1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin. My good friend Adam Grant, author in psychology professor 2 00:00:24,196 --> 00:00:27,316 Speaker 1: at U Penn, has a new book out, Hidden Potential, 3 00:00:27,756 --> 00:00:30,596 Speaker 1: The Science of Achieving Greater Things. He sent me a 4 00:00:30,676 --> 00:00:33,676 Speaker 1: draft months ago. I told Adam I love it so 5 00:00:33,756 --> 00:00:35,676 Speaker 1: much that when it comes out, I want to sit 6 00:00:35,716 --> 00:00:38,236 Speaker 1: down and interview you about it, and we'll run the 7 00:00:38,276 --> 00:00:42,116 Speaker 1: interview in the Revision's history feed. Sure enough, Hidden Potential 8 00:00:42,196 --> 00:00:45,556 Speaker 1: has now come out, and on Adam's publication day, he 9 00:00:45,596 --> 00:00:47,636 Speaker 1: came to New York and joined me on stage at 10 00:00:47,636 --> 00:00:50,036 Speaker 1: the ninety second Street y for what turned out to 11 00:00:50,076 --> 00:00:54,196 Speaker 1: be a really really fun conversation as we always have 12 00:00:54,276 --> 00:01:01,716 Speaker 1: whenever we get together. So here it is, thank you, 13 00:01:01,956 --> 00:01:06,396 Speaker 1: Thank you all for coming, Adam, thank you for coming 14 00:01:06,396 --> 00:01:06,916 Speaker 1: to New York. 15 00:01:06,956 --> 00:01:10,436 Speaker 2: You know we have done this times we have, and 16 00:01:10,516 --> 00:01:12,796 Speaker 2: this is it's usually on my turf, not yours. 17 00:01:12,916 --> 00:01:14,156 Speaker 1: This is what I was about to say. I was 18 00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:16,076 Speaker 1: going to ask you what is different this time around? 19 00:01:16,756 --> 00:01:19,916 Speaker 1: And you that's exactly right. You have finally come to 20 00:01:20,036 --> 00:01:23,436 Speaker 1: my house. And I was reflecting on this, and I 21 00:01:23,476 --> 00:01:26,956 Speaker 1: was wondering, what kind of an idiot am I that 22 00:01:27,116 --> 00:01:30,116 Speaker 1: I have agreed to go to your turf like seven 23 00:01:30,156 --> 00:01:33,196 Speaker 1: times in a row before demanding that we return to favor. 24 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:35,796 Speaker 1: This is like a you know in basketball. This is 25 00:01:35,796 --> 00:01:40,396 Speaker 1: like someone seating you know, home territory and saying, oh, well, 26 00:01:40,476 --> 00:01:42,036 Speaker 1: just let's just do it at your arena. 27 00:01:42,116 --> 00:01:44,116 Speaker 2: I will say, though, you once invited me to your 28 00:01:44,156 --> 00:01:46,796 Speaker 2: actual house where we had dinner and you cooked. 29 00:01:46,916 --> 00:01:47,356 Speaker 1: That's true. 30 00:01:47,396 --> 00:01:48,036 Speaker 3: Do you remember this? 31 00:01:48,156 --> 00:01:50,876 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wouldn't say that was necessarily to your advantage 32 00:01:50,956 --> 00:01:52,116 Speaker 1: if I was cooking. 33 00:01:52,676 --> 00:01:55,396 Speaker 2: Well, it definitely wasn't, because I've never told you this, 34 00:01:55,636 --> 00:01:57,076 Speaker 2: But do you remember what you cooked? 35 00:01:57,796 --> 00:01:57,956 Speaker 3: Yew? 36 00:01:58,676 --> 00:02:02,556 Speaker 2: I think it was tilapia really, or it was something 37 00:02:02,596 --> 00:02:07,436 Speaker 2: that swims and I don't eat seafood. But I didn't 38 00:02:07,436 --> 00:02:10,716 Speaker 2: want to hurt your feelings, so I ate it. I 39 00:02:10,716 --> 00:02:11,916 Speaker 2: feel like we're even. 40 00:02:11,876 --> 00:02:15,956 Speaker 1: Adam that that that's very touching you. You you took 41 00:02:15,996 --> 00:02:19,436 Speaker 1: telapia for me, that's I am. I wanted to start. 42 00:02:19,756 --> 00:02:22,276 Speaker 1: We're going to be discussing your book Hidden Potential, but 43 00:02:22,316 --> 00:02:24,076 Speaker 1: I'm looking at the blurbs on the back, and i 44 00:02:24,156 --> 00:02:28,516 Speaker 1: just want to not read the blurbs, but just talk 45 00:02:28,556 --> 00:02:32,316 Speaker 1: about who has blurbed your book. Okay, So the first 46 00:02:32,356 --> 00:02:37,436 Speaker 1: blurb is from Serena Williams, right, World's Greatest transport. The 47 00:02:37,476 --> 00:02:41,076 Speaker 1: second blurb is from Mark Cuban, the famous owner of 48 00:02:41,116 --> 00:02:45,476 Speaker 1: the Dallas Mavericks, the guy who's on Shark Tank. The 49 00:02:45,556 --> 00:02:50,236 Speaker 1: third quote is from Malcolm glaba me. The fourth quote 50 00:02:50,276 --> 00:02:53,836 Speaker 1: is from yo Yo Ma, world's famous cellist, and the 51 00:02:53,876 --> 00:02:58,436 Speaker 1: fourth quote is from US Navy Admiral William McRaven. Okay, Now, 52 00:03:00,276 --> 00:03:07,076 Speaker 1: what's the theory behind the order? Why? Why does Serena 53 00:03:07,476 --> 00:03:07,836 Speaker 1: did she? 54 00:03:07,996 --> 00:03:08,196 Speaker 3: Did? 55 00:03:08,236 --> 00:03:10,156 Speaker 1: She say, I'll give you a blurb if you put 56 00:03:10,196 --> 00:03:10,676 Speaker 1: me first? 57 00:03:10,996 --> 00:03:11,356 Speaker 3: Like? What? 58 00:03:11,476 --> 00:03:15,676 Speaker 1: How does who decided she goes first? Do Cubans say, 59 00:03:15,956 --> 00:03:18,516 Speaker 1: I'm willing to go second to Serena? But not if 60 00:03:18,516 --> 00:03:22,636 Speaker 1: I'm If I'm behind Glavel, I'm you're not kidding him? 61 00:03:22,716 --> 00:03:23,756 Speaker 1: What happened? How did that work? 62 00:03:23,836 --> 00:03:24,756 Speaker 3: I didn't choose the order? 63 00:03:24,796 --> 00:03:28,796 Speaker 1: It's not alphabetical because wait. 64 00:03:28,636 --> 00:03:28,876 Speaker 3: Are you? 65 00:03:28,956 --> 00:03:31,396 Speaker 2: Are you trying to argue for a higher placement than third? 66 00:03:31,676 --> 00:03:32,836 Speaker 3: No? Is that what's happening here? 67 00:03:33,076 --> 00:03:35,116 Speaker 1: No? I don't. I'm not sure. I'm not sure I 68 00:03:35,156 --> 00:03:37,196 Speaker 1: belong third. I think I don't know why I'm ahead 69 00:03:37,196 --> 00:03:39,276 Speaker 1: of Why would I be ahead of Yoyoma? Yoyoma in 70 00:03:39,356 --> 00:03:42,476 Speaker 1: every way is more culturally significant than I ioll be 71 00:03:42,676 --> 00:03:44,956 Speaker 1: from I will be dead and forgotten that people will 72 00:03:44,956 --> 00:03:49,916 Speaker 1: be listening to yoyoma. Okay, William mcgraven defends this country 73 00:03:50,516 --> 00:03:53,636 Speaker 1: and you have a blast like where are your priorities? 74 00:03:53,716 --> 00:03:55,516 Speaker 3: By the way, this is how you treat a guest 75 00:03:55,556 --> 00:03:55,996 Speaker 3: in your home. 76 00:03:56,396 --> 00:03:58,836 Speaker 1: But well, I mean, we have a history of me 77 00:03:58,996 --> 00:04:03,636 Speaker 1: feeding U tilapia. So all right, let's talk about your book, 78 00:04:04,916 --> 00:04:06,676 Speaker 1: which I like a law by the way, otherwise it 79 00:04:06,716 --> 00:04:09,796 Speaker 1: would not have blurbed it. You're interested in character, which 80 00:04:09,836 --> 00:04:12,396 Speaker 1: is is That's sort of an interesting twist, isn't it. 81 00:04:12,556 --> 00:04:15,036 Speaker 1: You would think an organizational psychologists would be someone who 82 00:04:15,076 --> 00:04:18,996 Speaker 1: would be interested in structures and procedures and those kinds 83 00:04:19,036 --> 00:04:19,476 Speaker 1: of things. 84 00:04:19,636 --> 00:04:22,116 Speaker 2: But I'm a psychologist first, and I happen to do 85 00:04:22,156 --> 00:04:24,276 Speaker 2: a lot of my work on people at work. But 86 00:04:24,476 --> 00:04:26,476 Speaker 2: what I care about is people and the quality of 87 00:04:26,476 --> 00:04:29,316 Speaker 2: their lives and how much they get to grow. And 88 00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:32,156 Speaker 2: so if you happen to do that in an organization, great, 89 00:04:32,196 --> 00:04:35,236 Speaker 2: But I could care less about the org chart. But 90 00:04:35,276 --> 00:04:38,076 Speaker 2: I care deeply about helping people reach their potential. 91 00:04:38,356 --> 00:04:41,836 Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to make an additional observation about your 92 00:04:41,836 --> 00:04:46,396 Speaker 1: books as a group, and that is that it's they're 93 00:04:46,436 --> 00:04:49,956 Speaker 1: fundamentally about character as you say, which you're also very 94 00:04:49,996 --> 00:04:54,636 Speaker 1: interested in sort of interrogating our intuitive ideas about character. Right. 95 00:04:54,716 --> 00:04:59,236 Speaker 1: I'm always reminded and you will know this. Didn't Lee 96 00:04:59,316 --> 00:05:02,036 Speaker 1: Ross write a famous paper which was all about how 97 00:05:02,076 --> 00:05:06,436 Speaker 1: our intuitions about psychology are wrong in the in the main, 98 00:05:07,516 --> 00:05:09,556 Speaker 1: and that it seems to me a lot of what 99 00:05:09,596 --> 00:05:12,036 Speaker 1: you're doing in your books, is this a fair summary 100 00:05:12,036 --> 00:05:14,596 Speaker 1: of them? Is you are continuing on that path of 101 00:05:14,716 --> 00:05:18,236 Speaker 1: kind of interrogating our intuitive notions about psychology. 102 00:05:18,956 --> 00:05:20,436 Speaker 3: Some would call that Gladwellian. 103 00:05:21,756 --> 00:05:24,516 Speaker 1: No, I don't think I think you're don't. Don't you're 104 00:05:24,556 --> 00:05:26,756 Speaker 1: deflecting now, Adam, You're. 105 00:05:26,716 --> 00:05:28,196 Speaker 3: You literally just deflected. 106 00:05:28,316 --> 00:05:29,276 Speaker 1: Ah, I don't. 107 00:05:30,356 --> 00:05:34,116 Speaker 3: No, No, is anyone else watching this happen. His deflection 108 00:05:34,236 --> 00:05:37,956 Speaker 3: is accusing me of deflection. It's not a deflection, it's. 109 00:05:37,756 --> 00:05:42,276 Speaker 1: Not no listen, am, I I'm just a flat up contrarian. 110 00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:47,156 Speaker 1: There's a difference between someone who gently interrogates what we 111 00:05:47,236 --> 00:05:50,836 Speaker 1: get wrong as intuitive psychologists and someone like me who 112 00:05:50,876 --> 00:05:56,596 Speaker 1: just says, provocatively and usually erroneously, that everything we think 113 00:05:56,636 --> 00:06:00,756 Speaker 1: is wrong. I'm a bomb throw You're not a bomb thrower. 114 00:06:01,876 --> 00:06:03,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's I think that's a parody or 115 00:06:03,836 --> 00:06:04,876 Speaker 2: a caricature of your work. 116 00:06:04,916 --> 00:06:06,236 Speaker 3: But no, I think. 117 00:06:06,316 --> 00:06:08,716 Speaker 2: I think I start with really wanting to understand what 118 00:06:08,796 --> 00:06:11,996 Speaker 2: makes me tick and how we can improve the quality 119 00:06:12,036 --> 00:06:15,436 Speaker 2: of our lives. And then within that I want to 120 00:06:15,436 --> 00:06:16,556 Speaker 2: focus on what's. 121 00:06:16,356 --> 00:06:17,876 Speaker 3: Surprising and unexpected. 122 00:06:18,316 --> 00:06:21,956 Speaker 2: So yes, I think you're right, which causes me pain 123 00:06:22,036 --> 00:06:22,516 Speaker 2: to admit. 124 00:06:23,956 --> 00:06:28,436 Speaker 1: Like we think again. For example, the idea of valorizing 125 00:06:28,556 --> 00:06:33,156 Speaker 1: humility as a kind as the kind of cornerstone the 126 00:06:33,276 --> 00:06:39,396 Speaker 1: key as the cornerstone of intellectual growth is really interesting 127 00:06:39,716 --> 00:06:43,316 Speaker 1: and not one. I imagine if you gathered a group 128 00:06:43,356 --> 00:06:46,116 Speaker 1: of people of students and ask them what did they think, 129 00:06:46,196 --> 00:06:49,196 Speaker 1: what characters trait did they think was the key to 130 00:06:49,356 --> 00:06:51,916 Speaker 1: intellectual growth, humility would not be in the top three. 131 00:06:52,716 --> 00:06:54,316 Speaker 3: No, and that's why I wanted to write about it. 132 00:06:54,396 --> 00:06:58,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I go to work when we used 133 00:06:58,556 --> 00:07:01,396 Speaker 2: to go to a physical workplace, and still when I 134 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:03,876 Speaker 2: go to teach, I walk into the classroom and I 135 00:07:03,956 --> 00:07:11,076 Speaker 2: think Donald Trump and Elon Musk both attended this financetitution. Yeah, 136 00:07:11,076 --> 00:07:13,716 Speaker 2: what would I want the next Trump or Musk to learn? 137 00:07:14,636 --> 00:07:18,236 Speaker 2: And strangely, humility is very very high on that list. 138 00:07:18,716 --> 00:07:28,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder how you could so tell me about 139 00:07:28,356 --> 00:07:31,956 Speaker 1: the thought process that led you to think. Okay, the 140 00:07:31,996 --> 00:07:37,476 Speaker 1: next stage in this journey through character, I wanted, I wanted. 141 00:07:37,596 --> 00:07:40,436 Speaker 1: I wanted to be about hidden potential. How did you 142 00:07:40,476 --> 00:07:40,956 Speaker 1: get there? 143 00:07:41,636 --> 00:07:43,716 Speaker 2: I went down this path because I was once told 144 00:07:43,756 --> 00:07:44,476 Speaker 2: that I couldn't write. 145 00:07:45,076 --> 00:07:45,756 Speaker 1: Who told you that? 146 00:07:48,156 --> 00:07:52,076 Speaker 2: The Harvard Writing Office my first week of college when 147 00:07:52,116 --> 00:07:55,916 Speaker 2: they recommended me for remedial writing, which I was then 148 00:07:55,996 --> 00:07:59,396 Speaker 2: told was for jocks and people who spoke English as 149 00:07:59,436 --> 00:08:00,876 Speaker 2: a sixth or seventh language. 150 00:08:01,276 --> 00:08:03,396 Speaker 1: So wait, keep going, this is interesting. 151 00:08:04,316 --> 00:08:04,556 Speaker 3: Yeah. 152 00:08:04,596 --> 00:08:08,276 Speaker 2: So I I failed the required writing test as a 153 00:08:08,276 --> 00:08:10,116 Speaker 2: as a brand new freshmen. It was the first piece 154 00:08:10,116 --> 00:08:12,116 Speaker 2: of feedback I got from Harvard. And if you think 155 00:08:12,156 --> 00:08:15,876 Speaker 2: I had imposter syndrome before, like already worrying, like I'm 156 00:08:15,916 --> 00:08:16,516 Speaker 2: the one mistake. 157 00:08:16,556 --> 00:08:18,636 Speaker 3: I don't belong here. Now I show up, I. 158 00:08:18,596 --> 00:08:20,636 Speaker 2: Take the writing test, They're like, Nope, you must take 159 00:08:20,636 --> 00:08:21,876 Speaker 2: an extra semester of writing. 160 00:08:22,876 --> 00:08:24,636 Speaker 3: And you can't. 161 00:08:25,116 --> 00:08:27,156 Speaker 2: You can't explain your thoughts coherently, and you don't know 162 00:08:27,196 --> 00:08:28,316 Speaker 2: how to structure an argument. 163 00:08:30,076 --> 00:08:32,436 Speaker 3: And I was like, I think I don't belong here. 164 00:08:32,716 --> 00:08:34,716 Speaker 2: And I think that's the point, right, That's why I 165 00:08:35,116 --> 00:08:36,716 Speaker 2: wanted to write this book. Is we make so many 166 00:08:36,836 --> 00:08:40,916 Speaker 2: judgments of other people's potential, and so often they're driven 167 00:08:40,916 --> 00:08:44,076 Speaker 2: by starting ability. Do you have the raw talent? Are 168 00:08:44,116 --> 00:08:49,876 Speaker 2: you a prodigy? Do you look extremely capable? And if 169 00:08:49,876 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 2: the answer is no, you think you should give up yeah, 170 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:55,036 Speaker 2: because you don't have what it takes. And I think 171 00:08:55,036 --> 00:08:57,196 Speaker 2: that's a huge mistake. I think it counts out a 172 00:08:57,196 --> 00:09:00,356 Speaker 2: ton of late bloomers. I think it overlooks many many 173 00:09:00,396 --> 00:09:03,556 Speaker 2: slow learners. And I think it also prevents us from 174 00:09:03,596 --> 00:09:05,756 Speaker 2: stretching beyond our strengths and actually. 175 00:09:05,716 --> 00:09:07,396 Speaker 3: Achieving more than we believe we're capable of. 176 00:09:07,556 --> 00:09:10,236 Speaker 1: But so wait, but this is interesting because I would 177 00:09:10,276 --> 00:09:13,796 Speaker 1: you know, I associate you you're a Can you give us 178 00:09:13,796 --> 00:09:16,436 Speaker 1: a little more insight into your eighteen year old self? 179 00:09:16,716 --> 00:09:18,276 Speaker 1: You said you had imposter syndrome? 180 00:09:18,316 --> 00:09:20,556 Speaker 3: Why I think I didn't. 181 00:09:20,596 --> 00:09:22,596 Speaker 2: I didn't have any sense of what it took to 182 00:09:22,636 --> 00:09:24,956 Speaker 2: be a Harvard student. I remember going to my interview 183 00:09:25,036 --> 00:09:28,276 Speaker 2: and the interviewer was the first Harvard graduate I ever met, 184 00:09:29,396 --> 00:09:32,676 Speaker 2: and I just I thought that was a different intellectual league. 185 00:09:32,676 --> 00:09:34,876 Speaker 3: I didn't know if I was smart enough. I didn't 186 00:09:34,916 --> 00:09:35,876 Speaker 3: have any patents yet. 187 00:09:37,596 --> 00:09:41,596 Speaker 2: I did not get a perfect SAT score. But you 188 00:09:41,676 --> 00:09:45,076 Speaker 2: got in Yeah, but I didn't know exactly why or how, 189 00:09:45,956 --> 00:09:48,356 Speaker 2: and they're just evaluating me from a bunch of pieces 190 00:09:48,356 --> 00:09:51,836 Speaker 2: of paper, right, which is a pretty It's a pretty 191 00:09:51,876 --> 00:09:53,716 Speaker 2: poor proxy for somebody's potential. 192 00:09:54,036 --> 00:09:56,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, those of us who didn't get into Harvard are 193 00:09:56,596 --> 00:09:59,436 Speaker 1: always baffled by those who did get into Harvard and 194 00:09:59,556 --> 00:10:10,556 Speaker 1: profess to have imposter syndrome. I'm what I'm getting at 195 00:10:10,556 --> 00:10:13,436 Speaker 1: with all these questions about your college heres is to 196 00:10:13,476 --> 00:10:16,716 Speaker 1: what extent this book strikes me? Each one of your 197 00:10:16,716 --> 00:10:19,876 Speaker 1: books is steadily a little more personal. Some of the 198 00:10:19,876 --> 00:10:22,556 Speaker 1: best parts of this book are where you illustrate some 199 00:10:22,596 --> 00:10:25,916 Speaker 1: of your points with personal stories. And I'm wondering whether, 200 00:10:26,196 --> 00:10:28,636 Speaker 1: in some sense this book is a personal is a 201 00:10:28,636 --> 00:10:30,196 Speaker 1: more personal project than. 202 00:10:30,116 --> 00:10:32,716 Speaker 3: Your Yeah, it might be. 203 00:10:33,036 --> 00:10:36,276 Speaker 2: I think I've gotten more comfortable realizing I've gotten so much. 204 00:10:36,716 --> 00:10:39,716 Speaker 2: I guess reader feedback and also listener feedback from podcasts 205 00:10:39,756 --> 00:10:42,756 Speaker 2: like we like hearing your personal stories, Like don't always 206 00:10:42,996 --> 00:10:43,836 Speaker 2: use the data as. 207 00:10:43,756 --> 00:10:45,916 Speaker 3: A crutch, Like they're not a crutch. That's literally what 208 00:10:45,996 --> 00:10:46,956 Speaker 3: I do. It's how I think. 209 00:10:47,236 --> 00:10:49,356 Speaker 2: Like, if you ask me a question about anything, I'll 210 00:10:49,396 --> 00:10:51,276 Speaker 2: be like, well, what is the best randomized control trial 211 00:10:51,316 --> 00:10:51,596 Speaker 2: on that? 212 00:10:52,716 --> 00:10:56,036 Speaker 3: So This is not me avoiding sharing. 213 00:10:56,156 --> 00:11:00,076 Speaker 2: It's that I consider systematic evidence to be a better 214 00:11:00,116 --> 00:11:04,396 Speaker 2: source of knowledge than my idiosyncratic lived experience. But I 215 00:11:04,476 --> 00:11:06,636 Speaker 2: realized that a lot of people's brains don't work that way, 216 00:11:06,836 --> 00:11:10,076 Speaker 2: and I think I've come around to the idea that, yes, 217 00:11:10,316 --> 00:11:13,676 Speaker 2: if I'm sharing my story in service of explaining an 218 00:11:13,676 --> 00:11:17,516 Speaker 2: idea or revealing a lesson, then that's not about me. 219 00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 2: That's actually me trying to offer a gift from my 220 00:11:20,876 --> 00:11:22,356 Speaker 2: life to theirs. 221 00:11:22,596 --> 00:11:24,516 Speaker 3: I think this book is a personal. 222 00:11:24,196 --> 00:11:28,876 Speaker 2: Project because I've realized over the course of writing it 223 00:11:28,916 --> 00:11:32,156 Speaker 2: that all my achievements that I'm actually proud of were 224 00:11:32,196 --> 00:11:35,876 Speaker 2: things that I started out bad at. Yeah, and I 225 00:11:35,916 --> 00:11:37,876 Speaker 2: thought most of my life the opposite was true. I 226 00:11:37,916 --> 00:11:39,556 Speaker 2: thought what I was supposed to be proud of were 227 00:11:39,636 --> 00:11:40,956 Speaker 2: the things that came naturally to me. 228 00:11:41,156 --> 00:11:42,996 Speaker 1: So this is really interesting, and I want to dig 229 00:11:43,036 --> 00:11:45,596 Speaker 1: into many parts of this, but I want to start 230 00:11:45,636 --> 00:11:49,316 Speaker 1: with we were talking earlier about a lot the kind 231 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:53,036 Speaker 1: of hidden project in many of your books is interrogating 232 00:11:53,036 --> 00:11:57,996 Speaker 1: our kind of lay notions about psychology that are incorrect, 233 00:11:58,436 --> 00:12:02,276 Speaker 1: and I'm curious about this. So the lay notion this 234 00:12:02,276 --> 00:12:04,436 Speaker 1: book is, to your just point you just made the 235 00:12:04,516 --> 00:12:07,276 Speaker 1: lay notion this book is focused on, is we have 236 00:12:07,436 --> 00:12:11,996 Speaker 1: this kind of veneration of inate ability. But in fact, 237 00:12:12,516 --> 00:12:16,116 Speaker 1: what the evidence suggests is that many of the most 238 00:12:16,116 --> 00:12:21,556 Speaker 1: important accomplishes, accomplishments we have are not about what we 239 00:12:21,636 --> 00:12:24,156 Speaker 1: start with, but what we acquire along the way. And 240 00:12:24,396 --> 00:12:26,076 Speaker 1: what I want to know is what I'm curious about 241 00:12:26,196 --> 00:12:29,996 Speaker 1: is why do we have, in this specific respect, a 242 00:12:30,116 --> 00:12:34,916 Speaker 1: lay notion that's so clearly at odds with the facts. 243 00:12:35,276 --> 00:12:38,916 Speaker 1: Where did it? Why do we Why would we venerate 244 00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:41,476 Speaker 1: innate ability if a natability is not nearly as important 245 00:12:41,516 --> 00:12:44,636 Speaker 1: as like, what's the reason for that? 246 00:12:44,796 --> 00:12:47,996 Speaker 2: It's such an interesting question. Off the top of my head, 247 00:12:47,996 --> 00:12:49,276 Speaker 2: I think there are a couple of things going on. 248 00:12:49,996 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 2: Number one, how many parents do you know that are 249 00:12:52,916 --> 00:12:54,756 Speaker 2: living vicariously through their kids? 250 00:12:56,836 --> 00:12:58,516 Speaker 3: I mean, your kids are two in less. 251 00:12:58,316 --> 00:13:02,276 Speaker 1: Than a year, so sorry started, sorry started a lot. 252 00:13:02,236 --> 00:13:05,236 Speaker 2: Of people, you know, whether it's you know, wanting their 253 00:13:05,276 --> 00:13:09,836 Speaker 2: kids to be highly intelligent or accomplished in their careers, 254 00:13:10,076 --> 00:13:14,756 Speaker 2: or you know, great athletes or incredible musicians. Whatever dreams 255 00:13:14,756 --> 00:13:19,236 Speaker 2: people have unrealized they often impose on their kids. And 256 00:13:19,316 --> 00:13:23,036 Speaker 2: I think saying I didn't have the natural ability is 257 00:13:23,316 --> 00:13:28,196 Speaker 2: a convenient way to say, you know what, like maybe I. 258 00:13:28,156 --> 00:13:29,476 Speaker 3: Didn't waste my potential. 259 00:13:30,196 --> 00:13:33,516 Speaker 2: I didn't squander an opportunity, which is a lot of 260 00:13:33,516 --> 00:13:35,956 Speaker 2: cognitive dissonance to live with, to say, maybe I could 261 00:13:35,956 --> 00:13:37,996 Speaker 2: have been great, and I just I didn't have the 262 00:13:38,076 --> 00:13:41,076 Speaker 2: right approach to learning, or the right level of discipline 263 00:13:41,236 --> 00:13:42,036 Speaker 2: or the right coach. 264 00:13:42,996 --> 00:13:44,716 Speaker 3: That's that's unsettling to think about. 265 00:13:44,796 --> 00:13:48,196 Speaker 2: And so I think just you know, kind of blaming right, 266 00:13:49,036 --> 00:13:53,116 Speaker 2: a lack of a progress on raw talent and lets 267 00:13:53,196 --> 00:13:54,676 Speaker 2: us off the hook a little bit would be one thought. 268 00:13:55,476 --> 00:13:59,476 Speaker 2: I think the second thought is that when we see 269 00:13:59,556 --> 00:14:01,556 Speaker 2: natural talent, we're just blown away by it. 270 00:14:02,636 --> 00:14:03,796 Speaker 3: You know, if you've ever. 271 00:14:03,716 --> 00:14:07,356 Speaker 2: Watched a four year old playing Mozart, you know, it's 272 00:14:07,396 --> 00:14:11,516 Speaker 2: mind boggling. And that is that that is a human 273 00:14:11,516 --> 00:14:14,156 Speaker 2: that's cut from a different cloth than me, and so 274 00:14:14,196 --> 00:14:16,716 Speaker 2: it's it's hard to ever see yourself in that person. 275 00:14:16,796 --> 00:14:19,156 Speaker 2: I remember, Actually I'll give you a personal example on this, 276 00:14:19,196 --> 00:14:21,956 Speaker 2: since you invited me to talk more about my share. 277 00:14:22,276 --> 00:14:25,516 Speaker 2: So this is about to become the Adam Grant Show. 278 00:14:26,116 --> 00:14:26,676 Speaker 3: Are you ready? 279 00:14:26,756 --> 00:14:26,956 Speaker 2: Yes? 280 00:14:27,276 --> 00:14:27,596 Speaker 1: All right? 281 00:14:28,916 --> 00:14:32,236 Speaker 2: I remember when I so you know, I'm an introvert, 282 00:14:32,876 --> 00:14:36,476 Speaker 2: I'm shy, I was extremely afraid of public speaking and 283 00:14:36,836 --> 00:14:38,956 Speaker 2: when I wanted when I decided I wanted to do it, 284 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:41,316 Speaker 2: I said, okay, I have to go and learn. 285 00:14:41,196 --> 00:14:42,036 Speaker 3: From great speakers. 286 00:14:42,516 --> 00:14:45,116 Speaker 2: So the first thing I did was I watched videos 287 00:14:45,236 --> 00:14:47,396 Speaker 2: of mlks I have a dream speech. 288 00:14:48,436 --> 00:14:49,956 Speaker 3: It was completely demoralizing. 289 00:14:51,236 --> 00:14:53,356 Speaker 2: I mean, I watched this something I will never no 290 00:14:53,356 --> 00:14:55,036 Speaker 2: matter how hard I work at this, I will never 291 00:14:55,116 --> 00:14:55,716 Speaker 2: get that good. 292 00:14:56,556 --> 00:15:00,716 Speaker 3: I might as well quit now. And I think that. 293 00:15:00,956 --> 00:15:03,916 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it feels unfathomable. Right when you 294 00:15:03,956 --> 00:15:06,636 Speaker 2: see that the innate ability differences between you and someone 295 00:15:06,636 --> 00:15:09,516 Speaker 2: else could be that great, it just seems impot possible 296 00:15:09,716 --> 00:15:12,116 Speaker 2: for you. And so you assume then that that is 297 00:15:12,116 --> 00:15:12,836 Speaker 2: what is required. 298 00:15:12,916 --> 00:15:14,876 Speaker 1: What you're doing with him, okay, is you're assuming that 299 00:15:14,916 --> 00:15:18,436 Speaker 1: what you're observing is in innate. In fact, he's practiced. 300 00:15:18,676 --> 00:15:21,956 Speaker 1: He grows up in a oral culture in the he 301 00:15:21,996 --> 00:15:26,116 Speaker 1: grows up watching his father and others preach sermons. I mean, 302 00:15:26,116 --> 00:15:29,596 Speaker 1: he's he's surrounded in a world that is you know, 303 00:15:29,716 --> 00:15:34,876 Speaker 1: is speaking in that vein. It's like he's actually not 304 00:15:34,996 --> 00:15:37,436 Speaker 1: the right person to look at and see evidence of. 305 00:15:37,516 --> 00:15:40,236 Speaker 2: That's exactly right, but we don't know it. Watch someone 306 00:15:40,236 --> 00:15:42,516 Speaker 2: as good as as Martin Luther King Jr. And you 307 00:15:42,596 --> 00:15:45,396 Speaker 2: think that's got to be a god given gift. There's 308 00:15:45,436 --> 00:15:47,956 Speaker 2: no way he was ever bad at speaking, right, He's 309 00:15:47,996 --> 00:15:51,076 Speaker 2: too good, It's impossible. What we don't see is the 310 00:15:51,116 --> 00:15:54,316 Speaker 2: history you're describing. We admire people at their peak. We 311 00:15:54,436 --> 00:15:57,436 Speaker 2: don't get to see the distance they've traveled. We don't 312 00:15:57,476 --> 00:15:59,996 Speaker 2: see the fact that he started entering public speaking competitions 313 00:15:59,996 --> 00:16:02,716 Speaker 2: when he was fifteen years old, that he had twenty 314 00:16:02,796 --> 00:16:05,476 Speaker 2: years of deliberate practice under his belt, that the year 315 00:16:05,516 --> 00:16:07,796 Speaker 2: he gave the Dream speech alone, he gave over three 316 00:16:07,836 --> 00:16:11,636 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty speech, which is probably as many speeches 317 00:16:11,676 --> 00:16:15,996 Speaker 2: as you've given in your career, I would imagine. So 318 00:16:16,116 --> 00:16:20,516 Speaker 2: I think we have unfortunate access to greatness. We see 319 00:16:20,556 --> 00:16:24,436 Speaker 2: people at their peak, and we assume that they started 320 00:16:24,676 --> 00:16:25,476 Speaker 2: far ahead of us. 321 00:16:26,436 --> 00:16:30,836 Speaker 1: But is this a universal affliction or an American affliction? 322 00:16:31,356 --> 00:16:33,476 Speaker 1: Because I say, I bring it up because one of 323 00:16:33,516 --> 00:16:35,676 Speaker 1: my favorite chapters in this book is you have a 324 00:16:35,756 --> 00:16:39,716 Speaker 1: chapter on talking about the educational system in Finland and 325 00:16:39,756 --> 00:16:42,516 Speaker 1: how much it differs from the American system and in 326 00:16:42,556 --> 00:16:45,396 Speaker 1: its sort of assumptions about learning and doesn't sound like 327 00:16:45,436 --> 00:16:49,716 Speaker 1: the Finns at least as is expressed in your educational system, 328 00:16:50,836 --> 00:16:55,036 Speaker 1: hold to a notion of innate ability. And you know, so, 329 00:16:56,036 --> 00:16:59,236 Speaker 1: what are we dealing with here? Is there something uniquely 330 00:16:59,236 --> 00:17:00,596 Speaker 1: American about this idea? 331 00:17:01,036 --> 00:17:05,516 Speaker 2: There may be to some extent, I think when yeah, 332 00:17:05,556 --> 00:17:08,876 Speaker 2: when I think about what we do culturally in the US, 333 00:17:08,956 --> 00:17:11,916 Speaker 2: the different from other parts of the world. There is 334 00:17:11,956 --> 00:17:16,316 Speaker 2: a tendency to make the fundamental attribution era more in 335 00:17:16,356 --> 00:17:20,076 Speaker 2: the US. You should define that, Yeah, the tendency to 336 00:17:20,116 --> 00:17:25,796 Speaker 2: attribute people's actions and station to their their innate characteristics 337 00:17:25,836 --> 00:17:29,876 Speaker 2: as opposed to their situation and affordances and opportunity and circumstances. 338 00:17:30,996 --> 00:17:34,316 Speaker 2: An idea that you thoroughly decimated in outliers, I will 339 00:17:34,356 --> 00:17:37,276 Speaker 2: point out, But we still do it a lot in 340 00:17:37,316 --> 00:17:40,836 Speaker 2: the US, right. We like we're an individualistic society. What 341 00:17:40,876 --> 00:17:42,996 Speaker 2: we like to do is we like to say, Okay, 342 00:17:43,036 --> 00:17:45,716 Speaker 2: you you are where you are because of the things 343 00:17:45,756 --> 00:17:46,836 Speaker 2: that are inside of you. 344 00:17:47,956 --> 00:17:48,596 Speaker 3: And I think you're right. 345 00:17:48,636 --> 00:17:51,356 Speaker 2: I think in Finland, I think in Estonia, I think 346 00:17:51,716 --> 00:17:53,596 Speaker 2: we could probably make a whole list of other countries, 347 00:17:54,276 --> 00:17:57,956 Speaker 2: there's a stronger sense that every child has hidden potential 348 00:17:58,516 --> 00:18:01,156 Speaker 2: and it's the job of parents and teachers and coaches 349 00:18:01,676 --> 00:18:04,556 Speaker 2: to realize it in two senses of the word, one 350 00:18:04,636 --> 00:18:07,716 Speaker 2: to recognize it and then to develop it. 351 00:18:07,716 --> 00:18:10,516 Speaker 1: It seems to be fundamentally parodoxical, and no one's properly 352 00:18:10,556 --> 00:18:13,676 Speaker 1: explained to me why it would be the case that 353 00:18:14,196 --> 00:18:16,756 Speaker 1: a culture like the United States, which is the highest 354 00:18:16,756 --> 00:18:19,956 Speaker 1: achieving you could argue it's splies achieving culture in the 355 00:18:19,956 --> 00:18:23,356 Speaker 1: world on a number of metrics, should have a notion 356 00:18:23,396 --> 00:18:26,836 Speaker 1: about achievement that is fundamentally wrong. It just doesn't make 357 00:18:26,836 --> 00:18:28,836 Speaker 1: any sense. In fact, if you said to me that 358 00:18:28,916 --> 00:18:34,196 Speaker 1: America was the one place where people recognize that hard work, 359 00:18:34,356 --> 00:18:37,916 Speaker 1: that everyone has a lot of potential, and that it's 360 00:18:38,036 --> 00:18:41,356 Speaker 1: revealed in hard work practiced over your life, and that 361 00:18:42,076 --> 00:18:43,996 Speaker 1: trying to judge someone on the basis of their performance 362 00:18:44,036 --> 00:18:47,956 Speaker 1: at twelve is a fool's Errand if someone said that 363 00:18:48,076 --> 00:18:50,316 Speaker 1: is a distinctly American view, I would have said, that 364 00:18:50,396 --> 00:18:53,596 Speaker 1: makes sense. It doesn't make any sense at all that 365 00:18:54,116 --> 00:18:56,796 Speaker 1: we should have it backwards of all cultures. 366 00:18:57,076 --> 00:18:59,596 Speaker 2: I think part of the problem is our country feels 367 00:18:59,636 --> 00:19:02,916 Speaker 2: too big to invest in everybody, and so what we 368 00:19:02,996 --> 00:19:06,036 Speaker 2: often do is we say, Okay, well, we're going to 369 00:19:06,116 --> 00:19:09,476 Speaker 2: create gifting and talented programs and we're going to build 370 00:19:09,556 --> 00:19:12,676 Speaker 2: a winner take all system so that the kids with 371 00:19:12,756 --> 00:19:14,516 Speaker 2: the true promise are going to get. 372 00:19:14,436 --> 00:19:15,316 Speaker 3: To rise to the top. 373 00:19:16,436 --> 00:19:19,916 Speaker 2: And that allows us to believe in the. 374 00:19:19,836 --> 00:19:24,196 Speaker 3: Notion of meritocracy. It allows us to feel like we've earned. 375 00:19:23,996 --> 00:19:26,516 Speaker 2: All the success that we've achieved, as opposed to partially 376 00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:27,396 Speaker 2: lucking into it. 377 00:19:27,796 --> 00:19:29,476 Speaker 3: And so I think there is a function there, right. 378 00:19:29,516 --> 00:19:30,316 Speaker 3: It allows us to. 379 00:19:30,276 --> 00:19:33,476 Speaker 2: Think that America, like when we talk about the American 380 00:19:33,556 --> 00:19:36,396 Speaker 2: dream and we say that anybody can live the American dream, 381 00:19:36,556 --> 00:19:40,116 Speaker 2: this is the land of opportunity. We are justifying our system, 382 00:19:40,436 --> 00:19:43,076 Speaker 2: and I think that serves a soothing function for a 383 00:19:43,076 --> 00:19:43,676 Speaker 2: lot of people. 384 00:19:48,956 --> 00:19:50,996 Speaker 1: Another one of my favorite chapters in this book is 385 00:19:50,996 --> 00:19:57,756 Speaker 1: about perfectionism, and it's sort of your critique of where 386 00:19:57,796 --> 00:20:02,156 Speaker 1: perfectionism leads us, what it costs us. And you start 387 00:20:02,836 --> 00:20:06,596 Speaker 1: with a really interesting discussion of your time as a 388 00:20:06,636 --> 00:20:10,676 Speaker 1: diver in high school and how you perfectionist. Can you 389 00:20:10,716 --> 00:20:14,836 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how your perfectionism manifested itself 390 00:20:14,836 --> 00:20:16,916 Speaker 1: and how you came to believe it was self defeating? 391 00:20:17,836 --> 00:20:20,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually first I didn't know I was a 392 00:20:20,516 --> 00:20:24,556 Speaker 2: perfectionist when I started diving, and then at some point 393 00:20:25,236 --> 00:20:27,996 Speaker 2: it crystallized, and I thought it was a big advantage 394 00:20:27,996 --> 00:20:31,196 Speaker 2: because in diving, I mean, you've all heard Olympic announcers 395 00:20:31,196 --> 00:20:33,956 Speaker 2: say perfect tens, and I thought, okay, in a sport 396 00:20:33,956 --> 00:20:36,876 Speaker 2: that's judged on perfection, aiming for perfection. 397 00:20:36,596 --> 00:20:37,716 Speaker 3: Has got to be the way. 398 00:20:38,876 --> 00:20:41,716 Speaker 2: And it was such a liability for me, more than 399 00:20:41,716 --> 00:20:46,436 Speaker 2: an asset. There are a whole bunch of things that 400 00:20:46,476 --> 00:20:49,996 Speaker 2: I did that were counterproductive. One was I just wasted 401 00:20:50,036 --> 00:20:52,476 Speaker 2: a lot of time trying to perfect easy dives as 402 00:20:52,476 --> 00:20:55,196 Speaker 2: opposed to learning harder ones, which limited my degree of difficulty. 403 00:20:56,236 --> 00:20:59,116 Speaker 2: I actually got an award one year for my teammates. 404 00:20:59,756 --> 00:21:02,716 Speaker 2: It was the if only a word, and there was 405 00:21:02,756 --> 00:21:05,076 Speaker 2: a little drawing of me on a paper plate with 406 00:21:05,556 --> 00:21:08,236 Speaker 2: a cartoon that said, if only I had pointed my 407 00:21:08,316 --> 00:21:10,116 Speaker 2: left pinky toe on dive, I would have gotten an 408 00:21:10,116 --> 00:21:11,356 Speaker 2: eight and a half instead of an eight. 409 00:21:12,796 --> 00:21:14,276 Speaker 3: And like, that's not what mattered. 410 00:21:14,276 --> 00:21:15,996 Speaker 2: Like I should have been stretching so I could actually 411 00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:17,956 Speaker 2: touch my toes without bending my knees. That would have 412 00:21:17,956 --> 00:21:21,596 Speaker 2: made me a better diver. I think not only did 413 00:21:21,636 --> 00:21:23,556 Speaker 2: I focus on the wrong things, I ruminated a lot, 414 00:21:23,596 --> 00:21:27,076 Speaker 2: I beat myself up a lot, and I was constantly 415 00:21:27,076 --> 00:21:30,596 Speaker 2: shaming my past mistakes as opposed to trying to sort 416 00:21:30,596 --> 00:21:34,116 Speaker 2: of educate my future self from those lessons, and that 417 00:21:34,196 --> 00:21:35,316 Speaker 2: was that was not helpful. 418 00:21:36,076 --> 00:21:36,956 Speaker 3: Probably the worst. 419 00:21:36,756 --> 00:21:40,076 Speaker 2: Thing that I did, though, was the bocking where you know, 420 00:21:40,116 --> 00:21:42,316 Speaker 2: and diving, when you're gonna take off forward, you walk 421 00:21:42,356 --> 00:21:44,596 Speaker 2: down the board and then jump to the end. Well, 422 00:21:44,716 --> 00:21:46,676 Speaker 2: if my hurdle, if my take off, if my approach 423 00:21:46,756 --> 00:21:49,196 Speaker 2: wasn't perfect, I would just stop and start over, and 424 00:21:49,276 --> 00:21:52,036 Speaker 2: stop and start over, and then there's a two bock 425 00:21:52,156 --> 00:21:53,636 Speaker 2: rule and then I have to get off the board 426 00:21:53,916 --> 00:21:56,756 Speaker 2: and then I'm not doing dives all practice, because like, 427 00:21:56,836 --> 00:21:58,476 Speaker 2: what's the point of Yeah. 428 00:21:58,276 --> 00:22:01,076 Speaker 1: If you balk, you know? It was if you stop 429 00:22:01,156 --> 00:22:05,156 Speaker 1: and start again more than twice, you have to dismount 430 00:22:05,196 --> 00:22:06,076 Speaker 1: from the well. 431 00:22:06,156 --> 00:22:08,596 Speaker 2: That was the rule that my coach, Eric Best had 432 00:22:08,596 --> 00:22:11,516 Speaker 2: to instant because otherwise I would just bock all practice. 433 00:22:13,116 --> 00:22:18,036 Speaker 1: So but what's going on inside your head? Are you enjoying? 434 00:22:18,196 --> 00:22:19,556 Speaker 1: Are you enjoying being a diver? 435 00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:20,636 Speaker 3: Yeah? I loved it. 436 00:22:21,396 --> 00:22:24,396 Speaker 2: I loved it, but I was really frustrated, feeling like 437 00:22:24,476 --> 00:22:25,396 Speaker 2: I couldn't get it right. 438 00:22:25,916 --> 00:22:27,556 Speaker 3: I couldn't get it right. I was really bad. 439 00:22:27,876 --> 00:22:30,876 Speaker 1: And then when did you start reflecting on the experience 440 00:22:30,996 --> 00:22:35,596 Speaker 1: and kind of I think this is the reason I 441 00:22:35,596 --> 00:22:38,276 Speaker 1: asked this question, is forgive me, Adam, if I could 442 00:22:38,356 --> 00:22:40,916 Speaker 1: play doctor Freud for a moment, and if you'd like 443 00:22:40,996 --> 00:22:46,196 Speaker 1: to recline. I feel there's a lot more. There's a 444 00:22:46,196 --> 00:22:48,156 Speaker 1: lot more of your books are a lot more of 445 00:22:48,196 --> 00:22:51,236 Speaker 1: a personal project than you let on, and this one 446 00:22:51,276 --> 00:22:53,236 Speaker 1: in particular, I was reading so and you have these 447 00:22:53,276 --> 00:22:55,276 Speaker 1: little moments where you start talking about diving, and I 448 00:22:55,276 --> 00:22:59,396 Speaker 1: think you know, if I was a psychoanalyst, I would say, Adam, 449 00:22:59,596 --> 00:23:03,236 Speaker 1: this book is really about you trying to make sense 450 00:23:03,276 --> 00:23:06,556 Speaker 1: of the mistakes that little Adam made and the experiences 451 00:23:06,596 --> 00:23:09,116 Speaker 1: that little Adam had. Is that is that not fair? 452 00:23:09,716 --> 00:23:12,556 Speaker 2: I mean, I wouldn't frame that in Freudian terms because 453 00:23:12,596 --> 00:23:15,636 Speaker 2: I think he set psychology back a century. Of course 454 00:23:15,676 --> 00:23:20,196 Speaker 2: you would say that, but it's like, I mean, his 455 00:23:20,316 --> 00:23:24,316 Speaker 2: approach was so unscientific, and if you disagree with him, 456 00:23:24,316 --> 00:23:25,156 Speaker 2: well you're in denial. 457 00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:27,076 Speaker 3: Like I was that helpful to anyone? 458 00:23:27,276 --> 00:23:30,236 Speaker 1: Exhibit A who's in denial? Here? 459 00:23:31,956 --> 00:23:34,876 Speaker 2: I will say there are some good meta analyses of 460 00:23:34,956 --> 00:23:38,356 Speaker 2: randomized controlled trials of psychodynamic therapy that show that it 461 00:23:38,436 --> 00:23:40,996 Speaker 2: can have efficacy for some people in some situations, but 462 00:23:41,196 --> 00:23:46,356 Speaker 2: I'm still extremely skeptical anyway, Uh, I will not. 463 00:23:46,236 --> 00:23:47,196 Speaker 3: Be paging doctor Fry. 464 00:23:48,276 --> 00:23:52,036 Speaker 1: You're in a place called Manhattan and you're dissing psychoanalysis. 465 00:23:52,276 --> 00:23:55,796 Speaker 1: What why? I don't know, Malcolm in active self, you 466 00:23:55,796 --> 00:23:58,236 Speaker 1: want people to buy your book afterwards, and this is 467 00:23:58,276 --> 00:23:59,116 Speaker 1: what you're telling them. 468 00:23:59,796 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 2: First of all, I think most people here have already 469 00:24:02,276 --> 00:24:05,796 Speaker 2: bought the book. And I also think there's a point 470 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:09,356 Speaker 2: at which you stop blaming your behavior on as of 471 00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:13,596 Speaker 2: your parents, Adam, and start taking responsibility for your adult cis. 472 00:24:13,036 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 1: I brought but I brought this up because I was 473 00:24:16,636 --> 00:24:19,676 Speaker 1: wondering whether you were doing a version of the same thing, 474 00:24:20,396 --> 00:24:21,996 Speaker 1: which was at the age of how old you know, 475 00:24:22,436 --> 00:24:25,476 Speaker 1: now forty two, at the age of forty two, still 476 00:24:25,556 --> 00:24:28,516 Speaker 1: working out the problems you had as a swimmer as 477 00:24:28,516 --> 00:24:28,996 Speaker 1: a divery. 478 00:24:29,196 --> 00:24:31,996 Speaker 2: Oh, don't ever call a diver a swimmer. Yeah no, 479 00:24:32,476 --> 00:24:35,356 Speaker 2: that's like me calling you a jogger as a runner. 480 00:24:36,596 --> 00:24:38,636 Speaker 2: I think there's a difference between trying to work out 481 00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:42,396 Speaker 2: the problems of little Adam, which is how Malcolm Freud 482 00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:47,516 Speaker 2: would approach this discussion, and trying to figure out if 483 00:24:47,556 --> 00:24:50,636 Speaker 2: there are lessons from my biggest struggles and also my 484 00:24:50,716 --> 00:24:54,476 Speaker 2: greatest moments of growth that could become teachable moments for 485 00:24:54,556 --> 00:24:58,156 Speaker 2: me and others. I'm trying to reflect on the fact 486 00:24:58,196 --> 00:25:00,716 Speaker 2: that I really was my own worst enemy for a 487 00:25:00,756 --> 00:25:03,356 Speaker 2: good part of my diving career, but then I ended 488 00:25:03,436 --> 00:25:05,836 Speaker 2: up ascending to a much greater height than I ever 489 00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:08,996 Speaker 2: thought possible. I should not have gotten where I got 490 00:25:09,156 --> 00:25:11,716 Speaker 2: as a diver. I shouldn't have been a like what 491 00:25:11,756 --> 00:25:14,276 Speaker 2: was I doing in the Junior Olympic Nationals as somebody 492 00:25:14,276 --> 00:25:16,996 Speaker 2: who literally was called Frankenstein because I didn't bend my 493 00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:19,356 Speaker 2: knees when I walked? Like something about this does not 494 00:25:19,396 --> 00:25:22,516 Speaker 2: add up. And so I think that juxtaposing those kinds 495 00:25:22,516 --> 00:25:24,636 Speaker 2: of moments with what does the social science tell us 496 00:25:25,156 --> 00:25:26,276 Speaker 2: is really powerful. 497 00:25:26,516 --> 00:25:28,196 Speaker 1: But if you had, I guess what I'm trying to 498 00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:32,716 Speaker 1: say is the work that you've done, the extraordinary work 499 00:25:32,876 --> 00:25:35,316 Speaker 1: that you've done as an adult, is in some way 500 00:25:36,156 --> 00:25:39,516 Speaker 1: we're all beneficiaries of some of these struggles you had 501 00:25:39,556 --> 00:25:43,516 Speaker 1: as a If you had been this kind of non 502 00:25:43,556 --> 00:25:47,796 Speaker 1: nerdy golden boy who was a kind of diving prodigy 503 00:25:47,836 --> 00:25:50,316 Speaker 1: and to whom things came easily, we don't get this 504 00:25:50,356 --> 00:25:53,716 Speaker 1: book definitely not Yeah. To go back to our earlier point, 505 00:25:53,756 --> 00:25:57,636 Speaker 1: this is another kind of crucial flaw in the kind 506 00:25:57,636 --> 00:26:03,276 Speaker 1: of obsession with innate ability and the way in which 507 00:26:03,316 --> 00:26:08,716 Speaker 1: we celebrate. We happen to celebrate those who achieve things 508 00:26:09,476 --> 00:26:13,076 Speaker 1: early and without a parent effort, and that is that 509 00:26:13,116 --> 00:26:16,396 Speaker 1: we're not thinking about the downstream consequences. Right, We're not 510 00:26:16,436 --> 00:26:19,556 Speaker 1: thinking that a lot of what looks like struggle at 511 00:26:19,596 --> 00:26:21,956 Speaker 1: an early age is simply kind of raw material in 512 00:26:21,996 --> 00:26:26,556 Speaker 1: preparation for some kind of future better thing. Right. Being 513 00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:29,756 Speaker 1: a struggling as a diver as a freshman is, in 514 00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:33,276 Speaker 1: the grand scheme of things, a pretty small thing, but 515 00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:36,196 Speaker 1: it's a little kernel that becomes something really interesting. When 516 00:26:36,196 --> 00:26:39,636 Speaker 1: you're forty and you're interested in writing about hidden potential, 517 00:26:40,116 --> 00:26:41,236 Speaker 1: right starts to matter. 518 00:26:41,316 --> 00:26:45,676 Speaker 2: Then I think you're onto something important here. And I 519 00:26:45,716 --> 00:26:48,676 Speaker 2: think I read a book once they called it Desirable 520 00:26:48,716 --> 00:26:53,996 Speaker 2: Difficulty by you. Yes, I think that, yeah, this is 521 00:26:53,996 --> 00:26:56,436 Speaker 2: actually something that more used to actually stressed to me 522 00:26:56,676 --> 00:27:00,316 Speaker 2: that I hadn't appreciated. So you know, Mauras from the 523 00:27:00,316 --> 00:27:04,716 Speaker 2: book is a chess grandmaster, and I think an extraordinary 524 00:27:04,756 --> 00:27:08,596 Speaker 2: coach who recognizes and brings out the hidden potential in 525 00:27:09,196 --> 00:27:12,516 Speaker 2: kids that nobody else thought had a chance. And one 526 00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:14,796 Speaker 2: of the things Maurice said is he is watched in 527 00:27:14,916 --> 00:27:18,036 Speaker 2: chess over and over again. The biggest prodigies young are 528 00:27:18,076 --> 00:27:20,396 Speaker 2: the ones who have the biggest struggles when they're older, 529 00:27:20,796 --> 00:27:23,876 Speaker 2: because it came too easily to them at first, and 530 00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:27,076 Speaker 2: they're just they're used to kind of having this natural success, 531 00:27:27,556 --> 00:27:29,836 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden they lose the game and. 532 00:27:29,796 --> 00:27:32,276 Speaker 3: They can't take it, and they haven't. 533 00:27:32,396 --> 00:27:34,516 Speaker 2: I think the fundamental problem there, if you look at 534 00:27:34,516 --> 00:27:37,156 Speaker 2: the research, is they have not built the character skills 535 00:27:37,356 --> 00:27:40,836 Speaker 2: that are necessary to face obstacles. They don't know how 536 00:27:40,876 --> 00:27:45,556 Speaker 2: to embrace discomfort, they don't know how to accept the 537 00:27:45,636 --> 00:27:48,476 Speaker 2: right imperfections and say these mistakes are actually part of 538 00:27:48,476 --> 00:27:51,316 Speaker 2: my growth. And so I think that sometimes early success 539 00:27:51,356 --> 00:27:54,356 Speaker 2: does a major disservice to our future selves. 540 00:27:55,716 --> 00:27:58,436 Speaker 1: I reminded a couple of weeks ago, I was sitting 541 00:27:58,796 --> 00:28:03,196 Speaker 1: in a coffee shop in Orlando, Florida, long story, and 542 00:28:04,156 --> 00:28:08,996 Speaker 1: emailed me about that there's two surgeons sitting next to me. 543 00:28:09,116 --> 00:28:11,396 Speaker 1: Of course I was he's dropping and one of them 544 00:28:11,796 --> 00:28:14,756 Speaker 1: had a daughter who was at Cornell Medical School, and 545 00:28:14,796 --> 00:28:18,996 Speaker 1: he was boasting about how she was she loved Cornell. 546 00:28:19,076 --> 00:28:22,316 Speaker 1: Cornell's amazing she got into Cornell. Isn't that fantastic? Blah 547 00:28:22,356 --> 00:28:24,436 Speaker 1: blah blah. And I emailed at him and I was like, 548 00:28:25,356 --> 00:28:27,756 Speaker 1: how does this guy get it completely backwards? Why doesn't 549 00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:30,476 Speaker 1: he boast about his daughter that my daughter's having an 550 00:28:30,516 --> 00:28:34,076 Speaker 1: amazing time in medical school. Isn't it amazing that she's 551 00:28:34,116 --> 00:28:36,436 Speaker 1: the kind of person who can go into an institution 552 00:28:37,196 --> 00:28:41,196 Speaker 1: and find what's meaningful to her and flourish. And you know, 553 00:28:41,716 --> 00:28:45,196 Speaker 1: he was focused on Cornell, and he wasn't interested in 554 00:28:45,236 --> 00:28:48,636 Speaker 1: the character traits his own daughter had that allowed her 555 00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:51,876 Speaker 1: to flourish and be happy and find meaningful And I 556 00:28:51,956 --> 00:28:55,276 Speaker 1: was just like, there's something about parents. What you're describing 557 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:59,076 Speaker 1: is why are parents so bad at kind of decoding 558 00:28:59,316 --> 00:29:02,356 Speaker 1: the psychology of their own children? It just strikes me 559 00:29:02,396 --> 00:29:06,276 Speaker 1: as like, well, why are we making these mistakes? Then? 560 00:29:06,316 --> 00:29:08,956 Speaker 1: Why on earth are we so in love with prodigies? 561 00:29:09,316 --> 00:29:12,836 Speaker 1: Like I don't again, I mean, I'm just baffled by this. 562 00:29:13,636 --> 00:29:16,196 Speaker 2: I mean, when psychologists study this, they talk about parental 563 00:29:16,316 --> 00:29:20,876 Speaker 2: overinvolvement and over identification and the notion that as a parent, 564 00:29:21,116 --> 00:29:22,996 Speaker 2: like we were touching on this earlier, you start to 565 00:29:22,996 --> 00:29:27,196 Speaker 2: define your own success by your children's accomplishments. And I 566 00:29:27,276 --> 00:29:29,076 Speaker 2: just want to sit parents now. I see this all 567 00:29:29,116 --> 00:29:31,916 Speaker 2: the time with our students at PEN. I want to 568 00:29:31,916 --> 00:29:34,756 Speaker 2: sit these parents down and say, like, what your children 569 00:29:34,796 --> 00:29:38,556 Speaker 2: achieve is not a reflection of your greatness as a parent. 570 00:29:39,556 --> 00:29:42,716 Speaker 2: You should be much more concerned with who your kids 571 00:29:42,876 --> 00:29:46,596 Speaker 2: become and how they treat other people. Being a great 572 00:29:46,636 --> 00:29:51,236 Speaker 2: parent is not about how much precedure kids attain in 573 00:29:51,316 --> 00:29:53,876 Speaker 2: their school choices or in their jobs. 574 00:29:53,956 --> 00:29:56,676 Speaker 3: It's not about career success. It's about character. 575 00:29:57,956 --> 00:29:59,756 Speaker 2: I think you might have found someone who had not 576 00:29:59,916 --> 00:30:01,876 Speaker 2: yet internalized that message you. 577 00:30:02,436 --> 00:30:04,996 Speaker 1: Say on the subject of perfectionism, I want you to 578 00:30:04,996 --> 00:30:09,396 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about what in gener what 579 00:30:09,916 --> 00:30:17,036 Speaker 1: precisely is damaging about and having a perfectionistic attitude, and 580 00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:19,756 Speaker 1: what do you feel we should have instead. 581 00:30:20,356 --> 00:30:23,476 Speaker 2: Okay, so if you look at the current work, which 582 00:30:23,516 --> 00:30:25,796 Speaker 2: I think is the most comprehensive and rigorous to date, 583 00:30:26,676 --> 00:30:30,036 Speaker 2: what we see goes wrong with perfectionists is one, they 584 00:30:30,076 --> 00:30:31,996 Speaker 2: lose the forest in the trees, so they tend to 585 00:30:31,996 --> 00:30:35,916 Speaker 2: focus on small details and overlook the big picture. Two, 586 00:30:36,276 --> 00:30:38,796 Speaker 2: they do a lot of the rumination and sort of 587 00:30:39,156 --> 00:30:42,596 Speaker 2: self shaming as opposed to self compassion that's necessary for 588 00:30:42,716 --> 00:30:47,516 Speaker 2: learning from your mistakes. And three, they actually tend not 589 00:30:47,636 --> 00:30:50,796 Speaker 2: to stretch themselves much. They want to focus on the 590 00:30:50,796 --> 00:30:53,556 Speaker 2: things they know they can master, as opposed to venturing 591 00:30:53,596 --> 00:30:57,156 Speaker 2: into uncharted territory. And by avoiding failure, they actually avoid 592 00:30:57,236 --> 00:31:01,556 Speaker 2: risk taking, and they avoid learning and challenging themselves, and 593 00:31:01,596 --> 00:31:04,156 Speaker 2: that means they end up with a static or even 594 00:31:04,316 --> 00:31:07,556 Speaker 2: ever narrowing comfort zone as opposed to an expanding domain 595 00:31:07,636 --> 00:31:08,636 Speaker 2: of expertise. 596 00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:10,836 Speaker 1: You make the comment of the book that you think 597 00:31:10,876 --> 00:31:14,756 Speaker 1: perfectionism of the sort you've just defined is on the rise. 598 00:31:16,316 --> 00:31:17,876 Speaker 1: Why would it be on the rise? 599 00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:21,636 Speaker 2: So empirically perfectionism has risen in the US. 600 00:31:21,316 --> 00:31:24,436 Speaker 3: In the UK, and the great nation of Canada. I 601 00:31:24,476 --> 00:31:25,476 Speaker 3: think if you look. 602 00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:27,756 Speaker 2: At why it's increasing, what everybody does is they say 603 00:31:27,756 --> 00:31:28,596 Speaker 2: social media. 604 00:31:28,876 --> 00:31:30,076 Speaker 3: It's got to be social media. 605 00:31:30,116 --> 00:31:33,116 Speaker 2: Everybody has a perfect image of themselves on Instagram, and 606 00:31:33,476 --> 00:31:36,316 Speaker 2: that's leading our kids to have unrealistic expectations. 607 00:31:37,156 --> 00:31:39,076 Speaker 3: That may be part of the story. But guess what. 608 00:31:39,636 --> 00:31:44,756 Speaker 2: Perfectionism started rising a generation before social media existed. It 609 00:31:44,876 --> 00:31:48,716 Speaker 2: started rising when Mark Zuckerberg was in diapers. So there's 610 00:31:48,756 --> 00:31:51,076 Speaker 2: got to be something else going on. And my read 611 00:31:51,116 --> 00:31:53,116 Speaker 2: of The evidence is there are two things that seem 612 00:31:53,156 --> 00:31:55,236 Speaker 2: to be contributing to it, and both of them are 613 00:31:55,236 --> 00:32:01,196 Speaker 2: parental behaviors. One of them is rising parental expectations for kids, 614 00:32:02,556 --> 00:32:07,916 Speaker 2: holding children to increasingly impossible standards, and two is increasingly 615 00:32:07,956 --> 00:32:10,996 Speaker 2: harsh criticism of kids who don't meet those standards. 616 00:32:12,476 --> 00:32:16,076 Speaker 1: Did you so, why would Okay, let's let's take one 617 00:32:16,116 --> 00:32:19,396 Speaker 1: step further. Why would parents? I mean, it seems like 618 00:32:19,436 --> 00:32:22,276 Speaker 1: an obvious question, but I don't know that I know 619 00:32:22,796 --> 00:32:28,196 Speaker 1: the kind of good answer. Why would parents? Expectations have risen, 620 00:32:28,236 --> 00:32:31,716 Speaker 1: So we're talking about the nineties, eighties, nineties, what's driving 621 00:32:31,836 --> 00:32:34,396 Speaker 1: parent rental expectations in that era? 622 00:32:34,676 --> 00:32:35,796 Speaker 3: So we don't we don't know. 623 00:32:36,116 --> 00:32:39,756 Speaker 2: I think the probably the consensus hunch right now is 624 00:32:39,796 --> 00:32:43,556 Speaker 2: that the world has gotten more competitive. So, you know, 625 00:32:43,636 --> 00:32:47,036 Speaker 2: however hard it was to get into college in the eighties, 626 00:32:47,036 --> 00:32:48,596 Speaker 2: it got a little bit harder in the nineties, and 627 00:32:48,636 --> 00:32:51,796 Speaker 2: it got increasingly difficult over time. And so in a 628 00:32:51,796 --> 00:32:55,036 Speaker 2: world that feels more and more zero sum, I think 629 00:32:55,036 --> 00:32:57,196 Speaker 2: we've we've probably seen a lot of talk about how 630 00:32:57,876 --> 00:33:01,956 Speaker 2: the current generation of kids is the first in America 631 00:33:01,996 --> 00:33:05,396 Speaker 2: that might not sort of outdo their parents or have 632 00:33:05,436 --> 00:33:07,876 Speaker 2: a better standard of living than their parents. And so 633 00:33:07,956 --> 00:33:09,756 Speaker 2: when you see that world, and you see a world 634 00:33:09,796 --> 00:33:12,316 Speaker 2: of scarcity, you think, I've got to do whatever it 635 00:33:12,356 --> 00:33:15,756 Speaker 2: takes to help my kids succeed, forgetting that the very 636 00:33:15,796 --> 00:33:17,796 Speaker 2: things you're doing to try to help your kids succeed 637 00:33:18,156 --> 00:33:21,356 Speaker 2: are just turning them into achievement robots who one day 638 00:33:21,436 --> 00:33:23,276 Speaker 2: realize like, this is no way to live a life 639 00:33:23,356 --> 00:33:23,876 Speaker 2: and burn out. 640 00:33:24,276 --> 00:33:27,116 Speaker 1: How wire you? How did your parents? Would you think 641 00:33:27,156 --> 00:33:28,596 Speaker 1: your parents were guilty of that? 642 00:33:28,916 --> 00:33:31,356 Speaker 2: My mom used to tell me, Adam, no matter what 643 00:33:31,476 --> 00:33:34,476 Speaker 2: grade you get, as long as you do your best, 644 00:33:34,756 --> 00:33:37,996 Speaker 2: I'll be proud of you. And then she would add, 645 00:33:38,876 --> 00:33:40,636 Speaker 2: but if you didn't get an A, I'll know you 646 00:33:40,676 --> 00:33:46,196 Speaker 2: didn't do your best. She said it with a smile. 647 00:33:46,396 --> 00:33:49,316 Speaker 2: I think she was half kidding, but I took it seriously. 648 00:33:49,556 --> 00:33:49,796 Speaker 3: Yeah. 649 00:33:50,156 --> 00:33:51,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, I guess there's a little I didn't. 650 00:33:51,836 --> 00:33:53,996 Speaker 2: I didn't get the harsh criticism though, but I definitely 651 00:33:53,996 --> 00:33:55,516 Speaker 2: felt like expectations were high. 652 00:33:55,636 --> 00:33:59,716 Speaker 1: Yeah. The last chapter of your book, could you talk 653 00:33:59,756 --> 00:34:03,196 Speaker 1: a little bit about interviews and admissions and college admissions 654 00:34:03,236 --> 00:34:05,476 Speaker 1: and things? And I had some big and some small 655 00:34:05,556 --> 00:34:08,756 Speaker 1: questions about that. You have a very interesting part where 656 00:34:08,796 --> 00:34:11,636 Speaker 1: you talk about what the evidence social science evidence tells 657 00:34:11,716 --> 00:34:16,156 Speaker 1: us about the success and or failure of affirmative action programs. 658 00:34:16,476 --> 00:34:19,836 Speaker 1: Can you summarize what social science tells us about that? 659 00:34:20,556 --> 00:34:22,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, I went in to read the evidence to ask 660 00:34:23,316 --> 00:34:25,076 Speaker 2: what is the impact of these programs. A lot of 661 00:34:25,116 --> 00:34:27,876 Speaker 2: people have strong ideological positions on them. I feel like 662 00:34:27,916 --> 00:34:29,876 Speaker 2: my job as a social scientist is to look at 663 00:34:29,876 --> 00:34:33,036 Speaker 2: the most careful research that's been done and try to 664 00:34:33,116 --> 00:34:35,756 Speaker 2: hint the picture of what do we know? And I 665 00:34:35,796 --> 00:34:38,996 Speaker 2: think what the evidence suggests is that affirmative action programs 666 00:34:39,036 --> 00:34:42,236 Speaker 2: are a double edged sword, even for the very people 667 00:34:42,236 --> 00:34:46,756 Speaker 2: they're trying to help. So on the one hand, they 668 00:34:47,076 --> 00:34:50,436 Speaker 2: do manage to open doors for people who have historically 669 00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:55,196 Speaker 2: been denied opportunity by virtue of group membership. On the 670 00:34:55,236 --> 00:34:58,356 Speaker 2: other hand, if you enter a university or a workplace 671 00:34:58,396 --> 00:35:01,276 Speaker 2: that is known to have affirmative action, you perform worse 672 00:35:01,996 --> 00:35:04,556 Speaker 2: if you are a beneficiary of that program than if 673 00:35:04,556 --> 00:35:07,876 Speaker 2: the program didn't exist. So we see this with women, 674 00:35:07,956 --> 00:35:10,916 Speaker 2: we see it with racial minority. What happens is, and 675 00:35:10,956 --> 00:35:14,476 Speaker 2: I don't think this will shock anyone. People start to 676 00:35:14,516 --> 00:35:16,476 Speaker 2: doubt whether they really deserve that spot. 677 00:35:17,596 --> 00:35:21,156 Speaker 3: Am I qualified? Do I belong here. It's a massive 678 00:35:21,236 --> 00:35:24,436 Speaker 3: version of imposter syndrome, and not the healthy kind. And 679 00:35:24,476 --> 00:35:26,876 Speaker 3: then other people will question it too. 680 00:35:27,556 --> 00:35:29,676 Speaker 2: They're like, well, I don't think you really got in 681 00:35:29,716 --> 00:35:34,036 Speaker 2: on your own merit, and that self doubt and constantly 682 00:35:34,116 --> 00:35:35,916 Speaker 2: being doubted by others, that takes a toll. 683 00:35:37,156 --> 00:35:38,316 Speaker 3: It's exhausting to deal with. 684 00:35:39,076 --> 00:35:43,756 Speaker 2: It's distracting to constantly question your capabilities day in, day out. 685 00:35:44,596 --> 00:35:46,916 Speaker 2: And so you know, I came away from this evidence 686 00:35:47,516 --> 00:35:48,996 Speaker 2: thinking I don't. 687 00:35:49,276 --> 00:35:51,316 Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know where I stand. 688 00:35:51,396 --> 00:35:52,996 Speaker 2: I think that we're sort of damned if we do, 689 00:35:53,196 --> 00:35:56,996 Speaker 2: and we're damned if we don't. But I do think 690 00:35:57,036 --> 00:36:00,716 Speaker 2: there's an alternative approach that might be helpful to think about. 691 00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:06,636 Speaker 1: What two questions about that one is, why isn't that 692 00:36:06,676 --> 00:36:09,836 Speaker 1: same logic hold for the white and if his sharies 693 00:36:09,836 --> 00:36:13,116 Speaker 1: of affirmative action. If I'm a legacy kid gets into 694 00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:16,156 Speaker 1: Harvard because daddy went to Harvard, why aren't I walking 695 00:36:16,236 --> 00:36:19,276 Speaker 1: around with a big burden of imposter syndrome? I want 696 00:36:19,276 --> 00:36:23,196 Speaker 1: to hear because daddy gave seventeen million dollars to Does 697 00:36:23,236 --> 00:36:23,796 Speaker 1: it not work? 698 00:36:24,156 --> 00:36:25,076 Speaker 3: Do it? White people? 699 00:36:25,116 --> 00:36:25,436 Speaker 1: Exempt? 700 00:36:25,556 --> 00:36:27,876 Speaker 2: Can we just pause to acknowledge the fact you just 701 00:36:27,916 --> 00:36:30,596 Speaker 2: called legacy admission affirmative action for white people. 702 00:36:30,636 --> 00:36:31,316 Speaker 1: That's what it is. 703 00:36:31,876 --> 00:36:33,436 Speaker 3: I think that's an accurate characterization. 704 00:36:34,396 --> 00:36:37,396 Speaker 2: I think that not only should legacy admission be banned, 705 00:36:37,876 --> 00:36:40,036 Speaker 2: I think that if there used to be used by 706 00:36:40,036 --> 00:36:42,676 Speaker 2: a lot of Ivy League schools as a tiebreaker, and 707 00:36:42,716 --> 00:36:45,116 Speaker 2: I think it should be a reverse tiebreaker. If you're 708 00:36:45,116 --> 00:36:47,916 Speaker 2: on equal footing with somebody whose parents didn't go to 709 00:36:47,996 --> 00:36:50,156 Speaker 2: an elite institution, then. 710 00:36:50,196 --> 00:36:53,076 Speaker 3: You already had an advantage, so the other person should 711 00:36:53,076 --> 00:36:53,276 Speaker 3: get in. 712 00:36:53,636 --> 00:36:53,996 Speaker 1: Yeah. 713 00:36:54,036 --> 00:36:55,476 Speaker 2: I think, first of all, a lot of people don't 714 00:36:55,516 --> 00:36:57,556 Speaker 2: know who the legacies are. I think also there's not 715 00:36:57,596 --> 00:36:59,956 Speaker 2: the same stigma. Historically, there hasn't been the same stigma 716 00:36:59,996 --> 00:37:03,236 Speaker 2: associated with legacy admission, so affirmative action is seen as 717 00:37:03,276 --> 00:37:07,556 Speaker 2: lowering standards. Yeah, and in most cases it's not right. 718 00:37:07,596 --> 00:37:11,436 Speaker 2: It's just saying we're gonna look at people who all 719 00:37:11,476 --> 00:37:14,876 Speaker 2: meet the qualifications and requirements, and then we're going to 720 00:37:14,956 --> 00:37:18,396 Speaker 2: make sure that those whose groups have been historically disadvantaged. 721 00:37:17,796 --> 00:37:18,396 Speaker 3: Get a shot. 722 00:37:19,236 --> 00:37:22,756 Speaker 2: But I think in the case of you know, of legacy, 723 00:37:23,156 --> 00:37:25,396 Speaker 2: there hasn't been that stigma. It's been assumed, oh, you 724 00:37:25,436 --> 00:37:27,676 Speaker 2: come from a genius family, you belong here. 725 00:37:27,956 --> 00:37:32,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the problem is really it's not necessarily The 726 00:37:32,116 --> 00:37:36,276 Speaker 1: problem is inherent in the notion of, in this case, 727 00:37:36,316 --> 00:37:39,996 Speaker 1: treating a group of disadvantaged students differently. It's the narrative 728 00:37:40,036 --> 00:37:43,236 Speaker 1: we tell around the policy that we don't have the 729 00:37:43,276 --> 00:37:47,196 Speaker 1: same kind of We have a disparaging narrative around racial 730 00:37:47,196 --> 00:37:50,956 Speaker 1: affirmative action, but not a disparaging narrative around rich people 731 00:37:50,996 --> 00:37:51,716 Speaker 1: affirmative action. 732 00:37:52,396 --> 00:37:55,196 Speaker 2: Look, we had a Supreme Court ruling that happened as 733 00:37:55,236 --> 00:37:59,396 Speaker 2: the book went to press, and I think actually one 734 00:37:59,476 --> 00:38:02,356 Speaker 2: of the ideas that I flowed in this book is 735 00:38:03,596 --> 00:38:06,356 Speaker 2: maybe an option now that we ought to take seriously, 736 00:38:06,916 --> 00:38:10,156 Speaker 2: which is, maybe we should stop defining people by their 737 00:38:10,156 --> 00:38:10,876 Speaker 2: great membership. 738 00:38:12,196 --> 00:38:14,036 Speaker 3: Maybe instead of assuming. 739 00:38:13,716 --> 00:38:17,956 Speaker 2: That just because people came from a particular background that 740 00:38:18,036 --> 00:38:20,596 Speaker 2: they had the same degree of difficulty in the same adversity, 741 00:38:20,756 --> 00:38:23,236 Speaker 2: we should actually get to know the individual students and 742 00:38:23,356 --> 00:38:26,316 Speaker 2: find out the obstacles they faced, and then adjust our 743 00:38:26,356 --> 00:38:29,716 Speaker 2: expectations of them according to how much poverty did they 744 00:38:29,716 --> 00:38:33,916 Speaker 2: individually face, according to did they did they run into 745 00:38:33,916 --> 00:38:37,276 Speaker 2: major challenges? And I think that that seems like a 746 00:38:37,396 --> 00:38:39,836 Speaker 2: much more fair way to give people who have been 747 00:38:39,876 --> 00:38:41,076 Speaker 2: disadvantaged or real shot. 748 00:38:41,236 --> 00:38:44,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, wait, I want to it's a very I mean, 749 00:38:44,236 --> 00:38:47,436 Speaker 1: there's much to be said for that idea, and that's 750 00:38:47,476 --> 00:38:49,396 Speaker 1: a longer conversation, but I want ask We're running out 751 00:38:49,396 --> 00:38:50,756 Speaker 1: of time, but I want have one last thing I 752 00:38:50,756 --> 00:38:54,036 Speaker 1: want to say. So this is I'm now I'm asking 753 00:38:54,036 --> 00:38:55,876 Speaker 1: you to give me some advice because I'm working on 754 00:38:56,356 --> 00:38:59,836 Speaker 1: book right now, and this is very I deal with 755 00:38:59,876 --> 00:39:01,836 Speaker 1: this very question we're talking about in this book. 756 00:39:01,956 --> 00:39:05,276 Speaker 3: Are we talking about the revision of the tipping points? 757 00:39:05,316 --> 00:39:07,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, a different book, the revision of the tipping. 758 00:39:07,276 --> 00:39:09,316 Speaker 3: Were allowed to say that publicly that you're reading the tip. 759 00:39:09,196 --> 00:39:13,156 Speaker 1: I'm revising the tipping point. And so I was thinking 760 00:39:13,196 --> 00:39:16,916 Speaker 1: of posing the following question. Given what you're saying, what 761 00:39:16,956 --> 00:39:23,516 Speaker 1: advice would you give to a bright, ambitious African American 762 00:39:23,556 --> 00:39:27,476 Speaker 1: student who's interested in stan wants to be a doctor 763 00:39:27,596 --> 00:39:36,276 Speaker 1: or engineer or scientist some kind, who has two admissions offers, 764 00:39:36,796 --> 00:39:40,076 Speaker 1: one from an Ivy League school and one from an HBCU. 765 00:39:40,916 --> 00:39:43,316 Speaker 1: So one where he goes or she goes with the 766 00:39:43,316 --> 00:39:46,036 Speaker 1: stigma of a firmative action on one where she goes 767 00:39:46,676 --> 00:39:50,356 Speaker 1: without the stigma, what would you tell that student. 768 00:39:51,596 --> 00:39:54,316 Speaker 3: If that's a fascinating question. I'm not sure I'm qualified 769 00:39:54,356 --> 00:39:57,596 Speaker 3: to advise on it is my first reaction. My second 770 00:39:57,636 --> 00:39:59,476 Speaker 3: is a book called Hidden Potential. 771 00:40:01,236 --> 00:40:04,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm trying to look at what works for 772 00:40:04,676 --> 00:40:07,956 Speaker 2: most of the people most of the time, not necessarily 773 00:40:07,996 --> 00:40:10,716 Speaker 2: assume that I know the path that's going to be 774 00:40:10,836 --> 00:40:14,236 Speaker 2: most effective for a complete stranger. I'd want to see. 775 00:40:14,276 --> 00:40:16,916 Speaker 2: I'd want to see much better data about what are 776 00:40:16,916 --> 00:40:19,956 Speaker 2: the life trajectories of you know of students with similar 777 00:40:19,996 --> 00:40:22,956 Speaker 2: profiles who both have the same set of opportunities and 778 00:40:22,996 --> 00:40:26,076 Speaker 2: then end up for a variety of reasons. 779 00:40:25,716 --> 00:40:27,116 Speaker 3: And you know in one or the other. 780 00:40:28,236 --> 00:40:29,836 Speaker 2: I guess the first thing I would want to do, though, 781 00:40:29,876 --> 00:40:32,316 Speaker 2: is I'd want to know what are your goals? 782 00:40:32,876 --> 00:40:32,956 Speaker 3: Like? 783 00:40:33,116 --> 00:40:37,236 Speaker 2: Are you trying to maximize your status or objective career success? 784 00:40:37,756 --> 00:40:41,276 Speaker 2: Are you trying to you know, to to lead a 785 00:40:41,316 --> 00:40:44,476 Speaker 2: life you can be proud of. Are you pursuing happiness 786 00:40:44,516 --> 00:40:46,996 Speaker 2: or meaning? I think there are lots of different outcomes, 787 00:40:46,996 --> 00:40:50,196 Speaker 2: and I think the big mistake that I see I've 788 00:40:50,356 --> 00:40:52,156 Speaker 2: I've had a lot of students come by office hours 789 00:40:52,156 --> 00:40:55,276 Speaker 2: with these kinds of dilemmas over the years, often their 790 00:40:55,316 --> 00:40:57,756 Speaker 2: grad school dilemmas or their job dilemmas, but sometimes it's 791 00:40:57,796 --> 00:41:00,916 Speaker 2: high schooler is trying to choose a college, And the 792 00:41:01,276 --> 00:41:03,996 Speaker 2: main advice that I find myself giving them is is 793 00:41:04,036 --> 00:41:07,436 Speaker 2: to say, you don't want to just define your your 794 00:41:07,436 --> 00:41:10,716 Speaker 2: success by achieving your goals. You should think about success 795 00:41:10,796 --> 00:41:15,476 Speaker 2: is living your values. If you have a career target 796 00:41:15,516 --> 00:41:18,996 Speaker 2: that you hit, but it requires you to compromise your principles, 797 00:41:19,756 --> 00:41:23,036 Speaker 2: that's not success, that's failure, and it's the worst kind 798 00:41:23,036 --> 00:41:26,196 Speaker 2: of failure because you've abandoned what matters. 799 00:41:25,836 --> 00:41:28,876 Speaker 3: Most to you. So why don't we talk about what 800 00:41:28,876 --> 00:41:33,316 Speaker 3: your values are? Is one of your core principles. 801 00:41:33,356 --> 00:41:36,876 Speaker 2: To break a bunch of excuse me to break glass ceilings? 802 00:41:37,236 --> 00:41:39,956 Speaker 2: Do you want to prove to people that other people 803 00:41:40,516 --> 00:41:44,436 Speaker 2: can follow in your footsteps? Karen Nelton is here. Karen 804 00:41:44,596 --> 00:41:47,636 Speaker 2: did some brilliant work on being a trailblazer? Is one 805 00:41:47,636 --> 00:41:50,156 Speaker 2: of your core priorities in life? To open a door 806 00:41:50,156 --> 00:41:53,676 Speaker 2: and clear path for other people? If so, you can ask, 807 00:41:53,756 --> 00:41:55,356 Speaker 2: do I want to do this by starting out in 808 00:41:55,396 --> 00:41:58,676 Speaker 2: an IVY League school or do I want to go 809 00:41:58,716 --> 00:42:02,316 Speaker 2: to an environment where I might be more supported and 810 00:42:02,996 --> 00:42:04,556 Speaker 2: maybe it's easier to blaze a trail later? 811 00:42:04,596 --> 00:42:06,156 Speaker 3: I don't know. I can't predict the future. 812 00:42:07,316 --> 00:42:09,356 Speaker 2: That's the kind of conversation I'd want to have, And 813 00:42:09,436 --> 00:42:11,836 Speaker 2: it wouldn't end with advice. It would it would end 814 00:42:11,876 --> 00:42:15,036 Speaker 2: with me asking what have you learned through this conversation 815 00:42:15,076 --> 00:42:17,996 Speaker 2: about your values and which path do you think is 816 00:42:18,036 --> 00:42:20,236 Speaker 2: going to help you avoid straying from them? 817 00:42:20,636 --> 00:42:23,876 Speaker 1: Adam. But it's a beautiful answer to the question. You 818 00:42:23,916 --> 00:42:26,036 Speaker 1: started by saying you didn't think you could answer the question. 819 00:42:26,076 --> 00:42:27,636 Speaker 1: Then you gave me a beautiful answer to the question. 820 00:42:27,636 --> 00:42:29,396 Speaker 3: That's because I didn't answer the question. No, no, no. 821 00:42:29,796 --> 00:42:32,796 Speaker 1: But it goes to and this is actually, I think 822 00:42:32,836 --> 00:42:36,356 Speaker 1: a lovely moment to kind of sum up we are 823 00:42:36,596 --> 00:42:39,236 Speaker 1: if when I read this book. When I read this book, 824 00:42:40,116 --> 00:42:43,316 Speaker 1: the first and overwhelming thought I had was, we really 825 00:42:43,396 --> 00:42:46,836 Speaker 1: are at we really are asking the wrong questions about 826 00:42:47,516 --> 00:42:51,516 Speaker 1: something like potential. We're just like our premises are all wrong, right, 827 00:42:51,556 --> 00:42:55,116 Speaker 1: That's what you're getting at here, right In one one 828 00:42:55,236 --> 00:42:57,556 Speaker 1: chapter after another, you're just saying, wait a minute, we're 829 00:42:57,556 --> 00:43:01,556 Speaker 1: starting with this perspective, and it's just like we're why 830 00:43:01,756 --> 00:43:03,836 Speaker 1: what do we you know? It's that that kind of 831 00:43:04,196 --> 00:43:09,316 Speaker 1: need to go back to to fundamentals and react ask 832 00:43:09,436 --> 00:43:12,996 Speaker 1: some really basic questions, is what this what is so? 833 00:43:13,116 --> 00:43:14,356 Speaker 1: What is really wonderful. 834 00:43:13,996 --> 00:43:14,636 Speaker 3: About this book? 835 00:43:15,756 --> 00:43:18,476 Speaker 1: And please go and buy Adam this book. 836 00:43:19,316 --> 00:43:19,996 Speaker 3: Thank you all. 837 00:43:25,716 --> 00:43:29,076 Speaker 1: This bonus episode of Revisionist History was produced by Nina 838 00:43:29,116 --> 00:43:30,676 Speaker 1: Lawrence and Jacob Smith. 839 00:43:30,996 --> 00:43:35,716 Speaker 2: It was mastered by Ben Cheno. Special thanks to Daniella Belleazo, 840 00:43:36,036 --> 00:43:38,676 Speaker 2: Paul Durban, and Constanza Gallardo.