1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:02,000 Speaker 1: Are you recording? 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 2: Hi? 3 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 3: Everyone? 4 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: What are we doing today? We're walking into the ripped bodice. 5 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: It's so cute. It's pink, it's perfect pink. It's got 6 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: books with a big heart underneath. The snow outside is 7 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: looking perfect. 8 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 4: What are we gonna be talking about today? 9 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking about romance novels. Romance novels have 10 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: been around forever, but they're really having a moment. Maybe 11 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: you've heard of some little shows called Heated Rivalry or Bridgerton. 12 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Even though I'm a person addicted 13 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: to dating, romance as a genre isn't really my thing. 14 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: Reading novels isn't even quite my thing. So cute tiny Fighter, 15 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: I'm into that. But there's something Girl on Girl author 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: Sophie Gilbert told me in our episode last year that 17 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: made me think, maybe, just maybe I should look into 18 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:56,319 Speaker 1: this whole romance thing. 19 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 2: The thing about romantic fiction, I'd say, more than any 20 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: other genre of culture, is that it's always put women first. 21 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 2: It's always put women in the center, it's always focused 22 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 2: on the female gaze. It's always thought about what women 23 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 2: want and what women deserve, and it's been kind of 24 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 2: unapologetic about that throughout its history. 25 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: Unapologetically connecting with what I really want is exactly what 26 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: I need this year. And sure, I need to heal 27 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: my relationship to dating insects, but I also need to 28 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: heal my relationship to romance itself. Could romance novels heal me? 29 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: Could they heal all of us? Yeah? I'm doing it. Yeah, 30 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: I'm diving in. I'm hopewordered and welcome to boys over 31 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: a space where we're learning and on learning all the 32 00:01:50,120 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: myths we're taught about love and relationships. So, as I said, 33 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: I'm new to the romance genre, I'm open to trying, 34 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: but I'm a complete beginner. To start my romance journey, 35 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: my producer Emily took me to The Ripped Bodice, a 36 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: bookstore in Brooklyn that specializes in romance novels. It's so 37 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 1: cute to hear the books. Oh my god. The Ripped 38 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: Bodice is absolutely adorable. There are open books decorated all 39 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: over the walls, The floor is painted a fun pink design, 40 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: and there are displays of staff picks, book club picks, 41 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: and really cute branded merchandise. It feels like a cozy 42 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: bookstore and a welcoming community space. We were greeted by 43 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: one of the shop's employees as soon as we walked in. 44 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 5: My name is Joe, I'm a bookseller here. The robotis 45 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 5: I've been here since we opened about two and a 46 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 5: half years ago. 47 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: Josie showed us around the store, and immediately I realized 48 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: I didn't actually know what a romance novel was. Sure, 49 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: there are novels that have romance in them, and there's 50 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: nonfiction about love and romance, but books classified as romance 51 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: novels are their own separate thing. They're full of tropes 52 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: you see in rome comms, and usually features some amount 53 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: of sex. But beyond that, it can get hard to 54 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: define because there are so many subgenres that can be 55 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: really niche. 56 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 5: A lesbian book about a wedding photographer, a stem fake dating, 57 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 5: romance and erotica book that is a Hades and Persephone 58 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 5: retelling historical female Sherlock Holmes. There's a good amount of 59 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 5: ex's dad or ex's mom. We really cater to like 60 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 5: very niche specific interests, so people will come in with 61 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 5: anything that want at any time of the year. 62 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: The most important thing, the thing that really makes something 63 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: count as a romance novel is. 64 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 5: In order for a romance novel to be classified as 65 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 5: a romance novel, it has to have a happy ending. 66 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 5: Really yeah wow, So there are books that, like you 67 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 5: might think are a romance novel because there's love stories, 68 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 5: but if they don't end up together, it's not a 69 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 5: romance novel. 70 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: This information was fascinating to me, and if I'm being 71 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: really honest, it made me immediately skeptical if I could 72 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: really get into the genre. A perfectly curated happy ending 73 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:41,119 Speaker 1: just feels unrealistic to me? Aren't we perpetuating the same 74 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: lies about romance that are at movies and TV shows? 75 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: How could that be helpful? But Josie had a different take. 76 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 5: I think there are parts of romance novels that obviously 77 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 5: can feel unrealistic. I personally find that really enjoyable. I 78 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 5: love the ridiculousness of like you would never like pretend 79 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 5: to be my boyfriend for five minutes and then it 80 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 5: turns out to be your soulmate, Like, obviously there's something 81 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 5: unrealistic about that, But if you go beyond just like 82 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 5: what the trope or the premise is necessarily, I think 83 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 5: it does show really great examples of communication. And relationships 84 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 5: around like sex and your feelings and a progression of 85 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 5: you as a person as well. Like a lot of 86 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 5: these romance books, like yes, I love the sex and 87 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 5: the romance between them, but my favorites will always be 88 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 5: ones where the characters also have this like really remarkable 89 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,679 Speaker 5: journey and they kind of come to like a better 90 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 5: place in themselves, in their career, in their relationship with 91 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 5: their family, like things like that, and that is realistic. 92 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 5: You know, obviously not everyone's going to do it in 93 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 5: four hundred pages, but it is still real people in 94 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 5: real life. 95 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: It also became clear to us as we were talking 96 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: to Josie that reading all of these different kinds of 97 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: romance novels can be a good way to explore what 98 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: you want, not just in love and a partner, but 99 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: specifically in sex. 100 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 5: I had this one customer who came in like multiple 101 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 5: times and she was just making her way through the 102 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 5: erotica section. But it was really great because she would 103 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 5: come back and be like, I really enjoyed, Like I 104 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 5: gave her a book called Praise, which is a really 105 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 5: great book, and she was like, I didn't know that, 106 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 5: like I might have a praisekink and reading this showed 107 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 5: that to me, and so then she'd be like, I 108 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 5: think I want to try like another book where like 109 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 5: maybe there's like three people involved. And then she came 110 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 5: back and she was like, actually I want to stick 111 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 5: to two people, Like I think it's like that was 112 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 5: a really nice thing. 113 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 6: And she would come in and. 114 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 5: I'd be like, all right, here we go, like we know, 115 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 5: like we knew each other, so that was really fun. 116 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,679 Speaker 4: I'd like in just coming on, that's such an intimate 117 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 4: role for you to have as a bookseller. I went 118 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 4: guiding someone through that process. 119 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, I would say that being a bookseller here, I 120 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 5: think it's the most special and the most unique. 121 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: Like you, I know. 122 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 5: So much about the people that I talk to, and 123 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 5: that's awesome because like I'm happy to just help you 124 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 5: out with whatever you're looking for, so judgment involved, like 125 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 5: there's no anything. 126 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: I feel like this world can really be so healing 127 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: and in such an intimate way and in kind of 128 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: in a sneaky way too. 129 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 5: It'll sneak up on you like you wouldn't really know. 130 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 5: I think, especially like you just pick up a romance 131 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 5: book You're like, ah, this is so fun. 132 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 6: Like they pretend to date for a month and like 133 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 6: la la la, and then you get into. 134 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 5: It and you meet these characters and she's like, I've 135 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 5: never had an orgasm before, and I don't know how 136 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 5: to tell my partner like what I want in bed 137 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 5: or like I've always like had text, but I hadn't 138 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 5: been enjoyed it and I don't know why. And like 139 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 5: now you can explore that in a safe way, and 140 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 5: like you can explore that also in a safe way 141 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 5: reading it. 142 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: How do you feel about like the romantic real world 143 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: right now? Like I feel like people are drawn to 144 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: romance right now because people have such a hard time 145 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: like finding what they want. 146 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think dating right now is obviously difficult in 147 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 5: that like obviously with dating apps, like they suck, and 148 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 5: I think the hardest thing with them to me is 149 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 5: that like people are on them, but they don't really 150 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 5: actually want. 151 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 6: To be in a relationship. 152 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 5: And in comparison to what I read, it's just so 153 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 5: easy or it's just like you're so. 154 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 6: Mature, but the characters not the people in real life. 155 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 3: No, I don't. 156 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 5: I don't want to say that it's like unrealistic expectations 157 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 5: because I have examples in my real life of like 158 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 5: relationships that I can see around me, or even ones 159 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 5: that like I've been in that I'm like, yeah, you're 160 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 5: capable of. 161 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 6: Like doing this. And that's why I also think you'll 162 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 6: see a lot of things that are like my book 163 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 6: boyfriend would never like I've never heard this thing. It's 164 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 6: just like you're favorite guy from a book, and it's like. 165 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: It's like loving a celebrity crush. 166 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 5: And you can point to like amazing things that they 167 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 5: say and it's like, oh, you can say, like what 168 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 5: are you doing later? But like Alex Nielsen and people 169 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 5: even on vacation said, sometimes I feel like I didn't 170 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 5: exist before you, like you invented me. 171 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 6: And I'm like, so, like that's actually but that should 172 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 6: be the standard. 173 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think that that's asking for too much. 174 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 5: I think that you should just like adore the woman 175 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 5: that you're with. 176 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: Josie wasn't alone and loving the way romance novels show 177 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: us such positive depictions of romance. When we talk to 178 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: customers in the store, many who had pulled books from 179 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: the heated rivalry shelf, they talked about this too well. 180 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 7: I also, like I saw even Connor and Hudson that 181 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 7: stars of the show talk. 182 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: About In Case You Live under a Rock, that's Connor's 183 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: story and Hudson Williams, the stars of the Heated Rivalry 184 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: TV show. 185 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 7: I saw even Connor and Hudson that stars of the 186 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 7: show talk about why they think a lot of straight 187 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 7: women read a lot of male male romances or watch 188 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 7: Heated Rivalry or watch you know, consume that kind of content. 189 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 7: It's because it's a safe space where when there's a 190 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 7: woman involved, there's always a underlying a violence or a 191 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 7: threat of violence because you can never really know where 192 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 7: it's two men. You can kind of remove yourself from 193 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 7: the situation and then just get invested in the love story. 194 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 7: And like I loved hearing that from them, as presumably 195 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 7: straight men hearing that, Like, that's why women gravitate towards 196 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 7: stories that technically don't involve them is because they are 197 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 7: able to reap the positive benefits of it without the 198 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 7: fear of violence, sexual or otherwise. 199 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: And maybe see men interacting in a relationship with someone 200 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: who they like, truly see as they're equal in some 201 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: ways exactly. 202 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 7: Like any sort of hetero relationship, whether you're conscious of 203 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 7: it or not, Like we as women are like you 204 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 7: never one hundred percent trust that something bad's not going 205 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 7: to happen, whether it's your emotional or your physical safety. 206 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 7: And so that's one of the things that I like 207 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 7: about male male romances, or even lesbian romances too, because 208 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 7: again it's two women who see themselves as equal to 209 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 7: each other in a certain way and then they're then 210 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 7: they just have to do the rest of the relationship part. 211 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: But all of this was starting to convince me that 212 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: maybe some of my issues related to love and romance 213 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,479 Speaker 1: could be solved by a book. So I asked Josie 214 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: if she had any recommendations. Can ask you a question, 215 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: maybe a suggestion on a book for me and my 216 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: personal sexual world and the things I struggle with, and 217 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: then you can tell me maybe what I should read. 218 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: Hopefully it's like there's a book that can go along 219 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: with this, maybe a romance novel for women who sleep 220 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: with men but kind of hate men and are trying 221 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: trying to heal that. I was a little scared that 222 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: I had stumped Josie with my specific personal issues, but 223 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: as we started walking around the store, she kept bringing 224 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: me option after option after option. 225 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 6: You asked me a question and then and then the okay. 226 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: The book she brought me was called Well actually by 227 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 1: Mazy Eddings. I've adored this book. 228 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 5: It's like chicken Shop fan fiction basically, but the premise 229 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 5: of this one is that she is the host obviously, 230 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 5: and her ex from college hosts to podcasts. It's all 231 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 5: about like breaking down masculinity and like teaching men to 232 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 5: be better. 233 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 6: In relationships and like is this like great guy? 234 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 5: And she gots drunk one night and posts online and 235 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 5: is like, oh, it's so funny that like you say 236 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 5: all these things, but like you couldn't even make me 237 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 5: come and like you ghosted me and all this stuff. 238 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 5: So his people reach out to her people, and he's like, 239 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 5: let me show you that I've changed. 240 00:12:58,920 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: Let me show you that, like. 241 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 5: I have improved big, like I hate all men. She's 242 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 5: also pant sexual and he's awesome. 243 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: So I bought it me a devoted non fiction girly 244 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 1: bought a romance novel every day. When we left the 245 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: Ripped Bodice, I was genuinely excited to read the book. 246 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 4: Oh God, how do you feel has your perspective change 247 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 4: at all? 248 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: You know? I like see, but things did not go 249 00:13:38,120 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: as planned. So let me be honest, I could not 250 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: bring myself to read the romance novel that Josie had 251 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: so carefully and sweetly picked out for me. I needed 252 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: to talk through my feelings about why. So I came 253 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: clean to Emily when we met up a week later 254 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: in the studio. We bought the fiction novel that I've 255 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: meant to have read for the past week, and I 256 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: can't crack it open. It's just like sitting on my 257 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: table and I cannot bring myself to open it. 258 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 4: I want to get into that because you have this 259 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 4: stigma just against fiction in general. I feel like this 260 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 4: is one of the hotter takes from you. 261 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: Ah, my stigma against fiction, maybe my resistance, maybe my 262 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: hesitance towards fiction. 263 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 4: I think romance novels have a stigma against them that 264 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 4: adds another layer onto that because a lot of historically 265 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 4: it's like these are silly books for girls. And I 266 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 4: think we are in a moment right now with like 267 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 4: Bridgerton heated rivalry of like these stories are power. People 268 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 4: are flocking to them. They've been popular forever, but now 269 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 4: they're becoming mainstream and what are people seeing in them? 270 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 4: Why are they so appealing to people? And like you 271 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 4: have not been flocking to them, So what is your 272 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 4: resistance to it? 273 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I have realized about myself in the past week 274 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: or so that I am such a pessimist about love 275 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: and romance, Like I have a really hard time even 276 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: though I interact with it a lot and on a 277 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: personal level, the reality sort of is is that I 278 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: don't believe in it. To mention it quickly, like realizing 279 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: that the last time I read a fiction novel about 280 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: romance was while my parents were getting a divorce. I 281 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: was like, oh, I think we just unlocked something here. 282 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: There might have been, Oh, there might have been something 283 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: to that, Like surely it was just timing. And my 284 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: best friend Atlanta and her mom were like also reading Twilight, 285 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: so there was a big like sort of community piece 286 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: to it and zeitgeist piece to it. 287 00:15:58,680 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 4: It was Twilight that you were reading. 288 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: It was twil Okay, Yeah, I'm like seventh grade and 289 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: I was just like I was so depressed and just 290 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: was like reading Twilight and just feeling so angsty as fuck, 291 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, my parents were like all seventh grade. 292 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 4: Also, if I may make the connection, that was when 293 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 4: you had your first boyfriend, right, Yeah, like real experience 294 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 4: of a relationship. 295 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, when I was like having like full blown sex 296 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: and secret bleep. But yeah, when I was like really 297 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: in an extremely intimate relationship with someone who I trusted 298 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, but at the same time 299 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: was like probably too young for what was happening in 300 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: sort of like the lack of supervision that we had 301 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: in our relationship with something I probably subconsciously felt a 302 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: little out of control of, you know, right, and a 303 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: little bit sad about. 304 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, signs are pointing to me like it is these 305 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 4: tightly a romance novel The conception of them being like 306 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 4: a tightly packaged kind of easy story with a happy 307 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 4: ending feels so opposite to your experience and your formative years, would. 308 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: You read, Yeah, of course, Yeah, like being raised with 309 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: parents who just like undoubtedly never should have been together. 310 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: I mean the truth is, like I think they both 311 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: have happy endings. Like my mom is with Joe and 312 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: my dad is with his girlfriend, and I think they're 313 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: much better suited. And like I see my mom and 314 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: Joe and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's a model 315 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: relationship to me. And I think that like something that 316 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: holds me back in my personal love life is truly 317 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: the fear of getting divorced, you know, is like really 318 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: truth child of divorce here too, I know what I mean, 319 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: Like that's my biggest fear. 320 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 4: But then I think, what these like this romance stuff 321 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 4: is showing us is like what if you gave yourself 322 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 4: the room to think that it could altern out? 323 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: Okay, ah, God, Okay. So this is becoming more therapy 324 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: session than romance novel exploration, but it's seeming more and 325 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: more like the two are linked, which is why I 326 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: wanted to talk with someone else to get an even 327 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: deeper understanding of these issues and how they show up 328 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: when people open themselves up to the wide world of 329 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: romance novels. Thankfully we found the perfect person to speak with, 330 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: sange Welcome to boy Sober, Thank you, thank you. 331 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 3: I'm excited to be here. 332 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: SANJAA. Basker is both a clinical psychologist and. 333 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 3: In my third year of my PhD, but my peer 334 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 3: graduation counseling psychic cool yeah like health bodies, sex, gender. 335 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: The full opefully, and a romance connoisseur. 336 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 3: I started reading romance novels in twenty nineteen, which is 337 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 3: actually quite recent in the grand scheme of things. Like 338 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 3: I read close to five hundred romance novels, like between 339 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 3: five hundred one thousand romance novels in my first year. 340 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: Like, oh my gosh, I would say. Sang also makes 341 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: book talk videos about romance novels. She is a deep 342 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: well of knowledge on this topic and specializes in genres 343 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 1: you might not even know existed, like monster romance, and 344 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: you may or may not be surprised to hear that 345 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: her PhD work comes up a lot when she talks 346 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: about these different worlds of romance. 347 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 3: There have been weirdly convergences with my romance reading interests 348 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 3: in recent years. So I think the better I've become 349 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 3: as a therapist, the more I've seen links with reading romance. 350 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, any links that come to mind. 351 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 3: I was talking to someone recently about like the concept 352 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 3: of yearning, yes, like the sort of need for a 353 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 3: romance novel to capture yearning as this like endless process, 354 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 3: like you never really want full satisfaction in a romance novel, 355 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 3: or you do you want Catharsis, like you want like 356 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: the happily ever after, You want it to be sellable 357 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 3: in the way of like, yeah, we believe that these 358 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 3: people will stay together forever. We don't want them to 359 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 3: become boring. Like a really good romance novel means like 360 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 3: you are sad when they leave the page because you 361 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 3: know that their lives are going to be interesting in 362 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 3: the ever after. And I think about that a lot 363 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 3: in the context of therapy too, where like we get 364 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 3: people for a tiny slice of their life and we 365 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 3: have the opportunity to like make an impression on them 366 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 3: in their lives and then send them off into the 367 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 3: world and like hope that they will be like happily 368 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 3: ever after, but you can't ever quite know. 369 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: So what do you think romance novels kind of do 370 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: for you? And if you had one that you could 371 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: pick out specifically that kind of like speaks to how 372 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: people really love? Does one come to mind? Oh my god, 373 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: just one? I guess. 374 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 3: I'm also curious if you've read a lot of romance. 375 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 3: I am not here you knew to the genre. 376 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: I'm not a fiction girl. 377 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 3: Is it the same for TV? 378 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 6: Like? 379 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 3: Are you also knowledging? 380 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: I haven't watched Heated Rivalry? What do you think about 381 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: Heated Rivalry? 382 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,239 Speaker 3: What was your Obviously I fucking love it, like it 383 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 3: consumed me mind, body, and soul for the better part 384 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 3: of two months, and it's still in the background. 385 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: You get it. I am trying to rein it in 386 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: and be chill and. 387 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 3: Be cool, but I actually cannot, Like I just can't. 388 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 3: It's like the kind of romance media that we never 389 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 3: we never fucking get anymore. 390 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: Like what do you mean by that? What do you 391 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: mean we never get a romance like. 392 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 3: This because we never get romance that like actually sees 393 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 3: romance's plot, Like, say more, Bridgerton is so preoccupied with 394 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 3: all of these side plots with side characters about their 395 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: financial circumstances and impressing the queen and this and that 396 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 3: and That's not the work of the romance is these 397 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 3: two or more people who are falling in love, and 398 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 3: yet in Bridgerton they get shockingly little screen time. But 399 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 3: like so many film and TV adaptations of romance that 400 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 3: are like beyond hallmark quality, do not like actually writing 401 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 3: dialogue and action between two main characters, because trying to 402 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 3: convey intimate stakes on screen is really fucking hard. But 403 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 3: heated rivalry is relentlessly about two people on screen, with 404 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 3: the like glaring exception of episode three, which is another 405 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 3: couple who you are laser focused on the intimate stakes 406 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 3: are all there are? Like everything is internal, everything is interior. 407 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 3: And first, that's incredibly hard to write, Like it's hard 408 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 3: to write when you have a book. It is exceptionally hard. 409 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 3: When you were writing it for TV. 410 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: Were you're reading Twilight and like middle school? 411 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: Oh? 412 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, I was tuned in. Oh my gosh, I think, 413 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: did you? Or yeah, I did that. I think about it. 414 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: Twilight got me by the throat. Yeah yeah, it had me. 415 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: It had me in its grasp. My parents were going 416 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: through a divorce. I was diving in. I was loving 417 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: it the prospect of immortal love. But I don't think 418 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: i've like fallen in love with a fictional love story 419 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: like that. Maybe since I just I don't know, I 420 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: haven't been able to give it my attention. 421 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 3: I do have kind of a theory about how that happens, though, 422 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 3: I do think like reading Romance made me a more 423 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 3: earnest and sincere person. Like I think it made me 424 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 3: tolerate stuff that I previously would have regarded as like 425 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 3: corny or overly sincere. 426 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: Like sickly sweet. 427 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 3: In a way, I think in order to read Romance, 428 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 3: you need to be able to access that place. 429 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: Like for yourself and some Yeah, maybe I have too 430 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: much judgment about romance. I was surprised to find out 431 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: that all romance novels have to end with a happy ending. Absolutely, 432 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: I was shocked about that. What's your take on that? 433 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: Do you think that's for the best? 434 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 3: I think it's a genre convention, you know, in the 435 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 3: way that like a murder mystery needs a murderer, like 436 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 3: horror needs some jump scares, like it feels I think 437 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 3: essential in that if you know where you are going, 438 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 3: then the real work happens in process, like bring therapy 439 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 3: speak back into it. When clinicians are always talking about 440 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 3: the difference between the content of a session and the 441 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 3: process of a session, so like the content and substance 442 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 3: of what a client says versus the process of how 443 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 3: it is being so at what point in what way? 444 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 3: Like it's not enough when a client is like, yeah, 445 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,360 Speaker 3: and my parents divorced, when X, Y and Z happened, 446 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 3: it's why tell me in our fifth session? Why tell 447 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 3: me in this way? Why be so flippant about it? 448 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 3: Why keep pushing right past it? Like that's process In 449 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 3: that same way when reading a romance novel, because you 450 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 3: know the destination of this like finite container. You're paying 451 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 3: attention not just to oh there is only one bed happening, 452 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 3: or X, Y and Z trope is at work. You 453 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 3: are looking at like the real minutia of delivery. So 454 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 3: it becomes like a reorientation of like what you are 455 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 3: looking at and what you're driving towards. Arguably, in any reading, 456 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 3: you should be paying attention to the journey and not 457 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 3: just the destination. 458 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: I'm guilty of that. I want to show. I'll fast forward, yeah, 459 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: I'll scoot really yeah sometimes and sometimes I'll get pages 460 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: in books. Okay, yeah, okay. 461 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 3: Are you one of the people who like read the 462 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 3: last chapter and then No, I've. 463 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: Never read the last chapter first and then gone back. 464 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: But like, I'm definitely not a processed person. I'm a 465 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: destinations interesting like it, you know, kind of shows something 466 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: about my personal life too. 467 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 3: Is it that you avoid the friction of process? Like 468 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 3: is it the friction of like what happens before we 469 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 3: get to resolution that you're like circumventing. 470 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like a feeling of discomfort that I can't 471 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 1: quite overcome, and I just have to sort of like 472 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: opt out otherwise, Like you know, but this is something 473 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: I could totally work on. What do you think women 474 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: are looking to get out of the romance they're falling 475 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: in love with now? 476 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 3: I think surging into the pandemic, people had a lot 477 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 3: of time to pick up books of all kinds, And 478 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 3: it's entirely possible that, like the teenage to twenties demographic 479 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 3: that was like at home with their parents, all of 480 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 3: a sudden, we're like, well, seems like romance might be 481 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 3: a fun escapist big air quotes. 482 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: Why the big air quotes around escapist? 483 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 3: I think escapism is a big way that people formulate 484 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 3: their relationship to romance. Yeah, but I personally struggle with that, 485 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 3: where like, romance has never been about escaping something, it 486 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 3: has been an entry point into something else. When people 487 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,959 Speaker 3: say escapist, I'm like, where are you going? 488 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: Like? 489 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 3: Is it that like postgender, post racial, post political world? 490 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 3: Like is that where you think you are going? 491 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: A very safe world? Right? Right? 492 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 3: And in that case, I'm like, are you paying attention? 493 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 3: Like That's that's sort of my question because romance novels, 494 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 3: even when they are ostensibly all of those things, are 495 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 3: really not well. 496 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 1: Because they're close enough, there has to be some kind 497 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: of risk otherwise who cares like you don't want to 498 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: read a story where there's like no nothing like you 499 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: got worrying see. 500 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 3: Part of the reason why this is tricky is because 501 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 3: I think that the things people want from romance and 502 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 3: what they say they want from romance or two different things. 503 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 3: Like I think a lot of people are making what 504 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 3: they see as like politically aligned statements about their desire 505 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 3: for like holy mutualistic, like unencumbered by power relationships. A 506 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 3: lot of contemporary romance traffics in like a distinctly post racial, 507 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 3: post gender, post power world where like everyone is equitable 508 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 3: and no one is held apart by like structures of 509 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 3: suffering or power or oppression. 510 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: And you think that's something we sort of like claim 511 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: to want. Sure we do, we claim it, But what 512 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: do you think maybe is our reality for what we want. 513 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 3: I think that when we're looking to feel something by 514 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 3: reading something, power has to be a part of the 515 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 3: equation and the explosive exploration of power, both in like 516 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 3: productive and counterproductive ways. I think is it's sssari for 517 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 3: a story to be interesting, so be treated by Emily 518 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 3: Henry like one of the most like iconic twenty twenties 519 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 3: romance novels like Change the Game, right, Like it is 520 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 3: between a romance writer and a literary fiction writer who 521 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 3: knew each other in college meet up because they're in 522 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 3: neighboring lake houses. Later in adulthood, both of them are 523 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 3: dealing with like big personal loss, and in a lot 524 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,360 Speaker 3: of ways, it's a book that I think is that 525 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 3: like post race, postgender world, where like they're on an 526 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 3: even playing field, and they are so fixated on like 527 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 3: how do I maintain my own independence while falling in love, 528 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 3: like the kind of thing that a lot of contemporary 529 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 3: stories are about. 530 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: Even hearing this story, I'm like, oh my gosh, imagining 531 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: just the ease of letting yourself kind of fall in 532 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: love is something like so delicious. 533 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean it's not easy for them though, right, 534 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 3: like we'd think it is, like the setup is there. 535 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 3: But a friend pointed out to me recently, like this 536 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 3: tweet that was like, we can't expect characters to know 537 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 3: what genre they're in, so they're not like oriented towards 538 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 3: the idea that everything is going to be okay the 539 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 3: way that the reader is, and so their interpersonal distress 540 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 3: is still like a huge part of the story. And 541 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 3: ultimately there are issues around gender and power in their relationship, 542 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 3: and those are like real opticals, like what does it 543 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 3: mean to be in a relationship with someone who wields 544 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 3: considerable power over you, considerable social capital over you. The 545 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 3: reality is that, like the structures aren't going away totally, 546 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 3: Like it's kind of like the nature of being a person, 547 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 3: being a human yea, So how do we figure out 548 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 3: how to be with each other in spite of and 549 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 3: because of that? 550 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: There are so many genres in romance? Why is monster 551 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: romance a part of your research? Yeah? 552 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, This actually was like kind of a fun passion 553 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 3: project because I was taking a really great gender studies 554 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 3: class during my master's program. At the same time, I'd 555 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 3: been really heavily recommended Morning Glory Milking Farm by cmnis Costa, 556 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 3: which is a romance between a menotaur and a human woman, 557 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 3: and I was reading that alongside like all of this 558 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 3: really intense critical gender theory, and I was like, hmm, 559 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 3: seems like there's something here, which is where my research 560 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 3: came from, was like a desire to understand why the 561 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 3: monster is like an interesting sexual subject. And I think 562 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 3: I'm interested in monsters generally because they are transgressors. Like 563 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 3: in literature, in philosophy, the monster is the capital other, 564 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 3: this figure that like shows us the boundaries of acceptable 565 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 3: society by being right on the boundary between what isn't 566 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,239 Speaker 3: isn't acceptable. And there are these like creatures that have 567 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,959 Speaker 3: unknown origins and unknown relation to others in the world, 568 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 3: and yet are so magnetic and compelling. And the reality 569 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 3: is also that like the woman has also been constructed 570 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 3: in philosophy as the other, and so there's kinship to 571 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 3: be found. I think between women and monsters broadly, I 572 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 3: think something that's really interesting in that that, like, monsters 573 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 3: have permission to be abject, to be disgusting, filthy, gross, 574 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 3: leaking fluids, hairy, undesirable in some traditional normative sense. I mean, 575 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 3: they might be large and muscular, but they are still 576 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 3: out of the ordinary. They have like freakish bodies. That 577 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,239 Speaker 3: is the nature of a monster, as opposed to like 578 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 3: a vampire, a were wolf, a witch, which is more paranormal. 579 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 3: I would say, so, I think I was really interested 580 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 3: in that of like when someone's embody met is not 581 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 3: tidy and neat and clean and recognizable and familiar, Like, 582 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 3: how is it that desire is a much more complicated 583 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 3: experience than purely attempting to recreate hetero sexual relations as 584 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 3: we know it, Like, how is it possible that people 585 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 3: can experience desires for creatures they've never seen, like want 586 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 3: for things that they will never encounter? Like how is 587 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 3: desire and experience that really isn't necessarily about another person? 588 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,959 Speaker 3: Is the thing that you grant to yourself? And like 589 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 3: how can monster romance be an exploration of that? Was 590 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 3: all stuff that I was interested in. I think it's 591 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 3: complicated though. 592 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: Well. My last question for you, and this is something 593 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: we ask everybody. What is one thing you've had to 594 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: unlearn about love? 595 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 3: I've learned that heteropessimism doesn't serve me. I was writing 596 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 3: about heteropessimism last year, and I think it helped me 597 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 3: distill the way that romance had played a part in 598 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 3: undoing my own heteropessimism. Is so tharescan queer theorist. He 599 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 3: wrote this essay on heteropessimism, basically talking about how feminism 600 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 3: has failed to theorize heterosexuality meaningfully and interestingly, like it 601 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 3: is the sort of feminist position that it is like 602 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 3: tackylame and stupid, completely anti productive for the self to 603 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 3: be attracted to men given the violence that they enact. 604 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, speak a little bit more to that, like sort 605 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: of healing that experience. 606 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 3: Well Sirescen's essay like articulates the point of heteropessimism and 607 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 3: then goes through deconstructing all the ways that it's not helpful, 608 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 3: first of which is the population of women who are 609 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 3: attracted to men are not going away totally. Like the 610 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 3: experience of desire for men, no matter how begrudging we 611 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 3: are about it, no matter how like self loathing we 612 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 3: are about it doesn't go away. But it does end 613 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 3: up sort of inadvertently making women feel like their desire 614 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,479 Speaker 3: is silly, stupid, frivolous. 615 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: Something to be ashamed about. 616 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 3: Something to be ashamed about. So this thing that is 617 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 3: ostensibly like, look what a rational position it is, ends 618 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 3: up circling back on women. 619 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: Again totally what's that about? 620 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 3: And then he also makes the point that, like heteropessimism 621 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 3: forecloses the degree to which attero sexuality is an institution 622 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 3: is changeable, Like when we have decided in this like 623 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 3: nihilistic way that it is like without meaning and without 624 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 3: the potential for change. I don't say that, like he 625 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 3: doesn't say that to be like flippant about sexual violence 626 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 3: by any means, like it is actually the narrative that 627 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 3: something must change, and we can only do that by 628 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 3: acknowledging the merits of the institution and figuring out what 629 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 3: is working for people who are in heterosexual relationships. And 630 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 3: I think romance novels helped me understand how like being 631 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 3: in relation with people who have different positions of power 632 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 3: can actually be personally transformative, right, Like how is it 633 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 3: that when you see yourself filtered through the eyes of 634 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 3: someone who has more like cultural capital than you, that 635 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 3: you might be able to see yourself with more kindness, 636 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 3: with more generosity? Like how is it that the confidence 637 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 3: or the authority of a male partner in a romance 638 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 3: novel is something that like rubs off on a female protagonist? 639 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,280 Speaker 3: Like how is it that the loving gaze of someone 640 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 3: else is a thing that transforms how we view ourselves? 641 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 3: Like I think those were all things that romance novels 642 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 3: like brought life. 643 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: To for me. When you mentioned like loving gaze, it's 644 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: so interesting because I guess we're talking about it in 645 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: the context of the male gaze. 646 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, Iris Murdoch, the philosopher come forward, with it really 647 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,479 Speaker 3: justin loving gaze, that's what you call them. 648 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: What's her name again, Iris Murdoc, Iris Murdoch. I have 649 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: so much reading to do. I'm gonna need you to 650 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: text me a the lit. Absolutely well, thank you so much, 651 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: thank you for coming on, thank you, thank you. 652 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 2: Thank you. 653 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:23,959 Speaker 3: I just have to be here. 654 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: Hey, Hi, Hope, Hi Emily. 655 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 4: So I'm giving you a little call to check in 656 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 4: and see if you've read any of that book. 657 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: I have read some of the book. I'm on chapter three, okay, yes, 658 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: and it's very cute. It starts out a little tumultuous. Yes, 659 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm finding myself coming across like the same sort of 660 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: like difficulty I have with fiction. Yes, my my brain 661 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: is wandering a little while I read. And that's the 662 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: ADHD and me and I'm working on that. But the 663 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,839 Speaker 1: story is really cute, and I'm excited to see how 664 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: they fall in love, because right, they kind of start 665 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: at it's an enemy's to lover's story, right, So I'm 666 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: excited to see how they fall in love. 667 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 4: So you're enjoying the journey so far. 668 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: I'm enjoying the journey, and like we sort of have 669 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: talked about, I'm like trying to apply I can fall 670 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,959 Speaker 1: in love to my own life right now. M m yeah, 671 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: because I don't know if I have let myself be 672 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,879 Speaker 1: in that headspace since like high school, is that great? 673 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: Right that? 674 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 4: I mean, it's hard. The more experience you have, really 675 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 4: the heart it can be, because more shit happens to you. 676 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: I've been thinking recently how I would love to be 677 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: able to let myself fall into someone. But I in 678 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: s L A A the other day and they said, 679 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:09,439 Speaker 1: don't fall in love, crawl into love. As I'm saying 680 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: it out loud, I'm like, do we like that? 681 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,439 Speaker 4: I do like that, like that I identify as more 682 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 4: of a crawler, but I don't. 683 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: Want to We don't want to crawl, like that's kind 684 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: of a vulnerable position. I'm thinking about it. I'm like, 685 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: I know, we don't want to be on our hands 686 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,479 Speaker 1: and knees, but maybe we like baby step into love? 687 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: Yeah you Wade, Wade until yes, Wade love. I like Wade. Yes. 688 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 4: Have you thought about anything more after our conversation with sand. 689 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, well, I've been thinking about monster romance 690 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: because after our conversation, you know, I think I mentioned 691 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,759 Speaker 1: if not in the conversation with her, but with you. 692 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: I love A Shape of Water. It's in my top 693 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: four on letterbox, Like, I love that movie. I was 694 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: rewatching it the other day and I thought like, oh, wow, 695 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: if you think about it through the lens that Sandra 696 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 1: was sort of talking about, like just falling in love 697 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: with someone who may be like a bit of an outcast, 698 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 1: or you're not allowed to fall in love with somebody 699 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: who's a bit of an other, like, you know, somebody 700 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: like and I don't know. I just sort of saw 701 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: that movie in a completely new light and it made 702 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,240 Speaker 1: me think about, like, yeah, how romance novels can really 703 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 1: be a mirror to what we're all sort of doing 704 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: in our day to day lives and things that we're 705 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: navigating culturally. 706 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,399 Speaker 4: I think this has been a little bit healing, would 707 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 4: you say? 708 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 2: So? 709 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: This has been a great project. This has been so 710 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: much fun. Thank you so much to Sane, to everyone 711 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: at the Ripped Bodice for letting us poke around, and 712 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: thanks for the romance novels out there for showing us 713 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: there can always be a happy ending. Thank y'all for listening, 714 00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: and we'll talk next week. Boy Sover is a production 715 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 1: of iHeart Podcasts, I'm your Host Hopewordard. Our executive producers 716 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is 717 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: Emily Meronoff. Our assistant producer is Logan Palau. Engineering by 718 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Abu Zafar. If 719 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: you liked this episode, please tell a friend and don't 720 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Boys Sober on 721 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your 722 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: favorite shows.