WEBVTT - Hugh Jackman Is “The Front Runner” 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:06.680 Hi Katie, Hi Brian. Did you have a nice Thanksgiving? 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:09.440 I had a lovely Thanksgiving. You know why why I 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:11.800 didn't cook a damp thing. We went to a restaurant 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:15.360 and ate everything from soup to nuts. How lazy am I? 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:17.880 How was your Thanksgiving? Brian? It was very good. You know, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:19.880 my family cook so the turkey was dry, but the 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.480 pie was good. Old I've never had a voice turkey. 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:25.360 Actually no, I mean I think we should have like 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.240 a Thanksgiving ham or something. I'd like to I'd like 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:34.080 to Thanksgiving rip ros myself like a prime rib. Anyway, 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:36.559 but it is an opportunity to kind of have a 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:40.159 little time off and to give thanks in all sincerity 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:45.800 for our blessings and that our bously, our family, our 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:51.640 friends are good fortune and you Brian, and this podcast 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:56.080 and today I'm exceptionally thankful that I get to talk 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.520 to Hugh Jackman, Matt Bye and Jake Carson. Did they 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.960 sound like afterthoughts? Well? Maybe because a jack. Hugh Jackman, 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.679 of course, has a new movie out called The front Runner, 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:11.280 all about Gary Hart's ill fated campaign and what happened 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:15.120 to him in three weeks back in seven when it 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:18.920 looked like he was going to win his party's nomination 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:21.520 for president of the United States. But it was when 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.680 everything changed, not only for Gary Hart, but for the 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:27.240 media and for our country. And we should provide a 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:29.880 little bit of background. Gary Hart was a Democratic senator 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:34.080 from Colorado. He had run unsuccessfully for president once before. 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.000 Everybody sort of assumed he was going to be the 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:41.120 leader of the pack. But then the media started digging 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.240 around his personal life and that was kind of the 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:46.080 beginning of the end for his effort. I'm going to 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.080 show you, Senator, this is relevant. It's just that we 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:50.160 saw you leave and come back with this woman, and 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.560 we wouldn't see her. No one is staying in my home. 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:57.960 There's no need for that, right, I am serious, sir. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:01.720 How long have you known this? One kind of question? 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.360 What kind of questions are? Is she a friend? Well, 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:05.920 I don't know why I would tell you that, Tom, 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:07.600 I am not going to you produce her to corroborate 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:09.680 what you're saying. You have to produce anything. This has 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:11.880 gone on along. We know you've made calls to this 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.960 woman from Kansas and New Hampson every day. I don't 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:18.400 see how I remember at your announcement speech. Okay, you said, 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:22.920 you said, we weld ourselves the highest possible standards of 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:28.799 integrity and ethics. Then why are we standing here now? 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.679 Hugh Jackman did not do this on his own. It's 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.320 based on a book written by Matt, by one of 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.480 our favorites. We worked together when we were both at 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:41.560 Yahoo News. Matt is still there is the National Political Columnists. 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.399 So this movie is based on his book called All 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.160 the Truth Is Out, The Weak Politics Went Tabloid. We're 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.200 also joined by another one of my favorites, Jay Carson. 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:55.880 Jay Carson helped adapt Matt's book into the screenplay along 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.560 with director Jason Rightman. James had a pretty interesting career himself. 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:03.160 He's only a senior advisor at Bloomberg Philanthropies. He's worked 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.200 on a lot of big political campaigns. You and I, 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.720 I think first got to know him ten years ago 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:11.000 when he was the traveling press secretary for Hillary Clinton. 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:15.320 That's right. Fun fact. Ryan Gosling played the character based 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:17.760 on j in the two thousand thirteen movie The Odds 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:21.080 of March As I'm looking at you, Brian, Ryan Gosling 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:23.400 could play you in the movie All About Our Podcast. 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:25.519 You know, find a nickel for every time somebody said 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.000 that's me, Katie, I'm you know, I'm confused for Hugh 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:34.960 or for Ryan particularly Shirt. Anyway, we decided we were 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:38.680 going to have a long conversation with them about politics, 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:42.640 the media, about Gary Hart, and how you really take 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.440 a story that happened in nine seven and make it 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:50.720 relevant today. So we started out by asking Matt why 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:53.480 he wanted to write a book about this chapter in 0:03:53.520 --> 0:04:06.400 American politics in the first place. There are just stories. 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:08.960 I know you've had this experience, kidding, They're just stories. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.520 They grab you, they don't really let you go. I'm 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:13.120 not a person who has a million ideas I want 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:14.920 to live with for a long time. In fact, this 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.880 might be the only one. But you know, I had 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.520 met Gary Hart at the end of two thousand two 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:22.200 when I was in New York Times magazine. I'd written 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:26.560 about him. I'd been found myself really compelled both by 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:28.520 him and his story and also about the things I've 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:30.200 missed about his story. I mean, the more I looked 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:31.720 into it, the more I found that some things were 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:34.839 just so misremembered about it, even things I'd repeated. Honestly, 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:38.440 they just weren't right. And I think to myself as 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.440 a journalist. If we've if we've just put something in 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.760 a box and we've we've collectively misremembered it. Why you know, what, 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:46.760 what why why do you do that? You don't do 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:48.599 that for no reason. You overlook something for a reason. 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:51.359 And I really began to look into it, decided I 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:55.160 wanted to do the book, which really people did think 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.000 was a crazy idea except for Jay, my wife, you 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.400 know people. But you know by um, you know, the 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.839 book came out in and you know, I should imagine 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:06.640 because we started talking about um, all of us behind 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:08.760 the movie, but you know, the driving force behind the 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.720 movies Jason Reitman, our director and co writer, who uh 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:14.359 you know, who heard me talking about the book on 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.400 a podcast and on a radio that piece and just 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.159 was immediately got it, you know, just was hooked. Read 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:21.880 the book immediately, you know, if you know, Jason just 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.160 like write the book in about twenty seconds. Uh, you know, 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:26.160 I had the movie in his head by the time 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.160 we all sat down, and uh and we we all 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.640 just had this kind of magical collaboration. Really and what 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:33.640 was it, Hugh that made you think, Gosh, I want 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.520 to play Gary Hart? Well, Jason was a big part 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.719 of it, and I didn't know a lot about the story, 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.200 and I was amazed when I read it all how 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:47.440 this incredible for me, incredible candidate and with an unbelievably 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:50.960 strong ideas somehow quit politics forever, like this was the 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:52.760 guy who was definitely going to be the next president. 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.520 Three weeks later he's out forever. And this sort of 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:00.159 mix about principles and ethics and public versus p of it. 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.520 There was so much about it that fascinated me, and 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:06.720 I was in probably twenty pages into the script. I 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.640 thought the writing was so smart. I loved being part 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.560 of a movie that wasn't heroes and villains. It was 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:14.720 just a whole bunch of characters. I love the way 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:19.359 that women were portrayed in the movie, and it really 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:24.680 made me think, which ultimately is great thing if you're 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:25.880 going to see a movie, and if you're going to 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:28.240 be in a movie and you're gonna dedicate six nine 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:30.159 months to be alive. He wanted to be something that's 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.159 really going to grab you. Jay. There were very few 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.880 negatives on Heart, but one was the sort of undefined 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.200 sense that he was a little bit flaky. He had 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.240 changed his last name he had changed his signature, he 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:44.919 had even changed his birthdate at one point. But the 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.600 other was Heart's reputation as a womanizer. And of course 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:52.520 before reporters didn't look at the private lives of candidate's 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.880 pretty much. Ever, why do you think this changed? Why 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.480 do you think the Heart campaign was the moment that 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:02.039 this shifted. I mean, there's a confluence of events that 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:06.160 happened around eight um that lead to this moment shifting, 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:08.320 and it shifts in it and it never returns. But 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:10.800 there is a rule pre ad eight, which is that 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:14.560 someone's personal life is never relevant. Um. The rule post 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:17.520 is that it's always relevant. What we're arguing for in 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.440 this movie is some judgment on the part on on 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.400 all of our parts, the voters, the journalists, the candidates. 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.440 Certainly there were times pre a eight where it was 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:27.720 relevant we should have known what was going on behind 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:29.960 closed doors. Certainly there have been times post eight eight 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.480 where we don't need to know. And that's that's sort 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.160 of what we're trying to start that conversation, UM, because 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.880 I think that absolute rules, whether they are ideology or 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.480 something like always and never are they're just lazy on 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:43.800 all of our parts. So what Was it about the 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:48.320 atmosphere though then and the environment Matt that this confluence 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:53.480 that Jave referred to, that was it increased competition? Was it, 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:57.480 you know, the US weeklies of the world coming into play. 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.600 I mean, you know, I remember because I had worked 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.120 at w TVJ in Miami and I was big admirer 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:07.200 of Tom Fieedler's But yeah, he's from the Miami Herald 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.080 that was really involved in in breaking this story. Right, 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:14.080 What was happening that caused this? There are moments in 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:17.800 time where things come together in a way that changes 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:20.440 and it's not just politics, changes the culture. And I think, 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:22.920 you know, in retrospect, what's easier to see now than 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:24.720 at that moment in the mid nineties, you had a 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.080 bunch of things going on. You're about a decade after Watergate, 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:32.040 which changes journalism in a couple of profound ways. It changes, yes, 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.120 in a sort of based career ambition way. Right, if 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:35.679 you can take down a politician, now you can get 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.600 rich and famous. But also quite quite rightly, I think 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:41.840 puts the focus on moral character of our leaders more 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.120 than it had been. And because it was embarrassing for 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.560 the media to have missed that about Richard Nixon. You 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:48.840 had the rise of feminism on the left, which changed 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.040 attitudes about adult three, you had the rise of the 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.280 moral majority on the right, which also put personal behavior 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:58.040 much more in the realm of political discussion. And then 0:08:58.040 --> 0:08:59.439 you have the birth that you know better than I do, 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:01.680 the birth of to like television right, CNN launches in 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:06.000 the early nineteen eighties, flyaway satellite dishes. Right. Suddenly you 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.760 have this moment where you can broadcast live anything from anywhere, 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:11.319 and you've got to keep people in their seats, and 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.040 the definition of news changes when it's an hour to 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.280 hour sort of keep the ratings up, uh issue, And 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:19.440 so all of these things come together, I think in 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.400 that moment, and as a result, what happens is that 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.800 we begin from that moment to treat our candidate's much 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:29.640 more like we treat our celebrities. And I would submit 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:33.680 that when you treat politicians like celebrities and create a 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:37.800 process that demands celebrity, you will get celebrities as politicians 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.040 and wanting to enter the process. And I think that's 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.480 been the direct line that you can follow from that 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:45.640 moment to the one in which we find ourselves, frankly 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.720 more relevant than we thought writing the script. We we 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.880 had the script done before thee election, but I think 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:56.600 I think events have just made it so unsettlingly timely 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.319 in some ways. You know, I think you accomplished something 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.040 that I thought was impossible. You made Hugh Jackman actually 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:10.040 unappealing to one. Thing that struck me, you know, because 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.000 I remember Gary hard. I think I've interviewed him on 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.120 a number of occasions, and of course I remember the 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.720 story well. Even though I was in local news when 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:22.200 this this story happened. Um, you know, I kept thinking, God, 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:27.839 he's so humorless, and he's so lacking in Christmas. He's 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:31.840 so obnoxiously earnest. That's what I thought when I watched 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:34.800 this movie. Did you set out to make him that way? 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:42.000 This is the least amount of acting I've ever done. 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.959 I know he is, I know you. He's the antithesis 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:47.760 of everything you are. I mean, did you just have 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:53.480 to like try to sublimate any personality? No, I have 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:57.080 a different perspective from meeting him and spending time with him. 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.439 I find him very mercurial in a way. Like I 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:02.480 actually jokingly said to him, have you ever thought about 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.520 being an actor? Because when I'm around a lot of actors, 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:08.280 I always feel like any adjective could work with that actor, 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.240 Like actors have to chop and change so much that 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:13.960 they can to time to be grumpy or earnest or funny. 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.400 And I found him maybe because of everything I'd heard 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:22.040 or read. I was surprisingly warm, funny, very inviting, very 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:26.040 very hospitable. He was quite serious and brief in what 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.480 he did, and people were even his own campaign team 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:32.079 at important moments, were on eggshells at times around him 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.520 because he was very serious and he wasn't mucking around. 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:40.640 But I I my job was to bring you close enough, 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.440 but never let you in. That's what I felt, and 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.760 Jason I talked about that a lot, because he is 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.320 a very private person, and a lot of people I 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:50.720 spoke to even to this day, once it's been years 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.520 around it was like I couldn't quite grab onto who 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:57.080 he is. So I'm a little even hearing you now, 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.800 I'm like, maybe I didn't quite work. I was hoping 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.280 for a bit like I think I've got it, but 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:06.319 I'm not sure like that, I mean, I mean, I 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:11.360 felt he was almost contemptuous of the People magazine culture. 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:15.360 We were moving towards definitely think it's a discomfort more 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:16.839 than anything I think, And I think that's what he 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.480 brings across so brilliantly. I do think he is absolutely 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.319 brilliant this film. I think we all do, and and 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.720 and part of it is is telegraphing something that's very 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.440 hard to telegraph with your face, with your emotions, with 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:33.840 your emotions. Is this this discomfort with the arena is 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:38.200 not being able to feel yourself, with feeling always under 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.400 a microscope and and feeling the ground shifting underneath you, 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.120 and not being able to adapt to it. It's a 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.560 hard thing to get across with somebody who doesn't deliver 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:49.120 long soliloquies, which is and I think you did a 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.559 great job. Don't get me wrong. I just didn't find 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:55.520 Gary Hart very appealing for me because I think he 0:12:55.640 --> 0:13:00.440 was so intent upon maintaining this zone of privacy. As 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.440 somebody who watched the movie, I you know, I just 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:05.760 wanted to mess up his hair and slap him around 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.880 and get him drunk. Right by the way he got 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:13.080 mad drunk. He makes a main mountainy when I said 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.120 in his house, oh yeah, no, no he can, he 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:19.240 can throw him back, but he yeah, No, it's it's 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:21.800 it's interesting because I think it was. I DAS was 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.720 so important to him, and he spent hours on them. 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.560 And so when he was doing a speech on economics 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.240 or in anything, it had been years of working things 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:35.640 out before he ran. He had been to every country, 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.000 met with not just the leader but the opposition leader. 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.280 So he knew, like his detail on how he could 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:45.080 possibly lead the country very well overnight year period was incredible. 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:49.320 Did he have enough EQ for this current environment and 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:53.080 for mass media? And you know when they say people 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.560 vote for the guy or gal they want to have 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.720 a beer with, Like I mean, he just didn't seem 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:02.719 to have any of those. Hey, let's let's hang out qualities. 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:05.160 I know what you mean. And I think I find 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.360 myself in the same place sometimes scolding myself for needing 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.080 the person to have the right EQ. And and I 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.480 have through the process of writing and doing this movie, 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.680 I wanted to flip that around in my head and 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.360 wonder why we put so much stress on that. Right, 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:22.880 We're watching someone who's clearly brilliant, who's clearly thought the 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:24.680 job through, but we don't like them enough. And this 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:26.440 is weird thing where like we would never cheat our 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.720 airline pilot that way. I mean, I flew through a 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:30.480 lot of turbulence to get here last night, and I 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.760 wasn't thinking as I was laying there trying to to 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.120 sleep through the through the bouncing around, like do I 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.800 like my pilot? Is he nice enough? I'm like, I 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:39.840 want him to be able to fly the goddamn plane 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:43.120 and landed and we flipped it around with President, which 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.440 is much more serious than flying just two hundred of 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:49.720 us across the country. I personally want to pilot chat 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.400 and they do both right. They're funny and they can fly. 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.560 But like, I'll take flying over funny and likable every day. 0:14:57.560 --> 0:14:59.200 But we have I do it too, Like I would 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:01.160 pick candidates I would work for based on do I 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:02.760 like them? Do I want to be around them all 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.920 the time? That's not the right prioritization. Don't they have 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.800 to be great communicators though, Isn't that? Part of Donald 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:12.440 Trump's problem is that he just doesn't know how to 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.200 heal the nation and times of duress. He doesn't know 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.160 how to inspire anyone. All he knows is how to 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.000 you know, hate on people really and and to me, 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:27.760 communicating and setting a tone is as important as having 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.880 the cerebral qualities of coming up with the best policies. 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.400 But let me just add another little thing into that mix, 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.560 in that there's a great documentary about his eighty four 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.120 run and he's on camera saying, I'm I'm often called 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.720 cool and aloof that when we win that first primary, 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.960 everyone will call me enigmatic and he and and that's 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.560 exactly what happened. So he wins in a landslide. If 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:51.840 anyone's like, who's this guy out of nowhere? And Heart 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:56.000 and all of a sudden, people seem in this different prison. 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.880 So if we cut to seven, let's say he wins 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:00.960 the first four or five pa these twenty points, they 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.720 hit a bush. People seeing him in a whole different light. 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.640 He probably carries himself in a different light. He doesn't 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:08.640 have to work so like it would might have fit 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.320 perfectly with his character and we would have just gone, ah, 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.160 a lot of this guy. He's got great He doesn't 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:15.800 have to talk on and on like I think it's 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.600 it's just interesting that he did have an understanding of 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.800 human nature. And maybe it was events as much as anything. Well, 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.720 I'm front runners are covered differently. Heart was supposed by 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.040 everyone to be the next president United States, and so 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:30.680 he generated a lot of extra scrutiny. But I'm going 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.120 to ask you about how much the rules actually changed. 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:38.600 Because after Heart, Bill Clinton and Frankly, our current president 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:42.840 have gotten away with extramarital affairs. Why do you think 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.000 they were able to get through these controversies? But Heart 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.880 was I mean, Brian, it's it's exactly what I was saying. 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:51.720 You know, It's just what I was saying a moment ago. 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:55.080 Because you create a process that rewards a certain amount 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.480 of shamelessness and evasion and the willingness to drag your 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.760 family uh in one of the cameras and uh and 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:05.080 Frankly to be dishonest and uh, you know. I mean 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.800 you can look at it and say, well, Bill Clinton survived. 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:09.199 Now I look at Donald Trump and he's got all 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.160 this checker stuff and he just says whatever he wants 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.080 and sales through. Okay, But but I would look at it, 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.800 I would suggest that it's very different, which is, you 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:20.720 created a process that rewards an entirely different set of qualities. 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:22.520 What we think of his leadership now is not what 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.719 we thought of his leadership prior to. It's not about ideas. 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:27.760 It's not about intellect, it's not about even a certain 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.480 amount of reserve, which people generally expected in their leaders. 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.920 It's now about how well how well can you evade 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.439 the traps, how well can you emode on que how 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.000 much of us? How much are you willing to share? What? 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.520 How much can you humanize yourself? Uh? And and and 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.119 how you know, can you lie effectively to get around 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.399 the things about yourself that would be that would be 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.200 morally damaging. I think when you create, when you change 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:53.520 the definition of what makes a great candidate, you you 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.000 you you get the candidates who meet those qualifications and 0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:01.640 a pretty good candidate instant. It ends up being incidental. 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:03.639 You know, you may have someone who knows how to 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.400 do the job, but that's their performing ability that we're 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:08.119 looking at first. It's just what I was saying. It's 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:10.520 it's not can they fly the plane, it's it's their 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.879 performance ability. And oh, incidentally, they may have gone to 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.080 flight school. But we're not really asking those questions first. 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.679 That we have a process that rewards shamelessness. Is it 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.919 because there's no marketplace of ideas? I mean, is it 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:25.919 because of our modern media culture that emphasizes sort of 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:30.800 the quick uh, you know, dramatic theatrical aspect of a 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.639 candidate or a president. I mean, why did it all change? 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.320 I mean, are we just stupid? I mean, what is it? Well? 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.640 I think that's that's a chicken and egg question, right, 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.800 is it is it? Does the process dumbed down the 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:48.199 dialogue and and bleed bleeded of ideas or or does 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.280 a lack of ideas create a more vapid process. And 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:52.159 that's part of the conversation. I think people can debate, 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.080 you know, when they when they think about these issues. 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:55.760 To your point B about Presdental Bomba, which is a 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.159 very interesting case and I think very actually quite similar 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.399 to Center Heart in some ways in terms personality. I 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:05.080 would actually argue that while President Obama is different than 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.600 the other people we talked about, his mere existence as 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.199 a candidate and president would not have been possible in 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:13.119 a process that we're not dominated by a kind of 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.720 entertainment narrative. He was the star of a drama. You know, 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.400 we call him no Drama Obama. The truth is he 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.560 had very little experience, very little qualification, had thought through 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.760 very little about governing the country. But he was a story. 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:27.399 There was a great story, arc and a great character 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.359 to what he sold the country. And I don't I 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.320 don't know, I know him, and I don't argue he 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.200 wasn't a good president. I'm simply saying he is part 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.719 and parcel of of an euro where entertainment has become 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:41.320 intertwined and inseparable from politics. And I think this is 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:43.280 what we're looking at. Here is a genesis moment. It's 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:44.879 a moment, you know. What we're trying to show people 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:47.760 is a moment where it shifted so they can leave 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.920 and reflect and argue about how it got here, whether 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:53.119 it should have been different, and where the responsibility laws. 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.199 On the other hand, I was frustrated because ja I 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:57.320 kept thinking, why couldn't Gary Heart just keep it in 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:01.960 his pants? What the hell was wrong with him? I mean, look, 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.840 I mean, I mean, is it too much to expect? 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:09.760 Maybe I'm just not idealistic and naive, but I kind 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:15.920 of want my president to be faithful? Is that weird? Matt? 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.639 You want to notice that Teddy White said that of 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.080 all the candidates he covered in half a century for president, 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:26.440 only three Harry Truman, George Romney and Jimmy Carter had 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:30.080 not enjoyed the pleasure of quote casual partners, which is 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:31.920 kind of unbelievable. We could have I guess we could 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:34.760 have twenty Carter administrations if that's what you want. But uh, 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:39.040 you know, what should should I not care? You know? 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.760 You should care? I mean I think that, you know, 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:43.520 part of what we're arguing this movie is that like, 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.439 it's okay for you to care, that you and a 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.520