WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: The Grimes Sisters 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.040 Thinking Sideways is not brought you by your weird uncle 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.000 who always brings candy that tastes kind of funny. Instead, 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.280 it's brought you by crime Con. That's right, crime Con. 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:11.440 If you haven't heard us talk about it before, Crime 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:15.360 Con is gonna be June nine through eleven of this year, 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.200 and it's gonna be at the JW. Marriott in Indianapolis. 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:26.720 There's gonna be a lot of famous folks there, crime commentators, investigators. 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.360 There's even gonna be some sniffer dogs that we get 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:31.360 to talk to. I really want to find out what 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.839 those dogs have to say. There's gonna be other podcasts 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:37.600 there that deal with crime just like us, so there's 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.320 gonna be great panels. I think we're gonna be on 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:44.360 a panel, so you should definitely come. As a special 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.720 offer to our listeners, we have a promo code of 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:52.800 Sideways twenty to get off your registration fee. So go 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.720 to crime con dot com and register today and we 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:10.640 can't wait to see you guys in June. Thinking Sideways. 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.440 I don't know stories of things we simply don't know 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:20.920 the answer to. Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:26.520 Thinking Sideways, the podcast. I'm Devin joined as usual by 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:32.399 also known as Squinty Quincy McGhee over there. Yeah, oh sorry, 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:36.360 I'm now going by squirrel. Oh, Squinty and squirrel. Just 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.360 to case you're wondering, I'm I'm just messing with Devin 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.920 by squinting, and it really hard suspiciously calling you squinty. 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.760 You didn't give that away at all. Yeah, Today we're 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:49.080 gonna talk about mystery, not cooking. We're going to talk 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.000 about a mystery that was suggested in two thousand fourteen 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.440 by Hunter and then by literally every single one of 0:01:55.480 --> 0:02:02.440 you since then. So what was that very beginning all 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:08.639 the time ago. Yeah, world, it's true and yeah, um, 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.880 so we're going to talk about the disappearance and subsequent 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:16.919 murder of the Grimes sisters this year, this year, this week. 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:18.919 I mean, we can do it all year. I mean 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:21.480 we are doing it this year. It is happening this year. 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:27.239 Sorry to be a good episode, you guys, just getting 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.320 ready for it. So if you don't know, quick overview 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.840 is that on December nineteen fifty six, Barbara and Patricia Grimes, 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:39.320 who are aged fifteen and thirteen, respectively, disappeared, and then 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:43.960 they were found dead on January nineteen fifty seven in 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:50.440 a shallow ditch on the side of the road near Chicago. Okay, yeah, 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.440 this is two Chicago shows in a row for you. Yeah, 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:57.880 it's actually to Silas Jane episodes in a row in 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.720 a row. Yeah, you know. Oh, we'll get those ratings up. Guys, 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:07.959 got a pump it. Let's back up a little bit. 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:12.280 Give a little contexts about Chicago. When Chicago founded, well, 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:22.440 Chicago was founded in when Columbus sailed the ocean blow right, 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:28.359 that's how that. Okay, No, for seriously, the Grime sisters 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.919 lived with their mom, their older brother and sister, and 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.680 their younger siblings. There were a lot of siblings, and frankly, 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.720 I've never seen exactly how many kids were in this family, 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.240 but they were one of there were two of many. 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:45.120 There were at least five. I think there were at 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:47.520 least five to Yeah, and they were you know, working 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.480 class neighborhood called McKinley Park, which is kind of south 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:54.280 and west of downtown Chicago. It's not a suburb, it's 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.640 the neighborhood of Chicago. I get. I mean, I just 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.560 take for granted that people understand how big cities work. 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:01.560 But I us. It's possible that they don't. It's that, 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:05.160 you know, most of them have kind of neighborhoods within, 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.320 have their own names, and you can even just google 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:10.920 like McKinley Park, Illinois and it comes up. I did 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.520 it today. Yeah, and it's probably the address officially probably 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.440 is Chicago. It is in Chicago. There's a lot of 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:21.640 that going on right here. Yeah, solidly in Chicago. It's 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:26.040 about halfway to Midway Airport on m I ninety. It's 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:27.960 not on MY ninety, but in that sort of way 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:30.600 if you're familiar with the Chicago area at all. Anyway, 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:34.800 the girls who were predictably for the time into the 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:40.080 King Mr Elvis Presley himself, Yeah and um. On the 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:42.640 night of their disappearance, the girls were attending a double 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:45.800 feature showing of the Elvis film Love Me Tender, And 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:49.000 apparently who cares what the second film was, because it 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.320 was Loved Me Tender. I think the second was the 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:55.520 Elvis this film Loved Me to Death. I don't think so. No, 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.120 it was a movie where Elvis played the serial killer. 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.040 I can't remember now. I don't know. I'm not an 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.480 aficionatto of Elvis films, and may surprise you to know, 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.320 given that I was not a teenage girl in the fifties, 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.360 which is weird. It is weird that I wasn't. It's true. 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:14.120 This was actually their fifteenth viewing of this film, apparently. Yeah, 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.480 that's a lot of times. You know, young people I've 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:23.200 noticed have a much bigger tolerance for repetition. Yeah, better 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:27.240 capacity typically, though you you observed that in younger people 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:30.800 are in single digits of the age. Yeah, you know, 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.480 I want to watch Thomas the Train again kind of repetition, 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:38.200 not go to the movie theater. Well, you know, it's 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.159 the time, it's the equivalent. Baby. Well, I was going 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:43.960 to say, it's you know, fifteen and thirteen is a 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:48.080 time of certain sexual awakenings. And you know, when you've 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:50.279 got Elvis in this love film, I can understand how 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:52.920 maybe that would be and you do a lot, and 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:54.480 maybe that was just a good way for them to 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:56.240 get out of the house. That's exactly what I was 0:05:56.279 --> 0:06:00.280 going to say. So they I think they walk to 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.720 the theater. Every report says they got to Nobody knows 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:05.640 how they got to the theater, but they only had 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:08.880 two dollars and fifteen cents on them. Although if you 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:13.000 see on some web pages two dollars and yeah, either way, 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:18.040 it's like about twenty three dollars adjusted for inflation today's money. Yeah, 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:20.920 and obviously this is keeping in mind also that you know, 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.839 the cost of film, even adjusted for inflation, has gone 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:27.720 up quite dramatically. You know, when I was a kid, 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:29.680 I don't want to date myself too much, but movies 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.160 in general, even first round ones, were not as exorbitantly expensive, 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:38.200 even adjusted for you know, yeah, I personally blame Michael Bay. Yeah, yeah, 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.040 I mean a Star Wars actually Star Wars. Actually they 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:43.680 actually bumped ticket prices for the original Star Wars and 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.440 and and every movie after that was yes, what Yeah, 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.640 so twenty three dollars was not nothing, but it wasn't 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:52.960 It wasn't a ton of money, especially for both of them. 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:56.880 It was about enough for them to for their film. Yeah, sorry, 0:06:57.240 --> 0:06:59.920 the equivalent of three dollars. So the two fifteen is 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.560 enough for them to pay for their movie tickets, they're 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.000 double feature tickets, get some popcorn for themselves, and then 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.920 catch the bus home. Um, but probably not enough for 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.200 them to have also taken the bus there. But maybe 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:16.560 the movie started. It was like a seven o'clock start 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.080 or something like that, wasn't it. It was a seven 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:23.680 thirty start, and then there was the intermission at yeah, 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.160 and then the then the double feature ended at like 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:32.160 eleven eleven thirty ish, which is is late um night. Yeah, 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.800 I don't think it probably was. It was, you know, December. 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:38.040 They were probably on break. Yeah, it's kind of hard 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.560 to imagine sitting through a double feature today. I did 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.000 it all the time as a kid. I So the 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.239 last time I saw double feature was on my sixth 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:47.880 For my sixteenth birthday, my mom and I took a 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:49.800 road trip and we were went to a drive in 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.880 and we saw a double double feature of Finding Nemo 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.880 and Pirates of Caribbean. So if that ages me, there 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.240 you go dates me. Now, you know exactly how land 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.040 because nobody knew until this moment exactly how old I was. 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:08.640 I am super old. Yeah. Yeah, Okay, So they the 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.680 girls did arrive safely at the movie theater, sure we 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:14.640 know that for sure. They actually were seated in front 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:18.360 of a friend, Dorothy and her younger sister. Dorothy reports 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.480 the girls were enjoying the film. They got popcorn around 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:24.560 at intermission time, you know, let's all go to the 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:28.640 lobby to know that they were enjoying the film. Yes, suspiciously. 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:30.480 All she could see was the back of their heads. 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.559 I presumed they were enjoying it together, all of them. 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:40.079 And then their mother, her name was Loretta, had been 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.840 told by the girls, we're just gonna go see the one, 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.439 the first movie, and then we'll come straight home. But she, 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.480 being their mother, knew better and said they're gonna stay 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:50.360 for the whole thing, So she was expecting them home 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:55.400 around eleven. Girl. Also, I think you just get caught 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.520 up in it, you know, you just, um, you think, 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:00.800 oh my friends are here, it's upcorn, and you think 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:04.439 my ask just doesn't quite hurt enough. Yes, it through 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:09.599 another one. Yeah, but midnight rolled around, and um, the 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:13.240 girls still weren't home, and so Loretta started to get 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:17.640 worried and sent her two elder children to wait at 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:22.400 the bus stop for the girls. And apparently three busses 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.760 went past, none of them carrying the sisters. So at 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.640 about two fifteen am, Luretta called the cops and reported 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:33.439 the girls missing. From there, there are a lot of 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.480 reported sightings, and we're just gonna go ahead and talk 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.760 about all of them. Yeah, I'm not sure how credible. 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.319 A lot of them are not very credible, but we're 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:45.120 going to talk about all of them anyway. Well, what 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.079 the hell? Yeah, why not? Yeah, got to fill this 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:52.120 episode with Yeah, frankly, after this, well, let's tend to 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.839 roll the credits. Just kid, I'm just kidding. There's a 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.280 lot to talk about here. So that night, quote unquote 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:02.240 numerous people. It's never or I've never seen how many 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:06.000 people other than their friends that they sat in front of. Well, 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.920 numerous people reported seeing them on a c T A bus. 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.040 Oh okay, sorry, and I was still back in the 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:17.800 theater in Chicago Transit Authority. Yep, heading east, which would 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.360 have been the opposite. It would have been heading home 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:24.520 for them, Yeah, kind of home. Yeah, so that's probably accurate. Yep. 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:26.839 But they may or may not have gotten off that 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:31.160 bus at Western Avenue at eleven o five pm, which 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.640 was only about halfway to their house on the bus. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.839 Two teenage boys reported that they were driving in a 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:40.160 neighborhood and saw the two girls at about eleven thirty 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:46.080 heading east on thirty five Avenue in good spirits, jumping 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:48.520 out of doorways at each other and giggling that which 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:50.760 that would have been about two blocks from their house. 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.920 It sounds like they that I'm I'm happy to accept 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.640 that they almost made it home then almost made it home. However, 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.480 an L train conductor said that he saw the girls 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.920 get off a train at the glen View stop that night. 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.480 Glen View is a suburb of Chicago to the north 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.959 near Palatine, which, of course you might remember Palatine from 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:19.280 a recent episode. And um, it's about twenty miles northeast 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:22.640 of their home in McKinley Park. So that one I'm 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.080 a little questioning there. I was gonna say, we should 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:27.760 stop for just a quick second here because we're going 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:29.679 to have a little bit of this going on, and 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:34.760 just say, we've got two girls, fifteen and thirteen, their 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:39.120 teenage girls. They're of average height, one's got short hair, 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:44.560 one's got longer hair. They're blonde. Were they blonde? Light 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.400 brown hair? It's always hard to tell because they're black 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:49.439 and white photos. So I was never sure. Yeah, I 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.920 mean they're, but they're you know, there's it's not as 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:56.160 if they have any crazy distinguishing, you know, unique features 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.320 about them. They look like most young teenage girls all 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.480 the time exactly, which is why I think of all 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:03.679 of these sidings were not necessarily which is why I 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:05.520 wanted to point that out. I would agree with that. 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:07.920 And they were kind of short. Barbara was the oldest. 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.280 She was five ft one I heard, and Patricia was 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.960 five ft three, even though she was two years younger. Yeah, 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:18.120 Barbara was tremendous. Yeah, no, I mean my height. Yes. Yeah. 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:23.280 Also the night of a security guard claimed that two 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.839 girls asked him for directions. Well, I guess it was 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.040 like early in the morning on the twenty nine, It 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.160 was about two am. He said that the girls asked 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:35.480 him for directions, and he was stationed at Central and 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:37.959 Lawrence at the bus station there, which is about fifteen 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:40.839 miles away from their home at McKinley Park. On the 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:45.439 evening of December twenty nine, classmate of Patricia reported seeing 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:50.280 Patricia and two unidentified girls, neither of whom wore Barbara 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:52.840 walked past the diner that she was having dinner at. 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.800 The diner was Ian McKinley Park, And UM, I don't 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.600 really know what time that was. I presumed dinner ish time. 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.760 That question. It's hard to say. By the way, she 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:07.800 reports that immediately that evening, I believe so. Yeah, although 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.480 I don't think she you know, turned to her parents 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:14.000 or anything and said, look, I don't know if she 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.360 push her parents or what, but she did report that 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:23.280 pretty quickly. On December, at two days after the disappearance, 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:27.880 at five forty am, the owner of a restaurant called 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.199 the D n L claimed to have seen both girls 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.640 with one of his dishwashers named Benny Bedwell. Reports are 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:39.480 that Patricia was appeared to be drunk or sick. Um. 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.559 She was so kind of messed up and disoriented that 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:47.240 she wasn't able to walk without help. Yeah, I mean 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:49.920 sick or drunk. She needs She was staggering and kind 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.439 of needed help walking. A clerk at the Claremont Hotel 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.760 claimed that the girls briefly stayed at his hotel. There's 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.920 no dates associated with the stay, but I presume it 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.120 was before the New Year. And I also wasn't able 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:07.080 to find the location of the Claremont Hotel. As far 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.160 as I can tell, the Claremont Hotel is like a 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:13.240 chain today today, and the only one that comes up 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:15.720 when you Google is in California, So I'm pretty sure 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:20.440 it wasn't the one in California, but I wasn't able 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.200 to find any historic data about where it was. It's 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.280 a little weird. You know, your clerk at a hotel 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.120 and these two young girls come up and want to 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.040 want a room. It's well funny you should say that, 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.600 because we'll talk about that in a second. But I'm 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.720 just trying to do these chronologically, so pause on that 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:39.600 comment for a second. On January one, there were reports 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.920 that the girls were on a C T A train 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:46.120 on Demon Avenue. Demon runs north south pretty much the 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.280 whole length of Chicago, so I'm I'm not totally sure 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:58.000 where where hand me a dart. On January second, a 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.960 hotel clerk at the Unity Hotel said he refused two 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:05.600 girls notching their description a room because they were too young. 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:11.080 And this hotel clerk is reported picked the girls out 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.120 of a photo, like identified them from a photo and said, 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.920 those are the two girls that I denied to. Of course, 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.920 their photos had already been put published in the paper. Yes, 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:25.840 oh yeah. On January three, three employees say the girls 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.240 were in their department store listening to Elvis albums. It 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:33.400 was a Krusky department store, which are now called kmarts. 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.160 You know, actually, Untell, you research the story for us. 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.920 I did not know that kmart had evolved. I didn't either. 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:44.920 I didn't either, And Steve found the location of that. 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:47.960 I in my research wasn't able to find. The closest 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.800 one I could find was in Michigan. But that is wrong. 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.920 So it's do you remember what the it's downtown, downtown, 0:15:55.840 --> 0:16:02.000 downtown Chicago. Yeah, it's about a mile and half northeast 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.320 of where the south and the north legs of the 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.480 Chicago River meet, makes sense, So it's kind of in 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.760 that city city center area. Yeah, downtown, Yeah. Yeah. There 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:17.120 was a report in Nashville of the girls from a 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.080 woman who said that she met them at a bus 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:23.240 station and went with them to a state employment agency 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.360 as they were looking for work. She recalled them having 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.640 used the name Grimes and apparently was able to identify 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.960 them from their photos. But again, the photos we're circulating 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.240 nationwide at this point, but nobody at the state employee 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:41.160 agency recalled meeting them. Apparently, No, it's just this one woman. 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:47.880 And then on January fourteen, Patricia's friend Sandra's parents got 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:51.520 to phone calls around midnight. I'm not sure if it 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:55.680 was the midnight the four teen, their midnight, I don't 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:57.840 know which it does not that it really matters that much. 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:00.600 But the first call was just silence, and then the 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.600 second one was placed about fifteen minutes later with a 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.760 quote frightened and depressed unquote voice on the other end 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.359 asking is that you Sandra? Is Sandra there? But the 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.600 caller hung up before Sandra's mother could get Sandra. Um. 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:18.359 But the mom is pretty sure that it was Patricia calling. Okay, 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.159 So that's all the sightings. So I suspect there's a 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.960 lot of power of suggestion in a lot of these settings. 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:27.479 I would say that's true. Yeah, and the vast majority 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.480 of them, probably, if not all of them. Yeah, that's 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:34.440 not unusual, No, especially when like a nationwide hunt is 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:41.600 one on January twenty second, nineteen fifty seven, so almost 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:47.840 a month after the girls did Yeah, almost a month. Yeah, yeah, 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.960 you're right. Okay. Uh. Leonard Prescott, who was a local 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.640 construction worker guy, was driving along German Church Road, which 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:00.840 is like two hundred feet away from being in Willow Springs, Illinois. 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.400 And Willow Springs is a small village that's like west 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.320 of Chicago, which I'm sure as part of Chicago today. 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.080 It's not, actually, it's still not. No, it's still a village, 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.920 and it's about twenty miles southwest of McKinley Park down 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.479 or Interstate fifty five. I don't remember what they call 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.080 it in Chicago. We call it, we would call it. 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:24.680 If Leonard is driving home and spots some naked bodies 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.520 on the side of the road behind the guardrail, he didn't. 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:29.880 He actually said he thought they were mannequins. At yeah, 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:34.359 he just saw some like naked like whatever's there human forms, 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.000 And so he kept driving home, and the more he 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.520 thought about it, the more he thought, I should go No, 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:41.960 I I had better go back and look. So he 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:47.240 collected his wife, Marie and from home. She wasn't a 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.520 collector's item, no, no, no, ha ha No. He got 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:52.239 her from home and they both got in the car 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:54.280 and drove back to where he thought he had seen 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.919 these mannequins. And then somebody had Dniel switcheroo and they 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.480 weren't mannequins. They weren't mannequins anymore. Um No, it was 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:04.080 their naked bodies. And actually apparently the site of it 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:08.400 was so horrific to Marie that she fainted on site. 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:13.159 So they, of course, being good human beings, called the authorities. 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.160 Leonard actually was very wise to do what he did 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.200 by not just stopping. If he if I'm driving along 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:21.040 and I'm near my home and I think I see 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:23.560 a couple of naked bodies on the side of the road, 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:26.680 I'm gonna go get somebody to find them with so 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:31.000 that I am not spotted being The person next to said, oh, yeah, 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:34.800 especially because you know these are the pre cell phone days, 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.679 so then you have to like leave to call somebody. 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:40.200 So if you're spotted standing there and then you leave, 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.240 even if you're going to call the authority, that is 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:46.560 going to look probably not great. Right, Well, it looks 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.679 a little hanky, But then that's why you don't doddle 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:53.719 you get that phone call. Yeah. Yeah, So both girls 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:59.120 were naked and dead. That probably goes without saying. Barbara 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.200 was laid over on her left side with her legs 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:06.840 slightly drawn up to her body, and Patricia was laying 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.720 on her back covering Barbara's head kind of laying on 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.640 to basically her body was partially on top of the Yeah, 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.080 and it was deemed really likely that they had just 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:18.639 been dumped there from a passing car. Yeah, they were 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:20.480 just dump there's a bit there's a rail and it 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.280 slopes down kind of it does look that. I'm sure 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:28.160 the car stopped, but yeah, they were pretty unceremony ceremonious 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.960 about it. It's one of those metal guard rails, you know, 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:33.480 the ones. It's got two humps in it. Yeah, and 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.240 there's there's the photograph. There's a photograph of it out 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:38.920 of the web, although it's extremely low res. But you 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:40.680 can't see it if you really wanted to. But yeah, 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.480 you don't really need to. We've already described it. We have. Yeah, 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.560 and you know the Wikipedia article at the bottom, you 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.000 know that always says like suggested posts, and one of 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:53.040 them is murders and one of them is dump jobs, 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.560 which is the thing app like like the accepted nomenclaitcher 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:04.280 for this, So there you go. Experts disagree heavily on 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:08.920 the time of death for the Grime sisters. The experienced 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.320 pathologists who performed the initial autopsy said that, due to 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.159 the contents of their stomachs and the likely portions of 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.960 their last known meals, they likely died within twenty four 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:22.920 hours of their disappearance um but even more likely within 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:26.119 five hours of leaving the theater, so they would have 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:33.200 died late December or early December nine. Sounds about right, 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:37.040 unless unless they're their kidnappers, like fed them the exact 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:39.520 same you know, which was some eggs, are not egg 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:43.080 some potato dish and I can't remember what it was now, Yeah, 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:45.159 it was just some and then they had popcorn, and 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.359 then I think they had a chocolate chip cookie and 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:51.320 they had popcorn, and yeah, I mean it's not something 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:53.040 that would have been terrible. I mean, it's not as 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:55.240 though they had dinner, you know, right then it would 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:59.200 have been pretty well digested stuff in their stomach or 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.600 their inners, and yeah. Um. But at the time, the 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:05.880 chief investigator to the coroner's office, whose name was Harry 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:12.200 gloss Uh, he disagreed adamantly. He was sighting the bodies 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:15.800 and they were found with a thin layer of ice 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:19.359 on them, and he argued that the girls would have 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:23.000 had to have been alive until at least the seventh 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:26.000 of January, given that only after the seventh there was 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:29.840 enough snowfall to react with any latent body temperature to 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:34.200 melt the snow to refreeze into a little sheet of 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:37.680 ice on their bodies. I kind of questioned his analysis, 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:41.160 but I actually think that there might be a little 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:44.720 bit logic to it, and he might have an interesting angle. 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:45.960 And I don't know if you want to talk about 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:47.800 this now or if this is going to come up 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:50.119 in theories at all. You always ask that question, like 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:52.880 I know what you are going to talk about. Uh, yeah, 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:55.040 we can talk about it. I'll just mentioned briefly before 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:58.800 we talk about it that there also wasn't sufficient snowfall 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:02.320 or other ring to hide the bodies until after the 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:05.240 seventh not that that means that they had to have 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:09.000 died there, except for that maybe because their official cause 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:14.119 of death was secondary shocked due to exposure. So you know, 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:17.119 the theory is that they died from exposure after being 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:21.080 dumped there, and that you know, glosses theory is like, no, 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:23.240 there would have been no way that nobody saw these 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:26.320 bodies for a month if they were laying here, and 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:29.480 also that ice wouldn't have formed on them. So so 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:31.200 the only the only thing I'm going to say is 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:36.240 that he makes the assumption that the ice has to 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:40.320 form because of latent body heat. It is possible that 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:45.639