Speaker 1: I feel like we as humans have sort of good
Speaker 1: behavior amnesia. If a fourty eight hour period has passed,
Speaker 1: when you got up early and got your day started
Speaker 1: for the kids, got up or exercise first thing, I
Speaker 1: feel like once four to eight hours passes, you just
Speaker 1: completely forget that was a good idea, there was any
Speaker 1: benefit from it. Welcome to the one you feed throughout time.
Speaker 1: Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think, ring true, and yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us. Our guest today is Josh ship a
Speaker 1: k A. The Teen Whisperer. Josh is a former at
Speaker 1: risk foster kid turned teen advocate His TV series Teen
Speaker 1: Trouble on A and E Lifetime documented his work with
Speaker 1: teens in crisis. He is the author of The Teen's
Speaker 1: Guide to World Domination and helps adults understand teens and
Speaker 1: teens understand themselves. Josh has spoken at universities such as Harvard, Stanford,
Speaker 1: m I T, and U C l A, and has
Speaker 1: contributed to Good Morning America, oprah MTV, CNN, The New
Speaker 1: York Times, and many other media outlets. Here's the interview. Hi, Josh,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Hey Eric, I'm glad to have
Speaker 1: you on. I first got introduced to you and your work.
Speaker 1: I have teenage boys, so I came across you and
Speaker 1: was really inspired by the work that you do with teens,
Speaker 1: and I got interested in that and as that kind
Speaker 1: of went on, I realized that the things you were saying,
Speaker 1: we're really applicable to anybody trying to live a better life.
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm excited to explore some of those things
Speaker 1: with you. Yeah, looking forward to chatting about anything and everything.
Speaker 1: So our show is uh as you know, the one
Speaker 1: you feed, and it's based on the parable of two Wolves,
Speaker 1: where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson, and
Speaker 1: he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us.
Speaker 1: One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness
Speaker 1: and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second.
Speaker 1: He says, well, Grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says,
Speaker 1: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 1: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 1: life and in the work that you do. I love
Speaker 1: that parable, and I heard it for the first time
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and even prior to that,
Speaker 1: it's something that I think about quite a bit because
Speaker 1: for me, I know, left to myself, left unchecked, that
Speaker 1: I will just naturally gravitate towards even though it's embarrassing
Speaker 1: to say, and I wish this wasn't true, I will
Speaker 1: gravitate towards selfishness, um self centeredness, thinking about what's only
Speaker 1: best for me, what what is uh sort of more
Speaker 1: ideal in the moment instead of long term, and all
Speaker 1: these things that would have sort of nice consequences in
Speaker 1: the short term, but detrimental consequences in the long term.
Speaker 1: So for me, when I think about that that good
Speaker 1: good wolf idea, UM, I really lean into that it's
Speaker 1: not just enough to want to feed the good wolf.
Speaker 1: I mean, of course none of us would say that
Speaker 1: we want to you know, mess up our lives or
Speaker 1: mess up our relationships or not sort of um, optimize
Speaker 1: whatever it is in our life that's important to us.
Speaker 1: But for me, I think of the importance of having
Speaker 1: a strategy around how is it that I'm going to
Speaker 1: feed that good wolf? What sort of checks and balances, um,
Speaker 1: am I going to have in my life to make
Speaker 1: sure that on the days that I don't feel like
Speaker 1: feeding the good wolf, which which are frequent, which are often,
Speaker 1: which happened quite a bit, how even on those days,
Speaker 1: am I going to have checks and balances and people
Speaker 1: that I've placed in my life and given them the
Speaker 1: authority to remind me of what I claimed I wanted
Speaker 1: to do when I was thinking clearly and in a
Speaker 1: good place. So that when those inevitable bad times come
Speaker 1: and I mistake, which I do often, and I mistake
Speaker 1: the bad wolf for the good wolf, that uh, you
Speaker 1: know that I'll be that someone or something or some
Speaker 1: discipline or some habit or structure will sort of turned
Speaker 1: me back towards that good Wolf. There were a lot
Speaker 1: of great things that you said in there, and I'm
Speaker 1: interested in a question, so I'm going to just recap
Speaker 1: your back story really fast, and this will be a
Speaker 1: way too short version, but for folks who are interested there.
Speaker 1: You know, Josh is out a lot of places on
Speaker 1: the Internet and you can hear this, But essentially your
Speaker 1: backstory is you were abandoned at birth by your mother. UM,
Speaker 1: you went through a series of foster homes kind of
Speaker 1: in and out of trouble, until you finally, in your
Speaker 1: later teens landed with a family that, um, you know,
Speaker 1: was was kind of instrumental in helping you turn your
Speaker 1: life around. And in the beginning of where you're just talking,
Speaker 1: you mentioned that you have issues with feeding the good Wolf,
Speaker 1: like that you your mind goes to a default place
Speaker 1: of where you maybe don't make the best decisions. And
Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious, do you think that that is
Speaker 1: a universal human can asuan? Do you think that is
Speaker 1: a result of, you know, kind of a challenging childhood.
Speaker 1: I'm just always fascinated by by people's opinions on that. Well,
Speaker 1: to be honest, I think it's a little bit of both.
Speaker 1: I think that that all of us can tend to
Speaker 1: lean towards um our own best interest, you know, being selfish,
Speaker 1: self centered, these sorts of things. UM. You know, I
Speaker 1: think all of us can can sort of lean towards
Speaker 1: that if we're again not unchecked, if you know, if
Speaker 1: things get stressful, if things get difficult, I think that
Speaker 1: all of us can lean towards that. But also because
Speaker 1: of you know, my specific personality, UM challenges growing up,
Speaker 1: strengths and weaknesses. The strength thing has been fascinating because
Speaker 1: you would think, okay, my weakness is I have to
Speaker 1: safeguard against those. But actually sometimes our strengths, left unchecked, UM,
Speaker 1: can become a weakness. So I think some of the
Speaker 1: things that I have to guard against are very very universal.
Speaker 1: But I think some of the things are specific to me.
Speaker 1: Whereas you know, it might be fine for I'll give
Speaker 1: you a very specific example, so we're not just speaking vaguely. UM.
Speaker 1: I have to all right, So, because I was left
Speaker 1: by my parents, one of the sort of fallouts of that,
Speaker 1: be it for good or bad, is that I have
Speaker 1: an incredible drive to to sort of prove myself now.
Speaker 1: In my sessions with my therapist, he would sort of say,
Speaker 1: you know, this is you trying to prove to your
Speaker 1: mother or to your parents that that you're worthwhile, that
Speaker 1: you're worth keeping, that you're valuable. Um. And so the
Speaker 1: downside of that can be that this um sort of
Speaker 1: drive that I have, if left unchecked, would wander into workaholism.
Speaker 1: I'm married now, I'm a parent now, and so I
Speaker 1: could just sort of block out everything for the sake
Speaker 1: of trying to achieve something. And you know, I could
Speaker 1: mask it in I'm providing for my family, or I'm
Speaker 1: an ambitious individual, or I'm an entrepreneur, so I have
Speaker 1: to have insanely strict boundaries around my working hours. So
Speaker 1: I have very strict hours that I work. When I'm
Speaker 1: done with that work, I give my my wife my laptop.
Speaker 1: She locks it away from me. Um. This is all true.
Speaker 1: If if she was here now, you could ask her
Speaker 1: and she would back it up. My cell phone. I
Speaker 1: have an iPhone, but it's so dumb because it's basically
Speaker 1: just a over expensive Like all I can do is
Speaker 1: place calls and text. I can't email, like I can't YouTube.
Speaker 1: I can't Facebook tweet. I mean nothing. Now, you know,
Speaker 1: some people, probably most people don't need to go to
Speaker 1: that extreme. But for me, not only is it a
Speaker 1: good idea, but ultimately it's a must. Um. I remember
Speaker 1: reading a book by Dr Henry Cloud, and he said,
Speaker 1: where your maturity is lacking, you have to place external structures.
Speaker 1: So you know, I could, I could hope and wish
Speaker 1: and think and pray and dream that I would, that
Speaker 1: I would have good structures or or excuse me, that
Speaker 1: I could sort of limit myself. And and some days
Speaker 1: I could, and probably most days I could. But it's
Speaker 1: not the some days and the most days that I'm
Speaker 1: worried about. It's those days where I'm feeling vulnerable and
Speaker 1: and so I it's it's harder to leave that checked
Speaker 1: or to leave that uh in a spot where I
Speaker 1: wanted to be. Yeah, And I think the other thing
Speaker 1: to that is even the days that it's not necessarily
Speaker 1: a problem, as in you can overcome it, you know,
Speaker 1: at least for me with those things in my life
Speaker 1: that you know, I might lack maturity and in need structure.
Speaker 1: That takes a It takes energy, It takes something out
Speaker 1: of me to be in that resist mode to some degree.
Speaker 1: And so the less of that, you know, the more
Speaker 1: the less of that I'm faced with, the more you know,
Speaker 1: power and energy I have to bring to other parts
Speaker 1: of my life. Yeah, I love that. I love Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting way to think about it. Um.
Speaker 1: And for me, it's actually quite freeing to place you know,
Speaker 1: a a structure or a person and give them the
Speaker 1: authority to kind of hold that line for me. So
Speaker 1: you know, like you said, I don't have to think
Speaker 1: about I don't have to sort of muster up the
Speaker 1: courage or the or the energy to do such. But
Speaker 1: but setting it up, um, you know, setting up that structure,
Speaker 1: be it a person or be at some sort of
Speaker 1: work around like you know, stripping email from your phone
Speaker 1: or something. The setting up of that, I think is
Speaker 1: the massive barrier because, um, you know, it's inconvenient, and
Speaker 1: in those moments of inconvenience, you will begin to minimize
Speaker 1: how serious the issue is. Um. You know, it's inconvenient
Speaker 1: to to go to someone and sort of admit a
Speaker 1: flaw or a fault and say I need you to
Speaker 1: text me every day at you know, there's certain time
Speaker 1: and ask me if I've done this thing that while
Speaker 1: I'm thinking clearly I want to be committed to, there's
Speaker 1: just a lot of inconveniences, um, and a lot of
Speaker 1: hurdles and a lot of opportunities for your mind to
Speaker 1: to turn on you and begin to sort of justify
Speaker 1: and say, no, it's not you know, it's not that
Speaker 1: big of a deal, and you're you're doing okay right now,
Speaker 1: and you can handle it in most days. But I
Speaker 1: think if if we can get over that, and I
Speaker 1: think when you have you know that that moment of
Speaker 1: clarity where you're like, man, this is a structure I
Speaker 1: need to place into my life. To me, the further
Speaker 1: down the court you can move the ball that day
Speaker 1: or even that hour before you chicken out or justify
Speaker 1: or excuse or whatever, which we all do. Trust me,
Speaker 1: I'm throwing myself under the bus here as well. Um,
Speaker 1: the more likely you are to actually set up that
Speaker 1: structure and then actually begin to sort of benefit from
Speaker 1: the result of that structure. You bring up a really
Speaker 1: interesting point there, which I'm always interested in, is that,
Speaker 1: for better or worse, a lot of us are catalyzed
Speaker 1: into action by some degree of dissatisfaction or pain, which
Speaker 1: is you know some of us are some of us
Speaker 1: need more of that than others, but but that tends
Speaker 1: to be one of the primary motivators. And you mentioned
Speaker 1: that that phenomenon of when I get a little bit
Speaker 1: further away from that, then suddenly that sting of that
Speaker 1: that pain goes away, and I start thinking, well, maybe
Speaker 1: I don't need these things, or do you have any
Speaker 1: thoughts on how when we we start getting into that perspective,
Speaker 1: to stay on the track that we decided it at
Speaker 1: some previous point was important because that is a really
Speaker 1: tricky thing, whether you're talking about something like recovery from
Speaker 1: drug addiction or you're talking about losing weight. I mean
Speaker 1: that that that dynamic plays out. Yeah, awesome question. That's
Speaker 1: why I love your podcast. UM. To me, I think
Speaker 1: you have to ahead of time, strip strip away your
Speaker 1: authority and strip away your ability to make a different decision. So,
Speaker 1: you know, the the laptop thing, giving it to my
Speaker 1: wife here, you know, I'm gonna end my work day
Speaker 1: at this time, lock it away from me. I had
Speaker 1: to be very intentional in that day of thinking clearly, um,
Speaker 1: and and truth be told, my motivation for that decision
Speaker 1: was based off a little bit of bad and a
Speaker 1: little bit of good, like certain days where I was
Speaker 1: overworking and exhausted and not being there for my family
Speaker 1: and kind of there physically but but gone emotionally. And
Speaker 1: some good days where I had boundaries where I shut
Speaker 1: it down at a specific time and you know, really
Speaker 1: took a moment and then fully engage in my family.
Speaker 1: But I had to specifically say to Sarah, listen, I'm
Speaker 1: going to come to you from time to time with look,
Speaker 1: I speak for a living, I'm gonna come to you
Speaker 1: with persuasive, dynamic, convincing arguments and regardless of how inspirational
Speaker 1: or persuasive or whatever kind of tweetable phrase I come
Speaker 1: up with, or whatever garbage like do not trust me,
Speaker 1: then trust me? Now? You know, trust me today, Like
Speaker 1: this is a problem, this is something I need to
Speaker 1: get in check, this is something I need help with. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe a year from now we can have
Speaker 1: a conversation of of you know, a little bit gentle
Speaker 1: or boundary, but certainly not any time before them. And again,
Speaker 1: all this stuff is inconvenient, which is why most people
Speaker 1: want a certain result in their life. But most people
Speaker 1: don't get it. It's not because they lack earnestness. It's
Speaker 1: not because when they say I want to better relationship,
Speaker 1: or I want better boundaries with my work or you
Speaker 1: know whatever, with my health, whatever, it's not that they
Speaker 1: don't mean it. It's not that they're not genuine. It's
Speaker 1: not that they're not earnest or whatever in that desire.
Speaker 1: It's that we are unwilling to set up those sort
Speaker 1: of those boundaries, that that that strictness, and that um
Speaker 1: just all that ickiness that comes from committing and setting
Speaker 1: yourself up to something that deep down, I don't think
Speaker 1: any of us want to be set up to. I
Speaker 1: think we'd rather be able to. I mean, it's not
Speaker 1: the American dream to do whatever you want whenever you want,
Speaker 1: and have all the money and freedom and energy and
Speaker 1: time to do such. But uh, you know, I think
Speaker 1: if we were really given that, UM, at least for me,
Speaker 1: that would just lead to destruction. Oh yeah, that idea
Speaker 1: that if I had nothing to do and could do
Speaker 1: whatever I wanted whenever I wanted is damn near killed
Speaker 1: me UM in the past. It's it's not a format
Speaker 1: that that work swell for me. Going back to what
Speaker 1: you said there, I thought there was something really interesting
Speaker 1: because it was another question I had for you, and
Speaker 1: you you touched on it by saying, well, you know what,
Speaker 1: my motivation is a little bit of pain, right, and
Speaker 1: then the fact that it's sort of good, And I
Speaker 1: think that, you know, ideally, that's the way that at
Speaker 1: least for me, when there's been success. It started out
Speaker 1: as this thing was painful, and then eventually the reason
Speaker 1: I kept doing it was because I can't remember the
Speaker 1: pain that well. I kept doing it because what I
Speaker 1: was getting out of it was enough. And you've got
Speaker 1: a phrase I've heard you say that it's not enough
Speaker 1: to say no to things. You also have to know
Speaker 1: what to say yes to. And I think that's, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of on that same theme. Yeah, And I really
Speaker 1: see this in my work with at risk youth. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's clear they need to say no
Speaker 1: to drugs or no to you know, whatever it is
Speaker 1: that they're doing and involved in that's sort of leading
Speaker 1: them down a bad road. But but you're right, that's
Speaker 1: that's not just enough. I mean, it's not you know,
Speaker 1: because drugs, you know, the drugs are fun for an
Speaker 1: hour or for a period of time or whatever. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, anyone who would be honest with themselves would go, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: I get that, but what is it leading to? Long terms? So? Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I think we can. I think no is
Speaker 1: only motivating for a short period of time, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of getting away from that pain is
Speaker 1: only motivating for a short period of time. But what
Speaker 1: is it gonna actually give me long term? What does
Speaker 1: the benefit going to be long term? And I and
Speaker 1: I think you've got to be as important as this is,
Speaker 1: I think you also have to be thinking soberly and
Speaker 1: and clearly about how long you should expect before that
Speaker 1: positive shows up. UM. Let me give you an example.
Speaker 1: When I was in the foster homes and bouncing bouncing
Speaker 1: around in the foster homes and really sort of oppositional
Speaker 1: and defiant and this and that. UM, every social a
Speaker 1: worker and foster parent I had sort of their solution
Speaker 1: was we need to get this kid counseling, which, you
Speaker 1: know what, they were right, but but what I wasn't
Speaker 1: prepped with UM entering into counseling was this. You know,
Speaker 1: your first five or six or seven or ten sessions,
Speaker 1: you're going to leave feeling worse than when you entered
Speaker 1: that counselor's office, and so when that would inevitably happen,
Speaker 1: I would think, oh crap, it's not working, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: the counselor must not be a fit or I don't
Speaker 1: really need to sit in there and talk about my
Speaker 1: childhood and do the Kumbaya thing. You know, this isn't working.
Speaker 1: Versus realizing that you know that that pain, that discomfort
Speaker 1: that you know, all of that is actually a sign
Speaker 1: of growth, just like going to the gym if you
Speaker 1: were working out, you know that soreness, that discomfort, those
Speaker 1: sorts of things are are actually a sign of growth.
Speaker 1: So I think if we can also try to be
Speaker 1: realistic or ask someone who's been down the road of
Speaker 1: setting up boundaries or getting counseling or or whatever difficult
Speaker 1: thing you're going to have to thrust yourself into to grow, Hey,
Speaker 1: at what point should I begin to see the light
Speaker 1: at the end of the tunnel? At what point should
Speaker 1: I begin to expect some sort of result? And then
Speaker 1: based on that answer, um and for me, most of
Speaker 1: the answers I eventually heard when I was fifteen and
Speaker 1: started to slowly get my stuff together was Hey, you
Speaker 1: know what Josh ten Sessions are probably gonna be terrible
Speaker 1: and you're gonna hate him. Um. But but after that
Speaker 1: it should get a little bit better. So I could
Speaker 1: I could at least sort of bribe myself into or
Speaker 1: somehow cajole myself into thinking, all right, the first ten
Speaker 1: are gonna suck, like, just hang in there. And then
Speaker 1: if after session eleven or twelve it still seems terrible,
Speaker 1: now you have permission to walk away. Now you have
Speaker 1: permission to try to go find another counselor now you
Speaker 1: have permission to maybe begin to debate whether or not
Speaker 1: counseling is for you. But but you do not have
Speaker 1: that authority sessions one to tend. Yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think that's such an important point. I was just on
Speaker 1: somebody else's podcast recently and talking about the same thing.
Speaker 1: We were talking about recovery from alcohol and drugs, and
Speaker 1: I just said, you know, if there was one thing
Speaker 1: I could tell people out there who were wrestling with
Speaker 1: that is that that process of getting sober is awful.
Speaker 1: So you can't think that that's what you're you know,
Speaker 1: you can't compare that. You can't think this is what
Speaker 1: sobriety is, and it's awful. So I'm not going to
Speaker 1: bother because there's just a transition period that's really bad
Speaker 1: and you've got to get on the other side of
Speaker 1: that to see what this thing really is. Like. You
Speaker 1: say that you have to second guess your initial emotional
Speaker 1: reaction because there are ghosts in your past, and I
Speaker 1: think that's interesting because I agree with that. I have
Speaker 1: to too, But there's so much going around now about UM.
Speaker 1: You know, our our intuition is always right, always trust
Speaker 1: your gut, and I'm just kind of curious your thoughts
Speaker 1: on that. Yeah, So to be very frank with you,
Speaker 1: and I've never quite discussed it in this way publicly.
Speaker 1: But for me, eventually, when I was I think nineteen
Speaker 1: or so, I started going to church and Christianity religion
Speaker 1: kind of became, uh an important part of my life.
Speaker 1: It's not, you know, I'm not going out there preaching
Speaker 1: or doing those sorts of things or trying to influence
Speaker 1: kids in that way. But but for me personally, UM,
Speaker 1: it's something that matters to me. It's something that's important
Speaker 1: and earnest to me, and it's something that's been beneficial
Speaker 1: for my life, UM and my family and part of
Speaker 1: what I've learned through my faith, And part of what
Speaker 1: my faith teaches is that sort of you know, we
Speaker 1: are again left to ourselves sort of you know, quote
Speaker 1: sinful meaning we you know, we kind of want to
Speaker 1: do the thing that feels good but is bad for us.
Speaker 1: So I think that is certainly informed my thinking around
Speaker 1: this idea, which is not to trust my gut or
Speaker 1: to trust my heart or or these sorts of things
Speaker 1: that might be thrown around, um, but rather to guard
Speaker 1: my heart, to second guess my my motivation or my
Speaker 1: intent for doing something, and really question and if it's
Speaker 1: serious enough, ask others who really know me, meaning the
Speaker 1: good side of me and the bad side of me, Like, hey,
Speaker 1: does Dore's my motivation for doing this thing seemed pure?
Speaker 1: Is there something off here? Does something smell fishy about
Speaker 1: this situation? Based on my strengths and weakness? Is the
Speaker 1: good of me and and the bad of me? So,
Speaker 1: you know, I think partly my faith, but also partly um,
Speaker 1: you know, having friends who you know, everything is about
Speaker 1: just a feeling like it it felt right, or the
Speaker 1: situation seemed right, or these sorts of things, um, you know,
Speaker 1: for for me, that's that's just not good enough. Wishful
Speaker 1: thinking is not a strategy. You know. I I may
Speaker 1: wish and hope that I would have pure, intense um,
Speaker 1: and most of the time I do, but but sometimes
Speaker 1: I don't. And you know, I would wish that I
Speaker 1: would always want to be selfless and serve my family
Speaker 1: and and put my wife and my kid's best interest
Speaker 1: at heart. Uh, But I know, honestly, as much as
Speaker 1: I wish this wasn't true, that's not always the case.
Speaker 1: So for for me, I would I would rather guard
Speaker 1: and question sort of my motives, my heart, my intent,
Speaker 1: my feelings, and get some feedback there, and then if
Speaker 1: everything seems to check out, if everything seems to be
Speaker 1: clear and level headed, then indeed perceive. But uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I want to pump the brakes a little bit more
Speaker 1: before I step on the gas. Yeah. And I think
Speaker 1: different people fall, you know, in different places on that spectrum.
Speaker 1: But for me, that's certainly has been the case. Is
Speaker 1: that you know, I need to be I need to
Speaker 1: give these things a little bit, a lot of things consideration,
Speaker 1: because kind of just following my best ideas at certain
Speaker 1: points in the past has been very destructive. Now it's
Speaker 1: not nearly as destructive as it used to. Be um,
Speaker 1: but they're still there. And it made me think of
Speaker 1: something else that we interviewed a gentleman recently the pod
Speaker 1: The episode may or may not be out when listeners
Speaker 1: hear this, but he said something He's very focused on behavior.
Speaker 1: He's very much about like, hey, feel what you're feeling,
Speaker 1: Acknowledge it, and then take whatever the next right action is,
Speaker 1: which I think a lot you know, I think aligns
Speaker 1: very closely with a lot of things that that you're saying.
Speaker 1: But he said something that really struck me, and he said,
Speaker 1: when our behavior is not in control, we can't trust
Speaker 1: our feelings. And that really hit me because you know,
Speaker 1: at certain points in my past, a stray feeling could
Speaker 1: lead me, you know, way out into the wilderness. Right
Speaker 1: And and now that I'm a little bit like I've
Speaker 1: got some degree of ability to you know, I've got
Speaker 1: self control to some degree or whatever the word you
Speaker 1: want to use for that is, I think I can
Speaker 1: start to be a little bit more open about exploring
Speaker 1: how I feel instead of trying to tamp those down
Speaker 1: just out of fear. Yeah. I love that, And to me,
Speaker 1: it would raise the question of when your feelings are
Speaker 1: out of control, Um, how are you going to know?
Speaker 1: I mean, is it just is it just relying on
Speaker 1: you sort of taking your own sort of temperature and
Speaker 1: being able to recognize it quick enough, or do you
Speaker 1: have someone in your life who can call you on
Speaker 1: it and say, yeah, things seem off here? Um, you
Speaker 1: know what's going on? And this is an interesting thing
Speaker 1: that happens, you know now in my work with what
Speaker 1: I do. And you know, I'm a successful entrepreneur and
Speaker 1: have experienced sort of you know, success in my in
Speaker 1: my niche industry. There's this interesting thing that happens professionally
Speaker 1: when you become successful, regardless of your field or your
Speaker 1: niche or whatever success means. But success can often bring
Speaker 1: sort of autonomy, meaning you know, less people can call
Speaker 1: you on it. There's less checks and balances for your
Speaker 1: decisions and and for your behavior. And I think you
Speaker 1: have to intentionally, um build in a group of people
Speaker 1: or a person or two or someone who can call
Speaker 1: you on your crap and call you um out when
Speaker 1: your behaviors offer, your emotions are off, your decisions are
Speaker 1: off um or you're too hard, are sure you're not
Speaker 1: decisive enough, or these sorts of things. Uh. Otherwise, you know,
Speaker 1: I feel like you could get pretty pretty far off
Speaker 1: and not even be aware of it. You know, when
Speaker 1: I think back to being a foster kid, one of
Speaker 1: the saddest things that I recall is not the abuse,
Speaker 1: or the not having biological parents or or whatever is weird.
Speaker 1: Does it sounds You kind of get over that pretty
Speaker 1: quickly because it's just normal to you. But the saddest
Speaker 1: thing I recall is thinking that my behavior was a
Speaker 1: hundred percent justified, healthy and fine, um, And it wasn't
Speaker 1: like I was trying to to to lie to myself.
Speaker 1: I genuinely believed it. I genuinely believed these social workers
Speaker 1: or these foster parents who are trying to say, look,
Speaker 1: you're a good kid, but you need help. I thought
Speaker 1: they were naive. I thought they were crazy. I thought
Speaker 1: I have my stuff together. They need to get their
Speaker 1: stuff together. What's wrong with them? So, you know, I
Speaker 1: think sometimes we can deceive ourselves into a position. And
Speaker 1: so whether it be out of isolating through success or
Speaker 1: isolating out of fear of allowing those voices in your
Speaker 1: life and intentionally inviting them in and giving people um permission.
Speaker 1: And you you have to give people permission, You have
Speaker 1: to say Listen, I want you to make me cry
Speaker 1: from time to time. Like, if you're not being that harsh,
Speaker 1: you're not trying. And most other people in my life
Speaker 1: are just gonna be polite and kind and oh yeah,
Speaker 1: good job and blah blah blah. But but that's not
Speaker 1: what I need. That's not what I need from you.
Speaker 1: I can I can get that in a hundred other places.
Speaker 1: But but what's rare is you know someone who will
Speaker 1: tell you straight up, uh, you know, I'm concerned about this.
Speaker 1: You know you might want to second guess this, you
Speaker 1: might want to look at this a little closer. Uh,
Speaker 1: these sorts of things. I think all of us need
Speaker 1: that sort of ambassador in our lives so we so
Speaker 1: we know when we're off or we know when we're not.
Speaker 1: I agree that that's so important. And what I found
Speaker 1: interesting is haven't spent a lot of my adult life,
Speaker 1: um in recovery culture where that's kind of a common thing, right,
Speaker 1: That's that's what being a friend means, um stepping outside
Speaker 1: of that into more into just say, you know, regular culture.
Speaker 1: There's a lot. What I've realized is that permission piece
Speaker 1: is a big part of it. Like, particularly for me
Speaker 1: when someone else I have to find out, like, what
Speaker 1: is the communication I'm having with someone when they're communicating
Speaker 1: with me? What are they looking for here? Because if
Speaker 1: they haven't given me permission for that, boy, I get
Speaker 1: myself in all kinds of trouble trying to tell them right, like,
Speaker 1: here's what I see. I mean, my motive is that
Speaker 1: I really want to be helpful. But um, I think that,
Speaker 1: and I think that if we haven't given somebody permission,
Speaker 1: then when someone does that to us, it's the almost
Speaker 1: the only inevitable response is to be somewhat defensive. And
Speaker 1: that's why I think to your point, it's so good
Speaker 1: to say to certain people, hey, I really want you
Speaker 1: to do that, and then we've kind of opened that
Speaker 1: door and we can listen to them versus someone who
Speaker 1: we haven't given that permission to. Oh dude, I hear you.
Speaker 1: I have. I have realized the hard way, the painful way,
Speaker 1: that the only people I give advice to our people
Speaker 1: that ask for it. Otherwise you're wasting both individuals times. Um,
Speaker 1: you know you can. You can want someone to change,
Speaker 1: you can want someone to improve, you can you can
Speaker 1: want that all day long, but until they want that
Speaker 1: from themselves, and you know, they ask the question or
Speaker 1: or give you permission or say, hey, what do you
Speaker 1: think of the situation? Be honest with me. Now you
Speaker 1: have the authority, Now you have permission, and your words
Speaker 1: are actually going to be useful and helpful instead of
Speaker 1: you just you know, being the boy who cried wolf
Speaker 1: and spouting off great information but no one's listening, right.
Speaker 1: And I think the other piece of that is that
Speaker 1: balance of when when does someone including myself, like when
Speaker 1: am I When do I need somebody to sort of
Speaker 1: hear what I'm saying and understand? And when do I
Speaker 1: need someone to you know, help me course correct? And
Speaker 1: maybe sometimes it's you know, it's both. First it's here
Speaker 1: and understand and then and then the course correct piece.
Speaker 1: But I'm always interested in that, I seem to It
Speaker 1: seems to be the paradox is that that draw me
Speaker 1: draw my interest in life. And the one that I
Speaker 1: explore a lot on the show is you know, you
Speaker 1: have a feeling, and we tend to go one of
Speaker 1: two ways with that. One is we just indulge it
Speaker 1: and we wallow in it and we you know, we
Speaker 1: roll around in it, or the other is we can
Speaker 1: go to the other extreme and just do whatever we
Speaker 1: can and make that feeling go away. And some of
Speaker 1: those things are overtly destructive, right like I'm going to
Speaker 1: just go get hammered. That's one way to make it
Speaker 1: go away. But as you described, you could be very
Speaker 1: productive and work very hard and make that feeling go away.
Speaker 1: And I'm always interest it in how people find that
Speaker 1: balance with themselves between that indulging and that repressing. M hmm, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean this this reminds me a lot of actually,
Speaker 1: uh you know, a challenge that I've that I've had
Speaker 1: in my in my marriage because my what I do
Speaker 1: for a living, just the way I think is all right,
Speaker 1: here's a problem, let's figure out a solution. Here is
Speaker 1: sort of a situation. Okay, what tactically can be done? Um,
Speaker 1: you know. But but sometimes my wife is just like,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't need advice. I don't want you to
Speaker 1: to solve it for me. I just want to be heard. Okay, Yes,
Speaker 1: I see, all right, I just I just need I
Speaker 1: need to listen and then I you know, perhaps later
Speaker 1: with that ideally, then um, you know, some sort of
Speaker 1: action or something stems from that. Yeah, and I you
Speaker 1: know what I find that I wrestle with is UM.
Speaker 1: I won't name whether what relationships in my life it's
Speaker 1: a part of because I'd like to keep those relationships.
Speaker 1: But UM is when that that seems to be a
Speaker 1: repeated pattern and I sit there and I watch, like
Speaker 1: what appears to be self inflicted pain, and then I
Speaker 1: sit and I listen and I and I hear it
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to it's and and some of that
Speaker 1: is a judgment, but I know I wrestle with that
Speaker 1: where I'm like, you know, I know you just want
Speaker 1: me to listen, but I just I get I get
Speaker 1: hung up on that sometimes where I want to you know,
Speaker 1: it's just hard to watch people you care about repeat
Speaker 1: the same sort of painful patterns, and if they're pretty minor,
Speaker 1: but it's this, it's this, you know, the self inflicted wounds.
Speaker 1: I relate to that. And you know, talk about a
Speaker 1: clear example of someone calling me out on something. Is that, UM.
Speaker 1: You know a buddy of mine that I give permission
Speaker 1: to to call me out on stuff. He said, Josh,
Speaker 1: you have this, you have this broken thinking that that
Speaker 1: there are basically two options that you can either help
Speaker 1: someone UM, or that you can sort of enable someone
Speaker 1: and you think those are the only two options. So so,
Speaker 1: you know, I believe that, you know, just hearing someone
Speaker 1: out is sort of enabling. Like, oh that's interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you did the same thing over and over and over
Speaker 1: and over and you still got that negative results. Oh interesting. Wow,
Speaker 1: I'm really surprised, you know, so I view it as
Speaker 1: either like that, like enabling and just being a part
Speaker 1: of the problem, or that it's like going to attack
Speaker 1: it and hold you accountable and and harsh and let's
Speaker 1: get up in its face and this and that. Um.
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm really having to learn kind of I
Speaker 1: guess the gray areas of life of you know, how
Speaker 1: can you without compromising either, how can you really sort
Speaker 1: of hear someone out, try to understand what they're feeling
Speaker 1: or whatever that's in their mind. No, none of us
Speaker 1: are stupid that in their mind is justifying the behavior
Speaker 1: or excusing it or allowing it or whatever. Um, and
Speaker 1: then just ask questions to find out whether or not
Speaker 1: they're ready to get on with sort of the the
Speaker 1: solving of it. And you know, okay, well, would you
Speaker 1: like to hear other people have dealt with that? Or
Speaker 1: you know, would you like to hear this interesting thing
Speaker 1: that I've read about someone else who went through that
Speaker 1: same sort of thing, um, And if they're not there
Speaker 1: then then very well. But that's it's been an interesting
Speaker 1: sort of struggle for me, um, as a guy who
Speaker 1: you know, had a hard life, went through, you know,
Speaker 1: challenges made and made enough of my own challenges to
Speaker 1: still have that compassion peace Because to me, it's just like,
Speaker 1: you know, if I hear a SOB story, it's like,
Speaker 1: suck it up. I was a foster kid who cares.
Speaker 1: Let's deal with this, you know. So so I I,
Speaker 1: wrongly or rightly have little compassion for sort of the
Speaker 1: the whining component. But I'm beginning, though slowly, to see,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes that that whining or really more accurately,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of expressing it, talking it out, getting
Speaker 1: this stuff off your chest. Um, I guess can be
Speaker 1: a part of the process. I don't feel like I
Speaker 1: really yet have arrived at believing this, but I know
Speaker 1: it's true, and it's something I'm I'm trying to grow
Speaker 1: in and and move towards myself. Yeah, well I will, um,
Speaker 1: I will give you back one of your own phrases
Speaker 1: in in uh with that because I agree. I wrestle
Speaker 1: with everything you just talked about. But when you said that,
Speaker 1: you were talking about talking it out, and I realized
Speaker 1: that one of your phrases that I like is what
Speaker 1: you don't talk out, you act out. Mm hmm yep. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so true. And you know you see it with
Speaker 1: with you know, friends, loved ones, you know, kids I
Speaker 1: work with. You know, these are these are folks that
Speaker 1: are typically you know, uh, you know, decent, good human beings, um,
Speaker 1: you know. And I see this in my own life.
Speaker 1: It's like, I could, you know, I have something stressful
Speaker 1: happen in my business or um it was someone I
Speaker 1: work with or whatever, and I haven't quite resolved it,
Speaker 1: and the ego side of me doesn't want to talk
Speaker 1: it out with my wife or whatever, so you know,
Speaker 1: it's easier for me to sort of take it out
Speaker 1: on her or maybe I feel out of control, was
Speaker 1: something at work, and so I try to control this
Speaker 1: situation with my family instead of Okay, what's really going
Speaker 1: on here, Let me sort of talk through this, get
Speaker 1: this off my chest, so it's not sort of bubbling
Speaker 1: up in in other ways. I mean, you definitely see
Speaker 1: that with kids either neither flip in or flip out.
Speaker 1: You know, they just sort of take it out on everyone,
Speaker 1: or they talked to no one about it, which neither
Speaker 1: is good, neither is ideal, and uh particularly flipping in
Speaker 1: and talking to no one about it. Then not only
Speaker 1: do you have a problem, which we all do, not
Speaker 1: only do you have challenges you're dealing with which we
Speaker 1: all do, but but no one knows. And it's sort
Speaker 1: of the secret silent thing eating away at you, uh,
Speaker 1: that that you're not only not giving other people permission
Speaker 1: to help with, but sort of not giving yourself permission
Speaker 1: to face. When you were just talking about that, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of sharing what's happening with your family or made
Speaker 1: me think of one of the challenges I have with
Speaker 1: that is if you know, at least for me, I've
Speaker 1: been thinking about these these you know, again, I just
Speaker 1: use the word personal development or whatever ideas for so
Speaker 1: long that I usually feel like I know what the
Speaker 1: answer is in my head, and so then I just don't.
Speaker 1: I go, what am I got? You know, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go tell somebody, So what are they gonna They're gonna
Speaker 1: tell me what I already know? Like, what's the point
Speaker 1: and I'm amazed again and again by two things. One
Speaker 1: is how often just connecting with another person around it helps,
Speaker 1: you know, regardless of even if you know they don't
Speaker 1: have something a particular piece of advice. So I'm kind
Speaker 1: of a used it at how often that helps. And
Speaker 1: I'm amazed at how hard it is for me to
Speaker 1: ever learn that lesson consistently with without having to relearn it,
Speaker 1: Like after I sit on it for a month and
Speaker 1: I go, maybe I should, you know, It's just it's amazing.
Speaker 1: I feel like we as humans have sort of good
Speaker 1: behavior amnesia. Uh. You know, if if a forty eight
Speaker 1: hour period has passed when you you know, got up
Speaker 1: early and got your day started for the kids, got
Speaker 1: up or exercise first thing, or you know, talked out
Speaker 1: an issue or whatever. I feel like once four to
Speaker 1: eight hours passes, you just completely forget that was a
Speaker 1: good idea, there was any benefit from it, any of
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So, uh, that sucks. I really
Speaker 1: have no solution for it. But I just noticed that
Speaker 1: I've just said probably hundreds of times in my life,
Speaker 1: like I don't know why I still have to wrestle
Speaker 1: with exercise because it is one of those things that
Speaker 1: every single time is a very positive thing for me
Speaker 1: and I immediately feel better. And yet it is still
Speaker 1: what you'd think something that that was that good, that
Speaker 1: had that many benefits with no no downside, I would
Speaker 1: consume it like a drug. And I know, you know,
Speaker 1: people you can get to that point, but it's still
Speaker 1: for me one of those things that I have to
Speaker 1: sort of gently push myself to do. Mm hmm, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's almost like we need a almost like some sort
Speaker 1: of journal or some sort of log that we can
Speaker 1: remind ourselves of, like, no, no, this this work. You'll
Speaker 1: be You'll be glad that you did this. I've heard
Speaker 1: you say that. You know, so we we can look
Speaker 1: in our lives and we could look out there and
Speaker 1: you know, so say somebody who says, boy, I would
Speaker 1: love to inspire young people, and they look out and
Speaker 1: they see Josh Shipp right, and they go, that's what
Speaker 1: I want, you know, that's what I want to do. Um.
Speaker 1: But what you what I've heard you say, is don't
Speaker 1: go get training an accountability on how to be Josh Ship.
Speaker 1: Go get training an accountability on the first three steps
Speaker 1: you need to take along that long journey because obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, to get to the point you've gotten in
Speaker 1: your career has taken you know, probably well over a decade,
Speaker 1: you know. So I just thought that was an interesting
Speaker 1: perspective to to be looking at. What I need help
Speaker 1: on is these things that are right in front of
Speaker 1: me that almost seem mundane. Yeah, I mean, it definitely
Speaker 1: takes ten years to become an overnight success. And it's
Speaker 1: a challenge I faced early on, is that I would
Speaker 1: look out on the landscape and identify a mentor two
Speaker 1: or someone I looked up to, you know, a zig
Speaker 1: Ziggler or what have you, and be like, Okay, they're
Speaker 1: sort of a proven entity, a proven model. So therefore
Speaker 1: success can can only mean zig Ziggler, you know, a
Speaker 1: success can only mean insert the name of your mentor
Speaker 1: or your hero or your role model. Um. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think instinctively we know like, okay, I don't want
Speaker 1: to be a cookie cutter that's not going to be
Speaker 1: as valuable or interesting or compelling or those sorts of things.
Speaker 1: But I think there's a sort of deeper fear component
Speaker 1: happening of just like they're proven, we're not um. You know,
Speaker 1: they're tested and proven and we're not yet. And so
Speaker 1: I think two things. I think number one, you have
Speaker 1: to um stay ambitious, but also be fine with crappy
Speaker 1: first drafts. Because anything in life, my opinion, that ends
Speaker 1: up being great, starts as a crappy first draft. And
Speaker 1: you just have to be willing to swallow your pride,
Speaker 1: your ego and go through the painful process of being
Speaker 1: a crappy first draft. It doesn't mean that you're that
Speaker 1: your intention is crappy, or that your motivation is crappy,
Speaker 1: or that your earnestness is crappy. It just means probably
Speaker 1: you have a very fine taste in what in what
Speaker 1: you should be, and you're not yet going to be
Speaker 1: there because because being there is not given to a
Speaker 1: select few, it's earned through hours and hours of of
Speaker 1: ego crushing, um fine tuning and and and improvement. And
Speaker 1: then the second point is, yeah, don't you know use
Speaker 1: the one day I want to be Josh Ship or
Speaker 1: zig Zigul or whoever. You know, that's your carrot. That's
Speaker 1: the thing you can fantasize about when it gets really
Speaker 1: really difficult, but it's not going to help you move
Speaker 1: the needle immediately. What helps you move them needle immediately
Speaker 1: is not doing what I'm doing now, but doing what
Speaker 1: I did ten years ago. What are those initial first steps?
Speaker 1: What are the what are those first steps? And and
Speaker 1: and only get your training and accountability around those first
Speaker 1: few steps. Otherwise step ten or a hundred or one thousand,
Speaker 1: you're never even going to get the chance to take. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's such great advice. It's really easy to
Speaker 1: just get lost in what to do? You know, what
Speaker 1: what is the path to becoming you know, let's just
Speaker 1: say your motivational speaker as you think you could find
Speaker 1: a thousand different things on the internet about doing that
Speaker 1: and all and but but a lot of it is
Speaker 1: is just like you said, what what are the first
Speaker 1: couple of things that I can do right where I'm at?
Speaker 1: And I just believe so much in that sort of
Speaker 1: start right where you are right now, and you can
Speaker 1: take steps in whatever direction you want. I'm always amazed
Speaker 1: by what a series of what seemed like inconsequential small
Speaker 1: steps look like over a period of time. It's remarkable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the Internet is tricky because it can bring mentors very
Speaker 1: close to you, but there can also be sort of
Speaker 1: a deep dive into mentor porn where you're just like
Speaker 1: constantly looking up other speakers or other coffee shop owners
Speaker 1: or other graphic artists, and you're just comparing, and you're
Speaker 1: feeling worse and worse about yourself as a human being
Speaker 1: and an artist and this and that, and you're just
Speaker 1: constantly spending your days comparing or judging or getting mad
Speaker 1: at them, or you know, thinking that if if they
Speaker 1: reply to your email, that's going to make your career
Speaker 1: or whatever, instead of like, no, let me figure out
Speaker 1: what my you know, first couple of steps are and
Speaker 1: get about the difficult, challenging, frustrating work of doing those. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's funny mentor poor, that's good, but I I yeah,
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, that's that. There is a lot of that, um.
Speaker 1: And if it's not being comparing, ourselves are being frustrated.
Speaker 1: It is um you know, spending our time dreaming of
Speaker 1: what it would be like to be there instead of
Speaker 1: you know, doing the doing the work we like you
Speaker 1: said that we need to do kind of right here today.
Speaker 1: And by the way, there is the exact same thing
Speaker 1: as here. I mean right now, I am fit, you know,
Speaker 1: ten years later and I'm a success, and here I
Speaker 1: am on your podcast and blah blah blah, whoop do
Speaker 1: you do? But ten years later, I, you know, new levels,
Speaker 1: new devils, Like, there are things I'm overwhelmed by. There
Speaker 1: are things I I have no idea how to handle,
Speaker 1: and I'm having to seek out mentors and training an
Speaker 1: accountability around. Um. You know, So don't kid yourself and
Speaker 1: thinking that you know, one day when you reach a
Speaker 1: promised land, that it's just going to be easy and
Speaker 1: and all we is fun and always you know, you know,
Speaker 1: completely void of training and accountability and and those sorts
Speaker 1: of things. Uh, when you reach that there, all of
Speaker 1: that is going to be there as well. So you know,
Speaker 1: when you're starting, you have the opportunity to sort of
Speaker 1: train those muscles, train that humility of going out and
Speaker 1: getting training or help or coaching or or support or
Speaker 1: therapy or whatever the case may be, um to overcome
Speaker 1: those current hurdles, because the hurdles are always going to
Speaker 1: be there as you continue to grow in your influence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think there's a deep fantasy in a lot of
Speaker 1: us that we will reach a level where everything will
Speaker 1: be easy. Life will just be easy and will always
Speaker 1: be happy. And I just don't think that's the way,
Speaker 1: by and large, were designed. I don't think. I just don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think that exists, and yet we set ourselves
Speaker 1: up to think that when we get there, that will happen.
Speaker 1: And so it's always that tricky balance for me of
Speaker 1: I'm driving, I'm growing, um, I want to go to
Speaker 1: these different places, and yet I also know how to
Speaker 1: be completely appreciative and happy with right where I'm at today.
Speaker 1: Because if we don't have that skill, it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: what level we get to, we won't enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And we say we want that life that's easy and
Speaker 1: no stress and no challenges, but I don't really, I
Speaker 1: don't really think we would. I agree, I certainly think
Speaker 1: I would be, you know, bored out of my mind
Speaker 1: and probably get into all kinds of trouble exactly. All right, Josh, Well,
Speaker 1: thanks so much. This has been a really fun conversation.
Speaker 1: I've been looking forward to talking to you for a while,
Speaker 1: so I'm glad we got to do this. Yep, cool man,
Speaker 1: all right, Thanks Josh, alright, take care, Okay, Spite. You
Speaker 1: can learn more about Josh and this podcast at one
Speaker 1: you feed dot net slash Josh