WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - October 18th, 2024 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.840 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:12.920 This is Bloomberg business Week inside from the reporters and 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.640 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.880 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:25.840 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:30.000 Hi, everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. Well, 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:32.760 earning season got into full swing, so too has the 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:35.640 final stretch of the election. As we are a little 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:38.239 over two weeks to go until US voters head to 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:40.720 the polls. Keep in mind many of some states have 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:44.800 already casted their ballots. Early voting is underway. We have 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.280 several takes on the elections this week, from free speech 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:51.920 and fearless speech to how the men who governed America 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.880 governed their own money. Yes, we mean the US presidents 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:57.000 that coming up in our next hour. 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.200 This hour, the company that invented blue jeans more than 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.240 one hundred and fifty years ago. On today's crowded marketplace, 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.200 the Levi's CFO stops by, Plus the CEO of Gusto 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.840 has his pulse on small and medium sized businesses. He 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.960 shares what he's seeing is he builds out his rapidly 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:14.800 growing business. 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:18.319 First up, we begin with geopolitics and the US election, 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.120 from the Middle East and the Russia Ukraine War to 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.440 the US campaign trail and beyond. One name at the 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:26.120 top of our list when we want to cover. 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.679 It all is Ed Price. He's a former British trade official, 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:33.120 now non resident senior Fellow at NYU, also principal for 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.880 geopolitical Forecasting at the global intelligence and consulting firm ERGO. 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.440 He's advised members of the European and British parliaments. And 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.160 we started by talking about his summer road trip. 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:46.880 So I drove from New York to San Francisco via 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.840 the northerly route, and then I drove back via the 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:54.280 south via Dallas, New Orleans, and really just tried to 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.120 stop as much as possible and just make conversation, right, 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.840 just stop someone and say, hey, how are you, by 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:01.480 the way, what do you think about the election? What 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:02.800 do you think about the economy? 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:06.480 And they everyone greeted you with open arms, right, I mean. 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.000 Right, So this is the interesting thing. We've heard this 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.080 so many times, Jimmy Carvill. It's the economy stupid, It 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:15.400 kind of is, and it kind of isn't. And one 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.480 of the things that I noticed most was that in 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:23.560 any given generic conversation with anyone really, after they'd said, oh, 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:25.040 you know what, I really hate. 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.040 The other guy, right, the other candidate, they. 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:29.440 Would then basically come up with a list of things 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.600 that they wanted whoever it is that's president to do. 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:34.480 At home that were very similar. 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.239 And so there's you know, we always talk about polarization 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:38.120 in this country. 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:40.040 That is the case, but there's. 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:44.600 Also this sort of bipartisan feeling that somehow, some way 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.840 the economy could be better. Now that might mean that, 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:50.120 you know, Harris is in trouble because it's it's in 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.760 some ways her economy, but it's interesting to me that 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:54.960 so many Americans said exactly. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:55.119 The same thing. 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.639 Yeah, it's interesting that that's what you came away with. 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.240 It's also dark contrast to so much data out there, 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.680 data point after data point, Carol, showing that for a 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:07.760 lot of people, the economy is really good. 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:11.320 Exactly, and yet Americans, there's a lot of Americans, as 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:13.440 you know, ed that don't feel so good. I mean, 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.120 based on your conversations, did you get a feel of 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.840 who might ultimately win come November we know it's a 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.799 very close race. We see the polls, we are reminded 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:26.240 of it daily or hourly. But did you get a 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:29.480 good feel of which way it could go? And is 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.280 it just based on the signs that were on people's lawns? 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:34.600 Oh my goodness. Okay, listen. 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.080 If presidents were elected to be a signage, Donald Trump 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.040 would be the Roman emprop because I can tell you, guys, 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.240 and you know hand on hot I didn't see a 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.240 single Harris sign in the rust Belt. I didn't see 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:47.440 a single sign. 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:49.280 No, seriously, I know, I get it. 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.280 I went around the country a lot in the last 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.200 couple of months. One question I'll ask, though, is when 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:55.120 were you doing this? 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:55.640 What month? 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:59.120 Because remember July twenty first is when Biden dropped out. Yeah, 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.840 and this signs weren't around. The signs weren't around for. 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.400 A while, so August, the whole month of August. It's 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:05.800 a really good point about data. 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.560 And of course it might be that the missing signs 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.360 just aren't there because either they haven't been printed or 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.160 because people don't want to put them up, in which 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.560 case you might say that Richard Nixon's silent majority is 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.000 going to go blue this year. I've got to tell you, 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:24.480 you know, I'll declare my bias. I'm voting this time, 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.919 I'm voting against Donald Trump. So there's my bias, me 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:32.760 not seeing a single Harris sign and seeing ginormous Trump signs. 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:34.880 You know, you can't help but think, Okay, this guy's 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:35.320 going to win. 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.240 It's a good point. I think I've talked about this before, 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.520 but I was in Colorado a few weeks ago. It 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.120 seemed like there were there were two things that I'll share. 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.200 One is that there were a lot of local signs 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:51.039 that were clearly proclaiming the way one person felt like 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:52.880 who the candidates were that they were voting for that 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:57.560 didn't necessarily add have a presidential sign with them. So 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:02.440 it was like county commissioner, Congress, and local state legislature signs, 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.440 but not necessarily signs proclaiming president, which I thought really interesting, 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:08.560 showing the way people are thinking downballot. 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:09.880 That's super interesting too. 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:12.839 And where I live, I'm in a red county, but 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:17.080 I'm getting leaflets from both sides, both parties, and they've 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:19.640 stopped putting their political party on them, just the name 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:21.480 of the candidate, which I think is maybe another. 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:22.159 Interesting data point. 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:24.520 I do also wonder, you know so much. There was 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.839 an interesting time story actually the New York Times, and 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:29.800 it said the Trump voters who don't believe Trump, when 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.680 the former president endorses violence and proposes using the government 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.159 to attack his enemies, many of the supporters assumes it's 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.800 just an act. I actually had a conversation with an 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:39.560 individual over the past week when we were out on 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:41.960 the West coast. Same thing said. You know, I just 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.839 think when when the former president Donald Trump says things, 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.599 he's just trying to, like, you know, kind of put 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.880 people off, if you will, whether it's allies, whether it's 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.320 political opponents, just kind of shake things up, but not 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:57.920 that he's necessarily going to follow through with all these things. 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.400 We know from his first administration he does follow through 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.000 with some things. But I wonder what you make of 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:04.480 that argument or that thinking. 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:07.039 I wouldn't want to take the risk. Frankly, as I say, 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:07.679 I have a bias. 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:11.800 I think he's a clear and present danger to borrow 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:13.880 from Tom Clancy to the United States Constitution. 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:14.840 That's my view. 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.039 But the interesting thing I think about sort of, you know, 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.320 me turning up in hunting stores and seven to eleven's 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:24.080 and not being a polster and not really being a journalist, 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:26.240 is that very often I would speak to people who 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.880 do support Trump, but then they would sort of they'd 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:30.880 give me like the second and third layer too. And 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.360 one guy that comes to mind, he's running a hunting 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:36.920 store in Oregon, but he's sort of said to me, 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.000 I'm voting Trump, but there are things I don't like 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:40.719 about the guy. And I wouldn't talk like that in 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.640 front of my kids. So you know, that's still there, 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.039 and maybe I got to hear a bit more of 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:47.599 that because you know, who am I nobody? 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:48.360 I'm not a polster. 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:50.640 Yeah, I guess the question is to what extent these 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.040 folks show up? And also based on where you were at, 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.039 you know, Oregon, a state like Oregon not exactly a 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.480 swing state right now. I mean the Pennsylvania observation that 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.000 you made were really we're really interesting, and you did 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.159 drive through a lot of swing states certainly, but it's 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.320 you know, as you know, we live in a world 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:13.160 where the electoral college, and I think Mark Gongloffer, a 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.320 columnist at Bloomberg Opinion who covers climate change, described as 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:20.720 basically a football stadium full of people deciding the election. 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.360 Well, yes, that's probably true. So look, I'm back in 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:24.880 New York State. 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.680 Now, probably some of those people aren't too far away 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:28.680 in Pennsylvania. 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:29.600 This was non. 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.000 Scientific, as I say, but if you just based it 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:38.240 on visual evidence, conversational evidence, it feels like on the 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.680 surface of things, Trump has this in the bag. Now, 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.680 that said, there's always that chance that, as we know, 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:46.560 in an election this close, you know that the other 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:48.480 side pips through for some reason or other. 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.640 But my feeling is that Trump could really get to 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:53.640 the end here. 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.200 So why did you write about this in the context 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:59.440 of the silent majority in the Richard Nixon area? Why 0:07:59.520 --> 0:07:59.840 go back? 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.760 Well, I think in part it's because I also have 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:08.560 this side hustle teaching students, right, and yeah, I've been 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:10.720 doing that for like five or six years now, really 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:16.000 enjoy it. But I've seen a change in the body politic, 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.080 so to speak, of the student body, and it seems 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.120 to me that there's at least one parallel with the 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:26.280 Vietnam War, which is that there are moralistic imperatives in 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:32.160 the minds of protesters to oppose US foreign policy. Now, 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:35.240 for me, that's false, that's not an equivalence that works 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.600 because Vietnam as things turned out an error and the 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.480 war that Israel's fighting was imposed on it. But you know, 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.079 Richard Nixon was really trying to say in that speech 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.440 that look, you may not hear the people out there. 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.319 For Richard Nixon, he liked to speak about himself and 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.800 the third person, but they're out there, they're just not protesting. 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:55.000 And so the question was. 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:57.960 Are the people that aren't really out on the streets, 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.960 are the people that aren't display big Trump signs thinking 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:03.160 about voting for Harris? 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:04.440 And I'm afraid to say, I don't know. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:07.920 Yeah, I feel like there's a fair amount of questions 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:11.240 about you know that, and just kind of then what 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.440 it means for the outcome. I am also curious ed 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.120 you're back from overseas. We talk a lot about whether 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.800 it's us allies their concerns about the outcome of the election. 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.240 What insight can you give us on that front. 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:27.720 I think from my perspective, from you know, European eyes, 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:31.160 that I have foreigners in the UK and Europe think 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.400 this is probably an existential election. I'm heading over to 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.280 Japan in a couple of months, I imagine they think 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:39.720 the same thing. And a lot of this comes down 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:42.840 to NATO, right, and whether or not if Trump is 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:47.280 re elected he goes and does to your point, Carol, 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.960 about whether he actually does the things he says, actually 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:52.800 does go ahead and pull the US out of NATO 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:56.000 in a meaningful way, And that's probably a segue at 0:09:56.000 --> 0:10:00.040 some point into the Ukrainian behavior on the battlefield. But 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.120 foreigners right now, I think are really scratching their heads 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:06.920 about how exactly there could be such a bifurcated choice 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:09.760 in the world of foreign policy between what we presume 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:11.880 Harris will do and what Trump might. 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.640 There's one caveat. They do seem to be joined at 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:16.480 the hip in agreeing that Beijing. 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:18.720 Is a problem, and it does seem whoever wins, as 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.760 we know, trade policy will continue down a confrontational path. 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.480 It is amazing to me ed are not surprising that 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.040 there was a period where every day one of the 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.000 top stories on the Bloomberg had to do with the 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.520 war between those two countries. Obviously, now we have the 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.160 Middle East we're following, and that is a top the 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.760 list of concerns geo politically, though, Let's talk about Russia 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.360 Ukraine and where you think this might go and how 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.280 the US election outcome might impact that. 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:46.320 Well, thank you, Carl. 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:49.400 I mean, it's astonishing and sad that we've been talking 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:53.839 now for years about this war and it's entering its 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:57.720 third winter. So I think where it's gone is more 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:00.880 or less where the broad analytical community expected it to go, 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:04.560 which was stalemate. There are, of course, two caveats to that. 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.320 One is time, which is that the Russians are fighting 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.280 a war of attrition, and the other is, for want 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.520 of a better phrase, bravery, in that the Ukrainians have 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.000 now thrust into the Cursk. 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:17.800 Region with their own offensive. 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:21.880 My interpretation of that offensive is that it is designed 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:27.920 as a message, a plea to the United States saying, look, 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:29.240 we can do the job. 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.120 We have the will give us the means. 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.000 And of course we are still sitting on decisions such 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:39.040 as whether or not long range weaponry should be used, 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.199 should be allowed to be used on Russian soil, So 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:44.720 a lot will come down to who's sitting in the 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:45.160 White House. 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.760 I think, what do you say to US citizens who 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.280 might be like, well, it's the Europeans problem, Say it's 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.520 for the Europeans to figure out to support, to provide 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.280 funding and weapons. What do you say to that. 0:11:57.520 --> 0:11:59.960 Well, I would say that Munich in nineteen thirty eight 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.000 it was the Europeans problem, and then after that Poland 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.640 in nineteen thirty nine was the Europeans problem, and then 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:07.160 after that it wasn't it was ours. 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:08.360 It was America's problem. 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:13.920 And America has a fundamental or national interest in containing, 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:19.480 if not defeating, aggressive military powers in the world. I mean, 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.679 this is almost one of the top three American things, right, 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:27.320 It's like apple pie, the aforementioned freedom and beating dictators. 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.440 So you know, I'm surprised when I hear that narrative. 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.319 I think it's tied in a strange way to this 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.240 Trump wing of the Republican Party. If there's another wing 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.360 left in which Russia is held up as an example, 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.520 Hungary is held up as an example of how to 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:44.960 do business, how to run a country. It's very strange, 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:49.400 but of course it's patently false and should putin defeat 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:51.720 Ukraine in the field. 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:53.800 We're in a world of trouble. 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.280 Meanan what there'll be Poland or something else next. 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.280 Well, first of all, dictatorships everywhere will be emboldened. I 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.720 think that there's an obvious link between the relationship between 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:09.400 Russia and Iran, and Iran was obviously emboldened to embolden 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:11.760 others such as hes Balar and Hamas to attack Israel. 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.600 So this is not one war. This war is an ecosystem. 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:21.360 But meaning as well that the revanchist nationalist Russia that 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.360 Putin has unleashed in the last decade or so and 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.960 that we have failed to confront, does have its eyes 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.720 on the restoration of a former Tsarist empire. It's not 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:34.000 the Soviet model. This is a red herring. It's the 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:38.240 Sarist imperial model of Russia, in which there are these vassals, 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.880 these occupied vassals around its borders as a form of 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.920 self defense. You can perfectly well imagine why the Russians 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:48.719 are paranoid. They've been invaded several times, believe it or not. 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.040 British and Japanese troops have been on Russian soil in 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.400 the twentieth century, and so on. But unless we the 0:13:55.440 --> 0:14:01.160 West properly confront this aggression, forecast that it will only 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:01.560 get worse. 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.480 Okay, So make the case then if members of the 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.520 US House and Senate are listening or watching right now, 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.240 make the case as to why you believe it's essential 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:12.559 to support Ukraine. 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.240 So there's an idealistic case and there is a practical case. 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.000 The idealistic case is the one that I just gave you. 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.240 I would appeal to any elected official in the United States, 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.200 I would appeal to their heart, and I would say, look, 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:29.160 America has a unique role in the world. Jefferson, let 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.680 the genie out of the bottle. It's a good genie. 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:34.600 It's about human freedom, and it should be universal. That's 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:35.760 the idealistic case. 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:36.920 There's also. 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.200 A monetary case, right, there's a fiscal case, which is 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:43.520 how much money do you want to spend putting Putin 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.080 back in his box? And as far as I'm concerned, 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.120 this is cynical. You could say, well, who really cares 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.600 about Ukraine? What we really want is to defeat and 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.640 degrade Russian power, and by the way, I think we've 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.240 been doing that. So I think that Putin has made 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.040 tactical games measured in years, but has probably set himself 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:07.400 back strategically as measured in decades. Right, So he's not invincible. 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.480 The curse offensive for shownness. And if we just want 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:14.040 to send a rounding era of our national budget and 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.320 inventory that we otherwise would have mothbolled to brave people 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:20.280 fighting for freedom. That's an idealistic thing, but it's also 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.680 very practical because again, otherwise. 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:24.680 You think about Ukraine going down. 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.880 I mean, then you know Poland the Baltics are in trouble, 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.160 or Putin says that's enough for now and sends all 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:35.560 of his expertise and or material soldiers say to Iran 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:36.800 in a war with Israel. 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:38.680 So this we really have to think about this practically 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:39.120 as well. 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.080 Hey, ed, one thing I wanted to ask you also, 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:45.760 coming back from being in the UK and overseas, are 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.240 people getting frustrated with the US support of Israel? 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:54.120 Yes, but they shouldn't be. This is a very sensitive topic. 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.040 I recently wrote an op ed about this. I thought 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.600 very carefully about writing it, but I did. And it 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.320 asked three questions. One, is Israel fighting a war of 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:05.040 self defense? 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:05.960 The answers yes. 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.720 The second question was is Israel conducting a genocide? 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:10.520 And the answer is no. 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.560 And then the third question was is Israel bringing us 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.120 all to the brink of World War three? And the 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.080 answer was, I don't know. If you spend more time 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:22.800 thinking about security in terms of appeasement and nineteen thirty eight. 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:25.680 As I mentioned, then Israel was attacked and is doing 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.480 the absolute right thing in defending itself. If you think 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.040 this is more like a nineteen sixty two Cuban missile 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.640 scenario globally, then perhaps we should be getting to the 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:36.960 time that we wrap this thing up. I'm in the 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.800 former camp, A lot of people are in the latter. 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.440 But I would say that every single time Putin has said, look, 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.960 I'm going to use terrible weapons. 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:46.720 He doesn't always use or whatever, use. 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:50.080 The words nuclear weapons, and we've said, well, actually we 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:52.240 will cross that red line, he's done nothing. 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.160 So I think we are acting. 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:59.000 With a week attitude. 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:00.840 And a strong hand. We should get on and finish 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:01.200 the job. 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.040 I'm going to hate myself for asking you this, but 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.600 forty seconds quickly, what do you think is the number 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.400 one threat to the world, be it an individual, a dictator, 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:09.080 or a country. 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.400 I think the number one threat to the world is 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.080 a all out conflict between China and the United States 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:15.960 that turns nuclear. 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.480 The good news is I think that's unlikely right now. 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.800 The Chinese do not want to attack Taiwan before they 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.280 see how these other two conflicts play out, and so 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.719 there's another maybe third reason for your senators and your 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.399 congressmen and congresswomen avoiding World War three. 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:31.600 We did it. 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:33.560 It took us around the world, as you always do. 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:36.960 Thank you, Thank you so much. Glad we can reach 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.320 out to you and that you are ours coincide a 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.160 little bit better with us right now, the. 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:45.359 US, Russia, Ukraine, Israel, more of the Middle East, China. 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:46.520 We did it all with that price. 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:49.520 Yeah, and as we often say, it's all complicated him 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.840 laying it out though so clearly at price. Thank you 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:55.240 so much, senior fellow at NYU, former British trade official, 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.720 Thank you, thank you. This is Bloomberg Business Week. 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.720 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:08.000 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm. Easter Listen 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:10.680 on Apple car Play and Android Auto with a Bloomberg 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.920 Business act or watch us live on YouTube. 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.320 Fashion has been all about genes since the pandemic, well 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.920 and also yoga pants to be fair, but there are 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.080 signs that that might be changing. I mean retailers and 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:26.760 data makers. They will need to move fast to catch 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:27.520 the next trend. 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.200 Earlier this month, Levi released earnings and after seeing challenges 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.360 abroad in declines across its home market, the company cut 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:35.440 its full your guidance. 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.800 Levi also said it's reviewing options for underperforming dockers, including 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.639 US sale as it focuses on its namesake and beyond 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:43.640 yoga brands. 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.359 For some insight into the company's plans, Molly Smith and 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.879 I caught up with Levi Strauss cfo her Meat Singh. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:54.119 We are the market leader and the as the market 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.879 leader market Leader market leaders now and Women's as the 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:02.040 market Leader are response coonssibility is to lead trends and 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:06.639 drive people towards our products. You know, we're focused on 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:09.199 what we call Denim lifestyle, which is more head to 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:11.560 toe across both men's and women's. 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:13.960 You're wrapping it and how yeah. 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.119 And I'm wrapping it. You can see, you know, the 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:18.960 other folks. But Denim is having a moment, as you 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:23.320 call it. The last cycle started with the skinny way 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.480 back into in the late late two thousand and seven, 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.280 two thousand and eight. That lasted for about eight nine years. 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:34.560 We were the first to introduce the loser fit just 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:39.239 before COVID, and it took off post COVID. And you know, 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.760 the other thing that we really focused on is because 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.959 the words become a lot more casual after COVID. You 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:47.919 see it in a hybrid work culture, you see it 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.679 in other social occasions. And so we are making a 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.720 stronger pivot to the non denim piece of our apparel. 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:58.800 For men, we've got something called performance Tech. It's like 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:02.560 the ABC Lulupan, and that's really gaining traction. And so 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:06.000 as we think about, you know, growing the business, it's 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:10.000 about owning allows the share of the closet without taking 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.400 the eye off the ball on what we're really known for, 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:14.800 which is denim. And so it's all about denim lifestyle. 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:16.560 I would think a lot of it right now too, 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.280 is about wide legged denimo. I mean that is just 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:21.679 like we had a great story about this recently about 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.879 you know, women in particular who are buying you know, 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.760 roughly one hundred dollars wide legged jeans and then the 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.240 seven hundred dollars wardrobe to go along with it. 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:32.240 Jim's eyes just bulged. 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:34.600 So yeah, all the rest of maybe like the crop 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.200 sweaters and jackets, because if you've got like a waist 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:38.960 that's coming up kind of high, then you want the 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.760 shirt to kind of hit roughly around there. I'm learning this. 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:43.479 I have a style of she's telling me all about it. 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.520 So yeah, I mean, obviously, Hermie, you could tell us 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:47.359 more about this zeal. 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.239 It's actually you hit the nail of the head. I 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:52.520 was going to talk to you about it. But it's 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:57.119 not only about bottoms, and as the as the fits 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:00.400 for the bottom to change, so do the tops, and 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.280 so as we think about denim lifestyle, we're also focused 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.639 on growing our tops business, which was up nicely in 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:11.480 quarter three. You know, it's up to eight percent. But overall, 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:15.480 what you saw in quarter three largely was that Levi's 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:19.200 as a brand grew five percent, and that's the strongest 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:23.520 good we have had in Levi's over two years. Sequentially 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:26.040 is getting better, and that's why, as we talked about 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.639 quarter four, while we took our overall guidance for the 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:33.080 year down, you know, our belief is sequentially quarter four 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.200 is you know, slightly better than quarter three. 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:37.120 Well, if if Dunham is having this moment, then why 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:39.399 don't you think investors are buying into this? Levi Strauss 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.400 shares up about twelve percent so far this year, underperforming 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:46.359 the S and P five hundred. Why aren't investors buying into. 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:50.400 This, Yeah, I think. You know, what we've done this 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:55.520 year is we have narrowed focused into Levi's and beyond yoga. 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:59.040 You know, we announced the exitive Dockers. The Dockers was underperforming. 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:02.600 We had a small footwear business really based out of Europe. 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:07.640 We are exiting that. And we were present in Target 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:12.560 through our Denisen brand. We introduced Levi's Red Tab in 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:15.199 Target that had a good run. So you know, we 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:18.119 thought it was better to focus on Levi's than Red Tab. 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:21.320 And so as you think about it, I think the 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.560 fact that we are transforming in the year, while are 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:28.360 we trying to perform and performing really well on Levi's, 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:31.480 is I think why people are just saying, Okay, let 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:36.040 the transformation you know, get complete and we'll buy in. 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.080 But overall, you know, Levi's as a stock over the 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:42.480 last twelve months has had a decent run. We're long 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:44.720 on the stock, We're long on you know, trends of 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:47.760 the business. Our longer term goal is to take the 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:49.879 six billion dollar business and make it more like a 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:55.040 ten dollars ten billion dollar business, improving our operating margins 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:57.600 by a couple of percentage points. The other thing that 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:00.320 is happening in the business. Is this transformation to more 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:04.000 of a DDC first business. It doesn't mean d DC only. 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:06.600 It does mean, you know, we lead with DDC, which 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:11.400 is our stores, r E commas and wholesale compliments are 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:15.800 a direct to consumer business, and that transformation is taking 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:19.000 ship today. DDC is about half our business when I 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:20.720 joined us, about a fifth of our business. 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:22.480 We're gonna get more on direct to consumer in just 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:24.240 a minute. But you mentioned doctors, so I wanted to 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:26.480 talk to you a little bit about the options for doctors. 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:28.880 You did announce that you're looking to sell the business. 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:31.320 When when I heard that, I think to myself, this 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.680 is like a perfect fit for authentic Brands group. Jamie 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:38.320 Stalter is like, you know, Jamie Salter's group. He's got Airwalk, 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:45.200 air Apostle, Billibong, DC, Greg Norman, Eddie Bauer, Champion Fry. 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:48.000 I mean, I'm only down to F at that point 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:51.959 in the alphabet. He's got everything over there down to Volcom. 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:52.960 Does that make sense? 0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:57.240 You know? I won't comment about prospective bias. I would 0:23:57.240 --> 0:24:01.080 say that the reason we announced the exit of Docers 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:04.000 we created Dockers. Okay, so it's a homegrown brand that 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:06.359 had a wonderful run for a long period of time. 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:10.480 We launched Dockers just to you know, take advantage of 0:24:10.520 --> 0:24:13.240 the casual friday of a sudden in the in the 0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:18.240 mid to late eighties. The what has happened is it's 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:21.359 in a lower growth category. And I'm a you know, 0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:24.800 we're a firm believer that what this does is unlocked 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:27.440 Dockers with somebody who can take it to the next 0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:31.480 level while we concentrated on taking Levis to the next level. 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:34.080 I've been part of spinoffs and I've seen that happen. 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:39.000 To your question about you know, prospective buyers, we announced 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:42.720 it so that we would probably hear from perspective bias 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:46.160 is early days. Our intent is to sell it, uh, 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:48.920 and intended to sell it to bias that can not 0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:51.880 only take the brand to the next level, protect as 0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:56.480 many employees of Dockers as they can and UH and 0:24:56.520 --> 0:24:57.520 we'll see where this goes. 0:24:57.760 --> 0:24:57.879 Uh. 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:01.800 Phones are ringing, which is a good new These transactions 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:06.560 take time and you know, when we have something to 0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:09.439 talk about us, So who's the perspective of acquire, we'll 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:11.480 definitely you know, talk about that. 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:13.080 You just call us, Yeah, let us know. 0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:15.920 Yeah, just pass their phone calls maybe onto us when 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:18.800 those phones are ringing. I mean, what kind of timeline 0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:21.040 do you think is reasonable to look at something like 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:23.160 that to really complete that kind of a space. 0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:27.159 No, it's a strong brand, and in our view is 0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:31.439 something like this can take six to nine months. You know, 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:34.440 what we're really interested is is ensure that it's the 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:37.639 right buyer who does the right thing for the brand. 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:40.359 And so you know, we're going to do it in 0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:43.680 a fast way, but we'll do it the right way. 0:25:44.200 --> 0:25:46.360 Right Well, I mean, I think this is the time 0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:49.680 where we pivot to Beyonce. I mean, tell us more 0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:52.520 about this partnership. I think a lot of people want 0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:54.720 to know about it when what exactly like her role 0:25:54.840 --> 0:25:57.639 is with the brand here, Like, is Beyonce like straight 0:25:57.720 --> 0:26:00.359 up designing Levi's clothes? Now, Like, can I at a 0:26:00.440 --> 0:26:02.919 Beyonce designed pair of Levi's jeens. 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:06.120 No, It's it's not about a product collaboration. It's about 0:26:06.119 --> 0:26:09.920 a partnership with someone. You know, she's an icon, She's 0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:13.679 been in the center of culture. You know, you know 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:18.400 she her values and our values resonate. You know, she'd 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:21.520 been a supporter of the brand for years, for decades 0:26:21.960 --> 0:26:26.320 and when she named a song after Roy Carter Cowboy 0:26:26.359 --> 0:26:30.760 Carter and the song Levi's that was organic she you know, 0:26:30.800 --> 0:26:34.560 in nineteen I remember she she was at Coachella and 0:26:34.960 --> 0:26:39.560 was wearing US shots again a very organic you know 0:26:39.880 --> 0:26:43.439 uh thing that she did, and you know, product sales 0:26:43.440 --> 0:26:45.720 went up on the shots. So you know, we kind 0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:48.360 of sat back and said, you know, it's a it's 0:26:48.359 --> 0:26:50.399 a it's been a great partnership. Could we take it 0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:54.200 to the next level and having somebody like her support 0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:57.919 our brand, support the iconic apparel that we have, the 0:26:57.960 --> 0:27:01.720 five or ones for example, the teacher. Actually actually, you know, 0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:04.280 I think we think it's a win win for both 0:27:05.000 --> 0:27:08.080 Beyonce as well as US. Plus, you know, we're leaning 0:27:09.400 --> 0:27:12.359 heavily into driving our women's business about a third of 0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:15.240 our business. We see no reason why it shouldn't be 0:27:15.240 --> 0:27:18.679 half our business, right and I think you know, she 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:22.760 has you know, many fans around the world, and I 0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:25.960 think the combination of the two brands would make a difference. 0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:27.640 Just about fifty seconds and then we're going to come 0:27:27.640 --> 0:27:32.359 back for more with you. Have you already noticed a 0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:36.159 higher sales figure or more loyalty on the back of 0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:36.720 this campaign. 0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:39.879 You know, it's early days with a campaign. This is 0:27:39.920 --> 0:27:44.240 the it's a twelve month partnership. We just launched the 0:27:44.240 --> 0:27:47.560 first chapter. You know, we'll have three other chapters. But 0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:51.120 what I can say is, you know, difficult to link 0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:54.800 you know, brand advertising with direct sales. But what I 0:27:54.840 --> 0:27:58.880 could say right now is as we close quarter three, 0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:02.520 which is reported, women's sales were up, you know, close 0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:05.960 to eleven percent. I Iconic five oh one was up 0:28:06.000 --> 0:28:08.800 double digit and I you know, so that's what we 0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:10.400 believe continues over time. 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:13.520 You guys went public about five years ago again on 0:28:13.560 --> 0:28:15.880 the New York Stock Exchange. I was at that IPO 0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:18.639 because I was working on the floor of the exchange 0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:20.959 back then, and you guys were able to do something 0:28:21.280 --> 0:28:24.360 that I think in the you know, more than one 0:28:24.400 --> 0:28:26.960 hundred year history of the New York Stock Exchange has 0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:30.960 not ever been done before, which is allowed genes on 0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:32.880 the floor on the trading floor. 0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:33.120 There. 0:28:33.400 --> 0:28:35.199 There's a lot of rules of the New York Stock Exchange. 0:28:35.200 --> 0:28:36.840 One of them is no genes allowed. I came in 0:28:36.840 --> 0:28:40.080 that day, everybody was decked out in genes and wasn't. 0:28:39.840 --> 0:28:40.800 Everybody looking great? 0:28:40.880 --> 0:28:46.000 Oh yeah, Levis, Yeah, it was Lewis Jeans, and you 0:28:46.000 --> 0:28:48.520 know that was you know, part of the deal we 0:28:48.880 --> 0:28:50.880 did with n y I see, you know, as we 0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:54.640 were debating Nico and Nasdaq, you know, we said, hey, 0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:57.320 if you can change the floor on the day of 0:28:57.360 --> 0:29:01.000 the listing and make it a denim flow, you know, 0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:01.479 we are in. 0:29:01.560 --> 0:29:04.200 And they were able to do that and into the wonderful, 0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:08.240 you know, wonderful morning, and you know, I think beginning 0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:09.600 of a new chapter for. 0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:12.840 The company understanding how things work between the New York 0:29:12.840 --> 0:29:15.920 Stock Exchange and the NASDAC. I think that they probably 0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:17.920 didn't even have to check with anyone. They probably just 0:29:17.920 --> 0:29:21.160 said yes at that moment, Harmid, I promise we get 0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:23.360 back to the idea of going direct to consumer and 0:29:23.400 --> 0:29:26.640 building that relationship one on one with the consumer. Nike 0:29:26.760 --> 0:29:29.120 tried to do this over the last few years and 0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:32.680 they really alienated the foot lockers of the world who 0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:34.480 were such a big part of their business. And now 0:29:34.520 --> 0:29:36.680 there's a new CEO Nike, they're trying to turn that 0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:39.680 ship around, repair that relationship. How do you do this 0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:42.360 but not alienate alienate the brick and mortar stores who 0:29:42.400 --> 0:29:44.800 for so long have sold your products. 0:29:44.920 --> 0:29:48.240 Yeah, I know, we love our wholesale customers. And the 0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:51.200 second pillow of a strategy is DDC first, but it's 0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:52.200 not DDC only. 0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:55.000 The whole CTC direct to consumer. 0:29:54.760 --> 0:29:58.560 Drake to consumer wholesale is in a big compliment to 0:29:58.640 --> 0:30:02.120 how we're going to grow the business. The reason DDC 0:30:02.280 --> 0:30:05.960 is important is allows us to provide more of a 0:30:06.000 --> 0:30:09.400 head to two assortment. We can drive the consumer experience 0:30:09.800 --> 0:30:13.040 and it's actually a proof point for wholesale retailers to 0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:15.880 see how the product is taking ship. So our new 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:20.480 product introductions and we have a wonderful product pipeline hits 0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:24.680 the DDC flow first, the wholesale customers see how it's performing, 0:30:24.720 --> 0:30:28.520 and then they buy into it. We need wholesale customers 0:30:28.720 --> 0:30:31.640 largely because you know, to be the market leader, we 0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:34.360 have to reach out to consumers in a far and 0:30:34.400 --> 0:30:37.840 beyond and the only way to do that is having 0:30:37.880 --> 0:30:41.880 a combination of a successful DDC business and a successful 0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:42.760 wholesale business. 0:30:42.920 --> 0:30:45.120 So I imagine ideally like you would love to see 0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:49.440 the DTC base be new customers, adding like net new 0:30:49.520 --> 0:30:52.320 customers to the business. But is there a risk that 0:30:52.360 --> 0:30:55.520 this cannibalizes the wholesale customer and that they shift over. 0:30:55.840 --> 0:30:57.840 Yeah, you know, it's a very good question. I've been 0:30:57.880 --> 0:31:00.720 asked that a couple of times and not seeing any 0:31:00.720 --> 0:31:04.680 evidence of cannibalization the other pieces in the US. Our 0:31:04.760 --> 0:31:07.720 d d C offer is what we call tier one 0:31:07.760 --> 0:31:10.240 and tier two, so's is the best and the better 0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:14.000 the offer for wholesale customers more tier three. We are 0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:16.880 talking to a few wholesale customers to introduce our tier 0:31:16.920 --> 0:31:20.560 two offer because in the top fifty sixty dollars, you know, 0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:26.400 there is the consumer that wants the higher tier product. 0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:30.880 So we're not seeing cannibalization. We also don't see cannibalization 0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:34.680 between the different two channels within d d C, which 0:31:34.720 --> 0:31:37.680 is e commerce and our stores and in fact consumers 0:31:37.680 --> 0:31:41.960 now as you know, you know, like a seamless you know, 0:31:42.040 --> 0:31:47.280 shopping experience. So our view is that both channels can grow. 0:31:47.400 --> 0:31:51.080 DDC grows probably faster because we control the channel. We're 0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:54.320 able to drive the experience and have a head to 0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:55.000 tour assortment. 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:58.240 We're talking a lot about the US election. It's top 0:31:58.240 --> 0:32:00.880 of mind here for us. Question is not about the 0:32:00.920 --> 0:32:04.720 politics of this, but about how you're potentially preparing for 0:32:05.040 --> 0:32:10.120 another Trump administration given the tariffs that you experienced during 0:32:10.160 --> 0:32:15.720 the first Trump administration when Trump put European still in 0:32:15.760 --> 0:32:19.200 aluminum ex sports tariffs on those, and then you guys 0:32:19.200 --> 0:32:23.120 were hit with tariffs on jeans. So there's that part 0:32:23.160 --> 0:32:25.520 of it, and then a potential more tariffs between the 0:32:25.640 --> 0:32:27.320 US and China. How do you plan for that? 0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:30.800 Yeah, you know, we've been around for one hundred and 0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:36.000 seventy years, you know, and we've seen different administrations. The 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:40.200 business in the brand has grown through different administrations, and 0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:44.200 so from our perspective, you know, we believe that. And 0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:46.120 you know when we guided quote a fold and we 0:32:46.160 --> 0:32:50.480 talked about a sequential progression, you know, our belief is 0:32:50.520 --> 0:32:54.200 the brand continues to grow. To your question about tariffs. 0:32:55.520 --> 0:33:00.640 A couple of years ago, we were importing from China 0:33:00.720 --> 0:33:04.280 into the US about fifteen sixteen percent of the product. 0:33:05.320 --> 0:33:08.000 Over the years, we've scaled that down, so the imports 0:33:08.080 --> 0:33:12.440 into the US from China about a percentage going instead. 0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:15.840 And because we have a supply chain, we're able to 0:33:15.880 --> 0:33:19.640 cross source it across different geographies. So you know, we've 0:33:19.680 --> 0:33:22.320 been able to cross source it from other countries in 0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:27.440 Asia and think Vietnam, think Bangladesh, think Pakistan, and that's 0:33:27.480 --> 0:33:31.600 really what's really helped us the cross sourcing strategy. Besides 0:33:31.640 --> 0:33:35.200 the fact that we're not concentrated significantly in anyone country 0:33:35.200 --> 0:33:39.840 makes a difference. And so our view is that you know, 0:33:40.680 --> 0:33:44.880 any administration, you know, we'll be able to continue to grow. 0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:48.400 What about resaliatory tariffs from the European Union or other 0:33:48.440 --> 0:33:50.040 countries on your own products? 0:33:50.120 --> 0:33:52.760 Yeah, I think you know, we have a strong business 0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:55.400 in Europe. If you have to cross source, we can, 0:33:55.840 --> 0:33:58.960 I think the end of the day Israeli. How does 0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:02.760 it impact the consum You know, tariffs could mean higher 0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:06.160 prices for the consumer, and that is something that we will, 0:34:07.680 --> 0:34:10.800 you know, tackle as the time comes along. Our products 0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:14.160 provide good value, okay, and if they are in fashion 0:34:14.239 --> 0:34:17.240 and they're you know, we bring in innovation, the consumer 0:34:17.360 --> 0:34:20.200 is going to gravitate and open the checkbook to buy 0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:22.600 our products. So, you know, as we think through it, 0:34:22.640 --> 0:34:26.360 we have contingency plans in place in case, you know, 0:34:26.680 --> 0:34:30.160 different scenarios play out, and well we'll be able to 0:34:30.160 --> 0:34:30.959 tackle through them. 0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:34.080 Is it tempting to think about a fifteen percent corporate tax, 0:34:34.160 --> 0:34:36.759 right and what you might do with all that money 0:34:36.760 --> 0:34:38.000 that's not paid in taxes? 0:34:38.320 --> 0:34:43.120 You know, I have a wonderful tax group that you know, 0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:48.480 plan different tax opportunities all the time. But you know, 0:34:48.920 --> 0:34:52.319 our view is as good corporate citizens. You know, we 0:34:52.400 --> 0:34:54.360 have to pay the taxes. We'll pay the taxes. 0:34:54.400 --> 0:34:56.040 And is that noble thing to say? 0:34:56.160 --> 0:34:59.160 Yeah? They and you know, at the end of the day, 0:35:00.080 --> 0:35:03.600 it's very important for us to provide great value to 0:35:03.640 --> 0:35:06.120 our consumers and build the oil fans, and that's what 0:35:06.160 --> 0:35:06.879 we focus on. 0:35:07.239 --> 0:35:10.200 I gotta say, not many of our guests can pull 0:35:10.239 --> 0:35:13.839 off head to toe denim. And it's not just that, 0:35:13.880 --> 0:35:16.960 it's also the shirt as well. Harmy, You're one of 0:35:16.960 --> 0:35:19.600 those folks who can do that. Har meet sing CFO 0:35:19.840 --> 0:35:22.440 at Levi Strauss joining us here in the Bloomberg. 0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:24.400 Thanks Tom, Thanks studio. 0:35:24.960 --> 0:35:27.200 Good Harmy. It's going to be featured in the forthcoming 0:35:27.200 --> 0:35:31.200 issue of Bloomberg's CFO Briefing newsletter. You can sign up 0:35:31.239 --> 0:35:35.480 for it now at Bloomberg dot com, slash account, slash newsletters, 0:35:35.680 --> 0:35:37.840 slash CFO Briefing. 0:35:37.640 --> 0:35:38.880 CFO hyphen Briefing. 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:42.640 Oh don't us. That is not going to work. It 0:35:42.760 --> 0:35:46.040 will not check out that newsletter though. You also just Bloomberg. 0:35:47.000 --> 0:35:48.320 Just google Bloomberg Newsletters. 0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:49.600 Oh yeah, I'm sure to come up. 0:35:49.600 --> 0:35:51.000 We got a whole bunch of them out there. 0:35:52.640 --> 0:35:56.479 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 0:35:56.600 --> 0:35:59.400 each weekday. He's starting at two pm Eastern Apple car 0:35:59.520 --> 0:36:02.480 Play and Royd Auto with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You 0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.800 can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:09.640 New York station, Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:36:10.640 --> 0:36:13.080 Josh Reeves co founded and runs a company that's been 0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:16.560 valued at nearly ten billion dollars. The company handles all 0:36:16.600 --> 0:36:18.520 the stuff it seems a lot of founders don't really 0:36:18.560 --> 0:36:22.239 want to handle, you know, things like HR payroll benefits, 0:36:22.280 --> 0:36:23.520 and other stuff like that. 0:36:23.880 --> 0:36:26.560 Gusto has raised more than seven hundred million dollars and 0:36:26.600 --> 0:36:29.600 does payroll processing for more than three hundred thousand small 0:36:29.600 --> 0:36:32.799 and medium sized businesses. To put that in perspective, they 0:36:32.840 --> 0:36:35.880 do the payroll processing for more than six percent of 0:36:35.920 --> 0:36:37.360 employers in the US. 0:36:37.520 --> 0:36:40.480 It's a lot. Josh is also the CEO of Gusto. 0:36:40.760 --> 0:36:43.200 He's stopped by our studio to talk about his business 0:36:43.239 --> 0:36:46.040 and the kind of keen vantage point he has on 0:36:46.080 --> 0:36:47.080 the US economy. 0:36:47.320 --> 0:36:50.520 Yes, we do love serving small medium sized business I 0:36:50.600 --> 0:36:52.880 just love to remind folks there are the foundation for 0:36:52.960 --> 0:36:55.480 a lot of society. When you think of people and 0:36:55.560 --> 0:36:58.840 the businesses they can remember, it's often the communities that 0:36:58.880 --> 0:37:01.319 are near them. One thing we can see in our data, 0:37:01.320 --> 0:37:03.480 and it's also in the census data, there's a lot 0:37:03.520 --> 0:37:05.879 of new businesses being formed across the country. Over five 0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:09.520 hundred and fifty thou new employers in the US in 0:37:09.600 --> 0:37:13.359 this past year. That's something that got kickstarted and became 0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:16.640 stronger with COVID, and that's a tailwind to our business 0:37:16.680 --> 0:37:19.279 because we focus a lot on serving new employers when 0:37:19.280 --> 0:37:20.480 they hire their first employee. 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:23.880 We're the areas of strength, at least in your data geographically. 0:37:23.640 --> 0:37:26.680 So we see some strength more in the south East, 0:37:27.800 --> 0:37:29.279 so it's sort of the sun belt, a little bit 0:37:29.320 --> 0:37:31.959 more sun Belt. But then we also and I would 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:34.080 point to, published quite a bit of content here. We 0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:36.920 call it gustinomics. If anyone is ever interested. 0:37:36.640 --> 0:37:38.480 In exploring, Yeah, we're interested in that stuff. 0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:41.120 Economists on staff where we try to make that visible 0:37:41.160 --> 0:37:41.560 to anyone. 0:37:41.719 --> 0:37:42.960 No, we don't like data at all. 0:37:43.840 --> 0:37:47.399 Go ahead, that's like our thing. So you're seeing sun 0:37:47.440 --> 0:37:51.320 belt areas of weakness, areas of strength. What areas of 0:37:51.360 --> 0:37:52.600 weakness are you seeing areas. 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:56.360 Of weakness can tend to be more in the major cities. Still, 0:37:56.920 --> 0:37:58.520 that's gotten a little bit better in the last couple 0:37:58.560 --> 0:38:01.320 of years, but that's still hanging on. But it is 0:38:01.360 --> 0:38:03.839 also industry by industry, and I need to look back 0:38:03.840 --> 0:38:06.719 at the data myself. I left our mind, folks, there's 0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:09.560 more dentist offices in the US than tech startups. So 0:38:09.600 --> 0:38:12.719 even though I live and based in Silicon Valley, we 0:38:12.760 --> 0:38:15.000 obviously care a lot about that mainstream SMB audience. 0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:17.399 Well, so then you have a great window into where 0:38:17.520 --> 0:38:20.440 communities are developing and moving towards. And I just think 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:22.600 about the conversation we had last hour with our Brett 0:38:22.600 --> 0:38:27.239 Pulley taking us to a place where you know, you're 0:38:27.239 --> 0:38:30.239 seeing a lot of migration happening and something you hadn't seen. 0:38:30.520 --> 0:38:33.320 The pandemic did that too, So tell us about that shift. 0:38:33.320 --> 0:38:36.160 What you're seeing where communities where we maybe didn't have them, 0:38:36.200 --> 0:38:37.759 all of a sudden you see them really growing up. 0:38:38.120 --> 0:38:40.640 Well, specifically, it shows up in our business in what 0:38:40.680 --> 0:38:43.440 we would call multi state employment. So just the ability 0:38:43.520 --> 0:38:45.719 for a five to ten person company now to have 0:38:45.760 --> 0:38:49.080 employees be in multiple states. Well, there's a lot of 0:38:49.120 --> 0:38:51.440 positive to that you can access new talent pools. One 0:38:51.440 --> 0:38:54.319 of the biggest negatives is because of how the US 0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:57.800 was formed, local, state, and federal rules are quite different 0:38:57.920 --> 0:39:00.000 by region, and so that's where we also can try 0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:02.200 to be helpful is make it easier to kind of 0:39:02.200 --> 0:39:05.560 abstract that complexity. But we do talk about this compliance 0:39:05.640 --> 0:39:08.840 inflation concept that is still happening across the country. 0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:11.759 Because that means different payroll rules and regulations depending on 0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:12.719 the state that they live in. 0:39:12.840 --> 0:39:15.279 And the county and the town, and a lot of 0:39:15.320 --> 0:39:19.400 times it's basically highly variable. It ties to what that 0:39:19.440 --> 0:39:22.120 specific jurisdiction chose to do. And it's not just payroll. 0:39:22.480 --> 0:39:26.279 It could also be employment filings, it could be compliance requirements. 0:39:26.840 --> 0:39:29.880 Think about just all the different government rules that get created, 0:39:29.960 --> 0:39:33.640 really agnostic administration. Generally, it's just been more, not less, 0:39:33.960 --> 0:39:36.359 and a business owner, especially a small business owner, has 0:39:36.360 --> 0:39:37.200 to do it all on their own. 0:39:37.320 --> 0:39:40.279 How quickly do you get insight into what's going on 0:39:40.320 --> 0:39:43.760 in the economy? For example, when we see a job's 0:39:43.840 --> 0:39:48.280 number for September, a payroll's number that's just a blowout number. 0:39:48.640 --> 0:39:50.520 Is that not a surprise to you because you're seeing 0:39:50.520 --> 0:39:52.280 the same thing at your level. 0:39:52.719 --> 0:39:56.360 So it increasingly is getting to interesting scale, as you mentioned, 0:39:56.360 --> 0:39:58.680 where over three hundred thousand businesses. 0:39:58.440 --> 0:40:00.880 Like, when will we start talking not about the ADP 0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:03.840 numbers that we get, but about the GUSTO numbers. 0:40:03.880 --> 0:40:07.239 Well, maybe gustinomics becomes that next alternative. 0:40:07.320 --> 0:40:10.880 But seriously, I mean, you're six percent of employers in 0:40:10.920 --> 0:40:13.359 the country, Like, that's a real window. That's a huge 0:40:13.400 --> 0:40:14.240 sample size. 0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:17.280 Yeah, and we see all the data related to benefits, enrollment, 0:40:17.680 --> 0:40:23.200 salary distributions, wage increases or decreases, hiring, off boarding, all 0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:24.160 that shows up inside or. 0:40:24.320 --> 0:40:26.840 Or the basebook calls you up, or the FED officials 0:40:26.920 --> 0:40:28.200 call you up, or do they already? 0:40:28.320 --> 0:40:30.239 I mean, we have work we try to do on 0:40:30.640 --> 0:40:33.600 policy side to bring the voice of small business to 0:40:33.920 --> 0:40:37.520 policy makers. There's a whole host of folks that you know, 0:40:37.520 --> 0:40:39.520 would like access to this type of data more in 0:40:39.560 --> 0:40:41.880 the hedge fund world that we avoid and do not 0:40:41.920 --> 0:40:43.000 engage with obviously. 0:40:43.080 --> 0:40:45.160 So, Josh, if there's a net net in terms of 0:40:45.200 --> 0:40:48.920 what you're seeing your window into the US economy, what 0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:50.680 are the words you would use to describe the economy 0:40:50.719 --> 0:40:51.480 based on that data. 0:40:51.920 --> 0:40:54.480 Never been a better time to start a small business. 0:40:54.800 --> 0:40:56.719 And part of that is not just because of the 0:40:56.840 --> 0:41:00.239 trend we see concretely, but also companies like us trying 0:41:00.239 --> 0:41:01.280 to help make their life easier. 0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:04.280 So is it sort of puzzling to you to see 0:41:05.400 --> 0:41:08.840 Kamala Harris and Donald Trump out there on the campaign 0:41:08.920 --> 0:41:12.680 trail trying to make it even more attractive to small 0:41:12.680 --> 0:41:13.440 business owners. 0:41:14.360 --> 0:41:17.160 I don't think it's logical to me that folks are 0:41:17.160 --> 0:41:19.320 going to evangelize small medium sized business. 0:41:19.440 --> 0:41:21.320 You said there's never been a better time, But the key. 0:41:21.200 --> 0:41:22.200 Is what are you doing about it? 0:41:22.280 --> 0:41:22.480 Right? 0:41:22.520 --> 0:41:25.680 I mean, small medium sized business leads to employment. Employment 0:41:25.760 --> 0:41:28.560 is a good thing in any kind of politicians career. 0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:33.080 So you know, we're agnostic politically, but I'm not surprised 0:41:33.080 --> 0:41:36.000 that politicians talk a lot about SMBs. There is even 0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:39.000 lots of good policy, tax credit policy that have been 0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:43.600 created for SMBs. Again, them actually being able to access 0:41:43.680 --> 0:41:47.120 these different government programs has been the complexity historically. 0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:48.799 Okay, you say it's never been a better time to 0:41:49.080 --> 0:41:52.000 be running a smaller, medium sized business. What about a 0:41:52.040 --> 0:41:54.799 tech company based in Silicon Valley that's been valued at 0:41:55.000 --> 0:41:57.640 nearly ten billion dollars that's raised seven hundred million dollars, 0:41:57.840 --> 0:42:00.000 sounds in financing, sounds like you're coming. 0:42:00.000 --> 0:42:02.960 It sounds like well, I view all of those as byproducts. Right, 0:42:03.000 --> 0:42:05.360 If we can serve hundreds of thousands of businesses solve 0:42:05.400 --> 0:42:07.680 real pain in their life, we will grow and have 0:42:07.840 --> 0:42:10.520 higher evaluation. But that's not what we obsess over. But 0:42:10.760 --> 0:42:12.680 thirteen years in, I am really excited. I feel like 0:42:12.680 --> 0:42:15.600 we're still early in the journey. You know, we only 0:42:15.640 --> 0:42:18.279 serve seven percent of these companies. There's so much more 0:42:18.320 --> 0:42:18.560 to do. 0:42:18.719 --> 0:42:20.840 Well do you stay them with small and medium sized 0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:22.240 or do you go all the way. 0:42:22.680 --> 0:42:26.080 So we do have our foundation in small medium size. 0:42:26.160 --> 0:42:29.040 And I love to remind folks there's more dentist offices 0:42:29.120 --> 0:42:31.319 than tech startups. Right, I said that earlier. And so 0:42:31.680 --> 0:42:35.000 you know, we're only at six seven percent market share 0:42:35.400 --> 0:42:37.799 and a lot of tech companies historically just jump to 0:42:37.840 --> 0:42:41.440 mid market enterprise. We've built a great business serving small 0:42:41.440 --> 0:42:44.920 medium size. We're excited to reinforce that for many years 0:42:44.960 --> 0:42:45.239 to come. 0:42:45.320 --> 0:42:47.440 So you don't need to tap into you know, I 0:42:47.440 --> 0:42:49.439 think of you know, there's you guys, or there's something 0:42:49.440 --> 0:42:52.880 like an ADP. Right, you don't need to service the 0:42:52.880 --> 0:42:55.480 big publicly held companies or do you want to at 0:42:55.480 --> 0:42:55.880 some point. 0:42:56.000 --> 0:42:57.719 I mean, we want to solve pain wherever it is. 0:42:57.760 --> 0:42:59.520 But there's a lot of work to do for small 0:42:59.520 --> 0:43:01.680 medium size business. One thing I'll share, I mean ADP 0:43:01.719 --> 0:43:04.080 is one hundred billion dollars plus company into it as 0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:06.760 a company. We respect that also cares a lot about SMB. 0:43:07.760 --> 0:43:10.120 But you have close to twenty five percent of companies 0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:12.960 in the US today still doing payroll by hand on 0:43:13.080 --> 0:43:14.840 pen and paper, So there's a lot of real So 0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:16.960 there's a lot of fragmentation in a lot of greenfield. 0:43:17.600 --> 0:43:19.439 Have you you're based in Silicon Valley. Have you spent 0:43:19.480 --> 0:43:21.440 much time in New York in recent months? And my 0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:23.560 question is going somewhere we have an office here. 0:43:23.920 --> 0:43:24.680 Careful how you are? 0:43:24.800 --> 0:43:26.640 Yeah, we love New York. I love New York. 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:28.520 So have you ridden the subway much? 0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:30.560 I've rode the subway to this office. 0:43:30.600 --> 0:43:34.080 Did you see lots of ads for competitors to your company? 0:43:34.200 --> 0:43:36.279 Because sometimes I get in a subway car and I'm like, 0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:42.080 I've never heard of this competitor too. Gusto would be like, 0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:45.000 you know, it's not rippling, it's not deal, it's not 0:43:45.239 --> 0:43:47.680 just work. So I mean, these are all startups that 0:43:47.719 --> 0:43:49.799 are trying to do what you're trying to do. Yeah, 0:43:49.840 --> 0:43:50.600 they're everywhere. 0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:53.359 I mean, there's a huge opportunity here. So we are 0:43:53.400 --> 0:43:57.560 excited to compete, press our advantage, launch the best possible product, 0:43:57.960 --> 0:44:01.839 keep winning market share, keep winning wa wallet share. But yeah, 0:44:02.000 --> 0:44:03.799 I would be a shock if there wasn't competition when 0:44:03.840 --> 0:44:06.440 you have a big market opportunity. I think it is 0:44:06.560 --> 0:44:09.400 hard to build what we've built from scratch, so I 0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:11.960 think people take different approaches to it. But you know, 0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:13.320 we feel like we have a leading position and we 0:44:13.320 --> 0:44:14.080 want to maintain that. 0:44:14.200 --> 0:44:15.000 So do you go public? 0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:18.640 At some point we'll be a public company eventually, it's 0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:20.640 a milestone in the journey. But we're going to be 0:44:20.640 --> 0:44:23.200 building Gusta for many decades. And the thing I anchor 0:44:23.280 --> 0:44:25.799 on more is we'll be an independent company for many, 0:44:25.880 --> 0:44:28.160 many decades to come. It goes to why we started 0:44:28.160 --> 0:44:29.120 the business in the first place. 0:44:29.360 --> 0:44:31.480 So, but no pressure to do so. Right, you're finding 0:44:31.480 --> 0:44:34.200 the funding that you need and it provides you a 0:44:34.239 --> 0:44:36.280 certain luxury right in terms of building it out. 0:44:36.280 --> 0:44:39.120 Well, Gusto at this scale, you know, we're free cushilal 0:44:39.200 --> 0:44:42.000 positive have been for several quarters. We can sell fun, 0:44:42.160 --> 0:44:44.920 be aggressive, on R and D. Launch new products in 0:44:44.960 --> 0:44:47.960 the time tracking space, launch new products in the international 0:44:48.000 --> 0:44:51.680 hiring space, launch new products in the Gusto embedded payroll space. 0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:54.719 We can talk about that too. But I you know, 0:44:55.080 --> 0:44:59.000 again just there's a huge, huge market opportunity here, and 0:44:59.080 --> 0:45:01.440 you know the beauty of a private company, there's some 0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:02.399 positives as well. 0:45:02.440 --> 0:45:04.480 We work for a private company in case you didn't notice, 0:45:04.480 --> 0:45:06.240 and we understand the benefits. 0:45:07.640 --> 0:45:11.400 I wonder about different opportunities that are sort of adjacent 0:45:11.480 --> 0:45:14.600 to the core business here, the idea of catering to 0:45:15.040 --> 0:45:17.480 specific types of businesses and what you've done in recent 0:45:17.560 --> 0:45:21.880 years to make it easier for a small gym, for example, 0:45:22.200 --> 0:45:25.480 or for some sort of hair salon or appointment bookings 0:45:25.480 --> 0:45:28.359 like getting into the space that isn't necessarily what you're 0:45:28.400 --> 0:45:30.640 known for, but are sort of add ons for the 0:45:30.640 --> 0:45:31.320 core business. 0:45:32.080 --> 0:45:35.359 So first it comes with customer you know, pull right, 0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:38.240 they're asking for us to help with these additional product areas. 0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:40.560 And it could be health benefits, it could be tax credits, 0:45:40.600 --> 0:45:43.719 it could be you know, business insurance, workers comp These 0:45:43.719 --> 0:45:46.759 are all adjacent pain points and again, you know, this 0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:49.520 is where we can be a conduit for big companies 0:45:49.560 --> 0:45:52.600 I've had access to what a specialists and resources, whether 0:45:52.640 --> 0:45:55.239 it's cloud, paperless, mobile, or AI as kind of a 0:45:55.280 --> 0:45:57.880 more recent technology tailwind, we are going to be the 0:45:57.920 --> 0:46:01.440 ones to bring those benefits to small medium sized business. 0:46:01.480 --> 0:46:04.240 So yeah, we have a big roadmap of product apps 0:46:04.280 --> 0:46:07.479 to kind of go launch, bring live, lots of work ahead. 0:46:07.800 --> 0:46:09.960 What exactly does embedding payroll mean? 0:46:10.520 --> 0:46:13.320 So think of this as if you're familiar with Stripe 0:46:13.360 --> 0:46:17.759 and embedded payments basically analogous but for payroll. So one 0:46:17.800 --> 0:46:20.960 of our partners is Chase. They have a product called 0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:24.359 Chase Payroll, but it is powered by Gusto. So if 0:46:24.360 --> 0:46:28.520 you're a Chase customer, a business customer, you will have 0:46:28.560 --> 0:46:33.000 the chance to go add payroll to your experience inside Chase. 0:46:33.840 --> 0:46:36.240 But then Chase didn't have to build it all from scratch. 0:46:36.440 --> 0:46:40.719 So it's another avenue for us to reach SMBs where 0:46:40.760 --> 0:46:43.640 they are already versus what we're doing already on the 0:46:43.680 --> 0:46:44.360 Gusto dot. 0:46:44.200 --> 0:46:46.120 Com sid Can you do that with multiple banks? 0:46:46.239 --> 0:46:48.840 Yes, we have dozens of partners. Yeah, not just Chase, 0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:52.919 and we're excited about this big trend. Embedded payroll didn't 0:46:52.960 --> 0:46:55.000 exist till a couple of years ago, and again we 0:46:55.000 --> 0:46:57.399 think it's just a very logical product for any SMB 0:46:57.480 --> 0:46:58.680 platform out there to launch live. 0:46:58.760 --> 0:47:01.080 What's the hard part? You said pretty optimistic, which is great, 0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:04.600 But what's the thing that you still feel like you 0:47:04.600 --> 0:47:05.360 have a nut to crack? 0:47:06.239 --> 0:47:09.720 Oh, broadly speaking, I mean how to keep improving, running 0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:13.319 a great company, attracting great talent. You know, thirteen years in, 0:47:13.400 --> 0:47:16.320 I feel like we're early. Everything has to keep changing, 0:47:16.360 --> 0:47:19.000 evolving and getting better. We're doing a lot of work 0:47:19.040 --> 0:47:22.120 to kind of revamp our products, suite our underlying data model. 0:47:22.320 --> 0:47:23.040 I could go on and. 0:47:23.040 --> 0:47:26.600 On thirty seconds. International opportunity. You mentioned international, How tough 0:47:26.640 --> 0:47:26.880 is that? 0:47:27.320 --> 0:47:30.400 So on the employer side, you know, the US is 0:47:30.440 --> 0:47:32.800 like fifty countries. We are US focused today, but we 0:47:32.840 --> 0:47:34.239 feel like we did a fair bit of work to 0:47:34.280 --> 0:47:37.120 expand across the country. It's not if, but when we 0:47:37.160 --> 0:47:39.640 would serve international employers, but right now our focus is 0:47:39.680 --> 0:47:40.279 on US pace. 0:47:40.320 --> 0:47:42.279 So so if you are a small business owner who 0:47:42.280 --> 0:47:44.719 has employees outside of the US, you can't be so you. 0:47:44.640 --> 0:47:46.640 Can use guessto. So I'm talking about employer. On the 0:47:46.640 --> 0:47:50.120 employee side, you can now hire in over one hundred countries. 0:47:50.120 --> 0:47:52.719 On the contractor front and on the EO R side 0:47:52.719 --> 0:47:54.200 you can also hire in over ten countries. 0:47:54.239 --> 0:47:54.600 More to come. 0:47:54.680 --> 0:47:57.560 Pretty cool stuff. Great, well, stay in touch. Listen how 0:47:57.600 --> 0:48:00.960 things are going. Really appreciate John Josh Reeves, excuse me, 0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:04.239 co founder and chief executive Officer. I said, gusto, but 0:48:04.280 --> 0:48:09.040 it's gusta. It's giving it a little jenning us Here 0:48:09.040 --> 0:48:10.480 in our Bloemberger studio. 0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:18.880 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:48:18.920 --> 0:48:22.160 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Easter Listen 0:48:22.200 --> 0:48:24.360 on Apple card Play and then brought auto with a 0:48:24.400 --> 0:48:27.000 Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on. 0:48:26.880 --> 0:48:30.920 YouTube Plenty ahead in our second hour of the weekend 0:48:31.040 --> 0:48:34.840 edition of Bloomberg Business Week, including free speech, is it really? 0:48:35.239 --> 0:48:38.240 Some would argue no. Others would argue that what matters 0:48:38.360 --> 0:48:40.600 is fearless speech. It's all in a new book. 0:48:40.800 --> 0:48:43.279 Speaking of books, how about one that takes a look 0:48:43.360 --> 0:48:45.239 at what the leader of the free world does with 0:48:45.360 --> 0:48:47.360 his own money. We're going to hear from the author 0:48:47.400 --> 0:48:50.080 of all the President's Money. Shortly, it's his money, because 0:48:50.120 --> 0:48:51.799 you know, there hasn't been anything all the President's men, 0:48:51.840 --> 0:48:52.640 all the President's money. 0:48:52.640 --> 0:48:55.280 I love how that works, but there's no female president, 0:48:55.360 --> 0:48:57.840 so of course you can just use his Yeah, good points. 0:48:59.080 --> 0:49:01.520 We shall see see. Plus, we wrap up the hour 0:49:01.640 --> 0:49:05.160 with the Regenerative Kitchen and some thoughts on how plant 0:49:05.200 --> 0:49:10.080 based recipes and sustainable practices to nourish ourselves and the planet. 0:49:10.160 --> 0:49:13.000 Yum yum. Yeah, yeah, good recipes. 0:49:13.600 --> 0:49:14.200 I love it all. 0:49:14.360 --> 0:49:15.479 Yeah, it's food. 0:49:15.520 --> 0:49:15.920 I love it. 0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:17.400 Surprise, surprise. 0:49:17.520 --> 0:49:19.880 Freedom of speech may be protected in the US by 0:49:19.880 --> 0:49:22.080 the First Amendment, but it's still something that's the focus 0:49:22.080 --> 0:49:24.880 of much attention thanks to the proliferation of misinformation on 0:49:24.920 --> 0:49:28.239 digital platforms. What's been happening on college campuses in the 0:49:28.239 --> 0:49:31.000 wake of the Israel Hamas war and what we regularly 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:32.560 hear from politicians. 0:49:32.120 --> 0:49:35.040 Yeah, that's right. State and federal officials, for example, already 0:49:35.040 --> 0:49:38.320 grappling with back to back hurricanes that have killed hundreds 0:49:38.320 --> 0:49:42.120 across the Southeast, have been dealing with another disaster related threat. 0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:46.320 Disinformation over their relief efforts and the cause of the storm. 0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:49.640 Unbelievable the world we are living in. Conspiracy theories and 0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:53.880 hate speech targeting the government's storm response erupted across social media, 0:49:53.960 --> 0:49:57.560 especially on X after Hurricane Helene devastated the region, with 0:49:57.640 --> 0:50:00.200 former President Donald Trump and ex owner Elon mush Us 0:50:00.600 --> 0:50:03.120 amplifying unverified allegations. 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:06.560 It's a world. Our next guest understands well. Mary Anne 0:50:06.560 --> 0:50:09.840 Franks is an author and a professor at George Washington University. 0:50:10.120 --> 0:50:12.720 She's got a new book out. It's called Fearless Speech, 0:50:13.080 --> 0:50:14.880 Breaking Free from the First Amendment. 0:50:15.120 --> 0:50:20.720 We have this incredibly narrow, very legalistic, really reductionist, largely 0:50:20.719 --> 0:50:24.480 incoherent idea about what freedom of speech is. That's based 0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:28.040 on perceptions and misperceptions of a legal doctrine, of course, 0:50:28.080 --> 0:50:30.759 the First Amendment, And when we really think about what 0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:33.960 is important in a democracy, the kinds of hard questions 0:50:33.960 --> 0:50:36.560 we have to ask about what kinds of speech should 0:50:36.560 --> 0:50:39.000 be promoted and what kinds of speech should be punished. 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:40.080 We need a much. 0:50:40.040 --> 0:50:43.120 Richer and more nuanced understanding of speech than you can 0:50:43.160 --> 0:50:44.560 get from that legal doctrine. 0:50:44.960 --> 0:50:47.720 All right, So what is your definition of freedom of speech? 0:50:48.200 --> 0:50:51.000 The definition I would use is to say the most 0:50:51.000 --> 0:50:54.840 important thing for democracy, that is the most vital kinds 0:50:54.880 --> 0:50:56.640 of speech that you would want to protect in a 0:50:56.680 --> 0:50:59.520 democracy are going to be those kinds of speech that 0:50:59.560 --> 0:51:04.160 the ancient Greeks referred to as parasia. Fearless speech, and 0:51:04.200 --> 0:51:07.560 the way that they described that really essential form of 0:51:07.719 --> 0:51:10.040 speech was that you had to be someone who was 0:51:10.080 --> 0:51:14.239 speaking truly as their own identity, so not trying to 0:51:14.280 --> 0:51:17.480 cover themselves in some kind of performance or try to 0:51:17.520 --> 0:51:20.840 disavow some distance between them and their speech. And you 0:51:20.920 --> 0:51:24.560 had to speak courageously in a critical way about something 0:51:24.719 --> 0:51:27.680 or someone who was more powerful than you. And the 0:51:27.800 --> 0:51:29.719 risk that you would be taking and speaking that kind 0:51:29.760 --> 0:51:32.560 of truth would be to yourself as opposed to trying 0:51:32.560 --> 0:51:33.600 to cause harm to others. 0:51:34.080 --> 0:51:36.000 You know, you say this, and what actually comes to 0:51:36.040 --> 0:51:39.040 mind is the way that Senator jd Vance has answered 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:42.279 the question about whether or not Donald Trump won the 0:51:42.320 --> 0:51:44.800 twenty twenty election. He's done it over and over again, 0:51:45.200 --> 0:51:47.799 and his answer was always the same. I'm focused on 0:51:47.840 --> 0:51:51.160 the future, not necessarily answering the question. He's focused on 0:51:51.200 --> 0:51:54.440 censorship and what tech platforms did when it comes to censorship. 0:51:55.000 --> 0:51:57.000 Is he doing fearless speech there. 0:51:57.360 --> 0:51:59.879 He's definitely not doing fearless speech there. And he's also 0:52:00.080 --> 0:52:03.000 misstating what censorship is. And this is one of the 0:52:03.040 --> 0:52:06.239 reasons why I wrote the book, is that for all 0:52:06.320 --> 0:52:08.160 the problems and I do highlight a lot of the 0:52:08.200 --> 0:52:10.960 problems with the First Amendment doctrine, we still want to 0:52:10.960 --> 0:52:13.279 be accurate about what it actually says. And what it's 0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:16.880 very clear about is that censorship means when the government 0:52:16.960 --> 0:52:20.000 is trying to make private individuals say something they don't 0:52:20.000 --> 0:52:22.239 want to say, or is punishing them for something that 0:52:22.280 --> 0:52:25.880 they've said. Social media platforms making decisions about what they 0:52:25.920 --> 0:52:28.680 want on their platform or not is not censorship. 0:52:28.719 --> 0:52:30.360 It does not violate the First Amendment. 0:52:30.719 --> 0:52:32.840 I think he does know that, and he's trying deliberately 0:52:32.920 --> 0:52:35.640 to create misinformation about the First Amendment itself. 0:52:36.560 --> 0:52:40.400 So when it comes to policing platforms, then what is 0:52:40.440 --> 0:52:44.200 your thoughts on social media? Is it media? Is it playful? 0:52:44.440 --> 0:52:47.080 We know it's dangerous, but it's also a place where 0:52:47.120 --> 0:52:49.759 a lot of folks get their news, something that we 0:52:49.800 --> 0:52:52.960 are involved in on a daily basis. Does it need 0:52:53.000 --> 0:52:55.879 to be policed? And I'm just curious how you think 0:52:55.880 --> 0:52:56.319 about that. 0:52:56.560 --> 0:52:58.759 Well, it depends a lot on what the outcomes are 0:52:58.880 --> 0:53:02.200 that we want from those platform When we say we 0:53:02.239 --> 0:53:04.919 go there for entertainment, we go there for news. If 0:53:04.920 --> 0:53:08.080 we care about those spaces in that way, then we 0:53:08.160 --> 0:53:10.200 need to have the kinds of rules or the kinds 0:53:10.200 --> 0:53:13.120 of standards or the kinds of design to make those 0:53:13.120 --> 0:53:16.240 outcomes happen, because that kind of speech doesn't just happen 0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:20.200 by itself. You don't get to good conversations, entertaining conversations, 0:53:20.600 --> 0:53:23.880 high value conversations, by just letting everybody do whatever they 0:53:23.920 --> 0:53:26.480 might want to do, because that isn't actually a free 0:53:26.480 --> 0:53:27.800 speech protective position. 0:53:28.200 --> 0:53:30.640 What you'll get is a bunch of chaos. You'll get 0:53:30.640 --> 0:53:31.600 a lot of people. 0:53:31.280 --> 0:53:36.839 Who are saying really provocative, stupid, uninformed, really outrageous things, 0:53:36.840 --> 0:53:39.520 and they will drown out everybody else. So if you 0:53:39.600 --> 0:53:42.560 want quality speech, if you want accurate speech, you have 0:53:42.680 --> 0:53:45.640 to have some kinds of standards in play. And every 0:53:45.719 --> 0:53:48.520 platform knows this because they all have standards in play. 0:53:48.800 --> 0:53:51.439 There are standards against spam, there are standards against all 0:53:51.520 --> 0:53:55.000 kinds of rules, of privacy, regulations, any number of things 0:53:55.000 --> 0:53:58.040 that every platform is already engaged in. The question is 0:53:58.080 --> 0:54:00.840 are you going to wield that power wisely and are 0:54:00.920 --> 0:54:02.960 you going to do it in a transparent way? And 0:54:03.040 --> 0:54:05.319 are you going to take responsibility for the things you 0:54:05.440 --> 0:54:06.960 leave up as well as for the things that you 0:54:07.000 --> 0:54:07.560 take down. 0:54:07.960 --> 0:54:10.280 I mean, we know how some platforms treat this stuff 0:54:10.320 --> 0:54:12.439 because of what's happened on X in the last couple 0:54:12.480 --> 0:54:15.120 of years. But I also think about incentives and the 0:54:15.120 --> 0:54:18.600 way that incentives could be misaligned. Right now, you can 0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:24.960 get paid on platforms by views, So your incentive is 0:54:25.000 --> 0:54:28.520 to create something that people will see. People see stuff. 0:54:28.840 --> 0:54:32.319 When the algorithm sees that people are interacting with it, 0:54:32.480 --> 0:54:36.000 leaving comments on it, reposting it, then it surfaces it 0:54:36.080 --> 0:54:40.120 in other people's feeds. Whether that's true or not, it 0:54:40.160 --> 0:54:44.120 doesn't seem like the system is designed to reward what 0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:45.720 you refer to as fearless speech. 0:54:46.120 --> 0:54:49.400 Definitely not, and that shouldn't be surprising because what we 0:54:49.520 --> 0:54:53.800 often forget, and partly because the tech industry and major 0:54:53.880 --> 0:54:56.239 players in the tech industry try to make us forget this, 0:54:56.760 --> 0:54:59.080 is that this isn't the public square, This isn't some 0:54:59.120 --> 0:55:03.160 sort of democracy experiment. This is a corporation that has 0:55:03.200 --> 0:55:05.760 a product and it's trying to sell you that product, 0:55:05.840 --> 0:55:08.280 and it's trying to tell you that what you're doing 0:55:08.320 --> 0:55:11.200 by speaking or posting or whatever it is, is freedom 0:55:11.200 --> 0:55:14.040 of speech. But all it is from the corporation's perspective 0:55:14.120 --> 0:55:17.520 is profit. And so the only real standard that is 0:55:17.560 --> 0:55:19.520 being used in those cases is what's going to make 0:55:19.560 --> 0:55:22.279 that company profit, And so, of course it's not going 0:55:22.320 --> 0:55:24.200 to align with democracy. Of course, it's not going to 0:55:24.239 --> 0:55:25.640 align with high quality content. 0:55:25.960 --> 0:55:26.839 It's not even going to have. 0:55:26.760 --> 0:55:31.040 The regular guardrails as you mentioned, of newspapers, radio stations, 0:55:31.160 --> 0:55:34.719 TV stations, all of whom have to take responsibility when 0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:38.160 there is false information on them. When you know that 0:55:38.160 --> 0:55:40.000 The New York Times can get sued, we know that 0:55:40.360 --> 0:55:43.360 Fox News can get sued if there's outright false statements 0:55:43.400 --> 0:55:46.800 being broadcast. So why is it that the tech industry 0:55:46.840 --> 0:55:49.160 gets this pass where they're allowed to do whatever they 0:55:49.160 --> 0:55:53.640 would like or do nothing, and allow disinformation, misinformation, truly 0:55:53.680 --> 0:55:57.520 harmful content to simply proliferate simply because it lines their pockets. 0:55:57.920 --> 0:56:01.759 You know, I'm curious about what you think about the 0:56:01.800 --> 0:56:05.520 protests that we've seen on universities and campuses over the 0:56:05.600 --> 0:56:07.520 last year or so as a result. 0:56:07.360 --> 0:56:10.600 Of you're at George Washington University School of Law. 0:56:10.760 --> 0:56:15.560 You are the Hamas attack on Israel and then obviously 0:56:15.880 --> 0:56:20.840 Israel's response, and so it felt like freedom of speech 0:56:21.000 --> 0:56:26.160 was certainly being questioned or maybe not allowed equally. So 0:56:26.920 --> 0:56:29.200 help us with that one, because that was certainly problematic. 0:56:29.239 --> 0:56:31.600 As we know, a lot of university heads are no 0:56:31.680 --> 0:56:35.000 longer there as a result. Walk us through your thinking 0:56:35.040 --> 0:56:37.720 about that and how it might apply. 0:56:38.160 --> 0:56:41.000 I think the first thing to note about that conflict, 0:56:41.440 --> 0:56:44.239 and I say conflict because it's ongoing right that this 0:56:44.280 --> 0:56:46.920 is some of the campuses are struggling with right now, 0:56:47.400 --> 0:56:49.799 is to say that this should be proof in the 0:56:49.800 --> 0:56:52.120 first instance, that the First Amendment doesn't. 0:56:51.840 --> 0:56:54.040 Help us here. It doesn't resolve these questions. 0:56:54.360 --> 0:56:56.319 You can invote free speech all you want, you can 0:56:56.360 --> 0:56:58.759 invoke the First Amendment, but it's not actually going to 0:56:58.800 --> 0:57:01.560 answer the question of what kind of community do you 0:57:01.600 --> 0:57:04.480 want to have at any given university and what are 0:57:04.520 --> 0:57:07.000 the kinds of threats to that kind of community that 0:57:07.040 --> 0:57:09.360 you should be focused on. And what I think was 0:57:09.400 --> 0:57:12.520 really tragic about so much of the demonstration activity that 0:57:12.640 --> 0:57:14.880 happened in the last few months and the responses by 0:57:15.000 --> 0:57:19.200 universities is that they in some ways looked over their 0:57:19.240 --> 0:57:22.880 own communities and were speaking to I think audiences that 0:57:22.960 --> 0:57:25.480 were more like members of Congress, or maybe the donors, 0:57:25.600 --> 0:57:29.160 or maybe the media, but they weren't speaking to their students. 0:57:29.200 --> 0:57:31.840 They weren't speaking to their own communities. 0:57:31.240 --> 0:57:34.560 And hearing what people were trying to communicate, and of 0:57:34.560 --> 0:57:37.840 course the things they're trying to communicate are controversial, they 0:57:37.840 --> 0:57:42.200 are complex, they can be misinterpreted, they can be rightly 0:57:42.200 --> 0:57:45.520 interpreted in ways that are maybe concerning. But what you 0:57:45.600 --> 0:57:48.640 really should have seen from these universities is some leadership 0:57:48.680 --> 0:57:52.040 about their own community and some grace and some generosity 0:57:52.120 --> 0:57:57.720 for the students as they struggle through incredibly complex, fraught issues. 0:57:58.000 --> 0:57:59.840 That's the kind of leadership that I really wish we had, 0:58:00.360 --> 0:58:04.200 as opposed to grandstanding for donors, members of Congress, and 0:58:04.240 --> 0:58:06.920 others who were trying to weaponize those demonstrations to make 0:58:06.960 --> 0:58:08.080 their own political points. 0:58:08.880 --> 0:58:13.160 The theme of burning is a big part of your book, 0:58:13.200 --> 0:58:18.680 Fearless Speech, Professor, burning crosses, burning women, burning books, burning 0:58:18.720 --> 0:58:21.640 down the public square, and then finally you conclude with 0:58:22.200 --> 0:58:26.480 choosing your own way to burn. Why is that omnipresent 0:58:26.560 --> 0:58:27.640 in your book For. 0:58:27.680 --> 0:58:30.720 Multiple reasons, But one of the main ones is the 0:58:31.040 --> 0:58:33.520 scene that I opened the introduction of the book with, 0:58:33.760 --> 0:58:37.760 which is the burning of the press. The newspaper, a 0:58:37.760 --> 0:58:40.600 newspaper called the Memphis Free Speech, and it was Ida 0:58:40.680 --> 0:58:44.400 Wells's newspaper, and it was burned at the ground after 0:58:44.680 --> 0:58:48.320 she published an editorial that she had written about the 0:58:48.360 --> 0:58:52.320 truth about lynching, and it was a moment where I thought, 0:58:52.720 --> 0:58:56.120 this is really a repeating theme throughout American history. We 0:58:56.280 --> 0:58:59.600 have this belief, this mythology about the First Amendment that 0:58:59.600 --> 0:59:03.680 wet radical speech and we protect dissidents. And then you 0:59:03.760 --> 0:59:06.520 look back to the people who have spoken out against slavery, 0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:08.840 You look back at the people who were speaking out 0:59:08.920 --> 0:59:10.440 against lynching, You. 0:59:10.400 --> 0:59:12.160 Look at the women who are fighting for the right 0:59:12.240 --> 0:59:12.720 to vote. 0:59:12.800 --> 0:59:15.400 You look at the moments now in terms of Black 0:59:15.440 --> 0:59:18.240 Lives Matter protests and the Me Too movements, and you 0:59:18.320 --> 0:59:21.439 see that time and time again, the mob has come 0:59:21.480 --> 0:59:23.200 for those individuals. 0:59:23.320 --> 0:59:26.439 They have suppressed that speech. It's been violently. 0:59:26.400 --> 0:59:29.040 Suppressed in a way that sometimes took the form of 0:59:29.560 --> 0:59:33.200 literal burning of newspapers, but sometimes took the form of 0:59:33.680 --> 0:59:38.240 incredibly onerous lawsuits or persecutions in other ways. So time 0:59:38.280 --> 0:59:42.000 and again, those who are trying to be most fearless 0:59:42.000 --> 0:59:45.000 in their speech have been suppressed. They have been violated, 0:59:45.000 --> 0:59:47.320 they've been assaulted. And that's really a theme that I 0:59:47.400 --> 0:59:48.920 wanted to emphasize in the book. 0:59:49.200 --> 0:59:52.480 You know, just in your intro to you know, you say, 0:59:52.520 --> 0:59:55.760 on fettered, free speeches does indeed exist, but only for 0:59:55.800 --> 0:59:59.360 some Americans today. In America, delusional stalkers have a First 0:59:59.360 --> 1:00:02.480 Amendment right now to terrorize their victims. Pornographers have a 1:00:02.520 --> 1:00:06.360 First Amendment right to glorify sexual violence. For profit businesses 1:00:06.360 --> 1:00:08.520 have a First Amendment right to deny services to gay 1:00:08.560 --> 1:00:11.800 people and to advertise this fact. Anti abortion ze let's 1:00:11.840 --> 1:00:14.320 have a First Amendment right to mislead pregnant women with 1:00:14.400 --> 1:00:17.240 fake pregnancy and clinics. It goes on and on and on. 1:00:17.640 --> 1:00:20.680 So it is interesting. So what's the answer. What's the 1:00:20.720 --> 1:00:21.440 way forward? 1:00:21.920 --> 1:00:23.840 I think we can, and I think it starts with 1:00:24.040 --> 1:00:27.000 acknowledging that we've never done it. I think it starts 1:00:27.000 --> 1:00:31.120 with acknowledging that this is our whole mythology about the 1:00:31.120 --> 1:00:34.840 First Amendment. The mythology about our country generally has always 1:00:34.880 --> 1:00:38.440 been at best and aspirational idea. It's never been a 1:00:38.480 --> 1:00:42.760 completed project. So for the First Amendment, specifically for the 1:00:42.880 --> 1:00:46.320 question of free speech, we really have to be confrontational 1:00:46.400 --> 1:00:49.680 about how throughout our history the First Amendment has not 1:00:50.080 --> 1:00:53.160 stood up for free expression, at least not for those 1:00:53.200 --> 1:00:56.760 who were speaking out against the most powerful parts of society. 1:00:57.200 --> 1:00:59.280 It has shown up for the people who are the 1:00:59.400 --> 1:01:02.520 enemies ways of democracy and of those who are trying 1:01:02.520 --> 1:01:06.320 to be egalitarian and progressive. So what we have to 1:01:06.320 --> 1:01:07.960 do first is we have to admit that we have 1:01:08.040 --> 1:01:11.720 to stop telling ourselves this bedtime story about the First 1:01:11.760 --> 1:01:15.040 Amendment that we've always protected free speech and acknowledge and 1:01:15.240 --> 1:01:17.880 really grapple with the fact that we haven't. We have 1:01:18.080 --> 1:01:22.200 chosen winners and losers for the First Amendment. The moment 1:01:22.240 --> 1:01:25.440 we admit that, then we can have an honest discussion 1:01:25.480 --> 1:01:29.440 about what belongs in that part of the First Amendment 1:01:29.440 --> 1:01:32.200 that says this should be most protected, and what belongs 1:01:32.240 --> 1:01:34.760 in that part that most of us would agree should 1:01:34.800 --> 1:01:38.200 be something that we're allowed to regulate. Fraud, if we 1:01:38.200 --> 1:01:40.800 think about defamation to some extent, if we think about 1:01:41.440 --> 1:01:44.000 the kind of food and drug labeling misinformation that you 1:01:44.080 --> 1:01:46.680 might work about, if there weren't any kinds of protocols 1:01:46.720 --> 1:01:50.680 for those kinds of issues. We need to think about 1:01:50.720 --> 1:01:52.880 and be honest about the fact that we've always made 1:01:52.880 --> 1:01:57.160 assessments about harm and speech and injury, and let's talk 1:01:57.160 --> 1:01:59.160 about how we can do that in the fairest, most 1:01:59.200 --> 1:02:02.200 transparent way and really think about the context that we're 1:02:02.240 --> 1:02:05.800 speaking in and care about the harm, not just abstract harms, 1:02:05.800 --> 1:02:08.280 but actual harms. Are the one we've been talking about 1:02:08.320 --> 1:02:10.720 all this time. That is, there are people who are 1:02:10.720 --> 1:02:11.840 going to die because. 1:02:11.640 --> 1:02:12.680 Of her Ria information. 1:02:12.800 --> 1:02:14.480 Let me ask you, so, then, is it the Supreme 1:02:14.520 --> 1:02:15.680 Court who figures that out? 1:02:15.920 --> 1:02:18.640 I wish I could say that we should have any 1:02:18.640 --> 1:02:20.560 confidence in the Supreme Court to do that. I don't 1:02:20.600 --> 1:02:22.880 think they're going to figure that out anytime soon, But 1:02:22.880 --> 1:02:25.720 that doesn't mean that the people can't figure these things out. 1:02:26.200 --> 1:02:29.919 The one takeaway here about the First Amendment being neither 1:02:30.000 --> 1:02:33.280 necessary nor sufficient for freedom of speech is that we 1:02:33.320 --> 1:02:35.880 can do free speech. We can do fearless speech without 1:02:35.920 --> 1:02:38.160 waiting on the Supreme Court, without waiting for the law 1:02:38.200 --> 1:02:41.960 to change. We can actually lift up, amplify, highlight those 1:02:41.960 --> 1:02:44.760 people who have taken those risks even though they had 1:02:44.800 --> 1:02:47.280 no protections, and we can make those people at the 1:02:47.280 --> 1:02:49.880 center of our discourse and we can model ourselves after them. 1:02:50.120 --> 1:02:53.560 Professor, what's the link between Americans trust in media or 1:02:53.560 --> 1:02:59.000 a lack thereof, and the misunderstanding of the First Amendment 1:02:59.280 --> 1:03:02.040 in your view? Thinking of a report from Gallup that 1:03:02.080 --> 1:03:04.840 came out just yesterday that says that trust in media 1:03:04.920 --> 1:03:08.200 remains at a low, with only thirty one percent of 1:03:08.240 --> 1:03:10.800 Americans expressing a quote great deal or fair amount of 1:03:10.800 --> 1:03:14.240 confidence that the media will report the news fully, accurately 1:03:14.520 --> 1:03:15.040 and fairly. 1:03:15.640 --> 1:03:18.280 I think it is a sign that we have at 1:03:18.360 --> 1:03:20.880 least two competing problems, or at least two problems that 1:03:20.880 --> 1:03:23.520 are contributing to this, and one is just a general 1:03:23.600 --> 1:03:27.400 lack of First Amendment literacy in our public right. We 1:03:27.400 --> 1:03:30.440 don't have really good education about what the First Amendment 1:03:30.480 --> 1:03:33.280 actually does and what it's supposed to protect because we're 1:03:33.320 --> 1:03:36.280 losing out on that clarity. The few parts of the 1:03:36.280 --> 1:03:38.800 First Moment that really are clear say that you've got 1:03:38.800 --> 1:03:40.800 to make sure that the government isn't trying to throttle 1:03:40.840 --> 1:03:42.760 the media. You've got to make sure that that members 1:03:42.760 --> 1:03:45.840 of Congress aren't trying to intimidate researchers. Those are the 1:03:45.880 --> 1:03:48.160 things that actually are quite clear and quite good about 1:03:48.200 --> 1:03:51.000 the First Amendment, And if we could get clarity on those, 1:03:51.440 --> 1:03:54.040 then we could understand why it's so frightening that the 1:03:54.080 --> 1:03:56.640 government is trying to take hold of media and social 1:03:56.680 --> 1:04:00.320 media in all the different ways. But that's partly lesson 1:04:00.360 --> 1:04:02.960 for the media real large too. Which is help educate 1:04:02.960 --> 1:04:05.520 the public about what the First Amendment does and doesn't do. 1:04:06.000 --> 1:04:08.640 What hope do you have that things change? 1:04:09.480 --> 1:04:12.800 I have hope that things can change because we are 1:04:12.880 --> 1:04:16.160 at a very dangerous moment in history. But we have 1:04:16.280 --> 1:04:19.360 had these kinds of moments before, and there have been 1:04:19.400 --> 1:04:22.840 people who have been willing to stand up to say 1:04:22.880 --> 1:04:25.760 the things that are really hard, to act in a 1:04:25.800 --> 1:04:28.320 way that is against their own self interest, and to 1:04:28.400 --> 1:04:31.000 try to rescue democracy and to make that promise of 1:04:31.040 --> 1:04:34.680 equality become a reality rather than just an empty promise. 1:04:34.760 --> 1:04:36.640 And so I do still have hope for that, because 1:04:36.640 --> 1:04:37.920 I still have hope in people. 1:04:38.200 --> 1:04:38.400 I know. 1:04:38.520 --> 1:04:40.240 No, you don't seem optimistic, Carol. 1:04:40.760 --> 1:04:43.440 Speaking of speech, I feel a little speechless because I 1:04:43.480 --> 1:04:46.840 think it's such a big discussion of our time right 1:04:46.960 --> 1:04:49.800 in terms of we talk so much about free speech, 1:04:49.840 --> 1:04:51.720 and that means people can say things that you don't 1:04:51.760 --> 1:04:56.040 agree with or can be uncomfortable. I don't know, though, 1:04:56.040 --> 1:04:57.680 if there's a line that I think you can cross 1:04:57.720 --> 1:05:01.480 obviously when it creates harm, is it should it still 1:05:01.520 --> 1:05:03.440 be protected? I guess I would say no. 1:05:03.640 --> 1:05:06.560 But yeah, I think the way that just the speed 1:05:06.560 --> 1:05:09.960 at which speech travels now m m is so fast 1:05:10.000 --> 1:05:14.880 because of the technology and velocity. Exactly Yeah, that's exactly right. 1:05:15.080 --> 1:05:18.640 Well, Marian gave us a lot to think about timely, certainly, 1:05:18.680 --> 1:05:22.160 as we you know, we're thinking in the middle, like 1:05:22.200 --> 1:05:24.120 in the thick of it, and try to be so 1:05:24.240 --> 1:05:27.439 careful about the information certainly that we talk about, right 1:05:27.480 --> 1:05:29.480 and so careful. But that's not the case everywhere in 1:05:29.520 --> 1:05:33.240 the world. Marion Frank's professor of an intellectual property technology 1:05:33.240 --> 1:05:36.040 civil rights law at George Washington University. Her new book 1:05:36.120 --> 1:05:39.000 Check it out, Feel a Speech Breaking Free from the 1:05:39.040 --> 1:05:39.800 First Amendment. 1:05:40.920 --> 1:05:41.680 This is FO. 1:05:45.280 --> 1:05:49.160 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 1:05:49.240 --> 1:05:52.439 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on applecar Play 1:05:52.480 --> 1:05:55.320 and Androyd Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can 1:05:55.360 --> 1:05:58.600 also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New 1:05:58.680 --> 1:06:02.320 York station, Just Say Alexa, playing Bloomberg eleven thirty. 1:06:03.600 --> 1:06:05.960 Who is in the White House sitting in the Oval 1:06:06.000 --> 1:06:10.760 Office will determine policies that potentially impact the money businesses 1:06:10.800 --> 1:06:14.520 have to invest or to hire workers. Those policies, too, 1:06:14.560 --> 1:06:16.960 will impact the money we all as citizens have in 1:06:17.000 --> 1:06:19.800 our own pockets, which kind of got us thinking about 1:06:19.880 --> 1:06:23.960 the experiences of past presidents and how they were managing 1:06:24.160 --> 1:06:26.760 their own money. Turns out there's a new book on 1:06:26.960 --> 1:06:27.320 just that. 1:06:27.640 --> 1:06:30.600 Megan Gorman wrote it. She's founding partner of the independent 1:06:30.640 --> 1:06:34.840 wealth advisory firm Checkers Financial Management. She's also a tax attorney. 1:06:35.120 --> 1:06:38.040 Her book All the President's Money, How the Men who 1:06:38.080 --> 1:06:40.320 governed America Governed their Money. 1:06:40.480 --> 1:06:43.560 She joined Bloomberg Daybreak Europe co host Stephen Carroll and 1:06:43.600 --> 1:06:46.600 me while we were at the Bloomberg Earthshot Prize Innovation 1:06:46.680 --> 1:06:49.880 Summit last month in New York City. We started by 1:06:49.920 --> 1:06:51.560 asking I write the book. 1:06:51.800 --> 1:06:54.040 So first of all, I've always loved history, like a 1:06:54.040 --> 1:06:57.760 lot of Americans, and I think it's always interesting to 1:06:57.960 --> 1:07:01.640 understand where the president's a lot like us, where they 1:07:01.680 --> 1:07:04.760 have their humanity and money is emotion, and this is 1:07:04.800 --> 1:07:08.480 a great way to look at presidents across American history 1:07:09.040 --> 1:07:11.680 in terms of how they feel about money, how they 1:07:11.760 --> 1:07:15.520 interact with money, and what were their money values. Now 1:07:15.560 --> 1:07:18.800 we are in an election year, so obviously you know 1:07:18.840 --> 1:07:22.520 the spotlight goes to both Donald Trump and Kamala Harris 1:07:22.520 --> 1:07:26.480 to figure out do their personal finances impact their policies? 1:07:26.960 --> 1:07:28.440 And I'd have to tell you it's not that it 1:07:28.520 --> 1:07:32.480 impacts their policies directly, right, Fiscal policy is thousands of 1:07:32.480 --> 1:07:35.160 people working on it. But what I would tell you 1:07:35.400 --> 1:07:39.680 is it's a lot about sometimes a reflection of things 1:07:39.680 --> 1:07:42.680 that are important to them. So for instance, with Trump 1:07:42.720 --> 1:07:44.880 and the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, you know, he 1:07:44.960 --> 1:07:47.600 increased the unified credit, the amount we can pass free 1:07:47.600 --> 1:07:49.960 of tax at our death to now in this year, 1:07:50.000 --> 1:07:53.280 it's thirteen point six million, very much a reflection of 1:07:53.320 --> 1:07:56.760 his values of generational wealth transfer. In contrast, when we 1:07:56.840 --> 1:08:00.440 carve into the current tax proposals by Kamala Harris, very 1:08:00.560 --> 1:08:02.920 much a focus on the middle class, and she's been 1:08:03.040 --> 1:08:04.880 very clear to all of us that she comes from 1:08:04.920 --> 1:08:07.840 a middle class background. So there's some correlation there that 1:08:07.880 --> 1:08:09.160 we can definitely see. 1:08:09.520 --> 1:08:13.640 What surprised you in doing this process? And I'm curious, 1:08:13.640 --> 1:08:15.200 did you get through all the presidents or how did 1:08:15.240 --> 1:08:16.120 you pick and choose? 1:08:16.439 --> 1:08:16.639 Yeah? 1:08:16.640 --> 1:08:17.200 I tried to. 1:08:17.360 --> 1:08:19.280 I got about thirty four in the book because the 1:08:19.280 --> 1:08:21.640 book sort of looks at the traits I saw my 1:08:21.840 --> 1:08:24.920 high net worth clients, right, and then tell you stories. 1:08:25.280 --> 1:08:28.000 So what I found really surprising is how quirky some 1:08:28.080 --> 1:08:29.040 of the presidents were. 1:08:29.280 --> 1:08:30.519 So I found letters that. 1:08:30.640 --> 1:08:33.400 LBJ wrote that basically said I was up at two 1:08:33.400 --> 1:08:36.160 am in the morning worried about money. And then in 1:08:36.200 --> 1:08:38.960 the next sentence he starts talking about buying a suit 1:08:39.240 --> 1:08:41.280 that would be like somebody today buying a four. 1:08:41.080 --> 1:08:42.040 Thousand dollars suit. 1:08:42.880 --> 1:08:45.960 Things like, you know, FDR forgetting to file his income 1:08:46.080 --> 1:08:49.519 tax returns because he lost the paperwork somewhere between Warm 1:08:49.560 --> 1:08:51.080 Springs and his house in New York. 1:08:51.360 --> 1:08:52.600 So really fun. 1:08:52.360 --> 1:08:56.040 Little things that made the presidents feel much more like 1:08:56.160 --> 1:08:57.080 like we are today. 1:08:57.920 --> 1:08:59.640 I love that you point out in the book that 1:08:59.720 --> 1:09:01.960 two questions that everyone asked you when you tell them 1:09:01.960 --> 1:09:04.719 that you were writing it. Who was the best with money? 1:09:04.840 --> 1:09:05.920 And who was the worst? 1:09:06.000 --> 1:09:06.560 Exactly? 1:09:06.800 --> 1:09:08.080 Let's start with who was the best? 1:09:08.160 --> 1:09:10.600 Okay, so you know the best people always means is 1:09:10.640 --> 1:09:12.880 that the richest, right, And I think the thing is 1:09:13.320 --> 1:09:16.240 wealth has a lot of connotations, so don't laugh. But 1:09:16.280 --> 1:09:19.919 I would tell you the best with money was probably 1:09:19.960 --> 1:09:23.360 Herbert Hoover, you know, grew up an orphan in Iowa, 1:09:23.880 --> 1:09:26.599 makes his way, you know, and learns how to budget 1:09:26.600 --> 1:09:28.960 as a child in order to get access to funds 1:09:29.000 --> 1:09:33.280 to have clothing and food and medicine, gets to Stanford 1:09:33.400 --> 1:09:37.599 goes to Stanford basically tuition free because he was in 1:09:37.640 --> 1:09:41.080 the first class at Stanford University, and then he takes 1:09:41.080 --> 1:09:43.720 his geology degree and through the use of grit and 1:09:43.720 --> 1:09:47.280 his budgeting, he ends up discovering gold mines in Australia. 1:09:47.680 --> 1:09:50.920 And so it's really important to note that as incredibly 1:09:50.960 --> 1:09:52.759 wealthy as he became, he. 1:09:52.560 --> 1:09:55.200 Was very, very charitable over the course of his life. 1:09:55.680 --> 1:09:57.960 I think the other president that we would call sort 1:09:57.960 --> 1:10:01.280 of the best with money is George Way Washington. And 1:10:01.400 --> 1:10:03.240 you know, over the course of his life he built 1:10:03.240 --> 1:10:07.719 immense wealth through you know, acquiring land and by doing 1:10:07.760 --> 1:10:09.799 something that a lot of other presidents did. 1:10:09.640 --> 1:10:12.280 To make money by marrying up Martha. 1:10:12.400 --> 1:10:14.840 Washington had a lot more money than George and so 1:10:14.920 --> 1:10:17.840 it helped him with his net worth by marrying her. 1:10:18.360 --> 1:10:20.559 So I think the thing about both of them is 1:10:20.640 --> 1:10:24.479 they both worked really hard, really utilized the skills that 1:10:24.520 --> 1:10:27.960 they had to build wealth. The one caveat is, and 1:10:28.000 --> 1:10:30.240 we always have to keep this in mind, is Washington 1:10:30.439 --> 1:10:33.120 was a slaveholder. When it comes to the worst, I'll 1:10:33.160 --> 1:10:36.679 tell you, Thomas Jefferson, do not take money advice from him. 1:10:37.040 --> 1:10:41.720 He was incredibly illiquid, not good at budgeting. Really just 1:10:41.840 --> 1:10:45.000 focused on living a fabulous life. I mean, you wanted 1:10:45.040 --> 1:10:47.120 to go to his dinner parties, but you did not 1:10:47.520 --> 1:10:49.800 want to be there when the bills came. And so 1:10:50.000 --> 1:10:52.439 he lived this very big life, didn't have the money. 1:10:52.800 --> 1:10:54.080 And I'll tell you at the end of. 1:10:54.040 --> 1:10:56.719 His life, the last letter he writes is this beautiful 1:10:56.760 --> 1:11:00.280 treatise and democracy. The second last to last life he 1:11:00.320 --> 1:11:02.599 writes in his life is to try to buy wine 1:11:02.640 --> 1:11:04.640 on credit because he just didn't have the money to 1:11:04.680 --> 1:11:07.840 pay for it. And so that's why Thomas Jeffernerson just 1:11:07.920 --> 1:11:11.400 struggled so much with managing his money. 1:11:11.600 --> 1:11:14.080 So be a Washington, not a Jefferson. 1:11:15.080 --> 1:11:18.639 I think people might be surprised to that. Abraham Lincoln 1:11:19.000 --> 1:11:22.599 was one of the wealthiest presidents of his era. Walk 1:11:22.680 --> 1:11:23.160 us through that. 1:11:23.439 --> 1:11:26.800 Yeah, So Lincoln grew up poor, made a ton of 1:11:26.840 --> 1:11:30.640 mistakes growing up right, would start businesses, they fail, But 1:11:30.960 --> 1:11:32.800 he finally gets to the point where he studies, he 1:11:32.840 --> 1:11:35.840 becomes a lawyer, and he does what Washington did. He 1:11:35.920 --> 1:11:39.519 married up. So Mary Todd was a wealthier woman than. 1:11:39.479 --> 1:11:39.960 He he was. 1:11:40.439 --> 1:11:43.320 So between his law career and Mary Todd's family, he 1:11:43.360 --> 1:11:44.479 does incredibly well. 1:11:44.840 --> 1:11:47.439 And when you go to Springfield, Illinois. What's striking is 1:11:47.479 --> 1:11:48.840 he has the best house in town. 1:11:49.560 --> 1:11:53.240 But Lincoln really made money when he became president because 1:11:53.280 --> 1:11:56.480 he rented out his house in Springfield, and every paycheck 1:11:56.760 --> 1:11:58.679 he would save half of it and put it into 1:11:58.720 --> 1:12:01.479 treasury bonds and try to three notes that were paying 1:12:01.520 --> 1:12:04.639 six and seven percent to finance the war. And so 1:12:04.680 --> 1:12:07.280 by the time he passed away, he had a net 1:12:07.320 --> 1:12:10.240 worth of eighty five thousand. Doesn't sound like much to 1:12:10.360 --> 1:12:13.519 us today, but really it's about two million dollars in 1:12:13.560 --> 1:12:17.200 today's money. But again, Lincoln's one of those ones. He 1:12:17.280 --> 1:12:20.360 did make some mistakes, died without an estate plan, and 1:12:20.400 --> 1:12:22.280 the family had to have the Chief Justice of the 1:12:22.320 --> 1:12:26.360 United States come in and administer the estate. So did 1:12:26.400 --> 1:12:28.599 some good stuff, but struggled with some other issues. 1:12:29.240 --> 1:12:32.320 Megan, talk us through. I really enjoyed the story that 1:12:32.360 --> 1:12:34.839 you said you told in the book about Joe Biden 1:12:34.960 --> 1:12:38.120 and house hunting, and that's about Joe Biden's relationship with property. 1:12:38.280 --> 1:12:38.479 Yeah. 1:12:38.520 --> 1:12:40.719 Well, first of all, we have to remember with Joe Biden, 1:12:40.840 --> 1:12:42.120 this is a guy who grew up with not a 1:12:42.120 --> 1:12:44.320 lot of money and early in his life had a 1:12:44.439 --> 1:12:48.600 very traumatic moment with his wife passing away, and so 1:12:48.760 --> 1:12:52.080 as a result, when you deal with trauma, you want 1:12:52.080 --> 1:12:54.320 to be sort of slowing down your thinking. 1:12:54.840 --> 1:12:56.559 But Joe Biden loves real estate. 1:12:56.640 --> 1:12:56.760 Right. 1:12:56.800 --> 1:12:58.640 We all know he has the house in Rehoboth, but 1:12:58.720 --> 1:13:02.240 he fell in love with this very big house in Wilmington, Delaware, 1:13:02.640 --> 1:13:04.840 and it was a house that he should never have 1:13:04.920 --> 1:13:07.960 bought on a senator salary, and it was an old 1:13:08.040 --> 1:13:11.000 DuPont estate was falling apart and he was able to 1:13:11.040 --> 1:13:13.920 buy the house, but he didn't have the cash flow 1:13:13.960 --> 1:13:16.559 to keep it up, so he would do crazy things 1:13:16.640 --> 1:13:19.439 like sell off pieces of the land or only fix 1:13:19.520 --> 1:13:22.360 up certain parts. And so this house was sort of 1:13:22.400 --> 1:13:24.439 it was sort of like an episode of the Money Pit, 1:13:25.000 --> 1:13:27.880 and it was something he really really loved because he 1:13:27.920 --> 1:13:30.880 loved this idea of what the house represented, but he 1:13:30.960 --> 1:13:33.639 really just didn't have the liquidity. And I think this 1:13:33.720 --> 1:13:37.800 is something that's relatable to all Americans, right. We all 1:13:37.840 --> 1:13:40.280 struggle at times to have assets that we might not 1:13:40.360 --> 1:13:42.240 have the liquidity to manage. 1:13:42.479 --> 1:13:44.919 So Biden is not someone you really want to emulate. 1:13:44.960 --> 1:13:47.240 You want to look at him and go gush, really 1:13:47.360 --> 1:13:51.080 think through how you make financial decisions and what will 1:13:51.080 --> 1:13:54.879 happen five, ten, fifteen years from now based on that decision. 1:13:55.520 --> 1:13:58.439 All right, well we're staying with kind of current presidents 1:13:58.560 --> 1:14:01.360 or recent presidents. How about the Clinton's. Take us to 1:14:01.360 --> 1:14:01.960 Bill and Hillary. 1:14:02.120 --> 1:14:05.040 Yeah, Bill and Hillary Clinton, you know, incredibly smart people, 1:14:05.120 --> 1:14:08.639 but early on in their lives, they had an opportunity 1:14:08.720 --> 1:14:11.599 to invest in something called Whitewater. And anybody over the 1:14:11.600 --> 1:14:15.519 age of forty remembers Whitewater, right, So, but Whitewater started 1:14:15.560 --> 1:14:19.200 out pretty innocently. If I showed you a picture of Whitewater. 1:14:19.640 --> 1:14:22.160 It was pitched to them to be a retirement community 1:14:22.200 --> 1:14:24.000 that people would be able to build houses on, and 1:14:24.040 --> 1:14:27.640 it was beautiful. And when they were pitched this investment, 1:14:28.200 --> 1:14:32.080 they made a mistake that most people do because they're 1:14:32.120 --> 1:14:35.559 afraid of looking foolish. They didn't do due diligence, they 1:14:35.560 --> 1:14:38.720 didn't ask a lot of questions, and they basically got 1:14:38.760 --> 1:14:42.479 themselves into an investment where really, if you had dig 1:14:42.560 --> 1:14:45.360 dug into it, you would have realized this was also 1:14:45.400 --> 1:14:46.760 going to be a bit of a money pit and 1:14:46.800 --> 1:14:48.439 you were going to have to keep adding money in 1:14:48.479 --> 1:14:51.160 because there was no septic there was no electricity on 1:14:51.240 --> 1:14:53.840 this land, and so the Clintons made a series of 1:14:53.880 --> 1:14:54.840 mistakes with this. 1:14:55.320 --> 1:14:57.320 Now what's nice is we still get there. 1:14:57.920 --> 1:14:59.880 Up till twenty sixteen, we could still see their f 1:15:00.000 --> 1:15:02.760 financial disclosures. I think one of the nice things to 1:15:02.760 --> 1:15:05.840 say about them today is they've really become quite organized 1:15:05.880 --> 1:15:09.080 with their finances. You definitely see a state planning in place. 1:15:09.120 --> 1:15:12.360 There's an irrevocable life insurance trust on Bill Clinton. They 1:15:12.400 --> 1:15:15.200 tend to invest in index funds, so they eventually learn 1:15:15.280 --> 1:15:18.680 their lesson. But the takeaway with the Clintons is, you know, 1:15:18.800 --> 1:15:21.880 really do due diligence, ask a lot of questions about 1:15:21.880 --> 1:15:23.920 your investments before you put your money to work. 1:15:24.360 --> 1:15:26.960 What did you learn from researching Donald Trump's finances? 1:15:28.560 --> 1:15:30.360 That could be a whole book all itself. 1:15:30.800 --> 1:15:33.400 You know, Look, I think the thing about Donald Trump 1:15:33.600 --> 1:15:36.479 is you're dealing with generational wealth transfer. 1:15:36.640 --> 1:15:36.840 Right. 1:15:37.120 --> 1:15:40.720 He's generation two. He inherited four hundred million from generation one. 1:15:41.120 --> 1:15:42.880 His goal is really to get the money down to 1:15:43.000 --> 1:15:45.880 generation four and five. So when you have someone with 1:15:45.960 --> 1:15:48.439 that mindset, and you have someone who is willing to 1:15:48.479 --> 1:15:52.120 take risk and really push the envelope, you know, what 1:15:52.200 --> 1:15:54.600 you get is a lot of estate planning techniques that 1:15:54.640 --> 1:15:58.080 are technically correct that the technique itself is a lot 1:15:58.120 --> 1:16:00.400 at something a lot of high net worth American use, 1:16:00.840 --> 1:16:03.840 but he takes it to such an extreme level that 1:16:03.840 --> 1:16:06.679 that's where you start to have challenges. I would also 1:16:06.760 --> 1:16:09.360 say with Donald Trump, he also reminds me of another 1:16:09.400 --> 1:16:12.640 New Yorker who was incredibly aggressive with real estate, and 1:16:12.680 --> 1:16:15.639 that was Martin Van Buren. And so Martin van Buren 1:16:15.800 --> 1:16:19.840 was also someone who became an attorney, very poor background, 1:16:20.040 --> 1:16:23.320 becomes an attorney and starts to learn how to navigate 1:16:23.360 --> 1:16:27.040 the real estate market so he can aggressively buy land 1:16:27.240 --> 1:16:30.960 from people. So I would tell you Trump is someone 1:16:31.000 --> 1:16:33.920 you just have to watch because of their risk and 1:16:33.960 --> 1:16:36.120 the fact that they're willing to push the envelope. 1:16:36.200 --> 1:16:39.000 I still have thinking about the role of women and 1:16:39.040 --> 1:16:41.559 the dowries and the importance in helping out some of 1:16:41.640 --> 1:16:45.719 the presidents are thanks to Megan Gorman, she's founding partner 1:16:46.000 --> 1:16:49.200 of the independent wealth advisory firm in San Francisco, Techer's 1:16:49.200 --> 1:16:52.400 Financial Management. Her book All the President's Money, How the 1:16:52.400 --> 1:17:05.760 Men who governed America governed their Moneyting. 1:17:00.320 --> 1:17:03.839 To the Bloomberg Business Week podcast, catch us live weekday 1:17:03.880 --> 1:17:06.840 afternoons from two to five pm. Easter listen on Apple 1:17:06.880 --> 1:17:09.479 car Play and and Brout Auto with a Bloomberg Business 1:17:09.520 --> 1:17:12.320 act or watch us live on YouTube. 1:17:12.720 --> 1:17:15.040 Earlier this year, Carol and I spoke to Rebecca and 1:17:15.120 --> 1:17:18.639 Josh Tickle, the filmmakers behind the documentary Common Ground. It's 1:17:18.720 --> 1:17:22.200 all about the regenerative movement in farming. It's the idea, Carol, 1:17:22.280 --> 1:17:25.400 that soil health is everything, and food production and industrial 1:17:25.439 --> 1:17:29.679 farming wreak havoc on the environment. Regenerative farming instead undoes 1:17:29.720 --> 1:17:31.800 the damage that's been done for generations. 1:17:31.960 --> 1:17:35.559 Regenerative farming is something Camilla Marcus has focused on for years. 1:17:35.600 --> 1:17:38.479 She is a chef and founder of Westbourne. It was 1:17:38.479 --> 1:17:41.639 the first certified zero waste restaurant in New York City. 1:17:42.120 --> 1:17:44.479 It's now an online foods business that has the goal 1:17:44.560 --> 1:17:47.160 to quote send nothing to the landfill. 1:17:47.439 --> 1:17:49.680 Camilla also has a new cookbook out. It's called My 1:17:49.800 --> 1:17:53.719 Regenerative Kitchen, Plant based recipes and sustainable Practices to nourish 1:17:53.760 --> 1:17:56.640 ourselves and the planet. We started by asking her to 1:17:56.920 --> 1:17:58.759 explain the regenerative movement. 1:17:59.120 --> 1:18:01.839 I really found the regena movement through my work in restaurants. 1:18:01.840 --> 1:18:04.559 I mean, I'm a professionally trained chef. I've worked for 1:18:04.640 --> 1:18:06.720 a bunch of different chefs and restaurant tours here in 1:18:06.760 --> 1:18:09.240 New York City. I had my own restaurant in Soho, 1:18:09.439 --> 1:18:11.639 And I think when you really dig into the supply chain, 1:18:12.160 --> 1:18:14.840 you're nothing without your farmers, Right, everything starts at the source. 1:18:14.840 --> 1:18:17.880 I would say, sustainability and food quality and flavor start 1:18:17.920 --> 1:18:20.200 with our ground. And I really think it was sort 1:18:20.240 --> 1:18:23.080 of starting in that world about fifteen years ago, meeting 1:18:23.120 --> 1:18:26.560 farmers and realizing the disconnect from who's shopping at a 1:18:26.600 --> 1:18:29.240 grocery store to what's happening at the earth, and how 1:18:29.320 --> 1:18:32.160 vitally important that system is. It's the only system that 1:18:32.200 --> 1:18:34.720 can pull down carbon in time for my generation that's 1:18:34.720 --> 1:18:37.280 obsessed with climate change. It sort of was this light 1:18:37.320 --> 1:18:40.120 bulb of why isn't every dollar and every effort that 1:18:40.160 --> 1:18:43.639 we have pouring into this system and into this massive 1:18:43.720 --> 1:18:46.840 land transition, and that's really our only hope to solve it, And. 1:18:46.840 --> 1:18:49.440 Yet industrialized farming still exists. 1:18:49.880 --> 1:18:51.519 We do a lot of things that aren't logical here 1:18:51.600 --> 1:18:52.160 in the States. 1:18:52.720 --> 1:18:54.840 Well, I am curious, like in your process of building 1:18:54.880 --> 1:18:57.240 your restaurant and just learning more about this that how 1:18:57.439 --> 1:19:00.479 entrenched it is and how difficult it is to shift 1:19:00.560 --> 1:19:02.680 to more regenerative farming. Can we do it? Like we 1:19:02.720 --> 1:19:05.639 talk about organic? I don't know, you know, it's still 1:19:05.960 --> 1:19:07.880 probably smaller, right like in. 1:19:07.840 --> 1:19:10.000 Terms of versus conventional Yeah. 1:19:10.040 --> 1:19:12.160 Like, so I'm just like, how do we get there? 1:19:12.400 --> 1:19:14.360 Because I feel like Chipotle was somebody who talked a 1:19:14.400 --> 1:19:16.800 lot about trying to do food production in a much 1:19:16.880 --> 1:19:20.960 much better way, in a regenerative way, years ago. So 1:19:21.000 --> 1:19:22.800 I'm just like, how do we get there? Can we 1:19:22.840 --> 1:19:23.200 get there? 1:19:23.520 --> 1:19:25.840 I think that's really the ethos of the book is 1:19:25.920 --> 1:19:28.639 if every single one of us made one decision today 1:19:28.760 --> 1:19:31.519 to do a regenerative practice in their home, whether that's 1:19:31.840 --> 1:19:34.680 buying a regenerative food at the grocery store, getting in 1:19:34.720 --> 1:19:37.599 touch with the regenerative farm. So many, especially now the internet, 1:19:37.680 --> 1:19:40.479 you can buy these products online direct, right, you know, 1:19:40.560 --> 1:19:42.800 direct from the source, cooking in a way that's a 1:19:42.840 --> 1:19:45.160 little bit more mindful of climate. If every single one 1:19:45.200 --> 1:19:48.160 of us did just one thing, Yeah, we could turn 1:19:48.160 --> 1:19:49.080 the system on its head. 1:19:49.120 --> 1:19:50.680 Am I moving the needle by composting? 1:19:50.960 --> 1:19:51.240 Yes? 1:19:51.640 --> 1:19:52.800 Really drastically. 1:19:53.040 --> 1:19:57.519 I do read the book. I share the data carbon 1:19:57.800 --> 1:19:59.960 but the data is there. You look at the carbon capture, 1:20:00.160 --> 1:20:05.040 it turns your entire kitchen into being carbon negative from 1:20:05.040 --> 1:20:08.599 carbon positive just by composting. And now there's so many 1:20:08.640 --> 1:20:09.960 home systems, there's no excuse. 1:20:10.080 --> 1:20:12.360 Here's why I ask. In a city like New York, 1:20:12.960 --> 1:20:15.519 we now have composting citywide, But at that time, I 1:20:15.560 --> 1:20:19.519 can't imagine us doing this without having a weekly collection 1:20:19.720 --> 1:20:24.240 for compost. People live in multifamily, people live in apartments. 1:20:24.360 --> 1:20:26.800 It's not something they can definitely necessarily just go throw 1:20:26.840 --> 1:20:28.120 in their backyard and a composter. 1:20:28.400 --> 1:20:31.040 Except now there's companies like Lomi and Mill where you 1:20:31.120 --> 1:20:34.000 can absolutely do it anywhere. If you own a trashman, 1:20:34.520 --> 1:20:36.639 you can own one of these systems, and you absolutely 1:20:36.680 --> 1:20:38.880 can do it anywhere. It wasn't like it was even 1:20:39.280 --> 1:20:42.760 three years ago. Again, I think the technology, the startups, 1:20:42.800 --> 1:20:46.880 the support, the financial systems absolutely have made composting accessible. 1:20:47.120 --> 1:20:49.280 Am I understanding that more and more products are getting 1:20:49.320 --> 1:20:51.519 marked with regenerative like they're noting it to see that 1:20:51.600 --> 1:20:53.400 if you are looking to do the right thing, as 1:20:53.400 --> 1:20:55.120 you said, each of us can do it by buying 1:20:55.160 --> 1:20:57.840 a product starting there you can find the markings. Is 1:20:57.880 --> 1:20:58.479 that right? 1:20:58.640 --> 1:21:01.559 That's absolutely the genes I'm wearing our regenerative cotton. We're 1:21:01.600 --> 1:21:04.639 partnering on this cookbook tour with Citizens of Humanity. They 1:21:04.680 --> 1:21:06.760 have the same mission in the same aha moment that 1:21:06.800 --> 1:21:09.280 I had, which is from the clothes you wear, to 1:21:09.479 --> 1:21:11.160 the beauty products you use to what you're buying in 1:21:11.200 --> 1:21:13.760 a grocery store. We make more decisions about food and 1:21:13.800 --> 1:21:15.880 beverage in our daily lives than anything else. 1:21:16.000 --> 1:21:18.880 I want to ask you costs though, and I think about. 1:21:18.680 --> 1:21:19.479 Sub get it a lot. 1:21:19.760 --> 1:21:21.640 Yeah, so tell us a little bit about what the 1:21:21.680 --> 1:21:24.040 cost is for things and whether this is just a 1:21:24.160 --> 1:21:27.280 small sliver of the economy that can actually partake in 1:21:27.320 --> 1:21:28.599 this regenerative cycle. 1:21:29.240 --> 1:21:32.439 I really don't agree that it's just down to cost. 1:21:32.479 --> 1:21:34.439 And I will say because I think if you pair 1:21:34.479 --> 1:21:37.800 it with a more waste oriented practice in your home, 1:21:37.840 --> 1:21:40.320 which is what the book again holistically is trying and 1:21:40.400 --> 1:21:44.080 explain if you're thinking about quality over everything and less 1:21:44.160 --> 1:21:47.320 is more upcycling things in your home kitchen, not throwing 1:21:47.320 --> 1:21:49.280 out food. I mean, we all know the stats. We 1:21:49.320 --> 1:21:51.160 throw out a lot of food in America. It's not 1:21:51.200 --> 1:21:53.200 that we don't grow enough to feed our communities, it's 1:21:53.200 --> 1:21:55.719 that we waste too much. If you really think about 1:21:55.800 --> 1:21:59.600 quality of ingredients, supporting these farms, supporting these products, but 1:21:59.680 --> 1:22:02.160 buying less and being more creative and how you cook. 1:22:02.520 --> 1:22:04.960 I think net net you'd have more of the masses. 1:22:05.040 --> 1:22:07.440 But we talk about this like, I know in my household, 1:22:07.640 --> 1:22:10.040 like we're trying to shop more often. My daughter spend 1:22:10.080 --> 1:22:12.439 some time overseas and she's like, everybody shops daily. 1:22:12.920 --> 1:22:15.240 It's a very dig don't go in the refrigerator right. 1:22:15.320 --> 1:22:18.080 Right exact, you know. But this quantity of that, we 1:22:18.160 --> 1:22:22.080 have to have so much stuff food or otherwise. It's 1:22:22.320 --> 1:22:24.439 I don't know how we as a society, certainly here 1:22:24.439 --> 1:22:25.640 in the United States, get away from that. 1:22:26.320 --> 1:22:27.720 I think the truth is we have to. 1:22:27.880 --> 1:22:29.479 I mean, I think that's what the book is trying 1:22:29.479 --> 1:22:32.760 to also siren a little bit, is in a very 1:22:32.800 --> 1:22:35.880 beautiful and lovely way, sound the alarm of we kind 1:22:35.880 --> 1:22:38.040 of don't have a choice of continuing down the path. 1:22:38.280 --> 1:22:41.479 That's really the truth. So how do we change our hands? 1:22:41.560 --> 1:22:45.519 Kind of being forced already? Right, but climate crisis is looming. 1:22:45.960 --> 1:22:48.920 Traditional industrial farming is not working, both from a health 1:22:48.960 --> 1:22:50.840 and a sustainability standpoint. 1:22:51.120 --> 1:22:52.519 So let's zoom out a little bit and talk. 1:22:52.439 --> 1:22:54.439 About change is reducing some of the land we've got. 1:22:54.600 --> 1:22:57.400 Yeah, talk about some of the issues with modern farming 1:22:57.439 --> 1:22:59.360 because I think when people go to the store, they 1:22:59.360 --> 1:23:02.920 don't necessarily realize that what they're buying may have been 1:23:02.920 --> 1:23:06.080 grown in a way that isn't necessarily good for the environment, 1:23:06.080 --> 1:23:08.280 and in fact is bad for the environment. I don't 1:23:08.280 --> 1:23:11.439 think people I think regenerative. The concept of regenerative is 1:23:11.479 --> 1:23:13.960 still very new to a lot of people and unfamiliar 1:23:13.960 --> 1:23:14.599 to a lot of people. 1:23:15.160 --> 1:23:17.479 Yeah, you know, my philosophy is always I don't know 1:23:17.520 --> 1:23:19.360 that I care whether someone can define it. I don't 1:23:19.360 --> 1:23:22.240 think most people can define organic. It means pesticide and 1:23:22.320 --> 1:23:24.559 chemical free. But I don't think the average person is 1:23:24.600 --> 1:23:27.120 going to say that doesn't roll off the tongue. Same 1:23:27.120 --> 1:23:29.840 with regenerative. It's really all about the soil. Best way 1:23:29.880 --> 1:23:31.880 to remember it, soil is a four letter word. It's 1:23:31.880 --> 1:23:33.760 the thing we need to care the most about, and 1:23:33.800 --> 1:23:35.960 it's the most tied to our health. What's better for 1:23:36.000 --> 1:23:38.400 the earth is always better for our health. When we 1:23:38.439 --> 1:23:42.120 have farming practices that care about carbon in the soil 1:23:42.360 --> 1:23:44.479 and health of the soil, we get better for you 1:23:44.560 --> 1:23:46.360 foods that are higher in nutrient and density. 1:23:46.720 --> 1:23:50.320 Do you think the government needs to get involved and say, Okay, 1:23:50.360 --> 1:23:52.280 these things are allowed. These things are not allowed. 1:23:52.640 --> 1:23:53.080 Absolutely. 1:23:53.120 --> 1:23:55.439 Look, I always say follow the money, right. We are 1:23:55.479 --> 1:23:58.839 in an industrial stranglehold in agriculture because of the Industrial 1:23:58.880 --> 1:24:00.880 Revolution following World War Toooh. 1:24:00.560 --> 1:24:02.639 I would say that about fossil fuels in many ways, 1:24:02.720 --> 1:24:04.200 right exactly, But anyway, go ahead. 1:24:04.240 --> 1:24:07.080 No, the context has changed, but the policies are still 1:24:07.160 --> 1:24:09.599 sort of stuck back in time. We say we need 1:24:09.640 --> 1:24:12.160 to be more progressive. Go back in time before that 1:24:12.240 --> 1:24:16.000 industrialization and the difference. You asked about regenerative The best 1:24:16.000 --> 1:24:17.840 way to think about it is in one hand, you're 1:24:17.880 --> 1:24:20.519 holding that soil that you get when you're planting something 1:24:20.520 --> 1:24:23.320 in your home. It's black, it has organisms, it's wet, 1:24:23.320 --> 1:24:27.160 it's moist, versus picking up dirt around a tree right 1:24:27.240 --> 1:24:29.960 on the side of the road or here in Manhattan. 1:24:30.280 --> 1:24:33.559 One is chalky dry, it's sort of a dull brown color. 1:24:33.920 --> 1:24:37.840 That's the difference between traditional farming and regenerative farming. I'm 1:24:37.880 --> 1:24:39.479 a visual person, so I like to think of it 1:24:39.520 --> 1:24:40.000 in that way. 1:24:40.120 --> 1:24:42.479 But don't hate me for going back to this, But 1:24:42.520 --> 1:24:45.200 I mean, in terms of the cost of a regenerative farm, 1:24:45.439 --> 1:24:47.400 is it more expensive to do right now? 1:24:47.800 --> 1:24:49.880 Again, I think it depends on how you look at it. 1:24:49.920 --> 1:24:53.160 Is it a shift in practices that require capital investment, yes, 1:24:53.320 --> 1:24:56.240 does it pay back and reset the farm? Absolutely? And 1:24:56.280 --> 1:24:59.559 the biggest long term shift in that and whether it 1:24:59.640 --> 1:25:02.599 costs more to me, is those yields are going down. 1:25:02.760 --> 1:25:06.040 They are not these existing farms that have industrial practices 1:25:06.040 --> 1:25:09.760 and traditional modern farming. They're not able to grow the 1:25:09.800 --> 1:25:11.439 same that they were last year or the year before 1:25:11.479 --> 1:25:12.400 and the year before oil. 1:25:12.880 --> 1:25:13.400 So at some. 1:25:13.520 --> 1:25:17.559 Point that cost structure is going to surpass. So maybe 1:25:17.600 --> 1:25:20.000 today there's an argument to say that, but I would 1:25:20.080 --> 1:25:23.160 argue that's the fallacy that the incumbents want you to believe. 1:25:23.400 --> 1:25:25.040 It's not actually true when you look at the next 1:25:25.080 --> 1:25:25.719 seven years. 1:25:26.360 --> 1:25:27.679 So where should we be getting our food? 1:25:28.760 --> 1:25:32.320 A couple places. First, as locally as possible. Most communities 1:25:32.360 --> 1:25:35.040 have some form of a farmer's market, I think. Second, 1:25:35.240 --> 1:25:38.759 thinking about again buying directly from farms, their CSA boxes, 1:25:39.360 --> 1:25:43.080 dried products from all these incredible sources from around the country. 1:25:43.439 --> 1:25:46.000 And then third, go into your grocery store asking for 1:25:46.080 --> 1:25:49.280 regenerative brands, talking to the manager, going on shelf and 1:25:49.320 --> 1:25:52.400 looking for that word regenerative. It's what I talk about 1:25:52.439 --> 1:25:54.760 in the book from Rice to pasta, the sauces to 1:25:55.000 --> 1:25:58.559 our west Warren, avocado oil, all your basic staples now, 1:25:58.760 --> 1:26:00.559 so a lot of brands out there doing the good work. 1:26:00.560 --> 1:26:02.120 I think, you know, it is no different than when 1:26:02.120 --> 1:26:05.200 we kind of shifted towards organic right and looking for it. 1:26:05.240 --> 1:26:06.960 And I think we all have figured out how to 1:26:07.000 --> 1:26:08.720 do that. What you look like you wanted to ask something. 1:26:08.960 --> 1:26:10.960 I think the Tickles told us the same thing, to 1:26:11.040 --> 1:26:13.679 go to the grocery store and ask about this stuff. 1:26:13.720 --> 1:26:16.360 Because we're kind of the front line of this right. 1:26:16.800 --> 1:26:20.240 Always look at regenerative cotton right when Patagonia was one 1:26:20.240 --> 1:26:23.800 of the first to do, you know, organic cotton. Now 1:26:23.800 --> 1:26:26.479 it's table stakes to have organic cotton in your wardrobe. 1:26:26.520 --> 1:26:29.080 How often do you find that organic cotton? I'm trying 1:26:29.120 --> 1:26:31.120 to think, like when I go shopping aganic. 1:26:30.760 --> 1:26:32.919 Cotton now is really sort of the baseline. 1:26:32.960 --> 1:26:33.280 I think. 1:26:34.080 --> 1:26:36.880 Yeah, I mean even at you know, again accessible mass 1:26:36.920 --> 1:26:40.519 market companies and brands organic cottons everywhere. It wasn't ten 1:26:40.600 --> 1:26:43.680 years ago. Now, Regenerative textiles is the next wave, Like 1:26:43.720 --> 1:26:47.400 I said, from jeans to you know, upcycled products for 1:26:47.439 --> 1:26:50.280 your sunglasses, your glasses that you're wearing. I think you're 1:26:50.280 --> 1:26:53.519 seeing it actually more trailblazing in fashion and beauty, and 1:26:53.600 --> 1:26:55.559 I think foods behind, which is what we're trying to 1:26:55.560 --> 1:26:56.000 catch up. 1:26:56.080 --> 1:26:59.479 Your story though you started a restaurant take us back 1:26:59.560 --> 1:27:05.040 there twenty eighteen. I believe, Yeah, not an easy thing 1:27:05.120 --> 1:27:05.519 to do. 1:27:06.840 --> 1:27:08.559 If they were easy, everyone would do it. That's what 1:27:08.600 --> 1:27:09.360 my dad always said. 1:27:09.439 --> 1:27:10.680 Tell us about that process. 1:27:11.560 --> 1:27:12.599 Oh god, what I mean? 1:27:13.080 --> 1:27:13.360 Yeah? 1:27:13.400 --> 1:27:16.760 Look, opening a restaurant business period in this country is 1:27:16.920 --> 1:27:20.080 very hard. You know. Unfortunately the country is not so 1:27:20.880 --> 1:27:24.880 supportive of small businesses. And it's interesting, right, restaurants are 1:27:24.960 --> 1:27:28.400 the second largest employer next to healthcare, and yet you 1:27:28.439 --> 1:27:31.240 know they hire more people per square footage. And yet 1:27:31.280 --> 1:27:35.120 again we talked earlier about following the money, very little incentives. 1:27:35.320 --> 1:27:37.880 You know, most restaurants pay thirty percent corporate taxes when 1:27:37.920 --> 1:27:40.599 you tally it all up, I kind of brutal when 1:27:40.640 --> 1:27:42.720 you compare it to other businesses and employ a lot 1:27:42.800 --> 1:27:46.240 less Americans. So it's tough. The cards are stacked against you. 1:27:46.320 --> 1:27:48.519 But you know, I think we're all crazy and for 1:27:48.560 --> 1:27:50.760 the love of the game and the impact that it 1:27:50.800 --> 1:27:53.000 can make. I think on connecting the food system to 1:27:53.600 --> 1:27:55.960 all of us in the public, it's powerful. 1:27:55.640 --> 1:27:57.600 What do you think is the long term effect or 1:27:57.600 --> 1:28:00.560 long term consequence of what restaurants went through during the pandemic? 1:28:01.200 --> 1:28:02.200 Oh, big question. 1:28:02.400 --> 1:28:06.360 Look, I think be very involved in trying to save restaurants. 1:28:06.400 --> 1:28:10.080 You were out there lobbying for these small businesses to 1:28:10.120 --> 1:28:11.840 save your own. That was a big part of it. 1:28:11.880 --> 1:28:12.280 I was. 1:28:12.439 --> 1:28:14.880 I helped start Roar here in New York where we 1:28:14.920 --> 1:28:18.400 did cash assistance along with the Robin Hood Foundation, as 1:28:18.479 --> 1:28:21.880 well as the Independent Restaurant Coalition, which is still in existence, 1:28:22.320 --> 1:28:25.840 working tirelessly. The team is still activated. So I would 1:28:25.880 --> 1:28:28.760 say the overhang and sort of the pain of it 1:28:28.800 --> 1:28:31.519 all is still there. I mean, look at what's happening now. 1:28:32.360 --> 1:28:33.960 You know in the southern part of this country with 1:28:33.960 --> 1:28:37.720 the hurricane, it's hard enough to operate these businesses. You know, 1:28:38.000 --> 1:28:40.479 it really got crushed during the pandemic, and I don't 1:28:40.520 --> 1:28:42.640 think anyone's really come out of it. And then you 1:28:42.680 --> 1:28:45.880 continue to get just really heavy regulation every time. When 1:28:45.920 --> 1:28:48.120 we even talked about penalty, right, you look at the 1:28:48.200 --> 1:28:51.479 straw ban. You know, Amazon doesn't get a plastic ban, 1:28:51.680 --> 1:28:54.880 but restaurants somehow, you know, have to constantly go through 1:28:54.920 --> 1:28:58.400 hoops of oh you you know, have to accept cash, 1:28:58.520 --> 1:29:01.920 you can't do straw. There's all these regulations that come 1:29:01.960 --> 1:29:04.639 down so that it's a nice headline, but where's really 1:29:04.640 --> 1:29:07.000 the support for an industry that's always been a big 1:29:07.080 --> 1:29:09.840 game changer when it comes to agriculture, Right, Everything we 1:29:09.960 --> 1:29:12.840 learn about biodiversity often comes from restaurants. You learn about 1:29:12.880 --> 1:29:16.479 new ingredients, new farming techniques. We talked about organics, so 1:29:16.720 --> 1:29:18.960 much of that language comes from when you die now 1:29:19.280 --> 1:29:21.240 and you learn from chefs around the country who are 1:29:21.320 --> 1:29:25.040 usually the first adopters. And yet we don't really have 1:29:25.600 --> 1:29:29.800 large government support for making these strong, viable businesses that 1:29:30.160 --> 1:29:33.439 are critically important to our farming system, important to feed 1:29:33.479 --> 1:29:35.160 people and massive employers. 1:29:35.200 --> 1:29:37.200 Camilla, Why doesn't that happen here? We are in an 1:29:37.200 --> 1:29:37.960 election year? 1:29:38.160 --> 1:29:38.559 Is it the. 1:29:38.560 --> 1:29:43.519 Lobby group isn't strong enough donating enough? Like I'm just 1:29:43.640 --> 1:29:47.600 curious because, as you say, follow the money in politics, 1:29:48.120 --> 1:29:50.519 that's true in terms often of who gets heard. 1:29:51.120 --> 1:29:53.320 I think it's that, But I also think it's the 1:29:53.400 --> 1:29:55.720 nature of the business. You know, during the pandemic, one 1:29:55.760 --> 1:29:59.080 of our big taglines was, you know, we're we are 1:29:59.160 --> 1:30:02.240 collectively as small We are each a small business technically, 1:30:02.479 --> 1:30:06.200 but collectively we're obviously a massive industry. I think that's 1:30:06.240 --> 1:30:08.200 part of the problem, is right, you look at aerospace, 1:30:08.240 --> 1:30:11.200 there's a handful. You can count on your hands how 1:30:11.240 --> 1:30:14.759 many players that the government has to negotiate. I think 1:30:14.960 --> 1:30:18.160 we get written off because it's, oh, everyone's so different. 1:30:18.280 --> 1:30:20.120 It's a bunch of small businesses. Who knows what the 1:30:20.160 --> 1:30:23.200 owners want. But there are very similar through lines through 1:30:23.200 --> 1:30:25.760 all of them. And I think it's really just the 1:30:26.520 --> 1:30:29.479 being very daunted that there's so many players involved, versus 1:30:29.560 --> 1:30:32.720 seeing it as a bigger industry like a healthcare which 1:30:32.760 --> 1:30:33.240 it is. 1:30:33.240 --> 1:30:36.400 Is there also local rules and laws versus federal, Like 1:30:36.439 --> 1:30:36.720 I'm just. 1:30:36.720 --> 1:30:39.960 Curious, local, state, federal. I mean, you name it right, 1:30:40.600 --> 1:30:42.920 rests it's great headlines. You guys know you're in the 1:30:42.920 --> 1:30:46.920 news business. Everything's about clickbait and splashiness. And when you 1:30:46.960 --> 1:30:49.760 regulate a restaurant or you come down hard on things 1:30:49.800 --> 1:30:53.760 related to labor, real estate again food, it all makes 1:30:53.760 --> 1:30:55.840 for really good headlines when you pass a regulation, but 1:30:55.880 --> 1:30:57.960 they don't really think about the ripple effects. 1:31:00.160 --> 1:31:03.839 Kind of on that. You know, you said nothing's off limits, 1:31:03.840 --> 1:31:07.360 So I have some of really important questions. We have 1:31:07.439 --> 1:31:10.760 kids that are like the same age. My five year 1:31:10.760 --> 1:31:11.920 old is a very picky eater. 1:31:12.280 --> 1:31:13.160 I love these guys. 1:31:13.160 --> 1:31:14.880 What are you cooking for your kids and how do 1:31:14.880 --> 1:31:15.600 you get them to eat it? 1:31:15.800 --> 1:31:18.559 So I'm going to go back, which is one grows 1:31:18.600 --> 1:31:20.479 something in your house. It's a big ten ind of 1:31:20.479 --> 1:31:23.919 the book. I find that children look at food totally differently. 1:31:24.040 --> 1:31:26.240 Even if you do windowsill herbs and you have them 1:31:26.280 --> 1:31:29.320 putting herbs in their own dish quote unquote cook My 1:31:29.360 --> 1:31:31.400 son can literally cook his own meal at a stove 1:31:31.520 --> 1:31:34.519 with a knife. They understand cutting boards, they know knife safety. 1:31:34.800 --> 1:31:36.599 My three and a half year old fully kin chop 1:31:36.680 --> 1:31:39.600 things for me. Have them participate in meals, but it 1:31:39.640 --> 1:31:42.839 really starts at the source. Grow something. Have them watch 1:31:43.360 --> 1:31:46.400 watching My children understand that a strawberry takes a certain 1:31:46.400 --> 1:31:49.000 amount of time, that a squash is something that they 1:31:49.439 --> 1:31:52.519 took care of every single day for months. There's a 1:31:52.720 --> 1:31:56.240 very different most kids I would be. I would be 1:31:56.320 --> 1:31:58.960 shocked if a child wouldn't eat something that they actually grew. 1:31:59.360 --> 1:32:01.759 It's like the part of being human and having an ego. 1:32:02.080 --> 1:32:04.640 Play into that with your own children. Give them authorship. 1:32:04.840 --> 1:32:06.720 It's very hard not to get into it when you're 1:32:06.760 --> 1:32:09.879 part of it. So grow something include them and cooking, 1:32:09.960 --> 1:32:11.799 and then give them a lot of agency and choice, 1:32:12.479 --> 1:32:15.599 put out different sauces, have them decide. My kids also 1:32:15.680 --> 1:32:17.920 do our grocery shopping. They go to the grocery store, 1:32:17.920 --> 1:32:20.160 they go to our farmer's market, and they have to 1:32:20.200 --> 1:32:22.720 live up to what we call top chef challenges. They 1:32:22.720 --> 1:32:25.000 have to pick a new fruit or vegetable every single month. 1:32:25.439 --> 1:32:27.400 They have to try something new. Our rule in our 1:32:27.400 --> 1:32:29.040 houses you don't have to like it, but you have 1:32:29.120 --> 1:32:32.040 to try it. You can't just refuse. And then we 1:32:32.080 --> 1:32:33.599 talk about what are we going to have this week, 1:32:33.640 --> 1:32:35.120 what are we going to try, what are you into? 1:32:35.200 --> 1:32:35.760 What do you like? 1:32:35.800 --> 1:32:37.920 What did you not like? But I think also making 1:32:37.920 --> 1:32:40.560 it very interactive and giving them a form of agency 1:32:40.560 --> 1:32:43.679 of okay, you can have broccoli, but right there's twenty. 1:32:44.160 --> 1:32:46.080 First of all, there's many kinds of broccoli out there, 1:32:46.600 --> 1:32:49.280 and let's talk to the farmer. My kids have to pay, 1:32:49.320 --> 1:32:52.720 they have to actually procure their own produce. And then 1:32:52.760 --> 1:32:56.080 when we cook, let's talk about grilling, Let's talk about 1:32:56.200 --> 1:32:59.519 you know, roasting, let's talk about steaming, let's talk about 1:32:59.640 --> 1:33:02.200 raw and we talk about all those different things and 1:33:02.240 --> 1:33:05.160 how they can make it different ways again, giving them agency. 1:33:05.640 --> 1:33:10.280 And then I'd say, lastly, educate kids love information. Talk 1:33:10.280 --> 1:33:13.320 about what each fruit and vegetable is doing in their body. 1:33:13.600 --> 1:33:15.639 I mean my kids will use the word vitamin see. 1:33:15.720 --> 1:33:17.559 I mean my three year old knows what that means. 1:33:18.400 --> 1:33:20.479 Talk about does it help your eyes, does it help 1:33:20.520 --> 1:33:22.559 your bones, does it help your muscles? And then how 1:33:22.600 --> 1:33:26.000 does that relate to their day and being higher performance 1:33:26.040 --> 1:33:26.479 and fuller. 1:33:26.640 --> 1:33:28.639 I just want to make the honeynuts squash with fried 1:33:28.680 --> 1:33:33.920 squash seeds thirty secs over the weekend thirty seconds. Who 1:33:34.000 --> 1:33:35.479 is this book for everyone? 1:33:36.160 --> 1:33:38.800 It really is? If again, it doesn't mean you have 1:33:38.840 --> 1:33:40.840 to adopt it all, but I get a lot of 1:33:40.880 --> 1:33:45.160 questions about kids and families and who's it for the cost? 1:33:45.600 --> 1:33:47.280 Every single one of us could pick one thing out 1:33:47.320 --> 1:33:49.320 of that book and do it and adopt it and 1:33:49.360 --> 1:33:53.040 feel really excited and fulfilled after, I promise, you will 1:33:53.080 --> 1:33:55.400 feel better and you'll realize that it's actually not that 1:33:55.479 --> 1:33:58.040 hard to make that change. You'll tell a friend, they'll 1:33:58.040 --> 1:34:00.280 tell a friend, and we spread it like wild fire. 1:34:00.800 --> 1:34:02.679 And I feel like the world is increasingly, at least 1:34:02.720 --> 1:34:07.879 in my circle, moving towards those plant based diets increasingly Camilla, 1:34:08.000 --> 1:34:08.639 thank you so much. 1:34:08.680 --> 1:34:09.240 This is fun. 1:34:09.439 --> 1:34:12.800 Good luck, good luck Camilla Marcus my regenerative kitchen, plant 1:34:12.800 --> 1:34:16.080 based recipes and sustainable practices to nourish ourselves in the planet. 1:34:16.120 --> 1:34:18.320 I know what you're doing to It's squash season, heis. 1:34:18.439 --> 1:34:22.759 I spent all weekend cooking squash. 1:34:22.800 --> 1:34:25.719 You're twenty all different titles and go make it different ways. 1:34:25.760 --> 1:34:26.519 Get them involved. 1:34:26.600 --> 1:34:29.439 All right, everybody you are listening and watching Bloomberg Business Week, 1:34:29.760 --> 1:34:30.200 thank you. 1:34:31.080 --> 1:34:34.880 This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. I'll avail Little Apple, 1:34:35.160 --> 1:34:38.679 Spotify and anywhere else you can get your podcasts. Listen 1:34:38.800 --> 1:34:41.960 live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on 1:34:42.040 --> 1:34:45.400 Bloomberg dot Com, the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the 1:34:45.439 --> 1:34:48.400 Bloomberg Business App. You can also watch us live every 1:34:48.400 --> 1:34:52.040 weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg germinalone