1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show. There 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: was a story in my favorite newspaper, the New York Post, 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: yesterday on how Generation Z has no friends. It was 4 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: based on a study out of Australia done by Bumble, 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: the dating site. Not entirely sure why Bumble is looking 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: into this, but maybe the future really is, as my 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: guest Mary Katherine Ham said a few days ago, a 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: Tinder for friends. It's not just Australia, and it's clearly 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: not just gen Z. 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: There have been so many studies done on how. 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: People just can't seem to connect, and a lot of 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: it is correctly blamed on social media. Social media turns 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: friendship and dating, but that's a whole other episode into 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: something similar to a video game. You're swiping, you're leaving comments, 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: you're clicking, like your commenting on each other's content, but 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: never really having a friendship. But I'd say that the 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: problem is wider than just that video game sensation, which 18 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: I do think is a problem. I think that especially 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: again in dating, I think people see swiping as like 20 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: you're doing something when you're really not doing all that much. 21 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: But I think one of the big issues with social 22 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: media is how self conscious it makes us and how 23 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: obsessed we become with how we are perceived, like is 24 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: this my best angle? Do I look cool? Who's going 25 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: to see this? What are they going to think of me? 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: All of that really hinders who you actually are, and friendship, 27 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: let's be real, is about letting down that guard. It's 28 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: about being goofy and not spending the whole time thinking 29 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: about how you look or how it's going to appear 30 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: later on social media and how you're going to document 31 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: it for Instagram. All of that is sort of a 32 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: deterrent to real friendship. And look, I'm not against social media. 33 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: I've made amazing friends on Twitter, for example, but we 34 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: take that friendship off the internet and into our real lives. 35 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: I think what I'm seeing younger people do is taking 36 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: friends that they have in real life, putting it on 37 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: the Internet and just keeping it there so you meet 38 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: somebody maybe at school, You become friends on Snapchat or 39 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: Instagram or whatever the kids these days are doing, and 40 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: then you just spend your time liking each other's pictures 41 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: or stories or you know, videos, and not actually seeing 42 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: each other in real life. I think that's kind of backwards. 43 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: I think what you should be doing maybe is using 44 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: the Internet to meet people and then taking that into 45 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: your irl. 46 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 2: As the kids say. 47 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: So, a lot of things are going on in the world. 48 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: Why am I focused on whether you know, twenty somethings 49 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: or people of any age have friends. Well, what I 50 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: want this podcast to be about is bigger ideas and 51 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: bigger the than just what's in the news today. It's 52 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: a challenging time for that. I'm not going to lie, 53 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: but the fact that people are lonely and they don't 54 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: have friends is something that should be concerning to all 55 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 1: of us. That loneliness leads to higher anxiety and higher 56 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: depression rates. I mean, there's just no two ways about it. 57 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: It's not good for you not to have friends. It 58 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,119 Speaker 1: leads to a less pleasant world. The person who cut 59 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: you off in traffic and gave you the middle finger 60 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: just probably doesn't have a wide network of support. This 61 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: did actually happen me the other day in Costco, and 62 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: I just imagine the sad life. The guy must be 63 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: leading angry enough to give me a middle finger. Like 64 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: the happiest place on earth, the Costco parking lot. And 65 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: if you're listening to this and you're having a tough 66 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: time connecting to people. 67 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: I can suggest a few steps. I feel like there's 68 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 2: lots of. 69 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: Times in your life that you're going to have to 70 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: make new friends, and it's not easy. 71 00:03:58,440 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: It's not easy. 72 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: I'm a very friendly person, but I understand that it's 73 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: not easy to just. 74 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: Start a new friendship. 75 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: But if you want to make friends and connect, there 76 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,839 Speaker 1: are certainly some things you can do. And the first thing, 77 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: again is moving your life somewhat offline. 78 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 2: And I know it's tough. 79 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: I'm an Internet junkie, I really am. 80 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: I don't watch any TV. 81 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: The TV is never on in my house when I'm 82 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: there alone. Other people might turn it on, but I 83 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: just never even think about it. 84 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 2: I refresh Twitter. 85 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: And Facebook and Instagram a lot, I do, I admit it. 86 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: But a few times a year I take an extensive 87 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: break from Twitter, and I only Twitter because look, while 88 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: I enjoy Facebook and Instagram the way people might enjoy 89 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: an occasional drink, Twitter is my social media drug of 90 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: choice that I find very hard to stop. 91 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 2: So I take these breaks. 92 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: And the first time I did it, I took Twitter 93 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,119 Speaker 1: off my phone and my finger would like just automatically 94 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: go to the place on the phone where Twitter used 95 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: to be. It's like it would just hit the blank spot, 96 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: and I realized, how you know how crazy that is. 97 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: Obviously it was really tough. It was hard. I missed Twitter. 98 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: I wanted back on Twitter. I couldn't wait to get 99 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: back on Twitter. But then future breaks got easier, and 100 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: even that break, after the first few days, I wasn't 101 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: longing for it anymore. 102 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: I didn't even think about it. 103 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: Future breaks got easier, and it got to the point 104 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: where I now I look forward to those breaks. The 105 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: second thing you have to do is make the first move. 106 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: You know, what I hear from people who say they 107 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: don't have friends is that they want a group of friends. 108 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: That's a very common thing for younger people, especially to 109 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: say like, oh, somebody has a really good group of friends. 110 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 2: And I want a group of friends. 111 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: Okay, start with one person, Invite them somewhere, dinner, drinks, 112 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: and activity. If you have a connection over and activity 113 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: that you already enjoy, that would be a good place 114 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: to start. Like in your head, think to yourself, like 115 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: we should go and then whatever is a natural conclusion 116 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: to that question is where you should you know, take 117 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: that first friend opportunity if you haven't even gotten to 118 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: this step, like seeing a person that you might want 119 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: to be friend. I know it's a cliche, but I 120 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: think hobbies is really the way to go with this. 121 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: For me, I love poker, I play no limit, hold them. 122 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: I have made dozens of friends through poker. And you know, 123 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: side note to single women, poker is an amazing place 124 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: to meet men. 125 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: Men out number women by a lot. 126 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: It's a casual social atmosphere. But take it seriously because 127 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: there's nothing worse than the woman who like TII he's 128 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: her way through a poker game like learn to play, 129 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: you know, get your poker face on and go make 130 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: some friends or go meet a man. But if you 131 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: have two friends who enjoy activity X, sure invite them 132 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: both and you have an instant group. But I'm just 133 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: saying that's a little bit tougher than just making one 134 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: friend and then adding on another, et cetera. The main 135 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: thing to do is to do the inviting people. Forget 136 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: that other people also want to make friends and connect. 137 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: They're likely not going to say no to you, so 138 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: be brave and make the first move. And my last 139 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: tip is go easy on yourself and know that developing 140 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: friendships takes time. Our insta culture leads you to believe 141 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: that things should happen quickly and easily, but that's really 142 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: just not how it works. I think that, you know, 143 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: don't beerate yourself like, oh, I have no friends, and 144 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: this is actually what I'm seeing on social media. This 145 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: is sort of what sparked this monologue, is that I 146 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: see these like again, I don't I'm not on TikTok. 147 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: I watch the reels. I see these reels where these 148 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: young women are like making fun of themselves for having 149 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: no friends, and then like years later they still have 150 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: no friends, and how horrible that is. It is horrible. Actually, 151 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: I don't minimize that, but it's not going to happen overnight, 152 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: and it will be a process. End my interview segments, 153 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: usually by asking people to give a tip to my 154 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: listeners on how they can improve their lives. Well, one 155 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: of my top tips easily is to prioritize friendships. I 156 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: do think that it's so important and it is so 157 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: beneficial in so many different areas of your life. 158 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: Even if you're married and have a family, if. 159 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: You have no friends, it's sort of tough, and that 160 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: loneliness that you might not have, you know, as vibrantly 161 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: as people who don't have a relationship also still exists, 162 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: and I think that you should tend to it. You 163 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: shouldn't just ignore it. Make it an essential part of 164 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: your life to develop friendship. 165 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: It matters. 166 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: Coming up after the break, my interview with Brad Wilcox, 167 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: Professor and director of the National Marriage Project at UVA, 168 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: a fellow at the Institute for Family Studies, and the 169 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: author of the new book coming out in February called 170 00:08:54,360 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: Get Married. Welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show. My 171 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: guest today is Brad Wilcox, University of Virginia, sociologist, fellow 172 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: at the Institute for Family Studies, and author of the 173 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: upcoming book Get Married, coming out on Valentine's Day and 174 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: you can pre order it now wherever you buy books. 175 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: I first got to know Brad on Twitter, where he 176 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: has a very matter of fact style and showing the 177 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: benefits of marriage and the problems of our declining marriage 178 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: rates in America. 179 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: Thank you for coming on, Brad. 180 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 3: It's good to be here today, Carol. 181 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 2: So let's get right into it. 182 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: Which societal problems do you trace back to a declining 183 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: marriage rates? 184 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 3: You know, there are a lot of them. 185 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 4: I think a lot of the issues that kind of 186 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 4: generate our public conversations like race, you know, economic and equality, 187 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 4: government spending, you know, educational policy. 188 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 3: I mean, these are all things that are important. 189 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 4: But on some of the outcomes that we're kind of 190 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 4: talking about, we're kind of missing the way which the 191 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 4: family factor actually matters more So, look, for instance, at 192 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 4: recent declines and happiness across the United States that we've 193 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 4: been chronicling, and there's a new should study from Chicago 194 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 4: just showing that the biggest factor driving that decline and 195 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 4: happiness is falling marriage rates and unfortunate those have been 196 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 4: kind of concentrated in a working class and poor Americans. 197 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 4: Kind of one example. I think we're all concerned too 198 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 4: about sort of the health of the American dream, kind 199 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 4: of the way in which, you know, ordinary Americans can 200 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 4: kind of realize some menasure of economic success. And we 201 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 4: know from the work of Raj Chetti at Harvard and 202 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 4: his colleagues that the number one predictor he found in 203 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 4: his work of kind of mobility for poor kids and 204 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 4: communities across the US was the share of two parent 205 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 4: families in those communities. So there's kind of just two 206 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 4: examples of the ways in which kind of the family 207 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 4: factor figures in important ways and ways that are often 208 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 4: not acknowledged, not talked about in today's culture. 209 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 2: Right, So obviously, you know you. 210 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: Kind of push actual marriage, but you hear a lot 211 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: of young people say like, oh, marriage is just a 212 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: piece of paper and it's the relationship that really matters. 213 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 2: Do you agree with that? 214 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting too. 215 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 4: I think what you're hearing is there's often kind of 216 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 4: a conversation both in a sense from the online right 217 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 4: menisphere and then sender from the kind of more progressive 218 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 4: left female sphere that kind of is in some ways 219 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 4: and ironically kind of very similar. And so when you 220 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 4: listen to someone like Andrew Tate talking about marriage, she 221 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 4: basically says, there's you know, ROI, there's no rea turning 222 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 4: on investment from men. 223 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 3: Right, And when you hear a lot of younger. 224 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 4: Journalists and other kind of culture shapers from the left, 225 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 4: predominantly female, they often make kind of the same argument. 226 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 4: And they also make the argument like Tate that kind 227 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 4: of financially it's better just to kind of stay single 228 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 4: and not to. 229 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 3: Kind of invest in marriage. 230 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 4: But we know kind of empirically that those positions on 231 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 4: sort of the far right and the left today are false. 232 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 4: We know that married folks, both men and women, men 233 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 4: are much better shape financially, both in terms of their 234 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 4: income but also in terms of assets that they're acquiring. 235 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 4: What I see among fifty somethings, for instance, for both 236 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 4: men and women, is they have about you know, eight nine, 237 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 4: ten times the assets if they're stable, married compared to 238 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 4: their divorced and never married peers. When it comes to 239 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 4: happiness for both men and women, they are about twice 240 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 4: as I going to be very happy with their lives 241 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 4: if if they're married, and coaptation doesn't kind of measure 242 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 4: up here because it's just much less stable. So we 243 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 4: just see is that folks who are cohabiting don't tend 244 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 4: to go the distance, you know, lacking the kind of 245 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 4: legal recognition, the big ceremony, you know, for some religious peace. 246 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 4: You know, they just don't have all the kind of 247 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 4: cultural benefits that marriage still today delivers. 248 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 3: In this country. 249 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,359 Speaker 1: So I've seen you argue with people who are themselves 250 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: doing what you suggest, you know, getting married, living stable lives, 251 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: but they say to other people that it's really not 252 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: that important. 253 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: So why do you think that is? 254 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: Are they just trying to be nice to other people 255 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 1: making who are making, you know, other choices and not 256 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: following the marriage life. 257 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's funny. 258 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 4: This morning I was having kind of argue with an 259 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 4: online activist about kind of the relative value of marriage 260 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 4: and even what's called the success sequence. We've tangled on 261 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 4: that issue before as well, and this is the idea 262 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 4: that kind of getting at least high school, agree working 263 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 4: full time, and marrying before having kids, those three steps 264 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 4: you know, education, work, and marriage are linked to much 265 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 4: better financial outcomes you And he's kind of argued against 266 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 4: that case. 267 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 3: And now, of course the. 268 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 4: Irony is that this guy has himself followed the sequence. 269 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 4: You know, He's gotten his education, he's gotten a job, 270 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 4: he's gotten married before having his children. 271 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 3: So this is pretty common among. 272 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 4: A lot of the leaders who kind of object to 273 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 4: either the success sequence idea or to marriage you know itself. 274 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 4: They themselves are married, benefiting from the legal and cultural 275 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 4: and financial you know, benefits that flow from marriage, but 276 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 4: kind of being reluctant to talk about it in public. 277 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 3: There's a lot I think kind of behind that. 278 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 4: I think one issue is that they have kind of 279 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 4: this leftist idea that money is what really matters, that 280 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 4: structure is what really matters, and if we kind of 281 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 4: just have you know, giving people more money, or if 282 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 4: we just make sure people have good jobs, that everything 283 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 4: else will kind of fall into place. And the problem 284 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 4: with that mindset is it doesn't recognize that culture matters 285 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 4: as well, the institutions matter as well, and that people 286 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 4: are more likely to flourish when they actually embrace marriage 287 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 4: as institution. And what I'm seeing in my new book 288 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 4: coming out, as you said, for Valentine's Day, is that 289 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 4: those Americans who are more religious, or who are more conservative, 290 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 4: or who are Asian American, or who are college educated 291 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 4: and embrace a lot of the values and virtues that 292 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 4: are classically linked to marriage, things like you know, commitment, fidelity, 293 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 4: for instance, are the ones who enjoy not just the 294 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 4: most stable family lives, but also the happiest marriages. So 295 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 4: there's something about marriage itself that matters for the quality 296 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 4: and stability of family life, even in twenty twenty three 297 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 4: in America today. 298 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: So I'm sure you've saw I'm sure you've seen that 299 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: study from a few months back where parents were asked 300 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: what is important for them for their kids to have. 301 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: And a greater, far greater number of parents said that 302 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: they wanted financial stability for their kids rather than the 303 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: child to get married. 304 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 2: I mean, so what do you do about that? 305 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: If parents are saying, look for us, it's important that 306 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: our kid has you know, financial stability and finds a 307 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: job that they enjoy, et cetera, more than the fact 308 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: that they get married, which you know, really is. 309 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: A societal ender, right. I mean, I've never met parents 310 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: who didn't want to have grandchildren. I mean, to me, 311 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 2: it's an easy call. I have three kids. I mean, 312 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: do I want them to be financially stable? 313 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: Sure? 314 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 2: But do I want grandkids way more than that? Absolutely? 315 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 2: So what do you do about? You know, kind of 316 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 2: just the fact that parents themselves are not pushing marriage 317 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: on their kids. 318 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, And then it's striking. This was Peugh's study of parents. 319 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 4: They have a new survey. I just ordinary Americans kind 320 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 4: of the basic same story, and that is an American 321 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 4: adults tend to think that especially work is. 322 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 3: Going to be more fulfilling for them than marriage and parenthood. 323 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 4: And you know, my new book, you know, Argue is 324 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 4: just the opposite that, in fact, when you look at 325 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 4: what kind of predicts happiness for Americans, what you find 326 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 4: is that marriage does a better job than employment, and 327 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 4: certainly money and education, and a good marriage is just 328 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 4: like the most important factor in predicting people's happiness. It's 329 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 4: far more important and self rated health, religious practice, sexual frequency. 330 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 4: I mean, you kind of named the variable, and a 331 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 4: good marriage is more important. So I think people are 332 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 4: not recognizing, not realizing in claning parents, as you just noted, Carol, 333 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 4: how much kind of family matters across the life course 334 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 4: and you know, into their late years. I think it's 335 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 4: going to be a rude surprise for a lot of 336 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 4: these parents today who've kind of prioritized education and work 337 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 4: career for their kids, to end up heading into their 338 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,719 Speaker 4: sixties and seventies. 339 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 3: Without you know, greats. I mean, it's just going to 340 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 3: be devastating, I think for them. So we have to 341 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 3: kind of change the mindset, just kind of educate people 342 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 3: that family matters more than career. 343 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: I mean, just the fact that you know, married people 344 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: make more money, save more money. 345 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: To me, that's such an easy call. 346 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: So you're prioritizing work life for your kids, but the 347 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: fact is that they would have a much better work 348 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: life if they got married, and you know, all the 349 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: stats proved this out. I think one of the interesting 350 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: ones to me was that single women used to make 351 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: more money than married women, but now that's flipped and 352 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: now married women make more money than single women. And 353 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 1: that's you know, with the very expensive children that we have, 354 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: that still ends up being true. 355 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 4: So yeah, it's an important kind of distinguished between kind 356 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 4: of marriage women and motherhood. So we still see a 357 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 4: huge you know, motherhood penalty when it comes to income, 358 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 4: individual income, fluent. 359 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 3: But what we do see is that. 360 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 4: Overall, you know, married mothers have more house of income 361 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 4: than their single peers, obviously single mothers, but also single 362 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 4: childless women and stably married women as I found it, 363 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 4: you know my own research, are doing well in terms 364 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 4: of their assets as they hit their fifties getting closer 365 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 4: to retirement. So we can't kind of minimize the fact 366 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 4: that there are some choices between kind of like being 367 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 4: you know, a parent and being childless when it comes 368 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 4: to how much you invest in your job. But you know, overall, 369 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 4: the folks who get married and stay married are much 370 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 4: more likely to be flourishing financially. And again I think 371 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 4: on this question with fulfillment, which p has been you know, 372 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 4: looking at Americans think it's about the job, and in reality, 373 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 4: we know it's about you. 374 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 3: Know, having good family relationships and good friendships. Those are 375 00:18:59,280 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 3: much more important. 376 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: So what advice do you give to young people on 377 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: how to achieve that lasting marriage so that their kids 378 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: do have all the advantages of a stable home, but 379 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: the couple is also happy. 380 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: Like what you know, do you have advice for young people? 381 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 3: Sure? 382 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 4: So for folks who are not married, I think the 383 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 4: sort of the point I would make is like, you know, 384 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 4: look around, you know, kind of try to. We do 385 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 4: find that people who kind of meet through their social circles, 386 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 4: and those can be kind of diffuse, tend to do 387 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 4: better oftentimes, whether it's at college or in some kind 388 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 4: of religious context the church and got Temple, Moss, whatever 389 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 4: it might be. So I think kind of recognizing that 390 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,239 Speaker 4: you have social networks and to work with them, use 391 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 4: them if you're in college, to recognize that you're never 392 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 4: going to be around so many young people, you know, 393 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 4: and so it's good to kind of see if there 394 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 4: are any good options for you know, for marriage in 395 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 4: terms of dating in college and so that's sort. 396 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 3: Of one thing that I would say. And then as 397 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 3: people move into. 398 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 4: Their twenties to kind of have that same intalent folks 399 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 4: that they're meeting through work, folks that they're meeting through friends, 400 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 4: and then if they're not having six us, you know, 401 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 4: kind of through these in person relationships. There are certain 402 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 4: apps that are more marriage friendly today that we're seeing 403 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 4: kind of emerge, so, you know, not tender, but there 404 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 4: are other apps that are that are quite intentional about 405 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 4: making marriage by priority, and I think that's that's where 406 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 4: people should be looking if they're not finding success kind 407 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 4: of in these in person context So that's one thing. 408 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 4: It's kind of being more intentional about marriage. And for 409 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 4: folks who are skeptical of this argument that I'm making, 410 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 4: we do see that again that young conservative and young 411 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 4: religious adults are just much more likely to be getting 412 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 4: married today. So that's just kind of one piece of 413 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 4: evidence that kind of putting yourself in certain networks and 414 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 4: context and being intentional about marriage does seem related to 415 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 4: greater success. 416 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 3: Now what about them being successfully married? 417 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 4: And in the book, I articulate kind of the importance 418 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 4: of things like commitment, having this idea that marriage is 419 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 4: for life and not kind of putting divorce you know, 420 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 4: on the table verbally. Otherwise, when you're you know. 421 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 3: Having a kind of difficulty with your spouse, which every 422 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 3: marriage has. 423 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 4: Fidelity, kind of being careful about, you know, sort of 424 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 4: what you do with your free time socially, and you know, 425 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 4: being prudent in that regard to kind of protect your 426 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 4: marriage and to make it clear to other folks in 427 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 4: your social networks that your spouse is your top priority. 428 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 3: I talk to you about kind of the role of community. 429 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 4: And for folks whore religious, that means plugging into a 430 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 4: congregation of one sort or another. For folks who are not, 431 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 4: it means surrounding yourself with people who are kind of 432 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 4: living family centered lines. We are social animals, and if 433 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 4: our friends are likely to be forging stable marriages, our 434 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 4: odds of being stabling married are just much higher. Whereas 435 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 4: if our friends, you know, are getting divorced or not 436 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 4: taking their marriage seriously, our odds of failing at marriage 437 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 4: are just much higher. 438 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 3: So kind of being intentional about that. And then I 439 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 3: talked to you about communion. 440 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 4: In marriage in a variety of ways, like practically means 441 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 4: things like you know, sharing the same bank account. There's 442 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 4: a fascinating the study out showing that couples who are 443 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 4: randomly assigned to having joint accounts did much better in 444 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 4: their first two years of marriage compared to couples who 445 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 4: are randomly assigned to having separate accounts. And the point 446 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 4: right there is it's about kind of a week before 447 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 4: me mentality in terms of how you think about your money, 448 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 4: and that extends, of course to you know, a broader 449 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 4: array of marital choices. One would make another example of 450 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 4: community is just regular date nights. So one thing I 451 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 4: see today quickly among more educated and affluent couples with 452 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 4: kids is that kind of they're so focused on having 453 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 4: the kids do like travel, soccer and violin and you know, 454 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 4: all the school activities, et cetera, that something is lost 455 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 4: and that something is kind of the spark in their marriage. 456 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 4: And so what I would kind of urge all those 457 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 4: kinds of couples to do is just not to lose 458 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 4: sight of the fact that it's important to set aside 459 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 4: time for your relationship. And so like having a regular 460 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 4: date night I try to do Friday nights for instance, 461 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 4: is really helpful and it is one of the sort 462 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 4: of the strongest purchase that we see of a strong 463 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 4: and stable America. 464 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right 465 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. I think that a 466 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: lot of the pro marriage arguments tend to be kind 467 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: of dry and focus really only on the children. But 468 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: kids are you know, obviously very important, but only really 469 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: just one part. 470 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 2: Of the relationship. 471 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: And if you want the relationship to you know, persevere 472 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: after the kids go to college and after they move 473 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: on with their lives, like I. 474 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: Think, it requires some work. 475 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: So let's say somebody believes you that, you know, the 476 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: benefits of two parent families are undeniable and that this 477 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: is definitely the way to go, especially to raise you know, happy, 478 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: successful children. What do you say to the argument that 479 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: sometimes it's just the luck of the draw for people 480 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: that they marry people, well they end up divorcing or 481 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: they have kids on their own, whether they wanted to 482 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: or not. Like, how do we cleared that hurdle and 483 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: you know, kind of move people in the direction of 484 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: having stable marriages when sometimes it just doesn't work out. 485 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 4: Well, there's no question that obviously there are plenty of 486 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 4: relationships that don't work out and there are plenty of 487 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 4: families that aren't stably married. 488 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 3: I was raised by a single mother. 489 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, it's like it's a common reality 490 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 4: in our society too, obviously, so. 491 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 3: And it's not the end of the world. 492 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 4: You know, there are plenty of folks, myself included, have 493 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,479 Speaker 4: done just fine, you know, being raised by single parents. Obviously, 494 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 4: Barack Obama will be another example, and we could talk about, 495 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 4: I mean, any number of people, you know, Jeff Bezos 496 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 4: being obviously an example of someone who's been successful as 497 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 4: a you know, as as a professional. 498 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 3: So it's important just to acknowledge that from the get go. 499 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 4: But what I'm suggesting in the work that I'm doing 500 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 4: is that a kind of marriage mindset really gives you 501 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 4: a leg up in foraging a strong and stable marriage 502 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 4: that for most people most of the time, delivers not 503 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 4: just stability, of course, no surprise there, but a higher 504 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 4: quality marriage as well. And that's because people are more 505 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 4: likely to invest in intimacy to have good relationships when 506 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 4: there is a foundation of security and trust in their relationship. 507 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 4: And so if you have this marriage mindset, if you 508 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 4: embrace commitment, if you are deliberate about being faithful to 509 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 4: your spouse, you know, if you're setting aside time for 510 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 4: them and for your family. You know, this is not 511 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 4: rocket science, it's you know, but of course we all 512 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 4: strutt you know, with like eating right, I mean, we 513 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 4: all know what sort of life support is all that stuff. 514 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 3: But it's the same thing for family life. 515 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 4: If you are faithful, if you're committed, if you invest 516 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 4: time and emotional energy into your spouse and your kids, 517 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 4: you know, if if you're the guy, if you're you know, 518 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 4: a decent worker, you know, holding down a full time job, 519 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 4: you know, and if you're surrounded by other people who 520 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 4: are you know, intentional about treating their spouse and their kids, well, 521 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 4: your odds of flourishing are very high, you know. But 522 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 4: if you don't do those things, and also if you 523 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 4: marry someone who you know is not committed to marriage 524 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 4: and who is not a good friend, who doesn't share 525 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 4: a lot you know, of core commitments and interest with you, 526 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 4: then your odds of flourishing obviously much much lower. 527 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 3: So that's again, I mean, not ever makes good choices. 528 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 3: Bad things happen. 529 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 4: That's part of the reality of life, obviously, but there 530 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 4: are ways to kind of increase your odds of succeeding 531 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 4: in marriage, and my book will kind of detail a 532 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 4: number of those ways. 533 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 3: When it comes out in Vendron Awesome. 534 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 2: So I've been asking this question of my guests. 535 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: This is the last question, and I feel like I 536 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: know what you're going to say, but end with your 537 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: best tip for listeners on how they can improve their lives. 538 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 4: Well, obviously, my book is entitled Get Married, and so 539 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 4: that's that's that's part of the story that I'm obviously telling, 540 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 4: but it's also about, as I said to what I 541 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 4: call forging a family first marriage where your spouse knows 542 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 4: that they're You're kind of top you know, priority basically, 543 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 4: and your kids know that you know that they're the 544 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 4: kind of next priority you know, in your life, and 545 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 4: where your emotional energy and your time and your resources 546 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 4: kind of reflect that. And the kind of people that 547 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 4: you surround yourself with also kind of have that sort 548 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 4: of family first, you know, mentality. So that would be 549 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 4: my tip in terms of, you know, if you're looking 550 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 4: to establish a meaningful life, a life that's not as 551 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 4: likely to be lonely. I mean, I'm certainly I've got 552 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 4: a lot of kids, I'm there are many times when 553 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 4: I'm upset, I'm frustrated, I'm you know, frazzled, but I'm 554 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 4: never I'm never lonely, and most of the time i'm 555 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 4: I'm pretty happy. And we see again in the broader 556 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 4: researchers that people have this kind of family first mindset 557 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 4: in their marriages are just much more going to be 558 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 4: flourishing today. 559 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Brad. The book is called Get Married. 560 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 2: It's coming out Valentine's Day and you can pre order 561 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 2: it now. Thanks so much. 562 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: Okay, thanks Carol, thank you for joining me on the 563 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: Carol Markowitz Show, part of the Clay and Buck podcast 564 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: network on iHeartRadio.