WEBVTT - Part One: The Bastards of Forensic Science 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:10.000 Also media. Oh, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, the 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:15.040 only podcast on the Internet that you're currently listening to 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:19.080 unless you're one of those weird people who's like trying 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:23.200 to trying to like maximize your intellectual benefit because you 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:25.919 listen to too many weird YouTube grifters and you've got 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:28.280 a different earbud to a different phone in each ear, 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:31.400 and you're like double podcasting as you read a book 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:33.519 because that's going to get you the most knowledge so 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:36.480 that you can probably put a bunch of scam books 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:39.720 up on Amazon or get into fucking, I don't know, 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:44.320 real estate fraud. God, the Internet's a great place and 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:48.000 one of the great things about the Internet is the 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:53.400 guest we're bringing on today. And as a doctor obviously, 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.760 doctor cave Joda has made a vow to first do 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.520 no harm, which is weird because every time we have 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:01.560 him on the show, he kills it. 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:02.360 Kava. 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.080 Welcome to the program was fantastic. 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:07.440 I know, I thought about the Woe this morning and 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:08.480 I was just waiting to use it. 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.959 Goodness, I'm going to steal that another day. Working her 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:14.760 fingers to the bone in the podcast Minds Good Buddies' 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:17.120 Happy to be back. Thank you so much for having me. 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:22.120 Yes, yes, now, Cava. This is a coming during a 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:26.080 difficult time. Actually wrote most of this episode in the 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.280 bone marrow transplant ward and then the ICU that my 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.640 dad was in as I was doing overnights watching him. 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.320 And I have a question for you because the hospital 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:37.080 I'm at, I'm not going to give the precise name, 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.520 but I'm in North Texas. The hospital I'm at, and 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.720 the bottom floor next to like one of the restaurants 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.840 has an antique store. And this antique store is so 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.280 crowded with stuff that you can barely walk in it. 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.800 And the proprietor and only employee is a man who 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:57.040 seems to be in his eighties. And where's at least 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:59.520 as far as I can tell, only like three piece suits. 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.240 And I'm is he the Is this the devil? I 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:03.000 found the devil? 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:04.200 Wait? 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.720 Wait, wait, wait, hold on, let's let's back up just 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:11.040 a moment. Because you said there is restaurants and an 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:12.400 antique store. 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:14.560 There's an antique store in the hospital. 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.280 It's next to a sub hospital that. 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.280 Is next to a subway, so on in I know 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.519 why you'd want a subway in a hospital, because what 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.520 you need food at the hospital when you're watching. 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:31.519 Nothing nothing said says hospital ambiance, like expired lunch. 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:33.240 I don't understand. 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.440 I mean, my California mind cannot comprehend. I've never worked 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.280 or been in a hospital in which there are more 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.720 than I mean, there's a cafeteria, but not anything. I 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:47.640 would say it's close to a restaurant, it's nothing like 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:53.440 nothing that resembles an antique store maybe against ball. Why 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.120 are you going to an antique store in the hospital. 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:57.480 What is happenings? 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.359 I mentioned this too, why a doctor brother who practice 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:02.200 I don't know it and he was like, he was like, 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.320 oh yeah, And I was like, what do you mean? 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.440 Oh yeah, He's like why but why He. 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:09.120 Was not phrased by it, and I was like, this 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.040 is I'm like, what is happening there anyway? 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:12.080 And yes it is the devil? 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:15.000 Yeah, there's there's no way. This is not a needful 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.239 thing kind of situation here right right? 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:23.080 Yeah, don't there's some weird gin monkey paw think anything 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:25.040 that person sells, don't buy it. 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.839 Because I've been talking to the nurses too, and every 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:29.040 nurse I ask it is like, I have. 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:29.960 No fing idea. 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.520 It doesn't make any sense make any sense unless they 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.320 built the hospital on the antique store and the antique 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:37.760 store was like, YESO, the. 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:39.640 Antique store was there first. 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.720 They just had to put out house forever. It's been 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:44.280 here forever. 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:52.760 Sometimes it's older than the hills themselves, right Cove. Yes, 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:57.640 you're a scientist as a doctor scientist. 0:03:57.280 --> 0:03:59.560 Yeah, sort of scientific method is something I understand. 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.560 Yeah, you utilize science, correct. What do you know? How 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:07.760 do you feel about forensic science? You know, stuff like fingerprinting, 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.160 you know, DNA analysis, that kind of jazz. 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:16.480 Will it is interesting. I feel like there are certain 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:18.640 parts of it that are very interesting to me and 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:22.080 seem to have, you know, some good evidence behind it, 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:26.880 like toxicology, DNA stuff. I think we've gotten fairly good 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.760 at that. That's a it's like a science. But I 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:31.560 don't know. I mean a lot of it seems to me. 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:33.840 Maybe you'll correct me if I'm wrong here. I'm guessing 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.080 not because that's what the topic of the Today Show is. 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.240 But I feel like just because you label something a 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:42.359 science doesn't necessarily mean it's a science, like scientology for example. 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:44.279 You know, so, I feel like there might be some 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.520 parts of forensic science that are not Can I tell 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:49.360 you a little bit of a backstory on this one? 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:51.520 Sure? Please? So when I was. 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:56.599 In medical school, I did my psychiatry rotation in a jail, 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:01.240 so I actually did forensic psychiatry. And I sat down 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.760 with a warden once who considered himself like a world expert. 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:06.240 And there were a lot of great people that worked 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.000 in the jill believe it or not, social workers and 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.360 stuff I worked with that were amazing. But I'm not 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:13.880 talking about that. I'm talking about this warden who who 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.880 ran it, who was like an expert in like micro expressions. 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.279 Someone's line, it's my favorite cop bullshit science. 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:23.880 And I remember he. 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:25.919 Sad me down for like this lecture about it to 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:27.600 like go over it and me it was like fun, 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:29.440 I'm like, will this work? And I try, like if 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:31.640 I look up into the left, does that mean the 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:32.480 person's lying? 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:33.240 You know what I mean. 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:35.360 There's all these little tiny things I was looking for, 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:38.279 But I'm like, I just I can't believe this is 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:40.960 a real science. Someone would really need to convince me 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.680 of the of the research behind it before I ever 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:45.839 like allowed that in court. Not that I'm a judge 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:47.560 or anything, but you know what I mean, that's so 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.200 I'm torn on forensic science? Is the long is a 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:50.919 short answer to that? 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.400 Yeah, I had a fucking cop and Brady Texas pull 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:56.680 me over and repeatedly tell me as he was waiting 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:58.520 for the dogs because I wouldn't let him search my 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.640 car that, like, I've been trained to recognize lying, and 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.200 I believe that you are lying because like you did 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:06.839 this or did that when you say that you don't 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.400 have any marijuana in the car, and they didn't have 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:11.200 any marijuana in the car, but I still wasn't gonna 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:12.120 let them fucking search me. 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:13.840 Yeah. 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:17.360 No, The best advice I ever got about being an 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:19.680 adult was from my speech and debate coach who got 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.080 fired because he had not disclosed that he had an 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:26.120 arrest on his record or something right after this, but 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.640 told us, if you ever have to lie to would judge, 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.320 don't break eye contact. Just look a judge or a cop. 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:34.080 Just look them right in the eye and tell them 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:35.840 what they need to hear for you to go home. 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:37.680 And by god, has it worked. 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:38.239 Yeah? 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:40.320 No, that's gotten me out of trouble a lot of times. 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.320 But yes, as that as that introduction kind of makes 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:50.320 it clear, there are sciences within forensics, like, for example, 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.880 matching DNA. You know, if there's blood at the scene 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:55.800 of a murder that does not belong to the victim, 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.719 and then you find a person with an injury and 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:02.440 their blood matches, that blood might suggest that they're the murder. Right, 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:05.960 there's real science there. I don't think anyone would would 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.880 argue with that. Likewise, you find some fingerprints at the 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.720 scene on a murder weapon, they match another dude, you know, 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:15.160 a person that you catch later, that might suggest that 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:19.280 you know that person did the murder. However, while both 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:24.920 of those things are sciences, both fingerprinting and DNA analysis 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:29.440 do not work as well as people often believe, and 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.000 there's kind of this whole field that's grown up around 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.840 them because of how solid the actual scientific basis in 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:39.920 both fingerprinting and DNA analysis is. They've provided sort of 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.280 like an umbrella under which a lot of other or 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.200 like a canopy under which like this kind of mushroom 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:51.080 cloud of toxic fake forensic science has also grown up. 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.560 I was mixing my metaphors there, but I think it's forgivable. 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:54.280 Yeah, yeah, I got it. 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.720 Anyway, that's what we're talking about today, because all forensic 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.600 science is a bastard. That's not entirely true, but it's 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.520 as true as forensic science is. So well, we'll allow 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.840 you know. On May thirtieth, nineteen ninety seven, a Boston 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.440 police officer entered the backyard of a house in Jamaica. 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:16.280 Plane he engaged in a short struggle with an unknown 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.800 person who ambushed the officer and managed to gain access 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.880 to his service weapon. The assailant fired twice, wounding the officer, 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:28.160 whose last words before losing consciousness probably sound in something like. 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:31.560 Oil you've Boston. 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:36.040 Sorry, sylthily what I wasn't gonna not gonna do my 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:37.679 award winning Boston accents. 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:39.679 And the best part is I had no idea was 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.920 coming that I know. Really, it was a sneak attacked. 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.920 I mean, we've all known Boston cops. They all sound 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:52.079 like that when you get shot Henny Kenny. Anyway, he survives, 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.800 so it's not in bad taste after shooting the officer 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:57.160 the assailant, isn't it. 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:00.360 I'm not sure you're off the hook, but go on, 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:01.520 I think I'm fine. 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:07.040 I'm letting you have this one. After it's been so 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.720 long since I brought the Boston accent out the people 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:14.280 have demanded. I did see like color go back into 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.880 your cheeks when he said, you're like more a lot 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.800 now than you were two minutes ago. Yeah, that's why 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.640 I got into podcasting, is to do that Boston accent. 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:29.160 We just got sidetracked by dictators. So after shooting this 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.040 cop with his own gun, which has to be embarrassing 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.480 as a cop, the assailant started shooting at a bystander 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.640 who was standing by a second story window watching. Thankfully 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:42.960 doesn't hit this random person, and then he flees the scene, 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.199 leaving behind nothing but a baseball hat that was knocked 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.920 off in the struggle. He breaks into a home near 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.920 where the shooting had taken place because he was thirsty. 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.160 A family is there and they like watch while he 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.400 drinks a glass of water and then leaves the CoP's 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:04.280 gun and sweatshirt behind. Now this seems like, well that's 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:05.880 a lot of evidence. You shoul probably be able to track 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.440 this guy down, right, A ton of witnesses leaves this 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:14.000 sweatshirt behind. Yeah, anyway, it takes about two weeks for 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.079 the injured officer to be well enough to sit in 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.960 front of a photo array of suspects and like potentially 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.320 identify somebody, and he picks a guy out of this lineup, 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:27.480 a man named Stephen Cohens Cowa NS And he does 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:29.800 this on two separate occasions, so the police think, well, 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:32.600 that's probably a pretty good id. The person who had 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.600 been shot at from his second floor idd Cohen's two. 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.959 Now that sounds again. This is one of those things 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:40.240 where if you see this in like a cop show, 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:42.040 where you'd be like, well, then it's obviously him, right, 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:43.599 he got id by both people at the scene. But 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.120 here's the thing, and this is something I hope people 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:51.040 are getting more aware of. Eyewitness accounts and identifications are garbage. 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.560 They're oftentimes worse than nothing at all. People are terrible 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.520 at recognizing shit that's had. I remember this one moment 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:03.280 during the protests and where like somebody pulled a gun 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:07.240 after like driving their car through a chunk of the protest, 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:09.160 And the first thing I heard from like a bunch 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:10.800 of different people was like a guy just pulled an 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:12.880 AR fifteen and a bunch of protesters and I looked 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:14.440 over to Garrison and I'll say, I'll bet you fucking 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:16.880 anything it was a handgun. And as soon as pictures 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:18.880 come out, so it's a nine millimeter handgun. And it's 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.520 not people aren't trying to like be lie or fantasized. 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.960 It's like memory is bad. We're bad remembering things that 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:26.880 happened to us. 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.920 Yeah, I mean, I assume, especially when you're not expecting to, 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.160 you know, memorize things when it just happens and like 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:34.760 catching it and then looking back. 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:35.320 Yeah. 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.240 Yeah. And this is why when they train people to 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:40.680 you know, do jobs, like you know whatever, FBI agents 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.160 and stuff, there is training and like how to try 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:47.040 and like analyze a scene. And and I think it's 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:48.720 debatable as to how well that works, but it is 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:50.440 a thing that you need to try and train because 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.000 we're not naturally good at it. Now. Part of why 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:57.120 I bring up the fact that these are terrible ideas 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.360 is that both the you know, the cop is kind 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.480 of ambushed. He doesn't get a good look at this 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.560 guy who shoots him. He's ambushed and horribly injured. And 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.120 the fam or and the guy who like looks at 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:10.840 him from that second story window and then get shot 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.000 at is not close to him, right. The two who 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.560 identify Cohen's as the guy. The family in the house 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.560 that the assailants forced their way into see this the 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:23.520 assailant at close range, and they don't ID Cohens. Now, 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.440 as a journalist, if I if I'm just trying to 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:29.160 determine what i think is more credible, I'm going to 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:31.240 be more credible to the family who. 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.880 Was right next to the guy and shot the guy 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:37.040 in your living room, that that makes sense. You might 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.160 be able to recognize that that's a decent ID. Probably right, Yeah, 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:42.319 you have a better shot. You have a bear shot. Yeah, 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.480 certainly so. The fact that these folks who had been 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.199 closest to the shooter and spent the most time with 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:49.440 him didn't id Cohen's should have been a warning. But 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.559 their testimony is not what cinched Cohen's conviction, and he 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:57.000 is convicted of this crime. Instead, prosecutors used a fingerprint 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.840 found on the glass of water the assailant drank from 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:02.439 it in their home. They bring in a fingerprint expert. 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:06.000 He concludes the Layton print matches Cohen's left thumb, and 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:11.080 that sounds pretty bulletproof. Right, fingerprints are real. Matching fingerprints 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.679 is a real thing you can do. Seems like a 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.079 good id. So Cohens goes off the prison where he's 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:21.040 going to stay for more than six years. He does 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:25.520 not accept this conviction because spoilers. He's innocent, so he 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.080 fights this as much as he can from prison, and 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.880 the Innocence Project worked with Cohens for several years, and 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.040 in two thousand and three they succeeded in pushing the 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.840 Suffolk Superior Court to release the glass mug that that 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.520 latent fingerprint had been taken from swabs of the mug, 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.679 the baseball hat, and the sweatshirt that the assailant had 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.000 left behind to do DNA testing and see if any 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:47.280 of it matched Cohen's and the DNA tests are conclusive. 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.160 While the DNA on the hat matched the DNA from 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.160 the swabs, so they knew that the hat that was 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.800 left at the scene where the officer was shot belonged 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.959 to the same person who drank from that mug, neither 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:03.199 test matched Cohen's. Right yeah, tests on the sweatshirt reveal 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:05.720 the same thing, and with this new evidence, the Suffolk 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.440 DA reanalyzed the fingerprint match that had been used to 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:12.400 convict Cohen's Upon re examination, it was concluded that the 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:16.160 fingerprint was not left by Cohens. On January twenty third, 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.040 two thousand and four, he was released. He lived in 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.320 freedom for the next three years until he was shot 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:23.320 to death in two thousand and seven in his own home. 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.120 A fright. A really depressing number of Innocence Project people 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.440 who get like released die very soon after getting released 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:34.600 for a variety of reasons. Inclaning, A lot of them, 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.840 you know, go back into situations where their living situation 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.640 isn't very safe. Yeah, because the time they've spent in 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:42.560 prison certainly didn't give them the ability to get into 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:43.960 a saber one exactly. 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:47.280 I mean it's also like they probably picked people who 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.880 are at risk anyways, those are the people they are 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:51.640 being accused of this, or people who probably aren't in 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:53.640 a fantastic situation to begin with. 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:54.640 Then they go to. 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.160 Jail, they spend whatever amount of time not making money, 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.280 earning an income, learning anything, advancing their lives, and then 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:02.720 they have to try and start over. A lot of 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.120 them are going to be much worse off. So yeah, yeah, 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.120 I'm not shocked to hear that, I guess. 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:07.920 Yeah. 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.000 Now, Cohenes's story from the use of unreliable forensic science 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.600 to convict him to his tragic early death after release 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.440 is again very common and just as common as the 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:19.480 fact that he was a black man, and the officer 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.880 he was accused of wounding was white next to DNA, So. 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:25.960 I'm sorry that I didn't even have to ask his color. 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:28.200 No you. Yeah, of course, figure that. 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:29.920 Was going to be the situation here, that they were 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:32.880 gonna just find another guy that matched the color and 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:33.360 that was it. 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:38.400 Yeah, it happens quite often now next to DNA testing. 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.160 Fingerprint matching is one of the most reliable methods of 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:46.520 forensic analysis we have. But that fact, which is undeniable, 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:50.400 does not mean that it's reliable enough you would want 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:52.840 to risk your freedom on it. It does not mean 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:55.320 that it's perfect, and it doesn't mean that you can 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.640 take an expert saying this fingerprint belongs to this person 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:00.200 as red right. 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:01.640 None of that is. 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.400 You simply can't rely on any of that because there's 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:09.760 a big difference between the actual science behind fingerprints and 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:11.960 fingerprint forensic science. 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:12.640 Right. 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.840 Fingerprinting experts, prosecutors and law enforcement like to portray it 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.120 as a thing of objective science where you get one 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.080 hundred percent confirmation of a perpetrator's presence of a crime 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:26.680 scene because you matched them to a fingerprint, and that 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.760 is not true. Basically, everything you've ever heard about forensic 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.640 science and fingerprint science is a lie. And outside of 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.880 stuff like fingerprints and blood, which do at least have 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.360 a basis in science, most of what is done in 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:41.320 the forensic field, or at least a lot of it, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:45.800 has more in common with witchcraft than science. So I'm 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.040 starting with fingerprinting both because people should know that it 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:51.720 does not work the way they think it does, and 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:55.160 because it kind of kickstarts the field of forensic science 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.920 in the modern sense and in the US that starts 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.360 in nineteen eleven when fingerprinting first is used in a 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:05.800 court case. So unlike most of what we're talking today, again, 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.840 this does have real use in catching people who have 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.320 done bad things. The first case in which fingerprints were 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.760 introduced as evidence was the nineteen to ten trial of 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.840 Thomas Jennings, who was accused of murdering Clarence Hiller. And 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:20.679 I'm going to quote now from an article by General 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:25.080 Nuken in Issues in Science and Technology. Quote the defendant 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.879 was linked to the crime by some suspicious, circumstantial evidence, 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.359 but there was nothing definitive against him. However, the Hiller 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.439 family had just finished painting their house and on the 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:34.879 railing of their back porch. Four fingers of a left 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.520 hand had been imprinted in the still wet paint. The 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.080 prosecution wanted to introduce expert testimony, concluding that these fingerprints 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.119 belonged to none other than Thomas Jennings. Four witnesses from 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:47.600 various bureaus of identification testified for the prosecution, and all 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:49.879 concluded that the fingerprints on the rail were made by 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.199 the defendant's hand. The judge allowed their testimony and Jennings 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.520 was convicted. The defendant argued unsuccessfully on appeal that the 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.959 princes were improperly admitted, citing authorities such as the Encyclopedia 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:03.600 Britannica and a treatise on Handwriting identification. The court emphasized 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.119 that standard authorities on scientific subjects discussed the use of 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.800 fingerprints as a system of identification, concluding that experience has 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:15.000 shown it to be reliable, and you know, that's all good. 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.440 This is probably a case of fingerprinting being used to actually, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:23.040 like convict a guy who did crime. You know, it's 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:25.360 interesting to me that human beings have pretty much always 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.080 known that there was potential in fingerprints as a method 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.080 of identification. The idea that they are unique to each 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:37.359 individual goes back very far. Ancient Babylonians used fingerprint indentations 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:41.320 as part of their records for business transactions. Yeah, but 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.520 fingerprinting didn't enter the criminal justice system in an organized 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.960 way until the mid eighteen hundreds. Like most innovations in 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.800 criminal justice, it was first tested by the British raj 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.000 in India, initially as part of like a fraud prevention measure. 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:54.320 Right. 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:56.920 A major breakthrough came a few years later in the 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.800 eighteen seventies, courtesy of a Scottish doctor, him Falds, who 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.480 was a missionary in Japan. Falds started inking his coworker's 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.040 fingerprints after noticing fingerprints trapped in two thousand year old 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.560 pottery shirts. This led to the first recorded case of 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:14.720 a solved crime due to fingerprints. One of his employees 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.000 was stealing booze from the hospital and drinking it from 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.800 a beaker. Falds found a print on the glass and 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.560 matched it to the culprit. That is apparently the first time. 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:28.320 Crime whom's amongst us in medicine does not occasionally use 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.120 a beaker for that purpose. Come on, yeah, it's a crime. Now, 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:31.879 that's a crime. 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:37.080 It's bullshit, It's this is the first great injustice caused 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.080 by finger printing exactly. 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.639 You know, it's interesting to hear this because it's like, 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.240 you know, we talked about some of the forensic signed 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.879 stuff before, like the stuff I'm a little more familiar with, 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.520 like DNA and toxicology. The reason I know about those 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.280 is because they're kind of born out of like research, 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:57.639 out of like universities, hospitals, peer reviewed journals, et cetera. 0:19:57.760 --> 0:19:59.879