1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to talking politics. I'ms Cup. We're gonna get right 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: into it today. I don't know if you caught this 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: this week. Because there's always so much going on, even 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: major earth chattering, jaw dropping for alarm stories can fall 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: through the cracks. But this is a big one. Donald 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: Trump said this week that he wants to nationalize elections. Now, 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: maybe that doesn't immediately send the chill down your spine 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: that it did mine, but it should. On Monday, Trump 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: was on with former FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino on 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: his podcast That's Right. Dan's back doing what he loves, 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: lying for money. 12 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 2: No more of that. 13 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: Boring bureaucratic office job at the FBI where he had to, 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: you know, tell the truth. 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: Yuck. 16 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: He's back behind the mic where he can push more 17 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: baseless conspiracy theories. 18 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 2: And Trump was happy to come on and drop a douce. 19 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: Take a listen. 20 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 3: The Republicans should say we want to take over, we 21 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 3: should take over the voting, the voting and at least 22 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 3: many fifteen places the Republicans or to nationalize the voting. 23 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 3: And we have states that are so crooked and the 24 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 3: accounting votes. We have states that I won that shoe 25 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 3: I didn't win. 26 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: Okay, right, So not only should we nationalize elections so 27 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: move them from local to federal control, but also one 28 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: party should be in charge of them. Sounds like a 29 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: great idea, mister President. After some initial outrage, the White 30 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: House tried to walk this back, saying Trump was really 31 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: talking about voter ID. 32 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 2: What that is? 33 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 3: What? 34 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: Spokesperson Caroline Levitt said, he was talking about voter ID. 35 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 2: No, he wasn't. 36 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: That's just a lie, and Levitt would later be contradicted 37 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: by Trump himself. He doubled down on the idea in 38 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: the Oval a day later. Take a listen, look. 39 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 4: At some of the places horrible corruption on elections, and 40 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 4: the federal government should not allow that. The federal government 41 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 4: should get involved. These are agents of the federal government 42 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 4: to count the votes. If they can't count the votes 43 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 4: legally and honestly, then somebody else should take over. 44 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: Okay, nar Orders' voice, They did count the votes legally 45 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: and honestly. Okay, but let's unpack this first in case 46 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: you're not aware. 47 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: And that's okay. Not everyone has to be an expert 48 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: in all of this, but the Constitution insists that. 49 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: States run their own elections. Okay, why because it makes 50 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: them harder to hack. Decentralizing elections was intentional. It was 51 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: important for the founding fathers. It was meant to protect 52 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: the integrity of elections from federal overreach but also from 53 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: foreign intervention and domestic mucking about. It's in the Constitution 54 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: because it's easier to rig one election if it's national 55 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: then it would be to rike fifty. 56 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: Okay. 57 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: That's why it's real simple and it's entshrined in the Constitution. Secondly, 58 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: and I know Trump doesn't care about this kind of thing, 59 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: but Republicans, his own party, are very much into this 60 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: thing called states rights, this thing called federalism. It's kind 61 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: of like their entire personality. They're real into it. Now 62 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: are they willing to sort of look the other way 63 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: if hypothetically Trump found some way to do this, maybe 64 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: they're spineless, But generally speaking, Republicans really like federalism, this 65 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: idea that there's separation between what the federal government does 66 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: and states do. Okay, but Trump doesn't care about ideas 67 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: and principles. I know that, and he's frankly, he's pissed 68 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: all over Conservatism since coming into power. That began with 69 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: his total disregard for or the debt and the deficit 70 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: it carried through to this terms embraceive tariffs or protectionism. 71 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: These are things conservatives used to really care about. They 72 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: don't anymore. The things that used to animate the right 73 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: no longer do because they can't. He doesn't care about them, 74 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: and frankly, they often get in his way. Family values, 75 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: please please law and order. 76 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: Who needs it? 77 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: Strong national defense only if by strong you mean moronic. 78 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: And republican lawmakers. 79 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: Just let him do this, Let him jettison the conservatism, 80 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: Let him trample on all the ideas and principles and 81 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: policies that they had, you know, previously cared a lot about. 82 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: They happily co signed as tariffs. They watched as he 83 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: exploded the debt and the deficit. They turned the other 84 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: way at his criminality and immorality. What family values defended 85 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: police attacking insurrectionists at the capitol. He even managed to 86 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: tick off the Second Amendment crowd with his crackdown on 87 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,559 Speaker 1: guns at protests and in Washington, DC. Because he doesn't 88 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: care about anything but himself. None of that's conservative, But 89 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: so long as they kept winning. Cowardly Republicans not named 90 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: Liz Cheney or Adam Kinsinger. They just didn't seem to care. Okay, 91 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: But finally, this idea is so transparently self serving and 92 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: self soothing. 93 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 2: He needs this. 94 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: Trump's call to nationalize elections, of course, is in service 95 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: to his election lie. It's an answer to the non 96 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: existent scourge of voter fraud that rigged just the twenty 97 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: twenty election, and somehow not the twenty sixteen or the 98 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four elections. 99 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 2: Those ones were fine, okay, But. 100 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: The funny thing is Trump Trump is the one attempting 101 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: the rigging. He's tried to end mail in ballots and 102 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: voting machines. He has sued two dozen blue states for 103 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: their voter roles. He embarked on a rare mid decade 104 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: redistricting campaign. He dismantled the FBI's Foreign Influence Task Force, 105 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: which tries to keep foreign influences from meddling in our election. 106 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: Why would that be important. He pardoned dozens of people 107 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: who had signed false election certifications for him. 108 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty. Right, that was all fine. 109 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: Those people who tampered in the elections got pardoned from Trump, 110 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: who wants to end tampering in elections. 111 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 2: Okay. 112 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: Now, it's very tempting to dismiss this idea nationalizing elections 113 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: as merely, like I said, a self soothing ramble, you know, 114 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 1: like the nonsensical blurring of an old man still fixated 115 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: on imaginary injustice. But it should offend and worry everyone, 116 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: not the least of all Republicans. But for House Speaker 117 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: Mike Johnson, it will not surprise you to learn it's 118 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: nothing to get worked up about, guys. He said, what 119 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: you're hearing from the President is this frustration about the 120 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: lack of some blue states, frankly, of enforcing these things 121 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: and making sure that they are free and fair elections. 122 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: What what say Less. 123 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: Democrats are rightly concerned, though, and they are preparing for 124 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: potential quote federal government intrusion in the midterms. That is 125 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: a scary and frankly wants an unimaginable thought. Minnesota Secretary 126 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: of State Steve Simon said this is now a legitimate 127 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: planning category. It's extraordinarily sad, but it would be irresponsible 128 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: for us. 129 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: To disregard the possibility. 130 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: What he's saying is there's now committee in Minnesota, and 131 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: Minnesota is not the only state doing less. 132 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: That is preparing. 133 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: For government intervention, federal government intervention in our midterm elections. 134 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: That's insane, that is extraordinarily sad. But that's where we are. 135 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: And it's no joke. You know, at some point, under 136 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: enough pressure, Trump will, I'm sure say he was joking. 137 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 2: He is not. 138 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: I don't know how far he's gonna go to try 139 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: to rig the midterms. 140 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: I think he's. 141 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: Testing the fences now and seeing like who's with me, Like, well, Ferrell, 142 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: who's going, We're going streaking, who's with me? I think 143 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: he's trying to find out if anyone's with him on 144 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: this and if they'll go as far as he wants 145 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: them to. 146 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: Okay, after the break, I will talk. 147 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: To CNN legal analyst Eli Honig about this and a 148 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: bunch of other big stories percolating this week to get 149 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 1: his legal eye on them, from the Emstein files to 150 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: Don Lemon's arrest. 151 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 5: So don't go anywhere. Welcome back to Talking Politics. 152 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: I'm so happy to be joined by my CNN colleague, 153 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: senior legal analyst, former assistant US attorney, Ellie Honig. He 154 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: is author, most recently of the book When You Come 155 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,719 Speaker 1: for the King. Inside DJ's pursuit of the president from 156 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: Nixon to Trump. 157 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: Thanks for coming, Ellie. 158 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 6: I'm so happy to be with you here. 159 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 7: Essie, you are one of the best green room hangs available. 160 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 7: And that's a thing that's a known thing. I'm not 161 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 7: going to name names, but there's some people ninety percent 162 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 7: of the people you walk in the green room and 163 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 7: go oh good, ten percent you go uh yeah, but 164 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 7: you are in the top five percent. 165 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: It's one of the you know, it's one of those intangibles, 166 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: yeah right, that you can't really measure in someone's career, 167 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: but being a good green room is a thing. 168 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 2: You're right, yeah, and you're excellent too. 169 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 6: Thank you. I appreciate it. 170 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: Okay, I want to start with kind of a big 171 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: question and then we'll drill down to some specific stories 172 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: from the week. 173 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: Between the Epstein files, the. 174 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:22,439 Speaker 1: Attempts at prosecuting Trump's enemies, the resignations, the arrest of 175 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: journalists right the Department of Justice, in my opinion, has 176 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: become something. 177 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 2: Of an embarrassment. 178 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: I am not tarnishing the reputation of individuals who work there. 179 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: I know there are many good people still at DOJ, 180 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: But on the whole, LA, how would you describe the 181 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: DOJ's reputation at the moment. 182 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 7: This has been a disastrous year for DJ, and I 183 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 7: wish you know, I don't often say, you know, go 184 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 7: to extremes right now, I know at your a very level, yeah, 185 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 7: but what has happened to DJ in the last year 186 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 7: is unprecedented. 187 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 6: I hate you know it is. 188 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 7: It is a complete dish struction of DJ's credibility and independence. 189 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 7: I'm actually writing a piece for New York Magazine to 190 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 7: come out maybe the day this podcast comes out, about 191 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 7: six questions that Pam Bondi needs to answer when she 192 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 7: goes in front of Congress on Wednesday, February eleventh. And 193 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 7: I say, essentially, Bondi has presided over and facilitated the 194 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 7: destruction of everything DJ stands for. And let me be 195 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 7: I mean, you raised a couple of good examples, right, 196 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 7: So let's look at how they have handled. 197 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 6: The Minnesota situation for example. 198 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 7: Okay, first of all, Renee Good fatally shot and DOOJ 199 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 7: And by the way, Todd Blanche, who I should say 200 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 7: I worked with for I don't know eight nine years 201 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 7: at STY know him well. Todd Blanche immediately comes out 202 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 7: there has been no investigation and he says there will 203 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 7: be no criminal investigation. Okay, whatever you want to do. 204 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 7: I've seen people parse that video both ways. There needs 205 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 7: to be an investigation, right, it's a close enough call. 206 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 7: And then when it gets worse with the alex Pretty shooting, 207 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 7: they tried the same thing, but the pushback was so 208 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 7: serious and that they had to walk it back. They 209 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 7: shut out the state authorities from an investigation, something you 210 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 7: would never do. They have shown no willingness to investigate 211 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 7: anything that might be politically inconvenient. At the same time, 212 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 7: what do we learn they're investigating. They're investigating at one 213 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 7: point Renee Good and well she's died, but her widow 214 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 7: for their political associations, for who does she deal with. 215 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 7: We learned that they're investigating the mayor, the governor for 216 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 7: their political speech. Look, I've been critical of some of 217 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 7: the things that Tim Wallas and Jacob bry have said. 218 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 6: But criminal absolutely, no way. And then of course I'm 219 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 6: not going to do a pun here. 220 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 7: But the cherry on top is the arrest of Don Lemon, 221 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 7: which is whatever one thinks of Don. And I know 222 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 7: you've been candid about you know you're not a fan 223 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 7: of his personally. 224 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 6: I had a good relationship with him. 225 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 7: But I think we agree that that arrest was outrageous 226 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 7: and this is just the caapir. This is just the 227 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 7: last I don't know three weeks. There's so much that's 228 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 7: gone wrong before that. 229 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: Is it purely the infiltration of politics into two doj 230 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: Or is it also in competence? 231 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 6: It's both, yes, both. 232 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 7: I wrote a piece again for New York Magazine a 233 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 7: month or so ago about Cash Betel, but I liked 234 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 7: the phrasing, and I think it applies to a lot 235 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 7: of this, the malignant incompetence of Cash Bttel, all right, 236 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 7: and I would apply that to a lot of this. 237 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 7: So let's start with the competency piece Pam Bondi, and 238 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 7: look I am. I wrote a piece for The New 239 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 7: York Times that they published the day of Pam Bondi's 240 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 7: confirmation hearing, and the essential theme of it was she 241 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 7: is qualified on paper. 242 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 6: The question will be is she independent? 243 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 7: I don't even I mean she's qualified because she was 244 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 7: a state prosecutor in Florida for a long time. She 245 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 7: was ag of Florida. But the way she has gone 246 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 7: about the job, she's clueless. She doesn't she's contradicting and 247 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 7: being contradicted by her deputy by Todd on a daily basis. 248 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 7: Todd says they're investigating something. She says they're not, back 249 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 7: and forth. The people they've hired, they bringing in these 250 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 7: clowns like Ed Martin who's now on his way out, 251 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 7: like like Lindsay Halligan who's gone Alina Habba, I mean 252 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 7: when I. 253 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 6: Say the only ones left, yeah, And when people. 254 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: Resign because they don't want to prosecute enemies without cause, 255 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: when people resign because they don't like the way things 256 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: are doing, the only people left are not usually good actors. 257 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 7: Well, and let me give you an example that in 258 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 7: the US Attorney's office for the District of Minnesota, six people, 259 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 7: including the number two person, resigned on mass. That entire 260 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 7: office is about sixty to seventy prosecutors. 261 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 6: So ten percent walk out. 262 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 7: And it's no different than if, if you know what 263 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 7: your fair, if the Red Sox lost ten percent of 264 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 7: their roster, right, they would suffer. And so you're seeing 265 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 7: that all over and some of them are loud resignations, 266 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 7: obvious protest resignations that we've seen, and others are just 267 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 7: people running for cover and getting the hell out of there. 268 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 7: So it's unlike anything that I saw on my time 269 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 7: at DJ or in my time covering DJ. 270 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: I'm sure, what's the first thing you'd do if you 271 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: were appointed attorney general by the next president? 272 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 6: Oh my god, to bring a st some. 273 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 2: Guardrails for Donald Trump. 274 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: But yeah, but let's some some I love that some 275 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: president forget whatever party comes in wants to overhaul the 276 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: DOJ undo some of the damage. 277 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 2: You're the attorney general, what's like the first thing you do? 278 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 6: I love that question. 279 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 7: I've never been asked that I would call a l 280 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 7: I would call a public speech for the Great Hall 281 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 7: at the Justice Department. I would gather as many a 282 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 7: USA is and FBI agents and and support staff as 283 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 7: I could fit in there. I would invite the cameras, 284 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 7: and I would say, we will be politically independent. The 285 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 7: era of political weaponization of DJ is over on my watch. 286 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 6: It ends. 287 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 7: And you know, the end of my book that you 288 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 7: mentioned before is sort of a plea to this next 289 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 7: hypothetical president, whoever it will be. You know, Democrat, Republican JD. Vance, JB. Pritzker, 290 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 7: name your person that when you take office, president forty eight, 291 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 7: you're going to find that a lot of guardrails are gone, right, 292 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 7: DOJ's independence, use of Special Council ethics, restrictions on profiteer, 293 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 7: you know, emoluments, all all this stuff, and you know what, 294 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 7: it's going to be kind of tempting to leave some 295 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 7: of those guardrails on the ground, right. Who what president 296 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 7: really likes these restrictions being hemmed in? Yeah, yeah, exactly, 297 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 7: Like what president wouldn't like to turn a buck, you know, 298 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 7: on a crypto scheme if they could. Maybe some wouldn't, 299 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 7: But but DOJ independence is just too important to sacrifice. 300 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 7: It has to come back because you know, Donald Trump 301 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 7: is obviously very aggressive in his use of executive power. 302 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 7: And I've analogized it, like imagine. 303 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 6: It's a toolshd. 304 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 7: Like you know, you have all these different tools and 305 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 7: each of them does a different thing, and that's the 306 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 7: different agencies. 307 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 6: But by far the sharpest and most. 308 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 7: Dangerous tool in that tool shed is the Department Justice, 309 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 7: because that's the only department that can deprive someone of 310 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 7: their liberty. Even the military can't take away some liberty. 311 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 7: So that to me needs to be out of touch. 312 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: I love it. You've got my vote. 313 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into some specifics. You mentioned Don Lemon's arrest. 314 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: Does does the government have a case? 315 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 2: And I remember you and I talked. 316 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: About this when it happened back at the Bureau. I 317 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: was like, what if, what if this is a bit 318 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: of a trap? What if the government has some evidence 319 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: maybe some phone, some video, whatever that we don't we 320 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: are not aware of, And. 321 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: You know they've set a trap. What do you think 322 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:24,479 Speaker 2: their case looks like? 323 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 7: I don't think they do have that case, and I 324 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 7: don't think there was a trap. And here's why they 325 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 7: laid out their case in not just detail, but a 326 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 7: bit hyperbolically in their indictment. And I read through on 327 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 7: radio the other day when I was hosting on Serious XM. 328 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 7: I said, let's okay, the dividing line here is between 329 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 7: journalists and participant, all right, right, And I know all 330 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 7: the critics. 331 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: And that's what the case comes down to, right, Yes, 332 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: the participants may have behaved criminally. 333 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 6: The participants committed a crime, yes, okay. 334 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 2: So the question is was Don Lemon with them or 335 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 2: covering them? 336 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 4: Right? 337 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 6: Right? Exactly? 338 00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 2: Okay? 339 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 7: And I'm well aware of all the criticism of Don. 340 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 7: Yes he's hard left, Yes he does things that are outrageous. 341 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 7: Now you know, he's a shock journalist. Now I get it, 342 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 7: but he's still a journalist. I was on Abbey Phillips 343 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 7: show the other night. Someone tried to argue he doesn't 344 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 7: qualify as a journalist. That's crazy. I mean, you can 345 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 7: say he's not an unbiased journalist, or he's not a truant, 346 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 7: but he is a journalist. So I went through that indictment, 347 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 7: every mention of Don, and to me, there's maybe a 348 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 7: couple of points where he maybe has a toe right 349 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 7: at the line or right over the line. But let 350 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 7: me tell you something to see if it's a mixed bag, 351 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,239 Speaker 7: that's a losing bag for prosecutors because you have to 352 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 7: prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt, unanimously. And the 353 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 7: closest thing. Look, he knew this was going to happen. 354 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 7: He was pre briefed that this tempt. 355 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 6: Exactly. It happens all the time. 356 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 7: Don also tells his people, his cameraman or whatever, don't 357 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 7: let anyone know where we're going, right, it's a secret location. 358 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 7: He's there with them, and then they try to go 359 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 7: with like he was oh, physically intimidating and stood very 360 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 7: close to the pastor we've seen it video Don's interviewing 361 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 7: the pastor. Pastor's not terrified of Don. Don there, they're 362 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 7: going at it in a healthy way, and Don didn't 363 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 7: initiate physical contact with it. They don't touch each other 364 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 7: in any meaningful way. And then they're like, oh, Don 365 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 7: was obstructing the exit. People, Look, Don's not that big 366 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 7: of a guy. 367 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 6: I mean, you and I know it. 368 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 7: He's not like he's not like you know, it's not 369 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 7: like if you had Travis Rolsey blocking the exit or something. 370 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, so. 371 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 7: Like he you know, And that's the hyperbole. But that's 372 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 7: the best they have. And to me, let's assume. Let's 373 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 7: assume two things. Let's assume that the protesters committed a 374 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 7: crime in that church. Let's give that as a granted yeah, 375 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 7: and let's also conceide that Don is a hard left, outrageous, 376 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 7: over the top, unorthodox. 377 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 6: Reporter or whatever you want to do, whatever you want 378 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 6: to call it. 379 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 7: I still do not see him at any point clearly 380 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 7: crossing that line from journalists to participant. 381 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: Okay, good, Let's move on to the Epstein files. You 382 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: said a bit ago you thought the dj was on 383 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: pace to release the files in twenty. 384 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 6: To thirty this is so funny. 385 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, like I'm not for real. Is that for real? 386 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 7: So here's what happened. So DJ, this is amazing. This 387 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,479 Speaker 7: is one of these things that happens in media sometimes 388 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 7: it's so funny. So the law gave the laws passed 389 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 7: on November nineteenth, it gave them thirty days to produce 390 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 7: all and I quote all of the files come December nineteenth. 391 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 7: They released some unspecified smaller number early January and they say, 392 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 7: we're going to get them all out in the next 393 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 7: couple of weeks. 394 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 6: Hang on everybody, even though they're late. 395 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 7: Come early January, they make an announcement I think it 396 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 7: was January sixth or tenth or something, that we've now 397 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 7: produced one percent. 398 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 6: They said this of the Epstein files. Okay, so you 399 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 6: did the math. 400 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 7: I did the mac and I said, well, if one 401 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 7: percent took them two months to do, I was like 402 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 7: times fifty is you know whatever? And then like three 403 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 7: weeks later they're like, here's everything. So somehow they did 404 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 7: it took them like I don't know, I forget the 405 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 7: exact number, but eight weeks to do one percent and 406 00:20:58,320 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 7: then two weeks to do the other. 407 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna take. 408 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 7: Credit for embarrassing them by doing the math and lighting 409 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 7: a fire on them to expedite it and get it now, 410 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 7: because there's still stuff we don't know, right, Can Rocanna 411 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 7: do anything? 412 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 2: Can who can force the release or fast track all 413 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: of this? 414 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 6: It's a great question. 415 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 7: So let me let me specify the two things that 416 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 7: I think are missing right now that we don't have 417 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 7: one they have. Dj has said we have withheld what 418 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 7: we call deliberative process privilege documents, which is ordinarily a 419 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 7: privilege that does apply. If you said, Ellie Honig, I 420 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 7: want your files from when you were prosecuting Mattie the 421 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 7: Horse Ianello, I did mob cases, you know, the Genevie's 422 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 7: family boss back in the two thousand, in the twenty tens, 423 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 7: and I want your internal memo where you wrote a 424 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 7: memo to your chief explaining the strengths and weaknesses of 425 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 7: the case that would never come out. That's deliberative process privilege. 426 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 7: That's us kicking it around internally, strategy whatever. But but 427 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 7: the law that Rocanna sponsored, I think it's sub section 428 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 7: seven says doj us produce all internal communications, all strategic 429 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 7: So they anticipated that and said sorry, that doesn't apply here. 430 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 6: That's number one. 431 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 7: Okay, So they have not DOJ has not turned over 432 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 7: those documents, and I've heard Rocana and Massey and others 433 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 7: say we want those. 434 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 6: What can they do? Can we can? 435 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 7: I'll get you right, okay, So I'll get your question 436 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 7: in one second. The other thing is the law is specific. 437 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 7: DOJ may not withhold names of people because it because 438 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 7: their names may cause embarrassment or political damage. They've obviously 439 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 7: done that, right, We've seen all sorts of damaging emails 440 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 7: where the senders black. 441 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 6: Who is that? 442 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 7: Okay? What can they do? That is a complicated question. 443 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 7: They can certainly apply political pressure. I mean, look, DOJ 444 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 7: has shown that they are subject to certain like when 445 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 7: there was an uproar because they wrongly outed some of 446 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 7: the victims. You know, blanche backtrack, We're going to fix it. 447 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 7: Or mistakes were made. But I think DOJ's dug in 448 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 7: on these two points. And so what Rocana and others 449 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 7: can do is they can demand answers. They can interrogate 450 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 7: Pampondi whence she comes in next week. They can hold hearings. 451 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 7: They can apply political pressure, maybe they can and contempt. 452 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 7: Can they sue I'm not sure. I mean, they can 453 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 7: certainly try to sue, but I'm not sure that just 454 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 7: being a member of Congress gives you what we call 455 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 7: standing to bring a suit. So I think they're going 456 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 7: to continue pushing. I mean, look, you've seen there's emails 457 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 7: where someone's like obviously emailing Jeffrey Epstein directly saying, hey, 458 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 7: that underage girl was great. 459 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 6: It's like who is this person? And then it was criminal? 460 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, okay. 461 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: Ellie, talk to me about nationalizing elections. I just talked 462 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: about it. It's constitutionally protected, of course, But is there 463 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: any mechanism for Trump to do what he's talking about, 464 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: like have Republicans quote take over the elections? 465 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 7: I don't even know. Okay, there's two parts of this one. 466 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 7: It is wildly, flagrantly over the top unconstitutional. Article one, 467 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 7: section four says the states control the time, place, manner 468 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 7: of the election. Like, you know, there are plenty of 469 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 7: things that in the Constitution, you and I and others 470 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 7: could have long discussions about. Well, there's due process. That's 471 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 7: I don't know what is that does that require that 472 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 7: right right, right, right or whatever? But like sometimes rarely right, 473 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 7: Like it's very refreshing when the constitution straightforward, because a 474 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 7: lot of times it's not. But sometimes it's like you 475 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 7: cannot do this, and this is one of those. So 476 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 7: that's number one. But even if I don't know Trump want, 477 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 7: this is one of those things, like I don't even 478 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 7: know how one would do this practically, Like what would 479 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 7: he do? Let's take Minnesota. Would he send in there 480 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 7: is no Federal Department of Elections? 481 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 6: People say, hey, the. 482 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: FC, that's hate that he created a department before, just 483 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: just just saying right, right. 484 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 6: Right, meaning doge? 485 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I mean, but let's even say he created 486 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 7: a Federal Department of Elections, unappointed, you know, pick your 487 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 7: election denier to head it. Yeah, I don't know what 488 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 7: that person then does then goes in with with the 489 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 7: with the goon squad and tells Hennepin County, we're in 490 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 7: charge here, right, like, and get all the old you know, 491 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 7: the little old ladies who volunteered to take take your ballots, 492 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 7: and like, I don't even know how they would practically 493 00:24:58,280 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 7: execute that. 494 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: So they've sued for all the for the voter roles 495 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: in like a dozen states. 496 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 6: Oh okay, right, And they did a search warrant of 497 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 6: course one of the. 498 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I mean there are some back doors. 499 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: It feels like there's some back doors into this to 500 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: not do it as robustly as and and like and 501 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: like bluntly as Trump is talking about, right right, but 502 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: like some back doors to impact elections. 503 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 6: And that's what he's doing. 504 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 7: And I think the lawsuits, yes, and certainly the search 505 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 7: warrant in Fulton County, which to me raises major flags. 506 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 7: So Fulton County has now sued as of just recently 507 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 7: to try to try to get their stuff back. But 508 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,479 Speaker 7: I think that's more like what he's going to do 509 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 7: is send signals and maybe try to deter and intimidate, 510 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,199 Speaker 7: and uh, you know that is going to just you know, 511 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 7: God bless Fulton County. Good for them for fighting back, 512 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 7: and they're gonna they're going to file lawsuit to challenge this. 513 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,959 Speaker 7: But I think, yes, I think that's what he's going 514 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 7: to try to do. And and look, he'll never accept 515 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 7: a defeat. 516 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 6: I mean, you know. 517 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 7: The thing that that that is so mind boggling to 518 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,719 Speaker 7: me is like it's almost a better story for Trump, 519 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 7: like if he wants to be the hero in his 520 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 7: own comic book, which he does, which we all do 521 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 7: to be like, I won this shocking upset and then 522 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 7: I got knocked back and I lost. But you know what, 523 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 7: I came back and I won again and I made history. 524 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 2: Like that to me is a better story. 525 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 7: No, right, Like that's the real story, that's the truth, 526 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 7: and it's a better story to it. Yeah, he can't, 527 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 7: he can't have that chapter two where you get set back. 528 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 7: But it's Yeah, Look, they've been looking for for fraud 529 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,239 Speaker 7: for five plus years now, they've never found it. Now, 530 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 7: I don't think, I honestly think that even the Jim 531 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 7: Jordans and them don't believe that there was truly provable. 532 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 7: And look what they're trying to do here is find 533 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 7: some irregularity in Fulton County. They'll find two ballots that 534 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 7: were tampered with, yeah, one, and they'll say, there you go, 535 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 7: approves everything. There's an analogy to this that you may 536 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 7: not remember. Remember John Durham, the guy with the goatee 537 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 7: and after Muller, right, he was Connecticut guy. They were like, 538 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 7: he's gonna prove that Muller was a big hoax. This 539 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 7: guy found nothing. He was there for four years. He 540 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 7: found one lawyer, FBI lawyer who had changed one word 541 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 7: of one email. And the guy was rightly charged and 542 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 7: he played guilty and got probation. And everyone's like, there 543 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 7: it is. The thing was a hoax. 544 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 6: It's it's a drop in the bucket. 545 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, one last one. The Clintons. 546 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: They're going to testify it before Congress on the Epstein files. 547 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: This is after they sent a letter to the committee 548 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: saying they would not. Yeah, so what changed for them 549 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: from Mali? 550 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 6: They have? 551 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 7: They again I wrote on this, and I've talked about 552 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 7: this on air. Yeah, Clinton's plural hubris walked them right 553 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 7: into this ridiculous strategic trap of their own making. And 554 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 7: they were left with two choices, which was testify or 555 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 7: beheld in contempt and probably prosecuted. Not they wouldn't be convicted. 556 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 7: But again I wrote about this for the magazine. Okay, 557 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 7: they get a subpoena in August of twenty twenty five, 558 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 7: the Clintons from the Epstein Committee in the House. And 559 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 7: this is separate from this law that was issued unanimously 560 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 7: all twenty five Republicans, all nineteen Democrats issue the subpoena. 561 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 7: They then they could have gone to court and challenged it. 562 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 7: They would have had every right to do that. They 563 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 7: don't do that. They write this series of letters culminating 564 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 7: in the one you reference, which is so ridiculous. 565 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 6: It's like the time has come. You know, it was 566 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 6: right after renee Good was sanctimonium. 567 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 7: It has nothing to do It's like renee Good was 568 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 7: killed and therefore we're not testifying. 569 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 6: It's what is that to do with worst? 570 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, listen, I don't say that about their politics 571 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: because I you know, you could argue I actually liked 572 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: some of their politics and policy. 573 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 2: They're just the worst. The way they operate in the 574 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 2: world is the worst. 575 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 7: Yes, and let me let me well, let me I'll 576 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 7: tell you a funny story at the end of this, 577 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 7: just to show you where I stand on the Clintons. 578 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 7: So anyway, they let the do date come for their testimony. 579 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 7: They know show they feel like a really spirited letter. 580 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 7: And by the way, it's not ninety four anymore, like 581 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 7: people aren't like moved to tears by your words anymore. 582 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 6: You're strongly worded letter, yeah exactly. 583 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 7: And the committee then says we're going to vote you 584 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 7: a contempt. But here's what they didn't see coming nine. 585 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 7: All the Republicans voted for contempt. Nine of the nineteen 586 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 7: Democrats voted for contempt. 587 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 6: For Billy, three for Hills. That the Clintons are untouchable 588 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 6: exactly like the people. Don't people know who they are. 589 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 7: No one under the age of thirty five has any 590 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 7: emotional connection to them anymore. So yeah, then Bill Clinton 591 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 7: see and Hillary Clinton see like, oh crap like And 592 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 7: by the way, they would have gotten prosecuted by Pam 593 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 7: Bondi if it went to the full House. And you 594 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 7: know why, because Steve Bannon and Peter Navarro did the 595 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 7: same thing. They didn't have as fancy a lawyer, they 596 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 7: didn't write as good a letter, but they got subpoenas 597 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 7: from the jan six Committee. 598 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 6: They know, showed they. 599 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 7: Got prosecuted, convicted, and went to prison. Right, a lot 600 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 7: of liberals hooray, horay, cheer. Good do you how do 601 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 7: you have a different outcome with the Clintons. So I'll 602 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 7: tell you real quick, my funny Clinton story. So, look, 603 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 7: I I worked for when I was in college in 604 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 7: ninety five and ninety six. I was an intern in 605 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 7: ninety five, and then I got a real job with 606 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 7: them for the DNC, the Democratic National committe and then 607 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 7: the convention in ninety six. I went to Chicago for 608 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 7: the convention and I worshiped the guy. You know what 609 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 7: I mean, this is pre Monica, and I love Monica. 610 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 7: I think you know her, right, I mean, so we're now. 611 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,959 Speaker 7: I think she is such a. 612 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 6: Awesome person, incredible. 613 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 7: But so anyway, so we were the B team over 614 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 7: at the DNC, right, okay, the White House interns were 615 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 7: the eighteen but okay, once a month we would get 616 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 7: a thing like, oh, the Prime Minister of Ireland is arriving. 617 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 7: They need people to wave flags. Do you want to 618 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 7: go over? So we would get to go to the 619 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 7: White House. 620 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:28,719 Speaker 6: It was awesome. 621 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 7: So at the end of ninety oh gosh, was it 622 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 7: August of ninety five or six? One of those ninety 623 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 7: five I think, we get a thing saying they're going 624 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 7: to have a surprise forty ninth birthday party for Bill 625 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 7: Clinton on the south lawn of the White House. 626 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 6: I'm like, holy crap, this is amazing. 627 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 7: So I go I buy one of those You'll remember these, 628 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 7: I see cardboard cameras, remember these like this, actual cameras, 629 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 7: Like we didn't have phones, of course, and Bill Clinton 630 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 7: is it's a Western theme because the Clinton's are about 631 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 7: to go on a trip to Wyoming or something to 632 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 7: Jackson Hole, and so Bill Clinton's wearing this very distinctive 633 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 7: pink button down shirt with a big belt and jeans 634 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 7: and boots. 635 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 6: And Hillaries wear dressed like a cowboy and all. 636 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 7: This so and Jimmy Buffett was the musical act I 637 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 7: should say, who I chatted with after and couldn't have 638 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 7: been nicer, like, never a nicer human being than Jimmy Buffett. 639 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 6: And I'm not like a musical fan of his. 640 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 7: But I remember he said something to me like along 641 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 7: the lines of like, boy, DC's so funny, like this 642 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 7: is the only place I could be, and like no 643 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 7: one really care about me, like everyone's interested or over 644 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 7: So it was anyway, So Bill Clinton's working the rope line. 645 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 7: He shakes my hand, but I have a photo this 646 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 7: which i'll send you or I'll show you, And he's 647 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 7: like he's shaking my hand, but he's like so far 648 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 7: away from me, so his body language is so disinterested. 649 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 7: He's clearly looking beyond me, and I'm like. 650 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 2: At a woman behind you. 651 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 6: Well get this. 652 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 7: So it turns out I don't know how many feet away, 653 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 7: but years later it came out. The first time he 654 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 7: ever met Monica Lewinsky, she must have been fifteen feet 655 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 7: away from me, exact same shirt. He's holding her hand 656 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 7: and he is right up on her. 657 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 6: Like the body language like me and him is like 658 00:31:59,000 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 6: couldn't care less. 659 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 7: He's like, hey, hey, so I was there when they 660 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,719 Speaker 7: first met. I was feet away from them when they 661 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 7: first Wow, yep, my Forrest Gump moment. 662 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 2: What a great story. Man. 663 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: You're gonna send you the photos later, Absolutely you should. Okay, 664 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: we always in the pod with an exit poll. It's 665 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: a series of three questions of varying degrees of seriousness. 666 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 6: Okay. 667 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: The first is what's your favorite movie about politics? 668 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 7: Ooh, about politics? Hau Let me think about politics. I mean, 669 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 7: I love the one where the guy is the body 670 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 7: double is Kevin Klein for the president? 671 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 6: Dave. There you go. 672 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 2: That's a great movie. 673 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 6: That is a great. 674 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 7: Premise, right, isn't it? And they nail it and it's great. 675 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 2: It's a silly premise, but it's goofy. 676 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: They have great actors who really commit to it. So 677 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: like Kevin Klein is like a theater actor. Okay, yes, 678 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: commits to this. Charles Broden a comedian commits to this, right. 679 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 2: I mean Sigourney Weaver, like. 680 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: Is committed a wiry, silly premise, and because they take 681 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: it so seriously, you're like, no. 682 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 2: This could happen. 683 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 7: I mean there's a great scene where, like I forget 684 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 7: the exact but either Kevin Klein, who's the replacement president, 685 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 7: is either in the shower or he's in bed with 686 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 7: her or something, and she's like, WHOA. 687 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: Yes, it's fantastic, it's absurd, it's great, But I still 688 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: love that movie. Okay, who's someone you admire in public 689 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: life on either side or both sides of the aisle. 690 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 7: This is a strange, obscure person. But I'll give you two. 691 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 7: Leon Panetta. Leon Panetta was has done every job in 692 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 7: government right. He was a White House advisor, he was 693 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 7: he was the head of the CIA, he was in Congress. 694 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 7: The guy is such a straight shooter. He understands how 695 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 7: stuff works. He takes it seriously, but he's funny, and 696 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 7: he has served. He has served in every position of importance, 697 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 7: and he's respected on all sides. We had a mutual friend, like, 698 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 7: I mean, David Gergen, right was a similar type of 699 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 7: guy who passed away a few months ago. I respect 700 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 7: Leon Panetta, I respect people like that. I don't know 701 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 7: where that type of person has gone. I mean another 702 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 7: person a lot who's a contemporary in a friend of ours, 703 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 7: is Adam Kinsinger. I mean, I love Adam. I want 704 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 7: Adam to run for president in twenty eight, but I 705 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 7: don't know. I mean, I would wish he would, but 706 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 7: I don't know which party apparatus is going to accommodat. 707 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: Now. Now that's a fair point, Okay, final question, how 708 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: do we save our democracy? 709 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 6: Okay? 710 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 7: One of the main points I make in my book 711 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 7: is that the rules, the laws, the regulations are really important, 712 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 7: but the people are more important. And any lawyer, any 713 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 7: politician can probably take almost any rule and bend it 714 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,919 Speaker 7: to almost any purposes they want. And I think we're 715 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 7: realizing now that we have placed more reliance than we 716 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 7: may have previously recognized in just the decency and the 717 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 7: good faith of the people who are involved, right, whether 718 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 7: it's an AUSA, a regular old mind level AUSA like 719 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 7: I was on up through the AG and the President, 720 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 7: and so much of what we do just comes from 721 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 7: our norms. 722 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 6: Like I'll give you a quick example from my book. 723 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 7: I was looking at what How have presidents reacted when 724 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 7: sp counsel have been a point over the years, right, 725 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 7: and Trump obviously has been the far extreme of just kneecapping. 726 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 6: George W. 727 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 7: Bush got investigated, you'll remember this for over what became 728 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 7: the Scooter Libby investigation, over the leaking of Valerie playing right. 729 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 7: Pat Fitzgerald was the prosecutor in charge of it. The 730 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 7: only thing George W. Bush ever said publicly about Pat 731 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 7: Fitzgerald is he's a very thorough guy. We're going to 732 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 7: let him do his job and we're going to respect 733 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 7: the outcome. And that's it. And it's like he did 734 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 7: to do that right, exactly exactly. So, so much of 735 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 7: it comes down to just the people. And you know, 736 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 7: you can point to laws, and laws are important, they matter, 737 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 7: but the people and the good faith of our actors 738 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:39,919 Speaker 7: matter more than anything else. 739 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: Well, said Ellie Honik. Such a pleasure, Thanks for coming on. 740 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 6: Thank you. I see this is great. I appreciate it. 741 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: All right, I'll see around the bureau all right in 742 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: the green room. 743 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 2: That does it for talking politics. We'll see you next week. 744 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as 745 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: part of the Reason Choice Network. 746 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 2: IF you want more, check out the Other Reason. 747 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: Choice Podcasts, Spolitics with Jamel Hill, and Native Land Pod. 748 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 1: For Off the Cup, I am your host se Cup. 749 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: Editing and sound design by Derek Clements. Our executive producers 750 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: are me Se Cup, Lauren Hanson, and Lindsay Hoffman. 751 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 2: Rate and review wherever you get 752 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: Your podcasts, follow or subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday.