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Speaker 1: Every marriage ends, it ends in death or divorce, but

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Speaker 1: it ends. If something fifty percent or more of the

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Speaker 1: time ends in pain and heartbreak, it's actually reckless to

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Speaker 1: do it.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, to number one

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Speaker 2: health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every

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Speaker 2: one of you that come back every week to listen, learn,

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Speaker 2: and grow. Today's guest is someone that I've been dying

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Speaker 2: to sit down with ever since I came across as work.

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Speaker 2: It is meaningful, it's powerful, and the best part about

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Speaker 2: it is that it's direct and to the point. Our

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Speaker 2: next guest is the author of How to Stay in Love.

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Speaker 2: Please welcome to On Purpose, James Sexton. James, it is

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Speaker 2: great to meet you. It is great to meet love

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Speaker 2: connecting with you offline for a few moments just before

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Speaker 2: we started, and I mean it. I've been watching your clips,

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Speaker 2: watching your interviews, thinking you have so much value to

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Speaker 2: share with our audience. And I know this is your

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Speaker 2: first time here, but I hope it's going to be

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Speaker 2: the first of many. So thank you for being.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I have to say I'm

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Speaker 1: a fan of the work and I've always found your

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Speaker 1: conversations to be something that actually moved me forward in

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Speaker 1: my own thought process. So it's really really lovely to

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Speaker 1: hear from your team and to come and sit down together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for saying that. That means the world.

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Speaker 2: I want to dive straight in, James, because you know,

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Speaker 2: I think we all hear this statistic and I want

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Speaker 2: to check even if it's true. Is it true that

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Speaker 2: fifty percent of marriages and in divorce actually.

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Speaker 1: A little over fifty percent? Yeah, it is. It's a

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Speaker 1: frightening statistic when you hear it, because I've often said it.

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Speaker 1: It actually creates the legal supposition that marriage is a

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Speaker 1: negligent activity. You know, in the law we have this

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Speaker 1: idea of negligence and recklessness. So negligence is a failure

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Speaker 1: to perceive a substantial but high likelihood of harm, and

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Speaker 1: recklessness is a conscious disregard for a substantial and unjustifiable

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Speaker 1: risk of harm. And you could make the argument that

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Speaker 1: if something fifty percent or more of the time ends

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Speaker 1: in pain and heartbreak, that it's actually reckless to do it.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I'm always vexed by the thought that

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Speaker 1: how do we gauge the success of something? And so

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Speaker 1: divorce is clearly a failure of marriage to sustain. But

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Speaker 1: then you have to think if over fifty percent of

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Speaker 1: marriages and in divorce, how many people are unhappy with

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Speaker 1: the decision they made to marry but stay together for

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Speaker 1: the children, or because they don't want to give away

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Speaker 1: half their belongings if you're conservative and say it's another

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Speaker 1: ten percent, maybe twenty percent. Now we're talking about something

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Speaker 1: that has a fail rate of seventy percent or so.

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Speaker 1: That to me is just shocking. It's stunning. But the

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Speaker 1: statistic that people don't talk about is that eighty six

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Speaker 1: percent of people who divorce are re married within five

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Speaker 1: years of their divorce, which to me actually speaks to

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Speaker 1: the importance of marriage. That someone who's gone through this

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Speaker 1: process it's ended in a manner different than what they

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Speaker 1: had hoped for, right, and they still okay, let's try

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Speaker 1: it again, you know, And what does that say about

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Speaker 1: our need for that connection, how important it is to

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Speaker 1: us as humans. So, yeah, but the unfortunate news is

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Speaker 1: that that is a very high fail rate by any regard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think most things, if you heard something

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Speaker 2: had that fail rate, you'd probably not even try even

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Speaker 2: remotely even with anything. Right, So, if someone said, hey,

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Speaker 2: this investment has a you know, fifty percent chance of

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Speaker 2: failing or going wrong, you'd probably not consider it. Of course,

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Speaker 2: why do people still get married?

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Speaker 1: I think probably for a number of reasons. I mean,

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Speaker 1: one is it's assumed for many years that it's the

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Speaker 1: right thing to do, which is in and of itself strange,

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Speaker 1: because the supposition that one should marry in the face

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Speaker 1: of those statistics is shocking. And even the fact that

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Speaker 1: it's considered indelicate. Like if someone said to me, oh, jim,

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Speaker 1: I'm getting married. The proper response is, oh, congratulations, that's wonderful,

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Speaker 1: But it would be perfectly reasonable to say, really, why,

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Speaker 1: why why are you doing that? Like, what is the

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Speaker 1: problem to which marriage is a solution? What is the

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Speaker 1: reason that this particular permutation of a personal, religious, and

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Speaker 1: or legal relationship is important to you or to your

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Speaker 1: soon to be spouse? But it would be considered terribly rude.

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Speaker 1: I would never, in polite society say to someone, oh,

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Speaker 1: why are you getting married? Because it just feels like

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Speaker 1: such a pessimistic view of things. But it isn't pessimi

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Speaker 1: if you look at the numbers. And I actually think

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Speaker 1: it's an interesting thought exercise for people to have you

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Speaker 1: know why am I getting married? What is the problem

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Speaker 1: to which marriage is a solution? We look at any

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Speaker 1: other technology in our life. You know this mic stand,

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Speaker 1: you know the glass of water, and I can say, okay,

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Speaker 1: the problem to which this is a solution is it

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Speaker 1: would be awkward for me to hold a microphone in

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Speaker 1: my hand, and we need to amplify our voices in

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Speaker 1: some fashion. So you can answer the question pretty easily.

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Speaker 1: But marriage, even asking the questions considered rude.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that I've never thought about it like that, and

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Speaker 2: I'm actually thinking about it as you're saying. It's fascinating

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Speaker 2: that we've confused the emphasis on a wedding versus a

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Speaker 2: marriage too. So right, you spend more time planning your

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Speaker 2: wedding and you do preparing for a marriage.

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Speaker 1: Well, I jokingly talk about the wedding industrial complex. You

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Speaker 1: know that it's it's a you know, billions of dollars business.

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Speaker 1: And of course, like what about it wouldn't be appealing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, weddings are I love it? There? I get

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Speaker 1: misty eyed at weddings. Nothing about my job has made

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Speaker 1: me the slightest bit less excited about a wedding. The

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Speaker 1: idea of two people coming together and standing before family

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Speaker 1: and friends and saying I found my person out of

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Speaker 1: eight billion, I found my person. You know, how could

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Speaker 1: you not get sentimental about that? It's it's such a

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Speaker 1: beautiful thing. And but you know, saying I do isn't

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Speaker 1: saying I can, like at best, it's saying I'll try,

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Speaker 1: and we just don't. We don't say that out loud,

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Speaker 1: and I think we might be poor for it. I

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Speaker 1: think it would be better if we had a more

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Speaker 1: honest and realistic view of marriage, because there's nothing more

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Speaker 1: fun than getting married, but being married is much more challenging,

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Speaker 1: and we spend so much time in the excitement and

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Speaker 1: the sort of pheromones of you know, we're gonna have

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Speaker 1: this cake and we're gonna have this which, by the way,

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Speaker 1: of course, it's so much fun, like at any event

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Speaker 1: with cake I'll go to. But it really is something

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Speaker 1: that we would do well to take the being married

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Speaker 1: part from the beginning more seriously.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've I've officiated a few weddings and there's never

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Speaker 2: been a time when I haven't not wanted to cry.

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Speaker 2: Like I'm trying to hold it together, and the only

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Speaker 2: thing in my had is don't cry do it together.

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Speaker 2: It's so hard because I'm the same. I love love,

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Speaker 2: I'm fully present. It's something that gets me right my soul.

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Speaker 3: Hearing for the yeah, and I love hearing the speeches

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Speaker 3: and the vows. And you know, my friend, I'll share

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Speaker 3: a personal experience. My oldest son, Noah, got married a

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Speaker 3: couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, congratulates wonderful. Why exactly why he has good

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Speaker 1: health insurance? And she would know they have a lot

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Speaker 1: of They had good reasons. He's so so and he's

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Speaker 1: also a lawyer, so he's thought it through and she's

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Speaker 1: a lawyer. But I knew I would be very moved

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Speaker 1: by it. I'm I'll let you in on a secret

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Speaker 1: that I'm I'm very sensitive, you know. I For someone

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Speaker 1: who's been described as the sociopath you want on your

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Speaker 1: side in the courtroom, I'm actually I think my superpower

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Speaker 1: is that I'm extremely sensitive and I'm very prone to tears.

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Speaker 1: And I'm very prone to usually tears over things that

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Speaker 1: move me. And my son and his now wife, after

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Speaker 1: used to saying that because his girlfriend for a long

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Speaker 1: time that was fiance and now it's wife. They wrote

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Speaker 1: their own vows and I fully expected that I would

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Speaker 1: get tearyut during the ceremony, but when she was reading

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Speaker 1: her vows to him, to hear someone talking about this

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Speaker 1: little boy that I helped raise to a man and saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're the strongest man I know, Like you

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Speaker 1: make me feel so safe, Like I could not have

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Speaker 1: tears pouring down my face because it was just such

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Speaker 1: It felt like a finish line of sorts. It felt like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: like that's the man she sees that man like I know.

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Speaker 1: I don't see my own kids, clearly, nobody does. We

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Speaker 1: all think they're the most beautiful, handsome, wonderful. But to

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Speaker 1: have this really intelligent young woman, you know, looking at

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Speaker 1: my son and saying like you're a hero to me

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Speaker 1: was one of the most powerful emotional moments in my life.

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Speaker 1: And I found myself, as I do it every wedding,

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Speaker 1: just just cheering for them, just hoping they'll defy every

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Speaker 1: statistic and every odd and they'll they'll keep the feeling

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Speaker 1: they have at that moment. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And at the same time, it's that paradox, isn't it,

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Speaker 2: Because I think I got married nine years ago and

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Speaker 2: still with my wife and we've been together for twelve years.

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Speaker 2: And now I look back and I think to myself,

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Speaker 2: I didn't know. I didn't have a clue, could you

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Speaker 2: what I was saying? Yeah, like I said, I loved

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Speaker 2: my wife that day and that I believe that, you know,

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Speaker 2: we were meant for each other and everything, and I

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Speaker 2: had no clue. Like the last nine years have been

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Speaker 2: so much more illuminating about a commitment I made. And

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Speaker 2: it's almost like I made a commitment with far less information,

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Speaker 2: far less insight, far less growth. And so what I

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Speaker 2: wanted to dive into with you, And there's so many

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Speaker 2: things that want to impact from everything you've just said.

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Speaker 2: But I want to help our audience understand from your

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Speaker 2: perspective and from your insight and from your experience. Like

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Speaker 2: we've just talked about the most beautiful moment and you

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Speaker 2: hearing you describe your son's vowsand that moment, it's there

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Speaker 2: can't be anyone who's listening right now who isn't just thinking,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, that's beautiful. I love that. And then

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Speaker 2: you're someone who's seen countless couples break apart.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my day job is facilitating the demise of unhappy marriages. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I've done it for twenty five years at the

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Speaker 1: highest level, and you know, I'm very glad it has

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Speaker 1: not taken out of me my appreciation for love and

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Speaker 1: my appreciation for how important romantic love is and how

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Speaker 1: beautiful of a connection to people can have. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have seen good people at their absolute worst, and

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Speaker 1: I have seen intimacy weaponized in the most brutal ways.

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Speaker 1: And so I see the risk that we take. But

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Speaker 1: what it causes me to be very mindful of love is

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Speaker 1: how brave it is to love. Because you should be

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Speaker 1: scared to get married, you should be scared to love anything,

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Speaker 1: Like to love anything is sort of insane because every

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Speaker 1: marriage ends. It ends in death or divorce, but it ends.

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Speaker 1: And to love anything is to open yourself up to

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Speaker 1: the inevitability of losing it. And so there's a good

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Speaker 1: argument to be made that you just should never open

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Speaker 1: yourself up that way because the pain that will come

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Speaker 1: is so great. And yet we love, We love constantly,

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Speaker 1: you know, because the reward of it is so amazing

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Speaker 1: and so beautiful. And that's why, you know, if you're

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Speaker 1: not scared, it's not brave. It's only brave if you're

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Speaker 1: scared and you do it anyway, And so a wedding

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Speaker 1: to me feels brave like the marriage you just described.

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Speaker 1: You know, you and your wife for nine years in

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Speaker 1: so you're not newly weds anymore. The honeymoon's past, you know,

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Speaker 1: especially if you have children. We have children, that it's

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Speaker 1: really okay. So that's that's another chapter. So what you'll

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Speaker 1: what you'll see, though, is even what you're saying now

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Speaker 1: that oh, these nine years were something different of a

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Speaker 1: journey that I anticipated, and I promise that the next

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Speaker 1: nine and the next nine and the next nine. You

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Speaker 1: have no idea, you know, none of us, do you know.

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Speaker 1: My grandmother used to say, if you want to make

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Speaker 1: God laugh, tell them your plans. Yeah, and so I

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Speaker 1: but the idea too again of having a partner in

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Speaker 1: that of someone who like, I'll hold your hand, you'll

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Speaker 1: hold mine, and let's let's do this together, because it's

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Speaker 1: so much better, you know. And I don't think I

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Speaker 1: can learn everything I need to know about myself from myself,

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Speaker 1: like I need help. I need people who see my

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Speaker 1: blind spots and love me and are cheering for the

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Speaker 1: good in me, you know, and forgiving the weakness in me.

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Speaker 1: So there's something to me about again, even in facilitating

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Speaker 1: the demise of unhappy marriages and seeing how wrong this

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Speaker 1: can go. It's like, you know, in the presence of death,

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Speaker 1: we're most aware of the beauty of our life, and

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Speaker 1: in the presence of illness, we're so aware of our

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Speaker 1: good health. I think doing what I do has made

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Speaker 1: me appreciate love in a very deep way.

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Speaker 2: There's such a truth in what I'm hearing from you

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Speaker 2: and even sensing and feeling from the way you're sharing

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Speaker 2: what you're sharing, And it's it's so interesting because if

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Speaker 2: someone's scared before they get married or before they fall

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Speaker 2: in love, we usually tell them that's a bad thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We usually be like, oh no, no, usually be sure

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Speaker 2: you should know, right, Like if you don't know, and

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Speaker 2: it's almost like, well, now, how could you? Like, it's

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Speaker 2: it's putting yourself, you know, it's trying to get someone

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Speaker 2: to hold your heart and hold this fragile, vulnerable, deepest

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Speaker 2: part of yourself and not knowing if they'll be able

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Speaker 2: to hold it properly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeahs in decades. You know, I'm fifty two years

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Speaker 1: into my journey of being a human being, and I'm

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Speaker 1: I'd like to think I'm starting to become myself, starting

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Speaker 1: to understand myself much better. And that's after, you know,

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Speaker 1: a long time of reflection and therapy and all those things.

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Speaker 1: So it's so hard to know yourself to then know

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Speaker 1: another person you know, and then to be in such

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Speaker 1: an intimate tie with this person, and again in a

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Speaker 1: way that requires a tremendous amount if you're going to

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Speaker 1: do it right, a vulnerability, candor bravery, just the ability

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Speaker 1: to say, you know, I mean. It really is almost discipline,

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Speaker 1: like the trading what you want now for what you

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Speaker 1: want most, you know, and what you want most is

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Speaker 1: deep long term connection with this other person. But sometimes

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Speaker 1: what you want now is just like, let's get through

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Speaker 1: the day. Let's not have an argument or a difficult conversation.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes, you know, just like we have to go

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Speaker 1: to the gym, just like you have to lean in

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Speaker 1: to these uncomfortable things. That's a lot of what my

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Speaker 1: writing is about is about the idea of leaning in

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Speaker 1: to moderately uncomfortable conversations for the good of the long

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Speaker 1: term relationship. Because you know, it's so easy to want

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Speaker 1: to have your day to day go smooth in your

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Speaker 1: relationship that you start telling each other what the other

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Speaker 1: person wants to hear, and not, you know, sharing what's

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Speaker 1: really going on in your head and in your heart.

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Speaker 1: But I think, what if what we really want is

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Speaker 1: long term, deep connection with another person, we can't do that.

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Speaker 1: We have to be disciplined. We have to say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be radically candid with this person about

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Speaker 1: what's going on.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of what we've touched on so

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Speaker 2: far is this really root emotion? Like what's really happening

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Speaker 2: beneath the surface? And I wonder not what are the

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Speaker 2: top three reasons people get divorced that they say in

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Speaker 2: the courtroom, or that they may say the first time

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Speaker 2: they meet you or to their therapist. What are the

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Speaker 2: three root top three root reasons that you have discovered

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Speaker 2: that lead to someone getting divorced.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The most common question anyone who finds out what

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Speaker 1: I do for a living ask me other than oh

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Speaker 1: my god, you must have some great stories. And usually

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Speaker 1: they're very pleased because I'll tell them one of the

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Speaker 1: more outrageous ones, like oh, and then he cut the

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Speaker 1: car in half with the chainsaw and said, okay, you

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Speaker 1: pick which half you want. You know, things true story

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Speaker 1: that's crazy true story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I have a lot of fun at

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Speaker 1: a cocktail party. I have a lot of those. But really,

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Speaker 1: what what people are you know asking? I think they

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Speaker 1: want me to say, oh, cheating or financial impropriety, because

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Speaker 1: that gives us a sense of control. Okay, I can

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Speaker 1: monitor my client. My client comes out of me. But

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Speaker 1: I can monitor my spouse or partners whereabouts using my phone,

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Speaker 1: and I can you know, be vigilant about you know,

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Speaker 1: like keeping an eye on what's going on with them

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Speaker 1: and other people. And it gives us a sense of control. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm worried. You know, financial impropriety is a huge piece

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Speaker 1: of a lot of divorces. But you know, okay, I

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Speaker 1: can try to monitor finances and stay actively involved in

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Speaker 1: it so we never have that happen. But really, underneath

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Speaker 1: those things is what you know, Those are the symptoms,

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Speaker 1: not the underlying illness. And I think the underlying illness

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Speaker 1: it's maddening for people to hear, but I think it's disconnection.

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Speaker 1: I think the number one marriage killer is disconnection. I

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Speaker 1: think we fall in love incredibly fast, and we fall

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Speaker 1: out of love, and we fall into those big marriage

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Speaker 1: killers much more slowly, or or really kind of the

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Speaker 1: way that people go bankrupt very slowly and then all

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Speaker 1: at once, you know, and by the time you've gone

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Speaker 1: over that cliff, I actually think it may be too

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Speaker 1: late to do something about it, which is why I

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Speaker 1: very big on the idea of like preventative maintenance and

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Speaker 1: not getting to that place. But I think disconnection from

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Speaker 1: your partner, from yourself, from your true self. You know.

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Speaker 1: I think I've been representing people in court for twenty

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Speaker 1: five years and divorces, and I think the most dangerous

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Speaker 1: lies we tell are the ones we tell ourself about

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Speaker 1: what's making us happy, what's not, what's important to us

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Speaker 1: and what isn't, how we've changed and how we've stayed

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Speaker 1: the same, how our partner has changed, and how we

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Speaker 1: feel about it. We lie to ourselves about those things

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Speaker 1: so that we can sort of navigate a comfortable day

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Speaker 1: to day reality. But long term, I think that is

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Speaker 1: a very very dangerous thing. So I would say disconnection

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Speaker 1: from yourself and from your partner. I would also say

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Speaker 1: that the biggest marriage killer is is we stop seeing

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Speaker 1: our partner and we stop making them feel seen, because

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Speaker 1: I think we become blind to the things we see

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Speaker 1: most often. You know, whoever discovered what it wasn't a fish,

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Speaker 1: you know. Like I have a couch that I've had

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Speaker 1: for I think probably twenty years. I couldn't tell you

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Speaker 1: what color it is because I sit on it every

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Speaker 1: day at some point, but I've just become blind to

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Speaker 1: it because it's just there. It's the couch. It's always there.

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Speaker 1: You know. If I got a new one, then I

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Speaker 1: would probably be very mindful of it. But I think

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Speaker 1: it's the same thing. In a long term relationship. There's

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Speaker 1: a temptation to say, oh, I found it. I found

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Speaker 1: this person. We did the thing. We're in the rings,

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Speaker 1: we connected to each other. We're good. Like I don't

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Speaker 1: have to worry about that anymore. I can worry about

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Speaker 1: all the thousand other natural shocks. The flesh is there too,

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Speaker 1: you know, and in fact, like this, this thing, this

355
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Speaker 1: connection is so important that you know, when you think

356
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Speaker 1: about when you're dating someone, you feel interested and you

357
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Speaker 1: feel interesting, and those are both equally intoxicated, you know,

358
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Speaker 1: like it's it's lovely to sort of dive into someone

359
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Speaker 1: like this is our first conversation. It's exciting for us,

360
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Speaker 1: like we're kind of a mystery to each other, and

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Speaker 1: you know, we know a little about each other enough

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Speaker 1: that we're interested, but we want to know more, you know.

363
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Speaker 1: And when you feel interesting, like it's lovely. It's lovely

364
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Speaker 1: to have someone say like, oh, and then what did

365
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Speaker 1: you do and where did you grow up? And you know,

366
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Speaker 1: like it makes you feel sort of oh yeah, I

367
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Speaker 1: guess I joke because every summer we have lost student

368
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Speaker 1: interns who come to the firm for a couple months

369
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Speaker 1: and share their talents with us, and it I always,

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Speaker 1: I always feel so proud to be a lawyer when

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Speaker 1: they're around, because it's something they aspire to so much,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it's my day job for so long

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Speaker 1: that I sometimes forget like oh oh yeah, Like there

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Speaker 1: was a time where the only thing in the world

375
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Speaker 1: I wanted. It was like everything I did was I

376
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Speaker 1: want to be able to someday walk into a courtroom

377
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Speaker 1: and say, James J. Sexon for the plaintiff, you know,

378
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Speaker 1: and and then I do it. I've done it so

379
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Speaker 1: many thousands of times that it's really easy to forget

380
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Speaker 1: that what a privilege, that is, what a goal it was,

381
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Speaker 1: and I achieved it. And when you're around people that

382
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Speaker 1: are chasing that same dream. You say, oh yeah, like

383
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Speaker 1: I forgot. And I think it's the same phenomenon in marriage,

384
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Speaker 1: like there was a time where all of us went,

385
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Speaker 1: I just I just want to find someone, like I

386
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Speaker 1: want to find my someone. I want to find someone

387
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Speaker 1: who loves me and sees me and I'll love them

388
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Speaker 1: and they'll receive my love. And then you have it

389
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Speaker 1: and you just kind of okay, I got that now,

390
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Speaker 1: and I'll move on to other things. And so I

391
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Speaker 1: think when when you feel, you know, there's I always

392
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Speaker 1: say about New York City that there's a kind of

393
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Speaker 1: loneliness in New York City that I don't see in

394
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Speaker 1: a lot of other cities, because you're so surrounded by people,

395
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Speaker 1: and yet you feel very alone sometimes because everyone's sort of,

396
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Speaker 1: you know, in their lane, and you know, it's a

397
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 1: city where you know, someone can just fall down in

398
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,439
Speaker 1: front of you and people just keep moving, you know,

399
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: and it's so odd to be surround Like when you're

400
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: home by yourself, if you feel lonely, it seems situationally appropriate.

401
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: But if you're sitting in a room with hundreds of

402
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 1: people and feel incredibly lonely, that's a very different kind

403
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: of loneliness. I think when you are with the person

404
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: who's supposed to be your deepest connection and you feel

405
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 1: lonely and alone, that's a very unique brand of misery.

406
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Speaker 1: So I think a lot of that comes from not

407
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Speaker 1: feeling seen anymore, and I think that's something that kills

408
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Speaker 1: marriages in a real way.

409
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I like those two and I appreciate those

410
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: answers so much more than the surface answers of And

411
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Speaker 2: we will talk about cheating, and we will talk about

412
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Speaker 2: money at some point, but I much prefer the disconnection

413
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Speaker 2: and the lack of being seen as points of contention,

414
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 2: because I think you're spawn because when you didn't wash

415
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 2: the dishes, someone felt like you didn't see them. When

416
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,880
Speaker 2: you forgot to pick up something on the way back

417
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 2: from home, they felt you were disconnected. When you sat

418
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 2: on the couch both watching the same show but never

419
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 2: looking at each other, you felt unseen, like that that's

420
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 2: what you felt, That's what was going on.

421
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: And that phenomena, that reality, I think actually can be

422
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: flipped in the other direction to our benefit. Because you know,

423
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: you've been married, and I don't want to put you

424
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: on the spot, but you've been married nine years I'm

425
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: willing to bet that if your wife was here and

426
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: I said to her, when do you feel most loved

427
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: by Jay? Like, tell me some moments, tell me some

428
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: things he does that makes you feel loved. I bet

429
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,239
Speaker 1: there's some answers you would know, like he listens to

430
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: me when he cares for our family member, whatever. But

431
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: I bet there'd be some that you go really that

432
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 1: like that little thing like that, that, to me is

433
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 1: such a beautiful expression of like what a mystery it is,

434
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: you know. But but there is something about these little gestures,

435
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: like you give the example of like the dishes in

436
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: the sink, and it is that's like a death by

437
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: a thousand paper cuts. It's this little thing that's like, yeah,

438
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,239
Speaker 1: I don't I don't care enough about you to do this,

439
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 1: and I don't value your time enough, Like it can

440
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: feel that way. But also the act of like doing

441
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: the dishes without being asked to do that is such

442
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: as the opposite. It's such a sense of like, oh, no,

443
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: I did this because I love you, like I did

444
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: this because I don't want you to have to do it,

445
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: like and there are so many little things when you're

446
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: in love and when you feel loved that I bet

447
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 1: your spouse like there.

448
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: Right now, I told me before, so you know, and

449
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure everyone goes through this. So my wife

450
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 2: gets into bed before me, maybe by a couple of minutes.

451
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: She's brushed her teeth, she's done everything, she's going to bed.

452
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 2: I'm getting I'm just about to get in a bed,

453
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: and she's like, can you give me some water? And

454
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: it's like that, so if I if I snap and

455
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 2: I go no, get it yourself, like I'm getting into

456
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: bed too.

457
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 1: Right right? Or or if you get the water before

458
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: she even asked, yes, yeah, and you say before you ask,

459
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: I knew you'd want a little bit. Yeah, Like that's

460
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: such a feeling of yeah, oh, like you didn't you know.

461
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 1: Or even if you just get the water and put

462
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: it on the nightstand and don't look for credit, Yeah, yeah,

463
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: and you just do it. And you know. I had

464
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: a client I talk about it in the book who

465
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: I was talking to her after we'd been many miles together.

466
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: It was a very ugly divorce, and we were sitting

467
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 1: outside of the courtroom and I said to her, because

468
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: we've been some miles, so you start having more casual conversations.

469
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: And I said you know, was there a moment that

470
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: you knew the marriage was over? And she said, yeah,

471
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: I remember it, and I said what was it? And

472
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: she said, there was this granola that I really like

473
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 1: and I used to have it for breakfast. I'd put

474
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: it on my yogurt and I would have that every

475
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: day and they only sold it at this one store,

476
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: and my husband used to always get it for me.

477
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: And whenever like the bag was running out, magically like

478
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 1: a new bag would be there. She's like, and it

479
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: always made me feel loved. It always made me feel like, oh, like,

480
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: look like he and he wouldn't even say like, oh,

481
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: I got your granola, like who we're prone to do

482
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: as men, you know, we're like, I opened that jar.

483
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: We love that. But he didn't even look for credit.

484
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: He just would do it. And it was and she said,

485
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: like it just always made me feel so like he

486
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: sees me, he knows what I need. He tries to

487
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: get ahead of it, said in one day, the granola

488
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: ran out and I thought, oh, that's strange, and she's like,

489
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: I didn't get my own because I thought, oh no,

490
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 1: maybe he's just didn't notice, you know. And a couple

491
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,719
Speaker 1: more days went by, and granola never got replaced, and

492
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: she said, and I thought, okay, this is over, Like

493
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: it's starting to move in the wrong direction. And I

494
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 1: just remember thinking, like, what a what a powerful moment,

495
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: but what a very relatable one. You know. The funny

496
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: ps to that story is I said to her, was

497
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: there anything like that that you did for him?

498
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: Yeah?

499
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: And without hesitation, she said, yeah, blowjobs. And I'd spit

500
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: out my coffee, like I literally spit coffee across the

501
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: courthouse hall way. And I said, really, she said yeah.

502
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: She said, you know, when we were like dating and

503
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: first married, like it was just something I did a lot,

504
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: like it was you know, it didn't take terribly long

505
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: and always put him in a great mood for the day,

506
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: and you know, he would like text me later and

507
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: be like, oh my god, this morning was so fun.

508
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: And she goes, and then for some reason, like you know,

509
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: once the kids came and stuff, we didn't have as

510
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: much time alone together. And she said, I didn't really

511
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: much occasion, and so I would say like, oh, well,

512
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: we'll wait till tonight and then we can both you know,

513
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: we'll have sex and we'll both enjoy it. She's like,

514
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: but now I think about it, and I think, like,

515
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: oh yeah, like that was probably like the equivalent of granola.

516
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying these are the same. I think

517
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: they're quite different. But but whatever it is, like whatever

518
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: that little thing is, not that that's little, but whatever

519
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: it is that your partner does for you, whatever kindness

520
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: they show you, selfless kindness that they show you, whatever

521
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: gesture of warmth and love and prioritizing your joy and pleasure,

522
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: that's so important. And it's so easy to lose it.

523
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: It's so easy to just not even know that you

524
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: lost it.

525
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's so important that there's recognition,

526
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: gratitude and reciprocity for it, because I think often when

527
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 2: someone's doing something for a long time, it's like the couch. Yeah,

528
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: you stop thanking them, you stop noticing it, you stop

529
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: honoring it. And that that part is equally is important

530
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 2: because that person at one point will feel underappreciated. And

531
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: these are such they're simple.

532
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: These are such simple thing, Like it's so easy.

533
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: But it is that it is so easy. It's not

534
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: the birthday or the wedding animals.

535
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: And that's what we put so much on, is these

536
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: giant gestures and but the truth is, like, if you

537
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: texted your wife right now and just said I married

538
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: the prettiest girl in the world, Like, what does that take?

539
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: What does it take? My wife?

540
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: Would you send me a picture of it making a

541
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: funny face?

542
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got a good one. Yeah. Like,

543
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: but but I bet it wouldn't be something that's uncommon

544
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: for you to say. I think if I say, yeah,

545
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: I think that that, what does it cost? What does

546
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: it cost to just take a moment and say, you know,

547
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: I'm so glad, I'm so glad I have you. I'm

548
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: so glad you chose me. Like, what does it take?

549
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: It's such a low percentage move. And if that's the secret,

550
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: Like if that's the thing that keeps that connection wired,

551
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: Like what if it's not these giant things. What if

552
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: it's not we have to go on vacations at this

553
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: between we have to have a date night and it

554
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: has to be very formal. What if it's just these

555
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: little gestures that at the beginning of a relationship you

556
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: feel them in your toes. I mean, you know, you

557
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: just the feeling of intoxication when someone sees you and

558
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: admires you, Like it's such a beautiful feeling. Why would

559
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: you not just try to maintain that and what do

560
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 1: you have to lose? Like if you did that, the

561
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: worst thing that could happen is they don't really notice totally.

562
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: And that's okay. You're not much poorer for that, you know,

563
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: it's a low investment.

564
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: So much of this is based on at least so

565
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 2: much of what we grew up on. Like for me,

566
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 2: for example, my mom, incredible woman bredren of the family,

567
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: cooked a fresh breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day, dropped

568
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: us to school, helped us with our homework. Everything, everything

569
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: that's good about me is to do with my mom.

570
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 2: And but when your mom does it, you assume that's

571
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: just what life is. And so when I married my wife,

572
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: and my wife also loves cooking and it's part of

573
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: her love language. But to me, getting a hot meal

574
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: was normality. And so even though my wife showed it

575
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: as a way of showing love, because I had it

576
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: for my mom as like a base level expectator. So

577
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: you're you just not know, yeah, you just don't see it.

578
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: And it took me a moment and I would actually

579
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 2: watch my wife cook, and then not only did my

580
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: appreciation for my wife, change my appreciation for my mother change,

581
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: realizing what it took to do that for all those years.

582
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: But it's almost like.

583
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: And what a gift that is?

584
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 2: What a gift?

585
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: Like, what a gift that loving your loving your wife

586
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: helped you love your mother in a different way? Like

587
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: that That's what I mean when I say, like this

588
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: transformative power of love is that you know, I remember

589
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: when my sons were first born, my admiration for my

590
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: then wife was so like because she wasn't just this

591
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: woman I had dated in college or this woman I

592
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: had met. She was a But you're like a mom,

593
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: you know, like and you love this little organism the

594
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: same amount that I do. And like, so you do,

595
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: like have so many occasions to deepen your connection to

596
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: this other person, which deepens your connection to these other

597
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: people you know in your life. And but yeah, I

598
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: think that that we we certainly And you know, I

599
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: have to say when you were talking about, you know,

600
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: growing up in a home where mom, you know, made

601
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: these lovely meals and then to be married to a

602
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: woman who does the same, and so to you, this

603
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: is sort of you know, normal.

604
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 4: You can take you for granted, right, You can easily

605
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 4: take it for granted, but that's also very often how

606
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 4: people end up in very negative relationships.

607
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: So if you grew up in a home where your

608
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: mother or your father or both had substance use disorder,

609
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: you think, oh, this is how a man is. Men drink,

610
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, so you're much more prone to marrying someone

611
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: who also has substance use disorder and looking at it

612
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: and saying, oh, well, no, that's just what men do.

613
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: I have.

614
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: I have represented victims of domestic violence and animate partner

615
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: abuse for twenty five years, and I've represented perpetrators of

616
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: domestic violence. And I'm not excusing anyone's abuse of anyone else,

617
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: but ninety nine percent of the time, in my experience,

618
00:34:58,320 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: they grew up in a house where there was a

619
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: They grew up in a house where violence and intimate

620
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: partner abuse was how you treat someone or how you

621
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 1: are treated by someone, and they they just don't see

622
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: how toxic of an environment. This is. So sometimes what

623
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: you just described as a way to deepen connection and

624
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: love to yourself, you know, to your partner, to and

625
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: to your you know, your your your mom, it's also

626
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: that same phenomenon, that same cognitive habit that can create

627
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: in us, like we may be repeating the patterns that

628
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: we watched the people around us, like mothers and fathers

629
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: and grandparents, the way they communicated with their spouse. There's

630
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: no class in love, like there's no you know, I

631
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: can tell you with certainty. I've used algebra very few

632
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: times in my life, you know, I have had almost

633
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: no use for so much of like dividing fractions that

634
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: was taught to me. But but there was never a

635
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: class about how to love, how to be loved, how

636
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: to be in a deeply connected relationship with another human being.

637
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: So you really just learn on the job, you know,

638
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: and you learn by watching the people around you. And

639
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: if you have people around you that do it well,

640
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: it's an incredible blessing. You know. This is a gift

641
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: we can give to the world, is to demonstrate how

642
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 1: to love and be loved. Like I often talk about,

643
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 1: you know, in this sort of masculinity crisis that there's

644
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: been a lot of discussion about how you know, there

645
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: are there are not as many role models for men,

646
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 1: young men who want to look at what what should

647
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: a strong capable man look like? What does you know?

648
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: We talk a lot about toxic masculinity. But what does

649
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: non toxic masculinity look like? I'm interested in that, like,

650
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: what what does it? What is the positive masculine? And

651
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: I found myself thinking about most of my examples of

652
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: it came from literally ritre or film, you know, like

653
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: characters who were strong, protective men, self sacrificing, putting themselves,

654
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: you know, below in terms of importance the people who

655
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: they were there to protect or love. And so I

656
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: think we have we need each other so much as

657
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: a core unit, a family, a society, and then just

658
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: as a world, like we need to be able to

659
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: look to examples of how to love and how to

660
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: receive love, and we don't. There is a I think

661
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: a tremendous absence, a drought of that. You know, I

662
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: know a lot of unhappily married people, and not just

663
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: as a function of my professional life. I know too

664
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: of my friends who are married. I can really only

665
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: think of a handful who I look at them and go, oh, yeah,

666
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: that's good. Yeah that's really good, and they're really glad

667
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: they're in it. But man, when you're around it, like

668
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: it's it's like the warmth of the sun, Like it's

669
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: such a beautiful thing to see that in practice, and

670
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: we need to find ways, I think for young people

671
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: or even newly connected people like people who are thinking

672
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: about marriage, to be in the orbit of that, yeah,

673
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: you know, and to learn from it because we just can't.

674
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: We don't teach it. We can't. I don't know that

675
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: we could necessarily teach it in the textbook. You know,

676
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: you can read all the books you want about swimming,

677
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: but you learn in the pool. Yeah, you know. And

678
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: I think we're you know, we break in relationship and

679
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: we heal in relationship. I think it's the only way.

680
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean talking about the masculinity piece, I was

681
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 2: reading that the two times men are most likely to

682
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 2: cheat are when their partner's pregnant and when the first

683
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 2: child is born or when a child is young.

684
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: Makes sense to me, that's consistent with my observation.

685
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

686
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: I have something of a PhD and infidelity, having been

687
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: a divorce lary so long, and I've seen it from

688
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: both sides.

689
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 2: And I'd love to talk about why, but I think

690
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 2: the fab theory. Yeah. The fascinating part to me is

691
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: that I spoke to a lot of men as well,

692
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: friends who haven't cheated, but they talked about how when

693
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 2: they had their first child just how hard it was

694
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: to be second priority to their partner. And when we

695
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: talk about we can't teach a class, to me, it

696
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: sounds predictable and something you can prepare for, because no,

697
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 2: wonder you're going to be second priority because there's this

698
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: helpless little baby that demands attention.

699
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: You actually want that baby to be. Then you start

700
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: feeling guilty about why do I want this correct and

701
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 1: why do I feel that way? But see, you know again,

702
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: I think it's a perfectly understandable feeling. Yeah, it's an

703
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 1: understandable but you and it can be articulated to your

704
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: partner in a way that doesn't created defensive reaction. I think,

705
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: because you want your partner to love that child that much,

706
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: and you love that child that much. But yet there

707
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 1: is something about like losing a little of your love

708
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: and attention that is hard for me. And what a

709
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: lovely thing for someone to say, Like if it's said

710
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: the right way, if it's said like, well, I'm feeling neglected,

711
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: of course the response would be, well, what do you

712
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 1: want me to do? Like I got two hands, there's

713
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: only so many hours a day I'm sleep deprived. My

714
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: body's a train wreck right now, like what do you?

715
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: And now I got to worry about you?

716
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: And that's the script that's right, and an.

717
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 1: Understandable script, like I get that frustration, how a woman

718
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: would feel in that situation. And yet perhaps if it

719
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: was parse differently, you know, the feeling of like I

720
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: admire so much what you're doing, like I'm falling in

721
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: love with you all over again, watching you spin these

722
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: plates that are so important to both of us and

723
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 1: giving our child this gift that only you can give.

724
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: And yet I have to say and maybe I'm selfish,

725
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm foolish, and maybe I'm a child myself,

726
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: Like I just I miss something about the warmth of you,

727
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: and I hope we can find a way, you know,

728
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: to take time to like see each other and connect

729
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: to each other. It's so interesting how if you just

730
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 1: and maybe it's because I my job is to sort

731
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: of parse argument. You know that maybe it may be

732
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 1: uniquely qualified for this, But I find myself thinking that

733
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,439
Speaker 1: that almost any of these sentiments, there is a way

734
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: to parse it that I think it can actually deepen

735
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: connection And it doesn't bring a defensive response because if

736
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: you say you know, well we haven't had sex late,

737
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: Like we're having so much less sex of what used to,

738
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: Like what's going on? Immediately, your partner's response is going

739
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: to be, well, what, you know, you've been working all

740
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 1: the time and you know when you come home you're tired,

741
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: and I don't know that you want it you want

742
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: me to initiate, Like what am I supposed to? And

743
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: now we're just having this thing, whereas if you just said,

744
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: you know, oh, like I missed like feeling connected to you,

745
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: you know, like I love like the smell of you,

746
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: and I love the feeling of your warmth, like and

747
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: I got it. We have to like I have to

748
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: really make time if I haven't made time for that,

749
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: Like I really have to. I really want to what

750
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: partner wouldn't hear that and go, oh, well, yeah, that's

751
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: important to me too, and let's you know, like, yeah,

752
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: let's make a point of doing that. Like I really

753
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: don't think this has to be But again, perhaps it's

754
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: a function of the times we're living in. We're so

755
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: hyperpartisan all the time, and we're so on the defensive

756
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: all the time from everything and everyone, you know that

757
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: perhaps we're just not approaching those interactions the right way,

758
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 1: and I'd like to think that those same phenomenon can

759
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: be spun in a direction that can reverse that.

760
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like we only know how to share

761
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 2: eye emotions through a negative lens.

762
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: Right, are you?

763
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 2: We're not doing this enough?

764
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: Right?

765
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: We used to do this? Where's this gone?

766
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: Right?

767
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: And all that language is looking at the gap, the scarcity,

768
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: the missed opportunity, whereas what you just said was, hey,

769
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 2: I'd love to connect again, or hey i'd love to

770
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 2: you know, make some time for this again.

771
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and remember when we did it, Uh, it wasn't

772
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: that so God? I was thinking about it the other day,

773
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: you know that we went for that walk and how

774
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: nice it was.

775
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a positive thing to move towards.

776
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 1: Right, and now we're there again.

777
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 2: You know.

778
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: It's I've always one of my favorite phenomenon, is it.

779
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,919
Speaker 1: You know we've all been to like a dinner where

780
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 1: there's a couple of couples and one of them you're

781
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: just like, man, there was some kind of fight on

782
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: the way here. Yeah, like they just got that there's

783
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: this energy between them of like you know, terse, you know,

784
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: and you're like, I hope they're not like this all

785
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 1: the time, but it might have just been on the

786
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: ride over. And if I found as an experiment is

787
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: if you say to that couple, so, how did the

788
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 1: two you meet? Yeah, there's a softening that happens very

789
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: quickly because all of a sudden they're in telling the story.

790
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: They're transported back to Oh, I was here and she

791
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: was in the dorm and we met and we were

792
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 1: on there and they're remembering, you know, they're remembering viscerally,

793
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 1: you know, that connection. And I think if we use

794
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: that in our current relationships to instead of saying hey,

795
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: we're not like you said, focusing on the gap, instead

796
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: bringing us back to you remember when we did this

797
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: was God, that was so fun. I remember that so much.

798
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: Oh I stumbled on this picture on my phone. You know,

799
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: Apple just suggested this one for me. Look remember that,

800
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 1: you know, and you go, yeah, we should. You know,

801
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: we have to make time to do that again. Who

802
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't Who wouldn't go, oh, yeah, that was really nice,

803
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,240
Speaker 1: you know. And then even if there is some resistance,

804
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: even if the person says, well, we can't really afford

805
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: to go there again right now, or oh you know,

806
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: it's everything going on at work right now such a

807
00:44:54,800 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: bad time, there's at least this shared intention, shared experience

808
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: of going back to that. I mean, why are we

809
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: as a species take a million pictures on our phones

810
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: because we want to like hold on to it. You know,

811
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: I went to a concert. I tend to not go

812
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: out a lot at night because I get up so early,

813
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: but I went to a concert recently and it was

814
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: my first time being at a concert in many years.

815
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: And everyone had their phones, you know, they're recording you know,

816
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: whatever song you know, And I found myself thinking, like,

817
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: do you think that that little box is going to

818
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: capture this this giant room we're all in and the

819
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 1: vibration of this music. It was a nine Inch Nails concert,

820
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: so it was like really heavy, and I just thought like, oh,

821
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 1: you're missing the whole thing. You're missing the whole thing

822
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: because you're trying to hold on to something that you

823
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: won't be able to hold on to. This will be

824
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: a poor, poor copy of something. So maybe just you

825
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: know again that human desire to capture it so you

826
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: can have some small taste of it again in the future.

827
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: Maybe there's a way that that can be used to

828
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 1: like reconnect us to who we were what we felt

829
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 1: and maybe bring it back to the present. Yeah.

830
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, It's such a part of that passing of an

831
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 2: argument as you talk about it, and part of that

832
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 2: ability to initiate. I feel like at the root of it,

833
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 2: there's a struggle that we have with our ego where

834
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: it feels like we don't want to be the one

835
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: to look like the beggar, or look like the needy one,

836
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: it look like the weak one. And so there's this ego,

837
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 2: the vulnerability.

838
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: It's scary, I tell you, I struggle with that in

839
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: every relationship. My longtime assistant, Teresa has been with me

840
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: a long time. She's a wonderful, wonderful assistant, and she's

841
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: really the brains of my office. You know. She keeps

842
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: the machine running. And I actually have times where it's

843
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: hard for me to say to her because I'm moving

844
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: so fast between things like could you heat up my

845
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: lunch for me? Now? She has offered this a million times,

846
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: Like she's happy to be of assistance to me in

847
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: any way. Like she's a wonderful resource in that regard,

848
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: and she's by nature that kind of person, like I

849
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: see it in a relationship with her husband and her kids.

850
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: Like she just nothing makes her happier than feeding her

851
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 1: family or feeding the people around her, And everyone who

852
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: calls my office is like, oh my god, Teresa is

853
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: the best, Like they all love her because there's a warmth.

854
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: And I still have a hard time, even with such permission,

855
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: I still have a hard time being vulnerable enough to

856
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: say I need help, because that's what I'm saying, Like

857
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 1: it's a minor thing I'm asking for help for, but

858
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: I'm saying I need help. And that's hard for me

859
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: to just hard for anyone to do, to say I

860
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,080
Speaker 1: need help, because there's a vulnerability, there's this fear. But

861
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 1: what if the person goes, well, I don't have time

862
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: to do that right now, and then that pain, Like

863
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: that's such a child wound, you know, that feeling of

864
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 1: like not wanting something and not getting it and asking

865
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 1: for it, being brave enough to ask for it and

866
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: not getting it. That I certainly understand that pain.

867
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it's one of those ones that you

868
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: almost have to be willing to go to with the

869
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 2: right partner. I feel like with the right partner, with

870
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 2: the right person, you almost are willing to go there

871
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 2: more often because you know they're not judging it, like

872
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 2: with someone like Theresa in the assisting capacity.

873
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:42,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think you fix that by this step

874
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: of trying, because every time you are vulnerable in that

875
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: way and the person shows up, that becomes a less

876
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: terrifying and a deeper intimacy, I think, like a deeper connection.

877
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,720
Speaker 1: And so to give that example, and I have allowed

878
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 1: myself to say, like, I'm sorry, I'm going a million

879
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: miles an hour, is there any way you could just

880
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: like heat up my lunch? And she goes, of course,

881
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: oh my god, of course. And then she takes the

882
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: extra step of like she puts it on like a

883
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: nice little tray, and she brings like a little drink

884
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: along with it, and like she puts a little you know,

885
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: a little chips next to it or something. And then

886
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: I feel so loved, like legitimately loved. I feel legitimately seen.

887
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: I feel like not only did you give me what

888
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: I asked you for, but you gave me like more.

889
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: And that is just one example of like a relationship

890
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: that you know. And of course then I feel that

891
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: way now about her, like if she ever says like,

892
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 1: oh I need some time off for this, I'm always

893
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: of course, of course, because she always shows up for me.

894
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: I always try to show up for her. I want

895
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: to reciprocate that. So I think again, it's it's a muscle, yeah,

896
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 1: that we have to exercise for it to get stronger

897
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,240
Speaker 1: and stronger and stronger. But that's where in a long

898
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: term relationship, where you've both been brave enough to do

899
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: that and to show up for each other, that's where

900
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 1: I think you have these people that have this like

901
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 1: they're just thicke as thieves, you know, they have this

902
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: bond that never ends up in my office.

903
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 2: If you are designing a contract for marriage for more

904
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 2: in love, what would you put in it?

905
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: Oh? Wow, I'm a lawyer, so we tend to be

906
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: for both in our contracts. I would put specific behaviors

907
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: I would put I would put a mandatory weekly check in,

908
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: and I would even create a structure for it. I

909
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: would say that every week, I want to share with you,

910
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,919
Speaker 1: and I want you to share with me something I

911
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 1: did this week that made you feel loved. And then

912
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: I want you to share with me something that made

913
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: you feel less loved or less seen, or where I

914
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: got it wrong, Like I want you to tell me

915
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 1: where I got it wrong. Bravely and then maybe praise sandwich,

916
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 1: tell me something I can do for you this week

917
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: that would make you feel loved, that you think might

918
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: make you feel loved, or that might be because I

919
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: want to be good at this job, Like I want

920
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: to be good at this job, and it's a job,

921
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 1: like loving another person is. It's a it's a career,

922
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: you know, it's a vocation. And I think you have

923
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 1: to be brave enough to talk about those things. And

924
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 1: so I would put that in a contract. I think

925
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: that's not a hard thing to do. That that doesn't

926
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: cost anything, and I think that it wouldn't take a

927
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: lot of time necessarily, and it would stave off a

928
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of things. I would also commit to, or

929
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: pledge to, to hear the things that we say to

930
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: each other as coming from a place of love and connection.

931
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: You know, even when we say something the other person

932
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: might not want to hear that, it's coming from a

933
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: desire to protect the bond. So I would say that

934
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: is a very worthwhile and worthy pursuit to say, look,

935
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: we've we've decided we want this particular permutation of relationship.

936
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 1: You know, love is loaned, it's not permanently gifted, and

937
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 1: so if we want to protect and preserve it, I

938
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: think saying to each other that we have to have

939
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: this unflinching ability to kind of hit send now, like

940
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: say to the person like, hey, you know, this thing's

941
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: little and I never wanted to get big. But then

942
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: you also have to be willing to hear that as

943
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: coming from a place not of you're doing it wrong,

944
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: but from a place of I want this to stay wonderful.

945
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: This is important to me, you know, And I think

946
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: if those provisions could be complied with, I think that

947
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: would be very helpful to people. I also think again,

948
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: you know, in romantic relationships, and you know, this is

949
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: I think part of the reason why cheating becomes such

950
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:25,399
Speaker 1: an issue. You know, sex is the glue, Like it's

951
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: the glue. Like sex is incredibly important to people like that.

952
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the difference between having a roommate and

953
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: having a spouse, you know, Like there's a there's a

954
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: romantic element to it, there's a sexual element to it,

955
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: there's a physical not even purely sexual, there's a physical

956
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: element to it. I can't tell you how many men

957
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: tell me, yeah, we stopped having sex, or we started

958
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: having it very infrequently, some women, but mostly men. And

959
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many women have said to

960
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 1: me in the context of divorce that, yeah, like, the

961
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: only time he ever touched me was sex, Like it

962
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,399
Speaker 1: was just prelude sex. The only time you ever kissed

963
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 1: me was a pre laude. I mean, come on, when

964
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: you first start dating, you could make out for hours,

965
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: Like literally, there's just nothing more lovely than just the

966
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 1: kissing this person. When's the last time people really made

967
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: out with their spouse, you know, or just like held

968
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: their hand or just touch the nearness of them. Good relationships,

969
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot of that. There's a lot of this

970
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 1: physical connection. And so again, I don't think you have

971
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:38,359
Speaker 1: to write into the contract any particular frequency or specifics

972
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 1: of what sex would need to look like. But I

973
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: think you have to make somewhere in that contract, especially

974
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 1: if I'm going to take a pledge that you're going

975
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: to be my partner in this, in this physical aspect

976
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: of things, if we're going to be monogamous. You know,

977
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 1: I used to say in the context of dating that

978
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 1: if you're going to rob me of solitude, you owe

979
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: me companionship, because I enjoy solitude. So you have to

980
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 1: be better than that, and companionship is better than that.

981
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: So if you're going to rob my solitude, you owe

982
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: me companionship. If you want us to pledge to each

983
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: other that we will be each other's sexual outlet, we

984
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: will be each other's sexual connection, we will be each

985
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 1: other's intimate touch connection. Again, by intimate touch, I don't

986
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 1: even necessarily mean sex. You know, there's an intimacy in

987
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: holding someone's hand. There's an intimacy and having your hand

988
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 1: on their leg, you know anything you wouldn't do it

989
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 1: to a stranger on the subway. Put it in that category.

990
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,760
Speaker 1: And I think that if we're going to have rules

991
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 1: in the relationship, which I think there are good reasons for,

992
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,399
Speaker 1: then we owe it to each other to see where

993
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:55,760
Speaker 1: that is now. Again controlling for the possibility that that's okay.

994
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 1: If that shut you know, shifts, I think it's okay.

995
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 1: Like I don't think if you sustained the electricity of

996
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,919
Speaker 1: the initial physical bond people have, like when you're first

997
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: dating someone in your hand brushes theres and you just

998
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: like feel it in your toe, like you if you

999
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: did that for nine years, man, you would never get

1000
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 1: anything done. Like you just wouldn't like society would crumble

1001
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 1: because we'd all just be like, oh my god, she

1002
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: walked past me and I smelled her hair, you know,

1003
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,360
Speaker 1: like you just would have that intoxication all the time.

1004
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, Like,

1005
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 1: let's remember that there is some importance to this. It's

1006
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: what makes that relationship a unique and special relationship. And

1007
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 1: I think it's very easy for people to find surrogate activities,

1008
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 1: whether it's pornography, whether it's you know, infidelity, whether that's

1009
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: with a person who's a sex worker, whether that's in

1010
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 1: the context of an affair, even whether that's in the

1011
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: context of an emotional affair versus a physical affair. I

1012
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,359
Speaker 1: think it's all about starting to say, Okay, I'm not

1013
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: getting what I need in this relationship anymore, and it's

1014
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 1: going to be hard to have that conversation, so I'll

1015
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:08,839
Speaker 1: just have this little thing instead. You know, I can't

1016
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: have a meal right now, so I'll just have like

1017
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: a little snack bar. But if that becomes the staple

1018
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 1: of your diet, you know, I see this a lot

1019
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: with men in pornography, and I hear from a lot

1020
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 1: of my female clients that say, like, yeah, he started

1021
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: like being much more into porn, and and I think

1022
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 1: that that is a surrogate activity for a very real

1023
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 1: need in all of us that for whatever reason, is

1024
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: no longer being met, because again, we're no longer the

1025
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 1: perfect thing we were, Like perfect is the enemy of good,

1026
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: you know. And so I think we have to be

1027
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: conscious and communicative about when the physical aspects of our

1028
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: relationship are changing. And again in a non defense invoking manner,

1029
00:57:57,840 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 1: So you don't say, why don't you ever hold my

1030
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: hand anymore? Like the last thing I want to do

1031
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 1: is hold your hands, yeah, Whereas if you just grab

1032
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: my hand and just go like I just want to

1033
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: hold your hand for a minute, Like who wouldn't go,

1034
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: oh okay, like yeah, that's nice, you know.

1035
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's why you say that teating's actually a symptom,

1036
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 2: not a route. You don't believe that it's the reason

1037
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 2: marriages end, and you don't believe it's the root of

1038
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 2: the issue. It's actually because there's a disconnection.

1039
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: I have a very high degree of competence in that

1040
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: I think I spent a lot of time with the

1041
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: cheated and the cheated on, you know, or the cheater

1042
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: and the cheated on. I spend a lot of time

1043
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 1: with every permutation of infidelity, and I've talked to people

1044
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: in very candid ways about their affairs, men and women,

1045
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: and there's a an emptiness and a sadness in people

1046
00:58:55,840 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 1: that have gone that route. Some times, it's surprising because

1047
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: they will say, yeah, this had nothing to do with

1048
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: my wife, Like this had to do with me, like

1049
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 1: and how I felt like it wasn't her. She was

1050
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 1: loved I've always loved her, I still love her. I

1051
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: just needed this, you know. And they didn't really see

1052
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 1: like in that moment, they weren't thinking about their commitment.

1053
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: They thought, well, this has nothing to do with that.

1054
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: This is just like a human need, like I'm hungry,

1055
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna eat. And again, these are powerful forces

1056
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 1: in us, you know, the desire for sex, the desire

1057
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: for food, the desire for like these are basic core

1058
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 1: human things, you know. So I think infidelity is something

1059
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 1: that is a function of disconnection and a function of

1060
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: how fraught the conversation is with your partner about desire

1061
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: and how it changed. I mean, how much do we

1062
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 1: really understand our own desires? You know, it's it's there's

1063
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 1: something mysterious about it, you know, like why do you

1064
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 1: like dark hair or blonde hair? Why do you like,

1065
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 1: like why do any of us have these weird preferences?

1066
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: You know, Like, but they're there, you know, and maybe

1067
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 1: they're rooted in you know, Freud is right, they're rooted

1068
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 1: in some you know, very basic childhood things. Or you know,

1069
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 1: maybe they're purely chemical. You know, it depends on who

1070
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 1: you ask. But but they're a mystery to us. I

1071
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: mean I certainly know it's a mystery to me. Like

1072
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 1: I don't like, why are breasts so appealing? Like they

1073
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: don't really do anything unless you're an infant, you know,

1074
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 1: like they're just and yet they just make me happy,

1075
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 1: you know, Like I don't know there's something in me

1076
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 1: that's like, oh, you know, like that finds those appealing.

1077
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: So what is it? I have no idea, you know,

1078
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: what is it that when I see a man who

1079
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: has you know, stubble or a nice beard on his face,

1080
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 1: I don't feel any desire towards that. And yet many

1081
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: of my female friends or gay friends are like, oh,

1082
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: I love that's so sexy, Like what is that? Well,

1083
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 1: it's just in it's just part of us, you know,

1084
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 1: So I think that's what makes it hard to articulate. Yeah,

1085
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: you know to our partner when it's not being met.

1086
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 1: Maybe we don't even realize because we're not looking on

1087
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 1: ourselves close enough.

1088
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I think the marriage contract that you

1089
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 2: just laid out is so important, right, because it's so

1090
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 2: and also a big part of it is a lack

1091
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 2: of understanding of men and women. Like when you said

1092
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 2: a few moments ago, you were just like, you know,

1093
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 2: people have desires. We have a desire to eat, like

1094
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 2: you know, it's the same thing. It's like, as a man,

1095
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 2: that makes a lot of sense in our brain. And

1096
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 2: the compartmentalization also makes a lot of sense. Like I've

1097
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 2: always said to when I'm talking to my friends who

1098
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 2: are girls who are having trouble and dating, and I'll

1099
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, he sees this is this, and he

1100
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 2: sees this is that, Like they're not connected. But I'm

1101
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 2: a man. That makes sense. And it's almost like we

1102
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 2: have such a limited understanding. And I'm not saying it's

1103
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 2: only gender based, of course, but there's such a limited

1104
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 2: understanding of how the human brain and mind work. Because

1105
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 2: someone saying, well, no, I put the commitment above my desire, right,

1106
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 2: because the commitments more important, and the other person goes, well, yeah,

1107
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 2: I just let my desire slip above the commitment.

1108
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: But you can have both, like I genuinely believe, you

1109
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 1: can have the desire and the commitment, like both can

1110
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 1: be fulfilled. You know, I think so because I know,

1111
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 1: of course, you know, there's a chapter in my book

1112
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: called go without or Go Elsewhere, and that essentially says

1113
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 1: that most people, if they're unwilling to actively communicate with

1114
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 1: themselves and with their partner about what's going on with

1115
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 1: their desire sexually, then you have two choices, and they

1116
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: both suck. Go without or go elsewhere. Nobody wants to

1117
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 1: go without, and going elsewhere is a very fraud terrain.

1118
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 1: But it's not surprising to me that the conversation about

1119
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 1: this has become so challenging because we live in a

1120
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 1: society that rightfully made some big, big changes in the

1121
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: last fifty years to what does it mean to be

1122
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 1: a man? What does it mean to be a woman? Right?

1123
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: Like we that is to reign still, right, I mean,

1124
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 1: I growing up. You know, men in my generation, you know,

1125
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: you're either Richard Simmons or Clint Eastwood, those were your

1126
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 1: two choices, like you either were, you know, very stoic

1127
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 1: and very or you were gay. That was what the

1128
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 1: two choices were, or you were a feet you know.

1129
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: And now, thankfully, one of the beautiful changes that I

1130
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 1: think has happened in society is we recognize that all

1131
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 1: of us have, if you want to call it, the

1132
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 1: masculine and the feminine in us. We all have varying

1133
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 1: ratios of it, and we've changed what it means to

1134
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 1: be a man and to be a woman. But we've

1135
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 1: kind of treated dantruff with decapitation because we've said, hey,

1136
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 1: these these fixed models of what is a man and

1137
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 1: what is a woman, and how do men behave? And

1138
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 1: how do women behave? And what is a man's natural tendency?

1139
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 1: What is a woman's natural tendency? We realized those were

1140
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 1: prisons and those were creating unequal and unjust outcomes. So

1141
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:00,320
Speaker 1: I applaud that we've taken this step to go all right,

1142
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 1: but not all men okay, but not all women are

1143
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: that way. But we've gone so far and over correcting

1144
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:08,920
Speaker 1: as we as a species are prone to doing that,

1145
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 1: I think now we're not It's like scandalous to acknowledge

1146
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 1: what you just acknowledged, which is when when I'm talking

1147
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 1: to a group of women who I'm friends with, and

1148
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 1: I say, they're describing something that you know, a man

1149
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: in their life did, and I go, oh, I know

1150
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 1: exactly what that, Like no he saw this, or oh

1151
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 1: no he thought that. They go really like like I

1152
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 1: was speaking, like I have a Rosetta stone in a

1153
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 1: language they don't speak. And by the way, it goes

1154
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:40,320
Speaker 1: the other way, yes, Like there are so many times

1155
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 1: I will listen. I have an office full of women

1156
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 1: and sometimes of different generations, and they'll be talking to

1157
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 1: each other, and it's a small office, so I can

1158
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 1: hear their conversation. And sometimes I feel like I'm like

1159
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 1: Margaret Mead observing maybe Yanamomo, you know, like I'm just

1160
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: like a cultural anthropologist who's been dropped into a different planet,

1161
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 1: you know, because they're talking about like I had. One

1162
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 1: of them said something the other day about she was

1163
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 1: describing a date she went out on. She said, oh,

1164
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 1: he did that thing where like when I got up

1165
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 1: from the table, he kind of went to get up

1166
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:15,480
Speaker 1: and then didn't know if he should get up or not,

1167
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 1: you know, and the other young woman goes, oh, I

1168
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 1: love that, you know, And I thought that is the weirdest,

1169
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 1: and yet I get it, you know, like because it

1170
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: it was like a vulnerability and also a sense of chivalry,

1171
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 1: but also a sense of content, like being self conscious.

1172
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,800
Speaker 1: And and I thought, like, God, if you said to

1173
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 1: a guy, you know, here's I'm going to be your

1174
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: new dating coach. I'm going to be a new pickup

1175
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 1: artist guy, you know, like maybe this is my next career,

1176
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,960
Speaker 1: you know, And and you point out these strange little things,

1177
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 1: you know, But to do that, we have to acknowledge that,

1178
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 1: you know, there are limits to our our understanding of

1179
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 1: the opposite sex, and that there that there is some

1180
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: difference between us again hormonal, biological on a very basic level. Yeah,

1181
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:11,840
Speaker 1: and you know, I think even men, men's experience of

1182
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: sex I observe as a man and as friends of

1183
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 1: many men, it's like much more reductionist and simple. Like

1184
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 1: we're very like you know, it's like eating like it's like,

1185
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 1: oh it's great, yeah, like unloaded the gun. You know,

1186
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 1: we're good. Whereas like women, in my experience and observation,

1187
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 1: it's like, well what feels good like one day two

1188
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 1: days later, doesn't feel as good. And again, some of

1189
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 1: that is probably hormones, Some of that is but I

1190
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 1: think like learning to navigate a relationship, Perhaps same sex

1191
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 1: marriages have less of a fraught relationship with that because

1192
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 1: you understand each other's perhaps biology in a different way.

1193
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 1: But I think opposite, you know, heterosexual relationships, we are

1194
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:59,080
Speaker 1: really trying to navigate a creature that has some distinct

1195
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 1: differences from physically and hormonally. And I think without good communication,

1196
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 1: how are you supposed to learn that language.

1197
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:25,439
Speaker 2: I'm sure you hear this a lot as well, where

1198
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 2: like after a while he just didn't want to communicate,

1199
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:31,120
Speaker 2: or like they just didn't want to communicate, where like

1200
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 2: what you're suggesting is still part of a healthy relationship

1201
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 2: dynamic where you can initiate something and even if it's

1202
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:42,000
Speaker 2: not met immediately, there's a certain point at which there's

1203
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:42,640
Speaker 2: a conversation.

1204
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:45,919
Speaker 1: But it wasn't on the first date. Yeah, it wasn't

1205
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:48,160
Speaker 1: on the first day. I could see that. See, that's

1206
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 1: the thing that I think makes marriage such an interesting

1207
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 1: entry point for a conversation about love, because I don't

1208
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: know that the too correlate.

1209
01:07:58,040 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 2: I agree, year and.

1210
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 1: I certainly don't think there's called I don't think marriage

1211
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 1: makes you really love each other more deeply or more

1212
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:06,440
Speaker 1: likely to be fidelitous on it does that at all. No,

1213
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,360
Speaker 1: you may have the opposite effect in some way. But

1214
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 1: what it does give us as an entry point into

1215
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 1: we were at some point so enamored with each other

1216
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 1: that we said, out of the eight billion options, I'm

1217
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 1: picking you. I mean that is a gigantic Like I

1218
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 1: live in New York City. There's a lot of restaurants.

1219
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 1: Sometimes I am paralyzed by the number of choices when

1220
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 1: I go, okay, I'm an order something. There's so many options,

1221
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:46,840
Speaker 1: all within three blocks of my apartment, eight billion options.

1222
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 1: And you chose this person and they chose you. So

1223
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:54,600
Speaker 1: at some point there is this abundance of goodwill, this

1224
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 1: abundance of connection. And when I wrote the book, it

1225
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 1: really wasn't meant for people who were in crisis. It

1226
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 1: was really meant for people who were not. It was

1227
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 1: meant to be a wedding gift. It was meant to

1228
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:13,639
Speaker 1: be something you give to engaged couple to say, it's

1229
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:16,519
Speaker 1: like you just got the new car. Here's how you

1230
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,640
Speaker 1: maintain it so that it stays. Because this is a

1231
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 1: car You're going to drive for the rest of your life,

1232
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:24,760
Speaker 1: so don't you want to take care of it. If

1233
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 1: I said to you, you're going to have one car

1234
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:28,800
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life, you would change the oil,

1235
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:31,920
Speaker 1: you would check the time, you would do routine preventative maintenance.

1236
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 1: Because this is the only car I'm ever going to have,

1237
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:36,679
Speaker 1: and if it starts to fall apart, it's the only

1238
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 1: car I have, and I don't want to walk everywhere.

1239
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 1: So I am going to take very good care of this.

1240
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:47,599
Speaker 1: And so I think leveraging, like when you say people

1241
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 1: say and I hear it all the time, are absolutely correct, like, hey,

1242
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 1: just stop talking to me. Is that a function of

1243
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:57,840
Speaker 1: the fact that the way we were communicating wasn't productive.

1244
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:00,599
Speaker 1: It made this person feel defensive, It made them down,

1245
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 1: like because at some point you were still connecting. And

1246
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:07,200
Speaker 1: it's so so there was a there was a story

1247
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 1: you were writing and you lost the plot and that's okay.

1248
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 1: Like I love to read, and I read at night.

1249
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 1: It's sort of like my brain's signal to go to sleep.

1250
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:20,559
Speaker 1: And I have to tell you so many times I'm

1251
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:24,680
Speaker 1: reading and I'm tired and I'm in bed and I

1252
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: realize I don't remember what the last several paragraphs were,

1253
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 1: so I have to sort of stop and go, Okay,

1254
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 1: let me go back, let me go back to where

1255
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 1: I lost the plot. That's what I would say is

1256
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 1: that if you're at a place in your relationship where

1257
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 1: unfortunately one or both of you are not communicating anymore,

1258
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:48,519
Speaker 1: I don't think the answer is keep going in that direction.

1259
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 1: I think the answer is where did we lose the plot?

1260
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 1: And then I think there are some ways to try

1261
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:57,800
Speaker 1: to correct back to it. You won't be surprised to

1262
01:10:57,800 --> 01:10:59,720
Speaker 1: hear that when people tell you the story of their life,

1263
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 1: they're usually the hero. And so when when people come

1264
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:07,439
Speaker 1: into my office and they tell me the story of

1265
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:10,599
Speaker 1: their marriage, yeah, you know. David Byrne in The Talking

1266
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 1: Head said, facts all come with points of view in

1267
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:15,280
Speaker 1: facts don't do what I want them to. And I

1268
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:19,439
Speaker 1: think that my my career has been a real example

1269
01:11:19,479 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 1: of that because you do. It's actually how I know

1270
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:26,760
Speaker 1: I'm probably going to get along with the client is

1271
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 1: if when they tell the story of their marriage, they

1272
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 1: they're neither the hero nor the villain.

1273
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, you.

1274
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 1: Know, like if I said to you, tell me about

1275
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:39,840
Speaker 1: your marriage, and you said you know, here's the things

1276
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:42,400
Speaker 1: I think I do right, and here's the things I

1277
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:45,880
Speaker 1: could get better at, and here's the things I'm abysmally

1278
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:49,240
Speaker 1: bad at and I'd like to get better. We're in

1279
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:51,280
Speaker 1: a good place, yeah, exactly, we're in a good place.

1280
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:53,040
Speaker 2: But that's not happening when you go to get a divorce.

1281
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:53,599
Speaker 2: That's the point.

1282
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,320
Speaker 1: It's like, when you go to get a divorce, usually

1283
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,439
Speaker 1: I've got a halo, they've got horns. Of course, let's

1284
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 1: get after it.

1285
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:03,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, of course, because you want to get someone onside.

1286
01:12:04,200 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 2: And then you yeah, I have similar and I mean

1287
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 2: I coach people and couples and work with people, and

1288
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:12,840
Speaker 2: like you said, people people lie to their kind of

1289
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:15,559
Speaker 2: therapist coaches in that lane. And that's for sure, because

1290
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:17,639
Speaker 2: someone will come to me and said they have their

1291
01:12:17,640 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 2: heart broken, and then as time goes on, they will

1292
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:22,559
Speaker 2: send me emails that the other person sent them, and

1293
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:27,280
Speaker 2: the emails actually seem really thoughtful and comprehensive and like

1294
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:33,320
Speaker 2: very emotionally intelligent and articulate. And you're like, what you

1295
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 2: told me that this person was the devil, And now

1296
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,960
Speaker 2: I'm reading their emails because you had to share them

1297
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 2: with me because of some context.

1298
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 1: That's why I said I think the most dangerous lives

1299
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: are the ones you tell.

1300
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:45,360
Speaker 2: Yourself yea, yeah, yeah, and you need them for somebody I.

1301
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 1: Don't even know. Sometimes you don't even know that you're lying. Yeah,

1302
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:50,519
Speaker 1: like you just you know, you're just so caught in

1303
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 1: your view of the thing, and we hold on to

1304
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:56,479
Speaker 1: that so tight, you know, like because it Yeah, I

1305
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 1: feel like if if, if we can acknowledge that we're

1306
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 1: a mystery to ourselves, you know that that feels powerless

1307
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:03,960
Speaker 1: and frightening. I mean, so much of what we do

1308
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 1: wrong we do for a feeling of control we don't

1309
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,160
Speaker 1: actually have. Yes, Yes, I think that might be the

1310
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:12,920
Speaker 1: secret is to like learn how to find you know,

1311
01:13:13,439 --> 01:13:17,519
Speaker 1: there's an axiom that if you don't learn how to

1312
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:20,439
Speaker 1: find joy in the snow, you'll have less joy in

1313
01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:23,800
Speaker 1: your life and precisely the same amount of snow. Yeah.

1314
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 1: Like so I feel like, if you don't learn how

1315
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:31,920
Speaker 1: to find joy and peace in chaos, you will have

1316
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:35,880
Speaker 1: less joy and peace. Yeah, precisely the same amount of chaos. Yes, So,

1317
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 1: because chaos is the lack of control, you know. So

1318
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:39,920
Speaker 1: I think that's a big piece.

1319
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I love that, Yes, I learned

1320
01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 2: a lot of similar lessons in the monastery. When I'm

1321
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 2: totally digressing that we're on this two to three day

1322
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 2: train journey in India from north to south forty eight

1323
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:57,679
Speaker 2: hours roughly with a bunch of stops. It's a long journey.

1324
01:13:57,720 --> 01:14:00,599
Speaker 2: And the toilets are so dirty India. I don't if

1325
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:02,719
Speaker 2: you ever been, It's like the toilet on a public

1326
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:06,040
Speaker 2: train in India is like walking into a sewage system.

1327
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 2: And so I decided I'm going to fast for three days,

1328
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 2: like I'm not going to eat because I can't. I

1329
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:11,280
Speaker 2: don't want to use the bar.

1330
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:12,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to be in that pisode.

1331
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:14,360
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and so and I'm getting off at the

1332
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 2: stops to meditate because the train, a public train in

1333
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:22,080
Speaker 2: coach is like yeah, your bodies, there's like no like

1334
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:24,519
Speaker 2: and I've we've got I meant to have a bunk,

1335
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:26,920
Speaker 2: but I have my seat because everyone's sitting next to me.

1336
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:29,439
Speaker 2: These people sitting on the floor, lying down on the floor.

1337
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:32,400
Speaker 2: They've got their cycle, they've got their tires, they've got everything.

1338
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:35,160
Speaker 2: So I get off at the stops to meditate, and

1339
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:36,920
Speaker 2: then my teacher goes to me after it goes what

1340
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:38,240
Speaker 2: are you up to and I go, my monk teacher

1341
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:39,559
Speaker 2: and I go. He goes, what are you doing? And

1342
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 2: I go, oh, well, like I'm getting off finding a

1343
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:44,240
Speaker 2: quiet spot meditating because this because it's a long haul

1344
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 2: and it's like ten twenty minutes. And then I jump

1345
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 2: back on the train when I hear the hear the

1346
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 2: you know, the train's about to take off, and he goes,

1347
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:53,240
Speaker 2: do you think life's going to be like the chaotic

1348
01:14:53,280 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 2: train or do you think it's going to be like

1349
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:57,519
Speaker 2: the peaceful start right? And I was like, oh, I

1350
01:14:57,600 --> 01:14:59,479
Speaker 2: get it, and he was just like, learn to meditate

1351
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:01,679
Speaker 2: on the train, is the teacher? Yeah, And it's your point.

1352
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:03,400
Speaker 2: It's it's the same thing as like, learn to meditate

1353
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 2: on the train.

1354
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:07,960
Speaker 1: But I think there's value also, like in the context

1355
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about, because it's very funny to

1356
01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 1: me when people say, you know, we've been having some

1357
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:16,320
Speaker 1: rough patches in our marriage, so we're gonna go on

1358
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 1: vacation together. And I think there's value in that because

1359
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:22,200
Speaker 1: we're gonna give each other our undivided attention. But I

1360
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:24,720
Speaker 1: don't think it's like why those TV shows like The

1361
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:27,720
Speaker 1: Bachelor and things like that, like it's not hard to

1362
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 1: feel in love with someone when you're on a beautiful,

1363
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:32,760
Speaker 1: idyllic setting and you have nothing to do all day

1364
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:35,639
Speaker 1: except sort of love on it show, like with within

1365
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:39,799
Speaker 1: bikinis and shorts. Like, like, the hard part is in

1366
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 1: the midst of all of the day to day, how

1367
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:46,519
Speaker 1: do we maintain connection? Like how do we find peace

1368
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:49,920
Speaker 1: in the storm? Because life is constantly going to be

1369
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:53,040
Speaker 1: the packed train and the storm and the chaos. So

1370
01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 1: how do we maintain that depth of connection? Because, by

1371
01:15:57,320 --> 01:15:59,519
Speaker 1: the way, that's when we need it, Like, when you

1372
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 1: need serenity that comes from meditation is not when you're

1373
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:07,200
Speaker 1: sitting by the idyllic, beautiful stream in the peace and

1374
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:10,559
Speaker 1: quiet that is by definition going to be a peaceful,

1375
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,680
Speaker 1: serene moment. Like you need to find that in the

1376
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:15,640
Speaker 1: chaos of the day to day, and you need to

1377
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:17,840
Speaker 1: find it on the packed train. So yeah, I mean,

1378
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:19,479
Speaker 1: how do you learn to do it except to do it?

1379
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:22,719
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely? Should everyone get a prenup?

1380
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:26,920
Speaker 1: Yes, Well, I'll actually take a different approach to that.

1381
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:30,519
Speaker 1: Everyone has a prenup. You have a prenup. Everyone has

1382
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 1: a prenup. It's either one that's written by the government

1383
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:37,240
Speaker 1: or it's one that's written by you and the person

1384
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 1: who you allege you love more than the other eight

1385
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:42,200
Speaker 1: billion other options, but every because what is a prenup?

1386
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:45,600
Speaker 1: A prenup is a contract where two people agree to

1387
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:49,640
Speaker 1: specific rules that will apply to their marriage if it

1388
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:53,040
Speaker 1: ends in something other than death. It's a weird way

1389
01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:56,639
Speaker 1: to parse it, but it's completely one hundred percent accurate.

1390
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:00,280
Speaker 1: So all marriages end death or divorce. You hope yours

1391
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 1: ends in death. That's a weird thing to say, but

1392
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:04,000
Speaker 1: it is. You hope it ends in death till death

1393
01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 1: to us part. But if it doesn't, there's a rule

1394
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:11,679
Speaker 1: set that will apply. Who should right that rule set?

1395
01:17:12,280 --> 01:17:14,840
Speaker 1: Whether you're on the left or the right or the

1396
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:19,840
Speaker 1: unhappy middle. Right, now, we can all agree that the

1397
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:24,280
Speaker 1: government there's some issues, whatever government we're talking about, Like

1398
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:27,599
Speaker 1: every country, everyone goes, there's some things. I don't anyone

1399
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:30,840
Speaker 1: who's ever been to the DMV. I've never walked into

1400
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:33,519
Speaker 1: the DMV and thought these people should be in charge

1401
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 1: of everything. This is great, this is the best and

1402
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:39,680
Speaker 1: brightest minds working in the most efficient manner possible. I

1403
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:41,800
Speaker 1: should let them make the rules that govern my marriage.

1404
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:45,759
Speaker 1: So if you don't have a prenup, what you're saying,

1405
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 1: is I trust the government, present and future, a government

1406
01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:56,200
Speaker 1: I haven't even seen yet. Because instead of writing this

1407
01:17:56,320 --> 01:18:00,519
Speaker 1: contract with my partner and amending it from time to

1408
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:04,760
Speaker 1: time if we'd like changing it as our circumstances change,

1409
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:08,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to trust that the rule set that will

1410
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:12,440
Speaker 1: be in effect at a time in the future, uncertain

1411
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 1: that that will be a rule set that is best

1412
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:19,200
Speaker 1: for me. That's crazy, That's absolutely good. There is nothing

1413
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:23,000
Speaker 1: about that that is rational at all. What you're simply

1414
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:25,760
Speaker 1: saying is I don't want to have this conversation right now.

1415
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:28,639
Speaker 1: I'll just whatever whatever they're serving at the restaurant, I'll eite.

1416
01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:32,920
Speaker 1: And I think that that's very shortsighted. But it's a

1417
01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:35,519
Speaker 1: function of the fact that we've been taught to view

1418
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:38,640
Speaker 1: prenups a certain way, and that is that you have

1419
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:42,320
Speaker 1: a lack of confidence in the staying power of this relationship.

1420
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,519
Speaker 1: I think that's changing, and I'm grateful for that, not

1421
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:48,280
Speaker 1: just from a professional standpoint, because there's never been a

1422
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:51,160
Speaker 1: divorce layer that made very much money on prenups. It's

1423
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:54,360
Speaker 1: just not a high profit item litigation. There's much more

1424
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:56,600
Speaker 1: money in helping people tear each other to shreds in

1425
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,880
Speaker 1: a courtroom than there ever was in mediation or in

1426
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:03,120
Speaker 1: prenuptial agreements. Prenupial agreements, if anything, are bad for divorce

1427
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:07,559
Speaker 1: lawyers because they simplify the uncoupling if it happens, because

1428
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:11,080
Speaker 1: you have a rule set. Yeah, but I always I

1429
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:13,639
Speaker 1: think we need we are seeing. I think some changes

1430
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 1: in the way we're normalizing prenups as a society, and

1431
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:18,519
Speaker 1: I think that's really really healthy.

1432
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:20,000
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's even in the way you just

1433
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:21,960
Speaker 2: spoke about it, because I think when you realize, oh,

1434
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:25,280
Speaker 2: you have one anyway, and when that kind of locks in,

1435
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:27,120
Speaker 2: you go, oh, yeah, we because you know, that's the

1436
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:29,920
Speaker 2: fascinating thing about marriage is that you don't even it's

1437
01:19:29,960 --> 01:19:33,240
Speaker 2: been so normalized that you don't even realize that you're

1438
01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:36,280
Speaker 2: getting into a contract with the stay and the most.

1439
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:39,240
Speaker 1: Legally significant thing you will do in your life other

1440
01:19:39,320 --> 01:19:43,599
Speaker 1: than dying. Seriously, like you buy an apartment, there's lead

1441
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:46,160
Speaker 1: paint disclosures, a hud one, there's a million forms that

1442
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:48,880
Speaker 1: disclose informa. You get married. You can't get a pamphlet, nothing,

1443
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:51,800
Speaker 1: literally nothing, you get no explain it. The first time

1444
01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:55,599
Speaker 1: most people learn what happened legally when they got married

1445
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:59,200
Speaker 1: is when they're in my office, which is the worst

1446
01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 1: possible time to learn that. Like, you don't want to

1447
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:04,799
Speaker 1: learn how to fight when you're in a fight, totally,

1448
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:06,880
Speaker 1: you need to learn in advance as far in advance

1449
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 1: as possible. So I have always thought like we would

1450
01:20:10,120 --> 01:20:13,479
Speaker 1: do the world a tremendous service by having anyone who's

1451
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:17,880
Speaker 1: gonna get married have some premarital education. Yeah, at least

1452
01:20:17,960 --> 01:20:20,720
Speaker 1: understand what you're signing on for the problem with it

1453
01:20:20,760 --> 01:20:24,479
Speaker 1: is without a prena it is it is the most

1454
01:20:24,520 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 1: significant contract you would ever sign, the marriage contract. Okay,

1455
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 1: but it can be changed without your consent and without

1456
01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:41,880
Speaker 1: your knowledge by the government in giant ways, and unlike

1457
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:44,920
Speaker 1: other contracts, Like if I if I had a contract

1458
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:46,920
Speaker 1: to like, what's a contract? Most of us do like

1459
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 1: an apartment a lease? A lease is a contract. So

1460
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:51,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to rent this, Well, I'm gonna give you money,

1461
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:55,440
Speaker 1: you're gonna let me stay in this apartment. Totally fair contract.

1462
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:58,559
Speaker 1: If one day you, as a landlord come in and say, oh,

1463
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:00,720
Speaker 1: I know we have that contract. You're going to be

1464
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 1: in a different apartment it's much smaller and smells, Then

1465
01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:06,960
Speaker 1: what do I say, okay, well, then no, you're breaking

1466
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:09,360
Speaker 1: the lease. So now I'm not going to pay you.

1467
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:13,480
Speaker 1: That's fair. That's not how it works in the marriage contract.

1468
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:17,800
Speaker 1: In the marriage contract, when the state says, oh yeah,

1469
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:21,360
Speaker 1: alimony now has a formula, or alimony is no longer taxable.

1470
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:23,640
Speaker 1: Right now, this is what we're going to do with

1471
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 1: a division of property. You can't say, oh, well, that's

1472
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:28,400
Speaker 1: not the that's not the rules I signed on for.

1473
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:31,280
Speaker 1: So now we're just gonna end this. Well no, no,

1474
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:33,760
Speaker 1: you're not allowed. You're not allowed. You can't opt out

1475
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:36,880
Speaker 1: of the contract. And they can change, the government can change.

1476
01:21:37,160 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 1: So again. You know, I have lots of conservative friends,

1477
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:42,639
Speaker 1: and they're all very quick to talk about your marriage

1478
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:44,839
Speaker 1: is so important and no fault divorce is the scourge

1479
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:46,880
Speaker 1: of the universe. And I always say to them, I'm like,

1480
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:50,080
Speaker 1: you have a tremendous amount of confidence in the government

1481
01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:53,880
Speaker 1: if you're getting married without a prenup, a tremendous amount,

1482
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:57,280
Speaker 1: because you're saying, not only is the present rule set

1483
01:21:57,320 --> 01:22:00,000
Speaker 1: that I don't necessarily understand acceptable to me, but any

1484
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:03,920
Speaker 1: future rule set. And over the last twenty years, at

1485
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:06,200
Speaker 1: least in the United States, but most countries that I

1486
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:10,080
Speaker 1: can think of. There has been shifts in government were

1487
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:12,040
Speaker 1: at any particular time someone would say, oh, I think

1488
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:14,439
Speaker 1: the president is terrible. I have several friends that four

1489
01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:16,280
Speaker 1: years ago thought the president was terrible, and I have

1490
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:19,000
Speaker 1: friends who think that this current president is terrible. So

1491
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:22,320
Speaker 1: whichever side of the aisle you're on, we should have

1492
01:22:22,439 --> 01:22:26,000
Speaker 1: a healthy distrust of allowing the government to make a

1493
01:22:26,080 --> 01:22:29,040
Speaker 1: contract for us that we can't get out of. And

1494
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 1: I think that's what a prenup. Prenup takes it out

1495
01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 1: of the hands of the government and puts it, I

1496
01:22:34,200 --> 01:22:36,280
Speaker 1: think where it belongs with these two people. But what's

1497
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:38,839
Speaker 1: the problem. It's not the expense. One of the cheapest

1498
01:22:38,840 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 1: things we do. We have to have that conversation.

1499
01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:43,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's it's a great It's actually side a

1500
01:22:43,840 --> 01:22:47,400
Speaker 2: friend who got married recently and you know, in love

1501
01:22:47,439 --> 01:22:51,040
Speaker 2: everything else, and before the marriage, they decided to do

1502
01:22:51,080 --> 01:22:52,920
Speaker 2: a prenup, and he was talking about how hard it

1503
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:55,400
Speaker 2: was to bring it up, how hard it was to

1504
01:22:56,160 --> 01:22:58,120
Speaker 2: have the conversation, but he was saying that it actually

1505
01:22:58,160 --> 01:23:00,479
Speaker 2: gave them all the skills they'll need. My god, it's well,

1506
01:23:00,520 --> 01:23:02,639
Speaker 2: the most difficult conversation.

1507
01:23:02,439 --> 01:23:06,639
Speaker 1: To tell you. I've had a number of clients NNNY

1508
01:23:07,280 --> 01:23:09,160
Speaker 1: who come in and say, I don't even know how

1509
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:11,120
Speaker 1: to bring this up. Like, I represent a lot of

1510
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:14,240
Speaker 1: people in finance, a lot of men in finance, young men,

1511
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:17,799
Speaker 1: late twenties, early thirties, high net worth, and they're marrying

1512
01:23:17,840 --> 01:23:20,160
Speaker 1: someone who's not in that space. So they're marrying a

1513
01:23:20,240 --> 01:23:22,759
Speaker 1: yoga teacher, they're marrying, you know, someone who's an artist.

1514
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:26,879
Speaker 1: And they say, look, I have a lot of confidence

1515
01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:28,439
Speaker 1: in the marriage. I wouldn't mary this person if I

1516
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 1: didn't believe in it, but I, you know, I want

1517
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:34,040
Speaker 1: to have some protections in place. And these are people

1518
01:23:34,040 --> 01:23:36,880
Speaker 1: who are phenomenal at their jobs. Their jobs involve a

1519
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:40,080
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of risk. Like there's so much less risk

1520
01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:43,440
Speaker 1: adverse than I am. Like they, you know, they move markets,

1521
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 1: you know, and they make big bets, you know, and

1522
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 1: they're terrified of saying, hey, you know, we're getting married

1523
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:56,080
Speaker 1: and all, like there's going to be rules that, you know,

1524
01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:58,400
Speaker 1: govern this, and like maybe we should be the ones

1525
01:23:58,439 --> 01:24:01,160
Speaker 1: to make the rule because it's met with such a

1526
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:03,320
Speaker 1: sense of what do you mean? And by the way,

1527
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:07,439
Speaker 1: it also creates in the person who has perhaps less

1528
01:24:07,439 --> 01:24:10,240
Speaker 1: incentive in that situation to have a prenup, that a

1529
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:12,519
Speaker 1: prenup would be worse for them rather than better in

1530
01:24:12,520 --> 01:24:14,840
Speaker 1: the event of a divorce. Again, at that moment, you

1531
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:18,360
Speaker 1: don't know what the future holds for anybody that that

1532
01:24:18,400 --> 01:24:20,880
Speaker 1: person has plausible deniability as to why they're against it.

1533
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:23,040
Speaker 1: Like they're not going to say, well, no, I don't

1534
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:24,160
Speaker 1: want to preenn up because I want to be able

1535
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:26,800
Speaker 1: to take you for everything you're worth. What they would

1536
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:29,639
Speaker 1: say is, oh, well no, why would you need a prenup,

1537
01:24:29,640 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 1: Like we're going to stay married forever? Don't you wouldn't

1538
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:34,200
Speaker 1: you bet on that? You bet on this stock? You

1539
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:39,160
Speaker 1: won't bet on this. But here's the problems. It's not

1540
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 1: betting on a stock because you know, investing in a stock,

1541
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:46,840
Speaker 1: I know my maximum loss is whatever I put in right,

1542
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:48,920
Speaker 1: so it goes to zero, so I know what my

1543
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:51,880
Speaker 1: loss is. It's more like shorting the stock, where there's

1544
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:54,400
Speaker 1: almost no limit to how much you could potentially lose

1545
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:58,200
Speaker 1: because you're talking about a future you that you can't

1546
01:24:58,240 --> 01:25:00,120
Speaker 1: foresee at this moment what it's going to look like.

1547
01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:03,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's the same phenomenon that I think. But

1548
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:07,760
Speaker 1: it's But I have had clients who then come to

1549
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:11,160
Speaker 1: me and say, you know, even if we never got

1550
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:16,200
Speaker 1: a prenup, having conversations about it, Yeah, was so good

1551
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 1: because really the way that I and I do get

1552
01:25:20,200 --> 01:25:25,120
Speaker 1: calls from a lot of particularly young men but both genders,

1553
01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:27,919
Speaker 1: saying how do I have a conversation about a prenup?

1554
01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:31,479
Speaker 1: And I've always thought a really great entry point is

1555
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:35,200
Speaker 1: to say what I believe to be true, which is

1556
01:25:35,240 --> 01:25:37,920
Speaker 1: it's very hard to feel loved if you don't feel safe.

1557
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:42,240
Speaker 1: That everyone should feel safe. Like I've represented victims of

1558
01:25:42,479 --> 01:25:44,679
Speaker 1: domestic violence for many years, and I can tell you

1559
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:47,040
Speaker 1: if you love someone, you want them to be safe.

1560
01:25:47,080 --> 01:25:51,559
Speaker 1: It's fundamental, right, So I think that's a good entry

1561
01:25:51,560 --> 01:25:55,880
Speaker 1: point to say, what do we each need to feel safe?

1562
01:25:56,040 --> 01:25:57,759
Speaker 1: And most of the time I think if you parse

1563
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:02,040
Speaker 1: it that way, you know, if someone said to me, look,

1564
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:07,479
Speaker 1: I will marry you and I but in the event

1565
01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:10,559
Speaker 1: we split up because you have more than me. I

1566
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:15,040
Speaker 1: don't want to have nothing. I want to have some security.

1567
01:26:15,200 --> 01:26:16,880
Speaker 1: Who could argue with that? Who could argue with the

1568
01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:19,240
Speaker 1: logic of that? Like, of course, of course, and by

1569
01:26:19,240 --> 01:26:21,040
Speaker 1: the way, I don't want you to be with me

1570
01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:23,600
Speaker 1: purely out of the sense that well, what am I

1571
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:25,200
Speaker 1: going to do. I'm gonna be destitute if I'm not

1572
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:27,240
Speaker 1: with you. I want you to have the option of

1573
01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:29,720
Speaker 1: not being here. Like if your spouse is only not

1574
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:32,479
Speaker 1: cheating on you because you're tracking their location, what kind

1575
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:35,360
Speaker 1: of security is that really if that's the only thing

1576
01:26:35,439 --> 01:26:38,000
Speaker 1: preventing them. So I think it's the same thing like

1577
01:26:38,040 --> 01:26:42,360
Speaker 1: saying to someone, look, I want to feel you're owed something,

1578
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:44,960
Speaker 1: but are you owed everything? Okay, we agree, you're not

1579
01:26:45,000 --> 01:26:47,880
Speaker 1: out everything. Hey, I'm going to need help from you

1580
01:26:47,960 --> 01:26:50,439
Speaker 1: if we split up. Of course you're going to need house.

1581
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:51,960
Speaker 1: So let's figure out what that looks like. Let's have

1582
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:54,759
Speaker 1: a conversation about how to make each other feel safe.

1583
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:56,680
Speaker 1: That feels like an act of love to me.

1584
01:26:57,000 --> 01:26:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's yeah, And that's a much

1585
01:26:59,080 --> 01:27:00,680
Speaker 2: healthier way to have that conversation.

1586
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:03,200
Speaker 1: And I think it's totally honest. I really do. I

1587
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:06,120
Speaker 1: think it's totally honest because even a lot of my

1588
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:12,839
Speaker 1: job is figuring out what people are actually trying to say. Yeah, yeah,

1589
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:16,560
Speaker 1: you know, like when someone says I want fifty to

1590
01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:19,040
Speaker 1: fifty custody, I want fifty to fifty custody, Like, no

1591
01:27:19,240 --> 01:27:23,640
Speaker 1: sane person analyzes their time with their children by percentages,

1592
01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:25,880
Speaker 1: like I never when my kids were young, When you

1593
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:27,720
Speaker 1: know I've only spent forty seven percent of the time

1594
01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:29,519
Speaker 1: with this Grab your glove, billy, we got to go

1595
01:27:29,560 --> 01:27:31,759
Speaker 1: outside and have three percent of time, Like that's insane.

1596
01:27:31,800 --> 01:27:34,599
Speaker 1: It's an insane way to analyze something. So really, what

1597
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:36,360
Speaker 1: is a man saying If he comes in and says

1598
01:27:36,400 --> 01:27:38,120
Speaker 1: I want fifty to fifty custody, he's saying I don't

1599
01:27:38,120 --> 01:27:41,040
Speaker 1: want to be an uninvolved second class parent. I don't

1600
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:43,479
Speaker 1: want to be like the fun parent and the other

1601
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:45,960
Speaker 1: person does all the big decisions in heavy lifting, Like

1602
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:48,200
Speaker 1: I want to be actively involved in the hard part

1603
01:27:48,240 --> 01:27:51,360
Speaker 1: and the fun part. That's a very worthwhile sentiment.

1604
01:27:51,439 --> 01:27:53,920
Speaker 2: Like that's the thing we need to learn to say,

1605
01:27:54,240 --> 01:27:56,639
Speaker 2: because when you hear that, there's just so much argue

1606
01:27:56,640 --> 01:27:58,519
Speaker 2: with it. Yeah, there's so much depth to it, there's

1607
01:27:58,520 --> 01:27:59,040
Speaker 2: so much.

1608
01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:02,320
Speaker 1: Well, when you argue both sides of every issue for

1609
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:06,120
Speaker 1: twenty five years, you really do start to figure out

1610
01:28:06,479 --> 01:28:10,200
Speaker 1: that a lot of this is like what we're saying

1611
01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:13,400
Speaker 1: underneath what we're saying, like the position that we're taking

1612
01:28:14,360 --> 01:28:17,800
Speaker 1: versus the principles behind it. A lot of this is

1613
01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 1: just like miscommunication, And I don't mean miscommunication and that

1614
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:25,760
Speaker 1: you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I mean that we're not

1615
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:28,639
Speaker 1: really even in touch with what we're trying to say,

1616
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:31,840
Speaker 1: you know, because again even the practical example of like

1617
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:33,679
Speaker 1: well we never have sex anymore, we don't have sex

1618
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:36,519
Speaker 1: as much as we used to common refraining people's marriages,

1619
01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:42,040
Speaker 1: what you're really saying underneath that is so lovely, like

1620
01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:45,880
Speaker 1: that I love that aspect of us. When I don't

1621
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:47,120
Speaker 1: have it, I miss it.

1622
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:48,719
Speaker 2: Who wouldn't want.

1623
01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:51,559
Speaker 1: To be told when you're away I miss you? Why?

1624
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:54,479
Speaker 1: Because when you're here it makes my life better. What

1625
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:58,080
Speaker 1: could be sweeter than to have someone feel that way

1626
01:28:58,120 --> 01:29:00,240
Speaker 1: about you? But when you say it is oh, you're

1627
01:29:00,240 --> 01:29:03,840
Speaker 1: only office again tonight, well okay, now I'm on the defensive.

1628
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:04,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1629
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:06,360
Speaker 1: Well and by the way, and me saying well, I

1630
01:29:06,400 --> 01:29:09,599
Speaker 1: have to I've got this, you know, whereas if you said,

1631
01:29:10,040 --> 01:29:12,320
Speaker 1: you know, I'm terrified, like I want to be a

1632
01:29:12,360 --> 01:29:16,160
Speaker 1: really good provider to you, like you've trusted me to

1633
01:29:16,280 --> 01:29:18,599
Speaker 1: keep you safe and to give you and our kids

1634
01:29:18,640 --> 01:29:22,200
Speaker 1: the things we need. And I feel that weight sometimes

1635
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:25,240
Speaker 1: and like I don't know, maybe I'm doing too much,

1636
01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:26,840
Speaker 1: But God, I'd rather do too much than do too

1637
01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:30,200
Speaker 1: little because I'm terrified I'm going to fail. You. Who

1638
01:29:30,240 --> 01:29:34,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't say to that person, okay, you'll go, And also no,

1639
01:29:34,600 --> 01:29:37,080
Speaker 1: I'll love you even if you fail. Yeah, Like, what

1640
01:29:37,200 --> 01:29:41,720
Speaker 1: a lovely thing if we could just put down that

1641
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:46,760
Speaker 1: ego driven myopia that we all have, because I think

1642
01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:52,040
Speaker 1: underneath all of this, you know, I don't believe people

1643
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:55,880
Speaker 1: do evil because they're evil. I think they mistake it

1644
01:29:55,920 --> 01:29:56,640
Speaker 1: for happiness.

1645
01:29:57,680 --> 01:30:00,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, even just hearing you say that, just

1646
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:03,200
Speaker 2: like you know, kind of gives me goosebumps and just

1647
01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:06,000
Speaker 2: kind of hits that because you're like, gosh, how many

1648
01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:11,479
Speaker 2: how many people would save the time, the money, the energy,

1649
01:30:11,640 --> 01:30:15,320
Speaker 2: the pain that they go through simply because we didn't

1650
01:30:16,000 --> 01:30:18,200
Speaker 2: explain our anger. We just expressed it.

1651
01:30:18,160 --> 01:30:20,800
Speaker 1: Right, and we didn't understand it ourselves. Yeah, you know,

1652
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:25,559
Speaker 1: I joke that I don't do much mediation. I used

1653
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 1: to do more of it. Litigation is more lucrative, so

1654
01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:30,840
Speaker 1: unfortunately it's taken aback and I've gotten I'm very good

1655
01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:33,719
Speaker 1: at courtroom work, so I've sort of found a niche

1656
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:38,080
Speaker 1: that you know, works for me. But I used to

1657
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:40,720
Speaker 1: joke that mediation you're I used to say I was

1658
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:44,880
Speaker 1: an English translator because I would always do shuttle diplomacy

1659
01:30:46,120 --> 01:30:47,840
Speaker 1: and I would put them in separate rooms and I

1660
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:50,280
Speaker 1: would get them to talk to me candidly about what

1661
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:54,559
Speaker 1: they were dealing with, and they would say, like, you know,

1662
01:30:55,040 --> 01:30:56,599
Speaker 1: I don't want to bring the kids around that horror

1663
01:30:56,600 --> 01:30:58,760
Speaker 1: of a girlfriend to hesitad it. And then I'd go

1664
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:00,240
Speaker 1: in the other room and I'd say, you know, she

1665
01:31:00,320 --> 01:31:04,040
Speaker 1: has some concerns about how the children are being exposed

1666
01:31:04,080 --> 01:31:06,960
Speaker 1: to new relationships, and I'm sure when she's in a

1667
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:09,720
Speaker 1: new relationship, that's that's a concern you could share. And

1668
01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:11,400
Speaker 1: he's like, well, yeah, of course, you know we shouldn't

1669
01:31:11,400 --> 01:31:13,599
Speaker 1: both be, you know, introducing the kids to someone we're

1670
01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:16,559
Speaker 1: not serious about. I'm like, exactly, you know, you don't

1671
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:19,320
Speaker 1: want your kids to feel untethered in that. Now we're

1672
01:31:19,360 --> 01:31:22,120
Speaker 1: having a useful conversation. But if I'd let them go

1673
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:25,120
Speaker 1: at it with each other the way, the minute it

1674
01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:29,400
Speaker 1: comes out, there's this feeling of like, you know, and

1675
01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:31,800
Speaker 1: now we're positional, and now we're right at it.

1676
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:35,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's something you've heard in your office or in

1677
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:36,559
Speaker 2: court that broke your heart?

1678
01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:39,000
Speaker 1: I said, I'm sensitive, so I think a lot of

1679
01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:51,200
Speaker 1: things break my heart.

1680
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:46,840
Speaker 2: You know.

1681
01:31:46,960 --> 01:31:53,280
Speaker 1: I I've developed such a professional callous that it shocks

1682
01:31:53,320 --> 01:32:00,559
Speaker 1: me sometimes because things that should right just dur on

1683
01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:04,360
Speaker 1: my emotional radar. But I think I would be I

1684
01:32:04,400 --> 01:32:06,320
Speaker 1: think I would be much less effective at what I

1685
01:32:06,439 --> 01:32:08,680
Speaker 1: do if I let that happen, you know, Like I

1686
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:14,160
Speaker 1: I have a friend who's a pediatric oncologist, and I

1687
01:32:14,160 --> 01:32:16,080
Speaker 1: said to him once, how do you do that job

1688
01:32:16,120 --> 01:32:20,360
Speaker 1: and not just cry all day? Like you're just with

1689
01:32:20,479 --> 01:32:24,920
Speaker 1: children with cancer all day. I can't. That would be

1690
01:32:25,000 --> 01:32:28,240
Speaker 1: like one of the rings of hell for me. And

1691
01:32:28,280 --> 01:32:31,639
Speaker 1: he said it's not hard. He said, I that's I'm

1692
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:35,720
Speaker 1: here to be of service, and I will be less

1693
01:32:35,720 --> 01:32:39,120
Speaker 1: effective if I allow myself to do that. So I

1694
01:32:39,160 --> 01:32:41,160
Speaker 1: have to learn to turn that part of me off.

1695
01:32:41,200 --> 01:32:44,439
Speaker 1: I have to see this, not lose my humanity, not

1696
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:50,800
Speaker 1: lose you know. There's a saying from Risus Sardonicus. He said,

1697
01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:56,800
Speaker 1: I have resigned myself to temporary complicity with evil in

1698
01:32:56,960 --> 01:33:03,639
Speaker 1: order to attain certain specific objectives for people whose suffering

1699
01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:08,439
Speaker 1: is greater than my need to maintain moral purity. So

1700
01:33:08,520 --> 01:33:14,040
Speaker 1: I think sometimes so good, I find myself saying I

1701
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:20,280
Speaker 1: believe I represent the client, but I also represent the system,

1702
01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:22,600
Speaker 1: and I don't always believe in the client, but I

1703
01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:26,479
Speaker 1: have to believe in the system. And so the things

1704
01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:30,080
Speaker 1: that break my heart most often is when I am

1705
01:33:31,520 --> 01:33:36,720
Speaker 1: used as an instrument for cruelty to another person, or

1706
01:33:36,800 --> 01:33:42,719
Speaker 1: when people in a courtroom lose because they can't afford

1707
01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:46,800
Speaker 1: better representation. I think in our judicial system in the

1708
01:33:46,880 --> 01:33:50,800
Speaker 1: United States, unfortunately, you get as much justice as you

1709
01:33:50,840 --> 01:33:54,080
Speaker 1: can afford sometimes, and it's not supposed to be that way.

1710
01:33:54,120 --> 01:33:56,200
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be equal protection under law. It's really

1711
01:33:56,240 --> 01:33:58,040
Speaker 1: supposed to be. It's what drew me to the field

1712
01:33:58,160 --> 01:34:02,680
Speaker 1: is this sense that, like a multi millionaire and a

1713
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:07,200
Speaker 1: poor person have equal protection under law, and you're supposed

1714
01:34:07,240 --> 01:34:11,759
Speaker 1: to have vigorous representation. But this is like any other field,

1715
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:14,000
Speaker 1: like there are people that are excellent at it, and

1716
01:34:14,040 --> 01:34:16,360
Speaker 1: the people that are excellent at it very often rise

1717
01:34:16,400 --> 01:34:19,280
Speaker 1: to the top and start to only represent I jokingly

1718
01:34:19,320 --> 01:34:21,400
Speaker 1: say that, you know, I represent all kinds of people,

1719
01:34:21,479 --> 01:34:25,200
Speaker 1: gay people, straight people, black people, white people. I don't

1720
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:28,400
Speaker 1: represent poor people very often. You know, I'm eight hundred

1721
01:34:28,400 --> 01:34:33,679
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars an hour, and so people sometimes get

1722
01:34:34,120 --> 01:34:38,200
Speaker 1: less apt counsel that's less expensive, and the only thing

1723
01:34:38,240 --> 01:34:40,439
Speaker 1: more expensive than a good divorce lawyer is a bad one.

1724
01:34:40,880 --> 01:34:44,160
Speaker 1: So I think sometimes that's a very unfortunate reality of

1725
01:34:44,200 --> 01:34:46,320
Speaker 1: our system. I'd like to think that it's some chapter

1726
01:34:47,479 --> 01:34:49,840
Speaker 1: in the not too distant future, I'll be at a

1727
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:52,000
Speaker 1: place in my career where I can just like quit

1728
01:34:52,120 --> 01:34:54,839
Speaker 1: private practice and work for like a legal services agency.

1729
01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:57,479
Speaker 1: I've seen a couple of my colleagues do that, and

1730
01:34:57,560 --> 01:35:00,960
Speaker 1: I'm just cheering for them because they suddenly bring like

1731
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:05,000
Speaker 1: this massive amount of experience and talent to bear for

1732
01:35:05,760 --> 01:35:08,840
Speaker 1: to create access to justice. So I think the things

1733
01:35:08,840 --> 01:35:12,120
Speaker 1: that break my heart in courtrooms are not what you'd think,

1734
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:14,360
Speaker 1: which is the day to day testimony of listening to

1735
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:18,280
Speaker 1: the pain of people and their children. It really is

1736
01:35:18,320 --> 01:35:21,639
Speaker 1: when the system fails. There are some judges that should

1737
01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:24,360
Speaker 1: not be wearing a robe like they're supposed to stand

1738
01:35:24,400 --> 01:35:29,040
Speaker 1: for something, and some of them don't. And a bad

1739
01:35:29,120 --> 01:35:32,840
Speaker 1: lawyer can screw things up, but a bad judge can

1740
01:35:33,360 --> 01:35:36,400
Speaker 1: really screw things up in a gigantic way. They have

1741
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:40,120
Speaker 1: they're given power, and with great power comes great responsibility,

1742
01:35:41,040 --> 01:35:44,880
Speaker 1: and some of them do not deserve it. They do not,

1743
01:35:45,280 --> 01:35:49,360
Speaker 1: they are not they won a popularity contest, Like New

1744
01:35:49,439 --> 01:35:53,479
Speaker 1: York has an elected judiciary, so they won a popularity contest,

1745
01:35:54,280 --> 01:35:56,880
Speaker 1: and we're blessed. I have some judges I appear in

1746
01:35:56,880 --> 01:36:00,160
Speaker 1: front of who they are perfect for the role. They

1747
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:05,280
Speaker 1: have the temperament, they have the experience, they have the empathy.

1748
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:09,240
Speaker 1: But there are some that you know, they're drunk on

1749
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:12,439
Speaker 1: the power of it. They're mad at the world, they're

1750
01:36:12,439 --> 01:36:14,479
Speaker 1: mad at their own ex wife or ex husband, and

1751
01:36:14,479 --> 01:36:17,360
Speaker 1: they're taking it out on people in a courtroom. And

1752
01:36:17,400 --> 01:36:22,200
Speaker 1: when that happens, that's there's a powerlessness in that that

1753
01:36:22,240 --> 01:36:27,719
Speaker 1: I have a very hard time navigating because I can't

1754
01:36:27,720 --> 01:36:30,320
Speaker 1: be the outcause, like, I don't know how to fix that.

1755
01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:49,960
Speaker 2: How does someone know if they should keep trying to

1756
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:52,360
Speaker 2: fix a relationship, Boy, it's time to get a divorce.

1757
01:36:53,640 --> 01:37:00,559
Speaker 1: I mean, that's such a subjective assessment. I'm a fan of.

1758
01:37:04,240 --> 01:37:08,719
Speaker 1: You know, there's that old axiom that you know, quitters

1759
01:37:08,760 --> 01:37:12,080
Speaker 1: never win and winners never quit. But if you never

1760
01:37:12,160 --> 01:37:15,639
Speaker 1: win and you never quit, you're an idiot. So at

1761
01:37:15,640 --> 01:37:20,120
Speaker 1: some point, like at some point, I think people have

1762
01:37:20,200 --> 01:37:23,519
Speaker 1: to know it's time, you know. I was a hospice

1763
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:29,880
Speaker 1: volunteer for many years, and the biggest thing that anyone

1764
01:37:29,920 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 1: who works in hospice will tell you is that people

1765
01:37:32,040 --> 01:37:35,600
Speaker 1: call hospice too late. Like, there's so much that you

1766
01:37:35,640 --> 01:37:39,759
Speaker 1: can do in palliative care if they come to you earlier,

1767
01:37:41,080 --> 01:37:43,120
Speaker 1: and they come to you early in the process. If

1768
01:37:43,120 --> 01:37:47,080
Speaker 1: someone has a terminal diagnosis, even if they're not ready

1769
01:37:47,120 --> 01:37:50,800
Speaker 1: for hospice care yet, you can put a plan in place. Okay,

1770
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:52,880
Speaker 1: when we hit this milestone, we're going to do this.

1771
01:37:52,960 --> 01:37:55,720
Speaker 1: And when we hit this, we can't add years to

1772
01:37:55,760 --> 01:37:57,439
Speaker 1: your life, but we can add life to your years.

1773
01:37:57,479 --> 01:38:01,559
Speaker 1: You know, by the time people are in my office,

1774
01:38:02,040 --> 01:38:06,400
Speaker 1: it's so far down that road that it's I think,

1775
01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:10,400
Speaker 1: quite hard to find your way back. So I think

1776
01:38:13,040 --> 01:38:17,240
Speaker 1: when you've reached the point in a relationship where you

1777
01:38:17,400 --> 01:38:22,320
Speaker 1: have made real, good faith efforts to identify and address

1778
01:38:23,280 --> 01:38:29,840
Speaker 1: the distance and that has been wholly unsuccessful, and the

1779
01:38:29,920 --> 01:38:34,080
Speaker 1: other person is not committed, maybe not in the same

1780
01:38:34,600 --> 01:38:38,000
Speaker 1: level of commitment as you, but not committed at all,

1781
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:42,080
Speaker 1: because identifying that there is a problem as the first piece.

1782
01:38:42,320 --> 01:38:44,639
Speaker 1: So if the other person is saying no, there's no problem,

1783
01:38:45,640 --> 01:38:48,360
Speaker 1: I think there comes a point where again, sometimes happily

1784
01:38:48,400 --> 01:38:53,840
Speaker 1: ever after means happily ever after separately, and I'm a

1785
01:38:53,840 --> 01:38:57,120
Speaker 1: believer in divorce. I'm not. I mean, of course, i'm

1786
01:38:57,200 --> 01:38:59,160
Speaker 1: as a divorce lawyer, I have a self interested in

1787
01:38:59,240 --> 01:39:02,639
Speaker 1: saying that, but even in my own life. I divorced

1788
01:39:03,479 --> 01:39:07,280
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, and my ex wife is very dear

1789
01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:11,000
Speaker 1: to me. She's still a dear friend. She's been remarried

1790
01:39:11,000 --> 01:39:13,559
Speaker 1: for fifteen years, very successfully, much longer than we were

1791
01:39:13,560 --> 01:39:17,320
Speaker 1: ever married to a wonderful guy. I just got to

1792
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:19,599
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time with them at my son's wedding,

1793
01:39:20,160 --> 01:39:21,880
Speaker 1: and we had a lot of laughs and a lot

1794
01:39:21,920 --> 01:39:25,599
Speaker 1: of shared time and space together in these two boys

1795
01:39:25,600 --> 01:39:29,840
Speaker 1: who we both loved so much. And I think that

1796
01:39:29,960 --> 01:39:34,439
Speaker 1: was an example of you know, when I when my

1797
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:38,040
Speaker 1: ex wife and I twenty years ago, when we decided

1798
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:41,320
Speaker 1: we were going to divorce, we had a very difficult

1799
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:44,559
Speaker 1: and honest conversation at the kitchen table, and our kids

1800
01:39:44,560 --> 01:39:48,400
Speaker 1: were I think three and four at three and five

1801
01:39:48,439 --> 01:39:52,080
Speaker 1: at the time, and we loved them more than anything.

1802
01:39:53,040 --> 01:39:55,920
Speaker 1: And I remember she said to me after we'd had

1803
01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:59,200
Speaker 1: this very teary, very difficult conversation, we were both really honest

1804
01:39:59,240 --> 01:40:03,800
Speaker 1: with each other about ho deeply unfulfilled we felt and

1805
01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:07,840
Speaker 1: how much we loved each other, but that there's a

1806
01:40:07,840 --> 01:40:09,640
Speaker 1: lot of people that you love that you might not

1807
01:40:10,080 --> 01:40:13,880
Speaker 1: be well married too. And I remember she said to me,

1808
01:40:14,520 --> 01:40:17,160
Speaker 1: if sheer power of will could make two people love

1809
01:40:17,200 --> 01:40:20,679
Speaker 1: each other, we would love each other forever. I remember

1810
01:40:20,720 --> 01:40:26,599
Speaker 1: thinking it was so honest and so true that sometimes love,

1811
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:31,360
Speaker 1: just the feeling of love, is not enough to sustain

1812
01:40:32,439 --> 01:40:36,080
Speaker 1: this very particular kind of connection to people are going

1813
01:40:36,120 --> 01:40:39,680
Speaker 1: to have. Like my sons thankfully grew up in an

1814
01:40:39,720 --> 01:40:42,599
Speaker 1: environment of tremendous love and a deep connection to both

1815
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:47,720
Speaker 1: their mom and I. But they laughingly now say as adults, like,

1816
01:40:47,800 --> 01:40:50,760
Speaker 1: how were you and mom ever married? Like you have

1817
01:40:50,880 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 1: nothing in common? You don't like any of the same things,

1818
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:56,760
Speaker 1: like and I laugh and I say to them, yeah,

1819
01:40:56,760 --> 01:41:00,240
Speaker 1: we're We're incredibly different. Like in the best relationships, it's

1820
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:02,240
Speaker 1: like the ven diagram. There's the you, the me, and

1821
01:41:02,280 --> 01:41:04,840
Speaker 1: the Wii, and there's some overlap, you know, and us

1822
01:41:04,840 --> 01:41:06,800
Speaker 1: it just wasn't you know, but we were you know,

1823
01:41:06,840 --> 01:41:10,600
Speaker 1: we met when we were eighteen. You know, she was beautiful,

1824
01:41:11,320 --> 01:41:13,200
Speaker 1: you know, I was cool, and I had a motorcycle,

1825
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:14,760
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, like those are the things that

1826
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:17,280
Speaker 1: matter at that age, you know, we're making this decision.

1827
01:41:17,400 --> 01:41:20,800
Speaker 1: Like I often say to people, you know, if I

1828
01:41:20,960 --> 01:41:25,200
Speaker 1: said to you you can have any car you want

1829
01:41:25,520 --> 01:41:28,280
Speaker 1: when you were eighteen, what car would you have had?

1830
01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:31,280
Speaker 2: It'd have been some sports cars. Got quite like, yeah, okay.

1831
01:41:33,320 --> 01:41:36,280
Speaker 1: If then I told you, oh, that's the only car

1832
01:41:36,320 --> 01:41:38,000
Speaker 1: you're going to have for the rest of your life,

1833
01:41:38,560 --> 01:41:42,000
Speaker 1: do you think eighteen year old you would think, well, wait,

1834
01:41:42,040 --> 01:41:44,400
Speaker 1: it's not going to fit a car seat. And when

1835
01:41:44,400 --> 01:41:46,120
Speaker 1: I'm eighty, how am I going to get in and

1836
01:41:46,160 --> 01:41:50,400
Speaker 1: out of it? So that's what we're doing when we marry,

1837
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:54,559
Speaker 1: Like we're this young, Like I I wish I was

1838
01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:59,240
Speaker 1: twenty five again because I still knew everything, like I

1839
01:41:59,280 --> 01:42:01,639
Speaker 1: knew everything when I was twenty five. If you asked

1840
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:05,080
Speaker 1: me like now, I'm humble enough, like life will humble

1841
01:42:05,120 --> 01:42:07,599
Speaker 1: you enough that you go, oh yeah, Like the list

1842
01:42:07,640 --> 01:42:12,679
Speaker 1: of stuff I don't know gets bigger, yeah, not smaller, yeah,

1843
01:42:12,680 --> 01:42:16,200
Speaker 1: and my humility grows, And I think.

1844
01:42:17,200 --> 01:42:17,639
Speaker 2: So true.

1845
01:42:17,840 --> 01:42:23,400
Speaker 1: We're we marry at an age rightfully, so where we

1846
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:25,800
Speaker 1: you know, we want to have kids, maybe we want

1847
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:28,240
Speaker 1: to you know, our biological clocks are ticking. We're so

1848
01:42:28,400 --> 01:42:31,479
Speaker 1: gassed up on hormones and love and sex and everything.

1849
01:42:31,560 --> 01:42:36,320
Speaker 1: So we're making this gigantic life decision at an age

1850
01:42:36,320 --> 01:42:39,080
Speaker 1: where we still think we know everything, but our prefrontal

1851
01:42:39,080 --> 01:42:42,439
Speaker 1: cortex isn't even necessarily fully developed. So what do you

1852
01:42:42,439 --> 01:42:44,360
Speaker 1: think is going to happen there? You know, we have

1853
01:42:44,439 --> 01:42:49,799
Speaker 1: to be willing to say, you know, hey, maybe maybe

1854
01:42:50,400 --> 01:42:53,719
Speaker 1: we made the wrong decision, maybe we made the wrong choices. Again,

1855
01:42:53,760 --> 01:42:55,880
Speaker 1: I'm a fan of doing everything you can. It's just

1856
01:42:55,920 --> 01:42:58,840
Speaker 1: like hospice, do what you can, do what you can

1857
01:42:58,920 --> 01:43:02,120
Speaker 1: to sustain your life and have joy and quality of life.

1858
01:43:03,000 --> 01:43:05,240
Speaker 1: You can have a lot of impairments happened to your

1859
01:43:05,280 --> 01:43:07,360
Speaker 1: body and still have a tremendous quality of life, a

1860
01:43:07,439 --> 01:43:10,519
Speaker 1: wonderful quality of life. But when you've reached the point

1861
01:43:10,560 --> 01:43:13,960
Speaker 1: where now we've tipped to the direction where my quality

1862
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:18,080
Speaker 1: of life, my prognosis is so bad that the inevitable

1863
01:43:18,800 --> 01:43:21,639
Speaker 1: is going to happen sooner rather than later, that's when

1864
01:43:21,640 --> 01:43:24,760
Speaker 1: we should start talking about Okay, what now? Yeah, And

1865
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:26,280
Speaker 1: that's what I think this just is.

1866
01:43:26,640 --> 01:43:31,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you talking about your former partner and your two

1867
01:43:31,160 --> 01:43:33,880
Speaker 2: sons and obviously being at the wedding like it's so

1868
01:43:34,000 --> 01:43:35,960
Speaker 2: fresh for you, And I was thinking about it because

1869
01:43:35,960 --> 01:43:37,559
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people go through this. You

1870
01:43:37,640 --> 01:43:40,439
Speaker 2: probably hear a million times, and I've had so many

1871
01:43:40,439 --> 01:43:43,320
Speaker 2: friends talk about this, But is staying together for the

1872
01:43:43,400 --> 01:43:45,160
Speaker 2: kids actually hurting the kids?

1873
01:43:46,040 --> 01:43:50,840
Speaker 1: Well, this is a really important question because I think

1874
01:43:50,880 --> 01:43:56,519
Speaker 1: a lot of people stay in challenging relationships for the

1875
01:43:56,560 --> 01:43:59,720
Speaker 1: benefit of their children, and I don't think that's a

1876
01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:05,440
Speaker 1: b I think when you have children with someone, a

1877
01:44:05,439 --> 01:44:08,200
Speaker 1: a lot of difficulty comes with children. We don't like

1878
01:44:08,280 --> 01:44:10,880
Speaker 1: to talk about that in polite society, but children are

1879
01:44:10,920 --> 01:44:14,720
Speaker 1: antagonistic to marriage. We talked about it earlier in this conversation,

1880
01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:17,880
Speaker 1: like they take attention away from each other, and that,

1881
01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:19,479
Speaker 1: by the way, that's one of the great things about

1882
01:44:19,479 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 1: having children is it's not all about you anymore. And

1883
01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:26,160
Speaker 1: that's good, you know, but it's also challenging emotionally, and

1884
01:44:27,080 --> 01:44:29,759
Speaker 1: we feel guilty to say it out loud, you know. Again.

1885
01:44:29,800 --> 01:44:32,000
Speaker 1: One of the great innovations I think of our present

1886
01:44:32,040 --> 01:44:34,719
Speaker 1: time is that for a time there was a book

1887
01:44:34,760 --> 01:44:38,519
Speaker 1: called The Mask of Motherhood, where before the internet, you know,

1888
01:44:38,600 --> 01:44:41,639
Speaker 1: women were constantly how's the baby. Oh, it's great, everything's great,

1889
01:44:41,680 --> 01:44:44,640
Speaker 1: it's great, everything's great, it's great. And meanwhile they're like,

1890
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:48,599
Speaker 1: oh my god, like this is horrible. I'm exhausted. I

1891
01:44:48,640 --> 01:44:50,800
Speaker 1: love this baby, but I want to kill it sometimes

1892
01:44:51,120 --> 01:44:53,599
Speaker 1: because it won't stop crying and I feel out of control.

1893
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:57,280
Speaker 1: And now I think we have a society where I

1894
01:44:57,280 --> 01:44:59,840
Speaker 1: think there's a tremendous amount of like, you can say

1895
01:44:59,840 --> 01:45:02,640
Speaker 1: that and other women will go, yeah, it's okay. I

1896
01:45:02,640 --> 01:45:04,400
Speaker 1: felt like that too. We're supposed to feel like that.

1897
01:45:04,439 --> 01:45:07,200
Speaker 1: It's okay. Didn't mean you don't love your kid. That's beautiful,

1898
01:45:07,400 --> 01:45:11,839
Speaker 1: that's wonderful. But I think we've got to a place where,

1899
01:45:12,439 --> 01:45:16,439
Speaker 1: you know, some of those hard things to talk about

1900
01:45:16,840 --> 01:45:19,880
Speaker 1: we don't talk about in the context of relationship. And

1901
01:45:19,920 --> 01:45:24,120
Speaker 1: I think there is value in having bonds that tie

1902
01:45:24,160 --> 01:45:29,320
Speaker 1: us together, like children. But the skill set of a

1903
01:45:29,360 --> 01:45:33,120
Speaker 1: spouse and the skill set of a parent are different.

1904
01:45:33,360 --> 01:45:34,000
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

1905
01:45:34,200 --> 01:45:37,519
Speaker 1: You know, I would like to say I was not

1906
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:42,240
Speaker 1: a great husband. I'm not like I have a number

1907
01:45:42,280 --> 01:45:46,479
Speaker 1: of deficiencies, you know, like I'm impatient, I'm you know,

1908
01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:48,880
Speaker 1: some of the things that would make me a make

1909
01:45:48,920 --> 01:45:53,559
Speaker 1: a good husband. I don't possess. I'm an excellent ex husband.

1910
01:45:54,200 --> 01:45:59,640
Speaker 1: I'm reliable, I'm communicative, you know, I'm dependable, I'm very

1911
01:45:59,720 --> 01:46:02,760
Speaker 1: child focused. I'm a really good father. You know, I'm

1912
01:46:02,800 --> 01:46:07,400
Speaker 1: a really good father. So I think sometimes people come

1913
01:46:07,439 --> 01:46:09,080
Speaker 1: into my office and they say like, oh, he was

1914
01:46:09,120 --> 01:46:11,040
Speaker 1: a terrible husband and I don't want him to have

1915
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:12,680
Speaker 1: any time with the kids, And then you kind of go, well,

1916
01:46:12,680 --> 01:46:15,720
Speaker 1: wait a minute, is a bad father Because even though

1917
01:46:15,760 --> 01:46:19,960
Speaker 1: some of the skills might overlap, you know, like patience

1918
01:46:19,960 --> 01:46:22,519
Speaker 1: would be good in both of those roles, they're very

1919
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:27,040
Speaker 1: different roles. So I think identifying that is important. I

1920
01:46:27,120 --> 01:46:31,880
Speaker 1: think what the long term behavioral research on children and

1921
01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:35,840
Speaker 1: divorce says. And there's a great book called The Unexpected

1922
01:46:35,920 --> 01:46:38,439
Speaker 1: Legacy of Divorce that was the longest term study ever

1923
01:46:38,479 --> 01:46:42,120
Speaker 1: done of children of divorce, and what it essentially found

1924
01:46:42,960 --> 01:46:52,519
Speaker 1: is that although divorce and conflict, parental conflict correlate right

1925
01:46:52,760 --> 01:46:57,200
Speaker 1: makes sense, people that have a lot of conflict often divorce,

1926
01:46:57,840 --> 01:47:01,880
Speaker 1: that the parental conflict is what it's most damaging to children. Yeah,

1927
01:47:01,960 --> 01:47:08,360
Speaker 1: loyalty binds and witnessing parental conflict is harmful to children.

1928
01:47:09,400 --> 01:47:13,280
Speaker 1: It stands to reason that many children of divorce have

1929
01:47:13,479 --> 01:47:17,479
Speaker 1: grown up in part or in long in a home

1930
01:47:17,520 --> 01:47:20,280
Speaker 1: filled with conflict, because people with lots of conflict often

1931
01:47:20,320 --> 01:47:23,759
Speaker 1: get divorced. But it's not the it's not the divorce,

1932
01:47:24,320 --> 01:47:27,360
Speaker 1: it's the conflict that is, and the parental conflict that's

1933
01:47:27,360 --> 01:47:31,360
Speaker 1: so harmful. So I would certainly say, if you are

1934
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:35,120
Speaker 1: struggling in your relationship and you have children, you have

1935
01:47:35,200 --> 01:47:39,160
Speaker 1: a tremendous incentive to figure out, is there a way

1936
01:47:39,200 --> 01:47:44,360
Speaker 1: for us to reconcile this relationship temporarily or long term

1937
01:47:44,479 --> 01:47:47,680
Speaker 1: in a way that doesn't betray our core identities or ideals.

1938
01:47:47,920 --> 01:47:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1939
01:47:49,240 --> 01:47:51,760
Speaker 1: But if you are in a relationship where you are

1940
01:47:52,520 --> 01:47:59,280
Speaker 1: your children are surrounded by conflict in the ecosystem of

1941
01:47:59,320 --> 01:48:03,760
Speaker 1: your home, I don't think you're doing them any favors

1942
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:08,120
Speaker 1: gutting it out and staying together Because I again, I

1943
01:48:08,200 --> 01:48:14,000
Speaker 1: don't think the goal of marriage should be we did it.

1944
01:48:14,680 --> 01:48:17,680
Speaker 1: We did it, We made it to death, we were

1945
01:48:17,720 --> 01:48:20,360
Speaker 1: miserable for the last thirty years, but we did it.

1946
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:23,640
Speaker 1: Like It's that seems strange to me. I think the

1947
01:48:23,680 --> 01:48:28,240
Speaker 1: goal should be marriage satisfaction and are we I would

1948
01:48:28,360 --> 01:48:33,479
Speaker 1: hope that it the end of your life, you are

1949
01:48:33,520 --> 01:48:37,880
Speaker 1: still married to your wife and that what she would

1950
01:48:37,920 --> 01:48:44,760
Speaker 1: say of you is he made my life better. He

1951
01:48:44,760 --> 01:48:48,080
Speaker 1: helped me figure out who I am. He helped me

1952
01:48:48,840 --> 01:48:54,439
Speaker 1: become the most authentic version of myself. Like, what more

1953
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:58,400
Speaker 1: noble goal could there be to life than to find

1954
01:48:58,439 --> 01:49:02,960
Speaker 1: someone and love them and help them become who they are,

1955
01:49:03,840 --> 01:49:08,559
Speaker 1: you know, and help them, like help you become who

1956
01:49:08,600 --> 01:49:11,960
Speaker 1: you are and who you're meant to be. So if

1957
01:49:12,000 --> 01:49:16,839
Speaker 1: that's the goal, if the marriage isn't facilitating that result,

1958
01:49:17,400 --> 01:49:19,280
Speaker 1: they do what you can to fix it. But if

1959
01:49:19,280 --> 01:49:22,799
Speaker 1: it can't be fixed at some point, I think letting

1960
01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:25,599
Speaker 1: go is hard, but I think it's right.

1961
01:49:25,840 --> 01:49:28,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's also what you said, there's a nuance

1962
01:49:28,280 --> 01:49:31,920
Speaker 2: there because if it's the conflict that affects the kids,

1963
01:49:32,320 --> 01:49:35,080
Speaker 2: the conflict can exist when you're together and when you divorced,

1964
01:49:35,160 --> 01:49:38,559
Speaker 2: of course, So if you're still having that distance, but

1965
01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:41,280
Speaker 2: you're still talking about the other person in an unhealthy way,

1966
01:49:41,320 --> 01:49:44,240
Speaker 2: and there's constantly games with the kids.

1967
01:49:43,720 --> 01:49:46,920
Speaker 1: In every permutation of that. Yeah, And that's the stuff

1968
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:54,200
Speaker 1: that the way people unintentionally harm their children with permission

1969
01:49:54,240 --> 01:49:58,880
Speaker 1: of their own conscience, you know, and they genuinely believe

1970
01:49:58,920 --> 01:50:03,680
Speaker 1: they're like helping their children, you know. But that's the danger. Like,

1971
01:50:03,760 --> 01:50:08,840
Speaker 1: divorce is so challenging because you know, there's become an

1972
01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:11,599
Speaker 1: increasing amount of attention paid in the legal system now

1973
01:50:11,640 --> 01:50:17,280
Speaker 1: to parental estrangement. And parental estrangement can sometimes be rooted

1974
01:50:17,320 --> 01:50:21,840
Speaker 1: in something genuine. If someone's a bad parent, children eventually

1975
01:50:22,400 --> 01:50:26,240
Speaker 1: don't want to be around that person. But sometimes parental

1976
01:50:26,320 --> 01:50:30,280
Speaker 1: estrangement is caused by alienation, which is the active interference

1977
01:50:30,320 --> 01:50:33,080
Speaker 1: in the parent child relationship and the natural development of

1978
01:50:33,120 --> 01:50:37,120
Speaker 1: that bond. And sometimes it's what's called negative gatekeeping, which

1979
01:50:37,160 --> 01:50:40,920
Speaker 1: is where you could have been helpful in helping your

1980
01:50:40,960 --> 01:50:44,160
Speaker 1: co parent stay bonded to your child that instead you

1981
01:50:44,240 --> 01:50:47,080
Speaker 1: chose to do nothing. Yeah, so one is an active

1982
01:50:47,120 --> 01:50:50,000
Speaker 1: interference and the other is a passive, you know, and

1983
01:50:50,120 --> 01:50:53,439
Speaker 1: very often what you see in contested ugly custody cases,

1984
01:50:53,479 --> 01:50:56,600
Speaker 1: which I do a lot of, you see some combination

1985
01:50:56,720 --> 01:50:59,439
Speaker 1: of those things. So like dad steps on the rake,

1986
01:50:59,520 --> 01:51:01,640
Speaker 1: he does something stupid, he yells at the child the

1987
01:51:01,680 --> 01:51:03,240
Speaker 1: way he shouldn't have, He punishes them in a way

1988
01:51:03,240 --> 01:51:06,720
Speaker 1: that he shouldn't of and mom could have helped the

1989
01:51:06,880 --> 01:51:11,240
Speaker 1: kid navigate that better. But instead, because she doesn't like Dad,

1990
01:51:12,120 --> 01:51:14,840
Speaker 1: she weaponizes it. And she has the permission of her

1991
01:51:14,840 --> 01:51:18,639
Speaker 1: own conscience because she goes, I'm protecting my child. But

1992
01:51:18,880 --> 01:51:22,320
Speaker 1: it's so subtle, Like that's the dangers, you know, Like

1993
01:51:22,720 --> 01:51:26,519
Speaker 1: when it takes a rare kind of crazy person to

1994
01:51:26,680 --> 01:51:31,519
Speaker 1: say your dad is a bad person and you shouldn't

1995
01:51:31,600 --> 01:51:37,639
Speaker 1: love him, but it takes nothing to do Hello, here,

1996
01:51:37,640 --> 01:51:40,719
Speaker 1: it's your dad. Yeah, I just said dad's a bad person.

1997
01:51:40,760 --> 01:51:42,960
Speaker 1: I have to say it out loud. You know. It's

1998
01:51:43,000 --> 01:51:46,240
Speaker 1: the difference between Oh, how is how is your weekend

1999
01:51:46,280 --> 01:51:47,559
Speaker 1: with dad? What'd you guys do?

2000
01:51:48,080 --> 01:51:48,240
Speaker 2: Oh?

2001
01:51:48,240 --> 01:51:49,840
Speaker 1: We went to the park and we, you know, met

2002
01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:53,120
Speaker 1: his new friend Cindy. Oh yeah, oh that's nice. Would

2003
01:51:53,160 --> 01:51:55,240
Speaker 1: you got would would you have to eat? Oh? We've

2004
01:51:55,240 --> 01:51:58,320
Speaker 1: got pizza da. Oh that's great. What was Cindy like?

2005
01:51:58,400 --> 01:52:01,160
Speaker 1: Oh she's really nice. She's got pretty blonde hair. And

2006
01:52:01,200 --> 01:52:03,400
Speaker 1: she likes to ride bicycles. Oh that's so. You like

2007
01:52:03,439 --> 01:52:06,040
Speaker 1: to ride bicycles too, So that's nice. I'm not surprised

2008
01:52:06,040 --> 01:52:08,240
Speaker 1: that dad likes her, because Dad likes bicycles too. You know.

2009
01:52:08,360 --> 01:52:10,479
Speaker 1: All right, go upstairs, you know you at school tomorrow morning.

2010
01:52:10,520 --> 01:52:14,720
Speaker 1: Let's figure out what we're gonna do. And I'm so

2011
01:52:14,840 --> 01:52:17,519
Speaker 1: glad you're back. I missed you so much when you

2012
01:52:17,560 --> 01:52:19,360
Speaker 1: were with dad. Are you okay?

2013
01:52:19,880 --> 01:52:20,120
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2014
01:52:20,160 --> 01:52:23,240
Speaker 1: You okay? Did everything go okay? Are you all right? Yeah?

2015
01:52:23,320 --> 01:52:25,240
Speaker 1: What'd you do? You went to you went to the park.

2016
01:52:25,640 --> 01:52:27,800
Speaker 1: You went to the What it's been so cold out?

2017
01:52:27,800 --> 01:52:29,360
Speaker 1: Why did you go to the all? You went? Did

2018
01:52:29,400 --> 01:52:33,360
Speaker 1: you just? You and Dad went Cindy? Who who's Cindy?

2019
01:52:33,880 --> 01:52:38,000
Speaker 1: Who's Cindy Dad's friend? Does you mean Dad's girlfriend? Does

2020
01:52:38,080 --> 01:52:40,360
Speaker 1: Dad have a girlfriend now? And he's not selling anyone

2021
01:52:40,360 --> 01:52:41,320
Speaker 1: that he has a girlfriend?

2022
01:52:42,200 --> 01:52:42,400
Speaker 2: You know?

2023
01:52:43,040 --> 01:52:46,800
Speaker 1: You know, well, you know what, go upstairs and uh,

2024
01:52:47,040 --> 01:52:50,400
Speaker 1: you know, get whatever you do. Like I just told

2025
01:52:50,439 --> 01:52:53,440
Speaker 1: this kid so much. And the part of the judicial

2026
01:52:53,479 --> 01:52:55,840
Speaker 1: system because as a lawyer, it doesn't matter what I know,

2027
01:52:55,880 --> 01:52:58,320
Speaker 1: it matters what I can prove. So you know what

2028
01:52:58,360 --> 01:53:00,920
Speaker 1: the judicial system solution to that is, We'll assign a

2029
01:53:01,000 --> 01:53:04,240
Speaker 1: lawyer to the kid, and the lawyer is going to

2030
01:53:04,280 --> 01:53:06,599
Speaker 1: sit down with the kid and say, does mom ever

2031
01:53:06,640 --> 01:53:10,240
Speaker 1: say bad things about Dad? And guess what the answer is, No,

2032
01:53:11,120 --> 01:53:13,080
Speaker 1: I didn't say what did she say that was bad

2033
01:53:13,320 --> 01:53:16,120
Speaker 1: about dad? She didn't say anything bad about dad. She

2034
01:53:16,160 --> 01:53:18,559
Speaker 1: asked what did you have to eat? I missed you.

2035
01:53:18,760 --> 01:53:22,000
Speaker 1: It's nice that you're home. Like, who's Cindy? I was

2036
01:53:22,040 --> 01:53:25,080
Speaker 1: asking a question. He brought her? This person around our child.

2037
01:53:25,160 --> 01:53:26,920
Speaker 1: I don't know who they are, you know, so I

2038
01:53:27,000 --> 01:53:28,680
Speaker 1: just wanted to ask my oh, oh, who is she?

2039
01:53:29,360 --> 01:53:33,360
Speaker 1: But meanwhile, no, you sent a whole message to that kid.

2040
01:53:33,560 --> 01:53:36,920
Speaker 1: And by the way, be a grown up, like love

2041
01:53:36,960 --> 01:53:40,240
Speaker 1: your kid more than you hate your ex, because all

2042
01:53:40,280 --> 01:53:42,920
Speaker 1: you have to do in that situation is do what

2043
01:53:42,960 --> 01:53:47,880
Speaker 1: you do as an adult, which is pretend. Like I

2044
01:53:47,960 --> 01:53:50,800
Speaker 1: remember my son, Noah was now twenty eight when I

2045
01:53:50,880 --> 01:53:53,639
Speaker 1: just got married. I remember him when he was about

2046
01:53:53,920 --> 01:53:57,680
Speaker 1: four years old having pneumonia and he had like one

2047
01:53:57,760 --> 01:54:02,360
Speaker 1: hundred and four fever and he was burning up and

2048
01:54:02,400 --> 01:54:05,720
Speaker 1: he was in my lap, and I remember like it

2049
01:54:05,760 --> 01:54:10,160
Speaker 1: was yesterday. I remember the doctor said to us because

2050
01:54:10,160 --> 01:54:12,640
Speaker 1: we called him panicked, and the doctor said, okay, if

2051
01:54:12,680 --> 01:54:14,000
Speaker 1: it goes to one hundred and five, you got get

2052
01:54:14,040 --> 01:54:17,680
Speaker 1: him to the emergency room. And I remember him like

2053
01:54:18,000 --> 01:54:22,280
Speaker 1: so like it's a visceral memory, so sick, and I

2054
01:54:22,320 --> 01:54:28,160
Speaker 1: remember being like, it's okay, it's okay, buddy, it's okay,

2055
01:54:28,200 --> 01:54:31,760
Speaker 1: you're okay, you're okay, it's okay, you're okay. No, you're fine,

2056
01:54:31,760 --> 01:54:33,720
Speaker 1: You're you're just sick. Right now, It's gonna be okay.

2057
01:54:33,720 --> 01:54:36,080
Speaker 1: Don't worry about it's okay. Everything's going to be fine,

2058
01:54:36,680 --> 01:54:39,960
Speaker 1: because that's what you do like, that's what you do.

2059
01:54:40,120 --> 01:54:43,040
Speaker 1: He did not need me to do what. I'm even

2060
01:54:43,120 --> 01:54:45,880
Speaker 1: recalling this memory twenty four years later, and he's fine,

2061
01:54:45,880 --> 01:54:49,800
Speaker 1: he's on his honeymoon, he's fine. Like, but I'm literally

2062
01:54:49,880 --> 01:54:52,320
Speaker 1: ready to cry thinking about it, because I remember being

2063
01:54:53,040 --> 01:54:56,440
Speaker 1: so terrified. I'd never been that scared in my life.

2064
01:54:56,480 --> 01:54:59,120
Speaker 1: I loved this thing more than I'd ever loved anything,

2065
01:54:59,120 --> 01:55:02,000
Speaker 1: and I thought, oh my god, he's gonna die. But

2066
01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:04,560
Speaker 1: what he needed me to do in that moment is

2067
01:55:04,640 --> 01:55:09,880
Speaker 1: be strong and lie. He needed that from me, And

2068
01:55:09,960 --> 01:55:14,240
Speaker 1: so do that. Just do that. I don't care if

2069
01:55:14,280 --> 01:55:18,240
Speaker 1: you're upset the dad's dating Cindy, and the dad really

2070
01:55:18,240 --> 01:55:19,840
Speaker 1: stepped on the rake and should have told you, Hey,

2071
01:55:19,840 --> 01:55:22,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna introduce our kid to this girl i've been seeing,

2072
01:55:23,040 --> 01:55:25,840
Speaker 1: and you guys should have had a conversation where you say, like, Hey,

2073
01:55:25,920 --> 01:55:27,840
Speaker 1: is this someone you're serious about before you take them

2074
01:55:27,840 --> 01:55:29,400
Speaker 1: around our kid, and what are you going to tell

2075
01:55:29,440 --> 01:55:31,200
Speaker 1: the kid? And give me a little info on this

2076
01:55:31,240 --> 01:55:33,040
Speaker 1: so we can figure out how to send the right

2077
01:55:33,080 --> 01:55:37,600
Speaker 1: message together. You know, that's not the place to have

2078
01:55:37,640 --> 01:55:39,760
Speaker 1: that with the kid. You have to have that with

2079
01:55:39,800 --> 01:55:43,120
Speaker 1: your co parent. But again, we don't teach people. We

2080
01:55:43,120 --> 01:55:46,000
Speaker 1: don't teach people how to do relationships, and we don't

2081
01:55:46,000 --> 01:55:48,840
Speaker 1: teach him how to do when relationships end, And with

2082
01:55:48,960 --> 01:55:52,480
Speaker 1: fifty percent or more of marriages ending in divorce, we

2083
01:55:52,560 --> 01:55:55,400
Speaker 1: could do better at teaching people how to be good

2084
01:55:55,480 --> 01:55:58,720
Speaker 1: ex husbands and good ex wives how to be good

2085
01:55:58,760 --> 01:56:01,800
Speaker 1: co parents after divorce. But nobody wants to buy that book.

2086
01:56:02,520 --> 01:56:04,360
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to buy that book because they all think

2087
01:56:04,360 --> 01:56:07,080
Speaker 1: they're grad at it. They all think they're great at it.

2088
01:56:07,120 --> 01:56:10,480
Speaker 1: And I have some clients that are abysmally bad at it,

2089
01:56:10,520 --> 01:56:13,080
Speaker 1: and a lot of what I have to do is

2090
01:56:13,120 --> 01:56:16,320
Speaker 1: give them credit where credit's not due. I have to

2091
01:56:16,320 --> 01:56:18,800
Speaker 1: say to them, like, right, but of course you would

2092
01:56:18,840 --> 01:56:20,680
Speaker 1: never do X, Y and Z, because I know you,

2093
01:56:20,760 --> 01:56:22,000
Speaker 1: and I know you're a good person. I know you

2094
01:56:22,040 --> 01:56:24,600
Speaker 1: love your kids, you know. So I have to play

2095
01:56:24,640 --> 01:56:27,960
Speaker 1: little mind games with them and say to them all

2096
01:56:28,000 --> 01:56:30,320
Speaker 1: the time, like you know, they'll say, well, I'm gonna

2097
01:56:30,320 --> 01:56:32,360
Speaker 1: introduce you know, the kids to my girlfriend this weekend.

2098
01:56:32,400 --> 01:56:34,160
Speaker 1: You know, do I have to tell her? I'll go,

2099
01:56:34,200 --> 01:56:35,760
Speaker 1: Do you have to? Now? You don't have to, but

2100
01:56:35,800 --> 01:56:38,320
Speaker 1: of course you should. Of course you will, like you're

2101
01:56:38,800 --> 01:56:40,720
Speaker 1: wouldn't you want to know if she was gonna Yeah,

2102
01:56:40,680 --> 01:56:43,720
Speaker 1: and obviously this person you're introducing them to you you know,

2103
01:56:44,000 --> 01:56:45,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're not doing that with someone that you

2104
01:56:45,760 --> 01:56:47,800
Speaker 1: like met on Tinder and you're you know, gonna know

2105
01:56:47,880 --> 01:56:50,040
Speaker 1: for two weeks like this, I'm sure this is a

2106
01:56:50,080 --> 01:56:52,400
Speaker 1: serious relationship. And they're like, well, yeah, it's sort of serious.

2107
01:56:52,400 --> 01:56:53,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, because if it's not, you know, you might

2108
01:56:54,280 --> 01:56:56,200
Speaker 1: obviously you might want to wait a little bit, you know,

2109
01:56:56,240 --> 01:56:58,360
Speaker 1: And like, I have to be in the position where

2110
01:56:58,360 --> 01:57:00,360
Speaker 1: I'm educating them as.

2111
01:57:00,200 --> 01:57:01,400
Speaker 2: To without educating them.

2112
01:57:01,480 --> 01:57:03,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, You've got to kind of be that because I'm

2113
01:57:03,200 --> 01:57:05,640
Speaker 1: their advocate. Yeah, yah, absolutely, I'm their ravocant. But the

2114
01:57:05,680 --> 01:57:07,960
Speaker 1: truth of my profession and the best of us that

2115
01:57:08,080 --> 01:57:09,880
Speaker 1: do this because i could say it about my colleagues,

2116
01:57:09,880 --> 01:57:12,640
Speaker 1: although I've never been their client in the courtroom, at

2117
01:57:12,640 --> 01:57:16,280
Speaker 1: the negotiating table, I am a vociferous advocate. I'm a weapon,

2118
01:57:16,440 --> 01:57:19,839
Speaker 1: you know, I'll advocate for whatever crazy position is necessary

2119
01:57:19,920 --> 01:57:24,600
Speaker 1: in that situation. Behind closed doors, I'm this like, I'm

2120
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:27,400
Speaker 1: very blunt with my clients. I'm very candid with them

2121
01:57:27,400 --> 01:57:30,920
Speaker 1: because they don't need me to tell them what they

2122
01:57:30,920 --> 01:57:32,560
Speaker 1: want to hear. They need me to tell them what

2123
01:57:32,600 --> 01:57:35,560
Speaker 1: they need to hear. So I'm very, very honest with

2124
01:57:35,640 --> 01:57:38,360
Speaker 1: my clients behind closed doors, I will tell them, you're

2125
01:57:38,360 --> 01:57:40,680
Speaker 1: going through a process where you could spend fifty thousand

2126
01:57:40,680 --> 01:57:44,600
Speaker 1: dollars arguing over a sixty thousand dollars bank account, and

2127
01:57:44,640 --> 01:57:48,160
Speaker 1: if you win, you didn't win sixty thousand dollars, you

2128
01:57:48,200 --> 01:57:51,600
Speaker 1: won ten thousand dollars, and if you lose, you lost

2129
01:57:51,840 --> 01:57:55,920
Speaker 1: one hundred and ten thousand dollars. Like so divorce is

2130
01:57:56,080 --> 01:57:58,360
Speaker 1: like that. I mean I had a case, a multi

2131
01:57:59,000 --> 01:58:01,960
Speaker 1: million dollar I were at a state probably worth thirty

2132
01:58:02,000 --> 01:58:05,440
Speaker 1: forty million dollars. The settlement fell apart because of a

2133
01:58:05,480 --> 01:58:11,080
Speaker 1: toaster oven, a forty eight dollars toaster oven, because it

2134
01:58:11,120 --> 01:58:12,880
Speaker 1: was the one issue they couldn't agree on as division

2135
01:58:12,880 --> 01:58:15,560
Speaker 1: of personal property. And I just remember being in the

2136
01:58:15,640 --> 01:58:18,240
Speaker 1: room and thinking, I could on my phone right now

2137
01:58:18,280 --> 01:58:21,640
Speaker 1: with prime delivery, have every person in this room get

2138
01:58:21,680 --> 01:58:26,680
Speaker 1: one of this toaster oven tomorrow, and they're going to

2139
01:58:26,720 --> 01:58:28,800
Speaker 1: blow this thing up over this because it wasn't about

2140
01:58:28,800 --> 01:58:31,360
Speaker 1: the toaster. They did blow they did blow it up. Yeah, yeah,

2141
01:58:31,400 --> 01:58:33,960
Speaker 1: And listen was great for the lawyers. Great for the lawyers.

2142
01:58:33,960 --> 01:58:36,360
Speaker 1: We get paid to fight when your lawyer is telling

2143
01:58:36,440 --> 01:58:41,600
Speaker 1: you the settlement's good. Let's take the settlement. I'm acting

2144
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:44,480
Speaker 1: against my interests. I get paid for the fight like

2145
01:58:44,520 --> 01:58:47,560
Speaker 1: you don't. And I manipulate people's emotional state for a living,

2146
01:58:48,400 --> 01:58:50,440
Speaker 1: like I make a judge feel sympathetic to my client

2147
01:58:50,480 --> 01:58:52,400
Speaker 1: antagonistic to the other side, and make the other side

2148
01:58:52,400 --> 01:58:55,320
Speaker 1: feel scared or vulnerable. I make my client feel safe,

2149
01:58:55,320 --> 01:58:57,960
Speaker 1: like I manipulate people's emotional state for a living. That's

2150
01:58:58,000 --> 01:59:01,320
Speaker 1: the job you. You don't think I couldn't use that

2151
01:59:01,400 --> 01:59:04,080
Speaker 1: to gas my client up and feel terrified so that

2152
01:59:04,080 --> 01:59:06,480
Speaker 1: they need me to do more work. Of course I could,

2153
01:59:06,600 --> 01:59:08,600
Speaker 1: of course I could. I could turn that right on,

2154
01:59:08,760 --> 01:59:11,320
Speaker 1: and I could well, you know, listen, it's all fine now,

2155
01:59:11,400 --> 01:59:13,720
Speaker 1: but what if forces are aligning against you. I could

2156
01:59:13,760 --> 01:59:15,680
Speaker 1: scare the crap out of these people and get them

2157
01:59:15,720 --> 01:59:18,320
Speaker 1: to give me hundreds of thousands of dollars. The way

2158
01:59:18,400 --> 01:59:20,840
Speaker 1: you build a reputation, and this is a business where

2159
01:59:20,840 --> 01:59:23,960
Speaker 1: you live and die by your reputation, is by not

2160
01:59:24,080 --> 01:59:27,000
Speaker 1: doing that. Yeah if by being really honest with your clients,

2161
01:59:27,040 --> 01:59:29,480
Speaker 1: by being really blunt with your clients. And that's what

2162
01:59:29,560 --> 01:59:31,280
Speaker 1: I try every single day to wake up and do

2163
01:59:31,440 --> 01:59:33,879
Speaker 1: and all of the best of my colleagues. I suspect

2164
01:59:33,920 --> 01:59:34,720
Speaker 1: that that's what they do.

2165
01:59:34,880 --> 01:59:38,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Yeah. It's painful though, because it all comes

2166
01:59:38,520 --> 01:59:40,840
Speaker 2: down back to what we've been talking about this whole time,

2167
01:59:40,880 --> 01:59:45,920
Speaker 2: which is this personal growth and ego of not in

2168
01:59:46,280 --> 01:59:48,840
Speaker 2: every whether it's you being mad at your partner when

2169
01:59:48,840 --> 01:59:51,880
Speaker 2: you're together, whether it's you being on the honeymoon or dating,

2170
01:59:51,920 --> 01:59:55,440
Speaker 2: whether it's you thinking about divorce, it's always your ego

2171
01:59:55,960 --> 02:00:00,879
Speaker 2: and your control and your desire for power that's constantly

2172
02:00:00,960 --> 02:00:03,360
Speaker 2: getting in the way, even to the toaster of then,

2173
02:00:04,000 --> 02:00:06,200
Speaker 2: which is that final straw of no, I want to

2174
02:00:06,240 --> 02:00:09,160
Speaker 2: have the final say and they should feel the rat

2175
02:00:09,200 --> 02:00:11,520
Speaker 2: and not me. And it's it's that growth of like,

2176
02:00:11,640 --> 02:00:14,800
Speaker 2: when are those insecurities not going to be mine anymore?

2177
02:00:14,800 --> 02:00:16,840
Speaker 2: And one of those you know, because hopefully I'm getting

2178
02:00:16,840 --> 02:00:18,680
Speaker 2: divorced and that I can move on from that. But

2179
02:00:18,760 --> 02:00:21,000
Speaker 2: if I'm still upset that the person's with Cindy, like

2180
02:00:21,600 --> 02:00:24,400
Speaker 2: that's just pulling me. I'm still controlled by that.

2181
02:00:24,440 --> 02:00:27,360
Speaker 1: By the way, it's perfectly okay to feel jealous, it's

2182
02:00:29,000 --> 02:00:32,600
Speaker 1: but I totally agree. I think all of these problems,

2183
02:00:32,600 --> 02:00:34,520
Speaker 1: whether they're in the context of divorce or in the

2184
02:00:34,520 --> 02:00:38,760
Speaker 1: context of navigating a functional relationship that's having challenges, or

2185
02:00:38,800 --> 02:00:42,800
Speaker 1: employer employee relationships. You're right, it's all ego based things.

2186
02:00:43,600 --> 02:00:46,720
Speaker 1: Neil Postman was one of my mentors at NYU, a beautiful,

2187
02:00:46,720 --> 02:00:51,200
Speaker 1: prolific writer about culture. He used to say that technology

2188
02:00:51,240 --> 02:00:56,760
Speaker 1: offers us real solutions to imaginary problems and imaginary solutions

2189
02:00:56,800 --> 02:01:03,600
Speaker 1: to real problems. And I think marriage is an imaginary

2190
02:01:03,680 --> 02:01:07,760
Speaker 1: solution to a real problem. The real problem is we're alone.

2191
02:01:08,280 --> 02:01:14,320
Speaker 1: You feel terribly alone. This world is easier to navigate

2192
02:01:14,360 --> 02:01:17,720
Speaker 1: with someone. You can't learn everything you need to know

2193
02:01:17,760 --> 02:01:21,040
Speaker 1: about yourself from yourself. You need someone who sees your

2194
02:01:21,040 --> 02:01:26,200
Speaker 1: blind spots. There's nothing more wonderful than feeling loved, other

2195
02:01:26,280 --> 02:01:30,600
Speaker 1: than perhaps giving love and having someone feel your love

2196
02:01:30,760 --> 02:01:37,840
Speaker 1: who you love. So these are all real problems. Yeah,

2197
02:01:37,880 --> 02:01:39,720
Speaker 1: But the idea that I'm going to get a piece

2198
02:01:39,760 --> 02:01:43,320
Speaker 1: of jewelry on my finger and I've got that locked

2199
02:01:43,360 --> 02:01:47,240
Speaker 1: down now and I'm going to not feel this, that's Look.

2200
02:01:47,400 --> 02:01:51,160
Speaker 1: I represent some of the wealthiest people in the United States.

2201
02:01:51,760 --> 02:01:56,480
Speaker 1: I am in the finance capital arguably of the world.

2202
02:01:57,400 --> 02:02:00,240
Speaker 1: Some of my clients are worth billions of dollars. My

2203
02:02:00,280 --> 02:02:04,520
Speaker 1: wealthiest client is probably worth about eight billion dollars. He

2204
02:02:04,720 --> 02:02:08,400
Speaker 1: is as bad at this as anyone. You cannot buy

2205
02:02:08,480 --> 02:02:11,880
Speaker 1: your way into it, like you can't. You know, There's

2206
02:02:11,920 --> 02:02:16,000
Speaker 1: there's no amount of money that you can spend to

2207
02:02:16,080 --> 02:02:19,680
Speaker 1: fix disconnection between you and your partner. There's no birken

2208
02:02:19,800 --> 02:02:22,440
Speaker 1: bag you can buy them. There's nothing you can do

2209
02:02:23,320 --> 02:02:27,640
Speaker 1: that will replace some of these fundamental things and the

2210
02:02:27,720 --> 02:02:31,800
Speaker 1: struggles like money. You know, neither you nor I grew

2211
02:02:31,880 --> 02:02:36,520
Speaker 1: up with money, and I think when you grow up

2212
02:02:36,520 --> 02:02:39,200
Speaker 1: without money, I don't know if this was your experience,

2213
02:02:39,280 --> 02:02:43,320
Speaker 1: it certainly was mine. Money came to symbolize everything I

2214
02:02:43,360 --> 02:02:47,440
Speaker 1: didn't have, Like if I have money, I'll feel safe.

2215
02:02:47,760 --> 02:02:51,280
Speaker 1: If I have money, I'll feel valuable and worthy. If

2216
02:02:51,320 --> 02:02:54,600
Speaker 1: I have money, I'll feel secure. And then you get

2217
02:02:54,640 --> 02:02:58,520
Speaker 1: money and you just have money, like you don't, you

2218
02:02:58,560 --> 02:03:01,400
Speaker 1: still feel unsafe, You still feel are some things easier.

2219
02:03:01,440 --> 02:03:04,040
Speaker 1: Of course, of course money's important, and it does make

2220
02:03:04,080 --> 02:03:06,400
Speaker 1: some things easier, and it does give some modicum of security,

2221
02:03:06,800 --> 02:03:10,640
Speaker 1: but from the fundamental challenges of life, like these real challenges.

2222
02:03:10,840 --> 02:03:15,000
Speaker 1: So those are real problems. I think marriage again, asking

2223
02:03:15,040 --> 02:03:17,320
Speaker 1: the question what is the problem to which marriage is

2224
02:03:17,360 --> 02:03:17,800
Speaker 1: a solution?

2225
02:03:18,080 --> 02:03:22,400
Speaker 2: Is the key who falls for divorce more men or women.

2226
02:03:22,360 --> 02:03:26,000
Speaker 1: Women by a significant majority. It's over seventy percent of

2227
02:03:26,040 --> 02:03:29,600
Speaker 1: divorces are accepted by women. Unfortunately, though, that's a statistic

2228
02:03:29,640 --> 02:03:31,960
Speaker 1: that gets unfairly weaponized quite often.

2229
02:03:32,280 --> 02:03:34,680
Speaker 2: How should we process it? What does it tell us?

2230
02:03:34,880 --> 02:03:40,240
Speaker 1: So the popular antagonism in the what do you want

2231
02:03:40,240 --> 02:03:44,720
Speaker 1: to call it, the mana sphere, or in misogynist spaces,

2232
02:03:44,760 --> 02:03:48,400
Speaker 1: whatever you might want to call it, in spaces that

2233
02:03:48,440 --> 02:03:53,080
Speaker 1: are there to defend men's perspective, is that women are

2234
02:03:53,120 --> 02:03:57,080
Speaker 1: somehow coming into the casino of marriage, amassing a lot

2235
02:03:57,080 --> 02:03:59,560
Speaker 1: of winnings and then cashing out. And that's why the

2236
02:04:00,160 --> 02:04:03,320
Speaker 1: number of women is in the seventy percent in the

2237
02:04:03,360 --> 02:04:06,480
Speaker 1: commencement of divorce actions. What I have found in my

2238
02:04:06,560 --> 02:04:09,800
Speaker 1: own practice is that that although that is certainly the case,

2239
02:04:09,840 --> 02:04:17,800
Speaker 1: sometimes that more often than not, it is that men

2240
02:04:19,400 --> 02:04:22,880
Speaker 1: more often than women go out for milk and never

2241
02:04:22,960 --> 02:04:26,680
Speaker 1: come back, or just come home one day and say

2242
02:04:26,720 --> 02:04:30,320
Speaker 1: I'm leaving. Part of that has to do with children.

2243
02:04:31,560 --> 02:04:34,400
Speaker 1: I think we know you can be a Bella Abzig

2244
02:04:34,440 --> 02:04:36,400
Speaker 1: feminist if you'd like to be, and I think you

2245
02:04:36,440 --> 02:04:42,280
Speaker 1: would concede that if you met me a man and said, Jim,

2246
02:04:42,320 --> 02:04:45,200
Speaker 1: tell me about yourself, And I said, well, I'm divorced.

2247
02:04:45,320 --> 02:04:48,680
Speaker 1: I'm a lawyer. I see my children every other weekend

2248
02:04:48,680 --> 02:04:50,560
Speaker 1: and once a week for dinner. They live with their mom.

2249
02:04:52,040 --> 02:04:55,040
Speaker 1: This would in almost no way shape your opinion of

2250
02:04:55,080 --> 02:04:59,320
Speaker 1: me as a parent. Whereas if I was a woman

2251
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:03,240
Speaker 1: and I said I'm divorced. The children live with their

2252
02:05:03,280 --> 02:05:05,800
Speaker 1: father and I see them every other weekend and once

2253
02:05:05,800 --> 02:05:08,240
Speaker 1: a week for dinner, there's some part of you that

2254
02:05:08,280 --> 02:05:12,120
Speaker 1: would go, yeah, wrong with her drug issue? Or like

2255
02:05:12,280 --> 02:05:14,160
Speaker 1: is there like you know, substance you or is some

2256
02:05:14,200 --> 02:05:18,919
Speaker 1: mental health like what? So why? Because the overwhelming majority

2257
02:05:19,080 --> 02:05:23,680
Speaker 1: still of primary care of children is on women. So

2258
02:05:23,920 --> 02:05:27,800
Speaker 1: I think that the reason why women are more often

2259
02:05:27,840 --> 02:05:31,320
Speaker 1: the plaintiff in the divorce action is that we have

2260
02:05:31,360 --> 02:05:34,320
Speaker 1: created a society where for a man to walk away

2261
02:05:35,360 --> 02:05:41,480
Speaker 1: say bye, I'm out, it's easier. And so when that happens,

2262
02:05:41,600 --> 02:05:44,640
Speaker 1: and it happens often, I have women who come into

2263
02:05:44,640 --> 02:05:49,760
Speaker 1: my office and say, what do I do? He left,

2264
02:05:50,000 --> 02:05:53,640
Speaker 1: mortgage hasn't been paid, I don't know, like, how am

2265
02:05:53,680 --> 02:05:56,240
Speaker 1: I going to do X, Y and Z? And I say, okay,

2266
02:05:56,520 --> 02:05:59,240
Speaker 1: we have to file a divorce action, and they go wait, no,

2267
02:05:59,440 --> 02:06:01,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to file a divorce action. I'm not

2268
02:06:01,800 --> 02:06:04,440
Speaker 1: the one who wants a divorce he is. I want

2269
02:06:04,520 --> 02:06:07,200
Speaker 1: him to come back and for everything to be okay, okay,

2270
02:06:07,320 --> 02:06:11,800
Speaker 1: but he's not coming back, and everything's not okay. But

2271
02:06:11,880 --> 02:06:14,440
Speaker 1: what you need is the mortgage to be paid and

2272
02:06:14,480 --> 02:06:16,600
Speaker 1: an order that gives you temporary child support. And the

2273
02:06:16,600 --> 02:06:18,000
Speaker 1: only way I can do that is to get a

2274
02:06:18,080 --> 02:06:19,480
Speaker 1: judge a sign. And the only way I can get

2275
02:06:19,480 --> 02:06:21,480
Speaker 1: a judge a sign is to file a divorce action.

2276
02:06:22,360 --> 02:06:24,760
Speaker 1: So then what happens is we filed the divorce action

2277
02:06:25,200 --> 02:06:30,120
Speaker 1: and then nine times out of ten the guy who

2278
02:06:30,120 --> 02:06:33,360
Speaker 1: went out for milk and never came back. I can't

2279
02:06:33,360 --> 02:06:36,800
Speaker 1: believe you filed for divorce. She well, she's the one

2280
02:06:36,800 --> 02:06:39,600
Speaker 1: who filed for divorce, and you kind of go okay, no,

2281
02:06:40,320 --> 02:06:43,520
Speaker 1: like you killed it. She buried it. I get it,

2282
02:06:44,040 --> 02:06:46,480
Speaker 1: but like you killed it, Like what are you talking about?

2283
02:06:46,560 --> 02:06:48,280
Speaker 1: You know? And by the way, I'm not suggesting you

2284
02:06:48,320 --> 02:06:50,800
Speaker 1: should have stayed. There's lots of good reasons why a

2285
02:06:50,800 --> 02:06:55,880
Speaker 1: marriage might end, but just leaving and not confronting again

2286
02:06:55,960 --> 02:06:59,040
Speaker 1: it's the same problem, right is Is it surprising that

2287
02:06:59,160 --> 02:07:02,400
Speaker 1: in a marriage where people were afraid to have difficult

2288
02:07:02,480 --> 02:07:06,440
Speaker 1: conversations that they might essentially do the equivalent of ghosting,

2289
02:07:06,600 --> 02:07:08,760
Speaker 1: like I'm just going to leave, I'm just out, you know.

2290
02:07:08,880 --> 02:07:13,360
Speaker 1: So that's where that statistic, I think is, it's abused

2291
02:07:14,080 --> 02:07:17,800
Speaker 1: because if only again, if only, if only, like I,

2292
02:07:17,880 --> 02:07:20,080
Speaker 1: in some ways wish we lived in a world like

2293
02:07:20,120 --> 02:07:23,520
Speaker 1: Sultsanitzen said, where where if only there were just evil

2294
02:07:23,600 --> 02:07:26,400
Speaker 1: people and we could just segregate them from the rest

2295
02:07:26,400 --> 02:07:28,880
Speaker 1: of us and live our lives in peace. It's not

2296
02:07:28,960 --> 02:07:30,920
Speaker 1: how it works. The line of good and evil runs

2297
02:07:31,040 --> 02:07:34,680
Speaker 1: right through the human heart, and so there is not

2298
02:07:34,800 --> 02:07:37,600
Speaker 1: a simple answer that, oh, yes, women are just gold

2299
02:07:37,640 --> 02:07:40,040
Speaker 1: diggers and they're filing for divorce because they're cashing their

2300
02:07:40,080 --> 02:07:43,040
Speaker 1: chips out. I have seen many many women commence divorce

2301
02:07:43,080 --> 02:07:46,360
Speaker 1: actions where they were taking a gigantic economic hit. I

2302
02:07:46,360 --> 02:07:49,200
Speaker 1: have a client who recently we filed for divorce, knowing

2303
02:07:49,240 --> 02:07:52,160
Speaker 1: that under the prenup what she's going to get, she's

2304
02:07:52,240 --> 02:07:55,560
Speaker 1: no longer going to have private jets. No, she is

2305
02:07:55,600 --> 02:07:58,880
Speaker 1: going to take a significant cut in her lifestyle. But

2306
02:07:59,000 --> 02:08:01,080
Speaker 1: she's like, yeah, but I I need to be free

2307
02:08:01,080 --> 02:08:05,280
Speaker 1: of this relationship, you know. And so to suggest that

2308
02:08:05,480 --> 02:08:09,480
Speaker 1: that statistic proves this other thing I think is very

2309
02:08:09,520 --> 02:08:27,480
Speaker 1: self interested by the people that are positing that theory.

2310
02:08:29,800 --> 02:08:32,200
Speaker 2: Who suffers more from divorce, men or women?

2311
02:08:34,920 --> 02:08:39,040
Speaker 1: I think the world is cruel to both in different ways.

2312
02:08:41,000 --> 02:08:44,240
Speaker 1: I think there is sometimes a tremendous economic burden put

2313
02:08:44,280 --> 02:08:52,440
Speaker 1: on men that is well beyond their capacity. I've seen

2314
02:08:52,560 --> 02:08:56,840
Speaker 1: child support awards and spousal maintenance or alimony awards that

2315
02:08:56,920 --> 02:09:03,000
Speaker 1: are so gigantic that it just literally cripples a man,

2316
02:09:04,720 --> 02:09:07,800
Speaker 1: especially when someone's lost their job, and then the courts

2317
02:09:07,800 --> 02:09:10,280
Speaker 1: are very quick sometimes to say, well, you're earning capacity

2318
02:09:10,360 --> 02:09:12,960
Speaker 1: is commensurate with your last employment, so you'll find another job.

2319
02:09:13,440 --> 02:09:16,400
Speaker 1: So the world can be cruel to men in that way.

2320
02:09:16,720 --> 02:09:19,400
Speaker 1: And also I think there even though we abolished what

2321
02:09:19,480 --> 02:09:22,600
Speaker 1: used to be called the maternal presumption, which was a

2322
02:09:22,640 --> 02:09:25,160
Speaker 1: presumption or used to be called the tender years doctrine,

2323
02:09:25,160 --> 02:09:28,160
Speaker 1: which is the presumption that women are better custodial parents

2324
02:09:28,160 --> 02:09:30,800
Speaker 1: to children than men, we still live in the world

2325
02:09:30,960 --> 02:09:33,920
Speaker 1: and there's a tremendous amount of bias, and there are

2326
02:09:34,000 --> 02:09:35,760
Speaker 1: a lot of really good dads and a lot of

2327
02:09:35,760 --> 02:09:39,560
Speaker 1: really awful moms and vice versa. But to suggest that

2328
02:09:39,600 --> 02:09:42,800
Speaker 1: because someone gave birth to a child, like under your

2329
02:09:42,800 --> 02:09:45,880
Speaker 1: skin is under your sovereignty. To assume that that person

2330
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:49,000
Speaker 1: is a better caregiver to a child is absolutely ridiculous.

2331
02:09:49,120 --> 02:09:55,520
Speaker 1: So men are terribly hurt by the divorce system and

2332
02:09:55,560 --> 02:10:01,240
Speaker 1: the divorce industrial complex in those ways. They don't have

2333
02:10:01,280 --> 02:10:04,160
Speaker 1: the time with their children that they probably would benefit

2334
02:10:04,240 --> 02:10:07,560
Speaker 1: from and that the children would benefit from. And it's

2335
02:10:07,840 --> 02:10:13,200
Speaker 1: very easy to weaponize those things. Women, the divorce system

2336
02:10:13,400 --> 02:10:17,080
Speaker 1: is sometimes very expensive to get the relief that you're

2337
02:10:17,240 --> 02:10:21,160
Speaker 1: entitled to. The barriers to entry into getting that award

2338
02:10:21,240 --> 02:10:27,000
Speaker 1: is very challenging. And I think post divorce, my observation

2339
02:10:27,560 --> 02:10:34,560
Speaker 1: has been a divorced man his prospects for future relationships

2340
02:10:34,600 --> 02:10:39,440
Speaker 1: are better. Yeah, I think when and again, this is not,

2341
02:10:40,480 --> 02:10:43,880
Speaker 1: you know, an indictment of I believe me. I'm sure

2342
02:10:43,880 --> 02:10:45,920
Speaker 1: that there are exceptions to this, like there are to everything,

2343
02:10:46,840 --> 02:10:54,000
Speaker 1: but by and large, women, in my observation of many, many,

2344
02:10:54,000 --> 02:11:00,880
Speaker 1: many many clients, divorced men have a much bigger menu

2345
02:11:00,920 --> 02:11:04,920
Speaker 1: of options. Like there's you know, a guy gets divorced

2346
02:11:04,960 --> 02:11:07,160
Speaker 1: in his early forties and he's got a couple of kids,

2347
02:11:08,080 --> 02:11:10,320
Speaker 1: he can usually get women in their twenties and their

2348
02:11:10,320 --> 02:11:12,600
Speaker 1: thirties because they'll look at it and go, oh, instant family,

2349
02:11:12,680 --> 02:11:14,640
Speaker 1: just add me like great, Like I'll be a step

2350
02:11:14,680 --> 02:11:16,960
Speaker 1: parent and you know, I'll get involved in this. Maybe

2351
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:18,800
Speaker 1: we'll have our own kids too, but even if we don't,

2352
02:11:18,800 --> 02:11:21,800
Speaker 1: I'll get to have something quasi parental. And by the way,

2353
02:11:21,840 --> 02:11:25,120
Speaker 1: there will also be divorced women who he you know, hey,

2354
02:11:25,200 --> 02:11:27,640
Speaker 1: our life lives are similar. We have co parents, we

2355
02:11:27,640 --> 02:11:29,640
Speaker 1: have these things. Let's get together and let's get married

2356
02:11:29,640 --> 02:11:33,120
Speaker 1: and Brady bunch it. You know, women, I think get

2357
02:11:33,280 --> 02:11:35,120
Speaker 1: a shorter end of the stick on that. I think

2358
02:11:35,160 --> 02:11:37,480
Speaker 1: that there are a lot of men who see a

2359
02:11:37,520 --> 02:11:42,080
Speaker 1: woman who's divorced, even a young, beautiful, intelligent, articulate woman

2360
02:11:42,480 --> 02:11:44,960
Speaker 1: who's divorced through no fault of her own. Perhaps maybe

2361
02:11:45,040 --> 02:11:47,480
Speaker 1: she had made a bad choice and this is not

2362
02:11:48,080 --> 02:11:50,080
Speaker 1: was not a good person for her for her children,

2363
02:11:50,680 --> 02:11:52,280
Speaker 1: and a lot of men will look at it and go,

2364
02:11:53,120 --> 02:11:55,680
Speaker 1: he's got baggage. I don't want to deal with that,

2365
02:11:55,880 --> 02:11:58,360
Speaker 1: and I don't want what comes with that. Again, many

2366
02:11:58,400 --> 02:12:01,440
Speaker 1: men step up in that situation. And I think I've

2367
02:12:01,440 --> 02:12:04,600
Speaker 1: had the amazing experience of watching some men step up

2368
02:12:04,640 --> 02:12:07,480
Speaker 1: where I've had these young female clients and they get

2369
02:12:07,480 --> 02:12:09,880
Speaker 1: divorced and they're just convinced their life is over. They're like,

2370
02:12:09,960 --> 02:12:12,640
Speaker 1: I'm thirty four years old, i got two kids that

2371
02:12:12,640 --> 02:12:16,920
Speaker 1: I'm divorced, you know. And then some guy, very often

2372
02:12:17,040 --> 02:12:19,680
Speaker 1: like unexpected, like a young guy with no kids who's

2373
02:12:19,720 --> 02:12:22,840
Speaker 1: never been married, steps in and is like a hero,

2374
02:12:23,200 --> 02:12:26,160
Speaker 1: and you know, a couple of years later, I'm going

2375
02:12:26,200 --> 02:12:29,440
Speaker 1: to their wedding, you know. And a few of them.

2376
02:12:29,560 --> 02:12:32,960
Speaker 1: I have one couple in particular I'm thinking of, She's

2377
02:12:33,000 --> 02:12:35,600
Speaker 1: had the greatest post divorced life and greatest post divorced

2378
02:12:35,640 --> 02:12:37,920
Speaker 1: marriage I've ever seen. And now they have a baby together,

2379
02:12:38,040 --> 02:12:40,040
Speaker 1: the two of them, and this guy really stepped in

2380
02:12:40,040 --> 02:12:44,040
Speaker 1: to be a step parent for her kids in a

2381
02:12:44,080 --> 02:12:47,920
Speaker 1: beautiful way, and you know, it's amazing. But I think

2382
02:12:47,920 --> 02:12:52,000
Speaker 1: as a general rule, my observation has been it's divorces

2383
02:12:52,280 --> 02:12:54,680
Speaker 1: is hard on men and hard on women in just

2384
02:12:54,760 --> 02:12:55,480
Speaker 1: different ways.

2385
02:12:55,560 --> 02:13:00,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely, James, it has been such as you

2386
02:13:00,280 --> 02:13:02,720
Speaker 2: were talking to you today, and I feel like I'm

2387
02:13:03,200 --> 02:13:07,280
Speaker 2: learning so much and just what's really incredible talking to

2388
02:13:07,280 --> 02:13:10,160
Speaker 2: you about it is that you really do have this

2389
02:13:10,200 --> 02:13:13,440
Speaker 2: wearability to go from being really logical and rational about

2390
02:13:13,440 --> 02:13:15,880
Speaker 2: something to them being really emotion to a motive about it,

2391
02:13:15,920 --> 02:13:19,760
Speaker 2: and it's Yeah, it's really beautiful to watch. I really,

2392
02:13:20,560 --> 02:13:22,880
Speaker 2: I really appreciate you can oscillate between the two quite

2393
02:13:22,920 --> 02:13:27,480
Speaker 2: comfortably and gracefully, and it's really powerful just just taking

2394
02:13:27,480 --> 02:13:32,440
Speaker 2: it all in. And again, the reminders are powerful yet simple.

2395
02:13:32,520 --> 02:13:37,720
Speaker 2: And that's a wonderful thing because it's that with which

2396
02:13:37,760 --> 02:13:41,240
Speaker 2: we're stumbling and those are the same things you're all

2397
02:13:41,240 --> 02:13:42,200
Speaker 2: stumbling over.

2398
02:13:42,040 --> 02:13:45,200
Speaker 1: And so and it's a wonderful commonality for us.

2399
02:13:45,280 --> 02:13:45,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2400
02:13:45,520 --> 02:13:47,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a wonderful part of our humanity.

2401
02:13:47,560 --> 02:13:49,840
Speaker 2: It's great to know that that's what it is. That

2402
02:13:49,880 --> 02:13:52,720
Speaker 2: it wasn't some big thing that you didn't become or

2403
02:13:52,760 --> 02:13:55,800
Speaker 2: that you didn't become successful, or that you didn't you know,

2404
02:13:55,920 --> 02:13:57,600
Speaker 2: something that was so far away, and.

2405
02:13:57,560 --> 02:14:00,000
Speaker 1: That it was right there right And the thing, the piece,

2406
02:14:01,640 --> 02:14:04,720
Speaker 1: the piece we're all looking for, may not be so

2407
02:14:04,840 --> 02:14:08,040
Speaker 1: far away. Yeah, you know, the questions we need to

2408
02:14:08,040 --> 02:14:11,400
Speaker 1: ask may not be so complicated, and the things we

2409
02:14:11,480 --> 02:14:18,600
Speaker 1: need to do to sustain or repair our relationships they

2410
02:14:18,640 --> 02:14:20,960
Speaker 1: may not be that inaccessible. It may be right inside

2411
02:14:21,000 --> 02:14:21,240
Speaker 1: of us.

2412
02:14:22,120 --> 02:14:25,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. We end every interview with a final five. These

2413
02:14:25,640 --> 02:14:27,520
Speaker 2: questions have to be answered in one word to one

2414
02:14:27,560 --> 02:14:31,480
Speaker 2: sentence maximum however, I'll probably break my own rule, knowing

2415
02:14:31,720 --> 02:14:33,720
Speaker 2: how good our conversation's been, and.

2416
02:14:33,680 --> 02:14:35,200
Speaker 1: So you known from my brevity.

2417
02:14:35,360 --> 02:14:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, James X. And these are your final five. So

2418
02:14:38,880 --> 02:14:42,000
Speaker 2: the first question is what is the best advice you've

2419
02:14:42,040 --> 02:14:44,000
Speaker 2: ever heard or received? And of course it can be

2420
02:14:44,080 --> 02:14:47,400
Speaker 2: intertwined to love. So what's the best love advice you've

2421
02:14:47,400 --> 02:14:48,960
Speaker 2: ever heard or received or given?

2422
02:14:50,160 --> 02:14:52,640
Speaker 1: The best advice I've heard in general, and it applies

2423
02:14:52,680 --> 02:14:54,920
Speaker 1: to love as much as it applies to anything else.

2424
02:14:56,000 --> 02:14:58,440
Speaker 1: Is the hard thing to do and the right thing

2425
02:14:58,480 --> 02:15:02,840
Speaker 1: to do, or almost always the same that anytime you're

2426
02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:08,760
Speaker 1: confronted with a choice, that the harder thing is usually

2427
02:15:08,800 --> 02:15:11,800
Speaker 1: the right thing. It's easier to sleep in than to exercise,

2428
02:15:11,880 --> 02:15:14,920
Speaker 1: but it might be the right thing to exercise. It's

2429
02:15:15,640 --> 02:15:18,000
Speaker 1: easier to just hold your tongue and not share with

2430
02:15:18,040 --> 02:15:21,040
Speaker 1: your partners something that needs to be shared. But the

2431
02:15:21,120 --> 02:15:22,520
Speaker 1: right thing to do is to do the hard thing.

2432
02:15:22,560 --> 02:15:24,240
Speaker 1: So the hard thing to do and the right thing

2433
02:15:24,280 --> 02:15:25,760
Speaker 1: to do are almost always the same thing.

2434
02:15:26,280 --> 02:15:28,720
Speaker 2: It's great on so I love that never had it

2435
02:15:28,800 --> 02:15:31,120
Speaker 2: on the show. Question number two, what is the worst

2436
02:15:31,560 --> 02:15:33,240
Speaker 2: love advice you've ever heard or received?

2437
02:15:34,520 --> 02:15:35,760
Speaker 1: Happy Wife, Happy Life?

2438
02:15:36,320 --> 02:15:37,800
Speaker 2: Why is that such people.

2439
02:15:37,480 --> 02:15:40,240
Speaker 1: Say it all the time, and whoever created that, I

2440
02:15:40,280 --> 02:15:45,080
Speaker 1: want to just throttle them. I have an amendment to it,

2441
02:15:45,320 --> 02:15:48,080
Speaker 1: and that is it should not be happy wife, happy life,

2442
02:15:48,080 --> 02:15:53,880
Speaker 1: because what's meant by that is just shut your mouth

2443
02:15:53,960 --> 02:15:56,280
Speaker 1: and just do what she tells you. And that's you know,

2444
02:15:57,280 --> 02:15:59,960
Speaker 1: And I just think it's terrible advice. I think it's

2445
02:16:00,080 --> 02:16:02,520
Speaker 1: way to build estrangement between two people. It's a way

2446
02:16:02,560 --> 02:16:07,400
Speaker 1: to disconnect. I think it could be amended to happy spouse,

2447
02:16:07,440 --> 02:16:12,120
Speaker 1: happy house. I think that's true. I think that if

2448
02:16:12,520 --> 02:16:16,480
Speaker 1: you can help your partner find joy, that your joy

2449
02:16:16,520 --> 02:16:19,040
Speaker 1: will be more accessible and their desire to help you

2450
02:16:19,080 --> 02:16:21,880
Speaker 1: find joy will be more accessible to them, and it

2451
02:16:21,960 --> 02:16:25,160
Speaker 1: creates a positive cycle. So I would say I would

2452
02:16:25,160 --> 02:16:28,560
Speaker 1: say happy wife, happy life is the worst advice. The

2453
02:16:28,600 --> 02:16:32,000
Speaker 1: other the runner up would be follow your heart, Follow

2454
02:16:32,040 --> 02:16:33,920
Speaker 1: your heart. That's one of those things people say like

2455
02:16:33,959 --> 02:16:35,800
Speaker 1: it is what it is. It's like a thing you

2456
02:16:35,840 --> 02:16:39,080
Speaker 1: say when you don't really know what to say, because

2457
02:16:39,080 --> 02:16:45,360
Speaker 1: I genuinely you know, like I don't know that you

2458
02:16:45,360 --> 02:16:48,560
Speaker 1: should listen to your brain because your brain is lying

2459
02:16:48,600 --> 02:16:51,440
Speaker 1: to you all the time. It's good to listen to

2460
02:16:51,480 --> 02:16:54,240
Speaker 1: your body because your body doesn't lie to you. You know,

2461
02:16:54,320 --> 02:16:57,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't have the agenda that your brain has. But

2462
02:16:57,240 --> 02:17:03,000
Speaker 1: your heart really saying is listen to what I think

2463
02:17:03,160 --> 02:17:06,000
Speaker 1: what my mind is telling me, My heart is yang

2464
02:17:06,360 --> 02:17:08,560
Speaker 1: and that's that's dangerous.

2465
02:17:08,840 --> 02:17:11,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I like both of them. Great picks. There's

2466
02:17:11,680 --> 02:17:15,960
Speaker 2: something you've really talked about today which was a resounding

2467
02:17:16,360 --> 02:17:20,600
Speaker 2: kind of principle, was this idea of it's so much

2468
02:17:20,760 --> 02:17:25,720
Speaker 2: raising above just pleasure and happiness and comfort, and this

2469
02:17:25,800 --> 02:17:29,920
Speaker 2: idea of being with someone who wants you to become

2470
02:17:30,640 --> 02:17:33,760
Speaker 2: the most authentic version of you and vice versa. And

2471
02:17:33,800 --> 02:17:37,039
Speaker 2: that's such a different thing that you think you're signing

2472
02:17:37,080 --> 02:17:39,040
Speaker 2: up for when you get married, because most people were

2473
02:17:39,040 --> 02:17:41,280
Speaker 2: just signing up for you make me happy, you make

2474
02:17:41,360 --> 02:17:43,400
Speaker 2: me feel good, and those are a part of that,

2475
02:17:43,480 --> 02:17:45,920
Speaker 2: and those are important, and no one's saying those things

2476
02:17:45,959 --> 02:17:49,840
Speaker 2: are not critical, but signing up to say, well, the

2477
02:17:49,920 --> 02:17:54,080
Speaker 2: long term, that's going to evolve into I'm going to

2478
02:17:54,120 --> 02:17:56,560
Speaker 2: help you become the most authentic version of you, and

2479
02:17:56,600 --> 02:17:59,080
Speaker 2: you're going to help me become And that's a massive

2480
02:17:59,120 --> 02:18:01,400
Speaker 2: evolution from you make me happy right.

2481
02:18:01,320 --> 02:18:05,000
Speaker 1: Now, because I think it says something of our humanity.

2482
02:18:05,720 --> 02:18:12,480
Speaker 1: Because my personal belief my personal experience has led me

2483
02:18:12,520 --> 02:18:15,520
Speaker 1: to believe as a human being. You know, I was

2484
02:18:15,640 --> 02:18:19,920
Speaker 1: raised very Catholic, very religious, and I've since left faith,

2485
02:18:20,000 --> 02:18:22,560
Speaker 1: you know, but I still believe in God, and I

2486
02:18:22,600 --> 02:18:28,280
Speaker 1: still like the concepts, and I don't believe in a devil,

2487
02:18:29,280 --> 02:18:31,760
Speaker 1: you know, I don't believe that there's this nefarious evil force.

2488
02:18:32,920 --> 02:18:36,760
Speaker 1: But if there was a devil, I think his principal

2489
02:18:36,840 --> 02:18:41,400
Speaker 1: function would be to tell us what I think many

2490
02:18:41,480 --> 02:18:47,400
Speaker 1: of us secretly believe, and that is that we are

2491
02:18:47,480 --> 02:18:52,879
Speaker 1: so awful that God couldn't possibly love us. And I

2492
02:18:52,920 --> 02:18:56,440
Speaker 1: think there is some part of us as human that

2493
02:18:56,600 --> 02:18:59,520
Speaker 1: sees all the ugliness in us, that's in all of us,

2494
02:19:00,040 --> 02:19:06,000
Speaker 1: all the selfishness, all the greed, all the lust, all

2495
02:19:06,040 --> 02:19:09,160
Speaker 1: the envy, all of it, all of it, all of

2496
02:19:09,160 --> 02:19:14,760
Speaker 1: our humanity, that piece of our humanity, and is convinced

2497
02:19:15,240 --> 02:19:18,760
Speaker 1: and doesn't want to say out loud that if someone

2498
02:19:18,840 --> 02:19:23,000
Speaker 1: knew us, they couldn't possibly love us. Like that's I

2499
02:19:23,000 --> 02:19:27,160
Speaker 1: think our deepest fear, our deepest fear, is that if

2500
02:19:27,200 --> 02:19:32,920
Speaker 1: you knew me, you wouldn't love me anymore. And so

2501
02:19:32,959 --> 02:19:37,120
Speaker 1: the opposite is true, which is when when you feel

2502
02:19:37,280 --> 02:19:42,000
Speaker 1: truly known, your good parts, your bad parts and loved.

2503
02:19:43,320 --> 02:19:47,440
Speaker 1: That is the greatest feeling. Like that is the greatest

2504
02:19:47,520 --> 02:19:50,720
Speaker 1: experience a person can have. And by the way, we

2505
02:19:50,800 --> 02:19:54,680
Speaker 1: have it very often with our children, where like we

2506
02:19:54,760 --> 02:19:57,480
Speaker 1: don't care, like no, no, they make mistakes, but it's okay.

2507
02:19:57,560 --> 02:19:59,280
Speaker 1: I love them anyway. Oh no, they're bad at this,

2508
02:19:59,320 --> 02:20:01,080
Speaker 1: but it doesn't matter. Love them any like. I see

2509
02:20:01,120 --> 02:20:02,959
Speaker 1: them works and all, I see all the bad and

2510
02:20:03,000 --> 02:20:05,160
Speaker 1: all the good and the whole amalgam, and I love

2511
02:20:05,200 --> 02:20:07,039
Speaker 1: them anyway, like I love them with all my heart.

2512
02:20:07,879 --> 02:20:11,320
Speaker 1: So to me, I think that's that's the core of

2513
02:20:11,360 --> 02:20:16,400
Speaker 1: it is. We're just afraid that if someone knew us,

2514
02:20:16,400 --> 02:20:18,600
Speaker 1: they wouldn't love us. So we add all these other

2515
02:20:18,680 --> 02:20:20,840
Speaker 1: things on, well how can I make this person feel pleasure?

2516
02:20:21,240 --> 02:20:23,840
Speaker 1: And how can it? And anytime they don't serve my pleasure,

2517
02:20:23,920 --> 02:20:25,720
Speaker 1: well now they're failing my needs. And we create all

2518
02:20:25,760 --> 02:20:29,080
Speaker 1: these ways to self sabotage relationships, when in fact, what

2519
02:20:29,120 --> 02:20:32,720
Speaker 1: it really is is we don't really love ourselves. We

2520
02:20:32,800 --> 02:20:37,879
Speaker 1: don't think we're worthy of love. And I think, again,

2521
02:20:37,920 --> 02:20:41,439
Speaker 1: I'm not really Christian, but I think the most radical

2522
02:20:41,480 --> 02:20:48,160
Speaker 1: message that Jesus said in the Gospels was essentially that

2523
02:20:48,360 --> 02:20:53,200
Speaker 1: we are worthy of love, not that we should love others,

2524
02:20:54,000 --> 02:20:57,800
Speaker 1: but that we should love ourselves, that we should believe

2525
02:20:57,840 --> 02:21:00,440
Speaker 1: that we are worthy of love, God's love, the love

2526
02:21:00,480 --> 02:21:04,320
Speaker 1: of each other. And I genuinely think if we gave

2527
02:21:04,360 --> 02:21:07,360
Speaker 1: each other the grace like gave ourselves the grace we

2528
02:21:07,400 --> 02:21:10,000
Speaker 1: give each other, you know, like because if you described

2529
02:21:10,080 --> 02:21:12,480
Speaker 1: to me all of the horrible things about you right now,

2530
02:21:12,680 --> 02:21:14,520
Speaker 1: Like if the mics were off and you said to me,

2531
02:21:14,560 --> 02:21:16,720
Speaker 1: you know, Jim, I know that we've met and we've

2532
02:21:16,720 --> 02:21:19,520
Speaker 1: now had a lovely conversation, But if you got to

2533
02:21:19,560 --> 02:21:21,120
Speaker 1: the core of who I am, I have all of

2534
02:21:21,160 --> 02:21:23,160
Speaker 1: these horrible things, and you told me about all these

2535
02:21:23,160 --> 02:21:25,879
Speaker 1: selfish things, like people do all day long in my office,

2536
02:21:25,879 --> 02:21:29,800
Speaker 1: they tell me all the horrible things they've done. And

2537
02:21:29,879 --> 02:21:33,199
Speaker 1: I was to say, Okay, that means you're human. Yeah,

2538
02:21:33,320 --> 02:21:35,520
Speaker 1: and that means you're human. That doesn't mean you're an awful,

2539
02:21:35,600 --> 02:21:38,680
Speaker 1: terrible person. You screwed up. You did some things that

2540
02:21:38,800 --> 02:21:40,880
Speaker 1: maybe you shouldn't have done. You should learn from that,

2541
02:21:40,959 --> 02:21:42,720
Speaker 1: you should figure out how to not do that. You

2542
02:21:42,800 --> 02:21:45,400
Speaker 1: see what it's led you to. But like it's okay,

2543
02:21:45,720 --> 02:21:49,200
Speaker 1: Like I don't think you're a bad person, Like that's

2544
02:21:49,240 --> 02:21:51,080
Speaker 1: the loveliest thing in the world. And that's what I

2545
02:21:51,120 --> 02:21:53,840
Speaker 1: think love can be at its best and marriage can

2546
02:21:53,879 --> 02:21:58,000
Speaker 1: be at its best. Is that creation of that authentic self? Yeah,

2547
02:21:58,360 --> 02:21:59,560
Speaker 1: I'm doing great with the one word answer.

2548
02:21:59,600 --> 02:22:01,360
Speaker 2: Well, I said no, no, no, I wanted you to. I was

2549
02:22:01,400 --> 02:22:05,800
Speaker 2: really happy about that. Question Number three, what's the question

2550
02:22:05,879 --> 02:22:09,200
Speaker 2: people never ask before marriage but absolutely should.

2551
02:22:10,240 --> 02:22:12,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll go to my earlier question, which is

2552
02:22:12,520 --> 02:22:14,560
Speaker 1: what is the problem to which marriage is a solution

2553
02:22:15,120 --> 02:22:15,400
Speaker 1: for you?

2554
02:22:15,480 --> 02:22:16,000
Speaker 2: Specifically?

2555
02:22:16,160 --> 02:22:19,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, why am I getting married? Yeah? And why is

2556
02:22:19,280 --> 02:22:21,840
Speaker 1: this other person getting married? And are those goals aligned?

2557
02:22:22,520 --> 02:22:26,560
Speaker 1: I think that's a very worthwhile question. Yeah, I think

2558
02:22:26,600 --> 02:22:28,960
Speaker 1: that would be the best question to ask. I think

2559
02:22:29,040 --> 02:22:32,320
Speaker 1: is that what is the problem I am trying to

2560
02:22:32,480 --> 02:22:37,280
Speaker 1: solve by getting married, and what is the problem that

2561
02:22:37,320 --> 02:22:41,240
Speaker 1: this person is trying to solve? And are those goals aligned?

2562
02:22:42,240 --> 02:22:46,400
Speaker 1: I also think it's worthwhile to ask at the risk

2563
02:22:46,440 --> 02:22:49,240
Speaker 1: of being unromantic, although it's fairly obvious I'm a romantic

2564
02:22:49,280 --> 02:22:53,760
Speaker 1: at heart. I think there's also some really practical questions

2565
02:22:53,800 --> 02:22:57,039
Speaker 1: people should ask, like unit person or a morning person,

2566
02:22:57,600 --> 02:22:59,680
Speaker 1: are you okay with dishes in the sink? Because I'm

2567
02:22:59,680 --> 02:23:02,520
Speaker 1: not at all ever you know what I mean, Like,

2568
02:23:02,959 --> 02:23:04,880
Speaker 1: are you a neat freak or somebody that's kind of

2569
02:23:04,920 --> 02:23:06,720
Speaker 1: you know, do you leave your socks everywhere? Can you

2570
02:23:06,720 --> 02:23:08,760
Speaker 1: tolerate someone who leaves their socks everywhere? I do tend

2571
02:23:08,760 --> 02:23:11,920
Speaker 1: to leave my socks everywhere, So I think, you know,

2572
02:23:12,200 --> 02:23:14,400
Speaker 1: having some honest conversations about you're not just gonna loo

2573
02:23:14,400 --> 02:23:18,080
Speaker 1: because your wife's your wife, she's also your roommate, she's

2574
02:23:18,080 --> 02:23:22,000
Speaker 1: also your business partner, she's also your vacation companion. She's like,

2575
02:23:22,320 --> 02:23:24,480
Speaker 1: she's got a whole bunch of jobs, just like if

2576
02:23:24,480 --> 02:23:27,200
Speaker 1: that was a job description for your companies. Yeah, it's

2577
02:23:27,200 --> 02:23:30,720
Speaker 1: a long one, you know. So have some practical conversations

2578
02:23:30,760 --> 02:23:33,200
Speaker 1: about like the nuts and bolts of being married and

2579
02:23:33,200 --> 02:23:35,080
Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts of having a life together.

2580
02:23:35,440 --> 02:23:40,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Great, answer a question number four. What's a lie

2581
02:23:40,560 --> 02:23:43,880
Speaker 2: that couples tell themselves at the start of a relationship

2582
02:23:44,480 --> 02:23:46,679
Speaker 2: that ultimately breaks them.

2583
02:23:46,600 --> 02:23:52,920
Speaker 1: Two opposite lies that this will change things and that

2584
02:23:53,000 --> 02:23:58,400
Speaker 1: nothing will change in different measure. So sometimes people marry

2585
02:23:59,080 --> 02:24:01,520
Speaker 1: and they go, well, he was the most fidelitous boyfriend,

2586
02:24:01,560 --> 02:24:04,039
Speaker 1: but now that we're married, he'll be committed. Well, you know,

2587
02:24:04,120 --> 02:24:06,400
Speaker 1: he drank a bit too much when we were together,

2588
02:24:06,480 --> 02:24:08,720
Speaker 1: but now you know, and she was a bit of

2589
02:24:08,720 --> 02:24:11,160
Speaker 1: a compulsive spender. But once we marry, that'll rain in

2590
02:24:11,240 --> 02:24:13,520
Speaker 1: and we'll settle into it. So thinking that this person's

2591
02:24:13,600 --> 02:24:17,120
Speaker 1: going to change, and that the act of marrying someone

2592
02:24:17,160 --> 02:24:23,800
Speaker 1: will change fundamentally the relationship, and also thinking, I'm marrying

2593
02:24:23,840 --> 02:24:27,080
Speaker 1: this person how they are now, how I am now,

2594
02:24:27,720 --> 02:24:30,240
Speaker 1: and it will never change. We will always be what

2595
02:24:30,320 --> 02:24:32,080
Speaker 1: we are to each other. It will always feel the

2596
02:24:32,080 --> 02:24:36,440
Speaker 1: way it currently feels. We will never change that much.

2597
02:24:37,520 --> 02:24:41,039
Speaker 1: I think that's ridiculous. We change a tremendous amount with

2598
02:24:41,080 --> 02:24:44,879
Speaker 1: each passing decade of my life. I look back and go,

2599
02:24:45,000 --> 02:24:47,879
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, what changes in me? Not just my

2600
02:24:48,000 --> 02:24:50,440
Speaker 1: hair and my back hurting, Like, what are the changes?

2601
02:24:50,480 --> 02:24:52,840
Speaker 1: There's so much change as to how I approach things.

2602
02:24:53,400 --> 02:24:56,560
Speaker 1: So I think the two lies are that nothing will

2603
02:24:56,640 --> 02:24:58,880
Speaker 1: change and that things will change.

2604
02:25:00,040 --> 02:25:02,920
Speaker 2: Gray answer. I love that. Fifth and final question. We

2605
02:25:02,959 --> 02:25:04,879
Speaker 2: asked this every guest who's ever been on the show.

2606
02:25:05,400 --> 02:25:07,680
Speaker 2: If you could create one law that everyone in the

2607
02:25:07,680 --> 02:25:09,480
Speaker 2: world had to follow, what would it be.

2608
02:25:10,440 --> 02:25:14,560
Speaker 1: Shortly after your eighteenth birthday, you would have to spend

2609
02:25:15,200 --> 02:25:20,720
Speaker 1: six months or so volunteering for hospice. I think we

2610
02:25:20,879 --> 02:25:26,000
Speaker 1: shield our society from death, and I think it infects

2611
02:25:26,000 --> 02:25:31,160
Speaker 1: the way we look at life. It morphs in unhealthy

2612
02:25:31,200 --> 02:25:37,320
Speaker 1: ways the way we viewed death, and it causes us

2613
02:25:37,360 --> 02:25:41,520
Speaker 1: to focus on a lot of the wrong things. A

2614
02:25:41,560 --> 02:25:44,879
Speaker 1: divorce is a death of sorts. It's not surprising to

2615
02:25:44,959 --> 02:25:49,360
Speaker 1: me that I went from hospice to divorce work because

2616
02:25:49,400 --> 02:25:53,360
Speaker 1: it's all about endings. Everything is ending all the time.

2617
02:25:54,480 --> 02:25:58,160
Speaker 1: And so I think if at the age of eighteen,

2618
02:25:58,480 --> 02:26:01,400
Speaker 1: everyone had to do mandatory service where they spent time

2619
02:26:01,440 --> 02:26:04,560
Speaker 1: working with the terminally ill, I think it would change

2620
02:26:04,600 --> 02:26:07,880
Speaker 1: fundamentally the way that our society was structured. I think

2621
02:26:07,879 --> 02:26:12,279
Speaker 1: that you would. I think so much of our world

2622
02:26:12,360 --> 02:26:14,920
Speaker 1: is designed to take your attention away from the fact

2623
02:26:14,920 --> 02:26:19,640
Speaker 1: that you're definitely going to die, Because if you thought

2624
02:26:19,640 --> 02:26:23,520
Speaker 1: about the fact that you're definitely going to die, you

2625
02:26:23,560 --> 02:26:25,959
Speaker 1: wouldn't really care so much about what everybody else is selling.

2626
02:26:26,280 --> 02:26:29,040
Speaker 1: You would be much more focused on what really matters

2627
02:26:29,040 --> 02:26:32,040
Speaker 1: in life, and you wouldn't chase so many phantoms. So

2628
02:26:32,080 --> 02:26:35,520
Speaker 1: I would say that we would do society a tremendous

2629
02:26:35,520 --> 02:26:39,600
Speaker 1: service to do that. An answer number two to that

2630
02:26:39,640 --> 02:26:42,720
Speaker 1: would be, you know, there would be like a mandatory

2631
02:26:42,720 --> 02:26:46,280
Speaker 1: waiting period to get married, Like, it should not be

2632
02:26:46,400 --> 02:26:49,000
Speaker 1: something that you can do just with fifty bucks by

2633
02:26:49,040 --> 02:26:50,920
Speaker 1: a guy who's dressed like Elvis when you're in Vegas

2634
02:26:50,920 --> 02:26:53,560
Speaker 1: hopped up on hormones and alcohol, like it should be.

2635
02:26:54,080 --> 02:26:56,120
Speaker 1: There should be, Like you know, with guns, there's like

2636
02:26:56,120 --> 02:26:59,320
Speaker 1: a waiting period. You know, you get a driver's license,

2637
02:26:59,400 --> 02:27:03,480
Speaker 1: you know, like a written test, you gotta practice, you

2638
02:27:03,480 --> 02:27:05,680
Speaker 1: get like a learner's permit, and then there's restrictions on

2639
02:27:05,720 --> 02:27:08,400
Speaker 1: how much you're allowed to drive. Like married man, it's nothing.

2640
02:27:08,640 --> 02:27:09,119
Speaker 1: You just here.

2641
02:27:09,160 --> 02:27:09,400
Speaker 2: It is.

2642
02:27:09,600 --> 02:27:12,160
Speaker 1: Knock yourselves out, kids, figure it out, you know. I

2643
02:27:12,160 --> 02:27:16,400
Speaker 1: think there would be some some form of pre marital education.

2644
02:27:17,400 --> 02:27:19,440
Speaker 1: Maybe you have to talk to people that have been divorced.

2645
02:27:19,440 --> 02:27:21,320
Speaker 1: You have to talk to people that are divorce lawyers,

2646
02:27:21,320 --> 02:27:22,600
Speaker 1: you have to talk to some people that have been

2647
02:27:22,640 --> 02:27:27,080
Speaker 1: successfully married that volunteer for the gig, and then you

2648
02:27:27,080 --> 02:27:28,440
Speaker 1: can decide if you get married or not.

2649
02:27:29,440 --> 02:27:31,800
Speaker 2: That's a great answer. I love it, jam Sexton. The

2650
02:27:31,800 --> 02:27:33,880
Speaker 2: book's called How to Stay in Love. If you don't

2651
02:27:33,920 --> 02:27:36,800
Speaker 2: already follow James across social media, make sure you subscribe

2652
02:27:36,800 --> 02:27:42,600
Speaker 2: on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, everywhere and James. Honestly, I love

2653
02:27:42,640 --> 02:27:43,960
Speaker 2: this I hope you will come back on. I feel

2654
02:27:44,000 --> 02:27:47,080
Speaker 2: like there's so much more we can explore, There's so

2655
02:27:47,160 --> 02:27:48,840
Speaker 2: much more we can go into. But I'm so glad

2656
02:27:48,879 --> 02:27:51,160
Speaker 2: I suspected it would go there. Yeah, there's three hours?

2657
02:27:51,640 --> 02:27:54,520
Speaker 1: Is it really? You know? I can always there's very

2658
02:27:54,520 --> 02:27:58,000
Speaker 1: few conversations that I can say that about. But it's

2659
02:27:58,040 --> 02:28:01,320
Speaker 1: really lovely, because there's no thing more lovely than when

2660
02:28:01,800 --> 02:28:04,760
Speaker 1: I absolutely lose track of time in a conversation and

2661
02:28:04,800 --> 02:28:06,320
Speaker 1: it feels like it was a half an hour and

2662
02:28:06,800 --> 02:28:08,520
Speaker 1: I go, how long was that? So this is one

2663
02:28:08,560 --> 02:28:11,080
Speaker 1: of those. So of course I would very much welcome

2664
02:28:11,120 --> 02:28:12,959
Speaker 1: the chance to sit down again. And I'm really glad

2665
02:28:12,959 --> 02:28:13,800
Speaker 1: we made this connection.

2666
02:28:14,000 --> 02:28:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, James, very welcome. You're awesome. That was amazing,

2667
02:28:17,240 --> 02:28:17,879
Speaker 2: very incredible.

2668
02:28:18,200 --> 02:28:18,680
Speaker 1: Thanks Matt.

2669
02:28:18,800 --> 02:28:21,760
Speaker 2: If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with

2670
02:28:22,000 --> 02:28:26,200
Speaker 2: Dr Gable Matte on understanding your trauma and how to

2671
02:28:26,280 --> 02:28:29,879
Speaker 2: heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

2672
02:28:30,240 --> 02:28:32,279
Speaker 2: Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable.

2673
02:28:32,320 --> 02:28:34,920
Speaker 1: So a tree doesn't go over it's hard and thick,

2674
02:28:35,040 --> 02:28:35,360
Speaker 1: does it.

2675
02:28:35,360 --> 02:28:37,720
Speaker 2: It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.