WEBVTT - Can Romance Novels Heal Us? 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:02.000 Are you recording? 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:02.400 Hi? 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:03.160 Everyone? 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:06.120 What are we doing today? We're walking into the ripped bodice. 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.879 It's so cute. It's pink, it's perfect pink. It's got 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:13.240 books with a big heart underneath. The snow outside is 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:14.080 looking perfect. 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:15.600 What are we gonna be talking about today? 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:21.000 We're gonna be talking about romance novels. Romance novels have 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:25.640 been around forever, but they're really having a moment. Maybe 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:30.080 you've heard of some little shows called Heated Rivalry or Bridgerton. 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.560 But here's the thing. Even though I'm a person addicted 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:38.840 to dating, romance as a genre isn't really my thing. 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:44.960 Reading novels isn't even quite my thing. So cute tiny Fighter, 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.640 I'm into that. But there's something Girl on Girl author 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:52.159 Sophie Gilbert told me in our episode last year that 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:55.280 made me think, maybe, just maybe I should look into 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:56.319 this whole romance thing. 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:58.600 The thing about romantic fiction, I'd say, more than any 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.680 other genre of culture, is that it's always put women first. 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.480 It's always put women in the center, it's always focused 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.600 on the female gaze. It's always thought about what women 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:09.960 want and what women deserve, and it's been kind of 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:12.319 unapologetic about that throughout its history. 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:17.319 Unapologetically connecting with what I really want is exactly what 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.360 I need this year. And sure, I need to heal 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.440 my relationship to dating insects, but I also need to 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:29.480 heal my relationship to romance itself. Could romance novels heal me? 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:34.400 Could they heal all of us? Yeah? I'm doing it. Yeah, 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:46.880 I'm diving in. I'm hopewordered and welcome to boys over 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.040 a space where we're learning and on learning all the 0:01:50.120 --> 0:02:06.360 myths we're taught about love and relationships. So, as I said, 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.880 I'm new to the romance genre, I'm open to trying, 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:13.960 but I'm a complete beginner. To start my romance journey, 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.680 my producer Emily took me to The Ripped Bodice, a 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:25.040 bookstore in Brooklyn that specializes in romance novels. It's so 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.519 cute to hear the books. Oh my god. The Ripped 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:35.480 Bodice is absolutely adorable. There are open books decorated all 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.960 over the walls, The floor is painted a fun pink design, 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.079 and there are displays of staff picks, book club picks, 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:49.360 and really cute branded merchandise. It feels like a cozy 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:55.560 bookstore and a welcoming community space. We were greeted by 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:58.320 one of the shop's employees as soon as we walked in. 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.760 My name is Joe, I'm a bookseller here. The robotis 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.480 I've been here since we opened about two and a 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:06.320 half years ago. 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:10.320 Josie showed us around the store, and immediately I realized 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:14.800 I didn't actually know what a romance novel was. Sure, 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.040 there are novels that have romance in them, and there's 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:23.320 nonfiction about love and romance, but books classified as romance 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:27.200 novels are their own separate thing. They're full of tropes 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.239 you see in rome comms, and usually features some amount 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.400 of sex. But beyond that, it can get hard to 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:37.400 define because there are so many subgenres that can be 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:38.680 really niche. 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:43.080 A lesbian book about a wedding photographer, a stem fake dating, 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.720 romance and erotica book that is a Hades and Persephone 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.840 retelling historical female Sherlock Holmes. There's a good amount of 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.440 ex's dad or ex's mom. We really cater to like 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.880 very niche specific interests, so people will come in with 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.920 anything that want at any time of the year. 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.160 The most important thing, the thing that really makes something 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.240 count as a romance novel is. 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.920 In order for a romance novel to be classified as 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.200 a romance novel, it has to have a happy ending. 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.839 Really yeah wow, So there are books that, like you 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.960 might think are a romance novel because there's love stories, 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.000 but if they don't end up together, it's not a 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:23.839 romance novel. 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:28.840 This information was fascinating to me, and if I'm being 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:32.360 really honest, it made me immediately skeptical if I could 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.640 really get into the genre. A perfectly curated happy ending 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:41.119 just feels unrealistic to me? Aren't we perpetuating the same 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.320 lies about romance that are at movies and TV shows? 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.840 How could that be helpful? But Josie had a different take. 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:51.720 I think there are parts of romance novels that obviously 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:56.520 can feel unrealistic. I personally find that really enjoyable. I 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.800 love the ridiculousness of like you would never like pretend 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.760 to be my boyfriend for five minutes and then it 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.640 turns out to be your soulmate, Like, obviously there's something 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.279 unrealistic about that, But if you go beyond just like 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.200 what the trope or the premise is necessarily, I think 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:18.440 it does show really great examples of communication. And relationships 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:23.320 around like sex and your feelings and a progression of 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:25.760 you as a person as well. Like a lot of 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.720 these romance books, like yes, I love the sex and 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.919 the romance between them, but my favorites will always be 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.039 ones where the characters also have this like really remarkable 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.679 journey and they kind of come to like a better 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:42.120 place in themselves, in their career, in their relationship with 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:46.280 their family, like things like that, and that is realistic. 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.040 You know, obviously not everyone's going to do it in 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:53.919 four hundred pages, but it is still real people in 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:54.720 real life. 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.440 It also became clear to us as we were talking 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.960 to Josie that reading all of these different kinds of 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.200 romance novels can be a good way to explore what 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.920 you want, not just in love and a partner, but 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:08.800 specifically in sex. 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.000 I had this one customer who came in like multiple 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:16.000 times and she was just making her way through the 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.640 erotica section. But it was really great because she would 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:22.839 come back and be like, I really enjoyed, Like I 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:25.039 gave her a book called Praise, which is a really 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.200 great book, and she was like, I didn't know that, 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:31.800 like I might have a praisekink and reading this showed 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:33.840 that to me, and so then she'd be like, I 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.039 think I want to try like another book where like 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.080 maybe there's like three people involved. And then she came 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.200 back and she was like, actually I want to stick 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:44.719 to two people, Like I think it's like that was 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:45.960 a really nice thing. 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:47.479 And she would come in and. 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:49.840 I'd be like, all right, here we go, like we know, 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.719 like we knew each other, so that was really fun. 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:55.679 I'd like in just coming on, that's such an intimate 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:57.560 role for you to have as a bookseller. I went 0:06:57.640 --> 0:06:59.240 guiding someone through that process. 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.680 Yeah, I would say that being a bookseller here, I 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.320 think it's the most special and the most unique. 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:06.600 Like you, I know. 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:09.800 So much about the people that I talk to, and 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.640 that's awesome because like I'm happy to just help you 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:17.840 out with whatever you're looking for, so judgment involved, like 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:19.240 there's no anything. 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.920 I feel like this world can really be so healing 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:25.680 and in such an intimate way and in kind of 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.280 in a sneaky way too. 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:30.080 It'll sneak up on you like you wouldn't really know. 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.240 I think, especially like you just pick up a romance 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:34.520 book You're like, ah, this is so fun. 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:36.840 Like they pretend to date for a month and like 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.920 la la la, and then you get into. 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.320 It and you meet these characters and she's like, I've 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:47.600 never had an orgasm before, and I don't know how 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:49.720 to tell my partner like what I want in bed 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.200 or like I've always like had text, but I hadn't 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.880 been enjoyed it and I don't know why. And like 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:58.480 now you can explore that in a safe way, and 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:00.640 like you can explore that also in a safe way 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:01.160 reading it. 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.200 How do you feel about like the romantic real world 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:06.560 right now? Like I feel like people are drawn to 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.880 romance right now because people have such a hard time 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:12.280 like finding what they want. 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:16.920 Yeah, I think dating right now is obviously difficult in 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.040 that like obviously with dating apps, like they suck, and 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.360 I think the hardest thing with them to me is 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:24.280 that like people are on them, but they don't really 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:25.160 actually want. 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:26.160 To be in a relationship. 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:30.880 And in comparison to what I read, it's just so 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.240 easy or it's just like you're so. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.320 Mature, but the characters not the people in real life. 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:38.400 No, I don't. 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.600 I don't want to say that it's like unrealistic expectations 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:45.320 because I have examples in my real life of like 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.360 relationships that I can see around me, or even ones 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:51.160 that like I've been in that I'm like, yeah, you're 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:51.960 capable of. 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:53.959 Like doing this. And that's why I also think you'll 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:55.600 see a lot of things that are like my book 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.960 boyfriend would never like I've never heard this thing. It's 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.679 just like you're favorite guy from a book, and it's like. 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:03.760 It's like loving a celebrity crush. 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:06.880 And you can point to like amazing things that they 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:08.960 say and it's like, oh, you can say, like what 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.520 are you doing later? But like Alex Nielsen and people 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.600 even on vacation said, sometimes I feel like I didn't 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.120 exist before you, like you invented me. 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.040 And I'm like, so, like that's actually but that should 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:21.880 be the standard. 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:25.120 Yeah, I don't think that that's asking for too much. 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.800 I think that you should just like adore the woman 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:29.319 that you're with. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:33.280 Josie wasn't alone and loving the way romance novels show 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.880 us such positive depictions of romance. When we talk to 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:40.199 customers in the store, many who had pulled books from 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.920 the heated rivalry shelf, they talked about this too well. 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.640 I also, like I saw even Connor and Hudson that 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:47.880 stars of the show talk. 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.079 About In Case You Live under a Rock, that's Connor's 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.640 story and Hudson Williams, the stars of the Heated Rivalry 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:55.360 TV show. 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:57.839 I saw even Connor and Hudson that stars of the 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.040 show talk about why they think a lot of straight 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:04.880 women read a lot of male male romances or watch 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:07.840 Heated Rivalry or watch you know, consume that kind of content. 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.640 It's because it's a safe space where when there's a 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:14.280 woman involved, there's always a underlying a violence or a 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.440 threat of violence because you can never really know where 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:21.040 it's two men. You can kind of remove yourself from 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.679 the situation and then just get invested in the love story. 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:28.160 And like I loved hearing that from them, as presumably 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:32.000 straight men hearing that, Like, that's why women gravitate towards 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.440 stories that technically don't involve them is because they are 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.679 able to reap the positive benefits of it without the 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.080 fear of violence, sexual or otherwise. 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.240 And maybe see men interacting in a relationship with someone 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.319 who they like, truly see as they're equal in some 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:49.760 ways exactly. 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:54.320 Like any sort of hetero relationship, whether you're conscious of 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.880 it or not, Like we as women are like you 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.920 never one hundred percent trust that something bad's not going 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.600 to happen, whether it's your emotional or your physical safety. 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:07.800 And so that's one of the things that I like 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.440 about male male romances, or even lesbian romances too, because 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:15.320 again it's two women who see themselves as equal to 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.800 each other in a certain way and then they're then 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.080 they just have to do the rest of the relationship part. 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.719 But all of this was starting to convince me that 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.480 maybe some of my issues related to love and romance 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.479 could be solved by a book. So I asked Josie 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.520 if she had any recommendations. Can ask you a question, 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:38.839 maybe a suggestion on a book for me and my 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:42.560 personal sexual world and the things I struggle with, and 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.640 then you can tell me maybe what I should read. 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.120 Hopefully it's like there's a book that can go along 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:52.280 with this, maybe a romance novel for women who sleep 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.880 with men but kind of hate men and are trying 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.320 trying to heal that. I was a little scared that 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:04.640 I had stumped Josie with my specific personal issues, but 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.640 as we started walking around the store, she kept bringing 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.080 me option after option after option. 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:16.280 You asked me a question and then and then the okay. 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.240 The book she brought me was called Well actually by 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.839 Mazy Eddings. I've adored this book. 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:27.679 It's like chicken Shop fan fiction basically, but the premise 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.000 of this one is that she is the host obviously, 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:35.360 and her ex from college hosts to podcasts. It's all 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.160 about like breaking down masculinity and like teaching men to 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:38.720 be better. 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.760 In relationships and like is this like great guy? 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.720 And she gots drunk one night and posts online and 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.120 is like, oh, it's so funny that like you say 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:50.080 all these things, but like you couldn't even make me 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.160 come and like you ghosted me and all this stuff. 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.480 So his people reach out to her people, and he's like, 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:58.800 let me show you that I've changed. 0:12:58.920 --> 0:12:59.760 Let me show you that, like. 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.840 I have improved big, like I hate all men. She's 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:08.360 also pant sexual and he's awesome. 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:14.040 So I bought it me a devoted non fiction girly 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:21.439 bought a romance novel every day. When we left the 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.640 Ripped Bodice, I was genuinely excited to read the book. 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:31.320 Oh God, how do you feel has your perspective change 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:30.240 at all? 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:38.040 You know? I like see, but things did not go 0:13:38.120 --> 0:14:00.400 as planned. So let me be honest, I could not 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.200 bring myself to read the romance novel that Josie had 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:07.280 so carefully and sweetly picked out for me. I needed 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:10.640 to talk through my feelings about why. So I came 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.200 clean to Emily when we met up a week later 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:18.640 in the studio. We bought the fiction novel that I've 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:20.800 meant to have read for the past week, and I 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:22.840 can't crack it open. It's just like sitting on my 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.440 table and I cannot bring myself to open it. 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.760 I want to get into that because you have this 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:34.040 stigma just against fiction in general. I feel like this 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:36.240 is one of the hotter takes from you. 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:43.520 Ah, my stigma against fiction, maybe my resistance, maybe my 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.280 hesitance towards fiction. 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.280 I think romance novels have a stigma against them that 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:52.080 adds another layer onto that because a lot of historically 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.200 it's like these are silly books for girls. And I 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.040 think we are in a moment right now with like 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:00.560 Bridgerton heated rivalry of like these stories are power. People 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.480 are flocking to them. They've been popular forever, but now 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.240 they're becoming mainstream and what are people seeing in them? 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.800 Why are they so appealing to people? And like you 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.680 have not been flocking to them, So what is your 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:14.680 resistance to it? 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.280 Yeah, I have realized about myself in the past week 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:24.680 or so that I am such a pessimist about love 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.880 and romance, Like I have a really hard time even 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:29.640 though I interact with it a lot and on a 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.440 personal level, the reality sort of is is that I 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:36.200 don't believe in it. To mention it quickly, like realizing 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.360 that the last time I read a fiction novel about 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.920 romance was while my parents were getting a divorce. I 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.880 was like, oh, I think we just unlocked something here. 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.400 There might have been, Oh, there might have been something 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.800 to that, Like surely it was just timing. And my 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.640 best friend Atlanta and her mom were like also reading Twilight, 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:55.840 so there was a big like sort of community piece 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.680 to it and zeitgeist piece to it. 0:15:58.680 --> 0:15:59.800 It was Twilight that you were reading. 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:02.560 It was twil Okay, Yeah, I'm like seventh grade and 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.440 I was just like I was so depressed and just 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.280 was like reading Twilight and just feeling so angsty as fuck, 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:11.560 and I'm like, oh, my parents were like all seventh grade. 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:14.200 Also, if I may make the connection, that was when 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:18.000 you had your first boyfriend, right, Yeah, like real experience 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:19.120 of a relationship. 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.120 Yeah, when I was like having like full blown sex 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:26.040 and secret bleep. But yeah, when I was like really 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:32.160 in an extremely intimate relationship with someone who I trusted 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:34.520 in a lot of ways, but at the same time 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:38.560 was like probably too young for what was happening in 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.520 sort of like the lack of supervision that we had 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:46.240 in our relationship with something I probably subconsciously felt a 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.000 little out of control of, you know, right, and a 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:50.960 little bit sad about. 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.680 Yeah, signs are pointing to me like it is these 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.880 tightly a romance novel The conception of them being like 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.800 a tightly packaged kind of easy story with a happy 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:06.760 ending feels so opposite to your experience and your formative years, would. 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:10.960 You read, Yeah, of course, Yeah, like being raised with 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.439 parents who just like undoubtedly never should have been together. 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:17.359 I mean the truth is, like I think they both 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:21.000 have happy endings. Like my mom is with Joe and 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.800 my dad is with his girlfriend, and I think they're 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.200 much better suited. And like I see my mom and 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.160 Joe and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's a model 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.120 relationship to me. And I think that like something that 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.720 holds me back in my personal love life is truly 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.040 the fear of getting divorced, you know, is like really 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.720 truth child of divorce here too, I know what I mean, 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:43.920 Like that's my biggest fear. 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.000 But then I think, what these like this romance stuff 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.240 is showing us is like what if you gave yourself 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:50.719 the room to think that it could altern out? 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:57.600 Okay, ah, God, Okay. So this is becoming more therapy 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.840 session than romance novel exploration, but it's seeming more and 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.000 more like the two are linked, which is why I 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:07.480 wanted to talk with someone else to get an even 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.680 deeper understanding of these issues and how they show up 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.560 when people open themselves up to the wide world of 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:20.679 romance novels. Thankfully we found the perfect person to speak with, 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.879 sange Welcome to boy Sober, Thank you, thank you. 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:27.840 I'm excited to be here. 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:31.320 SANJAA. Basker is both a clinical psychologist and. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.400 In my third year of my PhD, but my peer 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:39.360 graduation counseling psychic cool yeah like health bodies, sex, gender. 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.679 The full opefully, and a romance connoisseur. 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.159 I started reading romance novels in twenty nineteen, which is 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:47.119 actually quite recent in the grand scheme of things. Like 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.000 I read close to five hundred romance novels, like between 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.000 five hundred one thousand romance novels in my first year. 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.720 Like, oh my gosh, I would say. Sang also makes 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.280 book talk videos about romance novels. She is a deep 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:03.280 well of knowledge on this topic and specializes in genres 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:07.919 you might not even know existed, like monster romance, and 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.199 you may or may not be surprised to hear that 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.320 her PhD work comes up a lot when she talks 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.320 about these different worlds of romance. 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.200 There have been weirdly convergences with my romance reading interests 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:22.520 in recent years. So I think the better I've become 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:28.520 as a therapist, the more I've seen links with reading romance. 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:30.560 Yeah, any links that come to mind. 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.720 I was talking to someone recently about like the concept 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.840 of yearning, yes, like the sort of need for a 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:41.159 romance novel to capture yearning as this like endless process, 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.640 like you never really want full satisfaction in a romance novel, 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:47.960 or you do you want Catharsis, like you want like 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:51.760 the happily ever after, You want it to be sellable 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:53.600 in the way of like, yeah, we believe that these 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:56.199 people will stay together forever. We don't want them to 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.399 become boring. Like a really good romance novel means like 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.000 you are sad when they leave the page because you 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.560 know that their lives are going to be interesting in 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.920 the ever after. And I think about that a lot 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.000 in the context of therapy too, where like we get 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.520 people for a tiny slice of their life and we 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:15.600 have the opportunity to like make an impression on them 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:17.240 in their lives and then send them off into the 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.280 world and like hope that they will be like happily 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.119 ever after, but you can't ever quite know. 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:26.280 So what do you think romance novels kind of do 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:28.720 for you? And if you had one that you could 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.440 pick out specifically that kind of like speaks to how 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:36.200 people really love? Does one come to mind? Oh my god, 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.840 just one? I guess. 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.200 I'm also curious if you've read a lot of romance. 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:42.760 I am not here you knew to the genre. 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:44.080 I'm not a fiction girl. 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:45.520 Is it the same for TV? 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:45.720 Like? 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.280 Are you also knowledging? 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:50.480 I haven't watched Heated Rivalry? What do you think about 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:51.159 Heated Rivalry? 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:55.239 What was your Obviously I fucking love it, like it 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:57.480 consumed me mind, body, and soul for the better part 0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:59.520 of two months, and it's still in the background. 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:01.320 You get it. I am trying to rein it in 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:02.359 and be chill and. 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:05.560 Be cool, but I actually cannot, Like I just can't. 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.000 It's like the kind of romance media that we never 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:09.600 we never fucking get anymore. 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:10.800 Like what do you mean by that? What do you 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:12.160 mean we never get a romance like. 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.800 This because we never get romance that like actually sees 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:20.199 romance's plot, Like, say more, Bridgerton is so preoccupied with 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:22.560 all of these side plots with side characters about their 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.280 financial circumstances and impressing the queen and this and that 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:27.440 and That's not the work of the romance is these 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.320 two or more people who are falling in love, and 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:33.600 yet in Bridgerton they get shockingly little screen time. But 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:37.360 like so many film and TV adaptations of romance that 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:42.679 are like beyond hallmark quality, do not like actually writing 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:45.960