1
00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,320
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Penel podcast. I'm Paul swing you,

2
00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,680
Speaker 1: along with my co host Lisa Brahma wits. Each day

3
00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,240
Speaker 1: we bring you the most noteworthy and useful interviews for

4
00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,520
Speaker 1: you and your money, Whether at the grocery store or

5
00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,480
Speaker 1: the trading floor. Find a Bloomberg Penl podcast on Apple

6
00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,959
Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts, as well as

7
00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,400
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com. Well, folks here at the Bloomberg

8
00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,800
Speaker 1: offices in New York, I've spent the morning watching Alison

9
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,280
Speaker 1: Williams run, literally run back and forth between her desk,

10
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,520
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Television Studio and now the Bloomberg Radio Studio. Why

11
00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:32,920
Speaker 1: you may ask, It's because it seems like every major

12
00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,840
Speaker 1: bank reported earnings this morning, so she is in great demand.

13
00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,240
Speaker 1: Alison Williams covers all things financials for Bloomberg Intelligence, joining

14
00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,120
Speaker 1: us here on our Bloomberg and Act the Broker studio.

15
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:48,760
Speaker 1: So Goldman, Sachs, JP, Morgan City, Wells, Fargo. You know,

16
00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,720
Speaker 1: you've had a couple of hours kind of cut through

17
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,479
Speaker 1: all the details. As you step back, how do you

18
00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,800
Speaker 1: view kind of the current environment for the big banks

19
00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,440
Speaker 1: that you've been covering for so many years. So I

20
00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,040
Speaker 1: think the right a new environment remains a big question,

21
00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,200
Speaker 1: right and that relates to trade and tariffs, bregsit all

22
00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,280
Speaker 1: the geopolitical uncertainty. Uh. We sort of knew we wouldn't

23
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,039
Speaker 1: get an answer on that today, but I think where

24
00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,600
Speaker 1: we did get an answer is who has some levers

25
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,320
Speaker 1: to pull? And I think that's um one place where

26
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:21,160
Speaker 1: JP Morgan is executing return on tangible equity pretty impressive.

27
00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,040
Speaker 1: That's the best among the banks. And they showed uh,

28
00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 1: you know, gaining share and trading doing well on loan growth,

29
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,480
Speaker 1: so that helps to offset some of the margin pressure

30
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,400
Speaker 1: and then cost um flexibility the guidance coming down there.

31
00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,800
Speaker 1: So those were all positive. If we look across the

32
00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,480
Speaker 1: other companies, you know, WELLS Fargo, I think it's sort

33
00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,480
Speaker 1: of the the earnings are less important than the incoming CEO.

34
00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,840
Speaker 1: But they took a big litigation charge clearing the decks

35
00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,640
Speaker 1: for Charlie Sharfs, So that's a positive city group. I think,

36
00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,440
Speaker 1: you know, that's the questions are rising regard to the

37
00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,520
Speaker 1: returns for next year. It looks like they're going to

38
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,240
Speaker 1: be able to make their target this year, but next

39
00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,360
Speaker 1: year as a question, um, you know, twelve percent versus

40
00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,200
Speaker 1: the eighteen percent that that JP Morgan did this quarter.

41
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,560
Speaker 1: City is executing around a twelve percent, hoping to make

42
00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,480
Speaker 1: that target for this year. UM. So I think costs

43
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,880
Speaker 1: remain the question for them. And then on Goldman Sachs,

44
00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:21,040
Speaker 1: you know, fees coming in weaker, that equity income coming

45
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,000
Speaker 1: in a little bit weaker, just due to what's happening

46
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,080
Speaker 1: on the market, the ip A pause, etcetera, UM, and

47
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,240
Speaker 1: cost a little bit higher for them. I wanted to

48
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,840
Speaker 1: sort of go and drill into the consumer because a

49
00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,560
Speaker 1: lot of the banks Weapen Moregan included are expanding in

50
00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,000
Speaker 1: their consumer lending businesses and people have been looking for

51
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,400
Speaker 1: signs of a possible slowdown amid the consumer strength that

52
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,079
Speaker 1: we continue to see. What was the reading there, So

53
00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,960
Speaker 1: I don't think that we're seeing a slowdown so far. Uh.

54
00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,760
Speaker 1: And in fact, you know City Group talking about the

55
00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,760
Speaker 1: fact that you know, even though UM, you know they're

56
00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: keep being a tight rate no cost, but they also think, UM,

57
00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,360
Speaker 1: they can have revenue growth and part of that is

58
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,520
Speaker 1: the consumer. Keep in mind, they have a much bigger

59
00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:12,040
Speaker 1: credit card business UM than many of the other competitors. UM.

60
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,560
Speaker 1: JP Morgan also showing some health and we did see

61
00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,519
Speaker 1: in the government data sort of a pick up in

62
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 1: consumer loans, especially in auto lending. Um, we're gonna hear

63
00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,040
Speaker 1: I think more about that broadly from the banks as

64
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,639
Speaker 1: they come in this week. So Elson, you mentioned JP

65
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,680
Speaker 1: Morgan had to I guess you said return on tangible

66
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 1: equity about eight. That seems like if I remember back

67
00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 1: almost pre financial crisis, like and I was, I know,

68
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,640
Speaker 1: the bear case coming through the Financial crisis was a

69
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,200
Speaker 1: whole new set of regulations. They're never going to generate

70
00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,600
Speaker 1: those kind of returns. Give us a sense of kind

71
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,200
Speaker 1: of the profitability and the returns we're seeing from some

72
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,320
Speaker 1: of the big banks you cover. Yeah, and and so

73
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,119
Speaker 1: to your point, Um, you know they're they're executing sort

74
00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,120
Speaker 1: of top of their game, and I think what's impressive

75
00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,280
Speaker 1: is that they're doing that in an environment where they

76
00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,480
Speaker 1: are holding more more capital um and in fact on

77
00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,080
Speaker 1: a sort of the interesting side notes, what's been going

78
00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,320
Speaker 1: on in the repo market that's coming up on the

79
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,400
Speaker 1: calls and JP Morgan talking about the fact that because

80
00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:11,040
Speaker 1: of restrictions, they weren't perhaps as active um and in

81
00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,280
Speaker 1: that marketplace as they might have been in the past,

82
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,280
Speaker 1: so sort of you know, an eye towards regulation there um,

83
00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,040
Speaker 1: but in general if you look at return on assets,

84
00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,800
Speaker 1: so that adjusts for some of the some of the

85
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,960
Speaker 1: leverage and some of the changes. We are executing at

86
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,960
Speaker 1: a very high level, and that's what we'd expect to

87
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,320
Speaker 1: be because we are late cycle, and so as much

88
00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,040
Speaker 1: as we talk about the revenue concerns, keep in mind

89
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,719
Speaker 1: that credit very solid. We could just continue to see

90
00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,040
Speaker 1: very strong results across the backs. Alison Williams, thank you

91
00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,800
Speaker 1: so much for being with us. Alison Williams, who is

92
00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,480
Speaker 1: the hardest working woman in Bloomberg this morning. Alison Williams,

93
00:04:49,760 --> 00:05:08,280
Speaker 1: intelligence analyst covering all things bank. It is no secret

94
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,000
Speaker 1: people are searching for income. This has been a theme

95
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,640
Speaker 1: for the oh, I don't know, past decade uh and

96
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,040
Speaker 1: increasingly they have been turning two convertible bonds. These are

97
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,960
Speaker 1: bonds that have an option to convert into securities into

98
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,679
Speaker 1: stocks given certain figures. Joining us now. Dave King, Senior

99
00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,120
Speaker 1: portfolio manager with Columbia Thread Needle Investments based in Boston. Dave,

100
00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,000
Speaker 1: you focus on convertible debt and your funds. I was

101
00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 1: looking at one of them. It's up more than fient

102
00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,680
Speaker 1: year to date doing really well. What's been sort of

103
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:43,159
Speaker 1: the winning aspects of convertible bonds this year In the

104
00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,360
Speaker 1: current year, it's been the recovery and equities UM. Convertibles

105
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:51,840
Speaker 1: are typically issued by companies with growth opportunities. So when

106
00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,680
Speaker 1: the market bounced back, the equity market, I mean from

107
00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,400
Speaker 1: a bad queue for leadership has been smaller, grow your

108
00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:05,240
Speaker 1: stocks and our world is that world. Those are the

109
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,840
Speaker 1: underpinnings of the bonds and preferreds that we buy. So

110
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,279
Speaker 1: it's been good equity performance in areas like software or

111
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,640
Speaker 1: rebound and semiconductors, and then just isolated good performers in

112
00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 1: other areas that have led to charge for us and

113
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,640
Speaker 1: for the market. So Dave, when bankers go in and

114
00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,560
Speaker 1: they're pitching a convert to a corporate issuer, you know

115
00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,000
Speaker 1: sometimes I guess you know that maybe the argument could be,

116
00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,560
Speaker 1: we'll just sell equity here. What's the what's the real

117
00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,880
Speaker 1: advantage to an issuer? Uh By issuing a convertible bond,

118
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,839
Speaker 1: well compared to issuing equity directly, the process is much

119
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,839
Speaker 1: quicker to do a convertible. They can be issued under

120
00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,920
Speaker 1: Rule one A and just sold to qualified institutions. So

121
00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,039
Speaker 1: companies can get transactions done in the hundreds of millions

122
00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:58,120
Speaker 1: of dollars in one day's time or overnight without the

123
00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,640
Speaker 1: lengthy registration process. Says In terms of the contrast to

124
00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,840
Speaker 1: issuing a bond, you often find that the bond market

125
00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,720
Speaker 1: is a backward looking market that favors the old economy.

126
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:16,040
Speaker 1: So companies in areas like biotechnology or sas are challenged

127
00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 1: when it comes to dealing with the high yield market

128
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,680
Speaker 1: dynamics and find the convertible market much more friendly. I'm

129
00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,720
Speaker 1: looking right now at the market value of the Bloomberg

130
00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,320
Speaker 1: Parclay's US Convertibles Index, and it's about two hundred and

131
00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,680
Speaker 1: nineteen billion dollars of securities. And the reason why I

132
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,720
Speaker 1: ask is because there was a problem in the past

133
00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,840
Speaker 1: bunch of years where convertible bonds were more popular with

134
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,360
Speaker 1: investors than they were by issuers to sell them. And

135
00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,360
Speaker 1: I'm wondering how that dynamic has evolved today. Yeah, that's

136
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,120
Speaker 1: a great observation. It remains a problem as far as

137
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,800
Speaker 1: I'm concerned. To put it in perspective, twenty years ago,

138
00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,720
Speaker 1: the high yield market and the convertible market were similar

139
00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,240
Speaker 1: in size. In two thousand, sixteen, new issuance in the

140
00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 1: high yield market exceeded the total size of a convertible market.

141
00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,720
Speaker 1: So we've been a dwarf here because of the government

142
00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:13,000
Speaker 1: focusing on very low yields, um quantitative easing and so forth.

143
00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:18,200
Speaker 1: But can you hash that out? What exactly is the

144
00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:23,400
Speaker 1: reticence on the part of companies to sell these bonds. Well, um,

145
00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,920
Speaker 1: they can get cheaper money elsewhere as yields have been

146
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,280
Speaker 1: forced down dramatically. I mean, what we discuss as being

147
00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,400
Speaker 1: the quote unquote high yield market is a five handle

148
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,960
Speaker 1: market that used to be a seven or eight handle market.

149
00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,200
Speaker 1: So even in the context of a strong stock market,

150
00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,600
Speaker 1: it's like, why give away a call option on your

151
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,240
Speaker 1: equity when you can finance so cheaply. So that's been

152
00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,440
Speaker 1: the reticence. But the good news, as I said, is

153
00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,800
Speaker 1: that last year was a record year for issuance, and

154
00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,199
Speaker 1: this year actually through nine months was running ahead of

155
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,120
Speaker 1: last year. So there is a recovery in convertible issuance,

156
00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,720
Speaker 1: but nowhere near where I think it will be if

157
00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,079
Speaker 1: rates normalize at levels they were in the past. So Dave,

158
00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,680
Speaker 1: I remember back in a financial crisis, some industries and

159
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,960
Speaker 1: companies that were really struggling, like airlines and autos, they

160
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,760
Speaker 1: went to the convert market. Um, is that kind of

161
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 1: you know, saving the company type of financing? Is that?

162
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,160
Speaker 1: Do we still see that in the market today. Well,

163
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,120
Speaker 1: it hasn't been as necessary after ten years of economic recovery,

164
00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,920
Speaker 1: but it's absolutely one of the functions of our market.

165
00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,240
Speaker 1: The main uses of the convertible market are to finance

166
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,000
Speaker 1: disruptive growth companies, to finance M and A, and to

167
00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,400
Speaker 1: finance survival of the enterprise. So when I think back

168
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,319
Speaker 1: to joining Columbia about ten years ago, as you point out,

169
00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,040
Speaker 1: there were a lot of airline issues, home building issues.

170
00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,640
Speaker 1: Ford Motor was a big issuer. They wisely did converts

171
00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,880
Speaker 1: instead of having to file bankruptcy. So, yes, the economy cyclical.

172
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 1: When the cycle heads down, will see a lot of

173
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,800
Speaker 1: issue ins in areas where the economy is struggling. Just

174
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,680
Speaker 1: a quick Dave, would you buy we were convertible bonds

175
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,960
Speaker 1: if they were to be sold, Um, well, they have

176
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,320
Speaker 1: to have a stock first of all. We can't convert

177
00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:16,240
Speaker 1: into nothing but the community adjusted stock. Conceptually, it would

178
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,080
Speaker 1: be a very typical issuer in our market if it

179
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,920
Speaker 1: was a public company and if they had a balance

180
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,839
Speaker 1: sheet problem. Um, but could make the case, and this

181
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,280
Speaker 1: is hypothetical, they could make the case that they have

182
00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,520
Speaker 1: a working business model. They would be welcome with open

183
00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,640
Speaker 1: arms in our market, while skepticism would prevail in the

184
00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,040
Speaker 1: high yield market in other places. Dave King, Senior portfolio

185
00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,240
Speaker 1: manager for Columbia Thread Needle Investments, located in Boston, Thanks

186
00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Well, we have a risk

187
00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,600
Speaker 1: on day today, that's for sure. The equity indices up

188
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,920
Speaker 1: about one percent. And to be honest with you, I'm

189
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,600
Speaker 1: not really sure why. Maybe a little bit of lift

190
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:11,640
Speaker 1: from Brexit, maybe some tech and healthy maybe a little

191
00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,480
Speaker 1: tech little healthcare push pushing the market up. A mixed

192
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:16,480
Speaker 1: bag coming out of the big Wall Street banks. But

193
00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,640
Speaker 1: hopefully our next guest can help us provide some color here.

194
00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,840
Speaker 1: Frank Rabinski, chief macro strategist for Eggon USA Asset Management

195
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,160
Speaker 1: based in Charmed City that be, Baltimore, Maryland. But he

196
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,240
Speaker 1: joins us here in our Bloomberg Interactor Broker studio. So, Frank,

197
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,480
Speaker 1: just just today we had a nice move up here. Um,

198
00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,240
Speaker 1: what do you attributed to having me? Yes, I think

199
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,400
Speaker 1: what you're seeing in part there's a macro story of

200
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,840
Speaker 1: this bear market in geopolitics which is really bleeding into

201
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,120
Speaker 1: the economics and and that's affecting markets. Right. So as

202
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,800
Speaker 1: as you get these oscillations of of of the geopolitical side, um,

203
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:53,920
Speaker 1: you know that you can see a quick reaction or

204
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 1: you know, from from a day to day perspective on

205
00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:00,400
Speaker 1: the risk markets. So what do you like? So we

206
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,559
Speaker 1: are at at this point, you know, lat in the cycle. Uh,

207
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,160
Speaker 1: we have been slowly going up in quality. And I'm

208
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,280
Speaker 1: talking about from a from a fixed income perspective. We think,

209
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:10,840
Speaker 1: you know, going too far up in quality, like all

210
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,600
Speaker 1: the way to treasuries, you know, doesn't make sense. At

211
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,839
Speaker 1: this point. You've already had say the tenure being you know,

212
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,959
Speaker 1: the yield cut in half UM and we think it's

213
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,520
Speaker 1: more of a coupon clip from here at best UM.

214
00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:21,319
Speaker 1: So we we'd be looking kind of the mid tier

215
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,040
Speaker 1: corporate credit because we also think, you know, looking at

216
00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,400
Speaker 1: the triple cs uh, you know, kind of the really

217
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,800
Speaker 1: low end, you're you're not going to have the the

218
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,360
Speaker 1: the oversized growth that those companies need to really grow

219
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,480
Speaker 1: grow into their balance sheets. So I do want to

220
00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,839
Speaker 1: bring you a headline just crossing the Bloomberg that we

221
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,440
Speaker 1: work at the board of WE Companies is reported to

222
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,600
Speaker 1: be working with Perelo Weinberg Partners. That would suspect suggest

223
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,439
Speaker 1: at some sort of restructuring. I'm wondering, we work bonds

224
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,960
Speaker 1: falling to an all time low today, how much of

225
00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,800
Speaker 1: a specific story do you think we work is and

226
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,000
Speaker 1: how much do you think it represents some broader potholes

227
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,200
Speaker 1: that we're going to see down the line with other

228
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,400
Speaker 1: other companies in the up market right now. I always

229
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,439
Speaker 1: think it's interesting how these types of stories they don't

230
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,560
Speaker 1: tend to happen at the start of a cycle, right,

231
00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,640
Speaker 1: you get these late cycle when when capital is looking

232
00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,880
Speaker 1: for return, looking for yields, um, and you get these

233
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:18,880
Speaker 1: misallocation of capital. You know, if they think of the

234
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,600
Speaker 1: nineties tech, right, I mean, and I think this is

235
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,319
Speaker 1: on a macro level, this is similar to to that

236
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,320
Speaker 1: type of thesis. Um. So again, I this is where,

237
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,760
Speaker 1: especially when you get into these low liquid uh type

238
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,320
Speaker 1: you know, you know, really low quality names. Um, the

239
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,480
Speaker 1: the credit analysis really becomes important because if you're just

240
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,600
Speaker 1: passive investing, it's really hard from a price discovery standpoint. Um.

241
00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,200
Speaker 1: You know, having that uh, you know you can't focus

242
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,120
Speaker 1: on the story. It's more about the cap structure and

243
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,920
Speaker 1: the balance sheet and and the realistic component of that story.

244
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,199
Speaker 1: So it sounds like JP Moore Bloomberg News is out

245
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,080
Speaker 1: with the report this morning and news report this morning

246
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,840
Speaker 1: that the JP Morgan is you might be shopping around

247
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:04,560
Speaker 1: a you know, multibillion dollar you know capital structure, bond up,

248
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,360
Speaker 1: you know, coupon payment and kind in terms we haven't

249
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,080
Speaker 1: heard about for such a long time. That screams kind

250
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,200
Speaker 1: of you know, kind of end of cycle. Just give

251
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,280
Speaker 1: us a sense in your portfolio, how is kind of

252
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,959
Speaker 1: the credit quality I guess for you know, lack of

253
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,920
Speaker 1: a better terment. Does it feel late cycle to you

254
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,560
Speaker 1: their warning signs there or or is the overall the economy,

255
00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:26,400
Speaker 1: which is still pretty strong kind of supporting most of

256
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 1: the credits. Well, so I'll start with the economy side

257
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 1: and then go into the portfolio side. So on the

258
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,720
Speaker 1: economy side, you know, definitely late side. I mean, we're

259
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,400
Speaker 1: moderating from peak growth, and you know, we see trend

260
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,440
Speaker 1: growth in the high ones and we think we're going there. Um,

261
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,160
Speaker 1: we don't see the cycle necessarily ending, you know, next year,

262
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,120
Speaker 1: So you know, we think from that perspective, you could

263
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,880
Speaker 1: have kind of trend like growth um, which is not

264
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,600
Speaker 1: bad for certain parts of credit. Uh. We conversely, but

265
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,680
Speaker 1: when we talk about the portfolio side, we have been

266
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,520
Speaker 1: on an up end quality type mode for for quite

267
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,400
Speaker 1: some time. Um. You know, if we look at the

268
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,560
Speaker 1: low end of high yield, the triple seas, you know,

269
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,200
Speaker 1: we're underweight. They're trying to go up. And if you

270
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,280
Speaker 1: look at at the sharp ratios, I mean, they're they're

271
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,680
Speaker 1: definitely being maximized and kind of the mid part of

272
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,960
Speaker 1: the credit structure because you've also been you know, assuming

273
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,080
Speaker 1: a lot of risk with the volatility you've seen on

274
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,280
Speaker 1: some of the lower end side of the of the

275
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,040
Speaker 1: credit space. So we we've definitely been on this up

276
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:21,960
Speaker 1: and quality, but as I said before, not going all

277
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:23,880
Speaker 1: the way up and quality because we don't think you know,

278
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,520
Speaker 1: the despite the trade fears, uh, you know, and kind

279
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,520
Speaker 1: of the uncertainty around that, we don't see the global

280
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:34,200
Speaker 1: cycle completely ending. Triple c credits have underperformed. A lot

281
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:35,560
Speaker 1: of people agree with you. A lot of people have

282
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:37,640
Speaker 1: been doing the same thing. If I were a contrarian,

283
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,480
Speaker 1: I would go into triple seas and say, well, for

284
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 1: not at the end, these things are going to plug

285
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,560
Speaker 1: plug along. There's a lot of capital and private debt

286
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,680
Speaker 1: and private equity kinds of structures. So I'll be fine,

287
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,440
Speaker 1: what would you say to that person, Well, I hope

288
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,560
Speaker 1: his credit analysis is quite sharp. I mean it's I

289
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:54,520
Speaker 1: think it's helpful when you look at this cycle versus

290
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,080
Speaker 1: prior cycles in the sense of, you know, in the

291
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,560
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, you know, nominal growth was is six

292
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 1: seven percent. Now you know we're we're happy with three.

293
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:09,160
Speaker 1: And you know, when you're at a slower nominal growth world, um,

294
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,760
Speaker 1: it's harder to get the aggregate low end of the

295
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 1: credit space because they need growth right to to grow

296
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,800
Speaker 1: into those balance sheets. So I think, will there be

297
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,040
Speaker 1: companies that survive and do wal and Trip will see yes.

298
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,920
Speaker 1: But again, I think buying a bucket of triple cs

299
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:24,920
Speaker 1: is going to be you know, you're going to be

300
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,320
Speaker 1: taking a more risk so that sharp race will be affected.

301
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,320
Speaker 1: As opposed to having me really experienced and sharp analysts

302
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,800
Speaker 1: who can you know, really figure out the credit specifics there,

303
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 1: you might be buying a bucket of worms. Sorry, I

304
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 1: couldn't help myself. It's Tuesday, Fransky. No, it's It's absolutely nothing.

305
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 1: It's something I just made up. So um you can.

306
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,440
Speaker 1: You can write your comments to lebron Woods at Bloomberg

307
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 1: dot net. Frank Rabinski, thank you so much for being

308
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,360
Speaker 1: with us. Frank Robinski as chief macro strategist to Egg

309
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,080
Speaker 1: on asset management over helping oversee a hundred and three

310
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,480
Speaker 1: billion dollars of assets from Baltimore. What what what did you

311
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 1: call Baltimore? Charm city? Armed city? Who do po? We

312
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,560
Speaker 1: hear so much about the e s G label, Environmental,

313
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 1: social and governance types of filters to invest more selectively

314
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,520
Speaker 1: and more wholesomely in equities, joining us now as someone

315
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,480
Speaker 1: who focuses on that all day long. And Marie Washer,

316
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,560
Speaker 1: founder and chief executive officer of Flat World Partners. Disclosure,

317
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 1: she is not a flat earther. That is not the

318
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,159
Speaker 1: title of her firm. But Marie, why don't you just

319
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,280
Speaker 1: start with telling us what it does do? Sure? So,

320
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,359
Speaker 1: Flat World Partners is an investment management firm, and we

321
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,800
Speaker 1: focused on custom solutions for impact and sustainability that deliver

322
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,159
Speaker 1: market rate returns. So talk to us about E s

323
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,719
Speaker 1: G investing in general. Just size up the market force

324
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,400
Speaker 1: the growth of E s G investing can pep sense

325
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,560
Speaker 1: of how big this may be? Sure? So if we

326
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 1: look at numbers this year, nine trillion of assets are

327
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,960
Speaker 1: already an E s G or s RI I negatively

328
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,280
Speaker 1: uh screen funds and public markets and sr I negatively screened.

329
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 1: Isn't s R Yeah exactly. There's so many acronyms. I

330
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,359
Speaker 1: think that's part of the challenges of the market. But

331
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,240
Speaker 1: it's a socially responsible investing when you screen out tobacco

332
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:29,120
Speaker 1: or oil and gas. The markets growing so significantly right

333
00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,399
Speaker 1: now over a d annually uh in terms of the

334
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 1: flood of types of funds that are launching in fun flows.

335
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,600
Speaker 1: So it give us a sense of performance. Um do

336
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,880
Speaker 1: I sacrifice performance if I integrate E s G into

337
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,639
Speaker 1: my investment process? Right? Um? No, The good news is

338
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,720
Speaker 1: you don't. In fact, more and more studies show out performance.

339
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,439
Speaker 1: When you look at E s G data providers, you

340
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 1: see that there's larger and larger gaps between UM traditional

341
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 1: indexes and those indexes that are E s G because

342
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 1: you're mitigating risks. Can you give us an example of

343
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 1: kind of a hallmark E s G compliant or s

344
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:13,159
Speaker 1: RI I negative plus absolutely x three uh that you

345
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,800
Speaker 1: know that that you focus on. Sure. I mean if

346
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 1: we look at public markets, you can use an example

347
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,200
Speaker 1: like pg N and the outages last week, So that

348
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,199
Speaker 1: has been available in E s G data providers, and

349
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: you've actually seen the risk assessments on E s G

350
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,439
Speaker 1: data increase over time, which would have given us an

351
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 1: indication that the stock would collapse. Um, and then you

352
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 1: have opportunities actually back up on that when I dig

353
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 1: in a little bit more. So please explain a little

354
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:42,960
Speaker 1: bit more what indicators would you be looking at that

355
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,800
Speaker 1: you would have been able to say. So, Bloomberg Terminal

356
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 1: actually has E s G data on it, and you

357
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 1: can see momentum scoring on whether E s or G

358
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,440
Speaker 1: factors are increasing or declining. That often shows an indication

359
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 1: that stock may collapse if the scores are declining. Okay,

360
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 1: so was declining the most when it comes to pg N,

361
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 1: So that often falls under governance or environmental factors because

362
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,679
Speaker 1: where the fire start in California are literally where they

363
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 1: have utility centers. So you mentioned the data. A lot

364
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,160
Speaker 1: of times, we've had E s G investors in here

365
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,359
Speaker 1: portfolio managers and they bemoan the lack of data or

366
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 1: the lack of consistent data on E s G. It's

367
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 1: not like going to an income statement or a balance

368
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 1: sheet where it's you know, gap kind of data and

369
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,920
Speaker 1: everybody's kind of got it. You mentioned a Bloomberg terminal.

370
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 1: We do on the terminal have tons of E s

371
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 1: G data, But just give us a sense of if

372
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,159
Speaker 1: I wanted to incorporate it E s G into my

373
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 1: investing kind of where do I get data? What's Yeah,

374
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 1: the E s G data market is incredibly tricky. There's

375
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 1: about different a D there's about a D data providers

376
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,160
Speaker 1: in the market now, and the score is really exkew significantly,

377
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 1: there's no consensus scores. And so we're really working on

378
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 1: technology to integrate platforms and incorporate unique data sets like

379
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 1: green peace, ocean and plastic contribution. This is one of

380
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,880
Speaker 1: my troubles with the E s G label. I'm gonna

381
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 1: be really honest, it's struggle with how vague it is.

382
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 1: I mean, to be socially responsible can mean fourteen million

383
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 1: different things to different people, and to have good governance,

384
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 1: I mean again there are different screens and and really

385
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 1: what does it mean to be good to the environment

386
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: is if you have carbon offset but you're pumping carbon, uh,

387
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, into the into the environment. I mean, how

388
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 1: how how confident are you with these screens? Really are

389
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 1: something significant? Yeah, So it's really about understanding how those

390
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 1: screens are put together, that that E s G data,

391
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 1: and understanding the managers that are building those products and

392
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 1: how they incorporate it. All of our clients care about

393
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 1: different things, whether it's water or education or the environment,

394
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 1: and we want to really think about what are the

395
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 1: key points that we need to highlight in an investment.

396
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: You can't do it all. You can't incorporate everything in

397
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 1: every investment. So I can see how a pension fund

398
00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,119
Speaker 1: um or maybe even a big mutual fund would care

399
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 1: about incorporate E s G. How about the hedge fund community?

400
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 1: Do they care? Are pretty cold hearted people will just

401
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: look for Well, we're starting to make them care. We

402
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: actually just sign a partnership with Titan Advisors to evaluate

403
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 1: UH sixty hedge fund managers and some of the larger

404
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 1: ones on diversity issues, social issues and whether they're incorporating

405
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,719
Speaker 1: e s G and working with them to actually launch

406
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: integrated E s G processes into their investment decision making,

407
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 1: because again we believe it will remove risks from the

408
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,919
Speaker 1: portfolio and force them to make real changes. You know,

409
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: when you came in, I asked you know how much

410
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: is private? You said, impact investing tends to be private

411
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: investments and E s G tends to be public markets.

412
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, in five years from now, do you expect

413
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: the shift in money to be different than it is

414
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 1: now in terms of where it's allocated, because the impact

415
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 1: side of things is pretty small, even though that's really

416
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 1: what's going to building you know, water sustainability in Africa

417
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 1: and things like that, versus trying to to encourage companies

418
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: to behave Well. Yeah, I actually think E s G

419
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 1: and Impact won't exist in the future as a label

420
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 1: because it will be incorporated in every investment decision that

421
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: has made. Regulations around carbon tax is being innovated, mifit

422
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 1: to change regulations for e s G. Beyond me is

423
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: an impact company. It's one of the first to truly

424
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,959
Speaker 1: go public, and so you'll see impact flood into public

425
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 1: markets where stock exchanges also now require E s G

426
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: standards before listing. I first heard about e s G

427
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 1: maybe ten years ago, mostly from European investors. Yes, did

428
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 1: it kind of start in Europe and then came over

429
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: here to the US. It actually started with the nuns

430
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: and Catholic pension planning Greeks exactly, shout out to the nuns.

431
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 1: Mr Sweetie Church exactly. Catholic school. Interesting. So, but it's

432
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: now becoming more and more embraced kind of globally. It has,

433
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: I think because people do see that the data providers

434
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: have improved the analyst work that's being on, and there's

435
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,959
Speaker 1: responsibility and transparency of data. Right. If Enron happened today,

436
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: you know, news coverage from you guys would have happened

437
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 1: in seconds, not later or Twitter feeds. All of that

438
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: data and innovation has created more transparency and responsibility. Right.

439
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: Fascinating discussion. Emrie Washer, thanks so much for joining us,

440
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: giving us some more content and color on E S

441
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 1: G Investing and Marie Washer, she's a foundered CEO Flat

442
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: World Partners, joining joining us here in our Bloomberg Interact

443
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: their broker studio, giving us some thoughts and at least

444
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 1: I was saying, you know, we probably have an E

445
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: S G fund manager or someone like that in our studios.

446
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: You know, every couple of weeks. It's becoming a bigger

447
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 1: part of the investment. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

448
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: P and L podcast. You can subscribe and listen to

449
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: interviews at Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer.

450
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 1: Paul Sweeney, I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney. I'm Lisa

451
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: Abram Woyds. I'm on Twitter at Lisa Abram Woyd's One

452
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide on

453
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio