Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Jason
Speaker 1: Kelly and I'm Carol Master. Welcome to the Bloomberg Business
Speaker 1: Week Extra. It's our weekly podcast, bring you an in
Speaker 1: depth conversation every word that you won't hear anywhere else
Speaker 1: podcast on podcast this week Carol Wondering chief operating officer,
Speaker 1: Jenn Sergeant. We went deep with her, not just about
Speaker 1: the content that wonder He's producing, but the business model
Speaker 1: and maybe more importantly, the data and what she is learning,
Speaker 1: what Wondering is learning about their customer. And we should
Speaker 1: say uh right at the top, and we've alluded to
Speaker 1: this that we do have a business relationship with Wondering
Speaker 1: in part because one of the best friends that we
Speaker 1: have at this show, Joe No Sarah, he was on
Speaker 1: our air earlier. He of course hosted The Shrink next Door,
Speaker 1: the Runaway Hit. I believe it's fair to say of
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. So we there's your disclaimer. Jen. Really nice
Speaker 1: to have you with us. Thank you, Jason, thank you,
Speaker 1: Carol Um. I'm pleased to be here, so tell us
Speaker 1: about the podcast podcast business right here. In July, I
Speaker 1: listened to a ton of podcasts I'm are always saying
Speaker 1: to Carol, like, you gotta listen this, you gotta listen
Speaker 1: to this. I drive for insane on that. But it
Speaker 1: does feel like podcasts are having a bit of a
Speaker 1: moment here in the pandemic. What's going on? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: say more than a moment. I mean this has been
Speaker 1: a movement for for years now, with UM technology making
Speaker 1: it easier for consumers to access great content and that
Speaker 1: being combined with so much amazing podcast content coming into
Speaker 1: the market. But what we've seen during the pandemic is
Speaker 1: actually people really leaning into listening to podcast And I
Speaker 1: think as we've all been social distancing and changing our
Speaker 1: habits and spending more time at home, UH, consumers have
Speaker 1: found all these different ways to be listening to podcast,
Speaker 1: whether it's cooking or gardening, or walking the dog, UM
Speaker 1: or just cleaning around the house. Podcast are a great
Speaker 1: piece of kind of media to take with you on
Speaker 1: the go and and really be able to kind of
Speaker 1: multitask something else around your house. And as a result, UM,
Speaker 1: we we've really seen UM some some great list in
Speaker 1: listening UM recently, and we've also seen shifts in behavior
Speaker 1: where you know, prior to the pandemic, it was all
Speaker 1: about commuting and your time at the gym, and and
Speaker 1: those were two of the big use cases for for podcasts.
Speaker 1: But now we see listening throughout the day and on
Speaker 1: the weekends and and just um, you know, we can
Speaker 1: see consumers really um listening in a different way. And
Speaker 1: I have a lot of series of of why that's
Speaker 1: happening right now. But UM, it's been a really positive
Speaker 1: time for podcasts. I'll also say that, you know, just
Speaker 1: on the production side of things, UM, we've been able
Speaker 1: to keep producing podcasts during the pandemic. And I think
Speaker 1: you know, UM, I mean, I don't know about YouTube,
Speaker 1: but I've kind of caught up on my Netflix and
Speaker 1: my Hulu and and and with TV production on hold
Speaker 1: right now, UM, it's this source of new content. So
Speaker 1: uh for wandery but but all the podcasting UM publishers
Speaker 1: out there, most of us have been able to adapt
Speaker 1: and to really um keep keep things moving with new content.
Speaker 1: We've seen interest from talent who would otherwise be busy
Speaker 1: with TV production getting involved in podcasts. So for the
Speaker 1: whole ecosystem, I think we've we've seen a great list.
Speaker 1: That's so funny that you said that because just before
Speaker 1: just it was like, you gotta watch this because and
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I've been running out of things
Speaker 1: to watch. What's interesting is I'm curious you said that
Speaker 1: kind of the trends are change changing. It's not just
Speaker 1: people commuting obviously anymore, but they're listening at all different times.
Speaker 1: What are people listening to? Jen? Yeah, so, UM, well,
Speaker 1: especially when the stay at home where orders first happened,
Speaker 1: we saw a lot of people UM listening to news, UM,
Speaker 1: listening to UM, to a current information UM. But then
Speaker 1: we also it's all that balanced with UM comedy and
Speaker 1: entertainment and things that would give people kind of a
Speaker 1: break in an escape UM, which is not surprising. UM.
Speaker 1: Now we're seeing that that pretty much all categories are
Speaker 1: you know, receiving a lot of listenership at this point,
Speaker 1: but but definitely at the start of the pandemic it
Speaker 1: was news, entertainment and and personal growth is the other
Speaker 1: diner category self help personal growth. So you know, it's interesting,
Speaker 1: Jen Um. I was thinking about you guys in terms
Speaker 1: of the type of content you create, and I'm almost
Speaker 1: thinking to some extent it feels like a little bit
Speaker 1: like a Disney approach where content can ultimately have multiple
Speaker 1: revenue streams online, podcast streaming, etcetera. And I do wonder
Speaker 1: how you approach it. How do you look at when
Speaker 1: you're you know, thinking about either acquiring or producing some content,
Speaker 1: are you thinking about, Okay, how can we spread this
Speaker 1: out as much as possible? Yes, and that has absolutely
Speaker 1: been evolving as as we've grown. Um. You know, we're
Speaker 1: known for our immersive, character driven storytelling. We really try
Speaker 1: to put you the listener, in the middle of the
Speaker 1: story and get you completely you know, enveloped in it. UM.
Speaker 1: And we we think about it now as um more
Speaker 1: than just a podcast. We really think about developing a
Speaker 1: story that then can take on a life of its own. UM.
Speaker 1: I mean, our our broader goal is really to be
Speaker 1: the first place consumers think of when they think of
Speaker 1: high quality, immersive storytelling. And today that happens to be
Speaker 1: with podcasts. But we know in the future it is
Speaker 1: very likely that a consumer could encounter us first as
Speaker 1: a TV show or a book, um, and then make
Speaker 1: their way back to the podcast UM. And so UM.
Speaker 1: You know, as we think about different revenue streams, I mean,
Speaker 1: advertising is certainly our bread and butter, and was one
Speaker 1: of the earliest UM, you know, revenue streams to emerge
Speaker 1: for us and everyone else in podcasting. UM. But as
Speaker 1: we started to create hits like The Next Door, like
Speaker 1: Dr Death, UM, we saw this opportunity to develop the
Speaker 1: I P into television shows. And at this point, sixteen
Speaker 1: of our projects are in various stages of TV development. UM.
Speaker 1: We have one of our projects UM that is on
Speaker 1: its way to becoming a book. UM. And and this
Speaker 1: licensing side of it is is not just real but
Speaker 1: to your Disney analogy, I mean I I think we
Speaker 1: absolutely see it expanding that way. So when we green
Speaker 1: light stories now we think, oh, could this be a
Speaker 1: TV show? Could? I mean we certainly didn't. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: when we were working with joannas Sarah first right next Door,
Speaker 1: we weren't thinking, oh, this would be so perfect for
Speaker 1: Paul Rudd and Harold but you're doing it. But but
Speaker 1: after the fact, yeah, it totally makes sense. It makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense when you think if you've listened
Speaker 1: to The Street Next Story and you're like, yep, that
Speaker 1: absolutely checks out. I can see that on the screen absolutely.
Speaker 1: So talk to us about the subscription model, because I
Speaker 1: feel like that's something that a lot of podcast publishers
Speaker 1: have been wrestling with and you know, we've seen the
Speaker 1: Spotify model, we've seen Luminary, We've seen others sort of
Speaker 1: go for this Stitcher I believe as well as a
Speaker 1: premium product. Tell us about the conversations to sort of
Speaker 1: get one dree to that point and how you think
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, I mean, part of our motivation UM
Speaker 1: was really that our listeners were asking for an app.
Speaker 1: They were asking for a better way, an easier way
Speaker 1: to access wondering shows and content, to be able to
Speaker 1: binge content, especially mini series, to be able to listen
Speaker 1: to add three and UM particular to our style of storytelling,
Speaker 1: we do a lot of serialized mini series and serialized
Speaker 1: always on shows and UM for many of our shows
Speaker 1: like a Business Wars or or Tides of History, UM, etcetera,
Speaker 1: that were we have dozens of seasons at this point,
Speaker 1: and your average podcast app doesn't allow you to navigate
Speaker 1: elegantly between seasons. And so even just tracking down the
Speaker 1: season of Business Wars that you want to listen to
Speaker 1: is it's hard in a general market app. And when
Speaker 1: we looked around at the market, we felt like that's
Speaker 1: that's what that's what was out there. I mean, Stitcher, Luminary, Apple,
Speaker 1: They're all great apps, but their general market one size
Speaker 1: fits all apps, and we really wanted to create a
Speaker 1: curated experience. We wanted it to be on brand, we
Speaker 1: wanted it to feel immersive and premium like our our
Speaker 1: shows do, and we really just wanted to super serve
Speaker 1: that that wandering listener. UM. That was a big part
Speaker 1: of it. UM. The other piece of it, which is
Speaker 1: you know, was a challenge for us, and I think
Speaker 1: it's a challenge for for most publishers out there. Is
Speaker 1: that we we but but by by distributing our content
Speaker 1: through these third parties, we missed that direct connection with
Speaker 1: the listener and we don't get data back that really
Speaker 1: helps us. And without the data, we're kind of flying
Speaker 1: blind when we're when we're making the next piece of
Speaker 1: content or we're trying to market it. So having some
Speaker 1: first party data that UM that we can use to
Speaker 1: inform our marketing and content decisions is really game changing. UM.
Speaker 1: So that was another part of it for us. UM
Speaker 1: As we thought about creating creating an app like this,
Speaker 1: is it only going to be? And I don't mean only,
Speaker 1: but I mean will it be exclusively wondering content or
Speaker 1: will you open it up to others that kind of
Speaker 1: fit within the wondering world. Yeah, so it will be
Speaker 1: both wondering content and wondering partner content. But we're not
Speaker 1: an aggregator. We're not trying to be the Netflix of podcasts,
Speaker 1: and it won't be everything under the sun. It will
Speaker 1: only be podcasts where we have a partnership, whether we've
Speaker 1: partnered with Bloomberg or or someone like UM like uh,
Speaker 1: you know, all Things Comedy or The Athletic, whoever we're
Speaker 1: partnering with that might be within the app, and then
Speaker 1: all of our wondering originals. And we felt like now
Speaker 1: was the time to do this because we had the
Speaker 1: breast and depth of content. We have a beloved catalog,
Speaker 1: we have these big hits UM we had enough UM
Speaker 1: brand equity and listeners to tap into UM to be
Speaker 1: able to launch this type of app. Now, Jen only
Speaker 1: about a minute or so ago. What was something that
Speaker 1: you thought, you know, this may be okay and then
Speaker 1: it just caught fire. Was there was there a specific
Speaker 1: either type of content or a specific piece of content
Speaker 1: that really surprised you on the upside um? You know,
Speaker 1: one that I was recently surprised about was Blood Ties.
Speaker 1: So we had Blood Ties as an audio drama that
Speaker 1: we launched right before the holidays um this past year.
Speaker 1: And we had dabbled in audio drama when Wadrey first launched,
Speaker 1: and for whatever reason, the market wasn't mature enough, maybe
Speaker 1: there wasn't enough demand, but you know, they did okay,
Speaker 1: but we weren't really able to get a blockbuster hit
Speaker 1: out of out of the fiction side of things, and
Speaker 1: Blood Ties was a game changer. It completely um surpassed
Speaker 1: our expectations. We were able to get some great talent
Speaker 1: um Uh Gillian, Jacob, Josh gad Um to voice some
Speaker 1: of the main characters. But it gave us this confidence
Speaker 1: that podcasting is mature enough to support fiction and and
Speaker 1: audio drama, and that opens up a whole new world.
Speaker 1: So we're actually launching Blood Tigh season two this week
Speaker 1: um By you know, it's kind of backed by popular demand,
Speaker 1: and we're now putting a lot more audio drama into productions.
Speaker 1: So that was one that we've been just very pleasantly
Speaker 1: supported with. That was wondering Chief Operating Officer Jen, Sergeant Jason,
Speaker 1: this is an important time for them they launched their
Speaker 1: app last month. They are definitely tapping into people who
Speaker 1: want to listen to new material right because productions have
Speaker 1: been shut down. People aren't making movies, they're not making
Speaker 1: new streaming content, and so folks are looking to podcasts
Speaker 1: to listen to new things. It's a golden age to
Speaker 1: some extent. I loved that you and she joked about
Speaker 1: the fact that you had watched everything on Netflix, even
Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg Business Week Extra. We started doing into
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week Radio live Monday through Friday at two
Speaker 1: pm Lall Street Time. I'm Blue Broke Radio, I'm Carol Massar,
Speaker 1: and I'm Jason Kelly. This is Bloomberg