WEBVTT - Unlocking Hidden Potential with Adam Grant 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.196 Pushkin. My good friend Adam Grant, author in psychology professor 0:00:24.196 --> 0:00:27.316 at U Penn, has a new book out, Hidden Potential, 0:00:27.756 --> 0:00:30.596 The Science of Achieving Greater Things. He sent me a 0:00:30.676 --> 0:00:33.676 draft months ago. I told Adam I love it so 0:00:33.756 --> 0:00:35.676 much that when it comes out, I want to sit 0:00:35.716 --> 0:00:38.236 down and interview you about it, and we'll run the 0:00:38.276 --> 0:00:42.116 interview in the Revision's history feed. Sure enough, Hidden Potential 0:00:42.196 --> 0:00:45.556 has now come out, and on Adam's publication day, he 0:00:45.596 --> 0:00:47.636 came to New York and joined me on stage at 0:00:47.636 --> 0:00:50.036 the ninety second Street y for what turned out to 0:00:50.076 --> 0:00:54.196 be a really really fun conversation as we always have 0:00:54.276 --> 0:01:01.716 whenever we get together. So here it is, thank you, 0:01:01.956 --> 0:01:06.396 Thank you all for coming, Adam, thank you for coming 0:01:06.396 --> 0:01:06.916 to New York. 0:01:06.956 --> 0:01:10.436 You know we have done this times we have, and 0:01:10.516 --> 0:01:12.796 this is it's usually on my turf, not yours. 0:01:12.916 --> 0:01:14.156 This is what I was about to say. I was 0:01:14.156 --> 0:01:16.076 going to ask you what is different this time around? 0:01:16.756 --> 0:01:19.916 And you that's exactly right. You have finally come to 0:01:20.036 --> 0:01:23.436 my house. And I was reflecting on this, and I 0:01:23.476 --> 0:01:26.956 was wondering, what kind of an idiot am I that 0:01:27.116 --> 0:01:30.116 I have agreed to go to your turf like seven 0:01:30.156 --> 0:01:33.196 times in a row before demanding that we return to favor. 0:01:33.756 --> 0:01:35.796 This is like a you know in basketball. This is 0:01:35.796 --> 0:01:40.396 like someone seating you know, home territory and saying, oh, well, 0:01:40.476 --> 0:01:42.036 just let's just do it at your arena. 0:01:42.116 --> 0:01:44.116 I will say, though, you once invited me to your 0:01:44.156 --> 0:01:46.796 actual house where we had dinner and you cooked. 0:01:46.916 --> 0:01:47.356 That's true. 0:01:47.396 --> 0:01:48.036 Do you remember this? 0:01:48.156 --> 0:01:50.876 Yeah, I wouldn't say that was necessarily to your advantage 0:01:50.956 --> 0:01:52.116 if I was cooking. 0:01:52.676 --> 0:01:55.396 Well, it definitely wasn't, because I've never told you this, 0:01:55.636 --> 0:01:57.076 But do you remember what you cooked? 0:01:57.796 --> 0:01:57.956 Yew? 0:01:58.676 --> 0:02:02.556 I think it was tilapia really, or it was something 0:02:02.596 --> 0:02:07.436 that swims and I don't eat seafood. But I didn't 0:02:07.436 --> 0:02:10.716 want to hurt your feelings, so I ate it. I 0:02:10.716 --> 0:02:11.916 feel like we're even. 0:02:11.876 --> 0:02:15.956 Adam that that that's very touching you. You you took 0:02:15.996 --> 0:02:19.436 telapia for me, that's I am. I wanted to start. 0:02:19.756 --> 0:02:22.276 We're going to be discussing your book Hidden Potential, but 0:02:22.316 --> 0:02:24.076 I'm looking at the blurbs on the back, and i 0:02:24.156 --> 0:02:28.516 just want to not read the blurbs, but just talk 0:02:28.556 --> 0:02:32.316 about who has blurbed your book. Okay, So the first 0:02:32.356 --> 0:02:37.436 blurb is from Serena Williams, right, World's Greatest transport. The 0:02:37.476 --> 0:02:41.076 second blurb is from Mark Cuban, the famous owner of 0:02:41.116 --> 0:02:45.476 the Dallas Mavericks, the guy who's on Shark Tank. The 0:02:45.556 --> 0:02:50.236 third quote is from Malcolm glaba me. The fourth quote 0:02:50.276 --> 0:02:53.836 is from yo Yo Ma, world's famous cellist, and the 0:02:53.876 --> 0:02:58.436 fourth quote is from US Navy Admiral William McRaven. Okay, Now, 0:03:00.276 --> 0:03:07.076 what's the theory behind the order? Why? Why does Serena 0:03:07.476 --> 0:03:07.836 did she? 0:03:07.996 --> 0:03:08.196 Did? 0:03:08.236 --> 0:03:10.156 She say, I'll give you a blurb if you put 0:03:10.196 --> 0:03:10.676 me first? 0:03:10.996 --> 0:03:11.356 Like? What? 0:03:11.476 --> 0:03:15.676 How does who decided she goes first? Do Cubans say, 0:03:15.956 --> 0:03:18.516 I'm willing to go second to Serena? But not if 0:03:18.516 --> 0:03:22.636 I'm If I'm behind Glavel, I'm you're not kidding him? 0:03:22.716 --> 0:03:23.756 What happened? How did that work? 0:03:23.836 --> 0:03:24.756 I didn't choose the order? 0:03:24.796 --> 0:03:28.796 It's not alphabetical because wait. 0:03:28.636 --> 0:03:28.876 Are you? 0:03:28.956 --> 0:03:31.396 Are you trying to argue for a higher placement than third? 0:03:31.676 --> 0:03:32.836 No? Is that what's happening here? 0:03:33.076 --> 0:03:35.116 No? I don't. I'm not sure. I'm not sure I 0:03:35.156 --> 0:03:37.196 belong third. I think I don't know why I'm ahead 0:03:37.196 --> 0:03:39.276 of Why would I be ahead of Yoyoma? Yoyoma in 0:03:39.356 --> 0:03:42.476 every way is more culturally significant than I ioll be 0:03:42.676 --> 0:03:44.956 from I will be dead and forgotten that people will 0:03:44.956 --> 0:03:49.916 be listening to yoyoma. Okay, William mcgraven defends this country 0:03:50.516 --> 0:03:53.636 and you have a blast like where are your priorities? 0:03:53.716 --> 0:03:55.516 By the way, this is how you treat a guest 0:03:55.556 --> 0:03:55.996 in your home. 0:03:56.396 --> 0:03:58.836 But well, I mean, we have a history of me 0:03:58.996 --> 0:04:03.636 feeding U tilapia. So all right, let's talk about your book, 0:04:04.916 --> 0:04:06.676 which I like a law by the way, otherwise it 0:04:06.716 --> 0:04:09.796 would not have blurbed it. You're interested in character, which 0:04:09.836 --> 0:04:12.396 is is That's sort of an interesting twist, isn't it. 0:04:12.556 --> 0:04:15.036 You would think an organizational psychologists would be someone who 0:04:15.076 --> 0:04:18.996 would be interested in structures and procedures and those kinds 0:04:19.036 --> 0:04:19.476 of things. 0:04:19.636 --> 0:04:22.116 But I'm a psychologist first, and I happen to do 0:04:22.156 --> 0:04:24.276 a lot of my work on people at work. But 0:04:24.476 --> 0:04:26.476 what I care about is people and the quality of 0:04:26.476 --> 0:04:29.316 their lives and how much they get to grow. And 0:04:29.396 --> 0:04:32.156 so if you happen to do that in an organization, great, 0:04:32.196 --> 0:04:35.236 But I could care less about the org chart. But 0:04:35.276 --> 0:04:38.076 I care deeply about helping people reach their potential. 0:04:38.356 --> 0:04:41.836 Yeah. I want to make an additional observation about your 0:04:41.836 --> 0:04:46.396 books as a group, and that is that it's they're 0:04:46.436 --> 0:04:49.956 fundamentally about character as you say, which you're also very 0:04:49.996 --> 0:04:54.636 interested in sort of interrogating our intuitive ideas about character. Right. 0:04:54.716 --> 0:04:59.236 I'm always reminded and you will know this. Didn't Lee 0:04:59.316 --> 0:05:02.036 Ross write a famous paper which was all about how 0:05:02.076 --> 0:05:06.436 our intuitions about psychology are wrong in the in the main, 0:05:07.516 --> 0:05:09.556 and that it seems to me a lot of what 0:05:09.596 --> 0:05:12.036 you're doing in your books, is this a fair summary 0:05:12.036 --> 0:05:14.596 of them? Is you are continuing on that path of 0:05:14.716 --> 0:05:18.236 kind of interrogating our intuitive notions about psychology. 0:05:18.956 --> 0:05:20.436 Some would call that Gladwellian. 0:05:21.756 --> 0:05:24.516 No, I don't think I think you're don't. Don't you're 0:05:24.556 --> 0:05:26.756 deflecting now, Adam, You're. 0:05:26.716 --> 0:05:28.196 You literally just deflected. 0:05:28.316 --> 0:05:29.276 Ah, I don't. 0:05:30.356 --> 0:05:34.116 No, No, is anyone else watching this happen. His deflection 0:05:34.236 --> 0:05:37.956 is accusing me of deflection. It's not a deflection, it's. 0:05:37.756 --> 0:05:42.276 Not no listen, am, I I'm just a flat up contrarian. 0:05:42.876 --> 0:05:47.156 There's a difference between someone who gently interrogates what we 0:05:47.236 --> 0:05:50.836 get wrong as intuitive psychologists and someone like me who 0:05:50.876 --> 0:05:56.596 just says, provocatively and usually erroneously, that everything we think 0:05:56.636 --> 0:06:00.756 is wrong. I'm a bomb throw You're not a bomb thrower. 0:06:01.876 --> 0:06:03.836 Yeah, I guess that's I think that's a parody or 0:06:03.836 --> 0:06:04.876 a caricature of your work. 0:06:04.916 --> 0:06:06.236 But no, I think. 0:06:06.316 --> 0:06:08.716 I think I start with really wanting to understand what 0:06:08.796 --> 0:06:11.996 makes me tick and how we can improve the quality 0:06:12.036 --> 0:06:15.436 of our lives. And then within that I want to 0:06:15.436 --> 0:06:16.556 focus on what's. 0:06:16.356 --> 0:06:17.876 Surprising and unexpected. 0:06:18.316 --> 0:06:21.956 So yes, I think you're right, which causes me pain 0:06:22.036 --> 0:06:22.516 to admit. 0:06:23.956 --> 0:06:28.436 Like we think again. For example, the idea of valorizing 0:06:28.556 --> 0:06:33.156 humility as a kind as the kind of cornerstone the 0:06:33.276 --> 0:06:39.396 key as the cornerstone of intellectual growth is really interesting 0:06:39.716 --> 0:06:43.316 and not one. I imagine if you gathered a group 0:06:43.356 --> 0:06:46.116 of people of students and ask them what did they think, 0:06:46.196 --> 0:06:49.196 what characters trait did they think was the key to 0:06:49.356 --> 0:06:51.916 intellectual growth, humility would not be in the top three. 0:06:52.716 --> 0:06:54.316 No, and that's why I wanted to write about it. 0:06:54.396 --> 0:06:58.516 Yeah, I mean I go to work when we used 0:06:58.556 --> 0:07:01.396 to go to a physical workplace, and still when I 0:07:01.436 --> 0:07:03.876 go to teach, I walk into the classroom and I 0:07:03.956 --> 0:07:11.076 think Donald Trump and Elon Musk both attended this financetitution. Yeah, 0:07:11.076 --> 0:07:13.716 what would I want the next Trump or Musk to learn? 0:07:14.636 --> 0:07:18.236 And strangely, humility is very very high on that list. 0:07:18.716 --> 0:07:28.276 Yeah, I wonder how you could so tell me about 0:07:28.356 --> 0:07:31.956 the thought process that led you to think. Okay, the 0:07:31.996 --> 0:07:37.476 next stage in this journey through character, I wanted, I wanted. 0:07:37.596 --> 0:07:40.436 I wanted to be about hidden potential. How did you 0:07:40.476 --> 0:07:40.956 get there? 0:07:41.636 --> 0:07:43.716 I went down this path because I was once told 0:07:43.756 --> 0:07:44.476 that I couldn't write. 0:07:45.076 --> 0:07:45.756 Who told you that? 0:07:48.156 --> 0:07:52.076 The Harvard Writing Office my first week of college when 0:07:52.116 --> 0:07:55.916 they recommended me for remedial writing, which I was then 0:07:55.996 --> 0:07:59.396 told was for jocks and people who spoke English as 0:07:59.436 --> 0:08:00.876 a sixth or seventh language. 0:08:01.276 --> 0:08:03.396 So wait, keep going, this is interesting. 0:08:04.316 --> 0:08:04.556 Yeah. 0:08:04.596 --> 0:08:08.276 So I I failed the required writing test as a 0:08:08.276 --> 0:08:10.116 as a brand new freshmen. It was the first piece 0:08:10.116 --> 0:08:12.116 of feedback I got from Harvard. And if you think 0:08:12.156 --> 0:08:15.876 I had imposter syndrome before, like already worrying, like I'm 0:08:15.916 --> 0:08:16.516 the one mistake. 0:08:16.556 --> 0:08:18.636 I don't belong here. Now I show up, I. 0:08:18.596 --> 0:08:20.636 Take the writing test, They're like, Nope, you must take 0:08:20.636 --> 0:08:21.876 an extra semester of writing. 0:08:22.876 --> 0:08:24.636 And you can't. 0:08:25.116 --> 0:08:27.156 You can't explain your thoughts coherently, and you don't know 0:08:27.196 --> 0:08:28.316 how to structure an argument. 0:08:30.076 --> 0:08:32.436 And I was like, I think I don't belong here. 0:08:32.716 --> 0:08:34.716 And I think that's the point, right, That's why I 0:08:35.116 --> 0:08:36.716 wanted to write this book. Is we make so many 0:08:36.836 --> 0:08:40.916 judgments of other people's potential, and so often they're driven 0:08:40.916 --> 0:08:44.076 by starting ability. Do you have the raw talent? Are 0:08:44.116 --> 0:08:49.876 you a prodigy? Do you look extremely capable? And if 0:08:49.876 --> 0:08:52.756 the answer is no, you think you should give up yeah, 0:08:52.796 --> 0:08:55.036 because you don't have what it takes. And I think 0:08:55.036 --> 0:08:57.196 that's a huge mistake. I think it counts out a 0:08:57.196 --> 0:09:00.356 ton of late bloomers. I think it overlooks many many 0:09:00.396 --> 0:09:03.556 slow learners. And I think it also prevents us from 0:09:03.596 --> 0:09:05.756 stretching beyond our strengths and actually. 0:09:05.716 --> 0:09:07.396 Achieving more than we believe we're capable of. 0:09:07.556 --> 0:09:10.236 But so wait, but this is interesting because I would 0:09:10.276 --> 0:09:13.796 you know, I associate you you're a Can you give us 0:09:13.796 --> 0:09:16.436 a little more insight into your eighteen year old self? 0:09:16.716 --> 0:09:18.276 You said you had imposter syndrome? 0:09:18.316 --> 0:09:20.556 Why I think I didn't. 0:09:20.596 --> 0:09:22.596 I didn't have any sense of what it took to 0:09:22.636 --> 0:09:24.956 be a Harvard student. I remember going to my interview 0:09:25.036 --> 0:09:28.276 and the interviewer was the first Harvard graduate I ever met, 0:09:29.396 --> 0:09:32.676 and I just I thought that was a different intellectual league. 0:09:32.676 --> 0:09:34.876 I didn't know if I was smart enough. I didn't 0:09:34.916 --> 0:09:35.876 have any patents yet. 0:09:37.596 --> 0:09:41.596 I did not get a perfect SAT score. But you 0:09:41.676 --> 0:09:45.076 got in Yeah, but I didn't know exactly why or how, 0:09:45.956 --> 0:09:48.356 and they're just evaluating me from a bunch of pieces 0:09:48.356 --> 0:09:51.836 of paper, right, which is a pretty It's a pretty 0:09:51.876 --> 0:09:53.716 poor proxy for somebody's potential. 0:09:54.036 --> 0:09:56.556 Yeah, those of us who didn't get into Harvard are 0:09:56.596 --> 0:09:59.436 always baffled by those who did get into Harvard and 0:09:59.556 --> 0:10:10.556 profess to have imposter syndrome. I'm what I'm getting at 0:10:10.556 --> 0:10:13.436 with all these questions about your college heres is to 0:10:13.476 --> 0:10:16.716 what extent this book strikes me? Each one of your 0:10:16.716 --> 0:10:19.876 books is steadily a little more personal. Some of the 0:10:19.876 --> 0:10:22.556 best parts of this book are where you illustrate some 0:10:22.596 --> 0:10:25.916 of your points with personal stories. And I'm wondering whether, 0:10:26.196 --> 0:10:28.636 in some sense this book is a personal is a 0:10:28.636 --> 0:10:30.196 more personal project than. 0:10:30.116 --> 0:10:32.716 Your Yeah, it might be. 0:10:33.036 --> 0:10:36.276 I think I've gotten more comfortable realizing I've gotten so much. 0:10:36.716 --> 0:10:39.716 I guess reader feedback and also listener feedback from podcasts 0:10:39.756 --> 0:10:42.756 like we like hearing your personal stories, Like don't always 0:10:42.996 --> 0:10:43.836 use the data as. 0:10:43.756 --> 0:10:45.916 A crutch, Like they're not a crutch. That's literally what 0:10:45.996 --> 0:10:46.956 I do. It's how I think. 0:10:47.236 --> 0:10:49.356 Like, if you ask me a question about anything, I'll 0:10:49.396 --> 0:10:51.276 be like, well, what is the best randomized control trial 0:10:51.316 --> 0:10:51.596 on that? 0:10:52.716 --> 0:10:56.036 So This is not me avoiding sharing. 0:10:56.156 --> 0:11:00.076 It's that I consider systematic evidence to be a better 0:11:00.116 --> 0:11:04.396 source of knowledge than my idiosyncratic lived experience. But I 0:11:04.476 --> 0:11:06.636 realized that a lot of people's brains don't work that way, 0:11:06.836 --> 0:11:10.076 and I think I've come around to the idea that, yes, 0:11:10.316 --> 0:11:13.676 if I'm sharing my story in service of explaining an 0:11:13.676 --> 0:11:17.516 idea or revealing a lesson, then that's not about me. 0:11:17.636 --> 0:11:20.796 That's actually me trying to offer a gift from my 0:11:20.876 --> 0:11:22.356 life to theirs. 0:11:22.596 --> 0:11:24.516 I think this book is a personal. 0:11:24.196 --> 0:11:28.876 Project because I've realized over the course of writing it 0:11:28.916 --> 0:11:32.156 that all my achievements that I'm actually proud of were 0:11:32.196 --> 0:11:35.876 things that I started out bad at. Yeah, and I 0:11:35.916 --> 0:11:37.876 thought most of my life the opposite was true. I 0:11:37.916 --> 0:11:39.556 thought what I was supposed to be proud of were 0:11:39.636 --> 0:11:40.956 the things that came naturally to me. 0:11:41.156 --> 0:11:42.996 So this is really interesting, and I want to dig 0:11:43.036 --> 0:11:45.596 into many parts of this, but I want to start 0:11:45.636 --> 0:11:49.316 with we were talking earlier about a lot the kind 0:11:49.356 --> 0:11:53.036 of hidden project in many of your books is interrogating 0:11:53.036 --> 0:11:57.996 our kind of lay notions about psychology that are incorrect, 0:11:58.436 --> 0:12:02.276 and I'm curious about this. So the lay notion this 0:12:02.276 --> 0:12:04.436 book is, to your just point you just made the 0:12:04.516 --> 0:12:07.276 lay notion this book is focused on, is we have 0:12:07.436 --> 0:12:11.996 this kind of veneration of inate ability. But in fact, 0:12:12.516 --> 0:12:16.116 what the evidence suggests is that many of the most 0:12:16.116 --> 0:12:21.556 important accomplishes, accomplishments we have are not about what we 0:12:21.636 --> 0:12:24.156 start with, but what we acquire along the way. And 0:12:24.396 --> 0:12:26.076 what I want to know is what I'm curious about 0:12:26.196 --> 0:12:29.996 is why do we have, in this specific respect, a 0:12:30.116 --> 0:12:34.916 lay notion that's so clearly at odds with the facts. 0:12:35.276 --> 0:12:38.916 Where did it? Why do we Why would we venerate 0:12:38.916 --> 0:12:41.476 innate ability if a natability is not nearly as important 0:12:41.516 --> 0:12:44.636 as like, what's the reason for that? 0:12:44.796 --> 0:12:47.996 It's such an interesting question. Off the top of my head, 0:12:47.996 --> 0:12:49.276 I think there are a couple of things going on. 0:12:49.996 --> 0:12:52.916 Number one, how many parents do you know that are 0:12:52.916 --> 0:12:54.756 living vicariously through their kids? 0:12:56.836 --> 0:12:58.516 I mean, your kids are two in less. 0:12:58.316 --> 0:13:02.276 Than a year, so sorry started, sorry started a lot. 0:13:02.236 --> 0:13:05.236 Of people, you know, whether it's you know, wanting their 0:13:05.276 --> 0:13:09.836 kids to be highly intelligent or accomplished in their careers, 0:13:10.076 --> 0:13:14.756 or you know, great athletes or incredible musicians. Whatever dreams 0:13:14.756 --> 0:13:19.236 people have unrealized they often impose on their kids. And 0:13:19.316 --> 0:13:23.036 I think saying I didn't have the natural ability is 0:13:23.316 --> 0:13:28.196 a convenient way to say, you know what, like maybe I. 0:13:28.156 --> 0:13:29.476 Didn't waste my potential. 0:13:30.196 --> 0:13:33.516 I didn't squander an opportunity, which is a lot of 0:13:33.516 --> 0:13:35.956 cognitive dissonance to live with, to say, maybe I could 0:13:35.956 --> 0:13:37.996 have been great, and I just I didn't have the 0:13:38.076 --> 0:13:41.076 right approach to learning, or the right level of discipline 0:13:41.236 --> 0:13:42.036 or the right coach. 0:13:42.996 --> 0:13:44.716 That's that's unsettling to think about. 0:13:44.796 --> 0:13:48.196 And so I think just you know, kind of blaming right, 0:13:49.036 --> 0:13:53.116 a lack of a progress on raw talent and lets 0:13:53.196 --> 0:13:54.676 us off the hook a little bit would be one thought. 0:13:55.476 --> 0:13:59.476 I think the second thought is that when we see 0:13:59.556 --> 0:14:01.556 natural talent, we're just blown away by it. 0:14:02.636 --> 0:14:03.796 You know, if you've ever. 0:14:03.716 --> 0:14:07.356 Watched a four year old playing Mozart, you know, it's 0:14:07.396 --> 0:14:11.516 mind boggling. And that is that that is a human 0:14:11.516 --> 0:14:14.156 that's cut from a different cloth than me, and so 0:14:14.196 --> 0:14:16.716 it's it's hard to ever see yourself in that person. 0:14:16.796 --> 0:14:19.156 I remember, Actually I'll give you a personal example on this, 0:14:19.196 --> 0:14:21.956 since you invited me to talk more about my share. 0:14:22.276 --> 0:14:25.516 So this is about to become the Adam Grant Show. 0:14:26.116 --> 0:14:26.676 Are you ready? 0:14:26.756 --> 0:14:26.956 Yes? 0:14:27.276 --> 0:14:27.596 All right? 0:14:28.916 --> 0:14:32.236 I remember when I so you know, I'm an introvert, 0:14:32.876 --> 0:14:36.476 I'm shy, I was extremely afraid of public speaking and 0:14:36.836 --> 0:14:38.956 when I wanted when I decided I wanted to do it, 0:14:39.836 --> 0:14:41.316 I said, okay, I have to go and learn. 0:14:41.196 --> 0:14:42.036 From great speakers. 0:14:42.516 --> 0:14:45.116 So the first thing I did was I watched videos 0:14:45.236 --> 0:14:47.396 of mlks I have a dream speech. 0:14:48.436 --> 0:14:49.956 It was completely demoralizing. 0:14:51.236 --> 0:14:53.356 I mean, I watched this something I will never no 0:14:53.356 --> 0:14:55.036 matter how hard I work at this, I will never 0:14:55.116 --> 0:14:55.716 get that good. 0:14:56.556 --> 0:15:00.716 I might as well quit now. And I think that. 0:15:00.956 --> 0:15:03.916 I mean, it's just it feels unfathomable. Right when you 0:15:03.956 --> 0:15:06.636 see that the innate ability differences between you and someone 0:15:06.636 --> 0:15:09.516 else could be that great, it just seems impot possible 0:15:09.716 --> 0:15:12.116 for you. And so you assume then that that is 0:15:12.116 --> 0:15:12.836 what is required. 0:15:12.916 --> 0:15:14.876 What you're doing with him, okay, is you're assuming that 0:15:14.916 --> 0:15:18.436 what you're observing is in innate. In fact, he's practiced. 0:15:18.676 --> 0:15:21.956 He grows up in a oral culture in the he 0:15:21.996 --> 0:15:26.116 grows up watching his father and others preach sermons. I mean, 0:15:26.116 --> 0:15:29.596 he's he's surrounded in a world that is you know, 0:15:29.716 --> 0:15:34.876 is speaking in that vein. It's like he's actually not 0:15:34.996 --> 0:15:37.436 the right person to look at and see evidence of. 0:15:37.516 --> 0:15:40.236 That's exactly right, but we don't know it. Watch someone 0:15:40.236 --> 0:15:42.516 as good as as Martin Luther King Jr. And you 0:15:42.596 --> 0:15:45.396 think that's got to be a god given gift. There's 0:15:45.436 --> 0:15:47.956 no way he was ever bad at speaking, right, He's 0:15:47.996 --> 0:15:51.076 too good, It's impossible. What we don't see is the 0:15:51.116 --> 0:15:54.316 history you're describing. We admire people at their peak. We 0:15:54.436 --> 0:15:57.436 don't get to see the distance they've traveled. We don't 0:15:57.476 --> 0:15:59.996 see the fact that he started entering public speaking competitions 0:15:59.996 --> 0:16:02.716 when he was fifteen years old, that he had twenty 0:16:02.796 --> 0:16:05.476 years of deliberate practice under his belt, that the year 0:16:05.516 --> 0:16:07.796 he gave the Dream speech alone, he gave over three 0:16:07.836 --> 0:16:11.636 hundred and fifty speech, which is probably as many speeches 0:16:11.676 --> 0:16:15.996 as you've given in your career, I would imagine. So 0:16:16.116 --> 0:16:20.516 I think we have unfortunate access to greatness. We see 0:16:20.556 --> 0:16:24.436 people at their peak, and we assume that they started 0:16:24.676 --> 0:16:25.476 far ahead of us. 0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:30.836 But is this a universal affliction or an American affliction? 0:16:31.356 --> 0:16:33.476 Because I say, I bring it up because one of 0:16:33.516 --> 0:16:35.676 my favorite chapters in this book is you have a 0:16:35.756 --> 0:16:39.716 chapter on talking about the educational system in Finland and 0:16:39.756 --> 0:16:42.516 how much it differs from the American system and in 0:16:42.556 --> 0:16:45.396 its sort of assumptions about learning and doesn't sound like 0:16:45.436 --> 0:16:49.716 the Finns at least as is expressed in your educational system, 0:16:50.836 --> 0:16:55.036 hold to a notion of innate ability. And you know, so, 0:16:56.036 --> 0:16:59.236 what are we dealing with here? Is there something uniquely 0:16:59.236 --> 0:17:00.596 American about this idea? 0:17:01.036 --> 0:17:05.516 There may be to some extent, I think when yeah, 0:17:05.556 --> 0:17:08.876 when I think about what we do culturally in the US, 0:17:08.956 --> 0:17:11.916 the different from other parts of the world. There is 0:17:11.956 --> 0:17:16.316 a tendency to make the fundamental attribution era more in 0:17:16.356 --> 0:17:20.076 the US. You should define that, Yeah, the tendency to 0:17:20.116 --> 0:17:25.796 attribute people's actions and station to their their innate characteristics 0:17:25.836 --> 0:17:29.876 as opposed to their situation and affordances and opportunity and circumstances. 0:17:30.996 --> 0:17:34.316 An idea that you thoroughly decimated in outliers, I will 0:17:34.356 --> 0:17:37.276 point out, But we still do it a lot in 0:17:37.316 --> 0:17:40.836 the US, right. We like we're an individualistic society. What 0:17:40.876 --> 0:17:42.996 we like to do is we like to say, Okay, 0:17:43.036 --> 0:17:45.716 you you are where you are because of the things 0:17:45.756 --> 0:17:46.836 that are inside of you. 0:17:47.956 --> 0:17:48.596 And I think you're right. 0:17:48.636 --> 0:17:51.356 I think in Finland, I think in Estonia, I think 0:17:51.716 --> 0:17:53.596 we could probably make a whole list of other countries, 0:17:54.276 --> 0:17:57.956 there's a stronger sense that every child has hidden potential 0:17:58.516 --> 0:18:01.156 and it's the job of parents and teachers and coaches 0:18:01.676 --> 0:18:04.556 to realize it in two senses of the word, one 0:18:04.636 --> 0:18:07.716 to recognize it and then to develop it. 0:18:07.716 --> 0:18:10.516 It seems to be fundamentally parodoxical, and no one's properly 0:18:10.556 --> 0:18:13.676 explained to me why it would be the case that 0:18:14.196 --> 0:18:16.756 a culture like the United States, which is the highest 0:18:16.756 --> 0:18:19.956 achieving you could argue it's splies achieving culture in the 0:18:19.956 --> 0:18:23.356 world on a number of metrics, should have a notion 0:18:23.396 --> 0:18:26.836 about achievement that is fundamentally wrong. It just doesn't make 0:18:26.836 --> 0:18:28.836 any sense. In fact, if you said to me that 0:18:28.916 --> 0:18:34.196 America was the one place where people recognize that hard work, 0:18:34.356 --> 0:18:37.916 that everyone has a lot of potential, and that it's 0:18:38.036 --> 0:18:41.356 revealed in hard work practiced over your life, and that 0:18:42.076 --> 0:18:43.996 trying to judge someone on the basis of their performance 0:18:44.036 --> 0:18:47.956 at twelve is a fool's Errand if someone said that 0:18:48.076 --> 0:18:50.316 is a distinctly American view, I would have said, that 0:18:50.396 --> 0:18:53.596 makes sense. It doesn't make any sense at all that 0:18:54.116 --> 0:18:56.796 we should have it backwards of all cultures. 0:18:57.076 --> 0:18:59.596 I think part of the problem is our country feels 0:18:59.636 --> 0:19:02.916 too big to invest in everybody, and so what we 0:19:02.996 --> 0:19:06.036 often do is we say, Okay, well, we're going to 0:19:06.116 --> 0:19:09.476 create gifting and talented programs and we're going to build 0:19:09.556 --> 0:19:12.676 a winner take all system so that the kids with 0:19:12.756 --> 0:19:14.516 the true promise are going to get. 0:19:14.436 --> 0:19:15.316 To rise to the top. 0:19:16.436 --> 0:19:19.916 And that allows us to believe in the. 0:19:19.836 --> 0:19:24.196 Notion of meritocracy. It allows us to feel like we've earned. 0:19:23.996 --> 0:19:26.516 All the success that we've achieved, as opposed to partially 0:19:26.596 --> 0:19:27.396 lucking into it. 0:19:27.796 --> 0:19:29.476 And so I think there is a function there, right. 0:19:29.516 --> 0:19:30.316 It allows us to. 0:19:30.276 --> 0:19:33.476 Think that America, like when we talk about the American 0:19:33.556 --> 0:19:36.396 dream and we say that anybody can live the American dream, 0:19:36.556 --> 0:19:40.116 this is the land of opportunity. We are justifying our system, 0:19:40.436 --> 0:19:43.076 and I think that serves a soothing function for a 0:19:43.076 --> 0:19:43.676 lot of people. 0:19:48.956 --> 0:19:50.996 Another one of my favorite chapters in this book is 0:19:50.996 --> 0:19:57.756 about perfectionism, and it's sort of your critique of where 0:19:57.796 --> 0:20:02.156 perfectionism leads us, what it costs us. And you start 0:20:02.836 --> 0:20:06.596 with a really interesting discussion of your time as a 0:20:06.636 --> 0:20:10.676 diver in high school and how you perfectionist. Can you 0:20:10.716 --> 0:20:14.836 talk a little bit about how your perfectionism manifested itself 0:20:14.836 --> 0:20:16.916 and how you came to believe it was self defeating? 0:20:17.836 --> 0:20:20.476 Yeah, I actually first I didn't know I was a 0:20:20.516 --> 0:20:24.556 perfectionist when I started diving, and then at some point 0:20:25.236 --> 0:20:27.996 it crystallized, and I thought it was a big advantage 0:20:27.996 --> 0:20:31.196 because in diving, I mean, you've all heard Olympic announcers 0:20:31.196 --> 0:20:33.956 say perfect tens, and I thought, okay, in a sport 0:20:33.956 --> 0:20:36.876 that's judged on perfection, aiming for perfection. 0:20:36.596 --> 0:20:37.716 Has got to be the way. 0:20:38.876 --> 0:20:41.716 And it was such a liability for me, more than 0:20:41.716 --> 0:20:46.436 an asset. There are a whole bunch of things that 0:20:46.476 --> 0:20:49.996 I did that were counterproductive. One was I just wasted 0:20:50.036 --> 0:20:52.476