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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought you by your weird uncle

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Speaker 1: who always brings candy that tastes kind of funny. Instead,

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Speaker 1: it's brought you by crime Con. That's right, crime Con.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't heard us talk about it before, Crime

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Speaker 1: Con is gonna be June nine through eleven of this year,

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Speaker 1: and it's gonna be at the JW. Marriott in Indianapolis.

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Speaker 1: There's gonna be a lot of famous folks there, crime commentators, investigators.

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Speaker 1: There's even gonna be some sniffer dogs that we get

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Speaker 1: to talk to. I really want to find out what

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Speaker 1: those dogs have to say. There's gonna be other podcasts

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Speaker 1: there that deal with crime just like us, so there's

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Speaker 1: gonna be great panels. I think we're gonna be on

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Speaker 1: a panel, so you should definitely come. As a special

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Speaker 1: Sideways twenty to get off your registration fee. So go

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Speaker 1: to crime con dot com and register today and we

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Speaker 1: can't wait to see you guys in June. Thinking Sideways.

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Speaker 1: I don't know stories of things we simply don't know

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Speaker 1: the answer to. Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways, the podcast. I'm Devin joined as usual by

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Speaker 1: also known as Squinty Quincy McGhee over there. Yeah, oh sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm now going by squirrel. Oh, Squinty and squirrel. Just

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Speaker 1: to case you're wondering, I'm I'm just messing with Devin

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Speaker 1: by squinting, and it really hard suspiciously calling you squinty.

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Speaker 1: You didn't give that away at all. Yeah, Today we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about mystery, not cooking. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about a mystery that was suggested in two thousand fourteen

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Speaker 1: by Hunter and then by literally every single one of

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Speaker 1: you since then. So what was that very beginning all

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Speaker 1: the time ago. Yeah, world, it's true and yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: so we're going to talk about the disappearance and subsequent

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Speaker 1: murder of the Grimes sisters this year, this year, this week.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we can do it all year. I mean

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Speaker 1: we are doing it this year. It is happening this year.

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Speaker 1: Sorry to be a good episode, you guys, just getting

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Speaker 1: ready for it. So if you don't know, quick overview

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Speaker 1: is that on December nineteen fifty six, Barbara and Patricia Grimes,

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Speaker 1: who are aged fifteen and thirteen, respectively, disappeared, and then

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Speaker 1: they were found dead on January nineteen fifty seven in

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Speaker 1: a shallow ditch on the side of the road near Chicago. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is two Chicago shows in a row for you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's actually to Silas Jane episodes in a row in

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Speaker 1: a row. Yeah, you know. Oh, we'll get those ratings up. Guys,

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Speaker 1: got a pump it. Let's back up a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Give a little contexts about Chicago. When Chicago founded, well,

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Speaker 1: Chicago was founded in when Columbus sailed the ocean blow right,

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Speaker 1: that's how that. Okay, No, for seriously, the Grime sisters

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Speaker 1: lived with their mom, their older brother and sister, and

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Speaker 1: their younger siblings. There were a lot of siblings, and frankly,

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Speaker 1: I've never seen exactly how many kids were in this family,

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Speaker 1: but they were one of there were two of many.

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Speaker 1: There were at least five. I think there were at

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Speaker 1: least five to Yeah, and they were you know, working

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Speaker 1: class neighborhood called McKinley Park, which is kind of south

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Speaker 1: and west of downtown Chicago. It's not a suburb, it's

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Speaker 1: the neighborhood of Chicago. I get. I mean, I just

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Speaker 1: take for granted that people understand how big cities work.

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Speaker 1: But I us. It's possible that they don't. It's that,

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Speaker 1: you know, most of them have kind of neighborhoods within,

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Speaker 1: have their own names, and you can even just google

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Speaker 1: like McKinley Park, Illinois and it comes up. I did

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Speaker 1: it today. Yeah, and it's probably the address officially probably

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Speaker 1: is Chicago. It is in Chicago. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: that going on right here. Yeah, solidly in Chicago. It's

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Speaker 1: about halfway to Midway Airport on m I ninety. It's

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Speaker 1: not on MY ninety, but in that sort of way

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Speaker 1: if you're familiar with the Chicago area at all. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: the girls who were predictably for the time into the

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Speaker 1: King Mr Elvis Presley himself, Yeah and um. On the

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Speaker 1: night of their disappearance, the girls were attending a double

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Speaker 1: feature showing of the Elvis film Love Me Tender, And

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Speaker 1: apparently who cares what the second film was, because it

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Speaker 1: was Loved Me Tender. I think the second was the

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Speaker 1: Elvis this film Loved Me to Death. I don't think so. No,

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Speaker 1: it was a movie where Elvis played the serial killer.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember now. I don't know. I'm not an

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Speaker 1: aficionatto of Elvis films, and may surprise you to know,

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Speaker 1: given that I was not a teenage girl in the fifties,

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Speaker 1: which is weird. It is weird that I wasn't. It's true.

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Speaker 1: This was actually their fifteenth viewing of this film, apparently. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of times. You know, young people I've

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Speaker 1: noticed have a much bigger tolerance for repetition. Yeah, better

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Speaker 1: capacity typically, though you you observed that in younger people

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Speaker 1: are in single digits of the age. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I want to watch Thomas the Train again kind of repetition,

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Speaker 1: not go to the movie theater. Well, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: the time, it's the equivalent. Baby. Well, I was going

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Speaker 1: to say, it's you know, fifteen and thirteen is a

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Speaker 1: time of certain sexual awakenings. And you know, when you've

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Speaker 1: got Elvis in this love film, I can understand how

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Speaker 1: maybe that would be and you do a lot, and

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Speaker 1: maybe that was just a good way for them to

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Speaker 1: get out of the house. That's exactly what I was

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Speaker 1: going to say. So they I think they walk to

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Speaker 1: the theater. Every report says they got to Nobody knows

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Speaker 1: how they got to the theater, but they only had

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Speaker 1: two dollars and fifteen cents on them. Although if you

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Speaker 1: see on some web pages two dollars and yeah, either way,

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Speaker 1: it's like about twenty three dollars adjusted for inflation today's money. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and obviously this is keeping in mind also that you know,

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Speaker 1: the cost of film, even adjusted for inflation, has gone

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Speaker 1: up quite dramatically. You know, when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to date myself too much, but movies

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Speaker 1: in general, even first round ones, were not as exorbitantly expensive,

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Speaker 1: even adjusted for you know, yeah, I personally blame Michael Bay. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean a Star Wars actually Star Wars. Actually they

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Speaker 1: actually bumped ticket prices for the original Star Wars and

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Speaker 1: and and every movie after that was yes, what Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so twenty three dollars was not nothing, but it wasn't

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a ton of money, especially for both of them.

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Speaker 1: It was about enough for them to for their film. Yeah, sorry,

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Speaker 1: the equivalent of three dollars. So the two fifteen is

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Speaker 1: enough for them to pay for their movie tickets, they're

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Speaker 1: double feature tickets, get some popcorn for themselves, and then

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Speaker 1: catch the bus home. Um, but probably not enough for

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Speaker 1: them to have also taken the bus there. But maybe

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Speaker 1: the movie started. It was like a seven o'clock start

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Speaker 1: or something like that, wasn't it. It was a seven

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Speaker 1: thirty start, and then there was the intermission at yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then the then the double feature ended at like

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Speaker 1: eleven eleven thirty ish, which is is late um night. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't think it probably was. It was, you know, December.

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Speaker 1: They were probably on break. Yeah, it's kind of hard

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Speaker 1: to imagine sitting through a double feature today. I did

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Speaker 1: it all the time as a kid. I So the

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Speaker 1: last time I saw double feature was on my sixth

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Speaker 1: For my sixteenth birthday, my mom and I took a

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Speaker 1: road trip and we were went to a drive in

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Speaker 1: and we saw a double double feature of Finding Nemo

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Speaker 1: and Pirates of Caribbean. So if that ages me, there

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Speaker 1: you go dates me. Now, you know exactly how land

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Speaker 1: because nobody knew until this moment exactly how old I was.

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Speaker 1: I am super old. Yeah. Yeah, Okay, So they the

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Speaker 1: girls did arrive safely at the movie theater, sure we

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Speaker 1: know that for sure. They actually were seated in front

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Speaker 1: of a friend, Dorothy and her younger sister. Dorothy reports

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Speaker 1: the girls were enjoying the film. They got popcorn around

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Speaker 1: at intermission time, you know, let's all go to the

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Speaker 1: lobby to know that they were enjoying the film. Yes, suspiciously.

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Speaker 1: All she could see was the back of their heads.

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Speaker 1: I presumed they were enjoying it together, all of them.

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Speaker 1: And then their mother, her name was Loretta, had been

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Speaker 1: told by the girls, we're just gonna go see the one,

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Speaker 1: the first movie, and then we'll come straight home. But she,

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Speaker 1: being their mother, knew better and said they're gonna stay

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Speaker 1: for the whole thing, So she was expecting them home

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Speaker 1: around eleven. Girl. Also, I think you just get caught

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Speaker 1: up in it, you know, you just, um, you think,

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Speaker 1: oh my friends are here, it's upcorn, and you think

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Speaker 1: my ask just doesn't quite hurt enough. Yes, it through

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Speaker 1: another one. Yeah, but midnight rolled around, and um, the

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Speaker 1: girls still weren't home, and so Loretta started to get

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Speaker 1: worried and sent her two elder children to wait at

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Speaker 1: the bus stop for the girls. And apparently three busses

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Speaker 1: went past, none of them carrying the sisters. So at

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Speaker 1: about two fifteen am, Luretta called the cops and reported

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Speaker 1: the girls missing. From there, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: reported sightings, and we're just gonna go ahead and talk

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Speaker 1: about all of them. Yeah, I'm not sure how credible.

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Speaker 1: A lot of them are not very credible, but we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about all of them anyway. Well, what

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Speaker 1: the hell? Yeah, why not? Yeah, got to fill this

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Speaker 1: episode with Yeah, frankly, after this, well, let's tend to

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Speaker 1: roll the credits. Just kid, I'm just kidding. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot to talk about here. So that night, quote unquote

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Speaker 1: numerous people. It's never or I've never seen how many

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Speaker 1: people other than their friends that they sat in front of. Well,

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Speaker 1: numerous people reported seeing them on a c T A bus.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, sorry, and I was still back in the

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Speaker 1: theater in Chicago Transit Authority. Yep, heading east, which would

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Speaker 1: have been the opposite. It would have been heading home

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Speaker 1: for them, Yeah, kind of home. Yeah, so that's probably accurate. Yep.

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Speaker 1: But they may or may not have gotten off that

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Speaker 1: bus at Western Avenue at eleven o five pm, which

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Speaker 1: was only about halfway to their house on the bus.

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Speaker 1: Two teenage boys reported that they were driving in a

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Speaker 1: neighborhood and saw the two girls at about eleven thirty

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Speaker 1: heading east on thirty five Avenue in good spirits, jumping

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Speaker 1: out of doorways at each other and giggling that which

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Speaker 1: that would have been about two blocks from their house.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like they that I'm I'm happy to accept

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Speaker 1: that they almost made it home then almost made it home. However,

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Speaker 1: an L train conductor said that he saw the girls

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Speaker 1: get off a train at the glen View stop that night.

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Speaker 1: Glen View is a suburb of Chicago to the north

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Speaker 1: near Palatine, which, of course you might remember Palatine from

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Speaker 1: a recent episode. And um, it's about twenty miles northeast

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Speaker 1: of their home in McKinley Park. So that one I'm

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Speaker 1: a little questioning there. I was gonna say, we should

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Speaker 1: stop for just a quick second here because we're going

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Speaker 1: to have a little bit of this going on, and

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Speaker 1: just say, we've got two girls, fifteen and thirteen, their

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Speaker 1: teenage girls. They're of average height, one's got short hair,

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Speaker 1: one's got longer hair. They're blonde. Were they blonde? Light

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Speaker 1: brown hair? It's always hard to tell because they're black

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Speaker 1: and white photos. So I was never sure. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean they're, but they're you know, there's it's not as

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Speaker 1: if they have any crazy distinguishing, you know, unique features

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Speaker 1: about them. They look like most young teenage girls all

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Speaker 1: the time exactly, which is why I think of all

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Speaker 1: of these sidings were not necessarily which is why I

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Speaker 1: wanted to point that out. I would agree with that.

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Speaker 1: And they were kind of short. Barbara was the oldest.

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Speaker 1: She was five ft one I heard, and Patricia was

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Speaker 1: five ft three, even though she was two years younger. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Barbara was tremendous. Yeah, no, I mean my height. Yes. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Also the night of a security guard claimed that two

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Speaker 1: girls asked him for directions. Well, I guess it was

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Speaker 1: like early in the morning on the twenty nine, It

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Speaker 1: was about two am. He said that the girls asked

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Speaker 1: him for directions, and he was stationed at Central and

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Speaker 1: Lawrence at the bus station there, which is about fifteen

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Speaker 1: miles away from their home at McKinley Park. On the

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Speaker 1: evening of December twenty nine, classmate of Patricia reported seeing

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Speaker 1: Patricia and two unidentified girls, neither of whom wore Barbara

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Speaker 1: walked past the diner that she was having dinner at.

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Speaker 1: The diner was Ian McKinley Park, And UM, I don't

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Speaker 1: really know what time that was. I presumed dinner ish time.

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Speaker 1: That question. It's hard to say. By the way, she

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Speaker 1: reports that immediately that evening, I believe so. Yeah, although

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Speaker 1: I don't think she you know, turned to her parents

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Speaker 1: or anything and said, look, I don't know if she

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Speaker 1: push her parents or what, but she did report that

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Speaker 1: pretty quickly. On December, at two days after the disappearance,

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Speaker 1: at five forty am, the owner of a restaurant called

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Speaker 1: the D n L claimed to have seen both girls

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Speaker 1: with one of his dishwashers named Benny Bedwell. Reports are

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Speaker 1: that Patricia was appeared to be drunk or sick. Um.

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Speaker 1: She was so kind of messed up and disoriented that

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Speaker 1: she wasn't able to walk without help. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: sick or drunk. She needs She was staggering and kind

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Speaker 1: of needed help walking. A clerk at the Claremont Hotel

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Speaker 1: claimed that the girls briefly stayed at his hotel. There's

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Speaker 1: no dates associated with the stay, but I presume it

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Speaker 1: was before the New Year. And I also wasn't able

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Speaker 1: to find the location of the Claremont Hotel. As far

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Speaker 1: as I can tell, the Claremont Hotel is like a

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Speaker 1: chain today today, and the only one that comes up

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Speaker 1: when you Google is in California, So I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the one in California, but I wasn't able

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Speaker 1: to find any historic data about where it was. It's

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Speaker 1: a little weird. You know, your clerk at a hotel

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Speaker 1: and these two young girls come up and want to

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Speaker 1: want a room. It's well funny you should say that,

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Speaker 1: because we'll talk about that in a second. But I'm

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Speaker 1: just trying to do these chronologically, so pause on that

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Speaker 1: comment for a second. On January one, there were reports

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Speaker 1: that the girls were on a C T A train

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Speaker 1: on Demon Avenue. Demon runs north south pretty much the

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Speaker 1: whole length of Chicago, so I'm I'm not totally sure

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Speaker 1: where where hand me a dart. On January second, a

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Speaker 1: hotel clerk at the Unity Hotel said he refused two

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Speaker 1: girls notching their description a room because they were too young.

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Speaker 1: And this hotel clerk is reported picked the girls out

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Speaker 1: of a photo, like identified them from a photo and said,

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Speaker 1: those are the two girls that I denied to. Of course,

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Speaker 1: their photos had already been put published in the paper. Yes,

258
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Speaker 1: oh yeah. On January three, three employees say the girls

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Speaker 1: were in their department store listening to Elvis albums. It

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Speaker 1: was a Krusky department store, which are now called kmarts.

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Speaker 1: You know, actually, Untell, you research the story for us.

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Speaker 1: I did not know that kmart had evolved. I didn't either.

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Speaker 1: I didn't either, And Steve found the location of that.

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Speaker 1: I in my research wasn't able to find. The closest

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Speaker 1: one I could find was in Michigan. But that is wrong.

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Speaker 1: So it's do you remember what the it's downtown, downtown,

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Speaker 1: downtown Chicago. Yeah, it's about a mile and half northeast

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Speaker 1: of where the south and the north legs of the

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Speaker 1: Chicago River meet, makes sense, So it's kind of in

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Speaker 1: that city city center area. Yeah, downtown, Yeah. Yeah. There

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Speaker 1: was a report in Nashville of the girls from a

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Speaker 1: woman who said that she met them at a bus

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Speaker 1: station and went with them to a state employment agency

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Speaker 1: as they were looking for work. She recalled them having

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Speaker 1: used the name Grimes and apparently was able to identify

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Speaker 1: them from their photos. But again, the photos we're circulating

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Speaker 1: nationwide at this point, but nobody at the state employee

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Speaker 1: agency recalled meeting them. Apparently, No, it's just this one woman.

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Speaker 1: And then on January fourteen, Patricia's friend Sandra's parents got

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Speaker 1: to phone calls around midnight. I'm not sure if it

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Speaker 1: was the midnight the four teen, their midnight, I don't

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Speaker 1: know which it does not that it really matters that much.

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Speaker 1: But the first call was just silence, and then the

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Speaker 1: second one was placed about fifteen minutes later with a

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Speaker 1: quote frightened and depressed unquote voice on the other end

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Speaker 1: asking is that you Sandra? Is Sandra there? But the

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00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,600
Speaker 1: caller hung up before Sandra's mother could get Sandra. Um.

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Speaker 1: But the mom is pretty sure that it was Patricia calling. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So that's all the sightings. So I suspect there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of power of suggestion in a lot of these settings.

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Speaker 1: I would say that's true. Yeah, and the vast majority

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Speaker 1: of them, probably, if not all of them. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: not unusual, No, especially when like a nationwide hunt is

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Speaker 1: one on January twenty second, nineteen fifty seven, so almost

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Speaker 1: a month after the girls did Yeah, almost a month. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're right. Okay. Uh. Leonard Prescott, who was a local

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Speaker 1: construction worker guy, was driving along German Church Road, which

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Speaker 1: is like two hundred feet away from being in Willow Springs, Illinois.

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Speaker 1: And Willow Springs is a small village that's like west

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Speaker 1: of Chicago, which I'm sure as part of Chicago today.

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Speaker 1: It's not, actually, it's still not. No, it's still a village,

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Speaker 1: and it's about twenty miles southwest of McKinley Park down

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Speaker 1: or Interstate fifty five. I don't remember what they call

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Speaker 1: it in Chicago. We call it, we would call it.

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Speaker 1: If Leonard is driving home and spots some naked bodies

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Speaker 1: on the side of the road behind the guardrail, he didn't.

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Speaker 1: He actually said he thought they were mannequins. At yeah,

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Speaker 1: he just saw some like naked like whatever's there human forms,

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Speaker 1: And so he kept driving home, and the more he

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Speaker 1: thought about it, the more he thought, I should go No,

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Speaker 1: I I had better go back and look. So he

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Speaker 1: collected his wife, Marie and from home. She wasn't a

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Speaker 1: collector's item, no, no, no, ha ha No. He got

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Speaker 1: her from home and they both got in the car

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Speaker 1: and drove back to where he thought he had seen

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Speaker 1: these mannequins. And then somebody had Dniel switcheroo and they

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Speaker 1: weren't mannequins. They weren't mannequins anymore. Um No, it was

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Speaker 1: their naked bodies. And actually apparently the site of it

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Speaker 1: was so horrific to Marie that she fainted on site.

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Speaker 1: So they, of course, being good human beings, called the authorities.

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Speaker 1: Leonard actually was very wise to do what he did

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Speaker 1: by not just stopping. If he if I'm driving along

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Speaker 1: and I'm near my home and I think I see

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Speaker 1: a couple of naked bodies on the side of the road,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go get somebody to find them with so

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Speaker 1: that I am not spotted being The person next to said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: especially because you know these are the pre cell phone days,

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Speaker 1: so then you have to like leave to call somebody.

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Speaker 1: So if you're spotted standing there and then you leave,

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Speaker 1: even if you're going to call the authority, that is

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Speaker 1: going to look probably not great. Right, Well, it looks

332
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Speaker 1: a little hanky, But then that's why you don't doddle

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Speaker 1: you get that phone call. Yeah. Yeah, So both girls

334
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Speaker 1: were naked and dead. That probably goes without saying. Barbara

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Speaker 1: was laid over on her left side with her legs

336
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,840
Speaker 1: slightly drawn up to her body, and Patricia was laying

337
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 1: on her back covering Barbara's head kind of laying on

338
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,640
Speaker 1: to basically her body was partially on top of the Yeah,

339
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 1: and it was deemed really likely that they had just

340
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 1: been dumped there from a passing car. Yeah, they were

341
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 1: just dump there's a bit there's a rail and it

342
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: slopes down kind of it does look that. I'm sure

343
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:28,160
Speaker 1: the car stopped, but yeah, they were pretty unceremony ceremonious

344
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 1: about it. It's one of those metal guard rails, you know,

345
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,480
Speaker 1: the ones. It's got two humps in it. Yeah, and

346
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Speaker 1: there's there's the photograph. There's a photograph of it out

347
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 1: of the web, although it's extremely low res. But you

348
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 1: can't see it if you really wanted to. But yeah,

349
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 1: you don't really need to. We've already described it. We have. Yeah,

350
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Speaker 1: and you know the Wikipedia article at the bottom, you

351
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 1: know that always says like suggested posts, and one of

352
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 1: them is murders and one of them is dump jobs,

353
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Speaker 1: which is the thing app like like the accepted nomenclaitcher

354
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Speaker 1: for this, So there you go. Experts disagree heavily on

355
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Speaker 1: the time of death for the Grime sisters. The experienced

356
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 1: pathologists who performed the initial autopsy said that, due to

357
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,159
Speaker 1: the contents of their stomachs and the likely portions of

358
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,960
Speaker 1: their last known meals, they likely died within twenty four

359
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,920
Speaker 1: hours of their disappearance um but even more likely within

360
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 1: five hours of leaving the theater, so they would have

361
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 1: died late December or early December nine. Sounds about right,

362
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 1: unless unless they're their kidnappers, like fed them the exact

363
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 1: same you know, which was some eggs, are not egg

364
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 1: some potato dish and I can't remember what it was now, Yeah,

365
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,159
Speaker 1: it was just some and then they had popcorn, and

366
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 1: then I think they had a chocolate chip cookie and

367
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: they had popcorn, and yeah, I mean it's not something

368
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 1: that would have been terrible. I mean, it's not as

369
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Speaker 1: though they had dinner, you know, right then it would

370
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 1: have been pretty well digested stuff in their stomach or

371
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 1: their inners, and yeah. Um. But at the time, the

372
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Speaker 1: chief investigator to the coroner's office, whose name was Harry

373
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Speaker 1: gloss Uh, he disagreed adamantly. He was sighting the bodies

374
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 1: and they were found with a thin layer of ice

375
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 1: on them, and he argued that the girls would have

376
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 1: had to have been alive until at least the seventh

377
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: of January, given that only after the seventh there was

378
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: enough snowfall to react with any latent body temperature to

379
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 1: melt the snow to refreeze into a little sheet of

380
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 1: ice on their bodies. I kind of questioned his analysis,

381
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 1: but I actually think that there might be a little

382
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: bit logic to it, and he might have an interesting angle.

383
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you want to talk about

384
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Speaker 1: this now or if this is going to come up

385
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,119
Speaker 1: in theories at all. You always ask that question, like

386
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 1: I know what you are going to talk about. Uh, yeah,

387
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: we can talk about it. I'll just mentioned briefly before

388
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 1: we talk about it that there also wasn't sufficient snowfall

389
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: or other ring to hide the bodies until after the

390
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: seventh not that that means that they had to have

391
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: died there, except for that maybe because their official cause

392
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 1: of death was secondary shocked due to exposure. So you know,

393
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: the theory is that they died from exposure after being

394
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: dumped there, and that you know, glosses theory is like, no,

395
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: there would have been no way that nobody saw these

396
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: bodies for a month if they were laying here, and

397
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 1: also that ice wouldn't have formed on them. So so

398
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 1: the only the only thing I'm going to say is

399
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: that he makes the assumption that the ice has to

400
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: form because of latent body heat. It is possible that

401
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 1: the girls died of some of exposure somewhere and some

402
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: creep oh kept him in his basement or something, and

403
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: then well just somewhere. But then they're they're not they're

404
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: not frozen, So they're in his car, they're kind of

405
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: that room temperature, and then when he dumps him outside

406
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: at that point, they're going to have some residual heat

407
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: from the environment they were in prior to being deposited

408
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: over the side of the guard rail. That's the only

409
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,479
Speaker 1: thing is that it's like he just he said they

410
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: had to be alive because of but he might have

411
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: hit on something. He might have just been looking at

412
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 1: it in the wrong way. Well, there is the reason

413
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: I don't buy that question is that there wasn't actually

414
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: a lot of any decomposition to speak of. So if

415
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: they've been kept around a room temperature for that length

416
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: of time they would have been in, the bodies would

417
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: have been in much much worse shape than they were in,

418
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 1: which is why I kind of support the theory that

419
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: they were murdered sometimes like right after they disappeared and

420
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: just kept in a deep prieze somewhere like a meat

421
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: locker or something, and then eventually taken out and dumps,

422
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, and probably probably waiting for the first snow

423
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: and then and just saying, hey, this would be an

424
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: opportunity time to dump the bodies because they'd be covered

425
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: with snow for a while. Yeah, but I do have

426
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: that I do agree with Gloss that it's a little

427
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 1: weird they words. But to Joe's point of somebody keeping

428
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 1: them in the deep freeze, the bodies were so frozen

429
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: that they had to be taken to the Emmys and

430
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: let's sit around for a while the frost. No, no,

431
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: I don't agree with that. At least a day, I

432
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah, it is just interesting that there was

433
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: that thin layer of ice that formed on their skin.

434
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 1: And again, you know, for anybody who's thinking this, because

435
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 1: my first reaction was like, well, yeah, if they were

436
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 1: kept in a freeze, of course there would be ice

437
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 1: on their bodies. No, no, yes, there would be ice

438
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: on it. But the ice crystal is not an ice sheet. Yeah,

439
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: and the ice sheet could have only formed in their

440
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: current positions. And if they were just sumariously dumped, you know,

441
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: they had been transported and dumped somewhere, so to that.

442
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: But same time, I mean, you know, I mean we

443
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 1: have around here we get a little snow and then

444
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 1: it thaws a little bit and it freezes again, and

445
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: then we'll get that are all the time around here

446
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: freezing about yeah about everywhere? Yeah yeah, yeah, so but

447
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,959
Speaker 1: I still think, yeah, they probably died shortly after they

448
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: were kidnapped and then and as to the cause of death,

449
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: I read one analysis by a guy who claims to

450
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: have been working on the case is a cold case

451
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: for well, I said that one of the things you

452
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: don't hear about is that there was actually bruising on

453
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: both of their cheeks. There was, which is consistent with

454
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: somebody put a clamp in a hand over their faces

455
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: and smothering them to death. Yeah, there was a lot

456
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: of bruising on their bodies, but apparently no obvious fatal wounds. Yeah,

457
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: I know, this is just a little bruising on their cheeks,

458
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: which would be consistent with just somebody forcefully holding his

459
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: hand over their face. Yeah, which is totally possible. Barbara's

460
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: body had three puncture wounds in like her chest area

461
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: that were likely from an ice pick, which I'm not

462
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: sure why we're not classifying that as obvious fatal wounds,

463
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: but hey, I'm not a corner so okay. But the

464
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: girls of note, the girls didn't have anything to indicate

465
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: intoxication of any time, including poisoning. The bodies, like I said,

466
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: had some bruising, and they did have rodent bites. It's

467
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 1: not clear when the rodent bites happened, though most people

468
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: think it probably happened in the time that they were dumped. Well, yeah,

469
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: it's it was slight, it was slightly wooded, and you're

470
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: gonna have rats and raccoons and all those little critters

471
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: who were going for the soft bits first. Yeah, and

472
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 1: they did kind of go I was gonna say they

473
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 1: went for the faces first. And I will also say

474
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: that while neither of the girls reportedly had signs of rape,

475
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: at least Barbara likely had sex around the time of

476
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: her death. Yeah, apparently that was. There was no evidence

477
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: of any forcible rape and either want of them. And

478
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: Barbara did have sperm in her body, so that could

479
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: just meet she had sex with her boyfriend a few

480
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 1: days before. It's hard to say, yeah, it could have been. Yeah,

481
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: it's yeah, yep. And you were thinking necrophilia there for

482
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: a second, weren't you. I was just trying to do

483
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: the math of like how long duced that they can

484
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: live as long as like five days in a woman's body.

485
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: But that's probably that's but I also don't know, But

486
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: I also don't know how, like how you would know

487
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: necessarily how old I mean she died, especially at that time,

488
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, the dating of it, and if she's

489
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: been dumped and sitting there for twenty some days, I

490
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: mean that, especially in the fifties, it becomes very hard

491
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: to get very exact of Oh well, this is was

492
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: obviously two days old before. Yeah, it would be almost impossible.

493
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: I think that they found some, but god knows when

494
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: it got there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. In May of nineteen

495
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: fifty seven, So five months after their bodies were found,

496
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: Loretta got a call from a man who said that

497
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: he knew who had killed her daughters and that he

498
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: had helped undress them. The caller also told Loretta something

499
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: that she found very startling. Quote, I know something about

500
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: your little girl that no one else knows but you,

501
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: not even the police. That's never been in the papers.

502
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: The smallest girls toes were crossed on both her feet.

503
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: Barbara was the smallest girl, and apparently, yes, her toes

504
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: were crossed on both her It was a deformity, and

505
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: everybody agrees that was not something that anybody other than

506
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: the killer or you know, anybody who knew her personally,

507
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: but like what yeah, but like what a seriously deranged troll,

508
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: Like that's a troll. Yeah, but people like there are

509
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: tons of people like that, and this she got multiple

510
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: callers calling her and taunting her for quite a while.

511
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: It was it wasn't she you know, you hear the

512
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: stuff of I recognized his voice, but there was From

513
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: what I've read in the old newspapers, she can at

514
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: least three distinct weirdos calling her and saying god awful stuff. Yeah,

515
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: but this one did stand out because it, I mean,

516
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: this person clearly knew something about her daughter that not

517
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people knew. I mean, like realistically, I

518
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: remember in my gym classes, like I couldn't tell you

519
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: if any of my girls that I went to gym

520
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: class with had like weird toes like you're not it's

521
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: one of those. It's one of those deleos. And we

522
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: all know this. We've been to high school or gym class.

523
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: You could go your entire time and nobody would ever notice.

524
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: But if one jerk does notice and they pointed out everybody,

525
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: and everybody's going to be like looking at your toes

526
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: from that on. Yeah, but it does sound like I mean,

527
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: I think this was widely reported, right that, like no

528
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: one knew this, so that was why. And I try,

529
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: I guess maybe I believe the best in people, but

530
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: I believe that if everybody in school knew that she

531
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: had cross toes, at least one of the friends would

532
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: have comported and said no, no, no, everybody in our

533
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: high school knew, like everybody knew about that. They wouldn't

534
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: necessarily just say I mean I would if I if

535
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: somebody said and only three people knew about this thing,

536
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: and I was like, no, we all knew about it,

537
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: I would tell that person just to like change the scenario.

538
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: Though it's entirely possible, as at our our troll caller

539
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: worked for the emmy's office or worked at the funeral home,

540
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: or a friend of a friend of a friend forgot,

541
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: you know, knew somebody who got drunk and and let's

542
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: slip something that worked in one of those places. I mean,

543
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: there are some very simple, not directly involved ways, and

544
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: not just the high school theory, that that information could

545
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: have slowly seeped out and somebody grabbed it and was

546
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: such a guess, but it's like even weirder to me that,

547
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: like an Emmy would be like, oh yeah, you know

548
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: that double murder case that we found. You know what

549
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: was weird about that that girl had cross toes? You know,

550
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: like that's weird to me too. People people sit around

551
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: and talk about their work and they talk about their case,

552
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: and this is the case. The thing that nobody ever

553
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: talked about was. I mean, it happens. I mean, it's

554
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: not supposed to happen, but people are human, and details

555
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: slip that a lot of that stuff gets circulated more

556
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: widely than you think. I mean, her doctor was probably

557
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: where the condition, and who knows, a night janitor might

558
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: have rooted around the people's medical files, you know what

559
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: I mean, God knows. Yeah, that's true, especially if they're

560
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: the kind of person to call a woman who just

561
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: had two of her daughters murdered. They're probably not, you know,

562
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: worried about. Yeah, but I do think I think it

563
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: could have been or his accomplice or somebody who just knew. Yeah,

564
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: maybe it wasn't even maybe he wasn't even there. Yeah, Yeah,

565
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: but I think that that one call is pretty weird. Yeah,

566
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about why that call is weird in

567
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: a little bit. Okay, when we get to theorious crush

568
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: your toes. Yeah, Gordon, Rachel, Paula and Emerald, they all

569
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: make it seem so easy. You watch them climb into

570
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: that teeny little box and think, how do they do it?

571
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: How do they make that little place seems so big

572
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: and magical and at the same time make delicious meals

573
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: appear well? The answers are pretty simple. First, they're not

574
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: actually in your television, that's an illusion. And second, they

575
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: have other people helping them out behind the scenes. And

576
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: now you can too. With my busy life, I don't

577
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: have time to be running back and forth to the

578
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: grocery store. And that's why home Chef is my new

579
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: best friend. Home Chef offers easy to prepare meals that

580
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: are delivered straight to my door and there's no headaches

581
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: and no hassles. And with home Chef, I get to

582
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: cook like a five star chef whenever I want Their

583
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: meals or mouth watering and preportioned ingredients are so easy

584
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: to prepare it only takes me about thirty minutes. Just

585
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: last night, I made Home Chef's chicken Marsala and it

586
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: was amazing and super easy to make. Home Chef's weekly

587
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: meal delivery system fits my crazy schedule, and that's why

588
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: I keep coming back crafted delicious meal that you're guaranteed

589
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: to go wild for with home Chef. Go to home

590
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: chef dot com slash sideways now and you get thirty

591
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,760
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592
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: slash sideways for that thirty dollars in free els. Make

593
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: it look like you're doing it all on your own.

594
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: We won't tell, and we're back. Now, let's talk about theory. Well,

595
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: there's a lot of theories in this one well kind

596
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: of yeah, and one thing, one thing that I'm just

597
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and say right off the bat, and

598
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: that's the thing that has bothered me about this case

599
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: and probably why I didn't really want to do it

600
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: for a while, is that there's a lot of theories

601
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: about like who's the murderer and when were they murdered,

602
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 1: but never like why or what happened to them or

603
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: anything like that. Especially yeah, and especially since it sounds

604
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: like it's likely they were within two blocks of their

605
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: home when they got abducted, Nobody ever talks about was

606
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: it you know, by did they know them? Did they

607
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: willingly go with this person? You would think so too.

608
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: But I'm just gonna go ahead and like start off

609
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 1: by saying that frustrates me more than anything on this case,

610
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: that there's no nobody seems to care about that. They

611
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: just seemed to care about who did it. But we're

612
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: gonna talking about the first theory, um, And I'm just

613
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: gonna I'm just gonna toss it in here because you'll

614
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: see it everywhere. Obviously it's a bad theory, but it

615
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: was the prevailing theory until January, um, and that was

616
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: that the girls had just run away. You remember there

617
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: was that one sighting quote unquote sighting in Nashville in

618
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: the record store No Nashville. Uh yeah, So there was

619
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: a very popular theory at the time that the girls

620
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: had actually run away to just go either live with

621
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: Elvis or like him or emulate his lifestyle. So they

622
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 1: had reportedly run off to Tennessee to live like Elvis

623
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: when he got bored with him and murdered him. Maybe, yeah, yeah,

624
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: that's good theory, Joe. I like that theory. It's not

625
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: out a good theory. Um. So I'm not really sure

626
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: what the people thought the motive was but apparently that

627
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: was a big theory. It was such a big theory,

628
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: in fact, that Graceland at the time released a statement

629
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: on the nineteenth of January unfortunate timing that says, if

630
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 1: you are good Presley fans, you'll go home and ease

631
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: your mother's worries. I had heard even that, and of

632
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: course this is again time goes by and things get

633
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: twisted up. I heard Elvis himself one on the radio

634
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: and actually pled with the girls to go home. I've

635
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: not seen that. I suspect that's not true, but maybe. Yeah,

636
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: it's hard to say about that. I don't know. I

637
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 1: like Joe's idea that the king did ye. Those girls

638
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: did not look like small pills, so I don't know

639
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: why he would have done that. Okay, so next theory

640
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: is murder. Yeah, well maybe they ran away, but obviously

641
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 1: something foiled their plans and murdered them instead. Yeah, something,

642
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: something or someone someone. We're going to go in my

643
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: estimation least likely to most likely it is how I

644
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: have arranged these Yeah, and again we don't know they

645
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: were kidnapped to be raped, or just somebody just wanted

646
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: to kill people. For Yeah, yeah, so we'll we'll address

647
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: that a little bit as we go through this. My

648
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: I think least likely, Yeah, Walter Krantz, you don't think

649
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: Elvis is at least likely? We just did him, didn't we. Ha.

650
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: Krantz was a fifty three year old man who called

651
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: the police on January fift to report that he had

652
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: a dream that the bodies of the girls were in

653
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: the Santa Fe Park, which was about a mile and

654
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: a half from where they were actually found. And also

655
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: they were discovered like a week later, so you know,

656
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: he called them a week before and said the girls

657
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: are here, and they found them a mile and a

658
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: half away a week later. So the police thought, uh,

659
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: this is suspicious. But Krantz told the police that he

660
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: should listen to them because psychic powers ran in his family.

661
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: There you go. The police, apparently, like really seriously did

662
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: interrogate him a number of times. Well, hell yeah, I

663
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: was really psychic. He should have seen that. Should have

664
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: seen it coming. I'm not psyching, and I would have

665
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: seen it. Yeah, yeah, I was. Even if I had

666
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: had that dream, I would have kept my mouth shut. Yeah,

667
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: I think, you know, he was just trying to be helpful. Maybe,

668
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: but actually it's it's a it's a known fact though

669
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: that actually killers do sometimes, actually quite often try to

670
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: insert themselves in investigation. Yeah, it's almost like Joe is

671
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 1: trying to insert himself in the narrative of killers inserting

672
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,959
Speaker 1: themselves into stories. Exactly. I'm always trying to just horn

673
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: in on your narrative here. I've actually seen him in

674
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: the bookstore writing his name into the text on the stories,

675
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: and sometimes I'm actually trying to assert my body right

676
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: into the bookshelves. It does. Yeah, by the way, just

677
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: so you don't get the wrong idea, we're talking like

678
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: head first, so you know, the police interrogated him and

679
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: will ultimately decide. But now he's just got he's just

680
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: comes from a family of psychics. He just knew, so

681
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: he just happened to guess location and call them and

682
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: he wasn't involved at all. So I agree with them,

683
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: actually shut and actually he might have been right, and

684
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: maybe the bodies were down there, and maybe the groundskeepers

685
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: there didn't want to deal with it and they moved bodies. Yeah,

686
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: I don't. Next is Silas Jane remember him, good old side,

687
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: Remember Silent? I talked about silence New context of the

688
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: Indiana dude. Yeah, disappearances literally three weeks ago. Yeah, talked

689
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: about Silence Jane. He's not really good suspect, unfortunately for

690
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: this one. And I'm honestly not even really sure how

691
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: he's connected to the case other than being kind of

692
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: a hugely disgusting human pile of trash. It was very subtle,

693
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: thank you, Yeah, um, sorry, Silence, if you're listening, I

694
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: guess I don't know what you want for me, Steve.

695
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: It's usually it's kind of through this really tenuous connection

696
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: with Kenneth Hansen, um who The connection to Silas Jane

697
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: and Kenneth Hansen is not tenuous, but the connection with

698
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: Hansen in this case is tenuous, and that Hanson isn't

699
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: even named as a suspect. It's just Silas Jane. But

700
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: Hanson was a pedophile and they were both connected to

701
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: the Peterson slush shirt case. We went through this pronunciation

702
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: conundrum before, and I don't think even Silence Jane actually

703
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: had much to do with those murders. Hands well know

704
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: that the murders supposedly took place at his stable, but

705
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: he wasn't there when that right, And I think that

706
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: what people are saying is that it could be a

707
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: similar situation because I remember something about you know, approaching

708
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,479
Speaker 1: the girls to see horses. Is what is how people

709
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: equate this, except that typically for a guy like Hansen,

710
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: there's there's predilection towards young boys or young girls. So

711
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: it's weird that he would be literally really playing both

712
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: sides of the Yes, that's the weird part about him.

713
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: I don't think it was him, although it's it's a

714
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: funny story about it though. It's like, you know, somebody

715
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: comes to here and says, hey, I'm murdered three young

716
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: boys and you on your property, and silence Jane is

717
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: says saying okay, and Rady a watch of the police.

718
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: He just says, okay, get rid of the bodies. That

719
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: he burned his stable down. You have to cover any evidence.

720
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's there's a true friend. It doesn't rat

721
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: you out. Yeah, well, I was gonna say silence. Jane

722
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: had a lot to hide in his life, so this

723
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 1: it wasn't, you know, burning down his stable was kind

724
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: of like, oh great, I'll get rid of all the

725
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: other evidence. Yeah, I guess some insurance money's no problem. Perfect.

726
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: The other reason I don't like Kenneth Hanson as a

727
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: suspect is his m O was to approach like usually

728
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: young men, young boys, not even men. And we're talking

729
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: like and talking about like in the context, hey do

730
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 1: you want to go see some beautiful thoroughbred racehorses? Or hey,

731
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: would you like some employment? Whatever? Those are usually his

732
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 1: his things. So approaching the girls at eleven o'clock on

733
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: a winter night and say you want to job? I mean, what,

734
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: what the hell? That's not the I agree it's it's

735
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 1: not a good theory. So let's move on, um to

736
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: Benny Bedwell. Yes, it sounds familiar, right. We were talking

737
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: about fightings. Yea. Yeah. He was the dishwasher that was

738
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 1: reportedly seen with the girls a few days after their disappearance.

739
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: You know when um, when Patricia was just so drunk

740
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: she couldn't walk. Yeah. Yeah. Benny's real name was Edward

741
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 1: Lee Bedwell. He was just called Benny Um and he

742
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: was twenty one years old at the time of the disappearance.

743
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: He was reportedly illiterate or even maybe borderline mentally retarded,

744
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: and he was a drifter from Tennessee who apparently slightly

745
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: resembled Elvis. I don't see the resemblance. But I do

746
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 1: see he was attractive. He was an attractive young man,

747
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: but I don't think he looks like the King. He

748
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: looked like the King in the way that like most

749
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: dudes from that age look kind of like the King. Yeah,

750
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: they all wore their hair and the clothes and kind

751
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: of had the affected face, you know, and the and

752
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: they died, they all had black hair. You know. By

753
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: the way, is it just me or does Elvis half

754
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: the time looked like he had just had botox? You

755
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: ever not said his face is always rather slack in

756
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: the early years of home kind of kind of mobile. Yeah,

757
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: a lot of botox. I was gonna say, it's almost

758
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: like he did a lot of drugs or something that could.

759
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 1: You know, I've seen that old Willie Nelson. He always

760
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: looked like a robot to me. I saw him on

761
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: TV show second and I thought, you know, you know,

762
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: he's not real. He's not put a mannequin. There as

763
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: the only the only part of this that's moving at all.

764
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: It's just his lips there are just like, well, there's

765
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: the hand that's got the joint back and forth, and

766
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 1: that is definitely not so Benny, Oh yeah, back to

767
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: my sorry. The theory goes that the sisters were with

768
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: Benny and another man on the seventh and then after

769
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: January January, after seven days of drinking and feeding the

770
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: girl's hot dogs. That's a quote, a direct quote of

771
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: what the police alleged, um Benny did, and then they

772
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,479
Speaker 1: quote beat the girls to death unquote after the girls

773
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 1: refused further sexual advances, and then dumped their bodies on

774
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 1: the seventh. They know, they were drinking and having a

775
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: good time partying with the girls for seven days, and

776
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: then after the girls were like, oh wait, we don't

777
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:21,919
Speaker 1: want to do this anymore, they got mad and beat

778
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: them to death and then dumped their bodies. There are

779
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: a number of problems with this theory. First off, the

780
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: police did manage to get as signed confession from Benny

781
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: that said, yes, this is exactly what happened. I fed

782
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: them hot dogs and everything, but he was, as previously mentioned,

783
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: illiterate and claims he was coerced, which I think is

784
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: highly likely. He was very stand at the time. Oh yeah, yeah. Second,

785
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: there was like no evidence of the girls being beaten

786
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 1: to death. Um They're autopsies provided no evidence that they'd

787
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: have hot dogs or even alcohol. And third, Benny had

788
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 1: actually been clocked into work and like seen at work,

789
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 1: Uh not dishwashing, but another job that he was working.

790
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: Um when the girls were likely abducted. Gloss, You remember

791
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: Harry Gloss. Yeah, well, he was in a medical examiner.

792
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 1: He was an investigator for the medical examiner. He was

793
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: sure it was Benny. Um. And he insisted that there

794
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: had been evidence of extreme sexual violence and abuse as

795
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: well as intoxication or as well as intoxicins so drugs

796
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: and alcohol, both in both Barbara and Patricia's systems, and

797
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: that that that evidence was being withheld for their mother's

798
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: well being or benefit or something like that could have

799
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: been with hell, just because the police like to withhold

800
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,879
Speaker 1: certain bits of evidence to just Yeah, but I don't

801
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 1: think to the detriment of the narrative of you know,

802
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: if they have if they have a suspect and custody

803
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: and his story, his story matches, they're not going to

804
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 1: say no, no, no, that didn't happen. We're not saying

805
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: this because we're protecting the family's honor. Yeah, they're not

806
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 1: going to do that. Yeah, it was actually um close.

807
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: They said, Okay, you know you're lying to retract your story.

808
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: You're dragging this innocent man's name through the mud, and

809
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: Close said no, I'm not going to, and so they

810
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 1: fired him. Yeah, and I agree. I don't think Benny

811
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: did it. I think he was an easy card scapegoat. Um.

812
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: I think he was just a guy who happened to

813
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: be the unfortunate landing block of some people. Well they,

814
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 1: I'm sure police who cleaned up their act a lot

815
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: since those days, at least hopefully so. But that that

816
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: kind of thing of like, you know, just badgering somebody

817
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: until he finally breaks down and agrees to sign something,

818
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 1: and they have sneaky ways of doing that, like and

819
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: I've heard all kinds of stories about well, all right,

820
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: so we're going to write out a statement of what

821
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: you said here. This is not a confession. It's just

822
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 1: a statement, so you need to sign it. And the

823
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: course of him being illiterate, like you say, well, and

824
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: they could have literally they could have said, yeah, this

825
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: is just um, this is just a receipt for your stuff. Yeah, yeah,

826
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 1: you know. I mean like if he was so illiterate

827
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: that he literally didn't you know, it was just like

828
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: scribbles on a page. And I don't know how illiterate

829
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: he was. You know, there's definitely a spectrum of illiteracy.

830
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: But literally he could have been looking at something. They

831
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: could have told him it was different, and he just said, okay,

832
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 1: I'll sign it. It's also a known thing that people

833
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: will admit to things that they didn't do because they

834
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: are sound like they're admitting too, because they've been inadvertently

835
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: given clues of what to say. You know, it's not

836
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: a direct leading Okay, so now say you took her

837
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 1: down the street, and then it's not that direct, but

838
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: they you know, investigators, but accidentally, I mean, it happens accidentally.

839
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: Well but even in this case, the story they were

840
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: leading him to had no evidence to back it up.

841
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: So like, what's going on. That's a hard thing. So

842
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,839
Speaker 1: I think, Benny, that's pretty well safe. Yeah, I agree. Yeah,

843
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: well this is disappointing. Okay, next, next suspect theory theory

844
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: suspect suspect exactly, That's what I would call. It is

845
00:47:54,360 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: Max Fleeg, which is German for volume, is it? So

846
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 1: I don't speak Germany. Max was seventeen years old at

847
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: the time of the disappearance. I've heard about Max. One

848
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: of the things I've never heard about him. Is how

849
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: exactly he came to be a suspect to begin with?

850
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: What he did? What else got him in trouble, I

851
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 1: think is what is what's got him. Yeah, as a suspect,

852
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: I would agree with that, although he failed a polygraph

853
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 1: test then reportedly admitted to kidnapping and murdering the girls. Um,

854
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: so I'm not sure how he grabbed the interest of

855
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: the police initially. I think he may have just been

856
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: a local deviant, especially given what happened later in his life,

857
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 1: just one of the usual suspects. Yeah, but I mean

858
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: the police had to have known this, so I don't

859
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 1: know why they did it. But it was at the

860
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: time illegal to give a polygraph test to a miner.

861
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: But he was a miner, So I don't know why

862
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: they did that, but they did, and so they had

863
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 1: to let him go and you know, get rid of

864
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: all of the quote unquote evidence that they had collected

865
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: during that time. Well they had no evidence. Yeah, there's

866
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: literally no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to link Max to

867
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: this case. Max might have done it, He might have.

868
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: He was later convicted and imprisoned for the murder of

869
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old girl who rebuffed his advances and

870
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 1: he just tossed her body into a suff Hello, Yeah,

871
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 1: no he didn't. He's not the one who suffocated someone

872
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: with a pillow. He choked her. There's a there's a

873
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 1: bunch of similar things, but there was a bunch of

874
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: really skeezing air who else this particular area of Chicago

875
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: at the times? Yeah, I get them a little mixed up. Yeah,

876
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 1: it's easy to do. I think of this suspects so far,

877
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 1: Max is the strongest. Well that's good because we're going

878
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: down the list of least likely to most likely. So

879
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 1: it's good that you think that he's more likely than

880
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 1: the others. But I think I might have a couple

881
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: that maybe even more likely real. Next, he's a guy

882
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: named Charles Melquist. He looks a bit like Elvis too,

883
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: or like this character from LazyTown that I don't really

884
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: want to talk about. How I know what a character

885
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: from LazyTown looks like? What LazyTown is just I don't

886
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: want to talk about it. It's not a video game,

887
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: but I don't want to talk about it. Googling LazyTown

888
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: right now. A year after the Grime sisters were found,

889
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 1: a fifteen year old girl named Bonnie Lee Scott was

890
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: found naked tossed on the side of the road a

891
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: few miles from where the Grimes sisters had been found,

892
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 1: and on November six, nineteen, Loretta Grimes got a second

893
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: call from a man she identified as the same caller

894
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: who knew that Barbara had the cross toes, and the

895
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: caller told Loretta, I committed another perfect crime. This is

896
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: another one those cops won't solve, and they're not going

897
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: to hook it on Bedwell or Barry Cook. We'll talk

898
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 1: more about that. We have Benny Bedwell, Barry Cook we

899
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: haven't heard about yet. Most people link this call to

900
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: mal Quist because he admitted to murdering Um Scott, and

901
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: the murders are pretty similar. Um. I'm not clear on

902
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 1: the timing of this because it's possible that milk Wist

903
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: wasn't custody when the second call was placed. The stories

904
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 1: of the murder charge and the second call to Lauretta

905
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: are side by side on the November nine issue of

906
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,720
Speaker 1: The Chicago Trip. This is why I don't entirely trust

907
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: the story. I would agree with that Malquist suffocated Scott

908
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: with a pillow in his car, when she rebuked his

909
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: sexual advances and then stripped her body naked and dumped

910
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: her on the side of the road, just you know,

911
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: like I said, a couple of miles away from the

912
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,280
Speaker 1: where the Grimes were dumped. Some investors say it's possible,

913
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: as Joe was mentioning that the Grime sisters were suffocated

914
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: and that's how they died, either by pillow or by

915
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: hand and then dumped so or frozen and dumped. I mean,

916
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: I guess it would make sense if maybe, you know,

917
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:58,439
Speaker 1: we're talking as sexual deviant, we're saying like maybe Patricia, wait,

918
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 1: which one was the one that had had sex Barbara?

919
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: Maybe Barbara was like you know what, Okay, fine, yes

920
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: we'll have sex. It's you know, not rape, or she

921
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: I don't know she was dating him, or like I

922
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: don't know something. And then he was like, all right, Patricia,

923
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: it's your turn, and she was like no, and then

924
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 1: he just you know, flew into a rage and killed

925
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: them both. I don't know. The problem I really have

926
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 1: with this is that mal Quest actually wanted to be

927
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: given the electric chair for murdering Scott. He he seemed

928
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 1: really remorseful, and if he really did like want to

929
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: be given the death penalty. Why would you not just say, oh,

930
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: also I killed two other girls to really just cement

931
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: your sentence. The problem with mil Quist is that he yes,

932
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: he did smother Scott, but he also he smothered her,

933
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: he dumped her body. He then came back later on

934
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 1: and cut her head off. Did he clearly mutilated the

935
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 1: body two or three times the same? Yeah, which is weird.

936
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: And yet for the crime sisters there, other than what

937
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:13,399
Speaker 1: the local animal population did to their bodies, we don't

938
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 1: really I mean, cutting the head off is pretty severe.

939
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 1: It is, and I'm sure that the idea was cut

940
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: the head off and we'll take it, we'll hide it,

941
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 1: and I'll never be able to figure out who it was.

942
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: Stupid thought process of a nut job. But I mean,

943
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: if he was going to do that once you think again,

944
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: you would think that he would have said, oh, I'd

945
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: better take their heads, so I better go back for

946
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: their Well, there's some escalation there, right, and especially if,

947
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 1: especially if you've done it before and left their heads on,

948
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: or maybe you did it before and you thought the

949
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: local rodents, would you know, rightly kind of mess them

950
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 1: up and it didn't happen enough so the next time

951
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: you think, I know, I'll take the head. But if

952
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 1: we're going to say escalation, then it seems like going

953
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: for two right out of the gate, going from two

954
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: to one. You know too, taking on two girls is

955
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: even if they're teenage girls, so much bigger task than

956
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 1: taking on one teenage girl. You guys remember three weeks

957
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: ago when we were talking about, like how maybe a

958
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: serial killer killed the three women in the Indiana Dunes,

959
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 1: And I was like, why would you do three as

960
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: your first try? And your guys were like, because why not?

961
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: Because there are three of them, they're just right there.

962
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 1: But I mean, I think there's that same idea. You know,

963
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: it could just be that, well, they were two girls

964
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: together or and maybe the problem is that we know

965
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: too much of the quote unquote standard pattern that we're

966
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: falling prey to that. But it just seems weird that

967
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 1: he would pick up these two girls and go for

968
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,399
Speaker 1: it and then and then suddenly, you know, months later,

969
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 1: just go after one and severely mutilate the body. It

970
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:55,919
Speaker 1: just seems very different to me. Well, I think crime

971
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: of an opportunity. There are times, yeah, there's that, I mean,

972
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: like that, like the look Indiana dudes thing, It's like,

973
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 1: this is a beautiful opportunity. Even if there are three

974
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 1: of them. Was so what they're at my mercy because

975
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: I got him on a boat down the lake. There's

976
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,800
Speaker 1: no witnesses. It's a little different than trying to, you know,

977
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,919
Speaker 1: abduct somebody off the streets, you know, into your car. Yeah,

978
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 1: but I mean, I don't know, it's it's hard to tell.

979
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: I think Scott was dating milk West at the time

980
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 1: when he murdered her, So that wasn't an abduction. Do

981
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 1: you remember how old was he was, like twenty three

982
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,320
Speaker 1: or twenty five. It was a completely different world. I

983
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 1: forget that there's you know, a fifteen year old girl

984
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: dating twenty year old guys, totally normal. Well, I don't

985
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 1: know if it was normal, It just wasn't, you know,

986
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: it wasn't as frowned upon it still happens today. I mean,

987
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: it's not as I still think it's weird. Yeah, I agree,

988
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 1: but but you know, so who's to say that, you know,

989
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,479
Speaker 1: maybe Barbara was seeing him, or maybe you know, maybe

990
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: one of them knew him, And yeah, it's not it's

991
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: not insane to think. And also, if are walking home

992
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: in the middle of winter and it's cold and it's late,

993
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: and somebody they know drives up and says, do you

994
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: guys want to ride? And they say, sure, it's just

995
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 1: a couple of blocks, we'll take a ride from that cute,

996
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: hunky college boy. And then oops, it turns out he's

997
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 1: a psychopath and murders them. Happens. I mean, you know,

998
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: it's not exactly an abduction. I mean, it is an abduction,

999
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 1: but it's not like this huge Yeah. Well, and that

1000
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 1: brings me to something that we talked about before. When

1001
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: you were talking about the timeline. There was a sighting

1002
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 1: of the girls having gotten off of the bus early,

1003
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,240
Speaker 1: and what you were just saying of like getting getting

1004
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: a picking up, thumbing a ride in some way or

1005
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 1: shape or form. I had been wondering why would they

1006
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 1: get off of the bus, except that you said, I

1007
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,720
Speaker 1: think the timing was about twenty minutes before they should

1008
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 1: have arrived at home, if I remember that correctly, A

1009
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: ballpark girty to forty minut Okay, so I don't know

1010
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 1: how much time. I think you guys have spent a

1011
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: fair amount of time on buses in public transportation. And

1012
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 1: what made me think about why would they get off

1013
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: of the bus. Is if they had to go to

1014
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 1: the bathroom. You know what I've done that, I've I've

1015
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 1: gotten on the bus, and fifteen minutes later, I'm like,

1016
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: I have half an hour till I have to get there.

1017
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: I'm getting off of this next stop. I will find

1018
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: someplace that's open, I will use their restroom, and I

1019
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: will get back on the next bus that comes by. Well, well,

1020
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:33,439
Speaker 1: you know, if it's far enough that it's a half

1021
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: hour ride, I'm willing to wait to the twenty minutes

1022
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: to have relieved my bladder, so that that's That was

1023
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: one of the things I thought when we were talking

1024
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,439
Speaker 1: about or there or there was somebody creepy, or maybe

1025
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: they were riding the bus with somebody they knew, maybe

1026
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: there was some place along the way to stop and

1027
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 1: get ice cream or god knows what ye or maybe

1028
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: the bus just rereaked of yearn and or maybe they

1029
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: didn't have to be home. I remember, you know, being

1030
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: a teenager and knowing like, Okay, this is when I

1031
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 1: have to be home, and I'm enjoying myself not being

1032
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: home around the four or five other kids and my

1033
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: single mom. You know who I'm sure is lovely and giving,

1034
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 1: but also like your teenager, so like, well, you know,

1035
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 1: maybe it was as simple as it's a nice night out.

1036
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of snow, it's kind of fun.

1037
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 1: We don't need to be home for another half hour.

1038
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: Let's just get off and walk absolutely all right, Um,

1039
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 1: last suspect, final suspectin suspect final answer, final answer, M

1040
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 1: Barry Cook. Yeah, Berry, I don't know some you know

1041
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: that's that's a different barrier. That's very white. Okay, okay,

1042
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: never mind, does it look anything like very good? He doesn't. Yeah.

1043
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: Marry Cook actually served time in prison, not for the

1044
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: grimes murders Dy, not for the Silas Jane connected murder

1045
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 1: of three boys Peterson Swissler murder, nor the murder of

1046
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 1: Margaret Gallagher, nor the murder of Judith May Anderson, though

1047
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: he is likely connected to all of those things. He

1048
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 1: spent nine years in the Joliet jail, and he was

1049
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 1: released on September twenty in eighteen sixty seven. He has

1050
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: since married and has kids, so you will see a

1051
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 1: lot of blogs and articles online who refused to name him. Currently. Yeah,

1052
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: they think that like the kids should be spared. Fifty

1053
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 1: years later, it is. That's true. Cook was actually never

1054
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 1: ever convicted of any crimes. But trial, how did he

1055
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 1: how did he wind up in prison if he was

1056
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 1: not convicted of it? He was, he was sentenced. He

1057
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 1: pled guilty to this. He wasn't ever convicted of any

1058
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: of the murders. He wasn't you know, anything like that.

1059
00:59:56,440 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 1: He pled guilty to rape and assault to rape. Um.

1060
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: And he was sentenced to one to fourteen years in

1061
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: Statesville prison. Um. And he was released early for good behavior.

1062
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 1: Statesville doesn't sound like a real place. Statesville sounds like

1063
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: the Sims or something. Yeah. Yeah, it's like cookie Ville,

1064
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: minimum minimum security, orphanage. Yeah. Um. But apparently Barry Cook

1065
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 1: passed a lie detector test for the Grimes murders and

1066
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 1: the Peterson Schlussler murders, so the police decided he was

1067
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: not guilty of the CRIMEA So there you go. Yeah,

1068
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 1: that's um. Well, I think wait, wait, wait you you

1069
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: just like dropped him and walked away like he was

1070
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: a bad microphone, Like wait, why why is he the

1071
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 1: last on your least to most likely suspect list? Well,

1072
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 1: because he was awful. I mean he I think he

1073
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 1: definitely was involved in all of those murders. In some way,

1074
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 1: I think he was a serial killer and he just

1075
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 1: managed to not get caught. He got caught for like

1076
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 1: rape charges, but he was a violent sexual deviant who

1077
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 1: has a long history of being very closely connected to

1078
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 1: a number of cases that are all very similar to

1079
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: each other. They all, most of them except for the

1080
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 1: one with the silas Jane one. You know, they're all

1081
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 1: young women, like thirteen to fifteen years old. They were

1082
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 1: all suffcated and dumped naked on the side of the road.

1083
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 1: Somehow he managed to go straight and or either that

1084
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: he was just really good. He got back out of prison,

1085
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: has had a family to continue to kill. Yes, I

1086
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 1: don't know. I have no idea they see. That's that's

1087
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: why that's why I'm asking, Because I don't know the

1088
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 1: fact that this guy is I'm going to use your term,

1089
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: linked to all of these other murders but never caught,

1090
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 1: and yet he was investigated. It smacks a little strange

1091
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 1: as if he is the usual suspect. It's almost like

1092
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 1: gloss is that it's almost as if somebody similar to

1093
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 1: him and said, you know that Barry Cook, he he's

1094
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: a bad apple. We got to get that guy. We've

1095
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: got to get him for something. And hey, we've got

1096
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: a dead girl. Bring Barry Cook in. Yeah, you know,

1097
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: we're gonna put him in the line. Enough, she didn't

1098
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 1: pick him out. Oh another dead girl. Bring Barry Cook in.

1099
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 1: You know, he's the most wanted of the local places.

1100
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 1: The trick is that with all of these murder I mean,

1101
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 1: you know, the Grimes sisters, there's no evidence. There was

1102
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: no evidence on their bodies, right, There's nothing to link anybody,

1103
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 1: which is why you can't really say Berry Cook was

1104
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 1: not actually seriously linked too much of anything, because there

1105
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: wasn't any evidence in any of them, which almost, you know,

1106
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: in my mind, almost speaks more than if there was evidence.

1107
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, if there was evidence, that speaks a lot.

1108
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: But I also think it's equally suspicious that there happened

1109
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: to be no evidence on any of these bodies. But

1110
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 1: I do agree that it is. It does seem odd

1111
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 1: that he managed to spend some time in jail, like

1112
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 1: nine years in jail, and then you know, get out

1113
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 1: and get married and have kids and lead an otherwise

1114
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:06,840
Speaker 1: normal life. Yeah, as far as we know, well as

1115
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 1: far as not well, yeah, I mean, but if he

1116
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 1: was out still hunting around and and you know, slumming

1117
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 1: a little bit, going out bucks. It's I've had a

1118
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:18,520
Speaker 1: couple of drinks, let's go kill a girl. There should

1119
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 1: have been more bodies dropping. Well, this is not something

1120
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 1: you should say, but maybe he picked up some good

1121
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 1: tips in his stay at Juliet good point. Yeah, I

1122
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: don't know. I've never understood what it was that he

1123
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:38,920
Speaker 1: did to initially become a suspect in this. I totally

1124
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 1: agree to then, because it's never listed. Yeah, you know,

1125
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 1: it's never it's never said. It's just again because people

1126
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 1: are trying to protect him and his family. I will know.

1127
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 1: What I mean is that I've never seen which case

1128
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: he first showed up in to then be able to

1129
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 1: try and link him backwards in time, in other words,

1130
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 1: to build the timeline of, oh, he was hauled in

1131
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 1: for stealing the governor's car or something like that, and

1132
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 1: and that's when they said, you're on the bad track, boy,

1133
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 1: you gotta clean up like I did. I want to.

1134
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 1: I want to build the timeline of him out. And

1135
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:15,320
Speaker 1: I've never tried a little bit. It's a tricky thing

1136
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: because you know, if you're gonna like do a crime,

1137
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 1: like this, which can be opportunity or can be something

1138
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:25,000
Speaker 1: you know, very planned or whatever. No matter what, there

1139
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 1: are a lot of them are going to look about

1140
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 1: the same. You're gonna abduct a girl, maybe rape or

1141
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: maybe not, but in the in the in the interim,

1142
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: wind up strangling or dumping or by the side of

1143
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 1: the road somewhere. So that's the same. M Oh, they

1144
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 1: look a lot alike. And you could say, wow, these

1145
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 1: must have been committed by the same guy. Well not

1146
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 1: necessarily at all, different people, very similar to acts that

1147
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 1: can appear. But I will also say that we are

1148
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 1: talking about Chicago and it doesn't have like no crime,

1149
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 1: so it wouldn't. I mean, you know, just because heard

1150
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 1: of them doesn't mean yeah. But we can also say

1151
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 1: it at that time in Chicago there were a lot

1152
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 1: of people moving through that area who could have been

1153
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 1: almost like, who is the truck driver that was leaving

1154
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 1: prostitutes across the interstate system of this country and the

1155
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 1: happy happy face killer. No, not that one. No, this

1156
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 1: was like fifteen or twenty years ago, and I can't

1157
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 1: remember who it is. It doesn't matter something. It was

1158
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:30,320
Speaker 1: actually a truck driver who killed people all around the

1159
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 1: interstate Highway system. There was a happy face killer. Well no,

1160
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:35,919
Speaker 1: I'm thinking you're just thinking of the smiley face. Yeah,

1161
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: there's also a happy face killer. But but my point

1162
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:43,480
Speaker 1: is is that there were people flowing through Chicago. Ever,

1163
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:47,439
Speaker 1: no pun intended, so not the major shipping have of course. Yeah,

1164
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 1: totally yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'll just finished by saying

1165
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 1: it definitely wasn't dr Hodel. No, I don't think it

1166
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 1: was dr Hodel either. I do suspect it was probably

1167
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: somebody in you mm hmm. I suspect that. Other than that,

1168
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: I don't a clue. Yeah, so many good suspects. But

1169
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: I also I think they probably did die in the

1170
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 1: NY timeline of you know, twenty four hours after disappearance,

1171
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: and then they were held you know somewhere captain captain

1172
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:26,200
Speaker 1: an ice box somewhere. Yeah that well yeah, that's uh well, guys,

1173
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 1: hang on, listen, we think who can we hang this on? Okay,

1174
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:31,760
Speaker 1: forget it. I don't have nothing. You want to wind

1175
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,760
Speaker 1: it up? I do? Okay, ready, sure, okay, you can

1176
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: find some links to our research. We'll probably throw at

1177
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 1: least one old timey news article in there. Um, there's

1178
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 1: a lot of me the YEP that will be found

1179
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 1: on our website. The website is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.

1180
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: You can listen to us there. You can also listen

1181
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 1: to us on iTunes or you can stream us or whatever.

1182
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 1: If you can subscribe if you haven't already, and if

1183
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 1: you can on Rate and Review always best. Yeah. You

1184
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 1: can find us on social media if you want to

1185
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 1: have a conversation. Where on Facebook, We've got a page

1186
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 1: in a group, so like the page and join the group. Yeah. Um,

1187
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter. We are thinking Thinking Sideways.

1188
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: Lots of so much fun stuff there. We also have

1189
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 1: a subreddit and it's just Thinking Sideways. You can email

1190
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 1: us as well. We are Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail

1191
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: dot com. You can buy merchandise if you won't. Um,

1192
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 1: we have some pretty cool stuff. There's links on the sidebar,

1193
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 1: you know, mugs, stuff like that. Um sure, Thinking Sideways

1194
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: Murder Kit that's perfect, and Thinking Sideways Serial Killers Manual. Huh.

1195
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: That show has been working on for the last thirty

1196
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 1: years of it's written in very tight handwritten scripts, so

1197
01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:56,920
Speaker 1: it's a little hard read. A lot of stuff, a

1198
01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 1: lot of stuff those five pages. Yeah, that's true, all

1199
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:03,480
Speaker 1: of that, all of that having been said, um, I

1200
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 1: think we're going to get out of here alright, well

1201
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 1: until next week our REVOI. So we have got to

1202
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:13,479
Speaker 1: work on that guardrail for the state that you can't

1203
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: pitch a body over. I don't think it's gonna really

1204
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 1: need to happen that. I don't think it's going to happen.

1205
01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 1: They'll just go to us. They'll just go to a

1206
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: road that doesn't have guardrails. Bye, guys,