Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't know stories of things. We simply
Speaker 1: don't know the answer to. Hello and welcome to Thinking
Speaker 1: Sideways the podcast. I am Steve, as always joined by Joe,
Speaker 1: and this week we are bringing you yet another mystery.
Speaker 1: Well it's kind of what we do. It's super creepy mystery.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say creepy weird. It's a little weird, unlike
Speaker 1: the kind of mysteries we usually do, which are totally
Speaker 1: normal all the time. Yeah. Yeah, nothing to see here,
Speaker 1: nothing to see here, move along please all right, Well,
Speaker 1: today's story is about the disappearance of snee Huff Philip
Speaker 1: and it was suggested by Linley on Facebook excellently when
Speaker 1: this was initially suggested, it's a it's a really intriguing
Speaker 1: story and really interesting. But I was initially hesitant to
Speaker 1: to cover this story. Yeah, I mean, we had a
Speaker 1: conversation as a team and I I actually had a
Speaker 1: quite a long conversation with the folks on the Facebook group.
Speaker 1: They they talked to me about it, and eventually they
Speaker 1: convinced me that it was okay to go ahead and
Speaker 1: cover it. About nine eleven issues, Well, yeah, that's exactly
Speaker 1: it is. Because this story does deal with nine eleven,
Speaker 1: and it's considered one of the you know, one of
Speaker 1: the greatest tragedies or attacks in this country. Yes, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's something that is still sensitive fourteen years later.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to preface the story by saying that
Speaker 1: what we're going to talk about deals with nine eleven,
Speaker 1: and it's it's pretty evolved in the events of September eleven,
Speaker 1: two thousand one. We're not going to talk talk about
Speaker 1: that as much. It's just bits of the story that
Speaker 1: are going to touch on it. So if you're sensitive
Speaker 1: about it for whatever reason, be aware of that. I
Speaker 1: don't think our listeners are really all that sensitive, So
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be it's there are people
Speaker 1: who were involved that it is still a painful topic
Speaker 1: to deal with, and so I just want to put
Speaker 1: that out there. So let's let's go ahead and let's
Speaker 1: start talking about our story. We're going to talk about
Speaker 1: Sneah Philip Stee was born in nine in India, and
Speaker 1: then with her family she moved to the United States.
Speaker 1: She wanted to study medicine, and so she decided to
Speaker 1: go to the Chicago School of Medicine and she started
Speaker 1: there While she was there, she met a young man
Speaker 1: named Ron Lieberman. She would eventually marry him five years later.
Speaker 1: After they graduated, both of them land that he was
Speaker 1: also a school a student at that same schools. He
Speaker 1: was dreaming to be a doctors wanted to go into medicine.
Speaker 1: They landed internships both in New York City. Ron had
Speaker 1: his internship at the Jacoby Medical Center in the Bronx.
Speaker 1: Snee Hawk got hers at the Cabrini Medical Center. So
Speaker 1: they they're going to be doctors. They've got They moved
Speaker 1: to New York. They get an apartment. All is well
Speaker 1: and good. It sounds like they had a cool apartment
Speaker 1: to right down the battery. Yeah, pretty sweet. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: know it was. It's a great neighborhood. I did a
Speaker 1: little I pulled the Joe, I did a little bit
Speaker 1: of cruising around Google Maps. I know he's rubbing off
Speaker 1: on us. So we're gonna go ahead and we're gonna
Speaker 1: start our story. On the afternoon of September two thousand
Speaker 1: and one, one left four work on that afternoon and
Speaker 1: Sneehaw she had the day off, So according to what's available,
Speaker 1: she was in the apartment for most of the day,
Speaker 1: she had a conversation with her mom online that lasted
Speaker 1: for two hours. Like Skype or like chatting. It was
Speaker 1: a messenger. It was a messenger conversation. Yeah, I guess, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it was probably a o LL instant Messenger
Speaker 1: Microsoft Messenger, since I forget what it would like in
Speaker 1: those days. I don't know what it was like in
Speaker 1: those days. I mean, I don't remember. I was. I
Speaker 1: was a freshman, so I was kind of in the
Speaker 1: thick of it, and I sometimes I forget. Just the
Speaker 1: other day, I was thinking, Oh, what was the email
Speaker 1: address I had before I had Gmail? Wasn't that long
Speaker 1: ago that Gmail came into existence? Yes? It was. Well,
Speaker 1: she so she has this, She has this two hour
Speaker 1: conversation with her ally, and then she apparently decided to
Speaker 1: go shopping. This is based on charges that are on
Speaker 1: her husband's American Express card and security footage of her
Speaker 1: which the security footage was found later. But she went
Speaker 1: to a Century twenty one, which this particular store was
Speaker 1: across the street from the World Trade Center. It's not
Speaker 1: the movie theater, it's it's a it's a store. It's
Speaker 1: it's a store. Because she she bought like bedding and shoes.
Speaker 1: I think she bought lingerie to like it's a full
Speaker 1: one department store. I've never heard of Century twenty one
Speaker 1: before this, but but yeah, so she she did all
Speaker 1: of this, and based on the time stamp when she
Speaker 1: paid for all of her purchases with the American Express,
Speaker 1: she finished up around six o'clock in the afternoon. Ron
Speaker 1: her husband, says that he got home that night around midnight.
Speaker 1: He'd had a long day at work. He gets home,
Speaker 1: his wife's not there. But based on everything that I've
Speaker 1: read from him, that wasn't totally out of the ordinary.
Speaker 1: She was known to go out and then decide to
Speaker 1: stay with family members, brother or a cousin or somebody
Speaker 1: is big. It's hard to get around sometimes. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know I can go here that's ten blocks away
Speaker 1: rather than the thirty fifty blocks I gotta go home. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: So it wasn't abnormal. And he has said that, well,
Speaker 1: I guess that. You know, he got home that night
Speaker 1: and said, well, I guess that's something we got to
Speaker 1: talk about again. Because the deal was between the pair
Speaker 1: that she was supposed to call home and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm staying away brother's house or I'm staying at so
Speaker 1: and so's house. That makes sense to me. I think
Speaker 1: that's fair. Yeah. Absolutely. Ron wakes up the next morning, September.
Speaker 1: His wife's still not home, but he's got an eight
Speaker 1: o'clock meeting. So he gets up and I think it's
Speaker 1: six or six thirty. He's got to take the subway
Speaker 1: to get to work. It's like an hour commune or something,
Speaker 1: so he's got to go. She's not home. He goes
Speaker 1: to work. Well, if you know anything about September eleven,
Speaker 1: as of eight forty six am Eastern Standard time, that's
Speaker 1: when American Airlines Flight eleven flew into the North Tower
Speaker 1: of the World Trade Center, And to put it lightly,
Speaker 1: that's when chaos ensued. I mean things, Yeah, things went
Speaker 1: crazy after that. Ron he called sneak has several times
Speaker 1: over the course of the day, but she never answers
Speaker 1: home at the apartment or calling her cell phone. I
Speaker 1: can't answer that, he doesn't say. I'm under the impression
Speaker 1: that he was calling the house because she was supposed
Speaker 1: to be at home, because she had both the tenth
Speaker 1: and the eleventh off, so presumably he was expecting her
Speaker 1: to have gone home. But I don't know that she
Speaker 1: had a cell phone. Well, you know, she could have
Speaker 1: been home, she could have had a cell phone. I
Speaker 1: think the other thing to keep in mind is, because
Speaker 1: it was September eleven, almost literally everybody in America was
Speaker 1: calling almost literally anybody they knew in New York or
Speaker 1: who might be in New York trying to get ahold
Speaker 1: of them. Lines did get really clogged and did a
Speaker 1: lot of calls just didn't go through. And if you know,
Speaker 1: their homeline, they didn't have an answering machine or whatever.
Speaker 1: He could have tried and tried and tried and not
Speaker 1: realized that it wasn't connecting quite possibly, you know, or whatever. No, No,
Speaker 1: that's that's a that's a very valid point. Well let's
Speaker 1: see what So we're we're into the afternoon of September eleven.
Speaker 1: He's at work that the hospital had been in huge
Speaker 1: preparations for all of the wounded that we're going to
Speaker 1: come in from the World Trade Center, which didn't actually happen.
Speaker 1: So he gets he takes off from work, and what
Speaker 1: does he do. He goes to the hospital that she
Speaker 1: works at, which was on Staten Island, right, Yes it was.
Speaker 1: And I'm guessing that his idea was that she must
Speaker 1: have seen what was going on and said I got
Speaker 1: to get to work, I've got to help. Yeah, a
Speaker 1: lot of people did that in those professions. Absolutely, there's
Speaker 1: an interesting not to you know, go too much into
Speaker 1: the nine eleven situation. But you know Steve Bushemi the actor,
Speaker 1: he was a firefighter before he was an actor. He
Speaker 1: worked for the New York Fire Department. And he actually
Speaker 1: like went back to his old fire station and geared
Speaker 1: up and went in and was like saving people. That
Speaker 1: was the thing everybody was doing, right Yea, even if
Speaker 1: you had no training, you were they were jumping in
Speaker 1: trying to help with Yeah, there's there were people running
Speaker 1: and doing everything. Clearly reasonable for him to say, oh,
Speaker 1: she's a caring person. She probably went to work because
Speaker 1: she thought that it would be there, except she wasn't there. Okay,
Speaker 1: So what he then decides, Okay, I'm going home, which
Speaker 1: is the next logical course of action when you can't
Speaker 1: find your wife and the city is literally in flames
Speaker 1: and everything is going crazy. He I think what he
Speaker 1: did is he he hopped a ride with an ambulance
Speaker 1: that was heading towards the towers. Traffic was so bad.
Speaker 1: I think it took him like six hours to get there. No,
Speaker 1: he somehow managed. I think he burrowed or stole the
Speaker 1: bike to get the last minute distance there. He gets
Speaker 1: the apartment building, but he can't get in to the
Speaker 1: building itself because the electricity is off and the automatic
Speaker 1: locks on the door locked. So he's, you know, he's
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what to do. He sees somebody
Speaker 1: has a candle burning in a window, uses a flashlight,
Speaker 1: gets their attention, gets that neighbor to open the window,
Speaker 1: and shouts at him and says, can you go to
Speaker 1: this apartment, knock on the doors or anybody home. That
Speaker 1: person goes and nobody's there, comes back to the window
Speaker 1: and says, nobody's there. At that point, Ron's got no choice.
Speaker 1: He's got to find somewhere else to stay, and so
Speaker 1: he went and he stayed with a friend that night.
Speaker 1: The next morning or the next day, he comes home.
Speaker 1: This is now the twelfth of September. He can get
Speaker 1: into the building this time powers back on, So he
Speaker 1: gets into the building. He goes to his apartment. He
Speaker 1: walks in and nobody's there, And it's obvious that nobody's
Speaker 1: been there because the windows had been left open, and
Speaker 1: the apartment is full of soot, so it would be
Speaker 1: very obvious somebody's home because there would be footprints. The
Speaker 1: only footprints in the place are from their cats, two
Speaker 1: little kittens who were obviously having a high old time
Speaker 1: in the dust. Apparently they're probably a little hungry the
Speaker 1: time he got home. Probably, so that is the end
Speaker 1: of what we know officially about Sneeha. She was seen
Speaker 1: on the tenth. As of the eleventh, nobody has seen her,
Speaker 1: and as of the twelveth, we've got confirmation she's not whome.
Speaker 1: Probably goes without saying. Ron, her husband and her family,
Speaker 1: they go nuts. They want to find her. They're putting
Speaker 1: flyers up all over the city. I think they printed
Speaker 1: five thousand flyers with her name and information and photos
Speaker 1: on it. They're plastering those all over. But of course
Speaker 1: those kind of flyers are all over at that time
Speaker 1: because people are trying to find everybody that they can't locate. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Ron then sees, wait, there's reporters everywhere. I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: talk to the reporters and I'm going to get their
Speaker 1: help to get this story out there, to find my wife.
Speaker 1: Except he quickly discovers that the reporters are not interested
Speaker 1: as soon as they find out that she went missing
Speaker 1: on the tenth. So he's kind of frustrated, and he
Speaker 1: gets a bright idea. He calls snee Hans brother John,
Speaker 1: and he says, hey, John talked to the reporters, but
Speaker 1: don't tell him what day she went missing. As a
Speaker 1: totally off topic aside, what kind of jerk parents are like, Okay, daughter,
Speaker 1: we're going to name you. See you can beat John. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: she had a very traditional name. Come on, guy, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I was wondering about that too. It's possible
Speaker 1: that he was born in the US, he was younger
Speaker 1: than her, and then possibly changed his name to John. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know what their ages are relative to each other.
Speaker 1: I know she was born in India. He may have
Speaker 1: been born in the States. It's hard to say. Or,
Speaker 1: as Joe said, he may have just gone by John.
Speaker 1: But sorry this well yeah, I know. But but the
Speaker 1: thing is, the plan didn't go according to plan, because
Speaker 1: as soon as John got on camera, he took the
Speaker 1: story even farther and told the reporters that on the
Speaker 1: morning of the eleventh, he was on the phone with
Speaker 1: his sister when American Airlines eleven hit the tower, the
Speaker 1: North Tower, and she said, I've got to go, I've
Speaker 1: got to help, which is what a doctor would do.
Speaker 1: And she hung up, and he said that was the
Speaker 1: last time that he talked to her. Totally not true.
Speaker 1: A little bit of embellishment there, but understandable. Genuinely not true, right, genuinely,
Speaker 1: not just kidding. Well, later on he admitted it was
Speaker 1: not true. But it backfired so badly it blew up
Speaker 1: in their faces. Because, of course, the New York Police
Speaker 1: Department won't do anything. I mean, they're inundated with a
Speaker 1: whole mass of work to take care of now, but
Speaker 1: they won't look into it because he said she was
Speaker 1: she went to the towers. At the time, Ron had
Speaker 1: filed a missing person's report forcedney Haw. There were nine
Speaker 1: thousand missing person reports in New York after after everything happened,
Speaker 1: one there was bad reporting in the police department. They
Speaker 1: found out multiple people were listed multiple times, all this stuff,
Speaker 1: and there was a few fraudulent cases of missing person reports,
Speaker 1: but they didn't do anything because they just presumed that
Speaker 1: she was in the tower. Yeah, I mean, not only fraudulent,
Speaker 1: but also, you know, you have all of those people
Speaker 1: who freak out there, you know, in Oregon and their
Speaker 1: daughters in New York City, and the towers collapsed, and
Speaker 1: they couldn't get ahold of her the three times they
Speaker 1: called on the exact day, within you know, two hours,
Speaker 1: even though they heard that the phones were jammed and
Speaker 1: she must be dead somewhere. So she's you know, and
Speaker 1: it turns out she calls him an hour later and said,
Speaker 1: my mom, Dad, I'm I'm fine, And they just don't
Speaker 1: bother to call and get her taken off. Yeah, it's understandable.
Speaker 1: It's total panic. Oh god, yeah, I mean total panic mode.
Speaker 1: I get why people do it it, but unfortunately it
Speaker 1: made things so much harder for the NYPD. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: the family they know or they they believe at this
Speaker 1: point that Snea is not in the ruins of the
Speaker 1: North Tower or the South Tower. The family went ahead
Speaker 1: and they hired a private investigator to try and figure
Speaker 1: out all of Sneeha's actions on that day. On the
Speaker 1: day of the tenth, they hired a guy by the
Speaker 1: name of Ken Gallant. He was formerly of the FBI,
Speaker 1: and he did he did a ton of legwork and
Speaker 1: trying to find her, and he did. He found some
Speaker 1: great stuff, but I was also a little surprised. He
Speaker 1: recommended to the family who then flew this person in
Speaker 1: from Pennsylvania a psychic, which question to me, it raised
Speaker 1: a little bit of a red flag on him. But
Speaker 1: but what he did find is he was able to
Speaker 1: track down video footage of her. There are are two
Speaker 1: different pieces of video of her from that day after
Speaker 1: she left the apartment, one of which, as we talked
Speaker 1: about just briefly before, is the video of her century
Speaker 1: twenty one where she's shopping shot when when she's on
Speaker 1: the video she's in the coat section trying on different coats.
Speaker 1: There is also a video from the inside of the
Speaker 1: apartment building's entry on the elevens not confirmed her right,
Speaker 1: It is not confirmed her. What it is is the
Speaker 1: sun is shining through the windows in the entry enough
Speaker 1: that is bleaching out. According to what they what Gallant
Speaker 1: and Ron are saying, to the point that they can't
Speaker 1: get a lot of details. They see a woman. She's
Speaker 1: got the same hairstyle, about the same build, appears to
Speaker 1: be wearing kind of the same outfit, and has the
Speaker 1: same mannerisms as Sneak huh, but they can't confirm arm that.
Speaker 1: But this person, this woman walks up to the elevator,
Speaker 1: pushes the button, waits a minute, and then turns around
Speaker 1: and walks out of the building. The time stamp on
Speaker 1: that video roughly corresponds to when the North Tower was hit,
Speaker 1: So it's in a way it supports the idea that
Speaker 1: she ran to the tower after everything happened. Yeah, except
Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily her because she wasn't carrying any bags
Speaker 1: where she should have been carrying bags, So she she
Speaker 1: still hadn't brought home all the stuff that she thought.
Speaker 1: That is true if she had come straight from the store,
Speaker 1: but we're talking well plus hours later, she might have
Speaker 1: left them somewhere. I totally get where you're going with that, Joe,
Speaker 1: Is that there's this piece where if she bought all
Speaker 1: this stuff at Century one, where's it at? And this
Speaker 1: person theoretically should be carrying those same articles that were
Speaker 1: purchased thing. Well, unless you know, she was kind of
Speaker 1: she was a young woman, right, she was in her twenties.
Speaker 1: She was thirty one, I believe. Yeah, so you know,
Speaker 1: you go out because she would have gone out right
Speaker 1: if she had stayed at somebody's house. She probably was
Speaker 1: out late. So you go out, you wake up next morning,
Speaker 1: you're kind of hungover, and you just stay to your
Speaker 1: brother or a friend who you see all the time.
Speaker 1: You say, I'm gonna go home. You just I'll get
Speaker 1: this stuff later from you next time I see you
Speaker 1: or whatever. I'm just gonna walk home, try and clear
Speaker 1: my mind or whatever. You make it back to your
Speaker 1: apartment and you don't have bags. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that's totally reasonable. That's entirely plausible. Or maybe she was
Speaker 1: buying it for a gift, or you know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of reasons she could not have that stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And as as far as her turning and leaving about
Speaker 1: one that the plane hit the tower, it doesn't. That
Speaker 1: also doesn't really point towards it being see how either,
Speaker 1: But anybody, anybody hearing that, yeah, enormous noise would go
Speaker 1: outside to see what it was. Yes, And so if
Speaker 1: she hears that a normal stoys and she goes outside,
Speaker 1: she sees what, gets an idea what's going on. Based
Speaker 1: on her training, we can presume that she would have
Speaker 1: run to assist. It seems like though that the investigator
Speaker 1: and Ron how large a apartment complex. Are we talking
Speaker 1: like thousands of people? Hundreds of people? Do you know?
Speaker 1: It seems like the sort of thing you would circulate
Speaker 1: and say, hey, is this you to rule other people out?
Speaker 1: Here's here's the odd bit. The odd bit is that
Speaker 1: the p I did all of his work and he
Speaker 1: gave a report to Ron. Ron won't release that report.
Speaker 1: So this this this footage of this woman in the
Speaker 1: entry I I can't nobody's seen it. You can't see
Speaker 1: the video, you can't see stills from it because he's
Speaker 1: kind of under lock and key. It's that's odd because
Speaker 1: it's not like he owns it. He paid for it,
Speaker 1: so he still doesn't own it. Well, he doesn't own
Speaker 1: the footage, but I'm sure that by the time all
Speaker 1: this came out to the apartment building probably didn't have
Speaker 1: the footage anymore. But again, this is another thing that
Speaker 1: I'm going to call out as a red flag. This
Speaker 1: stands out to me is a really odd bit of information. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there there must have been something kind of bad in
Speaker 1: that report. If he didn't want to release it would
Speaker 1: lead me to think that, ye, let's let's keep moving
Speaker 1: on down with the events were still moving kind of
Speaker 1: a chronological order of what goes on with the story. Initially,
Speaker 1: Snea was listed as one of the victims of the
Speaker 1: World Trade Center collapse. There was, but because there was
Speaker 1: no evidence to substantiate that in terms of nobody could
Speaker 1: physically say they saw her go there and they didn't
Speaker 1: find a body, she was removed from that list in
Speaker 1: January of two thousand and four, and the law in
Speaker 1: New York says that the date of a person's death
Speaker 1: will be set at three is from the last time
Speaker 1: they were seen alive when they go missing, which means
Speaker 1: that officially, after she had been removed from the list,
Speaker 1: her date of having died was September two thousand and four.
Speaker 1: Ron appealed the decision. He tried to keep her on
Speaker 1: the list, but there was another judge denied that appeal
Speaker 1: in November of two thousand and five. That prevented him
Speaker 1: from having access to the Victims Compensation Fund, which had
Speaker 1: been set up to help people whose family members had
Speaker 1: been killed, you know, for from a financial perspective. According
Speaker 1: to to Ron, he wanted access to that fund because
Speaker 1: he wanted to set up a memorial fund in his
Speaker 1: wife's name. Here's the thing, She's a thirty one year
Speaker 1: old woman who's going to be a doctor, very young,
Speaker 1: high paid profession He stood together about three to four
Speaker 1: million dollars. What the heck, I'd do it A happy
Speaker 1: little chunk of money. That's a yeah, that's a that's
Speaker 1: a sizeable bit of cash. Um. He never he never
Speaker 1: got anything out of the victims compens or the Yeah,
Speaker 1: victims Compensation fund in two thousand eight. A panel of
Speaker 1: judges overturned the ruling in two thousand and five and
Speaker 1: changed her official date of death back to September eleventh,
Speaker 1: two thousand and one. But by that time, of course,
Speaker 1: the fund had long since closed taking applications, so he
Speaker 1: couldn't get anything from it. According to Ron, the money
Speaker 1: didn't matter. What he wanted was his wife's name to
Speaker 1: be recognized among the victims. So she is now officially
Speaker 1: listed as one of the two thousand, seven hundred fifty
Speaker 1: three people who died that day, not counting hijackers. This
Speaker 1: is this is American citizens overly. Yeah. So so he
Speaker 1: at least got her on that. There's an at the
Speaker 1: memorial her name is listed. It's interesting that he said
Speaker 1: that he just wanted her name on the list, even
Speaker 1: though they got a private investigator and none of them
Speaker 1: really believed that she was in the rebel Initially. I've
Speaker 1: said it before and I'm gonna say it again. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of flags in this story. Yeah, a lot
Speaker 1: of things that I have to raise an eyebrow, and
Speaker 1: I I have I had a listed home as I
Speaker 1: was going through my research, like, wait, that didn't get
Speaker 1: checked off? That didn't get checked off? This is circled
Speaker 1: in red mark er. What's going on here? But we're
Speaker 1: now going to take a bit of a turn in
Speaker 1: our story. Okay, yep. So officially, the NYPD they think
Speaker 1: that she died in the towers collapse kind of, after
Speaker 1: everything settles down, they do their own investigation. The NYPD
Speaker 1: in their investigation, they per sended some details about snee
Speaker 1: Haw that aren't flattering, and her family does not like
Speaker 1: and they constantly, constantly are denying and putting down. According
Speaker 1: to the NYPD, she had a drinking problem and she
Speaker 1: possibly was leading a double life. What's what's a drinking problem? Though?
Speaker 1: I just I mean that sincerely. I mean that, for instance,
Speaker 1: a woman of my age, technically, if you consume three
Speaker 1: or more alcoholic beverages, a week, you over consume alcohol. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know a single person who drinks that's my
Speaker 1: age that drinks that little. I just don't, you know,
Speaker 1: And so I think it's be totally reasonable if I
Speaker 1: went missing for some reason that, you know, the Portland
Speaker 1: police could say, well, she did have a drinking problem,
Speaker 1: because I drink way more than that, you know. So
Speaker 1: I don't know. When they say things like that, I
Speaker 1: have a hard time. I usually take it with a
Speaker 1: pretty huge grain of salt because if they're like, well,
Speaker 1: she was at the bar four times a week and
Speaker 1: had a two shots every night, you know, like, well, okay,
Speaker 1: that's people can do that and be totally reasonably healthy.
Speaker 1: That it's very funny that you say that, because I've
Speaker 1: I've always thought my fiance drinks cider or you know,
Speaker 1: mixed drinks, but she'll have one or two a week.
Speaker 1: And it always was weird to me when I would
Speaker 1: go to the fridge and I'd grab a beer and
Speaker 1: I'd say, hey, honey, you want to drink or something.
Speaker 1: She said, no, I'm fine, And at first, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I got used to it. She doesn't doesn't drink that much.
Speaker 1: But at first I was like, what's this is really weird.
Speaker 1: I am not going to be really that funny if
Speaker 1: you don't have any more to drink. Yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I mean but I think that that's one of the
Speaker 1: things we talked about that sometimes where people say or
Speaker 1: the you know, investigation reveals quote unquote that this person
Speaker 1: had a drinking problem, and I always just kind of
Speaker 1: want to take that with a huge grain of salt.
Speaker 1: Although it does appear that her drinking actually interfered with
Speaker 1: their job at Cabrini. Yeah, well, we'll get into that,
Speaker 1: but I just wanted to mention that for future past
Speaker 1: and current mysteries. Yes, absolutely, good point the NYPD, this
Speaker 1: is this is what one of the things that they're
Speaker 1: using in their investigation to say that she's got that
Speaker 1: problem that we're just talking about is she was told
Speaker 1: in early two thousand and one that her contract her
Speaker 1: internship with Cabrini would not be would not be renewed,
Speaker 1: and the reasons were for tardiness and alcohol related issues. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's fair, all right, Yeah, that that does lead you
Speaker 1: to think maybe there is something going on. Now. She
Speaker 1: did land their job, she got she got another internship
Speaker 1: in internal medicine at St. Vincent's medical Center which was
Speaker 1: on Staten Island, which is what Joe was kind of
Speaker 1: talking about briefly earlier. She does seem like she was smart,
Speaker 1: She had it together. She was a minority female, so
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm honest to god facts. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to sound racist, but Indians are pretty
Speaker 1: damned smart. She seemed to be very intelligent. Regardless of
Speaker 1: her race or sex, she seemed to be intelligent. She
Speaker 1: never had anything in her work reviews that I can
Speaker 1: find saying that she did a poor job, other than
Speaker 1: she had some personal issues, which, let's be honest, who
Speaker 1: doesn't have personal issues? Yeah, but not all of us
Speaker 1: bring it to work. Oh wait, are you saying I'm
Speaker 1: bringing something to the podcast? Up? Crap? All right, Well,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about my liquorice addiction later. Um. Not long
Speaker 1: after she was let go from Cabrini let go, or
Speaker 1: told she wasn't going to be renewed. I'm guessing it's
Speaker 1: after she was no longer there. Read into that. How
Speaker 1: are you want to after she was after she was
Speaker 1: no longer there, she got into a bar fight or
Speaker 1: a fight in a bar, I should say, admitted spending
Speaker 1: the night in jail, which again we've kind of we've
Speaker 1: rationalized a few things so far, so let's rationalize this.
Speaker 1: Who hasn't found out they were getting fired or gotten
Speaker 1: fired and said I'm going to the bar and I'm
Speaker 1: drowning to my sorrows in a glass or seven? Who
Speaker 1: hasn't done that? Why are you too looking at me
Speaker 1: like that? I've never been fired been fired, So yeah,
Speaker 1: I know it's not it's not a it's not a
Speaker 1: good feeling. I'm young's there's still time. I've had very
Speaker 1: few jobs that I quit, but I've had a lot
Speaker 1: of jobs. Okay, well, we're gonna continue on with the
Speaker 1: damning evidence here. Snee Hall also claimed that one night
Speaker 1: while out with co workers, this is again out at
Speaker 1: a bar, and I can't pin down whether what the
Speaker 1: sex of this coworker is, but one of her coworkers
Speaker 1: grabbed her inappropriately. I don't know what that means. Whether
Speaker 1: it was a smack on the bottom or a grab
Speaker 1: on the chest or attempt to kiss, I don't know.
Speaker 1: In fairness, it shouldn't matter, but it does apparently in
Speaker 1: this day and age, Yes it does. If somebody says
Speaker 1: this person touched me inappropriately. That means that they felt
Speaker 1: violated and it should be taken and reported as such.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's just my opinion. Man, I don't I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that I would go actually go to the
Speaker 1: police and and try to get the data to bring
Speaker 1: charges against somebody who produced, which is what she did.
Speaker 1: I guess I might if it were a thing that
Speaker 1: had been happening a lot of time, you know, if
Speaker 1: it were reoccurring, if it you know, if this person
Speaker 1: was grabbing me and grabbing me and I kept saying like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm not into that. Hey I'm not interested. Hey, dude,
Speaker 1: like calm down, back off, or or chick whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: calm down, back off. All right, Seriously, I'm gonna like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna file a complaint next time. That maybe would
Speaker 1: be the progression. But I would also mention that in
Speaker 1: my report say this has been a pattern of behavior.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say this person touched me one time. But
Speaker 1: did she has there any record that she ever ever
Speaker 1: took the complaint to HR? The only the only record
Speaker 1: that I have found is the report that she officially
Speaker 1: filed with place. Well, you wouldn't report it to HR
Speaker 1: if you were out after hours with co workers. It's
Speaker 1: not a workplace incident at that. But I think what
Speaker 1: Joe is getting at is if it was a workplace
Speaker 1: incident like he like you were talking about, then it
Speaker 1: would have been could it could have just been reoccurring
Speaker 1: outside of the workplace. When you know, you go out
Speaker 1: for drinks with coworker once a week or whatever, and
Speaker 1: this guy or girl is always weird and attempting to
Speaker 1: grab you. You wouldn't mention that to HR, there'd be
Speaker 1: no reason to know. But HR can't do anything. If
Speaker 1: somebody's grabby off the grounds, that's that's outside of their
Speaker 1: their realm. They have no jurisdiction. But so she filed
Speaker 1: this complaint finally she did, and the d a's office,
Speaker 1: after reviewing it, dropped the charge and turned around owned
Speaker 1: and they slapped on her a charge of filing a
Speaker 1: false complaint or false report. And they said, you know,
Speaker 1: if you want to admit that this is not really
Speaker 1: what happened, will drop the charge against you. And she
Speaker 1: stood her ground and said, no, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: do that, and she landed herself in jail for another night.
Speaker 1: That's kind of strange that they would lock up in
Speaker 1: jail for a night because I I don't Again, this
Speaker 1: is one of those things where I can't get a
Speaker 1: hold of the court records and all I've got is
Speaker 1: the family's accounting of it. But the point is, according
Speaker 1: to the NYPD, once that all went down, so we've
Speaker 1: got the night of the inappropriate grab and then she
Speaker 1: gets in trouble for it all. She continued to go
Speaker 1: out and drink, but she started frequency frequenting lesbian bars.
Speaker 1: Makes sense to me, Well, there's I I don't think
Speaker 1: that that really matters much. I mean, her family has said, well,
Speaker 1: of course she went. This is where I get the
Speaker 1: impression that the grabber was a dude. She was going
Speaker 1: and hanging out bars that were full of women because
Speaker 1: there's no guys there to repeat that scenario. But that yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: she feels safe around other women, so I'll just hang
Speaker 1: out and drink here. Plus some of the better bars
Speaker 1: in New York or lesbian bars, so you know, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean she she went to some they listened them
Speaker 1: off and they seemed to be pretty well known. And
Speaker 1: the report that I was reading never been to any
Speaker 1: of those. I've hung out in lesbian bars. I've hung
Speaker 1: out in gay bars. I mean it not in New York. No, No,
Speaker 1: I would be happy to hang out in any bar
Speaker 1: in New York. I still haven't been to New York.
Speaker 1: I want to go to New York, and I still
Speaker 1: haven't gotten to go to New York and hang out
Speaker 1: for a while. This is the real intervention we're going
Speaker 1: to have after the show out. Maybe we should have
Speaker 1: done this show on location so you have an excuse
Speaker 1: to go to New York. There we go sponsors this
Speaker 1: at this point in our story, if we think back
Speaker 1: to when there was that stuff about when she wouldn't
Speaker 1: always come home and she would stay with family members,
Speaker 1: it then comes out that what was happening was that
Speaker 1: stee How was going out and then staying at the
Speaker 1: homes of people that she met in the bar, specifically
Speaker 1: at these gay bars. Ron rationalized it away and said, well, no,
Speaker 1: there was a totally platonic thing. They would hang out
Speaker 1: and talk, they would listen to music all night like
Speaker 1: there was nothing sexual whatsoever going on here. And I
Speaker 1: could see that. But I also have to ask, wait,
Speaker 1: if she's suddenly hanging out, she's having such a good
Speaker 1: time with all of these other women who are also
Speaker 1: into women. Maybe she realizes, wait, I kind of really
Speaker 1: like women. It would also help explain the kind of uh,
Speaker 1: I don't know, symptoms of almost mental anguish that someone
Speaker 1: might exhibit when they are realizing something large about themselves,
Speaker 1: like perhaps questioning their sexuality. And there was she was
Speaker 1: experiencing depression. Yeah, you know, you know you you maybe
Speaker 1: drink more, you get in fights, you exhibit behavior problems
Speaker 1: at work. When you're realizing that this person that you
Speaker 1: thought you were this entire time, you become depressed, you're
Speaker 1: no longer the person you thought you were. Particularly coming
Speaker 1: from um an Indian background or a background that may
Speaker 1: be less welcoming of I would just say it's a
Speaker 1: very culturally rigid, I think a rigid um um. Do
Speaker 1: you know what I'm getting out? I can't think of
Speaker 1: the words here, but it's like you've got to hold
Speaker 1: certain track. Yeah, of course, moray rigid, thank you. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's quite as bad. It's like say Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 1: Oh no, no no. And that's not to say that
Speaker 1: like you know, Indians as a whole, right, It's like
Speaker 1: just like you can't say Americans as a whole. What
Speaker 1: some people are and some people aren't. And you know,
Speaker 1: you never know what what background somebody comes from. There's
Speaker 1: there's unfortunately more here. Of course, there's row mud on
Speaker 1: on this poor woman. There, this this one. Her family
Speaker 1: has fought tooth and nail and denied and denied, denied.
Speaker 1: But according to the NYPD investigators, her brother John caught
Speaker 1: his sister and his then girlfriend in bed together at
Speaker 1: one point. Well, okay, And the fact that they've denied
Speaker 1: it so hard, right, would maybe suggest that they weren't
Speaker 1: okay with her being You know, I think if you
Speaker 1: are a family that's okay with her being gay, you say, well,
Speaker 1: maybe she was, she was, maybe she was experimenting. That
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that she disappeared for any you know, other
Speaker 1: kind of reason than she disappeared. Yeah, No, No, it's
Speaker 1: it's you don't ye like that. Well, that's the thing
Speaker 1: is that John has said He's like, uh, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I never said that. I never actually even talked to
Speaker 1: the investigator who put that on paper. Have they found
Speaker 1: the quote unquote girlfriend at the time. Uh yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the mother of his child and they got married, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: I got married. Did they talk to her again? Seems
Speaker 1: like that'd be a pretty straightforward. This is the frustrating
Speaker 1: part of the story that I've already said before, is
Speaker 1: that so many of the players have been insulated and
Speaker 1: kept away from the media and from people who are
Speaker 1: asking questions. And the one person, the investigator who got
Speaker 1: in there, we can't see what he found. So that
Speaker 1: that that that's the part that drives me nuts there. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe it's maybe it's such innocuous stuff, but they're just
Speaker 1: so afraid to let anything come out. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't either. But regardless the trouble she was having
Speaker 1: when she was at Cabrini, that the tardiness and the
Speaker 1: alcohol related issues that followed her to her new job.
Speaker 1: One of the things that she had to do when
Speaker 1: she was at St. Vincent's she had to meet with
Speaker 1: a substance abuse counselor. She actually got suspended for missing
Speaker 1: an appointment with that counselor. I wonder if they gave
Speaker 1: her the job at St. Vincent's on condition that she
Speaker 1: work on her problems. That could very well be it
Speaker 1: that she would say, Hey, I got fired from my
Speaker 1: other job because of these things, and I'm really wanted
Speaker 1: to work on them, and you know, being up front, honest,
Speaker 1: and they appreciated that, and they said, all right, well
Speaker 1: if you do counseling, then will or she didn't hide
Speaker 1: it and they called the other other place. They're like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, no, no, this is why we let her
Speaker 1: go because you know, hospitals talked to each other. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that guy killed like two dozen people. Oh yeah, we're
Speaker 1: not going to hire that the angel of death. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're not. They're not going to do that. But but
Speaker 1: I mean, regardless, it's so far the last ten fifteen
Speaker 1: minutes has been super uplifting. Shall we get into theories? Um? Yeah,
Speaker 1: why not? Theory number one, she ran away, that's a theory.
Speaker 1: The circus not that the theory goes that she she
Speaker 1: ran away from her life. She she wasn't happy. Is
Speaker 1: we've kind of had a discussion here so far, is
Speaker 1: that she wasn't happy and maybe the drinking and staying
Speaker 1: out at night note without her husband may have been
Speaker 1: a symptom of that, and the possible depression that we've
Speaker 1: touched on briefly might have been another symptom of that
Speaker 1: as well. Uh. There there there are bits that say
Speaker 1: that the marriage wasn't all roses and things between the
Speaker 1: couple weren't all great. I was gonna say, We've rationalized
Speaker 1: a number of things so far, and one of the
Speaker 1: things I can say is that I don't know any RelA,
Speaker 1: aationship that is perfect, and people who say they have
Speaker 1: a perfect relationship are in denial of something. I mean,
Speaker 1: people are people, and there's always going to be some friction.
Speaker 1: The other thing is I've talked about before with well
Speaker 1: things seem to be good, is who's telling the story,
Speaker 1: Ron and her family. So we have one source of
Speaker 1: the information. The sheer coincidence of her deciding to run
Speaker 1: away the day before the World Trade Center attack. It's
Speaker 1: just too convenient for me, it's too perfect. Well, don't
Speaker 1: you know it's not necessarily coincidence, though she might have
Speaker 1: been planning on running away and then and then eleven
Speaker 1: happens and she realizes, holy crap, I got a perfect excuse.
Speaker 1: It doesn't even have to be a planning like a
Speaker 1: you know, months in advanced situation. It could just be
Speaker 1: she sees the thing happening and realizes I could disappear
Speaker 1: true and it would explain right. They found all of
Speaker 1: her stuff was still in the apartment. Everything you know,
Speaker 1: your credit cards, her glasses, her ID or passport, her
Speaker 1: driver's license and passports, everything was left behind. That well, okay,
Speaker 1: I don't know why her driver's license would be left
Speaker 1: behind if she was out drinking. But I can't see
Speaker 1: how you would go shopping without your idea. You would
Speaker 1: need your idea and credit cards. So I think it's
Speaker 1: probably not true that they were left at the apartment.
Speaker 1: But okay, fine, even if they were even all the
Speaker 1: better to disappear if you have some cash that you
Speaker 1: got who knows how, but you've got some cash and
Speaker 1: you just walk away from your life. You have some cash,
Speaker 1: you managed to get out someplace, and you know, I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't know do something. I've obviously never tried to
Speaker 1: plan a disappearance, So I would think that if you
Speaker 1: were planning to take off, you would maybe do a
Speaker 1: little noodling on the internet. Yeah, I think I help
Speaker 1: change your identity and stuff like that if you were planning. Again,
Speaker 1: Not that key part race that she wasn't just a
Speaker 1: runaway of advantage, right, Yes, A great circumstances to take
Speaker 1: advantage because of the the p I ken Glaude. He
Speaker 1: said that he went through her or We've been told
Speaker 1: that he went through her computer and found nothing in
Speaker 1: her history on the computer to indicate that now she
Speaker 1: might have been savvy enough to wipe her browser history
Speaker 1: a different computer. Yeah, do it at work occasionally or
Speaker 1: the library. Yeah, yeah, I mean there's there's ways that
Speaker 1: it can be done, but but none of this stuff
Speaker 1: is there. The thing, and I know that you're probably
Speaker 1: gonna jump on me a little bit for this, Devin,
Speaker 1: but the thing that she did that makes me think
Speaker 1: that maybe she wasn't intending to leave is that she
Speaker 1: had gone and spent the day with her mother several
Speaker 1: days prior to that, and when she was with her mother,
Speaker 1: she had said this was great, and why are we
Speaker 1: doing this more often? Like this was a great day. Well,
Speaker 1: that's that's one of the problems I have with this theory.
Speaker 1: I don't think she ran away because it appears to
Speaker 1: me that she was close to her family, and if
Speaker 1: even if she had a rocky marriage, I don't think
Speaker 1: she'd abandoned her family. But the other the other thing
Speaker 1: is there's there's always a high bar for me and
Speaker 1: this whole, this whole thing about people disappearing, it depends
Speaker 1: on how much you're leaving behind, and she's spent years
Speaker 1: and a lot of money getting a medical credential, which
Speaker 1: she would be throwing away. Yeah, so that's why I
Speaker 1: don't believe it. I agree with you, But I will
Speaker 1: just say that people get sentimental when they're planning to leave, right, So,
Speaker 1: you know, saying spending time with your mom and having
Speaker 1: not done that a whole lot, and just saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I just wish we would do this more often doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily mean also, I'm not planning to run away. But
Speaker 1: I'm with Joe on this one. I don't think she
Speaker 1: ran away, all right. Well, that then makes us go
Speaker 1: to the next theory. The next theory is that, in fact,
Speaker 1: she did die at the World Trade Center. Yeah. Like
Speaker 1: I said before, the story of her running into the
Speaker 1: World Trade Center was made up by her brother. There
Speaker 1: is the footage of her in the apartment building entry
Speaker 1: at about the time that the plane hit. That kind
Speaker 1: of corroborates that maybe she did go and try and
Speaker 1: help and she was killed by falling debris or somehow
Speaker 1: got into the lobby of the building and was killed
Speaker 1: when it was when it collapsed, or ran into the
Speaker 1: south tower. I mean, you know, yeah, there were. There
Speaker 1: was a couple of minutes in between, at least, right,
Speaker 1: I don't I'm sorry, I don't remember. I was young,
Speaker 1: but there was time in between. So if the one
Speaker 1: tower is burning, you run into the other one to
Speaker 1: help people evacuate from it, and then that gets hit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or I don't think she would have run into the
Speaker 1: other one, because at the time, when there was only
Speaker 1: one plane it smacked into the towers, everybody thought it
Speaker 1: was an accident. It wasn't until the second plane hit
Speaker 1: that everybody everybody started saying w T. Yeah, Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's a very good point. There's also the possibility in
Speaker 1: this theory that she did stay out somewhere else and
Speaker 1: stayed at somebody else's house that night or somebody else's
Speaker 1: place the night prior, and was walking home. So they
Speaker 1: lived only a couple of blocks away from the World
Speaker 1: Trade Center, So it's possible that she was an innocent
Speaker 1: bystander when the first plane struck and got hit by
Speaker 1: debris and then eventually buried when the tower came down
Speaker 1: entirely or there. I'm sure there was a Starbucks in
Speaker 1: the No, I mean genuinely there there were, there were
Speaker 1: things in the tower too, right, So it's possible that
Speaker 1: she just happened to be in there doing something on
Speaker 1: her way home. The century twenty one was cross street,
Speaker 1: and I've seen I will admit I didn't dive into
Speaker 1: this because it didn't key in until just this moment.
Speaker 1: Is that there were people that could stay across the
Speaker 1: street from the World Trade Center. So maybe she stayed
Speaker 1: over there somehow, And I don't know how that plays out.
Speaker 1: I can't even begin to fathom how that plays out.
Speaker 1: But maybe somehow then she comes out and then whatever
Speaker 1: scenario happens happens. This is this is entirely possible as well.
Speaker 1: And I think there are some good statistics to support
Speaker 1: this theory as well. There are there actually there. They're
Speaker 1: really disheartening. But but here's I'll lay at a couple
Speaker 1: of bullet points. All of the two thousand, six hundred
Speaker 1: and six people that were killed in the World Trade
Speaker 1: Center collapse, so that's not counting people who were on
Speaker 1: the planes, there were about sixteen, it was six. About
Speaker 1: six people were never identified. The remains were never IDENTI
Speaker 1: fun there are over ten thousand tissue and bone samples
Speaker 1: that have been collected that haven't been identified, as in,
Speaker 1: they haven't been matched to a known victim somebody that
Speaker 1: was in the towers at the time, So that's a
Speaker 1: huge number of people. The other thing is that the
Speaker 1: City of New York has in their possession at to
Speaker 1: this day about two thirds of the jewelry that was
Speaker 1: collected from the site. When the fires were raging, it
Speaker 1: was about it was over two thousand degrees in the rubble.
Speaker 1: Most things like metal bands, like gold and silver, those
Speaker 1: things are gonna melt, but diamonds and hard stone like
Speaker 1: that would not. So those those items were found, and
Speaker 1: some of them have been returned to family who have
Speaker 1: been able to provide documentation saying yes, that was my
Speaker 1: wife's diamond or my husband's diamond, or whatever the case
Speaker 1: may be. That means that it's entirely possible that we
Speaker 1: that they may be able to figure out that she
Speaker 1: was in there based on the diamonds from her rings,
Speaker 1: her earrings, and she had a necklace, so those things
Speaker 1: could have survived the temperatures, and the family has provided
Speaker 1: the documentation to the City of New York. But it's
Speaker 1: really really difficult to to get confirmation of but it's
Speaker 1: it's still possible, still possible that maybe I need, but
Speaker 1: it's very tough. Well, that's the thing about it is
Speaker 1: that there's only so many ways to cut a diamond,
Speaker 1: and so matching up a diamond from one of her
Speaker 1: pieces of jewelry was the diamonds that they find in there,
Speaker 1: it's kind of conclusive, especially if it was you know,
Speaker 1: a necklace set from k is right. How many women
Speaker 1: have that necklace set from? You know? That's true coming
Speaker 1: But yeah, certainly like the diamond from her engagement ring
Speaker 1: should have been more distinctive, but that would require a
Speaker 1: serial number somehow etched on it, which I don't think
Speaker 1: they don't know. But but you get, I know about
Speaker 1: a diamond. You nobody get angry at me for buying
Speaker 1: a blood diamond, but about a diamond. And I got
Speaker 1: the report on it, and it's got all a specifics
Speaker 1: listed on it. But here's the thing. If that diamond
Speaker 1: is then in a giant fire and is being hit
Speaker 1: by rubble that is tons and tons of stuff, it
Speaker 1: may not be recognizable to that report. Also they probably have.
Speaker 1: This is super depressing, but probably there are thousands of diamonds.
Speaker 1: I mean, even if you just say half of the
Speaker 1: people that were killed in the World Trade Center attacks
Speaker 1: where women that still is you know, over two thousand
Speaker 1: people or sorry, over a thousand diamonds that could have
Speaker 1: been found in the rubble. The fact that you can
Speaker 1: think it's in the order of pieces of identifiable jewelry
Speaker 1: and that's insane To ask them to look an examine
Speaker 1: every single one of them and try and match it
Speaker 1: to one. That's insanity. Yeah, no, I mean I'll look. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It actually surprises me that some company that specializes in
Speaker 1: diamonds this is a marketing pr bit. And this is
Speaker 1: gonna sound disgusting as soon as I say it, but
Speaker 1: for great publicities say we're going to donate our services
Speaker 1: and we're going to document the characteristics of every stone
Speaker 1: that they have, and then we're going to try and
Speaker 1: match them to it. That's a great pit of pr
Speaker 1: that's also a huge service to the families. But it's
Speaker 1: companies do that stuff because well it's truistic, but it's
Speaker 1: also great p off. Actually, if you if you just
Speaker 1: took all the diamonds that you found it sort of
Speaker 1: in my way and just say, okay, what are you
Speaker 1: looking for? Were you looking for a one carrot diamond. Okay,
Speaker 1: and here's the one carrot diamonds. Let's look, let's how
Speaker 1: to look. See. I'm pretty sure that all of the
Speaker 1: really obvious ones the very easy to identify. That that
Speaker 1: third that were identified, they're probably easy to figure out
Speaker 1: after that. The rest of them were just so nondescript.
Speaker 1: You know, you've got one carrots and three quarter carrots
Speaker 1: and all these little stones. At that point, it's a
Speaker 1: needle in a haystack. But but I think we've belabored that.
Speaker 1: I'm kind of doubting that she died that died in
Speaker 1: the w TC because simply because she spent the night
Speaker 1: with somebody, and she usually would stay with either her
Speaker 1: cousin or a brother, and she didn't obviously stay with them,
Speaker 1: so she stayed with somebody else. That person never came forward,
Speaker 1: you're right, you know, and so and so she instantly
Speaker 1: spent the night with somebody and forgotten left her bag.
Speaker 1: So you think that that person, at some point or
Speaker 1: another come forward and said, hey, she slept on my
Speaker 1: couch that night, And that person never did. And that
Speaker 1: actually leads us into our next set of theories, because
Speaker 1: our next theory is actually split in half and that
Speaker 1: theory's violently No. The next theory is that she was
Speaker 1: kidnapped and or murdered, or how about sold into slavery. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I didn't even go into that, Joe. I don't really
Speaker 1: want to go into that, to be quite honest with you, sir.
Speaker 1: Here's here's the thing we're going to talk about. The
Speaker 1: century twenty one. There was a clerk there named Sonya Mora.
Speaker 1: She came forward later on, I think it was weeks
Speaker 1: or a month later, and she said that she saw
Speaker 1: sney Huh shopping there, and she she knew her. She'd
Speaker 1: been there many times. Yeah, she was a regular so
Speaker 1: store close to her house, she probably, yeah. And she
Speaker 1: said that she saw her with another woman shopping. She
Speaker 1: said she saw her in the shoe section with this woman,
Speaker 1: which unfortunately didn't have video surveillance, because evidently the shoes
Speaker 1: aren't as important as the jackets section where there was
Speaker 1: surveillance footage. It's harder to steal shoes than jackets, is it, really, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you just put a jacket on and walk out like
Speaker 1: you've been wearing it, shoes, like you have another pair
Speaker 1: of shoes, or oftentimes they'll only put one shoe out
Speaker 1: or uh, they only have the display size out and
Speaker 1: then sitting there and very good point. Yeah, well, it
Speaker 1: appears in the footage has found that she's by herself.
Speaker 1: But according to this report, she was with another woman
Speaker 1: who was described as small, dark skinned, possibly in her
Speaker 1: thirties and possibly Indian. This woman, you know, she might
Speaker 1: have been and she might have known Snea Hob but
Speaker 1: she's never come forward. And and the lead ends right there.
Speaker 1: And it could have been as simple as somebody that
Speaker 1: she had met before at the store, could have been
Speaker 1: a casual acquaintance who she bumped into. It could have
Speaker 1: been some of these she didn't know and just sat
Speaker 1: there and had a conversation about aren't they shoes great?
Speaker 1: And the clerk immediately assumed that they knew each other
Speaker 1: the same and they look kind of the same. Yes,
Speaker 1: so there's there's all kinds of stuff. But if if
Speaker 1: this is true, this woman never came forward, so we
Speaker 1: don't we don't know anything about her. Well, yeah, and
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I had a lot of random
Speaker 1: thoughts and her ideas as I was going through this story.
Speaker 1: And one thing that I've never been able to find,
Speaker 1: it's a picture of her mother and we don't know
Speaker 1: what's in the tense of their two hour online conversation.
Speaker 1: I would imagine this would have come out in the
Speaker 1: police report. But it's plausible. I mean, I'm I have
Speaker 1: to wonder, did they say, let's go to the century.
Speaker 1: It just seems unlikely that her mother, the mother of
Speaker 1: a thirty something your old woman, would be described as
Speaker 1: looking like she was in her thirties as well. Sorry,
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of stereotypes for people saying I can't
Speaker 1: tell one from the other. An age age is kind
Speaker 1: of hard to tell sometimes. I mean, I know women
Speaker 1: that I work with who are of Asian descent, and
Speaker 1: you know, the first time I met her, I was like,
Speaker 1: she's must be one in her mid thirties. No, she's
Speaker 1: in her mid fifties. I mean, some people age differently,
Speaker 1: that's true, but that would be a startling. I mean,
Speaker 1: to look like you're the age that your child is
Speaker 1: is very It's it's not I understand, I agree, but
Speaker 1: I would say that it's highly unlikely. No, I will
Speaker 1: not disagree with that, but I just I couldn't help
Speaker 1: but think of that. The other The other thing is, though,
Speaker 1: is it couldn't have been her mother, because her mother
Speaker 1: would have said something, absolutely have something. I think in
Speaker 1: a heartbeat she would have said something. Again, this is
Speaker 1: one of those things that just popped into my head
Speaker 1: and I had to ask. Yeah, it's it's hard to
Speaker 1: say what a relationship, if anything, to this woman was,
Speaker 1: And it's hard to say they were just like, you know,
Speaker 1: two people who just chatted for thirty seconds, and it
Speaker 1: could have been as simple as that. But let's move
Speaker 1: to the other half of she was kidnapped slash murdered. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible that she was just the victim of
Speaker 1: a random murder. She was known to go to a bar,
Speaker 1: whether it was a bar that was of men and
Speaker 1: women or women only, and have a drink or several drinks.
Speaker 1: And it's possible that she sat down next to someone
Speaker 1: female or male, who lured away from the bar, or
Speaker 1: who randomly followed her home and attacked her. She could
Speaker 1: have been unfaithful and went home with somebody who was
Speaker 1: capable of murder. I mean, these things are entirely possible.
Speaker 1: But the odd part of that is that her body
Speaker 1: never showed up. And we've we've had a lot of
Speaker 1: conversations recording this podcast about how hard it is to
Speaker 1: really do a good job of hiding a body. It's
Speaker 1: New York. It's full of dark, cubby holes where you
Speaker 1: can stuff things that don't show up for years. I
Speaker 1: get that, but most people who kill aren't that good
Speaker 1: at thinking ahead, especially in a time when I mean
Speaker 1: it seems like the city was being pretty scoured for bodies,
Speaker 1: not you know, World Trades cent are notwithstanding there are
Speaker 1: all those you know, nine thousand missing people reported. The
Speaker 1: NYPD is going to go out and be like, all right, well,
Speaker 1: I guess we'll check every dumpster today, you know, I
Speaker 1: guess we'll check every Are you talking about checking every
Speaker 1: dumpster in the city because of just no, well, I'm
Speaker 1: not because of the terrorist attacks necessarily, but to help
Speaker 1: try to determine if the people that were reported were
Speaker 1: actually in the World Trade Centers or they you know,
Speaker 1: we're drunk asleep on the court. You know, last time
Speaker 1: I saw Joe, he was at jones E's bar and
Speaker 1: he was talking to this ruffian and then I didn't
Speaker 1: see him against So they're gonna go to Jones's bar
Speaker 1: and they're going to rifle through the dumpster in the
Speaker 1: back just to check. And I don't you know, that
Speaker 1: just comes from what makes sense to me is that
Speaker 1: that's how you whittle something like that down. That's how
Speaker 1: you come up with the accurate number, is you prove
Speaker 1: that the other people who you kind of pursue all
Speaker 1: avenues of people being reported missing. So you're doing probably
Speaker 1: more investigation than typical. You're going to run into bodies
Speaker 1: more frequently, you would think, you would think. Yeah, But
Speaker 1: also I can see the total sit they were stretched thin,
Speaker 1: and it's totally possible that I actually have a feeling
Speaker 1: that that is more accurate. They were stretched So but
Speaker 1: you can also there are ways to get rid of bodies,
Speaker 1: and there really are, there are, but not everybody knows
Speaker 1: how to do that. And I get if this is true,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be kind of a crime of opportunity rather
Speaker 1: than a crime of planning. Crime of opportunity usually ends
Speaker 1: up being messy and leaving all kinds of clues. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: it's certainly, you know what you would think that somebody,
Speaker 1: if we wanted to say, murder her, would just have
Speaker 1: murdered her and left the body to be found exactly.
Speaker 1: But you know, supposing a murdered her statutes. The body
Speaker 1: behind the bush goes away. And this is remember they
Speaker 1: lived in the battery. They live very close to the water,
Speaker 1: very close to the docks, and so you know, I go,
Speaker 1: you go away, you find you find a bout of
Speaker 1: change in way it's kind back, you know, and wait
Speaker 1: to buy it down and just pitch her off a
Speaker 1: pier and never be found again. I mean not for years. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I I totally get where you're going. It's just it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem that likely to me. No, not really. I
Speaker 1: mean that that that seems to in for a lot
Speaker 1: of planning, and especially in the aftermath of the World
Speaker 1: Trade Center events. Let's say, okay, let's just run down
Speaker 1: that out that that rabbit hole for a minute. You
Speaker 1: kill somebody and you got them, you got the body
Speaker 1: in your apartment, and you're trying to figure out how
Speaker 1: to get it to the docks. And then a plane
Speaker 1: flies into a freaking building and the city is a zoo.
Speaker 1: How are you going to sneak around with a body
Speaker 1: rolled up in a rug? To use the the old
Speaker 1: mob joke, I mean, that's that's really not as easy
Speaker 1: to do because everybody's looking at everything. That's going on
Speaker 1: and they're all wigged out, said, that would be the
Speaker 1: one time you could just you could actually, you know,
Speaker 1: throw a body over your shoulder in the fireman's carry
Speaker 1: and and be going down the streets saying, oh my god,
Speaker 1: she's hurt really bad. I got to get to the hospital.
Speaker 1: You could do that. Yeah, observation that really creeps. It
Speaker 1: might actually be a sher coincidence, and maybe she was
Speaker 1: murdered and then and then stuffed in a dumpster at
Speaker 1: the World Trade Center just by shier coincidence. Like keep
Speaker 1: you know, trying to hold back from saying something like, well,
Speaker 1: it's also not entirely impossible that she was lord and
Speaker 1: murdered in the World Trades I mean the huge, huge
Speaker 1: buildings with lots and lots of offices. If somebody were
Speaker 1: you know, if she met somebody in that area and
Speaker 1: they worked there and they said, all right, sweet, let's
Speaker 1: go back to my you know, let's go to my
Speaker 1: office and do the hanky panky, and one thing like
Speaker 1: to another. I mean, it's not impossible. It's not probable,
Speaker 1: but it's not impossible. And that's that's the hard part.
Speaker 1: It's not impossible. Let's go to what I'm gonna say,
Speaker 1: is a completely self made theory. Yeah. I have come
Speaker 1: up with this all of my own because original content.
Speaker 1: It's original content, because nobody else is putting this out there,
Speaker 1: and I don't see this anywhere else. But I'm going
Speaker 1: to say the last theory is that she was killed
Speaker 1: by her husband. The NYPD did investigate Ron and as
Speaker 1: I I've already said several times, all we know about
Speaker 1: his wife is from him and her family. But the
Speaker 1: NYPD looked into him and they ruled him out at
Speaker 1: some point in their investigation. I don't know how. I
Speaker 1: don't know what they had, but there's some there's there's
Speaker 1: more red flags that are coming up. One red flag
Speaker 1: is that there was a call made from their home
Speaker 1: phone at four am on the eleventh to his cell phone.
Speaker 1: He has explained that away as saying, well, I don't
Speaker 1: remember doing it, but I must have got up in
Speaker 1: the middle of the night and checked my voicemail. Now
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people are saying, why would
Speaker 1: you check your voicemail without your cell phone? Well it
Speaker 1: was it was thearly two thousand's. Every phone companies were
Speaker 1: charging you minutes for all usage. Call your voicemail that
Speaker 1: counts against your minutes. So you know, I worked for
Speaker 1: a cell phone company at that point. We used to
Speaker 1: tell people check your voicemail from your own phone to
Speaker 1: save your minutes. So that that's that's kind of understandable.
Speaker 1: I can kind of get that. I can kind of
Speaker 1: get it accept that. What the problem with that is
Speaker 1: is that, you know, I'm trying to put myself back
Speaker 1: into the year two thousand one. You would think you'd
Speaker 1: be able to just look at his cell phone without
Speaker 1: actually dialing anything and tell him telling you I thought
Speaker 1: of that too, I'm not even. I can't even. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's suddenly we're going to branch out into a thousand
Speaker 1: eventualities if we started saying, well, maybe he was out
Speaker 1: of battery, or maybe this was going on, or that
Speaker 1: was maybe they were in a dead spot. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's there's all kinds of things that I've I've kind
Speaker 1: of held back from some of that. I guess I
Speaker 1: will just say that I don't know about you guys,
Speaker 1: but if I wake up in the middle of the
Speaker 1: night worried about my significant other enough at least to
Speaker 1: call my voicemail to be cognizant enough to call my
Speaker 1: voicemail from my home phone to check my voicemail. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna remember that the next morning. You would think, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna just be like, oh, I guess I might
Speaker 1: have called my cell phone voicemail. He gonna remember. Some
Speaker 1: people are different. Keep in mind, though, he got in
Speaker 1: around midnight and he had to get up and leave
Speaker 1: his house at like six or six thirty. So we're
Speaker 1: talking four hours of sleep to then go back sleep
Speaker 1: and sleep for a couple of I mean, I do,
Speaker 1: I do that fairly regularly, I you know. But that's
Speaker 1: and again it's just me, but most people I know,
Speaker 1: I think we'll say things like I woke up in
Speaker 1: the middle of I I was so worried about this person,
Speaker 1: and then I went back to sleep, not even like
Speaker 1: I got out of bed and went on the phone
Speaker 1: and called my voicemail and remembered to not use my
Speaker 1: cell phone and bla bla bla bah. Yeah. So for me,
Speaker 1: that's a it's a red flag a little bit. But
Speaker 1: the other thing is to I have a phone, she
Speaker 1: have a cell phone. I don't know. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know if she had a cell of her own. I
Speaker 1: haven't seen anything about that. Yeah, I haven't seen anything
Speaker 1: about it either. I mean, and and in two thousand one,
Speaker 1: I mean, cell phone usage was not nearly as ubiquitous
Speaker 1: as it is today. No, it may have been that
Speaker 1: he had splurged and got one, or maybe he had
Speaker 1: one from work, but she didn't get one or didn't
Speaker 1: qualify for one through work. I mean, there's yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean not, it wasn't nearly as vlet let's let's go
Speaker 1: on though. Here's the fact I've been holding back. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a jerk like that. Yeah, yeah, I I
Speaker 1: talked about a little bit that it wasn't all sunshine
Speaker 1: and roses between them. Okay, do you remember that charge
Speaker 1: that she filed that then backfired and ended up as
Speaker 1: a charge against her. Okay, she had a court appointment
Speaker 1: on the morning of the tenth for that charge. So
Speaker 1: Ron had left the apartment to go to work at
Speaker 1: like noon or one, but that morning they had gone
Speaker 1: to court. He went with her, He went with her,
Speaker 1: and you know, it didn't go well, and she she
Speaker 1: pled not guilty, saying that she didn't do it. So,
Speaker 1: of course, now she's got to face the whole litany
Speaker 1: of the legal process. What I'm about to tell you, though,
Speaker 1: as with so many other things in this story, that
Speaker 1: the family is denying but the NYPD police report is saying,
Speaker 1: is that the couple had a big fight or a
Speaker 1: huge fight outside of the courtroom after the fact, and
Speaker 1: Ron was really mad at her because she was abusing
Speaker 1: drugs and alcohol and she was having sex with other
Speaker 1: people bisexual, So either she was having sex with women
Speaker 1: or she was having sex with men or both. I
Speaker 1: don't know, But in that accounting, according to the NYPD,
Speaker 1: she got angry and she stormed out of the courthouse
Speaker 1: and she left. He denies, of course, Oh yeah, he
Speaker 1: he says, that's not what happened at all. That that
Speaker 1: that and under his recounting the whole thing, they had
Speaker 1: lunch before he left to go to work. Correct. Correct, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they had lunch and they went out for lunch. Correct.
Speaker 1: Does anybody know what restaurants they went to? Is there
Speaker 1: any way to back that up? Again? He didn't say.
Speaker 1: My biggest gripe with his entire story is he didn't say,
Speaker 1: and that's what's gonna lead us into the end of
Speaker 1: this theory, which may make it us in trouble. And
Speaker 1: made lights and fires. I don't know, but what what
Speaker 1: if Ron killed her. He's the only person who has
Speaker 1: said most of the information we've given, and he's the
Speaker 1: only one who said that she wasn't home that night
Speaker 1: of the tenth, And that's entirely possible. But let's flip
Speaker 1: the tables. What if he wasn't home. What if he
Speaker 1: was out late and she called his cell phone at
Speaker 1: four am and he came to a very angry wife saying,
Speaker 1: where the hell have you been? I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: completely possible. Or or she called him and said where
Speaker 1: are you? And he was still angry from the morning,
Speaker 1: came home drunk and angry, annoyed even more because she
Speaker 1: had the gall to call him to see where he was.
Speaker 1: And then something happened, whether intentional or not, something happened
Speaker 1: and and she died from it. Or I mean, there's
Speaker 1: there's also because again he censored everything. Maybe she was
Speaker 1: having an affair with someone male or female. And by
Speaker 1: the way, if you ever get on the forums, the
Speaker 1: forums are lit up with the fact that she was
Speaker 1: obviously having an affair because she was out not with
Speaker 1: her husband, And I don't buy into that so much.
Speaker 1: But let's say she was having an affair. Let's say
Speaker 1: he knew she was having an affair and she got
Speaker 1: home late or he got home late drunk, same scenario
Speaker 1: plays out. They get into a fight because everything is brewing,
Speaker 1: and suddenly she dies for what what ever happens, and
Speaker 1: then he's forced to try and hide a body, and
Speaker 1: it just happens to be that this city goes crazy
Speaker 1: the next day and it, as Joe pointed out, maybe
Speaker 1: that makes it easier to hide a body. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean really, my point is is we only have
Speaker 1: one source of information, and we we have railed against
Speaker 1: that on so many stories before. I have to be honest,
Speaker 1: this one is such a heart wrenching story that it
Speaker 1: took me about five reads through everything before suddenly the
Speaker 1: source stood out as possibly the suspect. And that's why
Speaker 1: I think that most people have not pointed at Ron
Speaker 1: because he is viewed as collateral damage. He's the victim. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and either I'm right or wrong. I really hope I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: but I kind of I I kind of doubt that
Speaker 1: he has he killed her, but I think it's more
Speaker 1: likely that somebody else killed or some random type of person.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if Ron's seeing anyone. I haven't
Speaker 1: seen anything. The last article about the story, I think
Speaker 1: it's two years old, and which would make that ten
Speaker 1: plus year ten twelve years later he's did and they
Speaker 1: don't mention that. What you think they would if he
Speaker 1: had finally met somebody again, And they don't say that,
Speaker 1: which makes you think that maybe he really is the
Speaker 1: victim in this story. Yeah, I think the thing about
Speaker 1: it is is that when the last heard of Ron's Ron,
Speaker 1: I don't know if they owned or rented that apartment
Speaker 1: in the battery. I think they rented the rented it.
Speaker 1: He gave up the apartment and moved in with her
Speaker 1: parents and upstate New York. And the thing about it
Speaker 1: is is that if he went ballistic on her one
Speaker 1: night and wind up killing her accidentally or not, and
Speaker 1: there almost certainly would have been a prior history of
Speaker 1: domestic violence, and since she was so close to her family,
Speaker 1: they wouldn't have known about it, and he probably wouldn't
Speaker 1: be all that welcome in their home. It's hard, it's
Speaker 1: always hard to tell what's domestic abuse. But yeah, maybe
Speaker 1: I don't even want to speculate. Maybe she would have
Speaker 1: kept it quiet. I don't know, and there's no obviously,
Speaker 1: there's no reason to think that he was he was abusive.
Speaker 1: I think, honestly, the best scenario in this is that
Speaker 1: she was out late night, just crashed on someone's couch,
Speaker 1: left her stuff there, came home, the buildings were collapsing,
Speaker 1: and she thought, oh, I better go help, and then
Speaker 1: died trying to rescue people. And that person didn't know
Speaker 1: who she was, so they couldn't say I found your
Speaker 1: wife's bags in my apartment when she crashed on my couch. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, but that's the other thing, that the bag
Speaker 1: is going to have a receipt in it. No, it
Speaker 1: isn't wallet. Yeah, I mean I how many times do
Speaker 1: you get a receipt and you throw it in the
Speaker 1: trash can as you look out of the store. I
Speaker 1: never do that. I saw in the trash can. I
Speaker 1: want to get home. I do it all the time.
Speaker 1: I just asked for no receipt. But in those days,
Speaker 1: you do, you would you always got to receipt. But
Speaker 1: most people, as you know, I worked in retail about
Speaker 1: that time, and nine times out of ten you would say,
Speaker 1: do you went through a seat with you were in
Speaker 1: the bag? And they would say with me, please, with me, please,
Speaker 1: with me, please, and then that stuff in their pocket. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or they stuck it in their wallet and then came
Speaker 1: home and put it in there, you know, little ledger
Speaker 1: or whatever. My parents did this stuff in the bag.
Speaker 1: You know. I'm dealing with it when I get but yeah,
Speaker 1: but but it may have been on her. But it's
Speaker 1: but I I I have to say, and I understand
Speaker 1: why the why the family wants to believe that she
Speaker 1: heroically died in the trade center. And that's the Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's what makes you feel better to fall asleep
Speaker 1: at night. Yeah, I guess, sorry not to be labor
Speaker 1: the point too much. In fairness, If it wasn't her
Speaker 1: that was in the surveillance tape on the eleventh, she
Speaker 1: could have been walking home, saw the plane crash, had
Speaker 1: her bags, ran in with bags, dropped them or drop
Speaker 1: them on the street or whatever. I'm sure that all
Speaker 1: of the stuff that was left on the streets by
Speaker 1: people trying to save people wasn't inventory super well yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and may have been or yeah, I was
Speaker 1: just too trashed to really be worth saving. But but again,
Speaker 1: the problem I had, the big hitch They have with
Speaker 1: that story is that no one knows who she spent
Speaker 1: the night with or where she spent the night at.
Speaker 1: But again, come forward, I have got to admit that
Speaker 1: I have met somebody and had too much to drink
Speaker 1: and crashed on their couch and woke up in the
Speaker 1: morning and they were still crashed out, and I went
Speaker 1: where am I I gotta go? And it's not like
Speaker 1: I met them and I gave him all the impertinent
Speaker 1: details the night before. All I knew was my name
Speaker 1: was Steve, and I was some silly look dude with
Speaker 1: a goatee, and then I beat feet before they woke up.
Speaker 1: In fairness, possibly there weren't posters of you posted around,
Speaker 1: right that person would see that poster and think, oh,
Speaker 1: that's that's that girl. Also, in fairness, you don't necessarily
Speaker 1: go to the bar with bags full of comforters and
Speaker 1: bedding and stuff. That's the other thing that's a little odd.
Speaker 1: Think I don't know. There's I think there's just so
Speaker 1: much odd with this story that there's not a good answer.
Speaker 1: But I just I think that for my own peace
Speaker 1: of mind, I want to believe that she she rushed
Speaker 1: to help. She yeah, she died helping people, and I
Speaker 1: want to believe that too. That's the way I want
Speaker 1: to believe that, but I don't quite believe it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have a hard time. There's so many other things.
Speaker 1: But before we beliebor anything else and we go down
Speaker 1: any other rabbit holes, we're going to call this one done.
Speaker 1: So for anybody who wants to listen to any other
Speaker 1: episodes we have, or read any of the links pertaining
Speaker 1: to this story, you can find all of that on
Speaker 1: our website, which just thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You
Speaker 1: can find us on iTunes if you, and most people do.
Speaker 1: But if you find us on iTunes, do please take
Speaker 1: the time to subscribe, leave a comment and a rating,
Speaker 1: because that will help other people find us. We are
Speaker 1: going to be on just about every streaming service known
Speaker 1: to man at this point, I don't even know how
Speaker 1: many there are out there, but I thou i've stopped looking,
Speaker 1: stop adding us. Find us on there. You can subscribe
Speaker 1: through whatever podcast app you look use. We're on Facebook,
Speaker 1: so we've got the Facebook page and the Facebook group
Speaker 1: again this story. I had a great conversation on the
Speaker 1: Facebook group a couple of months back, which is why
Speaker 1: it's finally coming through because I was doing all the
Speaker 1: back research on it. But those are the kind of
Speaker 1: things that you'll get to read and participate in on
Speaker 1: the group we are on Twitter. It's Thinking without the
Speaker 1: G sideways is here's that character limit, silly Twitter. You
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Speaker 1: donate button and you can get anything off of there.
Speaker 1: And I think that's all of the good information that
Speaker 1: we need to give all of these good people, right guys, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: Well another mysteries saw that we overlooked one possibility. Well
Speaker 1: we did. Yeah, wow, Hello, let's staring you right in
Speaker 1: the face, dude, always yeah, always staring at us in
Speaker 1: the face. Well, okay, anyway, that's it, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 1: It's been great. And wait with bated breath, next week
Speaker 1: we have a big reveal. It's so good. It's gonna
Speaker 1: be great. It's so good, it's gonna be great. But
Speaker 1: we're not gonna tell you about it now. We're gonna
Speaker 1: make you wait another seven days.