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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, It's Sophia and welcome back to Work in Progress.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest was such a delight for me to have on.

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Speaker 1: I got to sit down and dig in deep with

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Speaker 1: Lori Gottlie, a psychotherapist and author of the New York

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Speaker 1: Times bestseller Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which has

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Speaker 1: sold over a million copies and is currently being adapted

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Speaker 1: as a television series. In addition to her clinical practice,

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Speaker 1: she writes the Atlantics weekly Dear Therapist advice column, and

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Speaker 1: she is the co host of the popular Dear Therapists podcast,

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Speaker 1: which is produced by former Work in Broadcast guest Katie Kuric.

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Speaker 1: Lorie is a sought after expert in media such as

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Speaker 1: The Today Show, Good Morning America, CBS, This Morning, CNN,

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Speaker 1: and NPRS Fresh Air, and her recent Ted Talk was

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Speaker 1: one of the top ten most watched the year. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to discuss that talk, along with the importance

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Speaker 1: of therapy versus talking with friends. Her book issues in

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Speaker 1: relationship and identity. There is so much great advice in

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Speaker 1: this episode. I honestly don't even want to say anymore.

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Speaker 1: I just want to jump in so you can benefit

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Speaker 1: from this conversation as much as I did enjoy. I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited to have you on the podcast today. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be here. Where are you at

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Speaker 1: the moment, Laurie, I'm in Los Angeles, Oh amazing. I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm just a couple of hours north uh this week,

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Speaker 1: but I'm based in l A. Two. I know we

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Speaker 1: were going to meet. I think well last year, a

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Speaker 1: year ago, we were going to meet at south By

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Speaker 1: Yes and the world shut down. What a time. How

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Speaker 1: I'm so curious how that has affected you and how

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Speaker 1: you've seen it affect people. I would imagine that the

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Speaker 1: content or or shape of the letters in your inbox

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Speaker 1: has probably really revolved around what this year has meant

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Speaker 1: to so many people. Yeah, I think, on the one hand,

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Speaker 1: it really has. But I think on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: what I've seen is that a lot of people have

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Speaker 1: started to deal with things that maybe they hadn't dealt

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Speaker 1: with before because they've been forced to slow down. I

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Speaker 1: think whatever was going on before has been amplified or magnified.

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Speaker 1: And I think the positive part of that is that

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Speaker 1: people are saying, I want to prioritize this now. That's

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Speaker 1: very cool. I'm excited to hear more about that. But

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Speaker 1: before we get into the present, something that people may

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Speaker 1: not know and that I always get so excited about

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Speaker 1: when it happens, is when I meet another fellow Angelina.

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Speaker 1: Because you were also born in Los Angeles and and

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Speaker 1: very rare birds. So I'm curious, where in l A

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Speaker 1: are you from and and did you love growing up there? Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: natives are very rare. People are always surprised when I

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Speaker 1: say that I'm from l A. They're like, really, yes,

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Speaker 1: people are actually born here. Um, but so many people

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Speaker 1: come from other places that it is rare to find

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Speaker 1: other Angelina's. I grew up in Beverly Hills and it

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Speaker 1: was not I think, you know, when people think of

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Speaker 1: Beverly Hills, I think when I was growing up, they

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Speaker 1: were thinking of Beverly Hills nine o two and know

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Speaker 1: the show. It was definitely not that. It was a

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Speaker 1: quiet suburb in the middle of Los Angeles and it

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Speaker 1: was sort of a very kind of normal suburban existence. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: where did you grow up? Um? I grew up not

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Speaker 1: not too far from you. I was kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: West Hollywood, Miracle Mile. Um. My parents, my dad's first

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Speaker 1: rented photos studio was on the corner of Beverly and

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Speaker 1: Stanley right Caddy corner to wear Arawan, the grocery store is,

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Speaker 1: and now my dad's old photo studio is a coffee

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Speaker 1: shop called on Dante Roasters. And I get really excited

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Speaker 1: anytime in that neighborhood and I go in there for

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Speaker 1: coffee because the coffee shop has these beautiful terra cotta

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Speaker 1: tiles on the floor and my parents installed those. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in the late seventies. They took a trip down to

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Speaker 1: Baja and loaded up my dad's truck with these cool

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Speaker 1: terra cotta, you know, twelve by twelve tiles, and then

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Speaker 1: drove back and did the floor there. And so I

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Speaker 1: kind of just have this interesting nostalgia, um because you know,

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Speaker 1: that was where my dad was working when I was

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Speaker 1: a baby. And our our first house was on Fifth Street,

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Speaker 1: right off Sweetzer, and it I know where that is.

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Speaker 1: It's such a sweet neighborhood. And there's all these old

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Speaker 1: kind of they feel almost like thirties forties little bungalows,

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Speaker 1: tiny little houses that maybe have two bedrooms, sometimes three.

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Speaker 1: And my parents did so much work on our house

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Speaker 1: and my dad and I when I was I think five,

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Speaker 1: I must have been five, maybe six we put up

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Speaker 1: a little white picket fence around our house and it's

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Speaker 1: still there, and it really Yeah, it's just so so sweet.

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Speaker 1: And I similarly to you, I think there's this kind

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Speaker 1: of misnomer from TV that every house in l A

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Speaker 1: Is a mansion and everyone in l A Is really wealthy,

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Speaker 1: and that l A is such a fancy place. But

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Speaker 1: it really felt like this cool series of neighborhoods to me,

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Speaker 1: almost like series of little suburbs. But then you could drive,

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Speaker 1: you know, onto a big boulevard and see a show,

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Speaker 1: or go to a museum or you know, see a

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Speaker 1: movie at the Pantageous, all these things that felt big

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Speaker 1: and and historic, which I really loved as a kid

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Speaker 1: because I remember feeling like, you know, there's places here

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Speaker 1: that are castles, And now I realized the Magic Castle

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Speaker 1: is like actually just a magic show building that was

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Speaker 1: built to look that way. When I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: I was sure it was part of a Disney movie. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's what was great about l A.

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Speaker 1: Is like you would just go outside and play with

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Speaker 1: your friends, and and it was very much like um,

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Speaker 1: you could be anywhere, but then you had all of

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Speaker 1: this culture around you. That's what I really loved about

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Speaker 1: it too. That was what I missed. I had a

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Speaker 1: big chunk of my childhood where I lived up in

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Speaker 1: central California, which I loved and it was so cool

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Speaker 1: and you know, just five thousand people in my town

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Speaker 1: and you know, cattle and horse ranches everywhere. But I

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Speaker 1: missed I missed museums, which was probably a really early

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Speaker 1: nod that I would do something like this, that I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't want to interview writers and therapy iss and culture

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Speaker 1: leaders and you know, talk about society and how we

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Speaker 1: you know, how we learn to know ourselves. Like I

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Speaker 1: was a little kid who had you know, California beaches

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Speaker 1: and ranches like right outside my door, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: I just really missed the museum. Mom. It's true, though.

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Speaker 1: It's funny people people forget that we actually have culture

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Speaker 1: here though, and then it's really, I think a place

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Speaker 1: of ideas when you think about it. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: where people feel free to just say, here's this idea

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Speaker 1: or I'm thinking about this. And I think that people

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Speaker 1: here love story and so for someone like you or

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Speaker 1: someone like me, where that's what we do is our

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Speaker 1: lives are about story and the human condition. It feels

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Speaker 1: like this seems like the place where we would call home. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that is so cool. So did did story? And I

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Speaker 1: wonder this for you because, of course, now in hindsight,

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Speaker 1: I can see for myself where as a child I

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Speaker 1: was identify find curiosity and storytelling and performing and research

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Speaker 1: and all those things. But for you, do you look

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Speaker 1: back now when you think about your childhood and think

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Speaker 1: that your current career was somehow obvious? You know, what,

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Speaker 1: what were you like? Who was Lorie as a little girl?

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Speaker 1: What were you fascinated by? What were the things that

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Speaker 1: really drew your attention? Well, it's funny because I never

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Speaker 1: in a million years would have thought I would end

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Speaker 1: up as a therapist, Which is interesting because I know

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Speaker 1: because I've always been interested in people, but I never

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Speaker 1: envisioned that for myself. I was a reader. I was

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Speaker 1: an obsessive reader. I still am. I always like to

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Speaker 1: say that I have books the way other women have shoes,

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Speaker 1: like I can't. I don't know what to do with

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Speaker 1: all the books. I have so many books, and I

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Speaker 1: won't get rid of them because they're all dog eared

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Speaker 1: and annotated, and they all mean something to me. And

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Speaker 1: what I was feeling or thinking at that time in

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Speaker 1: my life. And I you know, if someone were to

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Speaker 1: look inside my books, it would almost be like looking

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Speaker 1: inside my journal because I have just such a personal

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Speaker 1: connection to certain lines or passages. So I was always

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Speaker 1: a reader. And when I went to um College, I

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Speaker 1: studied literature. I studied actually French literature, and I studied

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Speaker 1: other languages as well. So I was interested in literature

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Speaker 1: and different cultures and language. And when I graduated from college,

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Speaker 1: because I'm from l A, I my family was not

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Speaker 1: a Hollywood family at all. We had no connections to

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Speaker 1: the industry. But I was really fascinated by story and

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Speaker 1: so I thought, I'm going to see what this is

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Speaker 1: all about. And so when I graduated from college, I

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Speaker 1: started working in the entertainment business. I first did film

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Speaker 1: development and then I moved over to network development. And

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Speaker 1: I was actually an executive, like a baby executive when

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Speaker 1: I got there at NBC. The year that e Er

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Speaker 1: and Friends premiered. Oh my goodness, what a time to

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Speaker 1: be in TV. Yeah, and that that was at a

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Speaker 1: time when people kind of look down on TV. It

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Speaker 1: was always about film was the thing. But I love

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Speaker 1: television because I loved that you could develop characters over

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Speaker 1: many seasons that you could really get in there. So

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Speaker 1: when I say to you, right, so, when I say

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Speaker 1: to you, I never thought I would be a therapist.

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Speaker 1: When you look at it, it's like, well, of course, right,

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Speaker 1: because I was all about what's going to happen to

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Speaker 1: these people and why and what's motivating them? And um

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Speaker 1: so I was. I was so interested in the long

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Speaker 1: term arc of these characters and these stories. That is

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Speaker 1: so interesting. I have so many questions about that. But

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Speaker 1: I must pause because there are other questions coming up

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Speaker 1: for me, which include how does a teenager in Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles get passionate about French literature? I did not expect

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Speaker 1: that curveball. I was like, I'm sorry, what so I

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Speaker 1: need to know how you went for being this voracious

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Speaker 1: reader in your childhood too to winding up studying French

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Speaker 1: literature and college, and then how in the world does

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Speaker 1: that take you into film. I'm so curious about the

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Speaker 1: particulars of your story. Well, what I loved about French

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Speaker 1: literature even as a teenager was that it was all

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Speaker 1: of these big existential questions about life. What is the

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Speaker 1: meaning of life? Like, what is our purpose here? Questions

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Speaker 1: about agency and free will and all those big questions.

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Speaker 1: So I think when you're a teenager, and you're a

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Speaker 1: teenager who doesn't quite fit in like I was, I

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Speaker 1: was sort of the the academic kid, so I had

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Speaker 1: my sort of intellectual friends, but it was it was

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Speaker 1: really sort of a friend group of people talking about ideas,

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Speaker 1: and we were really curious about like what is life about?

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Speaker 1: And we would have these very sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: when you look back, you feel like they're very naive

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Speaker 1: kinds of conversations because you know you're a teenager trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out the world. But I think it some ways,

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Speaker 1: they really are the questions that we all deal with

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Speaker 1: as adults in our lives. And so I was fascinated

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Speaker 1: by that, and I loved reading it in French because

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, there are translations, of course, but

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Speaker 1: when you read it in the actual language, there are

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Speaker 1: certain things that just don't translate in exactly the same way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's so interesting. And when you ask, or when you

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Speaker 1: reference rather that you were asking those questions, you know,

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Speaker 1: what is life about? And what is our purpose here?

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Speaker 1: I think that that is so much of what we

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Speaker 1: all as humans ask of ourselves repeatedly throughout our lives,

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Speaker 1: you know. I I know that I've laughed with my

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Speaker 1: therapist and been like, remember when I was thinking about

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Speaker 1: this five years ago, Well I solved that, and now

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Speaker 1: I got to do the next version of it. Like

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Speaker 1: there's always a level up. I wasn't prepared for that.

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Speaker 1: Why did nobody tell me that was coming? And and

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Speaker 1: so I love actually imagining that as a teenager, you

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Speaker 1: were asking those questions that I then would pause it

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Speaker 1: that you've likely asked yourself and your friend group has

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Speaker 1: likely discussed throughout stages of your life, right, And I

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Speaker 1: think we come at these questions differently. So when you

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Speaker 1: say you say to your therapist, well, you know, now

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Speaker 1: I have to deal with this. I think there's a

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Speaker 1: certain readiness based on your life experiences when you start

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Speaker 1: to look at certain things. You know, I find that

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Speaker 1: all the time where people come to me for therapy

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Speaker 1: and then we're sort of done for the time being,

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Speaker 1: and then something else happens. They have a child, or

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Speaker 1: they're getting married, or they're getting divorced, or a parent

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Speaker 1: dies or whatever it is, and they say, oh, I

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Speaker 1: didn't realize I was going to react to this in

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Speaker 1: that way, and I need to come and understand this better.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting, so obviously questioning life and it's motivations,

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Speaker 1: and you know, the human place in this sort of

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Speaker 1: global condition speaks to unwinding each each of our stories

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Speaker 1: and the work that you do today. Do you also

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Speaker 1: see connections in terms of how you grew up in

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Speaker 1: your family or your upbringing and how it might have

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Speaker 1: influenced your career. Yeah? Absolutely. I mean I think that

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Speaker 1: the very questions that my patients are asking in their

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Speaker 1: lives or questions that I have had to ask in

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Speaker 1: my own life, and I feel this idea of story

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Speaker 1: is so central to what I do as a therapist.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's because I think that the reason

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Speaker 1: people come to therapy is because they're sort of stuck

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Speaker 1: in their story. And and the other part of it

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Speaker 1: is is that we're all unreliable narrators of our stories.

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Speaker 1: I love that part of your ted talk. I love

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Speaker 1: Will you explain what that means that we are unreliable narrators? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you know, and maybe you should talk to someone.

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Speaker 1: In my book, you can see that where I follow

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Speaker 1: these four patients as they come in and they go

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Speaker 1: through their struggles. And then I'm the fifth patients in

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Speaker 1: the book, and I go through my struggle, and you

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Speaker 1: can see that all five of us come in with

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Speaker 1: these very unreliable narratives of our lives. We're telling our

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Speaker 1: stories through these this very particular lens. And it's not

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Speaker 1: that we're purposely trying to mislead the therapist. That my

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Speaker 1: patients aren't trying to mislead me, and I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to mislead my therapist. It's more that we have a

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Speaker 1: very particular take on what happens to us, and often

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Speaker 1: we can't see the big picture. We can't see why

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Speaker 1: the other person is doing what they're doing, or we

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Speaker 1: don't understand what our own role is in self sabotaging ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We can't see our own blind spots, of course, so

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Speaker 1: those aren't in the story. Um, what we choose to

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Speaker 1: emphasize or minimize when we're telling a story, who are

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Speaker 1: the heroes in the story? Who are the victims? Who

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Speaker 1: are the villains? That all starts to change as you

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Speaker 1: start to really examine the story in therapy, and I

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Speaker 1: almost feel like my job, as I'm sitting in the

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Speaker 1: therapist chair is that I'm more of an editor than

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Speaker 1: a therapist, because I'm helping people to edit these faulty narratives.

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Speaker 1: And some of the faulty narratives are these internal narratives

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Speaker 1: like I'm unlovable, or nothing will ever work out for me,

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Speaker 1: or I can't trust at anyone. That's the narrative that

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Speaker 1: informs every decision, choice, um behavior. That that is happening

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Speaker 1: all the time, every day, and you don't even realize

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Speaker 1: that that story is running in the background all the time,

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Speaker 1: all the time. And one of the things that really

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Speaker 1: blew my mind in terms of understanding that we all

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Speaker 1: do that well. First your brilliant quote that we're unreliable

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Speaker 1: narrators of our stories. I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I feel attacked. And seen what does it mean? And

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Speaker 1: and and the other idea that whatever story you've told yourself,

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Speaker 1: whatever the story is that you carry and you believe

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Speaker 1: to be true about your life, it will always be

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Speaker 1: easy to find evidence for it. So if the idea

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Speaker 1: is I'm unlovable or I'm unworthy, anything that happens in

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Speaker 1: your life, you can say, see that's proof. See that

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Speaker 1: person didn't call me back when they said they would.

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Speaker 1: See I didn't hear from so and so on my birthday. See,

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Speaker 1: and and it can keep you trapped in a story

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Speaker 1: that once you admit that that's your internal story, the

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Speaker 1: people who do love you look at you and go,

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Speaker 1: are you crazy? But it's a it's a thing that

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Speaker 1: colors are experiences unless we're willing to look inward and

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Speaker 1: deal with it. And I I really must say, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for the work that people like you do.

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Speaker 1: And I must also say I'm amazed at the courage

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Speaker 1: it takes as a leader in your field, as a therapist,

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Speaker 1: as someone who you know has been on the TED

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Speaker 1: stage and is so looked to in this world for

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Speaker 1: you to say, yeah, I'm going to put four patients

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Speaker 1: in the book and then myself. Who was that an

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Speaker 1: intense choice to not only talk through how you would

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Speaker 1: advise these four people, but then be revealing about ways

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Speaker 1: you have needed to be advised yourself. Well, I never

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Speaker 1: intended to write a book where I included myself and

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Speaker 1: my own therapy sessions. And I wasn't even going to

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Speaker 1: write this book. I And in this book, I described

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Speaker 1: that I was supposed to be writing a book about happiness,

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Speaker 1: and the happiness book was making me miserable. I called

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Speaker 1: it the miserable, depression inducing happiness Book because I felt

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Speaker 1: like it just couldn't capture what I have the privilege

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Speaker 1: of seeing every day, which is I get to see

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Speaker 1: the human condition in the room every day. It's not

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Speaker 1: the social media version of life. It's not the dinner

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Speaker 1: party version of life. It's not necessarily even what we

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Speaker 1: tell our friends or our family. It is the real

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Speaker 1: tough stuff that we're dealing with. And what I see

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Speaker 1: are these real heroic moments, these moments where people are

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Speaker 1: making small changes. I think people don't realize that most

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Speaker 1: big transformations come about from these tiny, almost imperceptible steps

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Speaker 1: that we take along the way, and that's what we're

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Speaker 1: doing in therapy. So I said, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: write this happiness book. I canceled that book, and I said,

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Speaker 1: I want to write a book where I bring people

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Speaker 1: into the therapy room so they can be a fly

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Speaker 1: on the wall and they can see how people actually

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Speaker 1: get through their struggles, how they grow and change, how

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Speaker 1: they transform through this process of connecting with another human being,

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Speaker 1: which is the therapist in this case, and so they

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Speaker 1: can connect with the other people in their lives outside

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Speaker 1: of the therapy room. But at the same time, I

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Speaker 1: was going through my own struggle, and I thought it

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Speaker 1: would be really disingenuous of me to write about these

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Speaker 1: four patients and to not include the fact that I

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Speaker 1: was going through something at the same time. So I

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Speaker 1: made a fifth patience in the book, and that was me.

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Speaker 1: And when I when I actually sold this book, publishers said,

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Speaker 1: no one's going to read this book. They all wanted

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Speaker 1: the Happiness Book, and they said, no one's going to

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Speaker 1: read this book. Who wants to read a book about

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Speaker 1: people talking in the therapy room. And of course now

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Speaker 1: it's sold over a million copies, and you know, it's like,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's a lot of people have seen it. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I a pretty good gauge on what people come to

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Speaker 1: therapy for, and I'm telling you, this is the book

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Speaker 1: they need exactly exactly. And that was why I wanted

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Speaker 1: to write it. I wanted to write a book that

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Speaker 1: would actually help people. I did not think The Happiness

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Speaker 1: Book was going to help people, because I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's about happiness. They think it's about like what we

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Speaker 1: were talking about, meaning and purpose and and getting unstuck

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Speaker 1: and so I wanted to show how people get unstuck.

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Speaker 1: And so people said, you know, no one's going to

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Speaker 1: read this book. So I was very unself conscious in

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Speaker 1: writing about myself because I thought, well, maybe three people

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Speaker 1: will read this book, and for those three people who

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Speaker 1: read it, I want it to be transformative for them.

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Speaker 1: And so I just let it rip, you know, like

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Speaker 1: I just I did not edit myself. It's very raw

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Speaker 1: and authentic. And then I turned in the book to

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Speaker 1: my publisher and they said, oh my gosh. I laughed,

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Speaker 1: I cried, I saw myself in it. I gave it

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Speaker 1: to all these people, and I thought, oh, maybe I

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Speaker 1: should edit myself a little bit, Maybe I should clean

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Speaker 1: myself helf up, because maybe three hundred or three thousand

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Speaker 1: people will read this. Of course, I had no idea

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Speaker 1: just how many people all over the world would be

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Speaker 1: reading this. And I didn't clean myself up, and I

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Speaker 1: am so glad that I didn't, because I think that

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Speaker 1: the reason that it has resonated so widely is because

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Speaker 1: it is so real and raw and vulnerable. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: I think people are craving that. And you really hit

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Speaker 1: the nail on the head. But it was just a

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Speaker 1: passing moment a few a few minutes ago where you

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Speaker 1: said that when you're in the room with people, you

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Speaker 1: get their whole selves. You don't get social media version.

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Speaker 1: You know, social media is a highlight reel so often,

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Speaker 1: and I actually love that you didn't put the social

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Speaker 1: media version of yourself in your book. You let it

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Speaker 1: be complete and complex. We are as humans, these three dimensional, complicated, beautiful,

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Speaker 1: multifaceted beings, and so often were reduced to a title

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Speaker 1: of you know, a job or a position in a family,

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Speaker 1: or whatever it is you do in the world. That's

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00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 1: one thing, one word, one term. And I think that

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Speaker 1: that's something that causes so much pain for people and

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Speaker 1: makes people feel so frustrated. And that's terrible expectations. You know,

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Speaker 1: this notion that your idol can't have a bad day,

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Speaker 1: or that someone who is successful is not also suffering,

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Speaker 1: or that someone who is suffering does not also have joy.

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Speaker 1: It can begin to make things feel, as you said,

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Speaker 1: so sticky. And I'm curious, because you are you are

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Speaker 1: the expert, you know in the room, what are some

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Speaker 1: of the things that you think are really sticky for

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Speaker 1: people that can be true for everyone, and and of

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Speaker 1: those whichever those themes are that you're going to share

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Speaker 1: with us, how do you recommend people take that first

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Speaker 1: step towards getting unstuck. I think what's really hard for

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Speaker 1: people is this question that's at the core for all

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Speaker 1: of us, which is how can I love and be loved?

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Speaker 1: And I mean not only by others, but by ourselves

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Speaker 1: that I think we have so much trouble taking in love,

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Speaker 1: giving love in a way that goes smoothly loving ourselves.

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Speaker 1: When I give talks, often I will be up on

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Speaker 1: stage and I will say to people, show of hands,

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Speaker 1: who is the person that you talked to most in

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Speaker 1: the course of your life? Is it your partner, lots

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Speaker 1: of hands? Is it your sister, is it your parents?

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Speaker 1: Is it your best friend? Lots of people will respond

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Speaker 1: to that. But the person that we talked to most

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Speaker 1: in the course of our lives is ourselves. And what

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Speaker 1: we generally say to ourselves isn't always kind or true

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Speaker 1: or useful. And so I had this therapy client who

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Speaker 1: was so self critical, and she could not see it

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Speaker 1: because it just became part of the noise. She didn't

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Speaker 1: even notice it. At a certain point and I said, listen,

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Speaker 1: I want you to go home, and I want you

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Speaker 1: to write down everything that you hear yourself say to

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Speaker 1: yourself over the course of a few days, really listening

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Speaker 1: for it, and then come back and we'll talk about it.

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Speaker 1: So she comes back the next week. She's got her phone,

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Speaker 1: She's written it all down, and she starts to read it,

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Speaker 1: and she starts crying. She can barely get a word out.

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Speaker 1: She just breaks down crying, and she says, I can't

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Speaker 1: even read this. I am such a bully to myself.

431
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: And I had no idea. And they were things like

432
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: she had made a typo and she was writing an

433
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: email and she said her mom, you know, and herself

434
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: that voice in her heads, you're so stupid. She caught

435
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: a reflection of herself, and she said, oh, you look horrible, right,

436
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: And you would never say that to a friend, not

437
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: because you're sugarcoating it or trying to be nice, but

438
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 1: because you would not actually think your friend was stupid

439
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: if she made that typo, or you would not think

440
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: she looked terrible if she looked that way, right. And

441
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: so this whole idea that we need to be kinder

442
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: to ourselves. I think we have this idea that I

443
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 1: need to put myself to be better, to achieve more,

444
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 1: to be more successful, whatever that means. And the thing is,

445
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 1: when you self flagellate, you're actually working against yourself because

446
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,719
Speaker 1: you're just bathing yourself in shame. You don't allow for

447
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: your humanity. When you are kind to yourself, that's when

448
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: you actually have the space to become more successful, to

449
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: become to inhabit the person that you want to be

450
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: because you're being kind to yourself. It's almost like think

451
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: about how you would talk to a child, right would

452
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: you say to that child who may be made a mistake, like, well,

453
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 1: that's terrible, You've got to do better. You know you

454
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't do that. You would say, that's okay, let's look

455
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: at what happened. You would be really compassionate with that child.

456
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: Why can't we be that compassionate with ourselves? I see

457
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: that so much in therapy. No matter what the issue

458
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: is that they're coming in for, ultimately people are so

459
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: hard on themselves. They are apologizing for having feelings, especially women.

460
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 1: Women especially will start to cry and they'll say, I'm

461
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 1: so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm crying And just like

462
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: you're in a therapy office, do you see the tissues there?

463
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: Do you see them all over the office? You're supposed

464
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 1: to be crying here. This is the place where we

465
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: expect that you're going to cry. But they'll even apologize

466
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: in a therapy office for crying for having feelings. Mm hmm. God,

467
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 1: I'm trying to find my words because you've said so

468
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: many things that just feel like our our friend and

469
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: other podcast guests here who we love so much, love

470
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 1: the Agi E Jones. We'll talk about, you know, the

471
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: women in her life who dropped gems, and she'll go, boop,

472
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: dropped a gem. So you know that, you know you've

473
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: said something that's impacted her. And I love that because

474
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: it's such a it's such an act of love. And

475
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: and as as you said, women in particular can really

476
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: be so self critical and feel like we're not allowed

477
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: to have feelings, meaning we're also not allowed to have joy.

478
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: And so in my head, I was like, oh my gosh,

479
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: this notion that being a bully to yourself is actually

480
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: bathing yourself in shame. There's a gem. How is a

481
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: person supposed to be capable or or to do more

482
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 1: if they're shrouded in shame? That's a gym. What you

483
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: said about how if we're kind to ourselves it enables

484
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: growth another one. I'm just like, I feel like I'm

485
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: picking them up behind you as you go. It's so

486
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: it's so amazing. But I know that men also struggle

487
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: with you know, feelings and emotion, and that, especially in

488
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: our society, men so often are basically pushed into the

489
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: box of your only reasonable response to anything is anger

490
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: and you can't have a sensitive feeling, which I would

491
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: imagine as the root of so much of the you know,

492
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: discomfort and violence we see happening, you know, in gender

493
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: roles in this country. How do you think you mentioned

494
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: that women are so apologetic for having feelings because we

495
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: have been made to feel so ashamed about being quote emotional.

496
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 1: And I think emotions are great because they're the root

497
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: of empathy. I think of empathy as a superpower. But

498
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 1: what what are some more of the things that you

499
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 1: see in the differences between how men and women talk

500
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: about their issues in therapy? What what do you think

501
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: those differences speak to for us in society? How how

502
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: can we be aware of them? Yeah, there really is

503
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,719
Speaker 1: a difference in terms of what I see in the

504
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: therapy room. But I wanted first to say something about

505
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: when you talk about those little nuggets what you just

506
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: said about women and joy, that we have so much

507
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:31,719
Speaker 1: trouble being able to feel like we deserve to have

508
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: joy that it almost feels indulgent. Right. And when you

509
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, women feeling like they're two emotional feelings,

510
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: people tend to think there are good feelings and they're

511
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: bad feelings, Like a good feeling is joy and a

512
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: bad feeling is like sadness or anxiety or even envy.

513
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: And I always say to people, your feelings are like

514
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: a compass. They tell you where to go, they tell

515
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: you what direction to go in. And so instead of

516
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: trying to tend that you're not feeling what you're feeling,

517
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: use your feelings. If you're feeling sad, what is what

518
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: is causing that? If you're feeling angry, well, did somebody

519
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: cross the boundary of yours? Did you feel hurt? What happened? Right?

520
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: So it tells you what's not working, so that you

521
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: can figure out how to make things work. Even envy

522
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: people say, you know, oh, I don't want to especially

523
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: for women, it's like very taboo. You can't feel envious

524
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: of another person. But I say, yes, welcome the envy

525
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: because it tells you what you want. It tells you

526
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: something about desire, and women are so afraid of desire.

527
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: We're not allowed to have desire, right, And so I say,

528
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: follow your envy because it tells you maybe I want

529
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: something like that in my life, and maybe I have permission.

530
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: I can give myself permission to go after it and

531
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: get it. So I just wanted to to say that

532
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: because when you mentioned joy, I thought, yes, we really

533
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: need to be able to own our joy and to

534
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: be able to own our desire. But in terms of

535
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: men and women, here's something I'll see in the therapy room.

536
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: So let's say I'm seeing a heterosexual couple. Others comes

537
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: out in all kinds of couples, where the woman will

538
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: often say to her husband or her partner, um, you know,

539
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: I feel like there's this gap between us. I feel

540
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: like there's this distance. I feel like you're not sharing

541
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: your inner world with me, and I want to get

542
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: closer to you. I really want you to tell me

543
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: what's going on with you, right, share your emotions with me.

544
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: And so then he will, and let's say he starts crying.

545
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: Let's say he sheds a tear, or let's say he

546
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: really starts crying right inevitably she will look at me

547
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: like a deer in headlights, and like and what comes

548
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: out in those conversations is and she doesn't quite say this,

549
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: and then we we sort of unpack it is I

550
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: don't feel safe when you don't share with me, because

551
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: I feel distance from you. But I don't feel safe

552
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: when you share too much with me because I do

553
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: I'm buying into these gender roles around, like you're supposed

554
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: to be the strong one, and if you kind of

555
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: fall apart, I get really anxious. So men are getting

556
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: these mixed messages they're saying. You know, we say to them, like,

557
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: we want to level the playing field. We want to

558
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: be able to do the things that men do, and

559
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: we want you to be able to do the things

560
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: that were traditionally things that that we're in the in

561
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: the kind of bucket of what women are allowed to do,

562
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: like to be able to share your feelings, to be

563
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: able to be vulnerable. But when men are vulnerable, they

564
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: often get shut down by women's attitudes towards that. God,

565
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: that's so interesting, and I wonder how that plays out.

566
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: You know, we're in this time where we're seeing that

567
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: so many women in our country are becoming the breadwinners,

568
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: you know, are are becoming the heads of households, and

569
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: men are having to or wanting to, you know, take

570
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: over more of the work of house and childcare, and

571
00:31:54,360 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: how that shifting dichotomy is affecting people's relationships. I've certainly

572
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: had some conversations with friends who say, you know, I

573
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: want equality, and I ultimately believe in feminism and all

574
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: of these things, and I kind of want him to

575
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: deal with this because he's the man, and and everyone's

576
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: sitting around going, okay, well, what does that mean? How

577
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: do we unpack this? You know, we've been steeped in

578
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: this very gendered tea for such a long time that

579
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: we don't realize how deeply it's permeated all of us.

580
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm so curious about how that's going to

581
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: play out, and I think it will only play out

582
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: well if we're all willing to be vulnerable about it. Well,

583
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: that's right, and I think that we as women need

584
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: to make space for men to be vulnerable. So men

585
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: will often come into the therapy room and they'll say

586
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: to me, you know, I've never told anyone this before.

587
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: And they have a good marriage, they have they have

588
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: a partner, or they have good friends that they have

589
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: family members that they're close to, but they feel like

590
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: they still can't tell a soul. Women will come in

591
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: and they'll say, you know, I've never told anyone this

592
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: before except for my mother, my sister, my best friend. Right,

593
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: So they've told like a few people, but they feel

594
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: like they haven't told anyone. Men literally have never told

595
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: any right and women when they feel like when they

596
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: say I've never told anyone, they actually have maybe confided

597
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: in someone they can do that they have permission to

598
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: do that, right well, And and I think with women,

599
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: for so long, we've had these little almost like societies,

600
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: we've had these little sisterhoods where we can air our secrets.

601
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: But it feels like they're still in a container that

602
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: is secret. Yeah. Yeah, it feels like it's still held

603
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: away from the world. And it's striking to me to

604
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: imagine that. If it's striking for me to imagine that

605
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: for us, even when we feel that we're being seen

606
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: in this secret container of our most trusted confidence in

607
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: the world, we feel unseen. How unseen do you know

608
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: the men we love in our lives, our friends, our partners,

609
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: um if we are in you know, how our sexual

610
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: relationships as you mentioned, how do those men in our lives?

611
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: Our fathers are brothers? How invisible are unseen? Do they

612
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 1: feel if they've literally never said something out loud? It's

613
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: fascinating to think about it is and this is really

614
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: near and dear to my heart because I'm raising a son.

615
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because when I do my Dear Therapist column,

616
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: often I will say to him, what do you think right?

617
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: What do you think should happen here? And it really

618
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: gets him to really think about relationships and emotions and

619
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: just to be able to know that this is normal

620
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 1: to talk about these things, that this is part of life.

621
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: And so I'm so glad that I feel like it's

622
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: sort of my mission to raise a boy who feels

623
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: really comfortable talking about his feelings. Yes, And I think

624
00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: that's the key to ending this very traditional gendered sexism

625
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: that we've all grown up in. You know, when we

626
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: look around at the world and we realize we live

627
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: in this society that is unpacking it's it's evils. You

628
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: know that we've wanted to sweep under the rug. As

629
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: we've had successes, it's so important to examine how we

630
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: allow men to be different, because, as a woman who's

631
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 1: experienced sexism and violence and oppression based on gender my

632
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: whole life, I'm exhausted. I'm like, these men better get

633
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: their ship together. And and I know that hurt people,

634
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: hurt people, And I know that these toxic roles we've

635
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: all been raised with have been hard for them too.

636
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: You know, the patriarchy has nothing for men either, And

637
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: so I'm so heartened when you talk about the conversations

638
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: you're having with your son. I get so excited whenever

639
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: one of my really good friends, who I just think

640
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: is a legendary human and has a son, and I'm like,

641
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,919
Speaker 1: a better future for men is coming, and I think

642
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: we all need that. Yeah, I mean, I think when

643
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 1: we talk about the patriarchy, I think one way that

644
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: that we can topple the patriarchy is by creating the

645
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: space for men to be able to be vulnerable, because,

646
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: like you said, hurt people hurt people, and and I

647
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: think that's that's exactly what I had. I had a

648
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 1: couple that I was seeing and one person said to

649
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: the other, you know what three words would make me

650
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: feel so loved And the person said, obviously, I love you,

651
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: and the other person said, no, it's I understand you.

652
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: Those three words I understand you. Isn't that what we

653
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 1: all want? Absolutely? And I think that there's something that

654
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: you talk about in your book that is sort of

655
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: leaping out of my brain. It's like a flashing light

656
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: bulb right now when when you talk about the fact

657
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: that there is no hierarchy of pain. But we all

658
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: whether we're talking about these gendered rules for men and women,

659
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 1: whether we're talking about people who think that their pain

660
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 1: is higher or lower on a scale based on privilege

661
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: or access, whether we look at the verticals of how

662
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: people are defined and have been harmed in society. You

663
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: know l g B, t Q plus folks are non

664
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 1: binary friends UM folks who are oppressed because of because

665
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: of race or so zoo any economic status. What can

666
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: happen as we get conscious is that we say, oh, well,

667
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: my my pain is not as important as this person's pain,

668
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: or yes, this terrible thing is happening in my neighborhood.

669
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: But did you see um to pull from current events

670
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: at the time that we're recording, did you see what's

671
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: happening in Columbia right now? What do we have to

672
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: be upset about? And and you talk about how this

673
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:54,240
Speaker 1: insistence on our place, our position in this quote unquote

674
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: hierarchy is actually simply a false belief that leads to

675
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: each of us. Man, am I using her feelings? And

676
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: and when I think about minimizing our feelings by comparing

677
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: them to what we perceive as the suffering of others,

678
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: what I really think is it shuts us down and

679
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: be it gives us a very weird excuse not to

680
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: deal with our ship. That's right. And I think what

681
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: happens is people start to feel very alone in their

682
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: struggles and in maybe you should talk to someone. I

683
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: purposely chose people who seem very different from one another

684
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: so that you can see that lots of people with

685
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: lots of different histories, ages, um, socio economic status, you know,

686
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: all kinds of differences, really are the same at their core,

687
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: that we're all more the same than we are different.

688
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: And so when we talk about the hierarchy of pain

689
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: that I write about, what I'm talking about is in

690
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: our culture, with our physical health, we don't do that.

691
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: So if you break your arm you don't say, well,

692
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go to the doctor and get

693
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: a cast for this and get an X ray because

694
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 1: someone else has stage four cancer. We just don't do that.

695
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: We're not comparing it to someone else. We're saying, my

696
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: arm is broken, I need to go get treatment for it.

697
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: We do that with our emotional health, right, So what

698
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 1: happens is we feel like, well, yeah, I've been feeling sad,

699
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: or I'm having trouble sleeping, or I'm having this trouble

700
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: in my relationship, or I'm feeling a lot of anxiety,

701
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: but you know, I have a roof over my head

702
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: and food on the table, so really it's not that

703
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: bad compared to And then people will compare it to

704
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: whatever they want to compare it to, and so they

705
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: don't get help. It's almost like the physical equivalent would

706
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, I have this discomfort in my chest,

707
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:44,959
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to get it checked out until

708
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: I have a heart attack and then I'll end up

709
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: in the e R. That's what people do with their

710
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: emotional health. They say, yeah, you know, I'm I'm experiencing

711
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 1: this and and you know, something feels off, something doesn't

712
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: feel right, but you know, they don't really end up

713
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: in my office until they're having the equivalent of an

714
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: emotional heart attack. And two things happen when you wait

715
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: that long. One is that because you've waited so long,

716
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: you've suffered unnecessarily, sometimes for weeks, sometimes for months, and

717
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 1: sometimes for years. And the other thing is that when

718
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: you come in when you're at the emotional heart attack stage,

719
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: we now have to deal with the where you are

720
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: now sort of the crisis at hand, and then we

721
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: got to get you back to baseline, and now we

722
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: can deal with all the stuff that we would have

723
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: been dealing with if you would just come in when

724
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: you were first feeling like maybe I should talk to someone.

725
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: So I think if the question is should I talk

726
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: to someone, the answer is always yes. Yeah. I love

727
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: that don't wait until you're having an emotional heart attack.

728
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: And I do think so many of us, you know,

729
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: when you when we reference those sort of secret circles

730
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: you know of of women, so many of us think, well,

731
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,840
Speaker 1: I talked to my close friends. I have. I have

732
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: one person at least I tell all my secrets to.

733
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 1: But you know, as a professional that it really helps

734
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: to work through patterns with someone other than your friends.

735
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: A professional person who's listening to you in an office,

736
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: who also has been trained to do so well will

737
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: offer you different things than than friends might are. Are

738
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: there are there terms for the differences that our audience

739
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: should know about. Yeah, there's such a difference between what

740
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 1: happens between friends and what happens when you bring something

741
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,959
Speaker 1: to a therapist. There's this Buddhist notion that I write

742
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: about of idiot compassion versus wise compassion. So idiot compassion

743
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: is what we do with our friends. Our friends come

744
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: to us and they say, listen to what happened. Can

745
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: you believe that so and so did this? And we say, yeah,

746
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: they were wrong, you were right. How terrible? I can't

747
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: believe that happened to you. And then it feels so

748
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: delicious in the moment, doesn't it when your friends says that,

749
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: because you feel so validated. But the problem with that

750
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: is that you don't learn anything from the experience. You

751
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: can't see what your role was, you can't see that.

752
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: Maybe there's a different way to respond to that. And

753
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: I'm not saying, by the way, that there aren't sort

754
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: of difficult people in your life, right, because everybody has

755
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: difficult people. We have this saying as therapist before diagnosing

756
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: someone with depression, make sure they aren't surrounded by assholes? Right?

757
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: So I like that. So so you know there are

758
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: always going to be difficult people. But the question is

759
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: what are you doing in that relationship? Do you need

760
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: to be in relationship with that person? If you want

761
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: to be in relationship with that person, what are you

762
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: doing that is exacerbating the situation? How do you contribute

763
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: to this person acting in this way toward you? How

764
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: are you responding in a way that makes it even worse? Um?

765
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: Do you have boundaries? What kind of boundaries do you need? Right? Um?

766
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: And So the problem with idiot compassion is that if

767
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: you listen to your friends over time, you will probably

768
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: hear some kind of pattern in the sense of they're

769
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: telling the same kinds of stories over and over, maybe

770
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: a different cast of characters, maybe the same person they're

771
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: complaining about. But it starts to sound very much the same,

772
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: starts to sound like a broken record. It's kind of like,

773
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to,

774
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: maybe it's you. But we don't say that to our

775
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 1: friends with idiot compassion because we feel like our friend

776
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: will feel unsupported by us. What you get at a

777
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: therapist is you get wise compassion, which is we hold

778
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: up a mirror to you and we help you to

779
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: see something about yourself that maybe you haven't been willing

780
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: or able to see. And that's where change happens. And

781
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: so it's very different when you think about, well, I

782
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,479
Speaker 1: feel really good when I complain to my friend about

783
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: this person in my life. That might feel really good

784
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: in the short term, but notice that nothing's changing. Notice

785
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: that you aren't moving or growing. And and that's what

786
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: you're going to get if you go to a therapist.

787
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: You are going to have that mirror held up in

788
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: the most compassionate way so that you can see yourself

789
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: more clearly. And that gives you choices, yes, and the

790
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 1: choices are what makes an a new pathway forward possible.

791
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: And and to your point earlier about how we would

792
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: never not treat a broken arm, we we tend to

793
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: want to shy away from treating what's going on in

794
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: our brains, but they're the most powerful driving engine of

795
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: our lives. And and one of the things I find

796
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: so fascinating about what you're discussing. You know this, this

797
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 1: notion that essentially, a therapist will hold up a mirror

798
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: and say, hey, do you notice this pattern about yourself,

799
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: and then they'll help you figure out where it comes from.

800
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:38,479
Speaker 1: So one example you cited earlier, I just can't trust people, Well, okay,

801
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 1: let's figure out where your original wound around trust happened.

802
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: And perhaps that will be the first time a person

803
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 1: sitting in your chair has thought about what happened between

804
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: their parents when they were eight years old, or has

805
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: thought about this thing that happened in their young adult life.

806
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: And then you go, see, if that's the root, the

807
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: tree has been growing out of it, the fruit that's

808
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 1: been coming off that tree has been tainted by this experience.

809
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: What if we what if we plant you a new tree?

810
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: It's so freeing and and I think it's just something

811
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: that hasn't been encouraged for so many people. There's so

812
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: many myths about therapy and this notion that maybe I

813
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: don't deserve it, maybe my problems aren't important enough. And

814
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 1: I do hope that that begins to change for people.

815
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: And I think to your point, this book being such

816
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: an enormous bestseller and your column being such an incredible success,

817
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: your podcast as well, and and for the folks listening

818
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: at home, if you haven't read the column or heard

819
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: the podcast. Uh. The column is called Dear Therapist and

820
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: it's in the Atlantic, and the podcast is Dear Therapists.

821
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: It's produced by another former Work in Progress guest, Katie Kuric,

822
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 1: who we all love an a door. And I just think,

823
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I'm personalizing this, but for me,

824
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: I think that these things, being these big smash hits,

825
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: are so exciting. I'm like, look at all these people

826
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,760
Speaker 1: who care about their mental health. It feels it feels

827
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 1: like something to celebrate. Does it feel that way to you?

828
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 1: It does. I think one of the things that I'm

829
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,760
Speaker 1: really trying to do is democratized therapy and provide access

830
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 1: to what it is. I think that so many people

831
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: I don't know what therapy is. They have all kinds

832
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: of misconceptions about it. That's why. And maybe you should

833
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 1: talk to someone people get to sit in and see

834
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: what these sessions sounds like and what can really happen

835
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: when two people sit in a room like that together.

836
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: And I think the and I think the other thing

837
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 1: is with the podcast, there's this misconception about therapy that

838
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: you're going to come to therapy, You're going to talk

839
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: about your childhood forever, and you're never gonna leave. And

840
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: that's why I think a lot of people don't go

841
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: to therapy because I think I'm not going to sign

842
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 1: up for that. That sounds horrible, right, And I think

843
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: that you can see, first of all, in the book,

844
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: you can see that we really deal with the present.

845
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 1: We deal with how the past is informing the present,

846
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: what's keeping you stuck. What you were saying earlier about

847
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 1: I can't trust someone is sort of like punishing the

848
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: person you're with now for a past person. Since so

849
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: if somebody did not earn your trust in the past,

850
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: maybe that was a caregiver, maybe that was a parent,

851
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: maybe that was a relationship you were in, and the

852
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 1: person broke your trust. Don't punish the person in front

853
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 1: of you for what somebody else did. And people don't

854
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: realize that they're doing that. And so these are the

855
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 1: kinds of things that come to lights. You're really dealing

856
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: with the present and how the past might be getting

857
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 1: in the way so that you can create a different

858
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: future for yourself. And what I love about the podcast

859
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: is that it doesn't take years of therapy. In one session,

860
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: we do a session, people hear what a therapy session

861
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: sounds like, and at the end of the session, we

862
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: give them concrete, actionable advice that they have one week

863
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: to try out. And they come back and you hear

864
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: it all in in one episode, and we hear what

865
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: happened after the session, And I think that's so satisfying

866
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:07,720
Speaker 1: because you can learn so much from simply hearing what worked,

867
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: what didn't, um and and and you see people making

868
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:15,399
Speaker 1: significant shifts, maybe they've been stuck for years, and they say, oh,

869
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: my gosh, I was on the podcast and after one session,

870
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: I did all of these things and it really changed

871
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 1: things for me. That was going to be my question

872
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,280
Speaker 1: is how having clients in your office on a regular

873
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: basis or at regular intervals differs between what you do

874
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: in the advice column or on the podcast. So that

875
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: that makes so much sense. How how else does that work?

876
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: If someone writes a letter to the column, what can

877
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: they expect? Right? So, so in our offices, I think

878
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 1: it's a lot about what I like to call timing

879
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 1: and dosage. So when somebody is coming in with something,

880
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 1: what is the timing of when you're going to help

881
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: them to see something. What are they ready to hear?

882
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 1: Because if you come into early, then they have this

883
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: big wall up because they feel so much shame around it.

884
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: You're not going to really make any change for them.

885
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 1: You're not going to help them see something because they're

886
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: so again, they feel so much shame around it, they're

887
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: not ready to look at it. Um And the other

888
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: thing is dosage. So what is the right time? But

889
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: then how much in that session are you going to

890
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: push them? Because you've got to push them, but then

891
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: how much before it becomes counterproductive? So we're always thinking

892
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 1: about that in the room in a clinical session. On

893
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: the podcast, so there's a column where I respond in

894
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: writing to people, and then there is and what I

895
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: really do is help them to see something as I

896
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: would in the therapy room. I really kind of put

897
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: it all out there. Here is what I think you

898
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 1: aren't seeing, and here are your blind spots, and here's

899
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: what I want you to look at. But the beauty

900
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: of the podcast is that it takes it a step further,

901
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: which is that we get to see what those conversations

902
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 1: actually sound like. So it's a back and forth, it's

903
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: an eye thow and I do it with another therapist,

904
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,479
Speaker 1: Guy Winch, who's also a fellow TED talker and also

905
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: a fellow author. And what's great is they get too

906
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: therapists for the price of one, basically, which is which

907
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 1: is that if he's pushing, I can kind of hold

908
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: space and contain the person, or if I'm pushing, he

909
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: can do that. So you have these two people working together, um,

910
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: and I think it makes us move faster because you

911
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: have both of us, so we can move really fast

912
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: in those sessions. And then you have that piece of

913
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: you know, very satisfying. I think when we go back

914
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: to story, Um, what happened? What was the end of

915
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: the story. And I think that then people can say, oh,

916
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: I can use that advice in my own life, even

917
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: if I don't have that exact situation going on. That

918
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: was really helpful and I can use that in you know,

919
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 1: different ways. That is so cool. And and I have

920
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: a question if you don't mind me veering into the

921
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,720
Speaker 1: personal for a moment, because you just said something so interesting.

922
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: When you and Guy are doing the podcast together, if

923
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: he's pushing, you can old space and vice versa. How

924
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 1: as a person whose brain is so trained to pick

925
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: up on what people are really saying to see their patterns,

926
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: to to respond with help. How do you draw a

927
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 1: line in your life as Lorie you know, Laura mother,

928
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: Lauria friend, Laura partner, Lauria therapist. How in the world

929
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: do you find that balance? Because I feel like if

930
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: I had your wealth of knowledge, I would just be

931
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: trying to give everybody advice all the time, which probably

932
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: makes your life a nightmare if you do it. How

933
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 1: do you keep those two parts of your brain and

934
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: your heart? Really, because therapy is based in so much empathy,

935
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:37,879
Speaker 1: how do you keep those separated? I think that what

936
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 1: we do is so emotionally intense that we really truly

937
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: care about every single patient that we see. We think

938
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: about them between sessions, you know, and and and people

939
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: were surprised by this in my book and maybe you

940
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: should talk to someone that there was so much love there.

941
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,879
Speaker 1: And people are afraid to use that word, like, oh,

942
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: it's crushing boundaries or it gets me, See it doesn't.

943
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,879
Speaker 1: You're just too human beings. We're not talking about romantic love.

944
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 1: We're talking about human to human love. And when you

945
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: really when people show you the truth of who they are,

946
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: you cannot help but love them. And people out in

947
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: the world are so afraid of sharing the truth of

948
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: who they are for fear that people will not love them.

949
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 1: They say, if people really knew who I am, if

950
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: they knew all these parts of myself that I feel

951
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: mortified by, then they won't love me. And the reality is,

952
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: if you show the truth of who you are to

953
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: the right audience, so choose your audience. Well, that's where

954
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: all the love is going to come from. And I

955
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: think that's where that's what relationships are built on. And

956
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: so when you say, you know, how do you separate that,

957
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 1: I feel like it's it's it's not depleting, it's the opposite.

958
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: It's energizing. It makes you feel really positive about the

959
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 1: human condition. I love that. I love that. So balance

960
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: is easier than I thought it might have been, right

961
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: because I think it makes me really optimistic about the world.

962
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: And we live in a really difficult world, so it's

963
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 1: hard to be optimistic about it. But when you deal

964
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: with people one on one as opposed to all of

965
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: the noise that's out there, and you hear them, and

966
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: you hear them kind of untangle things, and you hear them,

967
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: you know, really shift in their lives in ways that

968
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: are just so profound. It gives you so much optimism

969
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: about all of our capacity to change, not only individually

970
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 1: on that individual level, but on a societal level as well. Yeah,

971
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: I think that being able to connect with each other

972
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 1: has always been the root of love for me, no

973
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 1: matter what part of the country I've been in, how

974
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: people vote, what they believe in any time I've been

975
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: able to sit with somebody one on one who might

976
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: on paper look like they believe all the things opposite

977
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: to what I do, we find that we have so

978
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: much in common and we can kind of break down

979
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: the noise that we've been taught to to sort of

980
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: whether it's consciously or subconsciously, that we've been taught to

981
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: believe about each other. And I think that I think

982
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 1: that's such an important thing for us moving forward as

983
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: a society, right. And part of that is about knowing

984
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: how to listen. I don't think a lot of us

985
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 1: had good modeling for what it means to listen. And

986
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:20,399
Speaker 1: so when I think about even in couples, when one

987
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 1: person comes to the other person with something, so often

988
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 1: we listen in the way that we want to be

989
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: listened to, but not in the way that the other

990
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: person needs. So if you can ask someone at the

991
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: beginning of a conversation, I'm here, how can I be

992
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: helpful to you right now? What is it that you're

993
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: needing right now? So simple? And then they sit back

994
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: and they say, wait a minute, what do I need

995
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: right now? Oh? Right now? I just want to tell

996
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: you what happened. I'm really you know, I'm really like

997
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 1: riled up around this. I really just want to tell

998
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 1: you what happened. I just want to vent right now.

999
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: Or I really need a hug right now, or I

1000
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 1: really want to hear what you think about this because

1001
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,359
Speaker 1: I'm really confused and I need another opinion about this,

1002
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: or I really need help being up with a solution.

1003
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 1: Right Those are very different conversations, but at least you

1004
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: know what the person needs, and maybe in a different

1005
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 1: conversation that person will need something different. Right But maybe

1006
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 1: when something just happens, they need X, Y or Z,

1007
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 1: and in a different conversation they're going to need something else.

1008
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: And that it is really important because sometimes we really

1009
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: want to tell people things like I want to tell

1010
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:24,720
Speaker 1: you what I think about this, or I see what

1011
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: happened here and I have some really good advice for you,

1012
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 1: But you can't do that if they aren't wanting that

1013
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 1: in that moment, right, And so listening is about being present.

1014
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: It's about knowing what is it that they need so

1015
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 1: that they feel understood in this moment, and maybe they

1016
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 1: need something else and they will tell you what they need.

1017
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: And I think as a parent that's such a good

1018
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: lesson too, because so often our kids come to us

1019
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 1: and they say things like this happened, and then we

1020
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 1: try to give them advice and try to fix it

1021
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,320
Speaker 1: for them, or we try to take away their feelings

1022
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 1: and we give them the message that like, oh no,

1023
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 1: don't be sad, Hey, let's go get ice cream, right,

1024
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: or oh you're worried about that, that's nothing to worry about,

1025
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 1: But they really are worried. So we try to talk

1026
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: people out of their feelings that make us uncomfortable. M hmm,

1027
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 1: And that's really about our discomfort and it becomes not

1028
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 1: about them anymore. Don't try to talk people out of

1029
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: how they feel. Let them feel how they feel, even

1030
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 1: if it makes you a little bit uncomfortable. Yeah. And

1031
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 1: I think if if you can recategorize the responsibility of

1032
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 1: a of a friend or a listener. As being a

1033
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 1: human who holds space for the person you care about,

1034
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: then you can hold space for whatever they need to

1035
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: put in it, for whatever their feelings are. And as

1036
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 1: a person personally who wants to help so much that

1037
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: I can, I can jump into that role of being like, well,

1038
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 1: what if we did this? What what if do you

1039
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: think this would make you feel better? And how could

1040
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: I help you? You know, find a solution? And I've

1041
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: had to learn as a friend not to jump to

1042
00:56:57,880 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: trying to make the people I love feel better as

1043
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,800
Speaker 1: quickly as possible, but to holding a container for them.

1044
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: And there's something about the visual of holding a container.

1045
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: Holding that space to me feels like such a sacred

1046
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: responsibility and act of love as a friend that it

1047
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: has allowed me to stop my let me figure out

1048
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: how I can help you fix this immediate response right,

1049
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: because it's hard for us to see the people that

1050
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 1: we care about suffer and what we want to do

1051
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: is we want to take their suffering away, but we're

1052
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: not doing it in a way that it is actually

1053
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: helpful to them. And the bottom line is that we

1054
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: can't take their suffering away. What we could do is

1055
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: we can help them and I really truly feel as

1056
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: a therapist, I've seen this with every single person that

1057
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: I've seen, that they have the answers inside of them.

1058
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: And our job is therapists, and I think our job,

1059
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 1: just as humans to one another, is to help people

1060
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 1: hear themselves, to give them the space to to let

1061
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: that voice be heard without all the louder outside voices

1062
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: shutting down that voice of knowing, that place of knowing

1063
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 1: that we all have inside. Yeah, I really love that

1064
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: when you think about way as we can lean into

1065
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 1: our knowing, you know things we can do to improve

1066
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: our emotional well being. I'm curious what you believe some

1067
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: of those concrete things are that we could offer to

1068
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: our listeners and and have any of those concrete steps

1069
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: people can take to improve their emotional well being changed

1070
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: given the past year and and the pandemic, or do

1071
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: you feel like it's your tips are the same. I

1072
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 1: feel like they're similar. I feel like change is hard.

1073
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: We had to go through a lot of change in

1074
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: the last year, and in general, change is really hard.

1075
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 1: And I think that when I talk about that place

1076
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 1: of knowing, a lot of times people know what they

1077
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 1: need to do, like this is not a good relationship

1078
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 1: for me, or I need a different job, or I

1079
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 1: need to get my addiction under control, or you know,

1080
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: whatever it is. They know what they need to do,

1081
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: but they aren't ready to make the change. And I

1082
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: think that a lot of people need to understand more

1083
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 1: about what change is. Change isn't this thing of you

1084
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: make a decision to change and boom, you've changed. Sometimes

1085
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 1: that can happen. Usually it doesn't think about New Year's resolutions.

1086
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 1: They just you know, why why do they fail? Because

1087
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: there are so many stages to change and they go

1088
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 1: like this. There's the pre contemplation stage where you don't

1089
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: even know you're thinking about changing. Then there's the contemplation

1090
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: stage where you're starting to think about it, Oh maybe

1091
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: I should make this change, but you're not ready yet.

1092
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 1: Then there's the preparation stage where you're starting to prepare,

1093
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 1: you're getting used to it. You're preparing logistically for the

1094
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,919
Speaker 1: change and also emotionally for the change. And then there's

1095
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: action where you make the change. And most people think

1096
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: it ends there at action. It doesn't. Action is the beginning.

1097
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: What happens next is maintenance, and maintenance maintenance is how

1098
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 1: do I maintain the change? And a lot of people

1099
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 1: think that if I make a change and then I

1100
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: slip back, like you call the partner at at three

1101
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 1: in the morning, because you slip back and you got

1102
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: lonely or you were supposed to, you know, be eating

1103
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: more healthy and then you didn't, and oh, well I failed.

1104
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: I'm incapable of that. No. Built into maintenance is that

1105
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: it's not going to be linear. You're gonna have peaks

1106
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 1: and valleys and things are going to happen, and you

1107
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 1: just know that, Okay, this happened again. Going back to

1108
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 1: kindness to ourselves and self compassion, be really kind to yourself.

1109
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: Of course, it's hard to change, and then you just

1110
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 1: get back on track and you know that you're going

1111
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: to slip back, and that's just part of being human.

1112
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 1: And I think people need to understand what they can

1113
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 1: do in therapies, understand why this change is so hard,

1114
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: because change and loss are tied together. A lot of

1115
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 1: times we we cling to the familiar. So we might say, oh,

1116
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 1: I don't really like the situation I'm in, but at

1117
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: least I know it. At least it's familiar. And humans

1118
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: don't do well with uncertainty. And so if you make

1119
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 1: a change, you have to leave something that's familiar, even

1120
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: if you don't like it, and go to something that

1121
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 1: is unfamiliar and uncertain, which can make people so anxious

1122
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: that even though it's a positive change, they won't do

1123
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 1: it because they think it's almost like they're plunged into

1124
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 1: this like foreign land where they don't know the culture

1125
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 1: or the language, or the landmarks or the directions, and

1126
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 1: they feel like, I don't know how to go there,

1127
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 1: I don't know how to be in this new place.

1128
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 1: But this new place is really healthy for them. So

1129
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 1: I think people need to understand why change is hard,

1130
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 1: how it serves them to stay in the current situation.

1131
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: Um Sometimes staying in the current situation can help serve

1132
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 1: you by it perpetuates that story, like I'm unlovable, so

1133
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to stay with a person who makes me

1134
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: feel unlovable because that corroborates my story, as opposed to

1135
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to go find someone healthy for me and

1136
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to see that I'm actually lovable. They're scared

1137
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: to do that, and I think it's hard to admit

1138
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: that sometimes our subconscious mind is putting us in those positions,

1139
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: is trying to validate even the worst story. When you

1140
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: talk about change being hard, it's so spot on. I mean,

1141
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 1: this has been a year filled with change for so

1142
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,200
Speaker 1: many people. And and I'm curious, you know, from from

1143
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 1: the macro of the work you do for us and

1144
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 1: teaching so many of us how to look within, what's

1145
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 1: been a change for you and your family during the pandemic.

1146
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 1: Did you have to change the way you work and

1147
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 1: move mostly online or or did you all pick up

1148
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: a family quarantine hobby. I mean, so many things I

1149
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 1: think are new this year. Well, I think it's kind

1150
01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 1: of the both, and that makes this taboo to talk

1151
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 1: about that there's been so much devastation and so much

1152
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 1: pain and loss that I think people feel like when

1153
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 1: we were talking about the hierarchy of pain earlier, there's

1154
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 1: this hierarchy of grief where people feel like, well, if

1155
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 1: it's not loss of life, loss of health, loss of

1156
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 1: a job, which many many people experienced with COVID, then

1157
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 1: I can't talk about any kind of loss, right And

1158
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 1: so in therapy a lot of people have come to

1159
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 1: me and said, I'm really struggling, here's why, and they

1160
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 1: feel like they can't talk about it with anybody else.

1161
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 1: And once they do, they start to feel like, oh,

1162
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: it's okay that I feel this way, that I feel lost,

1163
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: even though nobody in my circle died. It's okay that

1164
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 1: I can talk about other kinds of loss that I've experienced.

1165
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 1: But I think the other thing that's even more taboo

1166
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 1: than that is talking about what we've gained, because people

1167
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 1: feel like I can't talk about anything positive in the

1168
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 1: face of so much loss, And yes you can. And

1169
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: here are some of the things that people have gained.

1170
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 1: People have said, I've realized that family time is really

1171
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 1: important to me, that family dinner is really important to me,

1172
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 1: and I'm going to make sure that I separate my

1173
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 1: work life from my family life in a way. I'm

1174
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 1: going to try to find a way to make this

1175
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 1: more manageable because I was really drowning in my work.

1176
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 1: Some people have said, oh, I don't need to commute

1177
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 1: an hour every day back and forth. I really didn't

1178
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 1: like that time. I lost a lot, and I'm going

1179
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 1: to figure out if there's a way to make my

1180
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 1: work life more flexible. Um. Some people have said, like,

1181
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 1: this is something happened to me. I used to go

1182
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 1: to the office every day and I would put on

1183
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 1: my work clothes, and I would not be able to

1184
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: get outside during the day, even if I had half

1185
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 1: an hour in between things, because I didn't want to

1186
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:13,439
Speaker 1: go take a walk. I would get all messed up,

1187
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 1: and I didn't have the right clothes and those kinds

1188
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 1: of things. Now, working from home, I'll just go outside

1189
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 1: and take a walk for half an hour, or you know,

1190
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,919
Speaker 1: talk to a friend or whatever I I normally felt

1191
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 1: like I couldn't do when I was at the office,

1192
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 1: And I think it really showed me that there are

1193
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 1: other ways to be right. There are other ways too

1194
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: for self care, how do we take care of ourselves

1195
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 1: and how important that is, how much it really changes

1196
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 1: the entire tenor of the day when you start building

1197
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 1: little things into the day to take care of yourself,

1198
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:46,920
Speaker 1: even things like you know, we can just sit there

1199
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 1: and go through emails all day, and to say I'm

1200
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,480
Speaker 1: going to step away for ten minutes and I'm going

1201
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: to walk outside or look outside, or I'm going to

1202
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 1: go eat something, whatever it is. I think we've become

1203
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 1: more mindful of about the rhythm of our days because

1204
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 1: they had to slow down. Mm hmm. Yeah. Something that's

1205
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 1: been so interesting for me for years I've had a

1206
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 1: goal of keeping bees, you know. I think maybe that

1207
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: ties back to living in a really small town for

1208
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: years as a kid and and seeing, you know, bee

1209
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 1: hives on some of the ranches near where I lived.

1210
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: I just love them, and I think they're such incredible

1211
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 1: little creatures. And I've been talking about this for a

1212
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 1: long time. I even started planting things in my garden

1213
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 1: that I know bees love. And one week into the

1214
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 1: shutdown in March, I discovered a massive beehive that had

1215
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 1: built itself into the woodpile in my backyard and I thought,

1216
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is this my field of dreams.

1217
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:51,959
Speaker 1: I haven't even built it yet, and they already came,

1218
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 1: what's going on here? I spoke this and do existence,

1219
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 1: and I had some guys come and help me rescue

1220
01:05:57,680 --> 01:05:59,479
Speaker 1: the bees, and we put them in a proper hive

1221
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 1: box that, you know, I could maintain them. And I've

1222
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 1: been keeping these bees all year, and our rhythm together

1223
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: and the way I watched them work for each other,

1224
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: and the way that they build structures and the way

1225
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 1: that they prioritize each other. In the months at the

1226
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 1: end of last summer when there were all of those

1227
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 1: horrific fires, and you know, it was a hundred and

1228
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 1: fifteen hundred and twenty degrees in l a every day

1229
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 1: in the evenings. As soon as the sun would go down,

1230
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 1: the bees much like penguins do, and they huddle up

1231
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: to hold each other and keep each other warm. The

1232
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 1: bees would rotate in lines and they'd get out on

1233
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: the little front porch of the hive and they'd fan

1234
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 1: their wings as fast as they could toward the door,

1235
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 1: and they were blowing cooler air in, and they were

1236
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 1: circulating cooler air into the hive. And they did it

1237
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 1: every night during this heat wave. And I would just

1238
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 1: watch them, and they taught me so much about how

1239
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:58,680
Speaker 1: you are supposed to serve your community and how it's

1240
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 1: possible to take care of each other. And it was

1241
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 1: it makes me kind of emotional. It was this wild

1242
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: experience while so many of our communities were falling apart,

1243
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 1: and we're finally acknowledging the harm that our society has

1244
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 1: done to members of society. I watched these bees just

1245
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 1: build this community and quite literally grow it. I mean

1246
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:23,439
Speaker 1: I keep having to add boxes to the hive because

1247
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 1: they keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And that

1248
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 1: for me was such a sort of mirroring and an

1249
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 1: opposite of what we were all going through. It was.

1250
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: It was so inspiring to me. And I never thought that,

1251
01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:43,439
Speaker 1: you know, my silver lining in in such a tough year,

1252
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 1: one of my silver linings would be these funny little creatures,

1253
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 1: but they are. They've been such a cool thing for

1254
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 1: me and something I certainly look back on a very

1255
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:57,520
Speaker 1: tough time for the world. That's that's a point of

1256
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:00,160
Speaker 1: gratitude for me when I'm watching you talk about this

1257
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 1: year just lighting up and I'm fascinated by it. Because

1258
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 1: in my book, Charlotte, one of the young women who's

1259
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 1: sort of having trouble in relationships, one of the things

1260
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 1: she talks about is her dream of beekeeping. There's a

1261
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:17,720
Speaker 1: whole chapter called the Bees, and I think she was

1262
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 1: talking about it because she felt so disconnected and she

1263
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: had a very similar reaction to it. She had a

1264
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,720
Speaker 1: very similar idea of like, you know, why she was

1265
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 1: so moved by bees, And I think when we connect

1266
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:32,400
Speaker 1: to nature, we're reminded that we are all connected to

1267
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,639
Speaker 1: one another. It's such a reminder that that image of

1268
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:37,559
Speaker 1: all of the bees flapping their wings to kind of

1269
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:40,840
Speaker 1: cool things off and I think we've seen that during

1270
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 1: the pandemic, where we've become much more aware of how

1271
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:48,559
Speaker 1: we're connected within our communities, where people were bringing meals

1272
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:52,040
Speaker 1: to other people, we were checking in on other people.

1273
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 1: We were saying, how can I help you? People who

1274
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:57,960
Speaker 1: were more vulnerable, the elderly people in our communities, people

1275
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:01,520
Speaker 1: who had pre existing conditions that we're making them more vulnerable,

1276
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:05,559
Speaker 1: checking in on people who maybe we're alone, and we thought,

1277
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:07,440
Speaker 1: you know, we want to make sure they stay connected.

1278
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 1: And and seeing our kids, I think our kids being

1279
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:13,599
Speaker 1: really aware of how connected we are and just making

1280
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:17,200
Speaker 1: sure that that everybody was being taken care of. It

1281
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:19,639
Speaker 1: was something very different from how we are in daily life,

1282
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 1: where we're so involved in our own lives and our

1283
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 1: own little nuclear families that we we aren't looking at

1284
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 1: the big picture. And I think that metaphor with the

1285
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 1: bees is just beautiful and I hope we can all

1286
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:36,360
Speaker 1: take something away from that. I highly recommend if you

1287
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 1: ever you know you, or or anyone listening at home,

1288
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: if you ever get the chance to visit anyone or

1289
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:46,760
Speaker 1: anywhere where there's hives, spend some time because they're they're

1290
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 1: very very cool. Oh and before I Forget your book

1291
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 1: is being developed into a TV show. Yes, it's very exciting.

1292
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that. Yeah. And the reason that I'm

1293
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 1: so glad is because I feel like, to me, this

1294
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 1: is a show not about a therapist, but a show

1295
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 1: about a person who happens to be a therapist. And

1296
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 1: I think that distinction is very important because you know,

1297
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:13,200
Speaker 1: when you look at how therapists have been portrayed in

1298
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 1: the media, there are these kind of two tropes. Right

1299
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:18,679
Speaker 1: There's like the brick wall, the person who says nothing,

1300
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 1: and you know, nobody wants to go talk to a

1301
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 1: brick wall or a robot. And I think the other

1302
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 1: one is like the therapist who is really competent in

1303
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 1: the therapy room, but they're a hot mess outside of

1304
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 1: the therapy room and they're like crossing all these boundaries

1305
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 1: with their patients and that's just not real either. At

1306
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:36,640
Speaker 1: the beginning of maybe you should talk to someone, I

1307
01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:39,800
Speaker 1: say that my most significant credential is that I'm a

1308
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:42,760
Speaker 1: card carrying member of the human race. That I know

1309
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 1: what it's like to be a person in the world.

1310
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:46,760
Speaker 1: I know what it's like to struggle, and I think

1311
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:49,600
Speaker 1: that all of us as therapists. We use our humanity

1312
01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:53,120
Speaker 1: to help other people through their struggles, not that we

1313
01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: talk about ourselves, but we use the fact that we've

1314
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 1: experienced life to be able to help people with their

1315
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 1: experiences in life. And so on the TV series, I

1316
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:05,719
Speaker 1: feel like, maybe you should talk to someone has really

1317
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 1: opened up all of these conversations about emotional health and

1318
01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:12,000
Speaker 1: help people to kind of look at themselves with more

1319
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:16,000
Speaker 1: compassion and understanding and growth and see their blind spots.

1320
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 1: And I feel like we're going to do this TV

1321
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:21,599
Speaker 1: series that is going to include all of the humor

1322
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 1: and the ridiculous that I like to say, the ridiculousness

1323
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 1: of the human condition because we are human beings are

1324
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:30,639
Speaker 1: ridiculous and we need to be able to laugh at ourselves, right,

1325
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 1: and then just a real window into what makes us human.

1326
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:38,280
Speaker 1: And so I am so excited for the TV series.

1327
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:41,519
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to see it. When when can we

1328
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 1: expect it? Where will it be? We're developing it right now.

1329
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,799
Speaker 1: It will be at ABC. We got a little delayed

1330
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 1: because of COVID, but I'm really excited for it. I

1331
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:54,080
Speaker 1: can't wait. Laurie. My favorite thing to ask everyone who

1332
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 1: comes on the podcast is the question I'm about to

1333
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:00,640
Speaker 1: ask you, and I I do feel like you encourage

1334
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:05,080
Speaker 1: this energy and you know, this permission to explore and

1335
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 1: grow for so many of us. But I wonder what

1336
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 1: in your life feels like a work in progress. I

1337
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 1: would say every everything about life is a work in progress.

1338
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 1: I was thinking about my dad died at the beginning

1339
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 1: of the pandemic, not of COVID, but he had been sick,

1340
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 1: thank you, and he was like just the sweetest man,

1341
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:33,280
Speaker 1: and he was my son's best friend. And when we

1342
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:34,960
Speaker 1: when we were going through all of this in the

1343
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 1: middle of COVID, and you couldn't have you know, people

1344
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 1: calm and all of that, and we were trying to decide,

1345
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:41,519
Speaker 1: you know, what do we say on on the on

1346
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 1: the gravestone, and you know, all of those things. It

1347
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 1: was just so surreal. And I was noticing that I

1348
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:49,479
Speaker 1: said the year on everyone. I was walking around the

1349
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 1: cemetery and it said the year of people's birth and

1350
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:54,200
Speaker 1: the year of their deaths, and in between there was

1351
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 1: always a dash like here's where they lived. And I

1352
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:58,680
Speaker 1: was thinking about when you just asked me about a

1353
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:01,960
Speaker 1: work in progress, it's the dash in which we live.

1354
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:05,920
Speaker 1: We are all living in that dash between the year

1355
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:08,840
Speaker 1: we were born and the year we will die, and

1356
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 1: that dash is such a work in progress. So much

1357
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:15,519
Speaker 1: happens there, but we have to be intentional. And I

1358
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:17,759
Speaker 1: think that all of the work that I do, whether

1359
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 1: it's the book or the Ted Talk or the column

1360
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:24,919
Speaker 1: or the podcast, having these conversations with you, it's about

1361
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:29,720
Speaker 1: being intentional about what we do with that dash. And

1362
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:32,240
Speaker 1: that's why I love your podcast, because I feel like

1363
01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 1: everyone is a work in progress, and these conversations are

1364
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:38,920
Speaker 1: helping us to be more intentional about what happens in

1365
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 1: that dash. I really that that will stick with me,

1366
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:45,439
Speaker 1: that notion of living in the dash. I I feel

1367
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:47,519
Speaker 1: so inspired by it. I see it, you know, not

1368
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:50,080
Speaker 1: to be a cheesy social media highlight real person, but

1369
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:52,519
Speaker 1: I'm like, that feels like a hashtag and maybe a

1370
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:56,680
Speaker 1: retreat and maybe a series of some sort I don't know,

1371
01:13:56,760 --> 01:14:01,000
Speaker 1: but I find that to be a really good zinger

1372
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 1: of a phrase. I like that a lot. Well, LORI

1373
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 1: thank you so much. I honestly I feel I feel

1374
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:10,759
Speaker 1: like I'm buzzing right now. I'm on such an emotional high.

1375
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,639
Speaker 1: I feel excited and inspired, and I'm I'm sure everyone

1376
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 1: who's been listening to this conversation today does too. We

1377
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:20,040
Speaker 1: are very grateful for you taking the time. Well, I'm

1378
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:22,519
Speaker 1: such a fan of your podcast, and thank you so

1379
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 1: much for having this conversation. And uh gosh, yeah, I

1380
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 1: just I hope I get to see you again soon.

1381
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 1: You're in l A, so now you know both Angelina's.

1382
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 1: That's right, awesome, Thank you so much. Yeah, my pleasure.