention this, which is the idea that if 280 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: I ask people what they want, they would have said 281 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 2: they wanted a faster horse, right, And so they look 282 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: at that and saying like, you can't ask people what 283 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: they want. You gotta you just gotta be so far 284 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 2: in the future that you built that. And really, I 285 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: think if people actually sit and look at it, when 286 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 2: when this idea of like when you ask people what 287 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: they want, what you really have to focus on is 288 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 2: not what product you want, because yes, people are only 289 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: constrained by what they know, but you have to focus 290 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: on what what problems are you trying to solve and 291 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: the problem that it's a horse or vehicle like a 292 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: gasoline power vehicle or a self driving vehicle. Ultimately, the 293 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: problem that that's solved is I need to get from 294 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 2: place one point to another and the distances are long, right, 295 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 2: I need to get from one place to the other. 296 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: That's the problem, right. And so if you focus on 297 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: if you actually look at it from that standpoint, like 298 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: the core problem that people are trying to solve, what 299 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 2: are those things? And then your opportunity to innovate is 300 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 2: in doing those is helping them do those things better? Right? 301 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 2: The whether it's a horse or a car or self 302 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: driving vehicle is just the delivery mechanism for the solution, right. 303 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: But you have to not focus on delivery mechanisms. You 304 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: have to focus on the actual problem and figure out 305 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 2: where's the space for innovation and that's where your ideas land. 306 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: And so what I always encourage founders to do when 307 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: they come to me and they have an idea, and 308 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: I would say most nine out of ten founders when 309 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: I talk to them, their idea doesn't make any sense 310 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 2: because it's it's it's it's a it's a problem that 311 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 2: only they have. And I always sit back and I say, 312 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 2: you know, well, what problem are you solving? Because everybody 313 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 2: comes and they pitch a product, they don't pitch a solution. 314 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: They say I'm gonna build this thing that and they 315 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: tell you about all the features and everything that's going 316 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 2: to do. And I always challenge them to step back 317 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 2: and say, Okay, well, what what problem are you solving? 318 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 2: Like what solution is? That's good? And then once they 319 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: get there, it's like, okay, well who has this this problem? 320 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 2: And then the last question you got to ask is like, okay, 321 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: is this a problem? They're willing to pay to solve 322 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 2: because I got a lot of problems that I'm not 323 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: going to pay any money to solve. I got a 324 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 2: lot of annoyances in my life. I got a lot 325 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: of things that are like, oh, somebody, if somebody fixes 326 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 2: that would be cool, but I'm not paying for it. Right, 327 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: So as to be an entrepreneur, that's successful. Right, you 328 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 2: want to make sure that you've you have an idea 329 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 2: that it's touching on a problem that a lot of 330 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 2: people have, and a lot of people are going to 331 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: pay to solve. Those are the ideas that make. 332 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 1: It and pay at enough of a rate to make 333 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: it make sense. 334 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: Exactly to pay. They're gonna pay more than it costs 335 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: you to deliver the solution, exactly. Absolutely. 336 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: If you could distill your entrepreneurial journey into a tweet, 337 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: give you that tweet. 338 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: Man, I will, I would. I would say this that 339 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 2: my journey is an entrepreneur. This is gonna be not 340 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: entirely accurate, but it's it's about seventy percent there. One. 341 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 2: There's this uh Kanye West line, Kanye West, not yea 342 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 2: or yeasy. This is old ye pink post all right, 343 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: So it's a lyric. Do the wrap and attract triple 344 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 2: double no assists, and deadline just always sticks out to me. 345 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 2: One now, obviously is the co founder of Blavity. I got, 346 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 2: I got a great team. One. We've got a tremendous 347 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 2: leader of Morgan, who is is just a workhorse, who 348 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 2: is a is a visionary who none of this happens 349 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 2: without her. So anybody is triple doubles, this is Morgan. 350 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 2: But I relate to so much to that line, not 351 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: to imply that I've never had help or that I 352 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 2: do this all on my own, but we as founders. 353 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 2: And what I think Morgan had to learn, what I 354 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 2: had to learn, what Aaron had to learn, is there's 355 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: no cavalry coming right. We're not gonna get the one 356 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 2: hundred million dollars just for an idea that all we 357 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 2: have is us in our community. And so when you 358 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: think about the story of Blavity and our journey as entrepreneurs, 359 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 2: you think about my individual journey as an entrepreneur, which 360 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 2: yes includes Blavity, but also includes sin Chappion. It also 361 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 2: includes you know, other things outside of Blavity that I've 362 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 2: built and I've done. I've had to be in a 363 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 2: space where I had to learn not only yes, I 364 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 2: have a technical background so I could build product, but 365 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: I had to learn how to build businesses. I have 366 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: to learn how to build financial models. I have to 367 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 2: learn how to do sales. I had to learn how 368 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 2: to do more. Morgan had to learn how to build 369 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 2: product and be a product manager. Nobody taught us these things. 370 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 2: We didn't go to college and learn these things. We 371 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 2: had to come out and we had to not only wrap, 372 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 2: we have to make beats, we had to mix, we 373 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 2: had to go market, we had to go on tour. 374 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 2: We had to do it like we have to do 375 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: all of that. And so that's that's what my entrepreneurial 376 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 2: journey has been about. It's been about that hustle, and 377 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 2: it's been about not waiting on somebody to come and 378 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 2: support you, but figuring out how to do it and 379 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 2: doing it on your own. 380 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: How involved should a technical co founder be when they're 381 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: brought in after the idea is already thought up, Like, 382 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: are they I need you to come in and sit 383 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: in front of the keyboard or are they involved? Should 384 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: they be involved in you know the idea of flourishing 385 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: even further potentially? 386 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that the best technology is built 387 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 2: when the people building the technology understand the business case 388 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: for it, because often when technologists are building in a vacuum, 389 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 2: the you know, at the end of the day, technology 390 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: building technology is both is an art and a science, 391 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 2: and what technologists and engineers are motivated by is a challenge. 392 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 2: And the most immediate challenge is can I build the 393 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 2: most impressive thing technically, And so if you're in a 394 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: vacuum as a technologist, that's what you're going to do. 395 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: But as we just talked about, you know, it isn't 396 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: necessarily do you have the best advanced back end thing. 397 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 2: It's about can you build a business retraction? And so 398 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: the more you can get the people building the technology 399 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 2: closer to the business and at the very least understanding 400 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 2: what the challenge is there so that they can get 401 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 2: motivated by that, but even beyond that, contributing their ideas 402 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 2: and saying, Okay, cool, I understand this is what we're 403 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 2: trying to do from a business standpoint, this is the 404 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 2: problem we're trying to solve, this is what users are saying. 405 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: They can then contribute ideas about how to use technology 406 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 2: to do that more quickly, more efficiently, and at a 407 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 2: greater scale. So I definitely think that if you're somebody 408 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 2: that you're like, look, I got an idea, I've been 409 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 2: building this and I just need somebody to come in 410 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: and do it. The more you can actually involve them 411 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: in saying like, hey, you know, this is what we're 412 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 2: trying to do. What are your thoughts, what are your opinions? 413 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 2: Are we all base? Should we be thinking about this differently? 414 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 2: The better ultimately the product is going to be. 415 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: So then what makes somebody consider elevating that person to 416 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: co founder level? Because you don't have to be there 417 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: on day one to be co founder, but there's got 418 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: to be some decision making calculus that says, you know 419 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: what I actually want you with on the cap table? 420 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? Deep, Yeah, it's like that that decision when you 421 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: know you decide to give somebody a ring or accept 422 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 2: somebody's ring, Right, it's similar to that. You know, it's 423 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 2: I and I do talk about this in in my 424 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 2: book Taking On a co Founder. It is that's that 425 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: that is a relationship that is significant. And so because 426 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 2: you are now no, yes, there's hierarchy, right, there's CEO 427 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,360 Speaker 2: and and you know even with co founders, right, somebody's 428 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: got to be the leader. But you are now moving 429 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: from a place where you are not just giving direction 430 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 2: and and and holding people accountable to execute. You're now 431 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: entering a partnership where you are collaborating on vision. I mean, 432 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 2: it's sort of like if you have if you have 433 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 2: a if you're married, or you have a life partner, 434 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: you have you know, you have kids with someone you're 435 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: collaborating and you're sitting and talking together and saying, well, 436 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 2: you know where we're gonna live, or how are we 437 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: gonna raise the kids? Or are we gonna let them 438 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 2: eat these foods? Are we gonna make them do this 439 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: thing or this happen? How are we going to discipline them? 440 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 2: You're you're having those questions where it can't just be 441 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: your way and it can't just be their way. And 442 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: sometimes what you want is not going to happen. Sometimes 443 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 2: what they want is not gonna happen. You have to 444 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 2: come and compromise or come and figure out like, Okay, 445 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 2: on this thing, you feel more strongly, so I'm gonna 446 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 2: let you have it. Or on this thing, we're gonna 447 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 2: you know, we're gonna figure out a way where we 448 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 2: come to some consensus and compromise. And so the point 449 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: at which you decide to elevate someone to that, I 450 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 2: think it's when you realize that one thing practically speaking 451 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 2: is that you want them. You don't want to lose them, 452 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 2: because when you have somebody who is just either helping 453 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 2: you on a fractional basis, or they're just an employee 454 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 2: or they're a contractor, it's trans it's purely transactional, right 455 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 2: And if they if they get somebody better, if something 456 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 2: better comes along, I mean it really is like Dayton. 457 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 2: If if somebody else is it comes along that's better, 458 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: or that you know, is making me feel more motivated 459 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: or more challenged, or you know, pay us better, whatever 460 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: the case may be, then I'm they're probably gonna go there. 461 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 2: So one is like I can't lose this person. They're 462 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 2: too valuable to what we're doing. That they need to be, 463 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 2: they need to feel and I need to recognize them 464 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 2: more as part of the team. And then two is 465 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 2: when you really when you are able to work with 466 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 2: that person and you really feel as though they make 467 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: your life easier, right, Like it's sort of like when 468 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: you manage people. We've all managed people where where like 469 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: managing them is a job in and of itself, like 470 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: your job is just to manage. When you get people 471 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 2: who are like, hey, I'm no longer at a point 472 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 2: where I'm managing you, but it's like you are adding 473 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 2: so much value that yeah, I may be checking in 474 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 2: on you, and I may be, you know, holding you 475 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 2: accountable to things, but you're coming up with ideas and 476 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 2: you're driving things forward, and you're doing this without me 477 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 2: having to tell you. You're making my life easier, You're 478 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: you're giving me time back, You're you're doing those things. 479 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 2: So when you get to that point that that's when 480 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 2: you consider it. And I would say only after you've 481 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: had conflict with that person. Like in any relationship, you 482 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 2: don't want to marry somebody you never had a fight 483 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 2: with because you know, you want to make sure that 484 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 2: that y'all can disagree and and still work together and 485 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 2: still be productive. So so that's how I would think 486 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: about it. 487 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: You know, the book is Hacking the Startup Paradox, which 488 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: you know, which effectively just says a lot of things 489 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: don't make sense to start ups. 490 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 2: Here's how you navigate it. 491 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: Here's how you navigate exactly. And you know, some things 492 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,959 Speaker 1: may be intuitive some things maybe you know backwards, just 493 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: because of the way it works. You're trying to build 494 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: something out of nothing. And in that regard, what are 495 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: common mistakes you see technical co founders make. 496 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 2: The common mistake that I see technical co founders make 497 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 2: is trying to build the most complicated, complex, technically impressive 498 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 2: product before it has any market validation. And by market validation, 499 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 2: I don't even necessarily mean traction. Though it's good if 500 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 2: people are paying for it and using it. But people, 501 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 2: you know, they don't do customer discovery, which is the 502 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,239 Speaker 2: process of going out and talking to people and saying like, hey, 503 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 2: is this a problem? Do you know, how do you 504 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: try to solve it today? What are the opportunities to 505 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: do that better? And is it a problem you're willing 506 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: to pay to have solved? You know, Like I often 507 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 2: try not to pick on product, I often try not 508 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: to pick on actual companies. So so forgive me if 509 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: I'm out of line here. But you know, just contemporarily, 510 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 2: there is there is all these AI products, and some 511 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: of which I bought off the hype. But there's one 512 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: now I think called friend. Right, there's a story about 513 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 2: the person paid a whole bunch of money for friend 514 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 2: dot com. And basically it's a it's a it's a 515 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 2: it's an imaginary friend. Uh that is AI powered. It's 516 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 2: always watching, and it's always and and you can just 517 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 2: sort of talk to it and it will use AI 518 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: as a wrap around AI that's gonna gonna talk back 519 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: to you. And and look, I don't know if that 520 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 2: product is gonna work or not. I'm not the target user. 521 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: Maybe they did some customer discovery, but for stuff like that, 522 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 2: I'm just like, you know, you paid a lot of 523 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 2: money for a domain, you paid, you paid a lot 524 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 2: of money to to sort of market this thing. What 525 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 2: problem were you solving? And is it a problem that 526 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 2: people are willing to pay to solve? Right? And yes, 527 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: maybe yes, I don't know their data or not. I 528 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: don't know what they've done. And maybe they they've done 529 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 2: some research. And you know, there is a an epidemic 530 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 2: of loneliness, especially I think coming out of the lockdowns 531 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: that we had, and people were yearning for connection and 532 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 2: whether that connection is artificial or not, Hey, you know, 533 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: I don't know, but but I think that's a good 534 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: case study and making sure that whether you know, for 535 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,959 Speaker 2: technical founders even non technical founders. Make sure that you 536 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: were talking to real users and not just saying like, Hey, 537 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 2: I'm building this product, will you buy it? Don't pitch 538 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 2: your product, go and say like, look what what? What are? 539 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 2: What are the things that you wake up frustrated by? 540 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 2: Like what what when you when you wake up in 541 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 2: the morning and you think about your day, what are 542 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 2: you dreading? Cool, let's dive into that. Okay, why do 543 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: you dread that? What? You know? What is it? Is it? 544 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 2: In in the book I talk about this problems problems 545 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 2: or when peop people buy things, the reason that they 546 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 2: buy it is either because it's cheaper than what they're 547 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 2: doing now, it's faster than what they do now, or 548 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: it's better it delivers better quality. Right, So when people 549 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 2: are frustrated by something, it's either because this thing that 550 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 2: I have to do or that I want to do 551 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: is too expensive, or it takes too long, or you know, 552 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 2: I got to do this thing, but I'm not really 553 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 2: getting the results back that I want from it, and 554 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: you know, and so you really got to kind of 555 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 2: hone in and figure out like what's my lane of opportunity? Right, 556 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 2: what is the thing that frustrates you why does it 557 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 2: frustrate you? And what do you do now? And what 558 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 2: are the opportunities to improve what you're doing now and 559 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 2: build a product that does that. Not enough founders do that. 560 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 2: They just go and say I've got this idea, and 561 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 2: they build it and they waste a lot of money 562 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 2: on it. They spend a lot of money, they spend 563 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 2: a lot of time, and it's to waste. 564 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's you got me thinking about like MVPs and 565 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: his name escapes me now, but read Hoffman and he 566 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: has said, you know the famous if you're not embarrassed 567 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: by the first version of your product, you know you've 568 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: launched too late. And when he said that, you know, 569 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: it was what ten years ago maybe when he said that. 570 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: And I think about it this way is as you know, 571 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: a technology has gotten so much cheaper. It's a lot 572 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: easier to get things done than it was ten, fifteen, 573 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: twenty years ago, and the bar has been raised on 574 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: what is minimally viable. And I wonder my question to 575 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: you is is the ugly site, the ugly app acceptable anymore? 576 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: Is that minimally viable anymore? 577 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think there's a literal way to look 578 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 2: at ugly and there's kind of a figurative way, so 579 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: the literal way, which is like something that's not attractive, 580 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: I do think that users associate, you know, now, you're 581 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 2: exactly right in twenty twenty four, the way things look 582 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 2: the it implies as a level of sophistication. And so 583 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 2: can you just launch with a you know, website with 584 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 2: a white background in the textbox and people are like, oh, yeah, 585 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: I'm gonna do thislist last today? Yeah, you could you 586 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 2: launch craickflist today? Rights, that's a good question nine times 587 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 2: out of ten. No, And the good news is that 588 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: building sites, building apps, building AI tools is easier than 589 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: ever ten years ago, fifteen years ago, building a Craigslist 590 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: even though it looks like, you know, it looks like 591 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: somebody just doing together overnight, it involved a lot of work. 592 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 2: And not only did it involve a lot of work, 593 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: but it involved a lot of expertise. It's very cumbersome. 594 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: Now you can build that literally in an hour or two. Right, 595 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: And so yes, the bar for what is minimally viable, 596 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 2: as you as you said, has been raised just because 597 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 2: it is so much easier to build things. Right. So, 598 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 2: in the literal sense, I think can you launch with 599 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 2: something that's probably not but ugly in the figurative sense 600 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 2: of when you have a grand vision And this is 601 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: where founder struggles like they have a grand vision of 602 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 2: all the things that they want to do, all the 603 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 2: things that their product is going to do, and it's 604 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 2: very hard for them to launch with something that only 605 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 2: does one thing. It's ugly in the sense that it's basic. 606 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 2: It could look pretty, but it's so basic, and that 607 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 2: I think is still true. I think that you you know, 608 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: you have to well, we look at the tools we 609 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 2: use now, you know, there there are so many examples, 610 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 2: whether it's Netflix, whether it's YouTube, whether it's Instagram, whether 611 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: it's TikTok, whether it's Uber, whatever we use now not 612 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 2: looking at the interface being ugly, but if you look 613 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 2: at when they launch, they all really only did one 614 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 2: thing well, like Uber interface aside. Uber just made it 615 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 2: easier for you to get a taxi. Yeah, you imagine 616 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 2: the stories of being in New York, especially if you're 617 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 2: black and you live in New York a little bit 618 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 2: where you go to fifth Fab and you're trying to 619 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 2: held down a taxi. You don't know the taxis for 620 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 2: higher It drives past you don't know if they're being 621 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 2: racist or not. Uber just made it. Uber did one thing. 622 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 2: It did one thing. It made it easier for you 623 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,399 Speaker 2: to get a taxi, regardless of how it looked. That's 624 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 2: the one thing it did. And now we look back 625 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 2: and we're like, oh, like you you could build app 626 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 2: around that. That's that's kind of simple, right, like all 627 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 2: the things that Uber does, Like that is such a 628 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 2: minimal and small use case. But that's what they launched with, 629 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 2: and it solved a real problem that people weren't willing 630 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 2: to pay for. Right if you could tell me that 631 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 2: I don't have to waste like I don't have to 632 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 2: waste ten minutes trying to hell down a taxi, but 633 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 2: I could do it from our apartment, from my brownstone 634 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 2: and order it to know as soon as I walk out, 635 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 2: it'll be there waiting for me. Yeah, I'll pay a 636 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 2: couple extra bucks for that. And so in the figurative sense, 637 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 2: I do think that, yes, you gotta you have to 638 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 2: watch for something that's ugly in the sense that it's basic, 639 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 2: stripped down. It does one thing well, and then you 640 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 2: got to incrementally be that up over time. 641 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: I wanted end this talking about the book you just 642 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: released just a little bit ago. I don't want to 643 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 1: date the podcast, but you just just look recently, you've 644 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: released this recently. What made you say, you know what, 645 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to document this stuff and put it in 646 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: a binder and put it on the shelves. What makes 647 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: you do that versus you know, just continuing to speak 648 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: like you speak and all these things. 649 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 2: So as often that happened. Often is the case in 650 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 2: my life. I am I'm somebody that thinks, you know, 651 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 2: will have random thoughts that I just kind of leave 652 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 2: on the on the on the shelf, so to speak, 653 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 2: and then I'll randomly get these ideas seemingly out of nowhere. 654 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 2: When I decided to become a full time entrepreneur, I 655 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 2: remember I was sitting at my job at the time 656 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 2: and it just hit me, like I wasn't disgruntled, I 657 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 2: wasn't upset, I wasn't you know, I wasn't uh, there 658 00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 2: was there was no trigger in the moment, but it 659 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 2: just hit me. And so with this book, it was 660 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 2: a similar thing. I remember exactly where I was. I was. 661 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 2: I was at the airport, as is often the case 662 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 2: since I'm always on the road. I was at the airport. 663 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 2: I was at DCA Reagan Airport boarding a flight back 664 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 2: to Atlanta, and as I was boarding the flight, something 665 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 2: just hit me. It was like start up paradox. I 666 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 2: should I should write a book about that, because in 667 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 2: my mind, it was the framework itself, this idea of 668 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 2: you've got, you know, a team that helps you build 669 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 2: a product, the product that helps you get customers, customers 670 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 2: to help you get funding, funding helps you a similar team. 671 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 2: It was so crystal clear in my mind, and I 672 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 2: was like, you know, like I really need to write 673 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 2: this down. I talk about it and I've never written 674 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 2: it down before. I just I just know what I've 675 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 2: memorized that I've talked to people about it. But it 676 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 2: was so clear, the language was clear, the consistency of 677 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 2: how I thought about it, how I just gribed it, 678 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 2: how I talked about I was like, you know, I 679 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 2: need to write this down. And if I'm going to 680 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 2: write it down, and I might as well, I might 681 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 2: as well like do something with it. And my initial 682 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 2: idea was like, yeah, I'll just like put together a 683 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 2: little pdf, get somebody to design it and make it pretty, 684 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,839 Speaker 2: put it as a downloadable on my website. But then 685 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 2: as I got into it and I actually started doing it, 686 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 2: it shifted from just like let me write down this 687 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 2: idea and like kind of make some collateral, like an 688 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: asset for it that I can give people to like 689 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 2: writing a book. And that's ironic because you know, as 690 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 2: I talk about in the book, I don't read books, 691 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 2: and I always get I get a lot of flak 692 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 2: for this, like I've I you know, people are always 693 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 2: sociock that like what you don't read. And I remember 694 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 2: growing up my dad would always give me books, and 695 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 2: I had the break. It's hard when I was like, 696 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 2: you know, you know, I don't read those books. You 697 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 2: give me what you know? Everybody, everybody assumes that if 698 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 2: you are a if you're any kind of intellectual, you're 699 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 2: a well read person. And always what I mean by 700 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 2: I don't read this, like that's just not how I 701 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 2: get information. And the way that I get information is 702 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 2: I'm a doer, right, so like I will I'll deep 703 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 2: dive on something and I'll just i'll do research, like 704 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 2: I obviously will read things, but I don't read books. 705 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 2: I'm much more like this is what I want to know, 706 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 2: and I'm going to go down the rabbit hole and 707 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 2: and find it out. And so for me to decide 708 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 2: to write a book, what's interesting because I have to 709 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 2: sit back and think, well, like why don't I read books? 710 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 2: I have to sort of do what I advice founders 711 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 2: to do is like, well, what's my problem with books? 712 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 2: And my problem with books was that books, you know, one, 713 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 2: don't just get to the point. They don't just say 714 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 2: here's the problem, here's the solution. 715 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: It wouldn't be a book. 716 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 2: It wouldn't be a book, right, It's just you know, 717 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 2: authors have this idea of like it's just too it's 718 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 2: just too much. They it's like I want to open 719 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 2: it and I want to be like, this is what 720 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 2: I'm trying to do is on this page. I wanted 721 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 2: it to truly be like a reference book. And and 722 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: so it was really a challenge for myself to be like, look, 723 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 2: can I communicate this idea in a manner that I 724 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 2: would even read it, like I would even read this book. 725 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 2: And for me, what that had to be is that 726 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 2: it had to be one. It had to answer a 727 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: specific question, which was as a as a founder without 728 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 2: resources that is struggling to get over the hump one, 729 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 2: why am I struggling, and then too, how do I 730 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 2: stop struggling? And then it had to give you specific 731 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 2: things to do. And so that's why the book is 732 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 2: the reason this book is one hundred pages, because the 733 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 2: startup paradox is I you know, I tell you what 734 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 2: that is in two pages, right, But the reason this 735 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 2: book is one hundred pages is because I'm giving you 736 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 2: twenty strategies to do it. And when I'm giving you 737 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 2: those twenty strategies, I'm not only saying this is you 738 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 2: know what to do. I'm telling you how to do it, 739 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 2: and I'm telling you what website to go to, what 740 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 2: things to download. You know how to think about it. 741 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,919 Speaker 2: And so it was really important for me to write 742 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 2: something that I would read. And when I knew I 743 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:00,959 Speaker 2: was ready to read the book, I took. When I 744 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 2: knew that I was ready to release the book, I 745 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,479 Speaker 2: had been working on it and I'd stopped for about 746 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 2: three weeks. And again, I remember I was on a 747 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 2: flight to Costa Rica shout out to to Morgan and 748 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 2: CEO spring Break. I was I was going to see 749 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 2: her retreat for CEO CEO spring Break, and it had 750 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 2: been three weeks. I was like, all right, I'm just 751 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,240 Speaker 2: gonna read the book and and see what I think. 752 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 2: And I was reading the book and I was like, damn, 753 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,720 Speaker 2: like I actually kind of like this. I'm really happy 754 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 2: with it. I was like, Okay, we're ready, let's go. 755 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 2: Let let's let's put it out there. So that was 756 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 2: the process. I love that. 757 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: I think this is my last question. I want to 758 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: be respect for your time, but this one is this one. 759 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I believe there's something special here. And so 760 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: this is quote I love. I just looked up who 761 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 1: wrote it, who said it. It was Lady's name is 762 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: Joan Didion and she said, I don't know what I 763 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,240 Speaker 1: think until I write it down. And I love that quote. 764 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: And it got me thinking about that quote when you 765 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 1: just said what you said, like, you know, you know, 766 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: I'm number one how to read here? But then you 767 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: were going through these twenty different strategies. What did you 768 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: learn having sat down to write out your thoughts? Yeah, 769 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: what became clearer to you? 770 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 2: What that you have? So there were a couple of things. One, 771 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 2: I just want to say that I really rock with 772 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 2: that quote and that concepts. As an engineer, I always 773 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 2: tell people the hardest part about writing code is figuring 774 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,479 Speaker 2: out what to call things right, And I actually spend 775 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 2: a lot of time before I write any code, I 776 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:42,840 Speaker 2: think about, like, Okay, what am I naming this project? 777 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 2: What am I naming this variable? Is? What? I like, 778 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 2: will write the documentation for it out first, and not 779 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 2: a lot of people approach it that way. But the 780 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 2: reason I do that is because, as you've alluded to, 781 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 2: when you can communicate about something and you can actually 782 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 2: write it down, it clarifies. Yeah, it actually clarifies, guy, 783 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 2: what the purpose is, what the intent is, what the 784 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 2: strategy is, and what the approach is. So before I 785 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 2: embark on anything, I name it. I bring it to 786 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 2: life by naming it, writing it down, writing what it is, 787 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 2: writing what its purpose is, because that is so clarifying 788 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 2: to me. And writing this book, there were a couple 789 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 2: of things that were clarifying. One was my voice, and 790 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 2: I think that's so important because when you get to 791 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 2: a place where you you know, you are asked to 792 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,800 Speaker 2: speak you're or you're asked to write things and submit 793 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 2: stuff there, you know you unfortunate that you know you 794 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 2: have a team of people who are like especially now 795 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 2: with a I, they will write it for you. They're like, hey, 796 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 2: you know, here here's your speech, or here your remarks. Here, 797 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 2: here's the blog post we're gonna do. And I always 798 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 2: hated that because nobody, Yeah, I would read things and 799 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 2: I'm just like, ah, this is like this, this does 800 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 2: not sound like me and I do a lot of 801 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 2: things that blavity. But but one thing that that's so interesting, 802 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 2: you know, in me and me and Morgan's relationship is 803 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 2: that whenever Morgan like is gonna publish something or write something, 804 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 2: she always has me copy edited, like I've got it, 805 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 2: Like I'm like the executive copy editor for a lot 806 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 2: of everything. And that's because I realized what was clarifying 807 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 2: for me is like I am so intentional with my 808 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 2: voice and how I say things and wanting to say 809 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 2: things in a way that is authoritative but relatable. And 810 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 2: what I hope people get from reading this book is 811 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 2: that you know, there there there are those books like 812 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 2: the Four Dummies series that like really dumb stuff. I 813 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 2: don't want to say it dumbs it down, but it 814 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:54,240 Speaker 2: really makes it plain code for dummies. Like I didn't. 815 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 2: I didn't want this book to be like that, right. 816 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,840 Speaker 2: I wanted people to read this be yo, this dude 817 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 2: like knows some stuff like he is, he's an expert, 818 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 2: like he knows what he's talking about. But I wanted 819 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 2: it to be so understandable and relatable, and I think 820 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,919 Speaker 2: that that is a very it's a very tough thing 821 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 2: to balance, and writing this one clarified like, yes, that's 822 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:17,880 Speaker 2: how I want people to see me. I want them 823 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,240 Speaker 2: to see me as somebody that knows what he's talking about, 824 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 2: does deep research, is very very knowledgeable. It's not surface 825 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 2: level at all. But I understand what he means. I 826 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 2: get what he's talking about. He makes these things that 827 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 2: were complicated makes sense because they are logical, they are relatable. 828 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 2: I can understand how to apply it to my specific situation. 829 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 2: And so that was very very clarifying for me and 830 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:45,239 Speaker 2: writing this book. 831 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 1: Jeff Nelson, so glad to have you on the show. 832 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,600 Speaker 2: Appreciate it. It's been great, long time coming. Happy to be hearing. 833 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 2: And let's not make it the last time. 834 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: Oh it won't be the last, that's for sure for sure. 835 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: Black Tech Green Money is a production the Blavity Afro 836 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 1: Tech on the Black Effect podcast Networking Nightheartmedia. It's produced 837 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas with the Ad 838 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 1: Digital production support by Kate McDonald, Sayah Ergan and Jada McGee. 839 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: A special thank you to Michael Davis and Lovebeach. Learn 840 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,280 Speaker 1: more about my guests and other technist is an innovators 841 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 1: at afrotech dot com. The video version of this episode 842 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: will drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube, so 843 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: tap in, enjoy your Black Tech Green Money, share us 844 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: to somebody, go get your money. 845 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 2: Peace in love,