WEBVTT - #60 The Messenger 0:00:15.210 --> 0:00:26.450 Pushkin, Happy birthday to me. 0:00:27.130 --> 0:00:27.770 It was your birthday. 0:00:27.810 --> 0:00:29.490 It was your birthday last week, wasn't it. 0:00:29.490 --> 0:00:34.129 That's kind of why I was phoning. I. 0:00:34.129 --> 0:00:35.010 I'm sorry, buddy. 0:00:35.250 --> 0:00:37.090 It lose to something when you have to call a 0:00:37.129 --> 0:00:40.170 week later to receive to get your own your own 0:00:40.210 --> 0:00:42.490 birthday wish from someone you know, it hurts. 0:00:42.810 --> 0:00:46.050 Okay, Honestly, I feel like your birthdays is that important 0:00:46.050 --> 0:00:46.169 to you? 0:00:46.250 --> 0:00:46.690 Am I wrong? 0:00:47.290 --> 0:00:49.290 Well, it's not as important to me as the first 0:00:49.370 --> 0:00:55.250 night of Kanka and the second night, not the third night. 0:00:55.810 --> 0:00:58.730 I hate the third night. You know what, As a 0:00:58.770 --> 0:01:01.729 birthday present to myself, I'm going to hang up on you. 0:01:04.209 --> 0:01:15.690 Happy birthday to me indeed from Pushkin Industries. I'm Jonathan Goldstein, 0:01:15.930 --> 0:01:27.090 and this is Heavyweight Today's episode The Messenger right after 0:01:27.090 --> 0:01:38.929 the Break. As a kid growing up in Cleveland, Michael 0:01:38.970 --> 0:01:44.090 loved acting. The only problem I wasn't very good. In fact, 0:01:44.170 --> 0:01:47.730 he stank in every summer camp show. He was placed 0:01:47.730 --> 0:01:50.730 in the back row. In a children's production of The 0:01:50.770 --> 0:01:54.490 Hobbit the Musical. Backstage, a kid dressed as a dwarf 0:01:54.530 --> 0:01:58.730 told Michael, my mom says, you're singing is awful. But 0:01:58.810 --> 0:02:02.050 it didn't stop Michael. He nursed his acting bug all 0:02:02.090 --> 0:02:05.330 the way through senior year, when one day he heard 0:02:05.370 --> 0:02:08.650 about a movie being filmed in Cleveland and the director 0:02:08.810 --> 0:02:13.050 needed lots of teens to be extras. Straight after school, 0:02:13.210 --> 0:02:16.010 Michael made his way to the auditions. He was shown 0:02:16.049 --> 0:02:18.490 into a room with the director and some of the crew. 0:02:19.050 --> 0:02:21.930 They gave him a script and he started acting. 0:02:22.330 --> 0:02:26.690 And their eyes lit up, and I was asked to 0:02:26.770 --> 0:02:29.690 keep reading, and so we did the scene again. 0:02:30.370 --> 0:02:34.050 We did it again and again and again, and all 0:02:34.130 --> 0:02:37.450 the while Michael was overcome by a curious feeling. 0:02:37.890 --> 0:02:38.850 I was doing a good job. 0:02:39.130 --> 0:02:42.210 Had you ever experienced this before, like, been in an 0:02:42.250 --> 0:02:44.570 audition where people were responding this way? 0:02:45.850 --> 0:02:49.850 No, No, I was usually in auditions where they're like, 0:02:50.650 --> 0:02:53.130 we can make him a tree. 0:02:57.010 --> 0:02:59.650 At the end of the audition, the director told Michael 0:02:59.690 --> 0:03:02.450 that he was not going to be an extra. Michael 0:03:02.770 --> 0:03:04.970 was going to be the star of the whole movie. 0:03:05.890 --> 0:03:07.570 Why was he going to be the star of the 0:03:07.610 --> 0:03:11.290 whole movie? Was it his brando esque brooding, his Shia 0:03:11.330 --> 0:03:12.770 la Buffian intensity. 0:03:13.410 --> 0:03:18.850 They showed me the storyboard and I looked exactly like 0:03:19.130 --> 0:03:22.930 the kid in the drawings of the storyboard. That's the 0:03:22.970 --> 0:03:25.210 reason I got it. They were just like you look 0:03:25.290 --> 0:03:26.170 like the kid we drew. 0:03:27.330 --> 0:03:30.810 The film was called The Messenger, based on a true story, 0:03:31.450 --> 0:03:34.170 and the true story it was based on was a 0:03:34.170 --> 0:03:37.970 little known World War II anecdote about a teenager named 0:03:37.970 --> 0:03:43.210 Thomas E. Jones. Jones was a telegram messenger in Washington, DC. 0:03:44.250 --> 0:03:47.530 On August fourteenth, nineteen forty five. He was sent to 0:03:47.610 --> 0:03:52.130 deliver the telegram that announced Japan's unconditional surrender to the Allies, 0:03:52.770 --> 0:03:55.450 but on the way to deliver the message, he got 0:03:55.450 --> 0:03:59.210 pulled over for an illegal U turn, and thus the 0:03:59.330 --> 0:04:02.730 end of World War Two was delayed by ten minutes. 0:04:03.770 --> 0:04:06.650 Michael played the role of Thomas as he navigated that 0:04:06.730 --> 0:04:07.410 fateful day. 0:04:08.010 --> 0:04:10.890 I show up to set and I just was immediately 0:04:11.250 --> 0:04:13.890 involved in the magic of film. And they had to 0:04:14.210 --> 0:04:17.050 fake the daylight by putting lights outside the window. And 0:04:17.370 --> 0:04:20.330 I remember being like, Oh, you're not just like capturing 0:04:20.370 --> 0:04:22.650 a moment, You're creating a moment. 0:04:23.529 --> 0:04:26.849 And the custodian of this exciting new world. The director 0:04:26.890 --> 0:04:29.289 of the movie was a twenty five year old wonder 0:04:29.369 --> 0:04:34.889 kid named Quincy. Quincy took to Michael immediately. Throughout the production, 0:04:35.169 --> 0:04:37.370 he check in with Michael on the phone and take 0:04:37.450 --> 0:04:40.689 him out for wings. Michael looked up to Quincy to. 0:04:40.729 --> 0:04:45.249 Meet someone who was orchestrating this giant production and then 0:04:45.330 --> 0:04:48.049 for him to take time talk to me. 0:04:48.289 --> 0:04:52.329 I felt part of Even after filming wrapped, Quincy stayed 0:04:52.330 --> 0:04:55.769 in touch, calling Michael with updates about the movie's release. 0:04:56.369 --> 0:05:00.010 We were going to premiere at the Philadelphia Film Festival. 0:05:00.529 --> 0:05:03.689 I learned that it was a big production, one hundred 0:05:03.770 --> 0:05:06.089 thousand dollars short film, which is a lot of money 0:05:06.250 --> 0:05:10.050 for a short movie. The executive producer was this man 0:05:10.130 --> 0:05:11.049 named Pat. 0:05:10.810 --> 0:05:15.450 Croche Pat pad Pad if you don't know the name. 0:05:15.890 --> 0:05:19.689 Pat Croche was a media presence, an entrepreneur, famous in 0:05:19.729 --> 0:05:22.770 the world of sports because he owned the Philadelphia seventy 0:05:22.849 --> 0:05:29.009 six ers in the late nineties. He was a motivational speaker. 0:05:29.049 --> 0:05:31.250 I get up, I slap my palms together, It's going 0:05:31.330 --> 0:05:32.450 to be a great. 0:05:32.250 --> 0:05:34.689 Day, a noted pirate enthusiast. 0:05:34.810 --> 0:05:37.690 People ask me if I'm a pirate, and I say yes, 0:05:38.210 --> 0:05:39.930 but three hundred years too late. 0:05:40.169 --> 0:05:43.570 And the kind of beloved pre me too, macho man 0:05:43.690 --> 0:05:46.289 who'd show up unannounced on the set of the local 0:05:46.369 --> 0:05:49.849 news just to scoop the anchor woman up into his arms. 0:05:49.810 --> 0:05:51.050 Accident on the jersey term. 0:05:51.089 --> 0:05:56.650 I guess, oh my god, because when you have that 0:05:56.810 --> 0:05:59.370 much joi de vivre, what choice do you have? 0:05:59.570 --> 0:06:01.370 You know, whatever Pat comes in the room, you never 0:06:01.369 --> 0:06:01.809 know what's. 0:06:01.650 --> 0:06:09.770 Gonna happen, rules because Pat crochy, because he's involved. The 0:06:09.810 --> 0:06:11.009 movie gets a lot. 0:06:10.849 --> 0:06:14.169 Of press for a short film by an unknown director. 0:06:14.529 --> 0:06:18.249 The Messenger received an unheard of amount of press. ESPN 0:06:18.330 --> 0:06:21.169 carried a story with footage of Michael on set, and 0:06:21.210 --> 0:06:24.049 there was a huge write up in USA Today. My 0:06:24.210 --> 0:06:24.810 dad was. 0:06:24.810 --> 0:06:27.690 Flying that day. You know, he's in an airport. He 0:06:27.729 --> 0:06:30.610 picks up the USA Today. He flips it open and sees, 0:06:30.690 --> 0:06:34.010 you know, a two page spread with my picture on it. 0:06:34.169 --> 0:06:37.409 So the family's excitement, the friend's excitement. Everyone starts to 0:06:37.450 --> 0:06:39.169 just be like, this is a very big deal. 0:06:39.849 --> 0:06:42.610 Michael was planning on college in the fall, but as 0:06:42.650 --> 0:06:46.130 anticipation around the movie grew, he started to reconsider. 0:06:49.729 --> 0:06:52.729 Leading up to the Philadelphia Film Festival, talking to Quincy, 0:06:52.969 --> 0:06:56.529 He's like, Tom Hanks wants to meet with you. This 0:06:56.729 --> 0:06:59.969 is a real chance, this is a real opportunity. This 0:07:00.010 --> 0:07:03.729 is bigger than I imagined. I was like, maybe maybe 0:07:03.729 --> 0:07:05.650 I try and pursue acting. 0:07:06.489 --> 0:07:09.930 Maybe Michael had been wrong all these years everyone had 0:07:09.970 --> 0:07:13.210 been Maybe he really was a good actor, and it 0:07:13.250 --> 0:07:19.730 took Quincy to discover it. Michael couldn't wait to walk 0:07:19.770 --> 0:07:22.890 the red carpet, see himself on the big screen, and 0:07:23.050 --> 0:07:25.610 enjoy a virgin appleteini with Tom Hanks. 0:07:26.090 --> 0:07:28.929 Did your parents come with you to the premiere? Well, 0:07:29.530 --> 0:07:33.410 we didn't make it to the premiere. The movie was canceled. 0:07:38.369 --> 0:07:43.569 So the week before the Philadelphia Film Festival premiere, I 0:07:43.570 --> 0:07:49.370 got a phone call from Quincy and he was clearly crying, 0:07:50.210 --> 0:07:54.010 and he told me that the movie wasn't going to 0:07:54.090 --> 0:07:58.369 come out and nobody was going to see it. Because 0:07:59.130 --> 0:08:04.530 it turns out that Quincy had lied and had told 0:08:04.530 --> 0:08:05.650 a really big lie. 0:08:06.250 --> 0:08:08.770 The lie Michael's referring to had nothing to do with 0:08:08.890 --> 0:08:13.210 his historical anecdote itself. That part was true, But over 0:08:13.210 --> 0:08:16.689 the end credits, Quincy played footage of the actual present 0:08:16.730 --> 0:08:20.929 day Thomas E. Jones being interviewed on his deathbed. The 0:08:20.970 --> 0:08:22.650 only problem. 0:08:22.290 --> 0:08:24.170 That guy was an actor. 0:08:27.250 --> 0:08:29.850 It seems Quincy had just found a random old man, 0:08:30.050 --> 0:08:33.170 slipped him into a gown, strapped him into a hospital bed, 0:08:33.330 --> 0:08:37.530 and christened him Thomas e Jones. But there was one 0:08:37.570 --> 0:08:39.130 thing Quincy wasn't counting on. 0:08:39.929 --> 0:08:44.410 Because the movie had received so much attention, Thomas E 0:08:44.530 --> 0:08:47.250 Jones's real family found. 0:08:47.010 --> 0:08:51.130 Out, and Thomas E Jones's real family wasn't happy because, 0:08:51.170 --> 0:08:53.809 as it turned out, the real Thomas E Jones was 0:08:53.970 --> 0:08:58.650 very much alive, breathing, eating, sleeping, and not on a 0:08:58.690 --> 0:09:02.330 deathbed but just a regular old bedbed, and so Pat 0:09:02.370 --> 0:09:04.210 Crochey decided to pull the movie. 0:09:04.890 --> 0:09:08.570 I mean, it was crushing disappointment. I had the ticket 0:09:08.610 --> 0:09:11.010 to go, I had the suit, I had all the 0:09:11.090 --> 0:09:14.850 expectation I had in my brain, everything that could be 0:09:15.130 --> 0:09:19.290 possible after and it's all gone, it's all it vanishes. 0:09:19.850 --> 0:09:23.170 And then it's a wave of embarrassment because I have 0:09:23.250 --> 0:09:25.130 to tell everybody. 0:09:25.330 --> 0:09:28.010 Michael had to go back to his friend's family, his 0:09:28.090 --> 0:09:31.850 grandmother who'd been clipping every article about the movie, and say, 0:09:32.410 --> 0:09:34.730 remember how I was going to be a big movie star. 0:09:35.330 --> 0:09:37.690 It was all a fraud. And the guy who thought 0:09:37.730 --> 0:09:40.050 I had talent also a fraud. 0:09:40.610 --> 0:09:42.970 And I never talked to Quincy again. 0:09:44.170 --> 0:09:47.570 Michael abandoned his dream of becoming an actor, but his 0:09:47.650 --> 0:09:50.690 time on The Messengers still had its impact. It allowed 0:09:50.730 --> 0:09:53.010 him to realize how much he loved being on a set, 0:09:53.370 --> 0:09:56.330 loved the magic of creating a whole world from thin air, 0:09:56.890 --> 0:09:59.850 and that pushed him towards a career in TV, writing 0:09:59.890 --> 0:10:05.050 for shows on Disney and Nickelodeon. Meanwhile, Quincy's IMDb credits 0:10:05.210 --> 0:10:06.130 have grown sparse. 0:10:06.530 --> 0:10:09.930 I always wondered what happened to Quincy becau to him. 0:10:10.130 --> 0:10:11.610 There was part of me that wanted to tell him 0:10:11.610 --> 0:10:16.770 that I've like succeeded, that I've pursued movies because of him. 0:10:17.130 --> 0:10:20.410 But along with that, Michael has a lingering question for Quincy. 0:10:21.010 --> 0:10:24.850 I never understood why you would take such a big 0:10:24.970 --> 0:10:28.370 risk like that to make such a big line. It's 0:10:28.410 --> 0:10:30.450 like you've set up a film crew to film this 0:10:30.490 --> 0:10:32.690 guy on his deathbed and it wasn't like it just 0:10:32.730 --> 0:10:34.890 seems like a bad plan. 0:10:35.890 --> 0:10:38.610 As Michael has climbed the ranks of show business, this 0:10:38.730 --> 0:10:42.810 question has only gained in poignance. Why risk your reputation, 0:10:43.530 --> 0:10:45.850 especially when the story was good enough as it was. 0:10:47.330 --> 0:10:48.290 Why did you lie. 0:10:49.810 --> 0:10:54.490 After the break searching for Quincy to become the messengers messenger? 0:10:55.050 --> 0:10:59.730 But first, the best messages of all promotional messages from 0:10:59.810 --> 0:11:04.370 our cherished sponsors, We really do love you guys ill 0:11:04.890 --> 0:11:08.850 two gross. It's a little gross, eh, keep it in. 0:11:28.650 --> 0:11:31.809 Why did Quincy lie? The more I think about it, 0:11:31.930 --> 0:11:34.570 the less sense it all makes. Why go to the 0:11:34.610 --> 0:11:37.810 trouble of hiring an old man and building a hospital set? 0:11:38.250 --> 0:11:40.730 Why not just use the real Thomas E Jones? 0:11:44.250 --> 0:11:44.570 Hello? 0:11:45.130 --> 0:11:48.330 Oh, hello, my name is Jonathan Gould. I've so far 0:11:48.410 --> 0:11:51.050 been unable to contact Quincy, so I reach out to 0:11:51.130 --> 0:11:53.410 someone else who might have the answer. I was looking 0:11:53.450 --> 0:11:55.010 for a Thomas E. Jones. 0:11:56.050 --> 0:11:56.930 He's deceased. 0:11:57.570 --> 0:11:59.090 Oh, I'm very sorry. 0:12:00.050 --> 0:12:04.970 Yes, I'm his widow. When he died, we would have 0:12:04.970 --> 0:12:06.650 been married almost seventy years. 0:12:08.050 --> 0:12:12.130 Thomas's widow, Nancy, is eighty nine years old. She says 0:12:12.170 --> 0:12:15.210 she doesn't know why Quincy didn't just go to Thomas himself, 0:12:15.810 --> 0:12:17.730 But we get to talking and she tells me the 0:12:17.770 --> 0:12:20.770 story of how she first met Thomas. It was through 0:12:20.850 --> 0:12:24.130 his work as a messenger. It turns out Nancy's father 0:12:24.290 --> 0:12:27.730 was Thomas's boss at the telegram office. She tells me 0:12:27.850 --> 0:12:30.970 how in nineteen forty five, there was a dedicated telegraph 0:12:31.050 --> 0:12:34.450 machine standing by for the sole purpose of awaiting the 0:12:34.530 --> 0:12:36.170 Japanese surrender. 0:12:36.210 --> 0:12:41.210 And when that machine started ticking my father. He handed 0:12:41.290 --> 0:12:44.650 his message first to my husband, who was a bicycle 0:12:44.690 --> 0:12:46.730 messenger at sixteen years of age. 0:12:47.370 --> 0:12:50.410 Since the bike was too slow for such an important message, 0:12:50.530 --> 0:12:54.570 a coworker agreed to drive Thomas in his car. Unfortunately, 0:12:54.770 --> 0:12:57.850 he set out in the wrong direction, and thus the 0:12:57.890 --> 0:13:01.810 most famous U turn in American history, or at least 0:13:01.850 --> 0:13:04.250 the only one I've ever heard of, and I've read 0:13:04.290 --> 0:13:07.610 my Howard Zinn. The U turn got Thomas and his 0:13:07.730 --> 0:13:10.370 driver pulled over by a cap Of course. 0:13:10.090 --> 0:13:12.530 They were saying, we've got the Japanese piece a render 0:13:12.610 --> 0:13:15.050 message here. Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories. But 0:13:15.730 --> 0:13:18.330 the police realized it was the truth. They just pore 0:13:18.450 --> 0:13:19.050 up the ticket. 0:13:19.530 --> 0:13:23.170 Wow, what a story is. Yeah, and it's a pretty 0:13:23.170 --> 0:13:26.770 different story than the one in the Messenger. Not only 0:13:26.810 --> 0:13:29.690 were the Joneses angry about the fake Thomas, but they 0:13:29.730 --> 0:13:32.850 were also angry about what they considered the fake story. 0:13:33.410 --> 0:13:36.690 In Quincy's version of events, Thomas is in no hurry 0:13:36.770 --> 0:13:39.850 to deliver the message. He makes a casual pit stop 0:13:39.890 --> 0:13:42.610 at a diner, where he hits on the waitress and 0:13:42.770 --> 0:13:46.570 enjoys a large breakfast of pancakes, all while the war 0:13:46.730 --> 0:13:49.970 rages on the Jones has read about that scene in 0:13:49.970 --> 0:13:53.410 the media coverage of Quincy's movie, Newspaper write ups with 0:13:53.490 --> 0:13:57.410 headlines like boys, pancake breakfast delayed the end of World 0:13:57.410 --> 0:14:00.010 War Two. 0:14:01.210 --> 0:14:04.450 Well, you know, my kids were just serious about that. 0:14:06.010 --> 0:14:09.490 Talking about kids, We're talking about people now sixty years old. 0:14:10.650 --> 0:14:12.730 We were outraged. The kids were outraged. 0:14:13.530 --> 0:14:17.130 This is Victoria Jones. She's one of Thomas and Nancy's 0:14:17.170 --> 0:14:20.610 six children, all of whom when it came to the messenger, 0:14:21.010 --> 0:14:22.330 were in agreement. 0:14:22.090 --> 0:14:24.690 Which was unusual for the six of us. 0:14:25.450 --> 0:14:28.810 This is Thomas's son, Mike Jones. He says that the 0:14:28.850 --> 0:14:31.690 only one inclined to let the whole thing go was 0:14:31.730 --> 0:14:32.690 Thomas himself. 0:14:33.050 --> 0:14:35.410 That was kind of my dad's attitude, like, oh, don't 0:14:35.410 --> 0:14:37.690 make a big deal, don't get this person in trouble. 0:14:37.890 --> 0:14:40.970 We said, no, this is altering history. 0:14:41.170 --> 0:14:43.370 It just kind of portrayed him like as the slacker, 0:14:43.450 --> 0:14:44.850 you know, like, oh, the heck with that, I'm going 0:14:44.930 --> 0:14:47.610 to go and flirt and eat pancakes. 0:14:52.010 --> 0:14:55.290 Victoria says that although Quincy never reached out to her father, 0:14:55.810 --> 0:14:56.810 he easily. 0:14:56.450 --> 0:14:59.330 Could have, just like you found my mother by getting 0:14:59.330 --> 0:15:02.210 a few phone calls, Quincy could have found my father, 0:15:02.850 --> 0:15:04.010 and he never tried. 0:15:04.730 --> 0:15:07.890 When she found out about the movie, Victoria messaged Quincy 0:15:08.010 --> 0:15:11.570 several times, but she says he grew defensive and eventually 0:15:11.650 --> 0:15:12.490 stopped answering. 0:15:12.970 --> 0:15:15.970 And then when my father died, I sent him a 0:15:16.010 --> 0:15:18.770 message and said my father is now deceased. 0:15:19.770 --> 0:15:21.850 Huh. And he did not respond to that. 0:15:22.690 --> 0:15:26.010 No, I should go back and look. He might have said, 0:15:26.010 --> 0:15:27.210 I'm sorry, and that was it. 0:15:28.170 --> 0:15:30.890 I tell the Joneses the story about Michael and how 0:15:30.930 --> 0:15:32.610 I'm trying to reach Quincy myself. 0:15:32.970 --> 0:15:33.890 Good luck with that one. 0:15:34.090 --> 0:15:37.650 I'm sure he'll take this better left of dead story 0:15:37.810 --> 0:15:38.210 out too. 0:15:45.370 --> 0:15:48.530 It turns out Nancy Jones is right. When I finally 0:15:48.530 --> 0:15:52.210 get through to Quincy via email, his response is emphatic. 0:15:52.810 --> 0:15:56.490 I'm not interested in talking about that project anymore, he writes, 0:15:57.250 --> 0:16:06.210 And that's the last I hear from Quincy. What happens 0:16:06.250 --> 0:16:10.570 next is years go by, unrelated to my failure to 0:16:10.610 --> 0:16:14.570 speak with Quincy. But you never know. Heavyweight is canceled 0:16:14.650 --> 0:16:17.690 and I lose my job. And while the story never 0:16:17.850 --> 0:16:21.730 entirely leaves my mind, without an ergonomic office chair and 0:16:21.770 --> 0:16:24.570 a long distance phone plan, there's not much I could 0:16:24.610 --> 0:16:27.770 do about it. And then one day, while trying to 0:16:27.770 --> 0:16:30.890 decide on a fun font for my resume, I receive 0:16:30.930 --> 0:16:34.330 a message from Michael. He says he has an important 0:16:34.450 --> 0:16:38.330 update to share. Hey Jonathan, Hey Michael, how are you good? 0:16:38.410 --> 0:16:39.050 How are you doing? 0:16:39.570 --> 0:16:42.490 It's been almost three years since Michael and I have spoken. 0:16:42.930 --> 0:16:43.530 You have a son. 0:16:43.570 --> 0:16:45.410 Now, I've got a wife, I've got a son. 0:16:46.770 --> 0:16:50.290 The whole family is currently in New York, where Michael's wife, Katie, 0:16:50.330 --> 0:16:53.570 is producing a movie. It turns out that Katie's movie 0:16:53.610 --> 0:16:55.290 is the reason for Michael's update. 0:16:55.450 --> 0:16:58.050 He's the associate producer on the movie. His Name's Dan. 0:16:58.730 --> 0:17:01.770 Michael explains that while out for dinner with Dan, they 0:17:01.770 --> 0:17:05.129 started talking about the industry, by which I mean the 0:17:05.170 --> 0:17:08.689 show business industry. And one of the things people in 0:17:08.730 --> 0:17:12.210 the indie enjoy chatting about most is how they got 0:17:12.250 --> 0:17:15.489 into the industry industry. So Michael told Dan the story 0:17:15.490 --> 0:17:19.369 of the Messenger, about the director Quincy, about the producer 0:17:19.609 --> 0:17:20.770 Pat Crochy. 0:17:20.689 --> 0:17:26.850 And Dan is from Philly. Dan's parents are family friends 0:17:27.090 --> 0:17:28.009 with the Crochies. 0:17:28.689 --> 0:17:34.570 You're kidding. Show biz connections in this life, There's not 0:17:34.649 --> 0:17:37.970 a thing that doesn't come down to show biz connections. 0:17:38.530 --> 0:17:41.330 It's not what you know when you know where you 0:17:41.449 --> 0:17:44.169 know it or why you know it, but whom you know. 0:17:45.290 --> 0:17:48.369 Pat Crochy was the executive producer on the movie, the 0:17:48.369 --> 0:17:51.369 one who ultimately shut it all down. So, with Quincy 0:17:51.449 --> 0:17:54.609 unwilling to talk, he's our best shot at figuring out 0:17:54.649 --> 0:17:57.769 why Quincy had lied. At some point Pat had to 0:17:57.810 --> 0:18:03.649 have demanded an explanation from Quincy. Dan agrees to talk 0:18:03.649 --> 0:18:06.129 to his mom, who agrees to talk to Pat's daughter, 0:18:06.409 --> 0:18:09.369 who agrees to talk with Pat, who then agrees to 0:18:09.409 --> 0:18:14.329 talk with me. Mister Crochy, call me Pat. This is 0:18:14.490 --> 0:18:17.490 Pat Pat Pat Crochy. 0:18:18.010 --> 0:18:20.369 One thing I like to say about your Heavyweight podcast 0:18:20.530 --> 0:18:25.409 is that it always inculcates a high vibrational frequency. 0:18:25.449 --> 0:18:27.609 Can you say more about the high frequency? 0:18:28.369 --> 0:18:30.290 Well in the realm of form? If we're going to 0:18:30.609 --> 0:18:31.729 transcend form. 0:18:31.889 --> 0:18:34.570 Pat Crochy has a white goatee that ends in a 0:18:34.609 --> 0:18:38.090 point at his chest. He's in the Zenden, a large 0:18:38.209 --> 0:18:41.290 room above the barn on his fifty three acre estate. 0:18:41.889 --> 0:18:45.409 His walls are covered in Chinese and Tibetan calligraphy. He 0:18:45.490 --> 0:18:48.889 says that these days he seldom makes any media appearances. 0:18:49.330 --> 0:18:51.169 Is there any reason for that? 0:18:52.050 --> 0:18:55.530 Ah, it's a great question, you interviewer you well. Ten 0:18:55.609 --> 0:18:59.129 years ago, something happened. My mind cracked. 0:18:59.970 --> 0:19:02.289 Pat's mind cracked in a meeting for one of his 0:19:02.369 --> 0:19:06.929 restaurants he owned several, among them the Rum Barrel, which 0:19:06.970 --> 0:19:07.930 is pirate themed. 0:19:08.330 --> 0:19:11.249 And I'm sitting there think it to myself, what the 0:19:11.290 --> 0:19:13.929 hell am I doing here? I don't really give a 0:19:13.970 --> 0:19:16.969 shit about the next great group or sandwich. This is 0:19:17.169 --> 0:19:21.530 just more. I always was seeking more, another win, another 0:19:21.609 --> 0:19:27.449 standing ovation, another best seller, another another more more. There 0:19:27.570 --> 0:19:29.409 was never enough. Never. 0:19:30.609 --> 0:19:33.610 What Pat realized was that in spite of all his successes, 0:19:33.970 --> 0:19:36.770 he wasn't really happy, and so he tried to change 0:19:36.770 --> 0:19:39.650 his way of thinking. But it was a slow process. 0:19:40.010 --> 0:19:43.490 The ego in the was if I can change my mind, 0:19:43.730 --> 0:19:46.369 that'd be another great bestseller and I would go back 0:19:46.409 --> 0:19:49.249 on the speaking gain. It was all ego, all commercial, 0:19:49.409 --> 0:19:59.330 but that's how Grace hooked me. Everything that unfolds is perfect. 0:19:59.369 --> 0:20:03.809 I have this adage, the past has served his purpose perfectly, 0:20:04.250 --> 0:20:06.969 But most people are cherry pickers. Where I wish that 0:20:07.010 --> 0:20:10.850 would have changed, or I wish this, or no. The 0:20:10.889 --> 0:20:15.409 purpose of the past, Jonathan, There's only one purpose to 0:20:15.449 --> 0:20:18.729 bring you and me right here and now. Okay, the 0:20:18.770 --> 0:20:21.090 past is smoke off the end of my cigar. 0:20:22.050 --> 0:20:24.609 For me, the past is also smoke off the end 0:20:24.609 --> 0:20:28.449 of my cigar, juicy wafts of precious smoke to be 0:20:28.570 --> 0:20:32.290 hysterically clod at, like a rabid raccoon attacking a helium 0:20:32.330 --> 0:20:35.729 filled garbage can. And so I asked Pat to go 0:20:35.850 --> 0:20:38.969 back to the past and explain how he became involved 0:20:39.010 --> 0:20:42.570 with Quincy, Michael and the Messenger. He says it all 0:20:42.570 --> 0:20:45.850 began in Key West at the pirate themed museum he 0:20:45.929 --> 0:20:49.969 owned that sat beside the pirate themed restaurant he also owned. 0:20:50.290 --> 0:20:54.010 And you get to know all the piratical personalities on 0:20:54.050 --> 0:20:57.169 that island, one of which was Reef. And Reef is 0:20:57.209 --> 0:21:00.290 a salvager and he's really got a piratical nature. He 0:21:00.330 --> 0:21:02.970 would even dress as a part and I really loved him. 0:21:03.490 --> 0:21:06.810 One day, Reef ast Pat for a favor. Could Pat 0:21:06.850 --> 0:21:09.689 meet with his son, Quincy, who wanted to make a movie. 0:21:09.970 --> 0:21:12.129 And we got talking and he turned me on to 0:21:12.330 --> 0:21:14.410 this script that he has been writing. 0:21:14.449 --> 0:21:15.730 And you liked it? 0:21:16.129 --> 0:21:18.730 Oh? Sure, are you kidding me? It's talking about this 0:21:18.810 --> 0:21:21.649 young boy who has an effect on the ending of 0:21:21.689 --> 0:21:22.409 World War two? 0:21:22.649 --> 0:21:25.289 And you hadn't known that story. I hadn't known that story. 0:21:25.530 --> 0:21:26.769 Oh no, I had never heard of it. 0:21:27.050 --> 0:21:29.169 What was your impression of Quincy when you first met him? 0:21:29.169 --> 0:21:29.289 Oh? 0:21:29.290 --> 0:21:32.050 I liked him and so and I believed everything Quincy 0:21:32.129 --> 0:21:32.489 told me. 0:21:33.570 --> 0:21:37.250 When Quincy's lie came out, Pat was furious prior to. 0:21:37.209 --> 0:21:40.609 Ten years ago before you know, my minecrack. He's lucky 0:21:40.929 --> 0:21:43.290 he didn't cross my path, or else he wouldn't be walking. 0:21:44.330 --> 0:21:46.649 Do you mean that you mean that literally? 0:21:47.850 --> 0:22:05.210 Uh, let's say no, since this is being taped. I'm 0:22:05.250 --> 0:22:08.929 pretty street savvy. I couldn't believe that I got buffalo 0:22:09.250 --> 0:22:12.850 like this as someone I thought was a friend, you know, 0:22:12.929 --> 0:22:16.810 a friend, a Key West friend. I was so hurt 0:22:17.129 --> 0:22:19.489 that I was angry. And when I'm angry, the old 0:22:19.689 --> 0:22:24.890 Pat crocheap, the old corner guy man. Not only did 0:22:24.889 --> 0:22:28.009 I lose the money, but all the contacts that I 0:22:28.129 --> 0:22:30.529 made for him to get him in USA. Today, I 0:22:30.570 --> 0:22:34.170 opened all these doors, through all my relationships, and then 0:22:34.250 --> 0:22:37.409 all of a sudden, when I realized that it was 0:22:37.490 --> 0:22:39.650 a fraud, that it was phony. I mean I had 0:22:39.649 --> 0:22:41.170 to go and apologize to everyone. 0:22:42.129 --> 0:22:44.970 But Pat says that these days he doesn't have time 0:22:45.050 --> 0:22:47.209 for rumination or regret. 0:22:47.409 --> 0:22:51.570 And even though I am here at peace. My body 0:22:52.449 --> 0:22:56.850 has bell marrow cancer. I'm on chemo every twelve hours 0:22:56.850 --> 0:23:01.409 of chemo mets incurable. However, I don't regret that. I 0:23:01.449 --> 0:23:07.730 don't nothing. Oh wow, Jonathan, it's only my body, It's 0:23:07.810 --> 0:23:08.489 not me. 0:23:15.889 --> 0:23:19.090 Before we get off, I ask Pat Michael's burning question, 0:23:19.730 --> 0:23:23.689 why did Quincy lie? But Pat says he doesn't ask 0:23:23.889 --> 0:23:28.290 the why questions only Quincy. Pat says, if he goes deep, 0:23:28.570 --> 0:23:32.609 can answer that. Patt and Quincy haven't spoken for decades. 0:23:33.010 --> 0:23:36.609 Their last interactions were angry ones. Right after Quincy's lie 0:23:36.689 --> 0:23:40.050 came out all the same, Pat offers to reach out 0:23:40.090 --> 0:23:43.369 to Quincy. He contacts a friend who he thinks might 0:23:43.369 --> 0:23:47.049 have Quincy's phone number. I don't have high hopes, but 0:23:47.090 --> 0:23:50.810 Patt and Quincy do end up speaking, and afterwards, for 0:23:50.889 --> 0:23:54.889 reasons I can't discern, Quincy agrees to speak with Michael. 0:24:11.689 --> 0:24:14.929