1 00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:26,450 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Happy birthday to me. 2 00:00:27,130 --> 00:00:27,770 Speaker 2: It was your birthday. 3 00:00:27,810 --> 00:00:29,490 Speaker 3: It was your birthday last week, wasn't it. 4 00:00:29,490 --> 00:00:34,129 Speaker 1: That's kind of why I was phoning. I. 5 00:00:34,129 --> 00:00:35,010 Speaker 4: I'm sorry, buddy. 6 00:00:35,250 --> 00:00:37,090 Speaker 1: It lose to something when you have to call a 7 00:00:37,129 --> 00:00:40,170 Speaker 1: week later to receive to get your own your own 8 00:00:40,210 --> 00:00:42,490 Speaker 1: birthday wish from someone you know, it hurts. 9 00:00:42,810 --> 00:00:46,050 Speaker 3: Okay, Honestly, I feel like your birthdays is that important 10 00:00:46,050 --> 00:00:46,169 Speaker 3: to you? 11 00:00:46,250 --> 00:00:46,690 Speaker 4: Am I wrong? 12 00:00:47,290 --> 00:00:49,290 Speaker 1: Well, it's not as important to me as the first 13 00:00:49,370 --> 00:00:55,250 Speaker 1: night of Kanka and the second night, not the third night. 14 00:00:55,810 --> 00:00:58,730 Speaker 1: I hate the third night. You know what, As a 15 00:00:58,770 --> 00:01:01,729 Speaker 1: birthday present to myself, I'm going to hang up on you. 16 00:01:04,209 --> 00:01:15,690 Speaker 1: Happy birthday to me indeed from Pushkin Industries. I'm Jonathan Goldstein, 17 00:01:15,930 --> 00:01:27,090 Speaker 1: and this is Heavyweight Today's episode The Messenger right after 18 00:01:27,090 --> 00:01:38,929 Speaker 1: the Break. As a kid growing up in Cleveland, Michael 19 00:01:38,970 --> 00:01:44,090 Speaker 1: loved acting. The only problem I wasn't very good. In fact, 20 00:01:44,170 --> 00:01:47,730 Speaker 1: he stank in every summer camp show. He was placed 21 00:01:47,730 --> 00:01:50,730 Speaker 1: in the back row. In a children's production of The 22 00:01:50,770 --> 00:01:54,490 Speaker 1: Hobbit the Musical. Backstage, a kid dressed as a dwarf 23 00:01:54,530 --> 00:01:58,730 Speaker 1: told Michael, my mom says, you're singing is awful. But 24 00:01:58,810 --> 00:02:02,050 Speaker 1: it didn't stop Michael. He nursed his acting bug all 25 00:02:02,090 --> 00:02:05,330 Speaker 1: the way through senior year, when one day he heard 26 00:02:05,370 --> 00:02:08,650 Speaker 1: about a movie being filmed in Cleveland and the director 27 00:02:08,810 --> 00:02:13,050 Speaker 1: needed lots of teens to be extras. Straight after school, 28 00:02:13,210 --> 00:02:16,010 Speaker 1: Michael made his way to the auditions. He was shown 29 00:02:16,049 --> 00:02:18,490 Speaker 1: into a room with the director and some of the crew. 30 00:02:19,050 --> 00:02:21,930 Speaker 1: They gave him a script and he started acting. 31 00:02:22,330 --> 00:02:26,690 Speaker 5: And their eyes lit up, and I was asked to 32 00:02:26,770 --> 00:02:29,690 Speaker 5: keep reading, and so we did the scene again. 33 00:02:30,370 --> 00:02:34,050 Speaker 1: We did it again and again and again, and all 34 00:02:34,130 --> 00:02:37,450 Speaker 1: the while Michael was overcome by a curious feeling. 35 00:02:37,890 --> 00:02:38,850 Speaker 5: I was doing a good job. 36 00:02:39,130 --> 00:02:42,210 Speaker 1: Had you ever experienced this before, like, been in an 37 00:02:42,250 --> 00:02:44,570 Speaker 1: audition where people were responding this way? 38 00:02:45,850 --> 00:02:49,850 Speaker 5: No, No, I was usually in auditions where they're like, 39 00:02:50,650 --> 00:02:53,130 Speaker 5: we can make him a tree. 40 00:02:57,010 --> 00:02:59,650 Speaker 1: At the end of the audition, the director told Michael 41 00:02:59,690 --> 00:03:02,450 Speaker 1: that he was not going to be an extra. Michael 42 00:03:02,770 --> 00:03:04,970 Speaker 1: was going to be the star of the whole movie. 43 00:03:05,890 --> 00:03:07,570 Speaker 1: Why was he going to be the star of the 44 00:03:07,610 --> 00:03:11,290 Speaker 1: whole movie? Was it his brando esque brooding, his Shia 45 00:03:11,330 --> 00:03:12,770 Speaker 1: la Buffian intensity. 46 00:03:13,410 --> 00:03:18,850 Speaker 5: They showed me the storyboard and I looked exactly like 47 00:03:19,130 --> 00:03:22,930 Speaker 5: the kid in the drawings of the storyboard. That's the 48 00:03:22,970 --> 00:03:25,210 Speaker 5: reason I got it. They were just like you look 49 00:03:25,290 --> 00:03:26,170 Speaker 5: like the kid we drew. 50 00:03:27,330 --> 00:03:30,810 Speaker 1: The film was called The Messenger, based on a true story, 51 00:03:31,450 --> 00:03:34,170 Speaker 1: and the true story it was based on was a 52 00:03:34,170 --> 00:03:37,970 Speaker 1: little known World War II anecdote about a teenager named 53 00:03:37,970 --> 00:03:43,210 Speaker 1: Thomas E. Jones. Jones was a telegram messenger in Washington, DC. 54 00:03:44,250 --> 00:03:47,530 Speaker 1: On August fourteenth, nineteen forty five. He was sent to 55 00:03:47,610 --> 00:03:52,130 Speaker 1: deliver the telegram that announced Japan's unconditional surrender to the Allies, 56 00:03:52,770 --> 00:03:55,450 Speaker 1: but on the way to deliver the message, he got 57 00:03:55,450 --> 00:03:59,210 Speaker 1: pulled over for an illegal U turn, and thus the 58 00:03:59,330 --> 00:04:02,730 Speaker 1: end of World War Two was delayed by ten minutes. 59 00:04:03,770 --> 00:04:06,650 Speaker 1: Michael played the role of Thomas as he navigated that 60 00:04:06,730 --> 00:04:07,410 Speaker 1: fateful day. 61 00:04:08,010 --> 00:04:10,890 Speaker 5: I show up to set and I just was immediately 62 00:04:11,250 --> 00:04:13,890 Speaker 5: involved in the magic of film. And they had to 63 00:04:14,210 --> 00:04:17,050 Speaker 5: fake the daylight by putting lights outside the window. And 64 00:04:17,370 --> 00:04:20,330 Speaker 5: I remember being like, Oh, you're not just like capturing 65 00:04:20,370 --> 00:04:22,650 Speaker 5: a moment, You're creating a moment. 66 00:04:23,529 --> 00:04:26,849 Speaker 1: And the custodian of this exciting new world. The director 67 00:04:26,890 --> 00:04:29,289 Speaker 1: of the movie was a twenty five year old wonder 68 00:04:29,369 --> 00:04:34,889 Speaker 1: kid named Quincy. Quincy took to Michael immediately. Throughout the production, 69 00:04:35,169 --> 00:04:37,370 Speaker 1: he check in with Michael on the phone and take 70 00:04:37,450 --> 00:04:40,689 Speaker 1: him out for wings. Michael looked up to Quincy to. 71 00:04:40,729 --> 00:04:45,249 Speaker 5: Meet someone who was orchestrating this giant production and then 72 00:04:45,330 --> 00:04:48,049 Speaker 5: for him to take time talk to me. 73 00:04:48,289 --> 00:04:52,329 Speaker 1: I felt part of Even after filming wrapped, Quincy stayed 74 00:04:52,330 --> 00:04:55,769 Speaker 1: in touch, calling Michael with updates about the movie's release. 75 00:04:56,369 --> 00:05:00,010 Speaker 5: We were going to premiere at the Philadelphia Film Festival. 76 00:05:00,529 --> 00:05:03,689 Speaker 5: I learned that it was a big production, one hundred 77 00:05:03,770 --> 00:05:06,089 Speaker 5: thousand dollars short film, which is a lot of money 78 00:05:06,250 --> 00:05:10,050 Speaker 5: for a short movie. The executive producer was this man 79 00:05:10,130 --> 00:05:11,049 Speaker 5: named Pat. 80 00:05:10,810 --> 00:05:15,450 Speaker 1: Croche Pat pad Pad if you don't know the name. 81 00:05:15,890 --> 00:05:19,689 Speaker 1: Pat Croche was a media presence, an entrepreneur, famous in 82 00:05:19,729 --> 00:05:22,770 Speaker 1: the world of sports because he owned the Philadelphia seventy 83 00:05:22,849 --> 00:05:29,009 Speaker 1: six ers in the late nineties. He was a motivational speaker. 84 00:05:29,049 --> 00:05:31,250 Speaker 2: I get up, I slap my palms together, It's going 85 00:05:31,330 --> 00:05:32,450 Speaker 2: to be a great. 86 00:05:32,250 --> 00:05:34,689 Speaker 1: Day, a noted pirate enthusiast. 87 00:05:34,810 --> 00:05:37,690 Speaker 2: People ask me if I'm a pirate, and I say yes, 88 00:05:38,210 --> 00:05:39,930 Speaker 2: but three hundred years too late. 89 00:05:40,169 --> 00:05:43,570 Speaker 1: And the kind of beloved pre me too, macho man 90 00:05:43,690 --> 00:05:46,289 Speaker 1: who'd show up unannounced on the set of the local 91 00:05:46,369 --> 00:05:49,849 Speaker 1: news just to scoop the anchor woman up into his arms. 92 00:05:49,810 --> 00:05:51,050 Speaker 5: Accident on the jersey term. 93 00:05:51,089 --> 00:05:56,650 Speaker 1: I guess, oh my god, because when you have that 94 00:05:56,810 --> 00:05:59,370 Speaker 1: much joi de vivre, what choice do you have? 95 00:05:59,570 --> 00:06:01,370 Speaker 6: You know, whatever Pat comes in the room, you never 96 00:06:01,369 --> 00:06:01,809 Speaker 6: know what's. 97 00:06:01,650 --> 00:06:09,770 Speaker 5: Gonna happen, rules because Pat crochy, because he's involved. The 98 00:06:09,810 --> 00:06:11,009 Speaker 5: movie gets a lot. 99 00:06:10,849 --> 00:06:14,169 Speaker 1: Of press for a short film by an unknown director. 100 00:06:14,529 --> 00:06:18,249 Speaker 1: The Messenger received an unheard of amount of press. ESPN 101 00:06:18,330 --> 00:06:21,169 Speaker 1: carried a story with footage of Michael on set, and 102 00:06:21,210 --> 00:06:24,049 Speaker 1: there was a huge write up in USA Today. My 103 00:06:24,210 --> 00:06:24,810 Speaker 1: dad was. 104 00:06:24,810 --> 00:06:27,690 Speaker 5: Flying that day. You know, he's in an airport. He 105 00:06:27,729 --> 00:06:30,610 Speaker 5: picks up the USA Today. He flips it open and sees, 106 00:06:30,690 --> 00:06:34,010 Speaker 5: you know, a two page spread with my picture on it. 107 00:06:34,169 --> 00:06:37,409 Speaker 5: So the family's excitement, the friend's excitement. Everyone starts to 108 00:06:37,450 --> 00:06:39,169 Speaker 5: just be like, this is a very big deal. 109 00:06:39,849 --> 00:06:42,610 Speaker 1: Michael was planning on college in the fall, but as 110 00:06:42,650 --> 00:06:46,130 Speaker 1: anticipation around the movie grew, he started to reconsider. 111 00:06:49,729 --> 00:06:52,729 Speaker 5: Leading up to the Philadelphia Film Festival, talking to Quincy, 112 00:06:52,969 --> 00:06:56,529 Speaker 5: He's like, Tom Hanks wants to meet with you. This 113 00:06:56,729 --> 00:06:59,969 Speaker 5: is a real chance, this is a real opportunity. This 114 00:07:00,010 --> 00:07:03,729 Speaker 5: is bigger than I imagined. I was like, maybe maybe 115 00:07:03,729 --> 00:07:05,650 Speaker 5: I try and pursue acting. 116 00:07:06,489 --> 00:07:09,930 Speaker 1: Maybe Michael had been wrong all these years everyone had 117 00:07:09,970 --> 00:07:13,210 Speaker 1: been Maybe he really was a good actor, and it 118 00:07:13,250 --> 00:07:19,730 Speaker 1: took Quincy to discover it. Michael couldn't wait to walk 119 00:07:19,770 --> 00:07:22,890 Speaker 1: the red carpet, see himself on the big screen, and 120 00:07:23,050 --> 00:07:25,610 Speaker 1: enjoy a virgin appleteini with Tom Hanks. 121 00:07:26,090 --> 00:07:28,929 Speaker 5: Did your parents come with you to the premiere? Well, 122 00:07:29,530 --> 00:07:33,410 Speaker 5: we didn't make it to the premiere. The movie was canceled. 123 00:07:38,369 --> 00:07:43,569 Speaker 5: So the week before the Philadelphia Film Festival premiere, I 124 00:07:43,570 --> 00:07:49,370 Speaker 5: got a phone call from Quincy and he was clearly crying, 125 00:07:50,210 --> 00:07:54,010 Speaker 5: and he told me that the movie wasn't going to 126 00:07:54,090 --> 00:07:58,369 Speaker 5: come out and nobody was going to see it. Because 127 00:07:59,130 --> 00:08:04,530 Speaker 5: it turns out that Quincy had lied and had told 128 00:08:04,530 --> 00:08:05,650 Speaker 5: a really big lie. 129 00:08:06,250 --> 00:08:08,770 Speaker 1: The lie Michael's referring to had nothing to do with 130 00:08:08,890 --> 00:08:13,210 Speaker 1: his historical anecdote itself. That part was true, But over 131 00:08:13,210 --> 00:08:16,689 Speaker 1: the end credits, Quincy played footage of the actual present 132 00:08:16,730 --> 00:08:20,929 Speaker 1: day Thomas E. Jones being interviewed on his deathbed. The 133 00:08:20,970 --> 00:08:22,650 Speaker 1: only problem. 134 00:08:22,290 --> 00:08:24,170 Speaker 5: That guy was an actor. 135 00:08:27,250 --> 00:08:29,850 Speaker 1: It seems Quincy had just found a random old man, 136 00:08:30,050 --> 00:08:33,170 Speaker 1: slipped him into a gown, strapped him into a hospital bed, 137 00:08:33,330 --> 00:08:37,530 Speaker 1: and christened him Thomas e Jones. But there was one 138 00:08:37,570 --> 00:08:39,130 Speaker 1: thing Quincy wasn't counting on. 139 00:08:39,929 --> 00:08:44,410 Speaker 5: Because the movie had received so much attention, Thomas E 140 00:08:44,530 --> 00:08:47,250 Speaker 5: Jones's real family found. 141 00:08:47,010 --> 00:08:51,130 Speaker 1: Out, and Thomas E Jones's real family wasn't happy because, 142 00:08:51,170 --> 00:08:53,809 Speaker 1: as it turned out, the real Thomas E Jones was 143 00:08:53,970 --> 00:08:58,650 Speaker 1: very much alive, breathing, eating, sleeping, and not on a 144 00:08:58,690 --> 00:09:02,330 Speaker 1: deathbed but just a regular old bedbed, and so Pat 145 00:09:02,370 --> 00:09:04,210 Speaker 1: Crochey decided to pull the movie. 146 00:09:04,890 --> 00:09:08,570 Speaker 5: I mean, it was crushing disappointment. I had the ticket 147 00:09:08,610 --> 00:09:11,010 Speaker 5: to go, I had the suit, I had all the 148 00:09:11,090 --> 00:09:14,850 Speaker 5: expectation I had in my brain, everything that could be 149 00:09:15,130 --> 00:09:19,290 Speaker 5: possible after and it's all gone, it's all it vanishes. 150 00:09:19,850 --> 00:09:23,170 Speaker 5: And then it's a wave of embarrassment because I have 151 00:09:23,250 --> 00:09:25,130 Speaker 5: to tell everybody. 152 00:09:25,330 --> 00:09:28,010 Speaker 1: Michael had to go back to his friend's family, his 153 00:09:28,090 --> 00:09:31,850 Speaker 1: grandmother who'd been clipping every article about the movie, and say, 154 00:09:32,410 --> 00:09:34,730 Speaker 1: remember how I was going to be a big movie star. 155 00:09:35,330 --> 00:09:37,690 Speaker 1: It was all a fraud. And the guy who thought 156 00:09:37,730 --> 00:09:40,050 Speaker 1: I had talent also a fraud. 157 00:09:40,610 --> 00:09:42,970 Speaker 5: And I never talked to Quincy again. 158 00:09:44,170 --> 00:09:47,570 Speaker 1: Michael abandoned his dream of becoming an actor, but his 159 00:09:47,650 --> 00:09:50,690 Speaker 1: time on The Messengers still had its impact. It allowed 160 00:09:50,730 --> 00:09:53,010 Speaker 1: him to realize how much he loved being on a set, 161 00:09:53,370 --> 00:09:56,330 Speaker 1: loved the magic of creating a whole world from thin air, 162 00:09:56,890 --> 00:09:59,850 Speaker 1: and that pushed him towards a career in TV, writing 163 00:09:59,890 --> 00:10:05,050 Speaker 1: for shows on Disney and Nickelodeon. Meanwhile, Quincy's IMDb credits 164 00:10:05,210 --> 00:10:06,130 Speaker 1: have grown sparse. 165 00:10:06,530 --> 00:10:09,930 Speaker 5: I always wondered what happened to Quincy becau to him. 166 00:10:10,130 --> 00:10:11,610 Speaker 5: There was part of me that wanted to tell him 167 00:10:11,610 --> 00:10:16,770 Speaker 5: that I've like succeeded, that I've pursued movies because of him. 168 00:10:17,130 --> 00:10:20,410 Speaker 1: But along with that, Michael has a lingering question for Quincy. 169 00:10:21,010 --> 00:10:24,850 Speaker 5: I never understood why you would take such a big 170 00:10:24,970 --> 00:10:28,370 Speaker 5: risk like that to make such a big line. It's 171 00:10:28,410 --> 00:10:30,450 Speaker 5: like you've set up a film crew to film this 172 00:10:30,490 --> 00:10:32,690 Speaker 5: guy on his deathbed and it wasn't like it just 173 00:10:32,730 --> 00:10:34,890 Speaker 5: seems like a bad plan. 174 00:10:35,890 --> 00:10:38,610 Speaker 1: As Michael has climbed the ranks of show business, this 175 00:10:38,730 --> 00:10:42,810 Speaker 1: question has only gained in poignance. Why risk your reputation, 176 00:10:43,530 --> 00:10:45,850 Speaker 1: especially when the story was good enough as it was. 177 00:10:47,330 --> 00:10:48,290 Speaker 5: Why did you lie. 178 00:10:49,810 --> 00:10:54,490 Speaker 1: After the break searching for Quincy to become the messengers messenger? 179 00:10:55,050 --> 00:10:59,730 Speaker 1: But first, the best messages of all promotional messages from 180 00:10:59,810 --> 00:11:04,370 Speaker 1: our cherished sponsors, We really do love you guys ill 181 00:11:04,890 --> 00:11:08,850 Speaker 1: two gross. It's a little gross, eh, keep it in. 182 00:11:28,650 --> 00:11:31,809 Speaker 1: Why did Quincy lie? The more I think about it, 183 00:11:31,930 --> 00:11:34,570 Speaker 1: the less sense it all makes. Why go to the 184 00:11:34,610 --> 00:11:37,810 Speaker 1: trouble of hiring an old man and building a hospital set? 185 00:11:38,250 --> 00:11:40,730 Speaker 1: Why not just use the real Thomas E Jones? 186 00:11:44,250 --> 00:11:44,570 Speaker 7: Hello? 187 00:11:45,130 --> 00:11:48,330 Speaker 1: Oh, hello, my name is Jonathan Gould. I've so far 188 00:11:48,410 --> 00:11:51,050 Speaker 1: been unable to contact Quincy, so I reach out to 189 00:11:51,130 --> 00:11:53,410 Speaker 1: someone else who might have the answer. I was looking 190 00:11:53,450 --> 00:11:55,010 Speaker 1: for a Thomas E. Jones. 191 00:11:56,050 --> 00:11:56,930 Speaker 7: He's deceased. 192 00:11:57,570 --> 00:11:59,090 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm very sorry. 193 00:12:00,050 --> 00:12:04,970 Speaker 7: Yes, I'm his widow. When he died, we would have 194 00:12:04,970 --> 00:12:06,650 Speaker 7: been married almost seventy years. 195 00:12:08,050 --> 00:12:12,130 Speaker 1: Thomas's widow, Nancy, is eighty nine years old. She says 196 00:12:12,170 --> 00:12:15,210 Speaker 1: she doesn't know why Quincy didn't just go to Thomas himself, 197 00:12:15,810 --> 00:12:17,730 Speaker 1: But we get to talking and she tells me the 198 00:12:17,770 --> 00:12:20,770 Speaker 1: story of how she first met Thomas. It was through 199 00:12:20,850 --> 00:12:24,130 Speaker 1: his work as a messenger. It turns out Nancy's father 200 00:12:24,290 --> 00:12:27,730 Speaker 1: was Thomas's boss at the telegram office. She tells me 201 00:12:27,850 --> 00:12:30,970 Speaker 1: how in nineteen forty five, there was a dedicated telegraph 202 00:12:31,050 --> 00:12:34,450 Speaker 1: machine standing by for the sole purpose of awaiting the 203 00:12:34,530 --> 00:12:36,170 Speaker 1: Japanese surrender. 204 00:12:36,210 --> 00:12:41,210 Speaker 7: And when that machine started ticking my father. He handed 205 00:12:41,290 --> 00:12:44,650 Speaker 7: his message first to my husband, who was a bicycle 206 00:12:44,690 --> 00:12:46,730 Speaker 7: messenger at sixteen years of age. 207 00:12:47,370 --> 00:12:50,410 Speaker 1: Since the bike was too slow for such an important message, 208 00:12:50,530 --> 00:12:54,570 Speaker 1: a coworker agreed to drive Thomas in his car. Unfortunately, 209 00:12:54,770 --> 00:12:57,850 Speaker 1: he set out in the wrong direction, and thus the 210 00:12:57,890 --> 00:13:01,810 Speaker 1: most famous U turn in American history, or at least 211 00:13:01,850 --> 00:13:04,250 Speaker 1: the only one I've ever heard of, and I've read 212 00:13:04,290 --> 00:13:07,610 Speaker 1: my Howard Zinn. The U turn got Thomas and his 213 00:13:07,730 --> 00:13:10,370 Speaker 1: driver pulled over by a cap Of course. 214 00:13:10,090 --> 00:13:12,530 Speaker 7: They were saying, we've got the Japanese piece a render 215 00:13:12,610 --> 00:13:15,050 Speaker 7: message here. Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories. But 216 00:13:15,730 --> 00:13:18,330 Speaker 7: the police realized it was the truth. They just pore 217 00:13:18,450 --> 00:13:19,050 Speaker 7: up the ticket. 218 00:13:19,530 --> 00:13:23,170 Speaker 1: Wow, what a story is. Yeah, and it's a pretty 219 00:13:23,170 --> 00:13:26,770 Speaker 1: different story than the one in the Messenger. Not only 220 00:13:26,810 --> 00:13:29,690 Speaker 1: were the Joneses angry about the fake Thomas, but they 221 00:13:29,730 --> 00:13:32,850 Speaker 1: were also angry about what they considered the fake story. 222 00:13:33,410 --> 00:13:36,690 Speaker 1: In Quincy's version of events, Thomas is in no hurry 223 00:13:36,770 --> 00:13:39,850 Speaker 1: to deliver the message. He makes a casual pit stop 224 00:13:39,890 --> 00:13:42,610 Speaker 1: at a diner, where he hits on the waitress and 225 00:13:42,770 --> 00:13:46,570 Speaker 1: enjoys a large breakfast of pancakes, all while the war 226 00:13:46,730 --> 00:13:49,970 Speaker 1: rages on the Jones has read about that scene in 227 00:13:49,970 --> 00:13:53,410 Speaker 1: the media coverage of Quincy's movie, Newspaper write ups with 228 00:13:53,490 --> 00:13:57,410 Speaker 1: headlines like boys, pancake breakfast delayed the end of World 229 00:13:57,410 --> 00:14:00,010 Speaker 1: War Two. 230 00:14:01,210 --> 00:14:04,450 Speaker 7: Well, you know, my kids were just serious about that. 231 00:14:06,010 --> 00:14:09,490 Speaker 7: Talking about kids, We're talking about people now sixty years old. 232 00:14:10,650 --> 00:14:12,730 Speaker 3: We were outraged. The kids were outraged. 233 00:14:13,530 --> 00:14:17,130 Speaker 1: This is Victoria Jones. She's one of Thomas and Nancy's 234 00:14:17,170 --> 00:14:20,610 Speaker 1: six children, all of whom when it came to the messenger, 235 00:14:21,010 --> 00:14:22,330 Speaker 1: were in agreement. 236 00:14:22,090 --> 00:14:24,690 Speaker 8: Which was unusual for the six of us. 237 00:14:25,450 --> 00:14:28,810 Speaker 1: This is Thomas's son, Mike Jones. He says that the 238 00:14:28,850 --> 00:14:31,690 Speaker 1: only one inclined to let the whole thing go was 239 00:14:31,730 --> 00:14:32,690 Speaker 1: Thomas himself. 240 00:14:33,050 --> 00:14:35,410 Speaker 8: That was kind of my dad's attitude, like, oh, don't 241 00:14:35,410 --> 00:14:37,690 Speaker 8: make a big deal, don't get this person in trouble. 242 00:14:37,890 --> 00:14:40,970 Speaker 3: We said, no, this is altering history. 243 00:14:41,170 --> 00:14:43,370 Speaker 8: It just kind of portrayed him like as the slacker, 244 00:14:43,450 --> 00:14:44,850 Speaker 8: you know, like, oh, the heck with that, I'm going 245 00:14:44,930 --> 00:14:47,610 Speaker 8: to go and flirt and eat pancakes. 246 00:14:52,010 --> 00:14:55,290 Speaker 1: Victoria says that although Quincy never reached out to her father, 247 00:14:55,810 --> 00:14:56,810 Speaker 1: he easily. 248 00:14:56,450 --> 00:14:59,330 Speaker 3: Could have, just like you found my mother by getting 249 00:14:59,330 --> 00:15:02,210 Speaker 3: a few phone calls, Quincy could have found my father, 250 00:15:02,850 --> 00:15:04,010 Speaker 3: and he never tried. 251 00:15:04,730 --> 00:15:07,890 Speaker 1: When she found out about the movie, Victoria messaged Quincy 252 00:15:08,010 --> 00:15:11,570 Speaker 1: several times, but she says he grew defensive and eventually 253 00:15:11,650 --> 00:15:12,490 Speaker 1: stopped answering. 254 00:15:12,970 --> 00:15:15,970 Speaker 3: And then when my father died, I sent him a 255 00:15:16,010 --> 00:15:18,770 Speaker 3: message and said my father is now deceased. 256 00:15:19,770 --> 00:15:21,850 Speaker 1: Huh. And he did not respond to that. 257 00:15:22,690 --> 00:15:26,010 Speaker 3: No, I should go back and look. He might have said, 258 00:15:26,010 --> 00:15:27,210 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, and that was it. 259 00:15:28,170 --> 00:15:30,890 Speaker 1: I tell the Joneses the story about Michael and how 260 00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:32,610 Speaker 1: I'm trying to reach Quincy myself. 261 00:15:32,970 --> 00:15:33,890 Speaker 3: Good luck with that one. 262 00:15:34,090 --> 00:15:37,650 Speaker 7: I'm sure he'll take this better left of dead story 263 00:15:37,810 --> 00:15:38,210 Speaker 7: out too. 264 00:15:45,370 --> 00:15:48,530 Speaker 1: It turns out Nancy Jones is right. When I finally 265 00:15:48,530 --> 00:15:52,210 Speaker 1: get through to Quincy via email, his response is emphatic. 266 00:15:52,810 --> 00:15:56,490 Speaker 1: I'm not interested in talking about that project anymore, he writes, 267 00:15:57,250 --> 00:16:06,210 Speaker 1: And that's the last I hear from Quincy. What happens 268 00:16:06,250 --> 00:16:10,570 Speaker 1: next is years go by, unrelated to my failure to 269 00:16:10,610 --> 00:16:14,570 Speaker 1: speak with Quincy. But you never know. Heavyweight is canceled 270 00:16:14,650 --> 00:16:17,690 Speaker 1: and I lose my job. And while the story never 271 00:16:17,850 --> 00:16:21,730 Speaker 1: entirely leaves my mind, without an ergonomic office chair and 272 00:16:21,770 --> 00:16:24,570 Speaker 1: a long distance phone plan, there's not much I could 273 00:16:24,610 --> 00:16:27,770 Speaker 1: do about it. And then one day, while trying to 274 00:16:27,770 --> 00:16:30,890 Speaker 1: decide on a fun font for my resume, I receive 275 00:16:30,930 --> 00:16:34,330 Speaker 1: a message from Michael. He says he has an important 276 00:16:34,450 --> 00:16:38,330 Speaker 1: update to share. Hey Jonathan, Hey Michael, how are you good? 277 00:16:38,410 --> 00:16:39,050 Speaker 5: How are you doing? 278 00:16:39,570 --> 00:16:42,490 Speaker 1: It's been almost three years since Michael and I have spoken. 279 00:16:42,930 --> 00:16:43,530 Speaker 1: You have a son. 280 00:16:43,570 --> 00:16:45,410 Speaker 5: Now, I've got a wife, I've got a son. 281 00:16:46,770 --> 00:16:50,290 Speaker 1: The whole family is currently in New York, where Michael's wife, Katie, 282 00:16:50,330 --> 00:16:53,570 Speaker 1: is producing a movie. It turns out that Katie's movie 283 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:55,290 Speaker 1: is the reason for Michael's update. 284 00:16:55,450 --> 00:16:58,050 Speaker 5: He's the associate producer on the movie. His Name's Dan. 285 00:16:58,730 --> 00:17:01,770 Speaker 1: Michael explains that while out for dinner with Dan, they 286 00:17:01,770 --> 00:17:05,129 Speaker 1: started talking about the industry, by which I mean the 287 00:17:05,170 --> 00:17:08,689 Speaker 1: show business industry. And one of the things people in 288 00:17:08,730 --> 00:17:12,210 Speaker 1: the indie enjoy chatting about most is how they got 289 00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:15,489 Speaker 1: into the industry industry. So Michael told Dan the story 290 00:17:15,490 --> 00:17:19,369 Speaker 1: of the Messenger, about the director Quincy, about the producer 291 00:17:19,609 --> 00:17:20,770 Speaker 1: Pat Crochy. 292 00:17:20,689 --> 00:17:26,850 Speaker 5: And Dan is from Philly. Dan's parents are family friends 293 00:17:27,090 --> 00:17:28,009 Speaker 5: with the Crochies. 294 00:17:28,689 --> 00:17:34,570 Speaker 1: You're kidding. Show biz connections in this life, There's not 295 00:17:34,649 --> 00:17:37,970 Speaker 1: a thing that doesn't come down to show biz connections. 296 00:17:38,530 --> 00:17:41,330 Speaker 1: It's not what you know when you know where you 297 00:17:41,449 --> 00:17:44,169 Speaker 1: know it or why you know it, but whom you know. 298 00:17:45,290 --> 00:17:48,369 Speaker 1: Pat Crochy was the executive producer on the movie, the 299 00:17:48,369 --> 00:17:51,369 Speaker 1: one who ultimately shut it all down. So, with Quincy 300 00:17:51,449 --> 00:17:54,609 Speaker 1: unwilling to talk, he's our best shot at figuring out 301 00:17:54,649 --> 00:17:57,769 Speaker 1: why Quincy had lied. At some point Pat had to 302 00:17:57,810 --> 00:18:03,649 Speaker 1: have demanded an explanation from Quincy. Dan agrees to talk 303 00:18:03,649 --> 00:18:06,129 Speaker 1: to his mom, who agrees to talk to Pat's daughter, 304 00:18:06,409 --> 00:18:09,369 Speaker 1: who agrees to talk with Pat, who then agrees to 305 00:18:09,409 --> 00:18:14,329 Speaker 1: talk with me. Mister Crochy, call me Pat. This is 306 00:18:14,490 --> 00:18:17,490 Speaker 1: Pat Pat Pat Crochy. 307 00:18:18,010 --> 00:18:20,369 Speaker 2: One thing I like to say about your Heavyweight podcast 308 00:18:20,530 --> 00:18:25,409 Speaker 2: is that it always inculcates a high vibrational frequency. 309 00:18:25,449 --> 00:18:27,609 Speaker 1: Can you say more about the high frequency? 310 00:18:28,369 --> 00:18:30,290 Speaker 2: Well in the realm of form? If we're going to 311 00:18:30,609 --> 00:18:31,729 Speaker 2: transcend form. 312 00:18:31,889 --> 00:18:34,570 Speaker 1: Pat Crochy has a white goatee that ends in a 313 00:18:34,609 --> 00:18:38,090 Speaker 1: point at his chest. He's in the Zenden, a large 314 00:18:38,209 --> 00:18:41,290 Speaker 1: room above the barn on his fifty three acre estate. 315 00:18:41,889 --> 00:18:45,409 Speaker 1: His walls are covered in Chinese and Tibetan calligraphy. He 316 00:18:45,490 --> 00:18:48,889 Speaker 1: says that these days he seldom makes any media appearances. 317 00:18:49,330 --> 00:18:51,169 Speaker 1: Is there any reason for that? 318 00:18:52,050 --> 00:18:55,530 Speaker 2: Ah, it's a great question, you interviewer you well. Ten 319 00:18:55,609 --> 00:18:59,129 Speaker 2: years ago, something happened. My mind cracked. 320 00:18:59,970 --> 00:19:02,289 Speaker 1: Pat's mind cracked in a meeting for one of his 321 00:19:02,369 --> 00:19:06,929 Speaker 1: restaurants he owned several, among them the Rum Barrel, which 322 00:19:06,970 --> 00:19:07,930 Speaker 1: is pirate themed. 323 00:19:08,330 --> 00:19:11,249 Speaker 2: And I'm sitting there think it to myself, what the 324 00:19:11,290 --> 00:19:13,929 Speaker 2: hell am I doing here? I don't really give a 325 00:19:13,970 --> 00:19:16,969 Speaker 2: shit about the next great group or sandwich. This is 326 00:19:17,169 --> 00:19:21,530 Speaker 2: just more. I always was seeking more, another win, another 327 00:19:21,609 --> 00:19:27,449 Speaker 2: standing ovation, another best seller, another another more more. There 328 00:19:27,570 --> 00:19:29,409 Speaker 2: was never enough. Never. 329 00:19:30,609 --> 00:19:33,610 Speaker 1: What Pat realized was that in spite of all his successes, 330 00:19:33,970 --> 00:19:36,770 Speaker 1: he wasn't really happy, and so he tried to change 331 00:19:36,770 --> 00:19:39,650 Speaker 1: his way of thinking. But it was a slow process. 332 00:19:40,010 --> 00:19:43,490 Speaker 2: The ego in the was if I can change my mind, 333 00:19:43,730 --> 00:19:46,369 Speaker 2: that'd be another great bestseller and I would go back 334 00:19:46,409 --> 00:19:49,249 Speaker 2: on the speaking gain. It was all ego, all commercial, 335 00:19:49,409 --> 00:19:59,330 Speaker 2: but that's how Grace hooked me. Everything that unfolds is perfect. 336 00:19:59,369 --> 00:20:03,809 Speaker 2: I have this adage, the past has served his purpose perfectly, 337 00:20:04,250 --> 00:20:06,969 Speaker 2: But most people are cherry pickers. Where I wish that 338 00:20:07,010 --> 00:20:10,850 Speaker 2: would have changed, or I wish this, or no. The 339 00:20:10,889 --> 00:20:15,409 Speaker 2: purpose of the past, Jonathan, There's only one purpose to 340 00:20:15,449 --> 00:20:18,729 Speaker 2: bring you and me right here and now. Okay, the 341 00:20:18,770 --> 00:20:21,090 Speaker 2: past is smoke off the end of my cigar. 342 00:20:22,050 --> 00:20:24,609 Speaker 1: For me, the past is also smoke off the end 343 00:20:24,609 --> 00:20:28,449 Speaker 1: of my cigar, juicy wafts of precious smoke to be 344 00:20:28,570 --> 00:20:32,290 Speaker 1: hysterically clod at, like a rabid raccoon attacking a helium 345 00:20:32,330 --> 00:20:35,729 Speaker 1: filled garbage can. And so I asked Pat to go 346 00:20:35,850 --> 00:20:38,969 Speaker 1: back to the past and explain how he became involved 347 00:20:39,010 --> 00:20:42,570 Speaker 1: with Quincy, Michael and the Messenger. He says it all 348 00:20:42,570 --> 00:20:45,850 Speaker 1: began in Key West at the pirate themed museum he 349 00:20:45,929 --> 00:20:49,969 Speaker 1: owned that sat beside the pirate themed restaurant he also owned. 350 00:20:50,290 --> 00:20:54,010 Speaker 2: And you get to know all the piratical personalities on 351 00:20:54,050 --> 00:20:57,169 Speaker 2: that island, one of which was Reef. And Reef is 352 00:20:57,209 --> 00:21:00,290 Speaker 2: a salvager and he's really got a piratical nature. He 353 00:21:00,330 --> 00:21:02,970 Speaker 2: would even dress as a part and I really loved him. 354 00:21:03,490 --> 00:21:06,810 Speaker 1: One day, Reef ast Pat for a favor. Could Pat 355 00:21:06,850 --> 00:21:09,689 Speaker 1: meet with his son, Quincy, who wanted to make a movie. 356 00:21:09,970 --> 00:21:12,129 Speaker 2: And we got talking and he turned me on to 357 00:21:12,330 --> 00:21:14,410 Speaker 2: this script that he has been writing. 358 00:21:14,449 --> 00:21:15,730 Speaker 1: And you liked it? 359 00:21:16,129 --> 00:21:18,730 Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, are you kidding me? It's talking about this 360 00:21:18,810 --> 00:21:21,649 Speaker 2: young boy who has an effect on the ending of 361 00:21:21,689 --> 00:21:22,409 Speaker 2: World War two? 362 00:21:22,649 --> 00:21:25,289 Speaker 1: And you hadn't known that story. I hadn't known that story. 363 00:21:25,530 --> 00:21:26,769 Speaker 2: Oh no, I had never heard of it. 364 00:21:27,050 --> 00:21:29,169 Speaker 1: What was your impression of Quincy when you first met him? 365 00:21:29,169 --> 00:21:29,289 Speaker 4: Oh? 366 00:21:29,290 --> 00:21:32,050 Speaker 2: I liked him and so and I believed everything Quincy 367 00:21:32,129 --> 00:21:32,489 Speaker 2: told me. 368 00:21:33,570 --> 00:21:37,250 Speaker 1: When Quincy's lie came out, Pat was furious prior to. 369 00:21:37,209 --> 00:21:40,609 Speaker 2: Ten years ago before you know, my minecrack. He's lucky 370 00:21:40,929 --> 00:21:43,290 Speaker 2: he didn't cross my path, or else he wouldn't be walking. 371 00:21:44,330 --> 00:21:46,649 Speaker 1: Do you mean that you mean that literally? 372 00:21:47,850 --> 00:22:05,210 Speaker 2: Uh, let's say no, since this is being taped. I'm 373 00:22:05,250 --> 00:22:08,929 Speaker 2: pretty street savvy. I couldn't believe that I got buffalo 374 00:22:09,250 --> 00:22:12,850 Speaker 2: like this as someone I thought was a friend, you know, 375 00:22:12,929 --> 00:22:16,810 Speaker 2: a friend, a Key West friend. I was so hurt 376 00:22:17,129 --> 00:22:19,489 Speaker 2: that I was angry. And when I'm angry, the old 377 00:22:19,689 --> 00:22:24,890 Speaker 2: Pat crocheap, the old corner guy man. Not only did 378 00:22:24,889 --> 00:22:28,009 Speaker 2: I lose the money, but all the contacts that I 379 00:22:28,129 --> 00:22:30,529 Speaker 2: made for him to get him in USA. Today, I 380 00:22:30,570 --> 00:22:34,170 Speaker 2: opened all these doors, through all my relationships, and then 381 00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:37,409 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, when I realized that it was 382 00:22:37,490 --> 00:22:39,650 Speaker 2: a fraud, that it was phony. I mean I had 383 00:22:39,649 --> 00:22:41,170 Speaker 2: to go and apologize to everyone. 384 00:22:42,129 --> 00:22:44,970 Speaker 1: But Pat says that these days he doesn't have time 385 00:22:45,050 --> 00:22:47,209 Speaker 1: for rumination or regret. 386 00:22:47,409 --> 00:22:51,570 Speaker 2: And even though I am here at peace. My body 387 00:22:52,449 --> 00:22:56,850 Speaker 2: has bell marrow cancer. I'm on chemo every twelve hours 388 00:22:56,850 --> 00:23:01,409 Speaker 2: of chemo mets incurable. However, I don't regret that. I 389 00:23:01,449 --> 00:23:07,730 Speaker 2: don't nothing. Oh wow, Jonathan, it's only my body, It's 390 00:23:07,810 --> 00:23:08,489 Speaker 2: not me. 391 00:23:15,889 --> 00:23:19,090 Speaker 1: Before we get off, I ask Pat Michael's burning question, 392 00:23:19,730 --> 00:23:23,689 Speaker 1: why did Quincy lie? But Pat says he doesn't ask 393 00:23:23,889 --> 00:23:28,290 Speaker 1: the why questions only Quincy. Pat says, if he goes deep, 394 00:23:28,570 --> 00:23:32,609 Speaker 1: can answer that. Patt and Quincy haven't spoken for decades. 395 00:23:33,010 --> 00:23:36,609 Speaker 1: Their last interactions were angry ones. Right after Quincy's lie 396 00:23:36,689 --> 00:23:40,050 Speaker 1: came out all the same, Pat offers to reach out 397 00:23:40,090 --> 00:23:43,369 Speaker 1: to Quincy. He contacts a friend who he thinks might 398 00:23:43,369 --> 00:23:47,049 Speaker 1: have Quincy's phone number. I don't have high hopes, but 399 00:23:47,090 --> 00:23:50,810 Speaker 1: Patt and Quincy do end up speaking, and afterwards, for 400 00:23:50,889 --> 00:23:54,889 Speaker 1: reasons I can't discern, Quincy agrees to speak with Michael. 401 00:24:11,689 --> 00:24:14,929 Speaker 1: A video call between Michael and Quincy is arranged, and 402 00:24:14,970 --> 00:24:17,810 Speaker 1: while we wait for Quincy, I asked Michael the opening 403 00:24:17,889 --> 00:24:23,570 Speaker 1: question I learned in jayschool. Are you in a bathroom now? 404 00:24:23,609 --> 00:24:26,810 Speaker 5: This is our tiny little kitchen in our apartment. 405 00:24:27,369 --> 00:24:29,570 Speaker 1: It's late at night, and Michael gives me a tour 406 00:24:29,770 --> 00:24:31,450 Speaker 1: of his darkened New York apartment. 407 00:24:31,889 --> 00:24:33,929 Speaker 5: And there's our Carson's little lunchbox. 408 00:24:34,290 --> 00:24:35,929 Speaker 1: Very sweet. Where is he right now? 409 00:24:36,570 --> 00:24:38,490 Speaker 5: Carson is asleep. 410 00:24:38,929 --> 00:24:44,889 Speaker 1: What a lazy bones? And then Hello. Quincy enters the chat. 411 00:24:45,730 --> 00:24:48,050 Speaker 1: It's been almost twenty years since he and Michael were 412 00:24:48,050 --> 00:24:51,050 Speaker 1: together on set. Quincy was twenty five at the time. 413 00:24:51,449 --> 00:24:52,689 Speaker 1: He's in his forties now. 414 00:24:52,889 --> 00:24:55,090 Speaker 6: It's nice to see Michael's face. I haven't seen his 415 00:24:55,169 --> 00:24:56,130 Speaker 6: face in a long time. 416 00:24:56,129 --> 00:24:57,129 Speaker 5: And it was good to see you. 417 00:24:58,010 --> 00:25:01,169 Speaker 1: Michael and Quincy begin by reminiscing about their time together 418 00:25:01,530 --> 00:25:02,810 Speaker 1: about making the movie. 419 00:25:02,850 --> 00:25:04,729 Speaker 6: There are two scenes that really stand up for me. 420 00:25:04,850 --> 00:25:06,450 Speaker 6: One is when all the kids are in the. 421 00:25:06,449 --> 00:25:10,490 Speaker 1: Diner and the exchange memory from what feels like unfraught 422 00:25:10,609 --> 00:25:13,369 Speaker 1: territory stuff like the casting and the fun of being 423 00:25:13,409 --> 00:25:14,129 Speaker 1: on set. 424 00:25:14,369 --> 00:25:18,169 Speaker 5: My favorite scene was doing doing the U turn. You 425 00:25:18,290 --> 00:25:23,929 Speaker 5: had me drive stick shift and I lied when I auditioned. 426 00:25:23,970 --> 00:25:25,369 Speaker 5: You're like, can you drive stick And I was like, 427 00:25:25,409 --> 00:25:27,689 Speaker 5: I can drive stick. I couldn't drive stick I was 428 00:25:28,770 --> 00:25:32,049 Speaker 5: I never heard that, I know, and I was like 429 00:25:32,449 --> 00:25:34,810 Speaker 5: stalling out, like grinding the gears. 430 00:25:35,689 --> 00:25:38,409 Speaker 1: It feels like Michael is trying to make Quincy comfortable, 431 00:25:38,770 --> 00:25:41,369 Speaker 1: show that Quincy wasn't the only one capable of lie 432 00:25:41,810 --> 00:25:43,090 Speaker 1: was a fraud. 433 00:25:44,530 --> 00:25:46,850 Speaker 6: Into the car from like pulling his hair out to 434 00:25:47,290 --> 00:25:48,689 Speaker 6: I thought the kids could drive. 435 00:25:49,570 --> 00:25:52,369 Speaker 1: But it doesn't take long before the conversation turns to 436 00:25:52,449 --> 00:25:55,409 Speaker 1: the elephant in the room, and it's Quincy who brings 437 00:25:55,449 --> 00:25:55,770 Speaker 1: it up. 438 00:25:56,330 --> 00:25:58,570 Speaker 6: I remember wanting to reach out to you in years 439 00:25:58,570 --> 00:26:03,769 Speaker 6: the past. Yeah, I felt a lot of guilt because, 440 00:26:03,810 --> 00:26:07,090 Speaker 6: like this film, everybody had put so much sweat and 441 00:26:07,209 --> 00:26:11,409 Speaker 6: tears into it, and uh, it was just nothing like evaporated. 442 00:26:12,129 --> 00:26:15,410 Speaker 6: And I thought, my god, I failed every single person. 443 00:26:15,689 --> 00:26:18,050 Speaker 6: And then I became like national news, and then the 444 00:26:18,129 --> 00:26:20,369 Speaker 6: blogs were writing about. 445 00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:26,730 Speaker 1: Me because The Messenger got a colossal amount of press. 446 00:26:27,010 --> 00:26:30,169 Speaker 1: When the truth came out, Quincy received a proportional amount 447 00:26:30,209 --> 00:26:33,289 Speaker 1: of backlash, similar to how the tidal wave of The 448 00:26:33,330 --> 00:26:37,209 Speaker 1: Messenger's success hit Michael, the bad news about The Messenger's 449 00:26:37,250 --> 00:26:40,689 Speaker 1: failure hit Quincy. He was at the airport reading that 450 00:26:40,770 --> 00:26:43,410 Speaker 1: day's newspaper over someone's shoulder and. 451 00:26:43,369 --> 00:26:45,529 Speaker 6: They were reading the article about me and how I 452 00:26:45,570 --> 00:26:52,409 Speaker 6: had lied, and that hit me like I'd say a 453 00:26:52,409 --> 00:26:53,889 Speaker 6: ton of bricks, But a ton of bricks would have 454 00:26:53,929 --> 00:26:55,369 Speaker 6: felt like a pillow compared. 455 00:26:55,050 --> 00:26:57,570 Speaker 1: To what that was how are you coping? 456 00:26:59,129 --> 00:27:01,570 Speaker 6: I was in denial. I kept going back to this 457 00:27:01,770 --> 00:27:06,010 Speaker 6: like excuse of well, the Titanic, right, the Titanic, it's 458 00:27:06,010 --> 00:27:08,050 Speaker 6: a fake movie. It's based on a true story. There 459 00:27:08,090 --> 00:27:10,449 Speaker 6: was no Jack and Rowe, and yet what I had 460 00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:14,010 Speaker 6: done was totally different. I mean I was literally trying 461 00:27:14,050 --> 00:27:17,369 Speaker 6: to pretend that this other actor i'd hired was Thomas Jones. 462 00:27:18,010 --> 00:27:21,929 Speaker 6: And it took me a year or two to sort 463 00:27:21,929 --> 00:27:24,489 Speaker 6: of come to terms and just be like, man, I 464 00:27:24,570 --> 00:27:25,770 Speaker 6: really fucked up. 465 00:27:26,570 --> 00:27:30,250 Speaker 1: Which brings us to the question of why why swap 466 00:27:30,290 --> 00:27:33,930 Speaker 1: a random old man for Thomas E. Jones? To explain 467 00:27:34,290 --> 00:27:36,449 Speaker 1: Quincy starts with how he came to the story of 468 00:27:36,490 --> 00:27:38,169 Speaker 1: the Messenger in the first place. 469 00:27:38,609 --> 00:27:40,850 Speaker 6: I'd been working that summer at the Truman Little White 470 00:27:40,850 --> 00:27:44,330 Speaker 6: House in q Wes, and sort of in my onboarding 471 00:27:44,449 --> 00:27:47,409 Speaker 6: at that museum, they told us to read David McCullough's 472 00:27:47,409 --> 00:27:51,289 Speaker 6: Truman biography, and it was in that book that I 473 00:27:51,330 --> 00:27:55,730 Speaker 6: saw this one sentence about Thomas E. Jones and The Messenger, And. 474 00:27:55,689 --> 00:27:59,649 Speaker 1: It was literally one sentence, one sentence in parentheses, in 475 00:27:59,689 --> 00:28:01,609 Speaker 1: the middle of a thousand page book. 476 00:28:01,770 --> 00:28:04,129 Speaker 6: And I thought, God, what an amazing story. 477 00:28:04,929 --> 00:28:07,450 Speaker 1: But Quincy thought, you know what would make it an 478 00:28:07,490 --> 00:28:11,290 Speaker 1: even more amazing story if he could find Thomas E. Jones, 479 00:28:11,570 --> 00:28:15,129 Speaker 1: interview him and include that interview in the movie. And 480 00:28:15,169 --> 00:28:18,130 Speaker 1: in Quincy's telling, he did look for Thomas Jones. 481 00:28:18,609 --> 00:28:23,929 Speaker 6: I had hired literal investigators to go find this person, 482 00:28:24,369 --> 00:28:27,609 Speaker 6: two different guys, and they both said, like, you know, 483 00:28:27,689 --> 00:28:29,850 Speaker 6: we can't. We can't find them, but we found these 484 00:28:29,850 --> 00:28:31,889 Speaker 6: two death certificates that kind of match up. 485 00:28:32,490 --> 00:28:36,169 Speaker 1: So the death certificates felt like enough. Quincy concluded that 486 00:28:36,209 --> 00:28:39,690 Speaker 1: the Thomas E. Jones he was looking for probably was dead. 487 00:28:39,610 --> 00:28:42,250 Speaker 6: And I didn't share that with anybody because in my head, 488 00:28:42,330 --> 00:28:43,850 Speaker 6: I just saw the story rolling out. He's like, we 489 00:28:43,850 --> 00:28:45,130 Speaker 6: were going to tell the story and then the end 490 00:28:45,170 --> 00:28:48,690 Speaker 6: you saw the real guy and that I couldn't get 491 00:28:48,730 --> 00:28:50,050 Speaker 6: away from that story. 492 00:28:50,850 --> 00:28:53,370 Speaker 1: And in the absence of the real guy, the next 493 00:28:53,410 --> 00:28:55,130 Speaker 1: best thing was a fake guy. 494 00:28:55,730 --> 00:28:58,930 Speaker 6: Oh well, that decease Thomas Jones will never know and 495 00:28:58,970 --> 00:29:00,970 Speaker 6: anybody that sees the movie, it's gonna be so great 496 00:29:00,970 --> 00:29:03,009 Speaker 6: and they're gonna be crying and laughing at the end 497 00:29:03,010 --> 00:29:04,570 Speaker 6: of it that they won't care. 498 00:29:05,090 --> 00:29:09,010 Speaker 1: For this role. There was no casting, no auditions. In fact, 499 00:29:09,490 --> 00:29:11,850 Speaker 1: the part of Thomas E. Jones wasn't played by an 500 00:29:11,850 --> 00:29:12,490 Speaker 1: actor at all. 501 00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:16,690 Speaker 6: He was actually a tour guide at the Truman Little 502 00:29:16,690 --> 00:29:17,249 Speaker 6: White House. 503 00:29:17,850 --> 00:29:20,410 Speaker 1: Quincy had asked a work friend from the museum to 504 00:29:20,490 --> 00:29:21,490 Speaker 1: do the job. 505 00:29:23,570 --> 00:29:26,930 Speaker 6: And then the real Thomas Jones found me. And I 506 00:29:27,090 --> 00:29:31,050 Speaker 6: certainly remember that feeling. It was like a disgust I 507 00:29:31,090 --> 00:29:32,050 Speaker 6: felt for myself. 508 00:29:35,890 --> 00:29:39,130 Speaker 1: In the aftermath, Quincy left the film world for many years. 509 00:29:39,570 --> 00:29:41,850 Speaker 1: He was fired from his job at the Truman Museum. 510 00:29:42,330 --> 00:29:45,370 Speaker 1: He eventually found work clerking in a bookstore and making 511 00:29:45,370 --> 00:29:48,890 Speaker 1: wedding videos. Well, this was the first time a live 512 00:29:49,010 --> 00:29:52,330 Speaker 1: Quincy's had been so brutally exposed. He admits that the 513 00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:55,450 Speaker 1: lying itself was something he'd been leaning on since his 514 00:29:55,530 --> 00:29:56,330 Speaker 1: teen years. 515 00:29:56,610 --> 00:29:58,529 Speaker 6: You know, I had come from a fairly poor family 516 00:29:58,570 --> 00:30:02,570 Speaker 6: in Key West, and I had attended a very exclusive 517 00:30:02,610 --> 00:30:06,290 Speaker 6: prep school up in western Massachusetts called Deerfield Academy, where 518 00:30:06,290 --> 00:30:09,130 Speaker 6: I had no business being there, And so I I 519 00:30:09,130 --> 00:30:14,010 Speaker 6: felt this like sense of just like always needing to exaggerate. 520 00:30:14,450 --> 00:30:16,410 Speaker 6: People would be like, oh, I'm going to Paris for 521 00:30:16,450 --> 00:30:18,930 Speaker 6: want or break, and I'd be like, oh, gosh, you know, Paris, 522 00:30:18,930 --> 00:30:21,930 Speaker 6: It's great. I didn't even know what country it was. 523 00:30:21,970 --> 00:30:27,930 Speaker 6: In it was like a daily thing. Freshman year, someone 524 00:30:27,930 --> 00:30:31,050 Speaker 6: had a picture Jimmy Hendrix a poster and I remember 525 00:30:31,090 --> 00:30:33,850 Speaker 6: looking at his name and thinking it looked kind of French, 526 00:30:33,850 --> 00:30:38,330 Speaker 6: and I was like, oh, I love Gym Hendrye. And 527 00:30:38,410 --> 00:30:40,930 Speaker 6: I remember him looking at me and being like, what. 528 00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:47,810 Speaker 1: For Quincy. Lies became a beautiful wall between himself and 529 00:30:47,850 --> 00:30:52,769 Speaker 1: everyone else. Lies protected him but also isolated him. It 530 00:30:52,810 --> 00:30:55,570 Speaker 1: took the collapse of The Messenger to finally get him 531 00:30:55,570 --> 00:30:56,770 Speaker 1: to stop, and. 532 00:30:56,770 --> 00:31:01,289 Speaker 6: It was actually very relieving because it took a lot 533 00:31:01,330 --> 00:31:03,130 Speaker 6: of weight off my shoulders that I didn't have to 534 00:31:03,170 --> 00:31:05,650 Speaker 6: make every story ten percent better. I didn't have to. 535 00:31:06,570 --> 00:31:11,210 Speaker 6: As hard as that was, that was the most important, lesson, 536 00:31:11,930 --> 00:31:19,090 Speaker 6: full stop period of my life. 537 00:31:19,610 --> 00:31:23,250 Speaker 5: After we did The Messenger, I didn't take that as 538 00:31:23,650 --> 00:31:24,850 Speaker 5: anything that stopped me. 539 00:31:25,690 --> 00:31:28,690 Speaker 1: When Quincy is done sharing the effects The Messenger had 540 00:31:28,730 --> 00:31:31,530 Speaker 1: on his life, Michael shares the role that played for him. 541 00:31:31,890 --> 00:31:35,690 Speaker 5: Seeing the camera, seeing the crew, it blew my mind. 542 00:31:36,330 --> 00:31:39,010 Speaker 5: I didn't know that this was possible. I didn't know 543 00:31:39,130 --> 00:31:40,890 Speaker 5: that this is what it looked like. 544 00:31:41,209 --> 00:31:44,370 Speaker 1: And I was in It's Quincy and The Messenger that 545 00:31:44,450 --> 00:31:47,890 Speaker 1: inspired Michael's career, but it isn't just that Quincy gave 546 00:31:47,930 --> 00:31:50,890 Speaker 1: him a professional life. He gave him a life. 547 00:31:51,410 --> 00:31:56,010 Speaker 5: I married this beautiful person who she's a movie producer, 548 00:31:56,410 --> 00:32:00,170 Speaker 5: and we have this amazing kid called Carson who's two 549 00:32:00,209 --> 00:32:03,209 Speaker 5: and a half years old. And all of this life 550 00:32:03,209 --> 00:32:06,249 Speaker 5: that I have, this partner, of this career, this kid, 551 00:32:07,410 --> 00:32:11,170 Speaker 5: it comes from this wild, weird, random moment in Cleveland, 552 00:32:11,209 --> 00:32:14,450 Speaker 5: Ohio where you decided to cast me in this short film. 553 00:32:14,490 --> 00:32:18,010 Speaker 5: And it's all this to say, like I never got 554 00:32:18,050 --> 00:32:23,410 Speaker 5: to just thank you. I've always appreciated that door that 555 00:32:23,450 --> 00:32:25,850 Speaker 5: you showed to me and allowed me to walk through 556 00:32:26,930 --> 00:32:31,249 Speaker 5: that moment, that time, that invitation that you gave me 557 00:32:31,290 --> 00:32:36,529 Speaker 5: to be on set changed the entire direction of my life. 558 00:32:40,890 --> 00:32:46,490 Speaker 6: That means a lot to me. I I look back 559 00:32:46,530 --> 00:32:51,090 Speaker 6: on that time and totally with totally different eyes. It 560 00:32:51,170 --> 00:32:54,650 Speaker 6: was one of the most difficult things in my life. 561 00:32:55,370 --> 00:33:01,410 Speaker 6: And I can't tell you like how meaningful it is 562 00:33:01,410 --> 00:33:04,930 Speaker 6: to me to hear that someone had something good come 563 00:33:04,970 --> 00:33:07,490 Speaker 6: out of it, because it certainly didn't feel like that. 564 00:33:09,370 --> 00:33:16,009 Speaker 6: I was convinced that it would ruin everyone's life, because 565 00:33:16,010 --> 00:33:17,690 Speaker 6: that's what I was feeling at that moment. 566 00:33:19,209 --> 00:33:22,850 Speaker 1: Quincy just assumed anyone involved with the messenger would still 567 00:33:22,890 --> 00:33:26,050 Speaker 1: be furious with him, and so a few weeks back, 568 00:33:26,090 --> 00:33:28,850 Speaker 1: when he saw Pat Croche's name pop up on his phone, 569 00:33:29,209 --> 00:33:31,330 Speaker 1: he says he almost felt too scared to pick up, 570 00:33:32,010 --> 00:33:35,010 Speaker 1: but when they spoke, instead of yelling at him, Pat 571 00:33:35,050 --> 00:33:36,690 Speaker 1: told him it was time to let it go. 572 00:33:37,209 --> 00:33:39,090 Speaker 6: As soon as he said that those words let it go, 573 00:33:39,850 --> 00:33:41,970 Speaker 6: I just sat out in front of my house and 574 00:33:42,490 --> 00:33:48,050 Speaker 6: cried for a good twenty minutes. I didn't know before 575 00:33:48,090 --> 00:33:51,570 Speaker 6: we talked today, actually genuinely what you were going to 576 00:33:51,610 --> 00:33:53,970 Speaker 6: say today. 577 00:33:54,209 --> 00:33:56,530 Speaker 5: You know you were I met you as this person 578 00:33:56,570 --> 00:33:57,209 Speaker 5: I looked up to. 579 00:33:58,850 --> 00:34:04,690 Speaker 6: You're gonna make me cry. I'm really, really genuinely happy 580 00:34:04,730 --> 00:34:04,969 Speaker 6: for you. 581 00:34:07,050 --> 00:34:08,930 Speaker 5: Thank you for taking time just to talk to me. 582 00:34:09,170 --> 00:34:13,730 Speaker 5: It really thank you for the life I got to 583 00:34:13,770 --> 00:34:14,609 Speaker 5: have because of it. 584 00:34:21,290 --> 00:34:24,770 Speaker 1: Recently I got to share in that life. One day, 585 00:34:24,850 --> 00:34:27,490 Speaker 1: leaving our New York studio, Michael says he's off to 586 00:34:27,530 --> 00:34:30,450 Speaker 1: meet his wife Katie. Her crew is filming just a 587 00:34:30,490 --> 00:34:33,770 Speaker 1: few blocks away, and Michael asks if I'd like to come, 588 00:34:34,090 --> 00:34:39,130 Speaker 1: and I say sure. On the corner of twentieth Street 589 00:34:39,170 --> 00:34:43,010 Speaker 1: and Seventh Avenue, shooting is in full swing. The movie 590 00:34:43,010 --> 00:34:46,450 Speaker 1: stars John Tatruro as an aging pickpocket who ends up 591 00:34:46,490 --> 00:34:49,170 Speaker 1: with a thumb drive containing a crypto wallet on it. 592 00:34:50,010 --> 00:34:53,170 Speaker 1: Michael and I are waved past the protected perimeter and 593 00:34:53,250 --> 00:34:56,290 Speaker 1: Katie gives me a pair of small headphones as I 594 00:34:56,370 --> 00:34:59,610 Speaker 1: watch take after take of John Totruro slamming down a 595 00:34:59,650 --> 00:35:03,530 Speaker 1: payphone and screaming fuck in fake fury. I feel like 596 00:35:03,570 --> 00:35:07,050 Speaker 1: a ten year old on a field trip. All around us, 597 00:35:07,130 --> 00:35:10,250 Speaker 1: the city bustles as normal. We are tucked away in 598 00:35:10,290 --> 00:35:16,090 Speaker 1: our make believe world, watching make believe things. It's all 599 00:35:16,090 --> 00:35:19,370 Speaker 1: a lie, of course, but one that we're all in on. 600 00:35:19,930 --> 00:36:18,170 Speaker 9: And how good. 601 00:35:55,770 --> 00:36:01,530 Speaker 4: Now that the fern ures returning to it's goodwill home, 602 00:36:05,050 --> 00:36:09,650 Speaker 4: Now that the last month's raft is scheming. 603 00:36:09,370 --> 00:36:10,970 Speaker 2: The damage to possum. 604 00:36:11,330 --> 00:36:26,890 Speaker 4: Take this moment to desolee too felt around for five team. 605 00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:33,410 Speaker 1: From Things That Accident Lee. This episode of Heavyweight was 606 00:36:33,450 --> 00:36:36,930 Speaker 1: produced by Khalila Holt and me Jonathan Goldstein, along with 607 00:36:37,050 --> 00:36:41,730 Speaker 1: Moheeny mcgauker and Phoebe Flanagan. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane. 608 00:36:42,090 --> 00:36:45,970 Speaker 1: Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Lucy Sullivan, 609 00:36:46,210 --> 00:36:50,090 Speaker 1: Karen Chakerjee and Nazanine RAFs and Johnny Our production council 610 00:36:50,250 --> 00:36:54,009 Speaker 1: is Jake Flanagan. Emmamonger mixed the episode with original music 611 00:36:54,050 --> 00:36:57,810 Speaker 1: by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson and Bobby Lord. Additional 612 00:36:57,850 --> 00:37:02,690 Speaker 1: scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, Bobble Principal and Shanghai Restoration Project. 613 00:37:03,330 --> 00:37:06,570 Speaker 1: Our theme song is by the Weakerlands, courtesy of Epitaph Records. 614 00:37:06,770 --> 00:37:10,090 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Heavyweight Podcast, or email us 615 00:37:10,130 --> 00:37:13,610 Speaker 1: at Heavyweight at Pushkin dot Fm. We'll be back next 616 00:37:13,690 --> 00:37:15,570 Speaker 1: week with a new episode.