Speaker 1: Before we start, I want to let you know that
Speaker 1: this episode contains descriptions of alleged sexual abuse.
Speaker 2: In the beginning was the word, and the word was
Speaker 2: with God, and in silence. The Word of God is pronounced.
Speaker 1: Elli Anastasia Damidova was a noun with the Missionaries of
Speaker 1: Charity until twenty fourteen. He now uses he him pronounce
Speaker 1: and mostly goes by the name Eli, but he asked
Speaker 1: that we refer to him as Eli Anastasia. Anastasia is
Speaker 1: the name he used when he was a sister in
Speaker 1: the MCS, So that's what we'll do. Ellie Anastasia always
Speaker 1: loved silence. Praying in silence brought him closer to God.
Speaker 1: He's fond of a quote from Mother Teresa. In the
Speaker 1: silence God speaks.
Speaker 2: It is not the empty silence, silence filled with the presence,
Speaker 2: presence something which is greater than human being done, universe
Speaker 2: than anything else, the presence of something which is untouchable.
Speaker 1: But now silence is painful. Since he left the Missionaries
Speaker 1: of Charity in twenty fourteen, he avoids it. He leaves
Speaker 1: a television on when he's at home, especially at.
Speaker 3: Night, to make some kind of noise.
Speaker 1: Why do you think silence is.
Speaker 3: Hard because it comes back. The murmur is back.
Speaker 2: Maybe was probably night is connected to the time when
Speaker 2: everything was happening. This anxiety again comes and the memories
Speaker 2: comes back. Never Never, I can sleep in silence.
Speaker 1: From Rococo Punch and iHeart Radio. This is the Turning
Speaker 1: I America Lance Part seven Silence. All right, I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna press record on my end. Let's see, so your
Speaker 1: headphones are plugged in, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: When we video chat, Elli Anastasia smiles a lot and
Speaker 1: this earnest almost shy way testing testing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what better.
Speaker 1: Ellie Anastasia is thirty three years old. He's originally from Russia.
Speaker 1: There's the sweetness that radiates from him when he talks.
Speaker 1: He always wears a cap on his head with all
Speaker 1: his hair tucked into it. Today, Ellie Anastasia calls himself
Speaker 1: a human rights defender. He advocates for the LGBTQ community
Speaker 1: and abuse victims. Back in twenty fourteen, he was twenty
Speaker 1: six years old. He was a pastulent in the Missionaries
Speaker 1: of Charity. He was stationed in West Bengal, India and
Speaker 1: a city called Chinsura. It's a small city by Indian
Speaker 1: standards about three hundred thousand people. Even though they were
Speaker 1: in a city, ali Anastasia says, the empty house felt isolated,
Speaker 1: like they were living off the map. There weren't many
Speaker 1: Christians in the area, and without cars, they had to
Speaker 1: walk two hours to get to a church for Mass
Speaker 1: on Sunday.
Speaker 2: No television nor radio, no news in general in the city.
Speaker 2: We never knew what is happening. It's very hot. Sometimes
Speaker 2: it is horrible raining, a lot of monkeys which are
Speaker 2: destroying everything around you.
Speaker 1: Despite the isolation and the monkeys that tore up the
Speaker 1: MC's garden, ali Anastasia loved being there.
Speaker 2: I was so happy that my aim was just I
Speaker 2: want to serve God. I love God. I just want
Speaker 2: to live a proper life and to pray and to
Speaker 2: love the poor and so on.
Speaker 1: He asked his fellow sisters how to say words in
Speaker 1: Bengali so he could talk to the people who lived there.
Speaker 2: Please teach me how to tell him God loves you.
Speaker 2: I have to tell people about love. I was just
Speaker 2: a happy person.
Speaker 1: He remembers. The first time he met his mistress, the
Speaker 1: nun in charge of his spiritual formation and day to
Speaker 1: day life. The mistress was also the superior of the house.
Speaker 1: Usually those positions are separate, so it was like the
Speaker 1: mistress was both Eli Anastasia's boss and his boss's boss.
Speaker 2: Something can He was just frightening me. Maybe it was
Speaker 2: just psychological because my vocations dependent on their his person
Speaker 2: or I don't know.
Speaker 1: But Eli Anastasia told me. After he'd been there a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, the mistress, who were not naming, started
Speaker 1: showing him special attention. She ate meals with him, just
Speaker 1: the two of them. She talked about mutual acquaintances, She
Speaker 1: empathized with challenges Eli Anastasia had faced in the past.
Speaker 1: In one conversation, his mistress said she'd received a message
Speaker 1: from the Virgin Mary that Mary told her to become
Speaker 1: Eli Anastasia's spiritual mother. His personal mentor and guide. Ellie
Speaker 1: Anastasia showed us a note he says he received from
Speaker 1: his mistress. It says, my dear little spiritual child, thank
Speaker 1: you for accepting me as your spiritual mum, and then
Speaker 1: mourns this note is only for you. All of this
Speaker 1: seemed strange given MC rules against close friendship and special attention,
Speaker 1: but Ellie Anastasia didn't question it. It wasn't his place
Speaker 1: to question. Then one evening they were in the sacristy,
Speaker 1: a room off the chapel. They were alone. Ellie Anastasia's
Speaker 1: mistress asked him to sit next to her on a stool.
Speaker 1: Then the mistress stood up and pulled Ellie Anastasia's head
Speaker 1: to her belly. She held it there. She uttered these
Speaker 1: phrases like she was soothing him.
Speaker 2: Mother Mary said, you need so much attention, you need
Speaker 2: special attention and care. And like I'm sitting the time,
Speaker 2: I remember what is going on. Why she's doing like that?
Speaker 2: Because it was lasting half an hour, forty minutes that
Speaker 2: that was so long. How to react? She's superior, she's mistress.
Speaker 2: What she's doing, I don't understand. I'm just praying this God,
Speaker 2: let it stop.
Speaker 3: What is going on?
Speaker 1: Around this time, Eli Anastasia says his mistress began sexualizing
Speaker 1: their day to day interactions. At the breakfast table, she
Speaker 1: read aloud letters from Mother Teresa that mentioned issues like masturbation.
Speaker 1: Sometimes in class, she read from a controversial spiritual text
Speaker 1: that hinted an incestuous relationship between Jesus and his mother Mary.
Speaker 1: Ellie Anastasia thought, this is bizarre, but he kept to
Speaker 1: his duties.
Speaker 3: But everything turned worse.
Speaker 2: I don't know how many weeks past, maybe two three
Speaker 2: weeks from the beginning it passed.
Speaker 1: His mistress asked if he wanted to join her for
Speaker 1: night adoration, basically a prayer session. Elie Anastasia was excited.
Speaker 1: It was a chance for real silence.
Speaker 2: No sounds, no, no, it's just just only gotten you,
Speaker 2: and this is wonderful.
Speaker 1: After the evening bell rang at ten PM, Ellie Anastasio
Speaker 1: went to the chapel. His mistress sat close and shared
Speaker 1: stories from her life. By two or three am, Eli
Speaker 1: Anastasio was falling asleep. He asked for permission to go
Speaker 1: to bed, got a couple of hours of rest Before
Speaker 1: the morning bell. The next day, the mistress asked him again,
Speaker 1: please join me for night prayers. Ellie Anastasio was sleep
Speaker 1: deprived from the night before, but agreed again. They stayed
Speaker 1: in the chapel until early in the morning. Ellie Anastasia
Speaker 1: says this time, when he started to nod off, the
Speaker 1: mistress pulled his head onto her lap. Then the mistress
Speaker 1: repeated the odd phrases.
Speaker 2: Mother Mary asked me to be your mother. I will
Speaker 2: be a good mother. To you, just God wants to
Speaker 2: your night with you.
Speaker 1: And so on, like she's lulling you because you're so tired.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you understand.
Speaker 2: I can't understand how it happened because in one second
Speaker 2: she's turning I had and I'm finding that she's putting
Speaker 2: her breast into my mouth. I'm lying there and like
Speaker 2: she's putting her breast into my mouth. I paralyzed that moment.
Speaker 2: What is going on? And she's speaking something. It was
Speaker 2: something like Mother Mary was feeding Jesus and I've just paralyzed,
Speaker 2: and I don't know what to do because her breast in.
Speaker 3: My mouth and it's awful. Just and I.
Speaker 2: Don't know how long it was going on. Actually it
Speaker 2: was like every for me. Everything stopped.
Speaker 1: Then there was a noise from the staircase, someone walking
Speaker 1: near the chapel. The mistress quickly covered herself with her
Speaker 1: Sorry again, Eleanasasia. I didn't know what to make of
Speaker 1: what was happening. He had no words. He grew up sheltered,
Speaker 1: no talk of sexual abuse, and he says he never
Speaker 1: received any training from the missionaries of charity about sexual
Speaker 1: harassment or what constitutes an appropriate behavior, even though this
Speaker 1: was a superior the direct voice of God. Something felt
Speaker 1: incredibly wrong.
Speaker 2: How that is possible something like that to happen in
Speaker 2: front of the blessed sacrament the holiest of holy.
Speaker 1: Stories about sexual abuse are often really hard to investigate,
Speaker 1: and it's even harder in a group like this that's
Speaker 1: closed to outsiders. So we partnered with an investigative reporting
Speaker 1: team type Investigations, and we worked with reporter Catherine Joyce. So, Catherine,
Speaker 1: you know, we don't know where sisters are stationed. In
Speaker 1: some cases, we might not even know if they're in
Speaker 1: the order anymore. We don't know their real or secular names,
Speaker 1: and their mail is read by their superior, so if
Speaker 1: we send them a letter, it might not even get
Speaker 1: to them.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I think that this was one of the things that
Speaker 5: was more challenging about reporting the story than any other
Speaker 5: that I've done. It is such an insular group. There's
Speaker 5: another superior who is ultimately making a decision about whether
Speaker 5: or not people can speak to us, and that insularity
Speaker 5: is so much more formalized than in a lot of
Speaker 5: other groups that I've looked at. Over the past decade plus,
Speaker 5: I've reported on this a number of times, sometimes looking
Speaker 5: at abuse in specific Catholic churches sometimes looking at big
Speaker 5: fundamentalist or evangelical institutions, whether that's someplace like Bob Jones
Speaker 5: University or a very large overseas mission group that has
Speaker 5: a lot of members. So I've seen this sort of
Speaker 5: stuff in different settings before, and I think that there
Speaker 5: are some similarities. But one thing that was pretty interesting
Speaker 5: in this case is that there was a substantial paper trail.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, we collected a lot of documents about this story,
Speaker 1: and Eli Anastasia isn't the only person with an allegation
Speaker 1: of sexual abuse in the MCS. We also spoke with
Speaker 1: another former sister named Batilde, and we're going to get
Speaker 1: to her story a little later.
Speaker 5: To confirm both stories, we reviewed legal documents, church investigation reports,
Speaker 5: emails from the MC's regarding their policies. Plus we had
Speaker 5: dozens of letters that both Batilde and eli Anastasia had
Speaker 5: been sending back and forth with the MC's or other
Speaker 5: members of the Catholic hierarchy, other people in their lives,
Speaker 5: sort of testifying to what had happened to them.
Speaker 1: We really did want to hear from the missionaries of
Speaker 1: charity on this, and we wrote to them several times
Speaker 1: we sent them a comprehensive list of questions. They didn't
Speaker 1: answer those questions, but we did get a statement from
Speaker 1: an MC spokesperson who told us that the alleged abusers
Speaker 1: vehemently denied the allegations.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we asked to speak to them directly, but the
Speaker 5: MC's declined. That spokesperson also told us that the fact
Speaker 5: that ele Anastasia and Batilde quote believe they were abused
Speaker 5: is without question, but continued that the evidence compiled and
Speaker 5: the investigations the missionaries of charity conducted contradicts their accusations.
Speaker 1: They're basically saying that they investigated the abuse and they
Speaker 1: say that the abuse did not happen.
Speaker 5: Yep.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 1: The other thing that stuck out to me in this
Speaker 1: response is the suggestion that these former sisters both had
Speaker 1: mental health problems. They also emphasized that neither of them
Speaker 1: took vows, basically implying that they weren't real missionaries of charity,
Speaker 1: sort of as a defense against these allegations.
Speaker 5: You know, there is a long history of responding to
Speaker 5: rape allegations or abuse allegations by denigrating the mental health
Speaker 5: of the person who's making the accusation or delegitimizing them
Speaker 5: in one way or another, basically calling them crazy, sickly
Speaker 5: calling them crazy. You know, back during the Bill Clinton era,
Speaker 5: the defense that was commonly made against all of the
Speaker 5: women who came forward with allegations against President Clinton was
Speaker 5: referred to as nuts and sluts because women were just
Speaker 5: being constantly dismissed as either crazy or promiscuous. I mean,
Speaker 5: I just think that it is a it's a common thing.
Speaker 1: This praying together. It became a nightly ritual. And Ellie
Speaker 1: Anastasia says, his mistress pushed things further.
Speaker 2: She was trying to put for kind, but it should
Speaker 2: not be at all, never, never, never, because of the
Speaker 2: vow of chastity. First to fall under my skirt, and
Speaker 2: I said, whoa stop, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: The mistress pulled back her hand, but kept moving her body.
Speaker 7: Against his.
Speaker 3: And it was just awful.
Speaker 1: Ellie Anastasia wanted to tell someone. He tried to describe
Speaker 1: this thing he didn't understand. In confession, he says, the
Speaker 1: priest dismissed him.
Speaker 3: Child.
Speaker 2: Your superior knows I know how very well. She wouldn't
Speaker 2: wish anything.
Speaker 3: Bad to you. She's your superior. Listen and do what
Speaker 3: she tells you.
Speaker 1: Ellie Anastasia thought maybe he could phone another priest he knew,
Speaker 1: but he had to ask his mistress for permission to
Speaker 1: use a payphone in town. Then his mistress stood directly
Speaker 1: beside him while he made the call. It seemed like
Speaker 1: there was no way to tell anyone, so Ellie Anastasia
Speaker 1: says the abuse continued for months. This type of abuse,
Speaker 1: he alleges abused by a nun. It tends to fly
Speaker 1: under the radar in the Catholic Church, partly because people
Speaker 1: don't expect women to be abusers.
Speaker 6: This is a very unaddressed part of Catholic Church history.
Speaker 1: Mary Despenza used to be a nun. She now works
Speaker 1: with SNAP, the Survivors Network for those abused by priests.
Speaker 1: She leads support groups for survivors. She's their point person
Speaker 1: for abuse involving nuns.
Speaker 6: I have probably heard from one hundred and twenty or
Speaker 6: so survivors of non abuse.
Speaker 1: It wasn't until after she started leading support groups for
Speaker 1: survivors of none abuse that you realize an incident from
Speaker 1: her own time as a nun had been sexual assault.
Speaker 1: That's so hard it can be to recognize none abuse.
Speaker 6: Sometimes religious orders are a little bit different from let's
Speaker 6: say the clergy, because you build up, especially women religious,
Speaker 6: you really become a family.
Speaker 4: I often say.
Speaker 6: Religious abuse within orders men and women is very much
Speaker 6: like incest. The tendency is even greater to keep quiet
Speaker 6: and silent because you don't want to hurt your family.
Speaker 1: And then there's the vow of obedience.
Speaker 8: They're afraid because they're taught. If you ask questions, it's
Speaker 8: a sin. If you doubt anything, it's a sin.
Speaker 1: This is Tom Doyle. He was a Catholic priest for
Speaker 1: forty years. In the nineteen eighties, he became one of
Speaker 1: the first priests to draw attention to the clergy sex
Speaker 1: abuse crisis. He wrote a ninety two page report that
Speaker 1: urged the church to take the problem seriously.
Speaker 8: It was the end of my career in the Vatican
Speaker 8: as a priest.
Speaker 1: Almost twenty years later, the National Catholic Reporter wrote that
Speaker 1: his report had been prophetic. Today, Doyle estimates his report
Speaker 1: has been cited in thousands of lawsuits, and he's become
Speaker 1: a global expert. He's worked on or consulted on more
Speaker 1: than a thousand clergy sex abuse cases around the world.
Speaker 1: He says the rigid hierarchy in conservative religious orders like
Speaker 1: the Missionaries of Charity can trap abuse victims.
Speaker 9: Orders where the Mother General or the Mother Superior's word
Speaker 9: was considered to be the word of God, so that
Speaker 9: even if they would tell you, even if the Superior
Speaker 9: gives you an order that is wrong, you have to
Speaker 9: obey it because it's God's word. Now that is insanity.
Speaker 1: Eli Anastasia learned to follow the rule of obedience years
Speaker 1: before he ever came to India. Back in two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight, six years before his time, intioned Sarah. He
Speaker 1: was just starting out. He was an MC pre aspirant
Speaker 1: in Poland. One day he got news that his grandmother,
Speaker 1: who was like a mother to him, had died. The
Speaker 1: mistress in Poland scolded him for crying. Eli Anastasia asked
Speaker 1: for permission to go home for the funeral, but the
Speaker 1: mistress said.
Speaker 2: If you want to go to funeral or somewhere else,
Speaker 2: but your thinks to go away and never come back again,
Speaker 2: or shut up and go and smile to your sisters.
Speaker 1: So basically, either leave and go to the funeral but
Speaker 1: never come back, yeah, or stay but stop crying, go
Speaker 1: smile and be your sister.
Speaker 2: And It was just one or two hours after I
Speaker 2: got the phone call about that. Oh my heart was
Speaker 2: broken to kid Jesus, I choose you and what I did?
Speaker 2: I cried for the last time I went and I
Speaker 2: started to smile.
Speaker 1: Eli Anastassia was eventually dismissed from the MC house in Poland.
Speaker 1: He told us he doesn't know why. When we ask
Speaker 1: the Missionaries of Charity for comment, an authorized spokesperson claimed
Speaker 1: Eli Anastasia was dismissed because of his personal conduct. The
Speaker 1: spokesperson said it included a claim that he put his
Speaker 1: hand on the throat of a fellow aspirant. The spokesperson
Speaker 1: also alleges that Eli Anastasia's behavior follows a pattern that
Speaker 1: he quote enthusiastically enters a missionary of charity community, forms
Speaker 1: an unhealthy emotional attachment with one of its members, is
Speaker 1: rebuffed by that individual, and then engages in highly inappropriate behavior,
Speaker 1: including threats of suicide, until asked to leave. Eli Anastasia
Speaker 1: says none of this is true.
Speaker 2: Making up rumors and gossips is the only strategy that
Speaker 2: the religious family would choose in this terrible situation, in
Speaker 2: spite of following the way of God, who is a
Speaker 2: friend of truth.
Speaker 1: Eli Anastasia says he wasn't suicidal in Poland. He felt
Speaker 1: being in the MCY house in Poland was one of
Speaker 1: the happiest times in his life. And not only did
Speaker 1: he never assault his fellow aspirant, but he says the
Speaker 1: reverse actually happened. A sister who Anastasia says was troubled,
Speaker 1: had attacked him twice, ripping the buttons off his shirt.
Speaker 1: Plus he says that incident happened nearly a year before
Speaker 1: he was asked to go home, and he says during
Speaker 1: that time his superior told him to start showing his
Speaker 1: sorry to get ready to move to the next stage.
Speaker 1: After he Poland, Eli Anastasia returned home to Russia. He
Speaker 1: volunteered with the MC's in Moscow, and then he got
Speaker 1: a second chance to join the Missionaries of Charity. He
Speaker 1: could start again in India. It felt like a miracle.
Speaker 1: So when his mistress in India invited him to these
Speaker 1: night adorations, he worried that if he disobeyed, he'd be
Speaker 1: sent away again. He says the abuse began in the
Speaker 1: chapel but then spread to other parts of the house,
Speaker 1: in particular mother's room, The room in the house where
Speaker 1: mother Teresa used to stay.
Speaker 3: This is the room of abuse.
Speaker 1: It wasn't separated by a wall, just a bamboo screen
Speaker 1: and a curtain instead of a door.
Speaker 3: Just every day the same story.
Speaker 2: She was coming in the mother's room around eleven o'clock
Speaker 2: and she was taking off my clothes. She was taking
Speaker 2: off holl clothes. She was lying in the bed. She
Speaker 2: was putting me on the top, like trying to put
Speaker 2: breast on breast and just making the movements in order to.
Speaker 1: Get Eliannastas Yeah, loses his words here, but in a
Speaker 1: letter he sent the MCS in twenty nineteen, he wrote
Speaker 1: that his mistress quote moved her body till she got pleasure.
Speaker 2: She was just constantly repeating about the sacrifice and your
Speaker 2: special one. You're my Jesus, I'm Mary. You're like Jesus
Speaker 2: to me. You're like Jesus to me. You're like Jesus
Speaker 2: to me, and like she was whispering on my ear.
Speaker 2: This is for the salvation of the world. This is
Speaker 2: for those who are living in scene. This is for
Speaker 2: those who are not keeping chaesty tis. This is not
Speaker 2: the scene. This is just a sacrifice.
Speaker 1: One time, ali Anastasia says he traveled with his mistress
Speaker 1: to Kolkata. While they are there, the mistress pointed out
Speaker 1: another nun. She said that sister betrayed her. The mistress
Speaker 1: told ali Anastasia, I was a mother to her. She
Speaker 1: was my daughter like you. She was like my Jesus.
Speaker 1: Ali Anastasia thought to himself, this is my mistress, admitting
Speaker 1: she's done this before. The mistress then turned to Elie
Speaker 1: Anastasia and.
Speaker 2: Said, will you betray me? Why are you going to
Speaker 2: be my judas?
Speaker 1: For decades, the news has been full of stories of
Speaker 1: sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic Church. They started coming
Speaker 1: to light while Mother Teresa was still alive and came
Speaker 1: close to home.
Speaker 10: I don't know how you know about Tom maguire, but
Speaker 10: he was a serial abuser of boys.
Speaker 1: Terry McKiernan is the founder of Bishop Accountability, an organization
Speaker 1: that documents abuse in the Catholic Church. He's referring to
Speaker 1: Donald maguire, formerly Father Donald Mare, a Jesuit priest defrocked
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight. Donald McGuire was one of
Speaker 1: many priests who went to prison for sexually abusing boys,
Speaker 1: and one of the most prominent. He was a conservative
Speaker 1: and inspiring priest with powerful friends.
Speaker 10: His mo was that he targeted wealthy, right wing Catholic families,
Speaker 10: and once he ingratiated himself into that family and began
Speaker 10: syphoning off funds, he would also convince them to allow
Speaker 10: their twelve or thirteen year old son to accompany him
Speaker 10: as his secretary. During these trips, which were you know,
Speaker 10: basically he was always on the road, he would sexually
Speaker 10: assault the boy who had been picked to be his
Speaker 10: his secretary.
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty three, McGuire became a spiritual director of
Speaker 1: the Missionaries of Charity. He traveled the world to MC
Speaker 1: houses to hear confessions from MC sisters, and he held
Speaker 1: dozens of retreats for the order. Mother Teresa also met
Speaker 1: alone with him for confession and spiritual advice. You've actually
Speaker 1: heard about Donald McGuire before. He's the priest who warned
Speaker 1: Joan Worcester not to leave the MCS or she'd get
Speaker 1: divorced and have children with disabilities. In the nineteen nineties,
Speaker 1: McGuire was removed from his position in the church because
Speaker 1: of abuse allegations. The San Francisco Weekly published a letter
Speaker 1: that appeared to be written by Mother Teresa, though it
Speaker 1: wasn't signed. In it, she worried about the reputation of
Speaker 1: the priesthood. She said she trusted McGuire and she wished
Speaker 1: to quote see his vital ministry resume as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: McGuire did return, and allegation soon emerged that his abuse continued.
Speaker 1: In an emailed statement, the mc spokesperson said they didn't
Speaker 1: believe Mother Teresa personally wrote the letter supporting McGuire, and
Speaker 1: that McGuire had deceived Mother Teresa and betrayed her trust.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and three, Donald McGuire went to trial
Speaker 1: for abuse. Mother Teresa's successor, sister Nimala Joshi, sent a
Speaker 1: letter to the judge defending his character.
Speaker 10: The sisters and they're very distinctive as guard, attended the
Speaker 10: trial to support him. There are pictures of this in
Speaker 10: the courthouse.
Speaker 1: The sisters wore buttons on their sare's that read I
Speaker 1: support father McGuire.
Speaker 10: The sisters were very very present at that trial.
Speaker 1: In the end, he was convicted and sent to prison
Speaker 1: for twenty five years. What happened with Donald McGuire and
Speaker 1: the MCS, it gives me a sense of how the
Speaker 1: congregation responds to sexual abuse from the top down. And
Speaker 1: that's what I think this episode is about, not just
Speaker 1: how a culture can enable abuse, but also how a
Speaker 1: system works when abuse comes to light. It makes me
Speaker 1: think of a story Mary Johnson told me. You've heard
Speaker 1: from Mary Johnson throughout this series. One time she told
Speaker 1: me said that that caught my attention, a story that
Speaker 1: seemed to shed light on the culture of the congregation
Speaker 1: when it comes to sexual assault.
Speaker 7: There was one time there was a sister she was
Speaker 7: very upset about something.
Speaker 1: Mary had a lot of responsibility. She traveled with Mother Teresa.
Speaker 1: She prepared sisters for final vows, basically upper management. She says.
Speaker 1: She told me at one point that she learned about
Speaker 1: something that happened to several sisters in Europe.
Speaker 7: There was a terrible thing that happened in a convent
Speaker 7: in a remote location, and one night men broke into
Speaker 7: the convent and they raped the sisters, and it was
Speaker 7: a really horrible thing.
Speaker 1: Mary says this story was somewhat common knowledge among sisters.
Speaker 1: With authority. She heard about it from several nuns, including
Speaker 1: one who was there that night. Another former sister told
Speaker 1: us she'd heard about the same attack. Also directly from
Speaker 1: a sister who'd been there. She said it was whispered
Speaker 1: about in Kolcutta, but considered top secret. In Mary Johnson's case,
Speaker 1: she says she helped one of the nuns from that
Speaker 1: convent prepare for final vows. The sister told Mary that
Speaker 1: the victims talk to Mother Teresa about the.
Speaker 7: Attack, and Mother told them, now you have told Mother,
Speaker 7: you must never tell anyone else again. You must never
Speaker 7: speak of it. And obviously this is not going to
Speaker 7: be helpful to those sisters. Those sisters had had this
Speaker 7: very traumatic experience. You don't heal from trauma by ignoring it.
Speaker 1: Why do you think Mother Teresa said that to them,
Speaker 1: to not speak of it ever again.
Speaker 7: She would often say that for various things, like, Okay,
Speaker 7: you've told Mother, now, never speak of it again, for
Speaker 7: various things. For Mother, speaking about bad things that had
Speaker 7: happened was almost as bad, or even worse than the
Speaker 7: fact that the thing had happened.
Speaker 1: Mary says, Mother Teresa just didn't understand how trauma worked,
Speaker 1: that hiding something could make it worse, and that brings
Speaker 1: us to Batild. Batilde asked us not to use her
Speaker 1: last name. She's sixty two years old and lives in Paris,
Speaker 1: and she was once a sister with the Missionaries of Charity.
Speaker 4: The first letter.
Speaker 1: Over the past eighteen years, she's written a lot of letters.
Speaker 1: They describe abuse, she says she experienced in the order,
Speaker 1: letters to the head of the Missionaries of Charity, letters
Speaker 1: to the Vatican.
Speaker 4: Yes, I have it in front of me.
Speaker 1: The first letter in two thousand and three was to
Speaker 1: his sister. We're not naming her alleged abuser.
Speaker 4: I think you remember me. I was your postudent in
Speaker 4: Rome in San Gregorio, a on the year nighteen eighty seven,
Speaker 4: the one that you have sexually abused.
Speaker 1: It was in that convent in San Gregorio that she
Speaker 1: met the sister who she says sexually abused her. Her mistress.
Speaker 1: But Til says, at first the mistress just directed her
Speaker 1: as she would any pasturelant. But a few weeks in
Speaker 1: her mistress told her she loved her. Then things became physical.
Speaker 4: After night prayer, she would sit calm and then sitting
Speaker 4: in the bench, and then she would kiss me, and
Speaker 4: I mean I don't like to see it. She would,
Speaker 4: I mean she would kiss me, she would put my breast.
Speaker 4: She would tell me. One day I will take your
Speaker 4: clothes all out and I will kiss you everywhere. But
Speaker 4: she only said, and she did not do. I knew
Speaker 4: that every day it would happen, That's all I knew.
Speaker 1: Batilda did what she could to avoid her, but that
Speaker 1: angered her.
Speaker 4: Mistress, you have to you have to obey me. You
Speaker 4: are very disobedient.
Speaker 1: In time, she says, the abuse became more forceful.
Speaker 4: She would take me and we were to get that
Speaker 4: big corridor. She would push me again the wall or
Speaker 4: walking in front of me, and then turned suddenly and
Speaker 4: taking me in to her arms. And I mean I
Speaker 4: could not escape. I mean I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 1: Batilda says she didn't dare tell the regional Superior. She
Speaker 1: just yelled at her. She told multiple priests, but says
Speaker 1: they were no help, that they pretended not to hear
Speaker 1: her and change the subject. She says mother Teresa once
Speaker 1: asked her if someone was bothering her, but that she
Speaker 1: said nothing for fear of being scolded. Batilda outwardly changed
Speaker 1: during this time. She remembers the regional Superior reprimanded.
Speaker 4: Her, why are you not smiling? You never smile. I
Speaker 4: could not smile. I was it was difficult.
Speaker 1: Eventually she gave up. She felt empty justin.
Speaker 4: Let her do and I did not defend myself.
Speaker 1: Batild graduated out of postulancy and was transferred to Poland.
Speaker 1: The abuse was over. It was a relief, so much
Speaker 1: so she remarked one day how nice it was to
Speaker 1: be there, and according to Batilde, the superior there overheard
Speaker 1: and asked what she meant. She started to tell her
Speaker 1: story and the superior stopped her. You don't need to
Speaker 1: go any further, She said, I know who it is.
Speaker 1: She named Batild's mistress and said she did the same
Speaker 1: to another sister. Batild superior urged her to repeat the
Speaker 1: story to the regional superior, so she did, but she
Speaker 1: says the regional reacted with disdain. She told Batilde, I
Speaker 1: knew you were a kind of sister like that. Years later,
Speaker 1: when Batild confronted the order with her allegations, both the
Speaker 1: superior and the regional superior said they didn't recall those conversations.
Speaker 1: When the time came, Batild was not permitted to take
Speaker 1: her vows. She says she wasn't told why. Instead, she
Speaker 1: was abruptly sent home. After two years, she asked to
Speaker 1: rejoin the MCS, she was accepted into the Contemplative branch.
Speaker 1: Contemplative days were quiet, filled with prayer, but in that silence,
Speaker 1: she started having flashbacks and trouble sleeping.
Speaker 4: She says.
Speaker 1: She reached out to Sister Nimala Joshi, the founder of
Speaker 1: the Contemplative branch. She told Sister Normala about the abuse.
Speaker 1: In response, Batilde says, Sister Narmala encouraged her to see
Speaker 1: a psychologist. And one more.
Speaker 4: Thing, she told me, you don't speak to anybody of
Speaker 4: what happened. You speak to nobody, absolutely nobody, So I mean,
Speaker 4: is the thing that I have to do? Speak to anybody?
Speaker 4: And then now having very much pain in this talk,
Speaker 4: and then that was not a good thing to say,
Speaker 4: not to speak to anybody.
Speaker 1: In time, Batilda was sent home again, dismissed from the MCS,
Speaker 1: and again it wasn't clear why, just a vague suggestion
Speaker 1: that she wasn't obedient enough. They dropped her off at
Speaker 1: the airport with four hundred dollars and a miraculous medal,
Speaker 1: one of those tokens Mother Teresa used to give out.
Speaker 1: Batild went home to Paris years past. That brings us
Speaker 1: back to the letter writing around two thousand and three,
Speaker 1: Batilda read in the newspaper about the global sexual abuse
Speaker 1: scandal on the Catholic Church. She was still haunted by
Speaker 1: her own experience. She decided to write a letter. She thought,
Speaker 1: maybe an acknowledgment or an apology will help me heal.
Speaker 4: And I will feel much better and I will feel
Speaker 4: all right. I mean, all my life is rooin for me.
Speaker 1: She damaged everything, so she wrote to her former mistress, you.
Speaker 4: Made my life very difficult. It was very difficult to
Speaker 4: pray because of flashback coming in my head. Lack of trust,
Speaker 4: pain in the stomach and lack of trust were the superiors.
Speaker 4: How do you repair all that?
Speaker 1: She also sent a copy to Sister Nimala, the sister
Speaker 1: who'd sent her to a psychologist and told her never
Speaker 1: to speak of it. By now, Sister Narmala was actually
Speaker 1: the Superior General Mother Teresa's successor to lead the MCS
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks later, but Tilt heared back from
Speaker 1: her former mistress. She flatly denied the allegations. I have
Speaker 1: done nothing to bring upon me such an accusation, she wrote.
Speaker 1: Then she ended the letter, I am praying for you
Speaker 1: and asking the Lord to forgive you.
Speaker 4: I felt very very bad. Dead letter, very bad.
Speaker 1: She also received a respond from Sister Nimala, the head
Speaker 1: of the MC at the time.
Speaker 4: Dear Bathilde, thank you for the copy of your letter
Speaker 4: to sister date fourth November two or three, accusing her
Speaker 4: of sexually abusing you when you were a postant. I
Speaker 4: was deeply pain when I read it.
Speaker 1: In the letter, Sister Nermala said, she spoke to the
Speaker 1: alleged abuser, and that quote, the mature way in which
Speaker 1: she responded to such a painful situation, leaves me no
Speaker 1: room to doubt her sincerity. Then Sister Normala addressed but
Speaker 1: telt herself.
Speaker 4: I wonder what made you write such a letter. Is
Speaker 4: it really true? Or is it because you are so
Speaker 4: hurt in life that you can't help hurting others also?
Speaker 4: Whatever it may be, I asked Jesu if to take
Speaker 4: away all the burden of pain you carry in your
Speaker 4: heart and fill it with his own love, so that
Speaker 4: you may be able to forgive all who have hurt you,
Speaker 4: and ask pardon of all whom you have heard, and
Speaker 4: ask o lady, and to be tilled.
Speaker 1: The message was clear she was the one causing problems
Speaker 1: case closed, no follow up, no investigation, no apology.
Speaker 4: As with much love and prayer, God bless you, Sister
Speaker 4: Nyamala MC.
Speaker 1: This did not inter Beteld. She wrote Sister Nimala back
Speaker 1: the next month in December two thousand and three, no response.
Speaker 1: Again in June two thousand and four, no response. In
Speaker 1: November two thousand and four, she wrote again, Please sister,
Speaker 1: do not put down a sister who was suffered from
Speaker 1: sexual harassment, otherwise you victimize her. A second time, more silence.
Speaker 1: Finally Sister Nimala responded. It was late January two thousand
Speaker 1: and five. Sister Nimala wrote, we want to know the truth.
Speaker 1: Truth must prevail. She said the MC's had a policy
Speaker 1: and procedure to follow and were starting an investigation. She
Speaker 1: also said Buttilt would send any evidence she had to
Speaker 1: prove her accusations. Batild went into overdrive. She gathered letters
Speaker 1: from family members and her old psychologist. Her sister wrote
Speaker 1: that after leaving the MCS, Batild suffered from flashbacks and
Speaker 1: her face was dull. Batild mailed it all to the
Speaker 1: Missionaries of Charity. The mc said they would contact Batild
Speaker 1: quote at the appropriate time, but batildt says she was
Speaker 1: never told what was involved or who was being talked
Speaker 1: to for the investigation. She received no follow up questions, nothing. Frustrated,
Speaker 1: she wrote to officials in the Catholic hierarchy. They offered
Speaker 1: Betild empathy, but little else. Eventually, a year and a
Speaker 1: half later, in two thousand and six, the church sent
Speaker 1: Betild a response. It says, quote, it appears that material
Speaker 1: evidence which could support your accusations against the sister beyond
Speaker 1: any doubt, is missing. Actually there is only one testimony,
Speaker 1: yours against the sister's word. Again, case closed. To this day,
Speaker 1: Bathild says she's never seen any official report or other
Speaker 1: documentation of the investigation, and to this day she says
Speaker 1: what her mistress did affects her.
Speaker 4: Prayer is difficult to pray, but I do. I do.
Speaker 4: I feel hard in everything. I feel like I feel
Speaker 4: like if I don't exist, it's like a big, infinite
Speaker 4: devastation of the being.
Speaker 3: Me.
Speaker 4: I want a truth, that's all, and I'm not getting it.
Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, Batilde renewed her letter writing campaign. She
Speaker 1: wrote to Pope Francis, who'd said sympathetic things about victims.
Speaker 1: She didn't hear back from him. She heard from the
Speaker 1: Vatican's Office on Religious Orders off her allegations, and eventually
Speaker 1: they warned that if she continued to say the Church
Speaker 1: had treated her unfairly, she could face legal action for slander.
Speaker 1: El Anastasia couldn't sleep, or really, his mistress wouldn't let
Speaker 1: him sleep. It was twenty fourteen in the conventation Surah, India.
Speaker 1: He uses he him pronouns now. He says his mistress
Speaker 1: abused him almost every night for months. She kept him
Speaker 1: up until an hour or two before the morning bell.
Speaker 2: I was a zombie. You didn't understand what I'm doing.
Speaker 2: I could not really even separate the reality and not
Speaker 2: reality because you're sleeping or not sleeping. It was just
Speaker 2: one day, which is not finishing.
Speaker 1: One night, eli Anasasia and his mistress heard a sound.
Speaker 1: Somebody nearby used the bathroom and then left quickly. Eli
Speaker 1: Anastasia figured the sister must have overheard them.
Speaker 2: For sure, everybody heard it. It is just not possible
Speaker 2: not to hear.
Speaker 1: Then, out of the blue, a senior sister from MC
Speaker 1: headquarters visited the house. She interviewed eli Anasasia's fellow pastulant
Speaker 1: for an entire day. Soon after, ali Anasasia says he
Speaker 1: was abruptly summoned to Kolkatta by Sister Ansie, the head
Speaker 1: of the MC's contemplative branch.
Speaker 2: And she said, I want to talk to you or
Speaker 2: have a conversation. Please come on Wednesday, but by the way,
Speaker 2: can you pick up all your clothes and things.
Speaker 1: Eli Anastasia's mistress was summoned too. When they arrived, Sister
Speaker 1: Ansie spoke to the mistress for first. They talked for
Speaker 1: over an hour. Then it was Eli Anastasia's turn.
Speaker 2: Hello, sister, and she's starting to shout at me. You
Speaker 2: have to go from here with a minute, sister. I
Speaker 2: can't understand what is going on, like I'm believing that
Speaker 2: in Chinsula. I cannot understand what is happening, Like what
Speaker 2: is the reason you called me?
Speaker 3: Can you explain me what you want from me?
Speaker 1: Eli Anastasio was being sent away, not just from Chinsura,
Speaker 1: not just from India, but he would find out later
Speaker 1: from the missionaries of charity, and he didn't know why.
Speaker 1: In an email to us, the MC spokesperson suggested that
Speaker 1: Eli Anastasio was dismissed because of his personal conduct. The
Speaker 1: spokesperson implied he'd become fixated on a fellow sister and
Speaker 1: acted inappropriately. Eli Anastasia says, no one said anything like
Speaker 1: this to him.
Speaker 2: There was no nothing euh like, no no breakings of
Speaker 2: the rules, nothing, nothing, nothing, he says.
Speaker 1: He asked again and again why he was being sent away. Finally,
Speaker 1: he says, sister Unsie told him that since Eli Anastasio
Speaker 1: was Russian and Vladimir Putin had invaded Ukraine, his presence
Speaker 1: might cause problems for the sisters in Chinsura.
Speaker 2: I can't understand, really, what is the reason, because what
Speaker 2: I have to do with Putin?
Speaker 1: As far as he knew, no sister had ever been
Speaker 1: sent away from the MCS for something like this. After all,
Speaker 1: once you're called, you're called for life. He was given
Speaker 1: a plane ticket home to Russia. As for his mistress,
Speaker 1: Alianisasia says she also got a ticket. She was transferred
Speaker 1: to another MC branch in Nepal. Once he was back
Speaker 1: in Russia, Eli Anastasia fell into a deep depression. Friend
Speaker 1: he stayed with had to force him to eat.
Speaker 2: I was just a vegetable out of reality, fully, no desires, nothing, nothing.
Speaker 1: He didn't have the language to explain what had happened
Speaker 1: to him. For a few months he was suicidal. One
Speaker 1: day he spent a long time alone in a chapel
Speaker 1: in front of the altar, pleading with God.
Speaker 2: So on the question to God, why if you gave
Speaker 2: me this vocation to be a nun, why it had happened,
Speaker 2: How you allowed to deal with it? How I should
Speaker 2: live with that? Where is the way you called me?
Speaker 2: And what shall I do now?
Speaker 3: With all that?
Speaker 2: I cannot even understand what is going on, crying and
Speaker 2: shouting to Jesus, and crying and shouting still.
Speaker 1: Eventually ali an Assassium met other people who had suffered
Speaker 1: traumatic experiences. They gave him the words he needed, sexual
Speaker 1: abuse PTSD. Over time he thought maybe there are other
Speaker 1: victims and the missionaries of charity, and if I couldn't
Speaker 1: name what happened, how could they. In twenty nineteen, five
Speaker 1: years after he was forced from the order, ali Anastasia
Speaker 1: wrote a letter your sisters.
Speaker 2: This letter is written in fulfillment of the instruction of
Speaker 2: my spiritual father and it is addressed to Reverend Sister Prema,
Speaker 2: as the head of the Society of the Missionaries of Charity.
Speaker 2: The main topic of this letter is sexual and spiritual abuse.
Speaker 1: Ali Anastasia laid out what had happened to him.
Speaker 2: I wanted to have a dialogue with the society first,
Speaker 2: just to share my story, because my main aim to
Speaker 2: change the neglect.
Speaker 1: Three months later, he got a phone call. It was
Speaker 1: Sister Prema, the current Superior General of the MCS. She
Speaker 1: asked Eli Anastasia, what exactly did he want them to
Speaker 1: do for him. So Ali Anastasia wrote a list of
Speaker 1: systemic changes. Provided ducation and training on sexual violence, support
Speaker 1: pasted victims with psychological care, financially compensate sisters who leave
Speaker 1: their vocation, especially sisters from underdeveloped countries, offer rehabilitation for
Speaker 1: perpetrators and prevent them from serving in physitions of power.
Speaker 2: I was asking close to Sister Prema to appoint a
Speaker 2: proper person to whom any sisters anyone in the society
Speaker 2: can freely without permission, without asking permission for a phone call,
Speaker 2: can turn and to report.
Speaker 1: In response, the MC's commissioned a canon lawyer to look
Speaker 1: at the case. A canon lawyer is someone accredited to
Speaker 1: work within the Catholic Church's internal legal system.
Speaker 11: My name is Helen Costigan. I'm a member of the
Speaker 11: Society of the Holy Child Jesus. I live in Hammersmith
Speaker 11: and London, and I teach model theology and canon lawsuit
Speaker 11: Mary's University in Twickenham.
Speaker 1: Helen Costigan's job was to investigate the claims of abuse,
Speaker 1: but she told us she wasn't actually able to conduct
Speaker 1: a full investigation. The sisters were too hard to reach,
Speaker 1: often in remote locations with bad connections and no computers.
Speaker 1: But Helen Costigan wrote a report. The spokesperson for the
Speaker 1: Missionaries of Charity set in an email to us that
Speaker 1: Costigan's report concluded there was quote no concrete evidence to
Speaker 1: suffort the allegations. She did say that, but it's not
Speaker 1: all she.
Speaker 11: Said, and there is no evidence to support the allegations.
Speaker 11: But that's not to say that it didn't happen.
Speaker 1: Like Elianastasia, she told the mcs they should make changes,
Speaker 1: provide training and maintaining proper boundaries, create an external channel
Speaker 1: to report abuse, and psychologically assess sisters when they enter.
Speaker 1: She said the mc should look at Pope Francis's new
Speaker 1: guidelines on sexual abuse, which expressly forbid retaliation against victims.
Speaker 11: That's somethings Porte Francis has said, you have to listen
Speaker 11: to the victims that's important.
Speaker 1: Costigan asked Eleannastasia to total his expenses related to his trauma,
Speaker 1: and she told the MCS to follow up about compensation. Finally,
Speaker 1: she asked the MCS to give eli Anastasia a copy
Speaker 1: of the official report, but the Missionaries of Charity didn't
Speaker 1: do that. Instead, in February twenty twenty, they sent ele
Speaker 1: Anastasia a letter. It insinuated that his allegations were just
Speaker 1: a ruse for money, that Eli Anastasia should quote be careful,
Speaker 1: and then they wrote this, what you have written could
Speaker 1: be considered blackmail. We would not want to jeopardize your
Speaker 1: situation or create unnecessary liability issues.
Speaker 2: She's just threatening me with the black mail. If I
Speaker 2: would not have such a support like now on that letter,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I would be suicidal.
Speaker 1: Costigan was concerned enough that she responded to the MCS directly, writing.
Speaker 11: I was appalled by the tone and content. Is putting
Speaker 11: it mildly because I have to say I thought, oh,
Speaker 11: that's really you know, that's not helping in a sense.
Speaker 1: After Costigan's letter, the MCS did send eli Anastasia the report,
Speaker 1: but now he worried he could be at legal risk,
Speaker 1: so he looked for a lawyer. He found his way
Speaker 1: to Tom Doyle, the former priest we heard from earlier
Speaker 1: who's worked on more than a thousand clergy sex abuse cases.
Speaker 1: He's also a canon lawyer. He consulted pro bono on
Speaker 1: ele Anastasia's case for a few months in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: and twenty twenty one. This spring, they parted ways after
Speaker 1: a disagreement about a partnering legal group, but Doyle says
Speaker 1: he still believes ele Anastasia's allegations and supports the case.
Speaker 1: Eli Anastasia hopes to continue his case, not a criminal
Speaker 1: complaint to press charges or a civil complaint for compensation.
Speaker 1: He wants to enter a canon law process with the Vatican.
Speaker 1: He wants to convince the Church to investigate abuse and
Speaker 1: neglect in the missionaries of charity. He hopes to start
Speaker 1: a class action complaint for people who have suffered similar
Speaker 1: abuse or neglect from the mcs.
Speaker 2: And still I have nothing against the sisters itself, I
Speaker 2: have nothing against the charge itself. Still today I have
Speaker 2: wonderful sisters who are really leaving their vocation as they
Speaker 2: can and trying to do the best they can.
Speaker 3: I'm against the system.
Speaker 2: We should embrace our faults, to change, to take a
Speaker 2: responsibility for annection.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting to me here and you say
Speaker 1: that because it's bringing to my mind that speaking your
Speaker 1: faults and acknowledging your failure is such a big part
Speaker 1: of being a missionary of charity. And so in a
Speaker 1: sense what you're asking for is actually very central to
Speaker 1: the mission, which is to acknowledge sin or acknowledge faults
Speaker 1: and making amends in some way. And that's what you want.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Today, missionaries of charity, there are really witnesses of silence,
Speaker 2: to cover up, to hide, to silence others. That's not
Speaker 2: a silence in which God leaves. It is completely opposite.
Speaker 2: God is not a friend of covering up the oppression.
Speaker 2: God is a friend of truth. Preach the truth as
Speaker 2: if you had a million voices. It is silence that
Speaker 2: kills the world.
Speaker 1: This episode was reported in partnership with Type Investigations. You
Speaker 1: can find out more at Type investigations dot org. Special
Speaker 1: thanks to reporter Katherine Joyce, editor Sasha Bolenki, Factchucker Nandanni Rotti,
Speaker 1: and editor Sarah Blustain. The Turning is written by Allen
Speaker 1: Lance Lesser and me Our producers are Allen Lancelesser and
Speaker 1: Emily Foreman. Our editor is Rob Rosenthal Andrea Esfahe is
Speaker 1: our digital producer. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Special
Speaker 1: thanks to Adeleine Seer, Marie Claire Jeauvois, Amy Gaines, Sarah Olander,
Speaker 1: Maraud Frishkoff, Bethanne Mcaluso, Travis Dunlap, and consulting producer Mary Johnson.
Speaker 1: Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst provided inspiration for this series.
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Jessica Alpert and John Paratti and
Speaker 1: Rococo Punch and Katrino Norvella iHeartRadio. Our theme music is
Speaker 1: by Matt Reid. For photos and more details on this series,
Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch. You can reach
Speaker 1: out via email to the Turning at Rococo Punch dot com. Hi,
Speaker 1: Am Erica Lance. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2: M