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Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. You're

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Speaker 1: listening to Software Radio special operations, military news and straight

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Speaker 1: talk with the guys and the community. Over good. Everyone,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to Software a Radio, Software Radio on time

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Speaker 1: on talket. And that's a very apt description of who

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Speaker 1: we have here with us today. So we have some

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Speaker 1: great guests with us today. And it's a book that

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Speaker 1: I guarantee that all of our listeners and readers out

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Speaker 1: there are going to want to to check out. And

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Speaker 1: it's called never Mind We'll do it ourselves and it's

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Speaker 1: about this is it's a true joint mission. I mean

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Speaker 1: you have Air Force c I A Army guys. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think every other organization inside the United States government

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Speaker 1: was involved in one point or another. And this and

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Speaker 1: this was about the the first drones that we used

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Speaker 1: U A v S drones however you wanted to call it.

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Speaker 1: But um, how we got them armed for the very

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Speaker 1: first time. And it wasn't an easy process and it

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Speaker 1: wasn't overnight, but these guys got it done and kind

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Speaker 1: of record time. We have Alec Bierbauer and Mark Couter

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Speaker 1: with us and they just wrote the book and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about all of this. Before we do that,

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Speaker 1: I want to welcome all you guys to the podcast

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Speaker 1: and thanks for taking the time with us today. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: We're eager to be able to tell the story and yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's our pleasure because yeah, let's uh fill our listeners in.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's go back to the beginning how this this

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Speaker 1: program got off the ground, and it was all the

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Speaker 1: way back to the Clinton administration, and there there was

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Speaker 1: I guess some heartburn about assets on the ground in Afghanistan,

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Speaker 1: which isn't an easy thing anyway, But can you fill

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Speaker 1: our listeners in on some of the background on this. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it, and uh so this is Ali talking

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Speaker 1: and the background it is really started from. It was

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Speaker 1: a presentation or a briefing that then uh C I

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Speaker 1: a director, George Tennant did too, then President Bill Clinton

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Speaker 1: and Sandy Burger was the National Security Adviser at the time,

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Speaker 1: and Richard Clark was the counter terrorism coordinator for the

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Speaker 1: National Security Advisor and well, none of us were in

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Speaker 1: the room for that presentation. Uh afterwards, it was clear

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Speaker 1: that didn't go particularly well. That you know, the topic was,

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Speaker 1: you know, we need to do more in Afghanistan. We

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Speaker 1: need to do more to find uh Bin Laden and

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Speaker 1: al Qaeda, which at that time was not a particularly

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Speaker 1: well known UH problem set. So we're talking right at

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Speaker 1: the end of and UM a memo at the time,

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Speaker 1: a highly classified memo got sent UH to the CIA

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Speaker 1: and to the Pentagon, UH with some some very clear

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Speaker 1: objectives of UH take CIA authorities UH, and that that

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Speaker 1: being you know a little bit more of the title

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Speaker 1: fifty oriented authorities, but but also UH presidential findings, UM.

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Speaker 1: And then take Pentagon technologies and and resources. UM. Put

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Speaker 1: them together, and UH see if you can do something,

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Speaker 1: uh see if you can do something you know, new

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Speaker 1: innovative to find Ben Laden. Was really the end of

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Speaker 1: state and the the only the only other hard constraint

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Speaker 1: that was in the memo was we'd like this done

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Speaker 1: by November of two thousands. The memo memo came out

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Speaker 1: in January two thousands, so a nine month timeline, which UH,

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Speaker 1: for any listeners that have been involved in program developments

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Speaker 1: or new systems development is UH that's that's the blink

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Speaker 1: of an eye for for getting something off the ground.

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Speaker 1: So that's that was really the uh, you know, the

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Speaker 1: kick start for UH for putting us in the room

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Speaker 1: together and needing to uh, needing to come up with

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Speaker 1: the capability. Now, Alec, you were an Army warrant officer,

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Speaker 1: was intelligence used to work with special forces guys, and

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Speaker 1: then Mark was a Air Force officer. Now Alec. When

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Speaker 1: you were involved with this, were you still in the

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Speaker 1: military or were you working for the other government agency? Yeah? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I UM started at d I A as a UM

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Speaker 1: as a warrant UH, and then I transitioned into a

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Speaker 1: government GS position, government civilian position. There I was responsible

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Speaker 1: for analyzing terrorism related facilities worldwide. And at the time

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Speaker 1: in the nineties, we were very focused still on his

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Speaker 1: Bala and uh then watching things and living on and elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Didn't have didn't have deep knowledge on on this but uh,

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Speaker 1: but then you know, after the embassy bombings in UM,

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Speaker 1: there was a strong effort to get d O D

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Speaker 1: and and in this case d I A and joint

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Speaker 1: staff deeper into understanding actionable intelligence from CIA and at

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Speaker 1: the time c I a counter terrorism center had phenomenal

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Speaker 1: analysts and court collectors, but supporting the military and that

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Speaker 1: that targeting process was certainly not a strong suit. So

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Speaker 1: I worked in a joint UH. So I was detailed

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Speaker 1: to c i A first from d I A and

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Speaker 1: then UH and then transitioned and became a staff officer

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Speaker 1: and a case officer at at CIA. But yeah, absolutely

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Speaker 1: came out of the came out of the military. And

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Speaker 1: you know, UM was one of the few people at

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Speaker 1: CPC Counter Terrorism Center that UH UM as as they

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Speaker 1: said it, UH spoke spoke Pentagon language, which is how

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Speaker 1: I got tasked with the UH with the role of

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Speaker 1: being the program manager from the agency. Said, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: you mentioned the Tanzania bombing, and you know, it seems

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Speaker 1: like yesterday when that happened, and looking back on it now,

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Speaker 1: it's like twenty three years ago. I mean, it seems

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Speaker 1: like a blink of an eye. But you know, up

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Speaker 1: until that point, I think for the most Americans, we

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Speaker 1: had never heard of al Qaeda up until probably that

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Speaker 1: time frame. Yeah, but yeah, absolutely it was. It was

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Speaker 1: you know, in the mid nineties, and laden was you know,

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Speaker 1: sitting in Sudan in a relative state haven um. You

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Speaker 1: know it it fought in UH in Afghanistan or in

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Speaker 1: during the war with the with the Russians or our

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Speaker 1: proxy war UH in Afghanistan, but certainly was not it

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Speaker 1: was not the household name certainly in the in the

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Speaker 1: late nineties or even into in the two thousand, the

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Speaker 1: embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. Um, we're probably the first,

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Speaker 1: the first events that put them on the radar for

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Speaker 1: for a lot of folks. So how did this project

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Speaker 1: get started? I mean, we know the background of you know,

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Speaker 1: they were looking for um, you know, more actionable intelligence

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Speaker 1: in Afghanistan, which is you know, at that time, the

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Speaker 1: agency was heavily into human and as we all know,

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Speaker 1: the average American doesn't blend in well in Afghanistan territory,

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Speaker 1: so you happen to rely on local sources, which is

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Speaker 1: as harder to control, and you don't have that kind

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Speaker 1: of background there. So how did this all, this entire

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Speaker 1: project get started from your guys standpoint? And how did

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Speaker 1: you all get thrown together in this? Yeah, let me

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Speaker 1: set the stage for the for the getting to the

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Speaker 1: technology piece and I'll turn over to Mark. But um,

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Speaker 1: you know, after after we got the memo I mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: um uh, and and we had a planning meeting Charlie Allen,

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Speaker 1: who is the Assistant Director of Central Intelligence for Collections

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Speaker 1: at the time, and a in a real legend um

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Speaker 1: in the in the intelligence world, UM said, you know,

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Speaker 1: go down to the Pentagon, find the right folks. Let's

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Speaker 1: get this thing put together. And we knew we set

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Speaker 1: some we set some constraints, some planning assumptions. UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: we knew we had the nine months. We knew we

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Speaker 1: were going to leverage d D AT that we knew

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Speaker 1: our humans as you as you mentioned, our sources on

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Speaker 1: the ground where we're we're not able to give us

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Speaker 1: actionable intelligence and and in this case, in this context,

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Speaker 1: actual intelligence in this because it really important later on,

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Speaker 1: is that the requirement was to put us eyes on target,

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Speaker 1: UM have a a U S person trusted, vetted, cleared,

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Speaker 1: UM understanding the full consequences of their their findings and reports, UM,

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Speaker 1: putting the rise on Ben Latten. And we knew we

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Speaker 1: couldn't do that on the ground, UM with the sources

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Speaker 1: that we had. We didn't have Americans running around uh

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Speaker 1: and in those parts of Afghanistan, and UM, so we

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Speaker 1: we opted to find a technical solution. Put you know,

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Speaker 1: we modified the phrase a little bit, but technical us

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Speaker 1: eyes on target. Fig. It really didn't matter if those

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Speaker 1: eyes were you know, a couple of thousand miles away

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Speaker 1: looking through a camera on a on a drone or

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Speaker 1: whether they were on the ground. And UH and the Pentagon,

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Speaker 1: you know, extremely receptive. The J three and the J

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Speaker 1: two for the Joint Staff, UM, we're deeply involved. That's

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Speaker 1: that's where we wound up. On the Joint Staff side,

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Speaker 1: on the Office of the Secretary of Defense side, we

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Speaker 1: were dealing with Dr Chuck Perkins and Alex Lovett who

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Speaker 1: were running advanced concepts or advanced Technology demonstration basically science

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Speaker 1: projects for os D. And one of those science projects

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Speaker 1: that that Alex love It turned us onto when we

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Speaker 1: started having discussions at Pentagon was Predator as a as

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Speaker 1: a capability that you know UH Mark was operating just

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Speaker 1: prior to that in uh in Bosnia. Mark, you want

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Speaker 1: to pick it up on the Predator side, sure, you know. First, So,

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Speaker 1: as Alec alluded to, up until we first met three

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Speaker 1: months before that, I was at then Indian Springs Airfield

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Speaker 1: and UH in Nevada now called Creeds Air Force Base,

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Speaker 1: where we had operated the Predator. I was a major

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Speaker 1: at the time, and uh had been the operations officer

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Speaker 1: for the first squadron that we had of Predators. I

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Speaker 1: had moved then to the Pentagon and I was I

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Speaker 1: was doing doctrine stuff at the Pentagon. Haden life. Uh

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Speaker 1: when uh, when I got a call that says, hey,

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Speaker 1: you're dropping everything and you're gonna be involved in this program,

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Speaker 1: I think we got to set the stage that at

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Speaker 1: that point in time. You know, the concept for Predator

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Speaker 1: was we would deploy a bunch of people forward, like

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Speaker 1: Alec mentioned in Bosnia, set up right and basically in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the target area. We're close to it.

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Speaker 1: When we started doing Kosovo, and everything would be there

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Speaker 1: at the site. Well, the first thing we learned was

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Speaker 1: we weren't gonna be able to do that based on

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Speaker 1: what Alec talked about. So we were gonna do a

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Speaker 1: technological leap where we were going to have a small

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Speaker 1: footprint forward at a launch site and then we were

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Speaker 1: going to uh be a satellite pipe the information back

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Speaker 1: somewhere else and that's where the operational team would be.

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Speaker 1: That's where we would have all our intelligence support, weather support,

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Speaker 1: the linkages too. Alec and his team um to do that,

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Speaker 1: So that was the first technological leap that everybody you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of just you know, it's like

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Speaker 1: nothing today. But then it was like, we're gonna do

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Speaker 1: what you know, Alex that what'sn't even I'm sorry to

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Speaker 1: interrupt with Mark, but at that time, I mean even

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Speaker 1: the people that design Predator never really envisioned this kind

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Speaker 1: of a scenario. They absolutely not. And UH. In the

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Speaker 1: book of because this is sensitivities, UH, there's a gentleman

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Speaker 1: in there named Albert, also known as the Man with

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Speaker 1: two Brains. Without him, none of this would have been

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Speaker 1: possible because he and some of our other contractors came

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Speaker 1: up with the technology to do that, to bounce this

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Speaker 1: sat like in UH. And to be honest, when we

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Speaker 1: first at operating over Afghanistan, the link at our takeoff

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Speaker 1: location was terrible to where we would have to set

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Speaker 1: it so that it wouldn't try to return its back

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Speaker 1: all the time. And you know, Albert was like, it

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Speaker 1: will get better over the target area. Trust me, you

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Speaker 1: kind of trusted uh. And Alec was like, Mark, how

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Speaker 1: do you know if this is gonna work? And I

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Speaker 1: was like, Alec, if we click on the link and

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Speaker 1: we see video and my team can move the stick

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Speaker 1: and it makes the camera move and the the control

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Speaker 1: surfaces on the airplane move, I will be confident that

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Speaker 1: we can do this, But until that point, I'm not sure. Um.

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Speaker 1: So you know I I got the first that call

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Speaker 1: in June of two thousand and Oh by the way,

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Speaker 1: it was, we're gonna do this, and you have to

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Speaker 1: have a demonstration in less than a month and then

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Speaker 1: deploy in two months on unproven technology against this high

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Speaker 1: problem set u Uh. You have no squadron. You have

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Speaker 1: to figure out the team and set it up, and

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Speaker 1: you have no location. You got to figure that out,

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna link with the agency, which we've never

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Speaker 1: done before. And that's kind of where you know, Alec

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Speaker 1: and I first met each other in a meeting in

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Speaker 1: the Pentagon, and you know, I was like, who's the

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Speaker 1: young kid here? He's gonna be the guy in charge. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's amazing. And you know the fact that you guys

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Speaker 1: were even able to get your entire team put together

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Speaker 1: and that short amount of time and accomplished the things

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Speaker 1: that you did, it's pretty amazing. Well, I think it's

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Speaker 1: it's the testament, and I think part of it was

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Speaker 1: goodness on the leadership and our built there a building

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Speaker 1: or them allowing us to pick kind of hand picked

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Speaker 1: the team and too. It was kind of luck because

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Speaker 1: you can look at our team, whether it's contractors or

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Speaker 1: in listed or officers, so across the gamut from our pilots,

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Speaker 1: our sensor operators, ALEX team, the imagery folks that we're

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Speaker 1: supporting ALEC, our intelligence people, are weather people, and certainly

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Speaker 1: our communications people. We had some They were all go

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Speaker 1: getters and they never took no for an answer, and

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Speaker 1: that's really what you know. It wasn't ALEC and I

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Speaker 1: that made all this happen. It was the people on

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Speaker 1: our team. And then we were certainly lucky to have

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Speaker 1: some good leadership that gave us a lot of rote

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Speaker 1: but didn't let us hang ourselves. And and things didn't

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Speaker 1: go smoothly at first. I know I read in the

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Speaker 1: book that you know, you had some problems. Obviously you're

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Speaker 1: you're starting, uh you know, a program where you're asking

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Speaker 1: this uh device to do things that hadn't been envisioned

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Speaker 1: before you actually had a crash on one. Can you

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Speaker 1: talk to our listeners about that? M hm? Enough and

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Speaker 1: uh and I'll let you test because you had to

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Speaker 1: deal with the ramification. Um. Yeah, so we we had

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Speaker 1: some Normally, you you you take the aircraft out of

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Speaker 1: the coffin as we call it together. And the first

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Speaker 1: thing you do is a functional check flight. The process

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Speaker 1: in those days was you did that only during the day. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and that way you could test everything. You didn't have

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Speaker 1: but one camera to use, et cetera. Well, because of

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Speaker 1: some of our requirements from our host nation, uh, we

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Speaker 1: had to uh wit at night. Um, and we are

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Speaker 1: and I don't I don't want to make this sound

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Speaker 1: like I blame the contractors or whatever, but they were

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Speaker 1: doing their best. They didn't have a full team forward, um,

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Speaker 1: and there were Um the camera did what it was

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Speaker 1: a suposed to do based on the mode they had

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Speaker 1: it in, and it caused the pilot to get disoriented

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Speaker 1: and uh he basically reacted to what he was seeing,

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Speaker 1: which caused the airplane to basically flipping and destroyed on

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Speaker 1: It was our first flight. So Alec, I'll turn it

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Speaker 1: over to you because you were the one who had

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Speaker 1: to deal with the funness there. Well. I got a

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Speaker 1: new appreciation that night for the reason the Air Force

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Speaker 1: as checklists and pilots used checklist to go through things

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Speaker 1: and and it was it was our requirement, you know.

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Speaker 1: And based on dealing with the host nation on. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's by its very nature it's hard to have a

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Speaker 1: clandestine airfield. But but we give it our best, our

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Speaker 1: best shot. You know, we weren't able to deploy the

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Speaker 1: full compliment that that certainly Mark would have been used

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Speaker 1: to from from his Bossia days. And we you know,

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Speaker 1: we set a head count at ten where everybody's got

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Speaker 1: at least two three jobs to to do. Um and

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Speaker 1: at every thing from you know, the the guy in charge,

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Speaker 1: you know, through the mechanics, the technicians, the pilot, sensors, security, medical,

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Speaker 1: all had to fit into a ten person package. Um.

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Speaker 1: And and doing the flat at night, you know, and

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Speaker 1: limiting it to one camera. Um. You know, it's uh,

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Speaker 1: it violated the the Air Force approach to things and

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Speaker 1: and we violated physics along the way. But so it

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Speaker 1: was a rough start. Um. But and you know, having

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Speaker 1: to having to brief my my leadership on it, I was, um,

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Speaker 1: I was challenged to figure out how to paint this

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Speaker 1: without getting the program shut down. So I think my

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Speaker 1: I think the quote I used was, you know, sor

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Speaker 1: I got, I got good news and bad news. And

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Speaker 1: the bad news is we crashed. But the good news

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Speaker 1: is the pilots okay um. And you know, as a

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Speaker 1: as a result, we were able to you know, staying

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Speaker 1: that and it became a it became a budget fight

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Speaker 1: later as to who's going to pay for it, But

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Speaker 1: we were able to keep the program going. And and

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Speaker 1: but that's the nature of of an innovative effort, that's

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Speaker 1: the nature of experimentation. Um. And and as Mark said,

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Speaker 1: you know, our leadership gave us good, good top cover

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Speaker 1: guys like like like Charlie Allen and general super Campbell, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, giving us, giving us the support on the

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Speaker 1: understanding the community and the d O D side. And

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Speaker 1: you know my bosses at the time, Richly Coper Black,

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Speaker 1: you know, the same same thing. But it was definitely

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Speaker 1: a you know, managed the message as you as you

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Speaker 1: briefed it now you know. Um, I want to jump

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Speaker 1: forward a little bit in the book because um, I

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Speaker 1: think it was the summer of two thousand or maybe

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Speaker 1: of September two thousand, you guys were already on station

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Speaker 1: and and I think it was mission number seven or eight.

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Speaker 1: I think it was in the book. You correct me

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong on that. You actually put eyes on

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Speaker 1: some of bin laden and uh that I mean that

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Speaker 1: was eyebrow racer. I could tell my eyebrows one up

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Speaker 1: when I read that. Because they gave you, you know,

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Speaker 1: a mission and in less than the time frame, which

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Speaker 1: was very short as it was, you guys accomplished what

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Speaker 1: you set out to do right away. And talk our

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Speaker 1: listeners to this. This was an amazing part of the book. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'll say at the stage, but Mark, you can pick

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Speaker 1: it up from after the man I'm waiting what happened next? Um?

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Speaker 1: You know the team effort to get to that point. Yes,

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Speaker 1: from from the from the memo through to getting deployed. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, the communications architecture that had to be put together, Uh,

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Speaker 1: teaching imagery analysts that we used to look at satellite

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Speaker 1: imagery how to work in full motion video, which is

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Speaker 1: you know, commonplace today but was was unheard of at

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Speaker 1: the time at the at the national level. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: and then getting our collections managers to to integrate what

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Speaker 1: we were learning from our our human sources, our signals intelligence,

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Speaker 1: our imagery. You know the database that we had. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know that day that mission it was Mission eight,

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Speaker 1: started as a it was a Friday, and we had

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Speaker 1: a report suggesting that Ben laden might be in the

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Speaker 1: area outside of Condahar uh known as Tarnak Farms. And

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Speaker 1: when we had watched our neck farms for for quite

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Speaker 1: a while, uh with you know, with the with satellite

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Speaker 1: to understand you know, what it was, where it was.

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Speaker 1: And and then one of our one of our planners, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, brought up the fact that, hey, Friday Friday prayers. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, if we're going to see him, you know,

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Speaker 1: let's make sure that we're on station uh prior to

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Speaker 1: you know, Friday Prayers, and let's let's look for what

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Speaker 1: that that location might be and then start looking for

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Speaker 1: what might constitute a you know, a security profile uh

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Speaker 1: for him. And so we playing the whole mission against that.

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Speaker 1: He got down by Condo Heart, um, got over tur

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Speaker 1: Knight Farms and you know it's we call it the

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Speaker 1: man in White scenario. But um, you know, tall, tall

355
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Speaker 1: guy walks out of a building, everybody stops what they're doing,

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Speaker 1: shows deference, um. And it was it was just amazing

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Speaker 1: to watch it in in real time. I mean, nobody

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Speaker 1: nobody had seen been Alden and you know, in a

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Speaker 1: in a fine fixed type of scenario or you know,

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Speaker 1: isolating into a specific point on the globe in a

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Speaker 1: specific time UM. Since it had been probably five years,

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Speaker 1: it was probably at some point in Sudan, um. So

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Speaker 1: it was it was yeah six less. Uh you know

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Speaker 1: what we put We put U S I S on

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Speaker 1: on target um and I'll let Mark pick it up

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Speaker 1: from there. Well, you know, for for us sitting at

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Speaker 1: the at the real tactical level, we had you know,

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Speaker 1: ALEC had given us direction. We had to do our

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Speaker 1: best to avoid being detected going into country. So we

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Speaker 1: had figured out what what the radars were doing for

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Speaker 1: the for the the Afghans, which ones are up, which

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Speaker 1: ones are down, what routes to get in. We had

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Speaker 1: worked our way all the way to Kandahar. They had

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Speaker 1: radar guided sam's. We had done our best to be

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Speaker 1: able to be mindful of those as well as nig aircraft.

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Speaker 1: And we did that and you know, we knew. I

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Speaker 1: think we were confident, all of us that if we

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Speaker 1: could link up ALEX human intelligence and other intelligence sources

379
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Speaker 1: and our ability to get over target, that we could

380
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Speaker 1: be successful. And sure enough, you know, we we get

381
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Speaker 1: over the area. Uh there you could Normally there wasn't

382
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Speaker 1: a lot of activity there, but all of a sudden,

383
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Speaker 1: we see more vehicles around the surrounding area that, as

384
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Speaker 1: Alec mentioned, looked like a security set up, and you know,

385
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Speaker 1: it's it's around time people are gonna meet and there's

386
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Speaker 1: a bunch of people they're huddling around, and next thing,

387
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Speaker 1: you know, out of what was was identified to us

388
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Speaker 1: as his probable residents, outcomes the man who's definitely taller

389
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Speaker 1: than everybody else. He's in white, people are deferring to him,

390
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Speaker 1: et cetera. And of course for us, the what had

391
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Speaker 1: been briefed was we get actionable intelligence. Uh, they're going

392
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Speaker 1: to they're gonna go after for him with the means

393
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Speaker 1: we had at the time. And that's where in the

394
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Speaker 1: book there's some colorful dialogue between our our liaisons between

395
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Speaker 1: Alec and I who had the worst job because they

396
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Speaker 1: had to work, between Alec and I, uh, and then

397
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Speaker 1: Alec and I on, Okay, we did our part, you know,

398
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Speaker 1: is the subn of basket so we can launch a missile.

399
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Speaker 1: And then that's when it's we learned that that what

400
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Speaker 1: we had been brief what Alec had been briefed, wasn't

401
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Speaker 1: actually gonna happen. Uh. And I'll also say shortly after

402
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: that another problem arose, and that was we got indications

403
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: that there was a h that they knew there was

404
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: something up in the air and they were gonna launch

405
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: a big aircraft after it. So it got really interesting

406
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 1: after that. But I mean we had put an eyes

407
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Speaker 1: on yeah, And that was the amazing part of the

408
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Speaker 1: book because this was a full year before nine eleven.

409
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: It was before the Cold bombing, and you know it

410
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: always as a reader, it makes you wonder, and you

411
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: mentioned it in the book. I mean, what the Cold

412
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: bombing have have happened? Um, would they have gone through

413
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: with it? What they have gone through at nine eleven

414
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: if been Ladden was taken out? And I think it's

415
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: a fair question, and you know, you you have to

416
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: stop and wonder about that. But you know, reading reading

417
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: that in the book and you're talking about a full

418
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 1: year before nine eleven they had the opportunity to take

419
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: them out and they didn't take it, it makes you

420
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Speaker 1: wonder what the thought process wasn't watching it at that point.

421
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Speaker 1: I don't just go ahead, Alec. We we went through,

422
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: uh some some a couple of parallel issues in after

423
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: the Embasy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania because we know,

424
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: we want to blind and UH cruise missiles in Afghanistan

425
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: and UH in Sudan. UM and because Afghanistan's a lot

426
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: landlocked country and you're overplying you know, Pakistan UH to

427
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: get weapons on target off of the from from ships. UM.

428
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: There's there's some political issues there, but you know, frankly

429
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Speaker 1: we uh we overcame that in the in the in

430
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: the ninety eight scenario UM by just prepositioning resources to

431
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: make sure that Pakistani's didn't think it was an attack

432
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: from India. UM. And and certainly all the mechanisms, you know,

433
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: while in parallel with with the technical development of the

434
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: Predator program and and and building that team and putting

435
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: all those pieces together, we were also working the okay,

436
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: what what if we find them? What if we're successful

437
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: then then what And that architecture was put into place,

438
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: the resources were put into place. UM. You know, there

439
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: was there was no appetite for putting boots on the ground,

440
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: which frankly was why we had an unmanned aircraft over UM.

441
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: But UH, yeah that the shortest we could get the

442
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: timeline was we put eyes on target and then you

443
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: just got you know, flight time UH forgetting weapons on target.

444
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: And you know, whether you know obviously you know now

445
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: it's history, and you know, the threshold for for pulling

446
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: the trigger on that was was not met. Whether it

447
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: was you know, set up and and viable. Yeah, all

448
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: the pieces, all the pieces were in place. But from

449
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: a political perspective, you know, the decision makers didn't didn't

450
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: see fit to pull the trigger that day. UM. And

451
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: whether the expectation was that we can do it once,

452
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: we can do it again, you know we obviously we

453
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: obviously continued. We did another seven flights I think in

454
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: two thousands before we shut down primarily because of weather

455
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: constraints through the winter. UM. And we're going to use

456
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: that time to reset and go back in two thousand one.

457
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: I would say from a from a personal perspective, I

458
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: whether it's a character flaw or whatever, I I don't

459
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: tend to to. I've kind of found my own mechanism

460
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: for not doing the look back on you know, could

461
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: have should have UM. But I would also say, you know,

462
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: at the time, while where there was a lot of

463
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: frustration over those last uh seven missions at ALEC mentioned

464
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: especially after after the coal I think the team became

465
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: resolved that we needed to do the next step. We

466
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: need to we prove what we could do, uh, and

467
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: maybe we need to do more. That's kind of where

468
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: our motto and the title of the book comes started.

469
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: Never mind, We'll do it ourselves, and then really allowed

470
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: us to start thinking about arm and the predator because

471
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: I think, you know, you could look at it also

472
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: had we not um, had that situation not occurred. While

473
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: I still think we would eventually arm the predator, I

474
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: don't think we would have done it as fast without

475
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: the resolve of the people on the team to to

476
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: do it ourselves. That was leads me into the next part,

477
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: which is it was again it was fascinating because we're

478
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: so used to hearing about the predator and being armed

479
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: today we take it for granted that you know, it

480
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: was always that way, but it really wasn't. And and

481
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: again the folks have built it said you know, it

482
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: wasn't wasn't constructed for that. They basically said, you know,

483
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: let the buyer beware if you know, anything goes wrong

484
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: it this. Can you talk our listeners briefly through how

485
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: you guys got to this realization Okay, we're gonna arm

486
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: the predator. How you went about it? And you know

487
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: all the work that went into this. So from from

488
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: an agency perspective, UM, we accepted and in fact that

489
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: we're requests from you know, from from my leadership on

490
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: you know, what else can we do? You know, can

491
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: we can we arm it? There was a healthy discussion

492
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: about can we can we even just crash predator in

493
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: the been a lot and if we find them again?

494
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: Um and and and you know, obviously the safety mechanisms

495
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: that were built into uh, into the communications and the

496
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: aircraft would largely prevent us from doing that. And I

497
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: don't know that we would have gotten the kinectic effects

498
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: that we that we wanted anyway. But so the you know,

499
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: the kind of on the on the long term planning

500
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: process from the Air Force side, there was there was

501
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: a discussions about arming it at some point. And you know,

502
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: just to show you how I how naive I was

503
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: at the time, you know, when we found out we

504
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: only had a hundred pounds payload capacity on the wings,

505
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: you know, we went back to manufacturers and and the

506
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: Air Force and they're like, we put about a hundred

507
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: pounds on there. But you know there was no adapter, uh,

508
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: you know, that didn't exist. Um, there was a reasonable

509
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: fear that launching a missile off of the wing would

510
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: potentially take the wing off the aircraft. UM. In fact,

511
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: I think we got a picture in the book. It's

512
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: on our website too with you know, the first launch

513
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: was off of a predator set up on a pedestal, um,

514
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: just to see what the effects would be on the

515
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: on the aircraft. But you know, my my naive approach was, I, well,

516
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,239
Speaker 1: we only got a hundred pounds I want, you know,

517
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: pounds of high explosives and two pounds of rappers. Um.

518
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: And then once we started looking into it, and I

519
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: got a rapid education on on on high explosives and

520
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: weapons systems. Um. You know, we went to Redstone Arsenal

521
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: and Huntsville and started talking to the experts about you know, um,

522
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: you know, what can we do with a hundred pounds

523
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: and help fire. I got put on the table pretty quick. UM.

524
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: You know, I felt like we were wasting a lot

525
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: on fuel. But you know, it turns out, UM it was.

526
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,720
Speaker 1: It was a really good weapons choice from a getting

527
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,720
Speaker 1: a weapon on target. UM. You know. The testing process,

528
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: you know, I think what sixty days and half a

529
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: million dollars Mark two uh, to prove that that we

530
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: could shoot the hell fires offer offer predator. Well that's

531
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: what I had to put on the power points light

532
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: in the Pentagon because that's what they could sell. It

533
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: did not be a little bit more than that. But

534
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: that's how staff work goes. Yeah, that's uh, that's how

535
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: things work, and you have to do what you have

536
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: to do. And so then you guys went out to

537
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: it was a China like that. You went out to

538
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: and and tested it and went through a bunch of

539
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: various scenarios, increasing the altitude and and whatnot. Because I

540
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: remember reading in the book as well that and the

541
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: hell fire wasn't even designed to be shot at that altitude.

542
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: Was actually a low level missile, correct, Yeah, it was

543
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 1: an army weapon designed mostly for helicopters to to shoot

544
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: nap of the earth and uh against the at low altitude,

545
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: against those targets. So you know, the first thing we

546
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 1: had to do was, first off, you know that missile

547
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: is because of that, they built a the logic and

548
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: the missile to the climbing out to to get over

549
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: terrain and everything else and to give it what we

550
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: call g bias to hit the targets. So The first

551
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: thing we needed to do is, you know, figure out

552
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: how to fake it out or change the software. And

553
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: they didn't want to change these software, so we had

554
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: to redesign some things to fake it out. And then

555
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: we were like, okay, well it's used to a few

556
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: hundred feet, what's it gonna do when we put it

557
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: up at twenty thou feet? You know, is it actually

558
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: gonna be able to make it? Is it gonna if

559
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: we do it for twenty hours up at that out?

560
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: Is it gonna do what we call cold soap and

561
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: the electronics not work? And the only way to to

562
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: know that is to to do some testing. And we

563
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: did minimal testing to give us at least some level

564
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: of confidence to do that. But it was certainly I

565
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: mean the work from red Stone Arsenal is Alec mentioned

566
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: Big Safari, the rapid acquisition arm UH for the Air Force,

567
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: in General Atomics and other contractors. It was a team

568
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: effort to uh get that accomplished. We would do software

569
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: changes like daily to make that happen. We had a

570
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: new center ball that we were using. Uh. So it

571
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: was it was a lot of unproven a lot of

572
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: things had to happen right for them for that to happen.

573
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: But and if I could just add it, and I

574
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: think this is uh fact or at least what I

575
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: was briefed on at the time from the Army side

576
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: that you know, locky that makes how fire. Um said

577
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: that if we took it to twenty feet, we were

578
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 1: avoiding the warranty and uh, they wouldn't accept responsibility for that.

579
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 1: But it it goes to it goes to you know,

580
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 1: just that that that technology challenge of you know, hey,

581
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: it's it's designed for a five thousand foot and you're

582
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: taking it to twenty Um hadn't done it before. I think,

583
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: you know, the test win. The test went reasonably well, uh,

584
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: Mark and I may have you know, highlighted this success

585
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: and mumbled through the you know, the failures a little

586
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: bit as we briefed it. But um, I think I

587
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: think by the time we got through the test, we

588
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 1: were I was convinced, Um that you know, this is

589
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: this is definitely what we had to go with. And UM, Yeah,

590
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: within the span of a couple of months, UM, we

591
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 1: had we had answered that subsequent call of um, you know,

592
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: giving U given a weaponize capability to the same platform. Yeah,

593
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: I mean you got to look back on it, you know,

594
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: the Air Force the first test, you know, February March

595
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: kind of time period, and our last our last tests,

596
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: I believe we're in the June maybe July time period. Uh.

597
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: And that was the kind of the last ones were

598
00:38:54,520 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: kind of a dress rehearsal, keep it airborne for twenty hours, um,

599
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: look at stuff and then take the shot. That kind

600
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 1: of the culmination that we were like when we got

601
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: to that point, I think we felt we had a

602
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: good capability that if we had another opportunity, we would

603
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: have a mechanism to to deal with the target. And

604
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: and then jumping forward, Uh, just a couple of months

605
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 1: after your last test, eleven happens. You guys described you know,

606
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 1: watching it from various perspectives in the book Unfold, and

607
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: it's amazing that you got orders and you guys went

608
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: wheels up and a very very short amount of time.

609
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: Can you talk our listeners through that? And you know

610
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: how you got set up back in afghanistaning h while

611
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: we were you know all I think, like like every

612
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: American UM watching an experience, saying to the effects of

613
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,959
Speaker 1: what was happening that day, you know, and I looked

614
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: back over it years years later, and I was like,

615
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: we as helpless, as we felt, um as beaten at

616
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 1: that particular moment, as we felt we actually had something

617
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: to do. We had, you know, much like first responders did,

618
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: much like you know military um, you know, would start

619
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: activating and turning things on, um, you know with It

620
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 1: was actually between the two tours following that uh Snake Clark, Uh,

621
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: you know, an institution within the Air Force called me

622
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: um and all he said is what do you need?

623
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,919
Speaker 1: And um, you know, and keeping in mind, every aircraft

624
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: in the nation was grounded or being grounded at that point.

625
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: And you know, I didn't have the authority to I

626
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: didn't have the authority to tell him to do anything

627
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: in particul their bed. And then we gotta we gotta

628
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: go um and and uh he started turning on aircraft

629
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: and whatever magic he was able to do to get

630
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: aircraft flying. Um within hours, UM, and Mark, your guys

631
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: got picked up right out in California, grabbed some help

632
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: fires on the way, drop some stuff up in d C.

633
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: And and headed over right. Yeah. I mean when you

634
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: look back on I certainly you know we have been

635
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: waiting for this moment, not for nine eleven, but to

636
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 1: redeploy uh and there was you know, the the political

637
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 1: arms had to figure that out. So we had leaned

638
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: forward in the satellit as far as we could. We

639
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: had already moved a ground control station to the new location.

640
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: We had done everything we could UH. So it was

641
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: certainly once UH eleven happened, we were certainly able to

642
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: lean forward faster than most others. UM. But you know,

643
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: to the the tribute to our folks, you know, we

644
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: were I was getting calls, you know, people all over.

645
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: One of my guys was in Okinawa Station there. We

646
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: had folks up in Alaska. We have folks, you know,

647
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: on vacation that we're calling in the squadron. Commander Ed

648
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: Boyle was actually temporary duty and in Arizona and had

649
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: to drive back NonStop to get us going. So everybody

650
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: was working hard. And you know, I you know you'll

651
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: read about in the book, but I remember at one

652
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: point I was a major at the time, and I

653
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: told that, like I said, I think i've I've I've

654
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: done more than I'm supposed to as a major. I

655
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: probably need to call one of the bosses to make sure.

656
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: And I got clearance to to do that. And then uh,

657
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, I remember calling out my former squadron commander

658
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 1: um out at out at any in Springs and said, hey, sir,

659
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: I need to I need the following individuals to figure

660
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: out a way to get to California to meet the airlift, uh,

661
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: because I got a mission that I need him to do.

662
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: And he was like, you know, I'm not gonna get

663
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,919
Speaker 1: a formal message on this am I mark And I'm like, no, sir,

664
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: but general focus song the then A three equivalent is

665
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: fully wear and need you to do it. He's like,

666
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 1: don't be there. But he also said if anybody else

667
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: would have called me to hung up on him. So

668
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: remember that's how we got to you know, twelve September,

669
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 1: we were we were running and then uh we actually

670
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 1: did our first flight uh into Afghanistan on the seventeenth.

671
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: That's amazingly fast. Um. And you know, I know you

672
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: guys should being in the Pentagon in the agency. You

673
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: all knew people that we're impacted by nine eleven. I

674
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: mean I think every but he did. And then the

675
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 1: war hit home right after you guys were in Afghanistan.

676
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 1: I know, Um, Alec lost a good friend Mike span

677
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: um Mark. You knew Jefferson Davis from high school? I

678
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 1: knew him very very briefly and in Special Forces. I

679
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: remember touching base with him a couple of times in passing,

680
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 1: and uh, when I read about that, it's amazing how

681
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: small the world isn't it. Yeah, it was kind of

682
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: kind of curial, and it definitely hit home. I mean,

683
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: he and I had graduated high school together with spent

684
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: all of our high school years together. My dad had

685
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:50,760
Speaker 1: retired and I moved back to Elizabethan, Tennessee, and uh,

686
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: my brother had called me, uh and said, hey, did

687
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: you see that what happened to Donnie? And I didn't

688
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: And then I saw it and I'm likely cow because

689
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: we had we had support did I didn't know we

690
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: had so I didn't know he was on the ground

691
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: with the team, but we had supported his team as

692
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: well as others on numerous occasions, and it, uh, it

693
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: just happened to be that day we didn't. So it's

694
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: another one of those could have, should have, would have

695
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: because there were definitely other times that we helped out

696
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: when there were working in issues, et cetera. So it

697
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: was a tragic loss, but it it gave me an

698
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: opportunity as a leader to remind people on from a

699
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 1: personal way, UM, why we were doing what we were doing,

700
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: and that we would do everything we can to make

701
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 1: sure incidents like that didn't happen anymore. So it was tragic.

702
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: It was tragic for Mike's Mike span as well. Now, yeah,

703
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 1: I remember that. I remember the mark your premission brief

704
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: after Davis was killed. You know, I think he brought

705
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: in his hat his picture there. And I mean there

706
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 1: was nobody on the team team that was in any

707
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: way wavering and their and their support for the mission,

708
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: be it in two thousand or two thousand one, Um,

709
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: you know, it was it was not hard to organize

710
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: and and uh and move the team forward. You know

711
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: when you said, you know, our mission is to go

712
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: find been Lott, uh you know, and that was in

713
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: two thousand and then. I don't even know that anybody

714
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: talked about the mission in two thousand one. It was

715
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: pretty clear, um, but you know, we had, you know,

716
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: on on the Air Force side, you know, there were

717
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: dozens of people supporting on the agency side, dozens of

718
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: people UH supporting, um, you know, be it in in uh,

719
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: in DC, overseas at contractor facilities down at Redstone, at

720
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: Pick Safari and and Dating Ohio. I mean there were people,

721
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: there were people supporting the program, uh everywhere, and and

722
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: what was what was amazing is you know there was

723
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: there was no no lack of motivation. And one of

724
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: the requirements that we from the agency side put on

725
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: when whenever we had people coming to CIA headquarters, we

726
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: didn't want the military uniforms there. We didn't want to

727
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: change our profile even within our own community at at

728
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 1: at headquarters. This was a very compartment at program. But

729
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: I can't tell you you know who on the team

730
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: definitively was a contractor versus a government civilian versus a

731
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: uniform military enlisted our officer. And I also couldn't tell

732
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: you the rank. Uh most of the people that were

733
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: that were supporting, they were all just teammates and they

734
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 1: were all there, um and you know, in some cases

735
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 1: it was it was very junior enlisted guys that were

736
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 1: you know, providing input, you know, be a technical, weather,

737
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: operational collections management that you know, their their their contributions were.

738
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: It really didn't matter who was coming. Uh, we were

739
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: we were taking their games and we were innovating on

740
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: the fly to get this done. But when you do

741
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 1: see the losses, um, you know, Mike span and Davis

742
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: being being two of them. You know, Mark was on

743
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: the ramp at Ramstein after the cole um saw the

744
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: procession of Hearses. After that, Um, you know, it definitely

745
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 1: strengthens your dissolved and it gives you, you know, an

746
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 1: enhanced sense a mission and purpose. Um that that we

747
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: we truly were empowered and charged to try and make

748
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: a difference. And I think that motivated us daily. And

749
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,760
Speaker 1: then you know, once you guys were on the ground,

750
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 1: you started actually running missions and everything that we're used

751
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:53,959
Speaker 1: to seeing today now kind of happened. I'm not gonna

752
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: say all at once, but it was a gradual thing,

753
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 1: if from reading in the book, but it kind of

754
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 1: all fell into place during the Battle of Robert's Ridge.

755
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: Can you talk to our listeners a little bit through

756
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: that and explain, you know, the situation on the ground

757
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: and how it all came to be. All I'm gonna

758
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: say is the same thing that I said on that

759
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: day when when Mark contacted me. I was at headquarters,

760
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 1: he was in the GCS. He's like, we think we

761
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 1: got troops in contact and I said, see, I was

762
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: getting out of the way. You know, go direct to

763
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 1: them and do what you need to do. You know,

764
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: the the tough part for Anaconda. First off, the major operation.

765
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: You know, we on the air force side and ALEC

766
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 1: on the agency side knew there was a big operation

767
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: coming on, but you know, we struggled to get into

768
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: the planning stuff. So I think on that day we

769
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: were just run a mission from a collection deck thatt

770
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 1: Ala catus on and jess happened. Luckily we were up

771
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: in the general vicinity. Uh. When it happened, our pilots

772
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: immediately we're working to try to get through airspace too,

773
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: uh to get near the what was going on, to

774
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,800
Speaker 1: see if we could help. We were contacting the command

775
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 1: and control entities to see what we could do to help.

776
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: Are enlisted sensor operators were scanning to see what they

777
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 1: could find, and frankly just happened. The greatness of our

778
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: center operators of staff sergeant at the time now a

779
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: chief Master sergeant um came across the helicopter and hey,

780
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: let me follow this, and it ended up being the

781
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: helicopter that ended up hard landing getting rocket attacked on it. Uh.

782
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: Or rocket fired on it and impacting on the ground.

783
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 1: And then we subsequently stayed overhead doing uh with a

784
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: lot of coordination, that's for sure, because at the time

785
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people didn't want us there. But we

786
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: stayed overhead for a better part of fifteen hours, made

787
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 1: contact with with Gabe Brown, the combat controller on the ground,

788
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: explained who we were, UH, and then proceeded to help

789
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: him as best we could and not inundate him to

790
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 1: include danger close hell fire shots. But I think Gabe

791
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 1: stuck it out there a little bit because I'm not

792
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: sure that the leadership there were convinced that we could

793
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: do it safely, but I think Gabe had confidence, uh

794
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 1: and then did that and UH. You know, Gabe has

795
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: subsequently told me that if we hadn't fired that hell

796
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: fire missile, thought he would have been dead fifteen minutes later. Um.

797
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: So after that, we did everything we could to uh.

798
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: You know, I remember, you know, the s isn't in

799
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 1: the Air Force doctrine book, but I told my guys,

800
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: I said, we I want I want bombs on that

801
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: mountain all night. I don't care what it is. I said,

802
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: clear friendlies from it, and just just so that the

803
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:18,399
Speaker 1: friendlies on the ground though, that air power storeal above them,

804
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: and that that the bad guys know that there's air

805
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: power still above them and they're looking to it. So

806
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: we we buddy lays for other aircraft, to include some

807
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:33,240
Speaker 1: French aircraft, and uh uh stayed overhead until those guys

808
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: were finally yes, off the mountain. Yeah. I remember there

809
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: was a portion in the book where you know, Gay

810
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: Brown was he was probably juggling all kinds of air

811
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: apps that's you know, uh at the same time and

812
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: he mentioned you guys. He says, I don't know even

813
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing here, but I think he said something to

814
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 1: the extent of I don't even know who the hell

815
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: these guys are, but they've been saving my butt all night.

816
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: So um, that had to have been pretty sweet to

817
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: hear back and you know, for you, for your operators

818
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: and your you know guys back at headquarters. Oh yeah,

819
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: it's still emotional to this day. I got to got

820
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: a chance to myself to finally see Gabe in person

821
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: at John Chapman's Middle of Warner ceremony at the Air

822
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 1: Force Memorial. So and he's a lieutenant colonel now right, Yes, sir, yeah,

823
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 1: and at that time he was a staff startin YEP,

824
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: so he's made it up through the ranks. And I

825
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: remember reading that that entire story and it's it's a

826
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: tremendous story before I even knew about your guys involvement

827
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: in that. I mean hearing the story from their perspective

828
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: on the ground and then reading your guys story, it's

829
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 1: it's an amazing feat. I think it shows the best

830
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: of what we are as Americans. And it, uh, it

831
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:09,919
Speaker 1: was an amazing, an amazing night, I guess for those

832
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: guys and the fact that he got them through it

833
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,919
Speaker 1: and was able to save all those guys and they

834
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 1: finally got their people off the mountain. And you know,

835
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: reading the book about how al Qaeda tried to you know,

836
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: reinforce and they were bombing them all night long, it's

837
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 1: it's uh, it was a moving part of the book

838
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: for sure. And then and Steve, there was a there

839
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: was a remarkable part to that story as well. The

840
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 1: duration of this was was such a long thing. Like

841
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 1: you say, it was going on all night, and of

842
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: course aircraft are constrained by fuel um and you know,

843
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: while predators got a long, long lifetime comparatively, it's still finite.

844
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 1: And these guys did something else during that night that

845
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: was an amazing thing is that while the first predator

846
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 1: was over target area and the crew was learning everything

847
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 1: and getting it all, a second cruise flying a second

848
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: predator in on target. So by the time the first

849
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 1: one was hitting that bingo point that it had to

850
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 1: turn around and fly out, the two crews literally did

851
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: a Chinese fire drill, if you will, running out of

852
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: one GCS running to the other so that they you

853
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,479
Speaker 1: know it, metaphorically, the pilot's passing as plane pass leaped

854
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: from one plane to the other. So the crew that

855
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 1: had all the on ground experience and eyes on suddenly

856
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: had a fresh plane with fresh fuel because they've made

857
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: a promise to him. They said, we're gonna stay here

858
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 1: with you guys till we get you off that thing.

859
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: And because again because of the uniqueness of what predator was,

860
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 1: they were able to keep that promise. That's a great point.

861
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: And I've been remiss. Uh when you guys wrote the

862
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: book and years later, you're author is also with us. Michael,

863
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: Michael Marks is here with us, and uh that was

864
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: Michael just spoke, So, uh, we're gonna get I'm gonna

865
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: ask you another question here in a minute, Michael, But

866
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: I wanted to go right back to the guys and

867
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: you all met years later at the Air and Space Museum,

868
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 1: and your original predator is now in the Smithsonian Air

869
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: and Space Museum. Is that correct? Yeah? We Uh, I'm

870
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: I think maybe even as if it wasn't the next

871
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 1: year after I had left in two thousand and two,

872
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 1: but pretty close to that, I kind of started, uh

873
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: uh send down email every night eleven everybody I had

874
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: a email address for on the team. And then we

875
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: years later, Um, we decided to do reunions every now

876
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 1: and then, and we finally got a chance to to

877
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: do one there at the Air and Space Museum. So

878
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: that was uh kind of kind of interesting. Uh. You know,

879
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:07,800
Speaker 1: we all got a little a little heavier, a little

880
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: grayer except for Alec and uh and uh it's kind

881
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: of been a tradition for us, uh since then. So

882
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 1: you guys decided to write a book after you were retired.

883
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: I remember reading that part of it. Um, how long

884
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: did this take before you actually started putting pen to paper.

885
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: I know it took a long time to get it

886
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: clear by the agency. But how long did it take

887
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: the you know, put this all together? And how did

888
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: you guys come to meet Michael? I'll start that one out.

889
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: It was actually Mark Mark and I joked that we

890
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 1: need to be sharing a jail cell together one day,

891
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: or write a book together one day, And luckily we

892
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:02,479
Speaker 1: wrote a book. Um. But the the we started pulling

893
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 1: together notes years ago. UM, but I wanted to wait

894
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: until you know, Mark was retired. We wanted to wait

895
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 1: until you know the relevance of the t GPS, the

896
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: tactic technique procedures were using and two thousand, two thousand one,

897
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: we're closer to history than than than day to day

898
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 1: operations and um. And as we started pulling notes together,

899
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: we realized that we were trending towards a fairly dry,

900
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 1: academic textbook approach to telling a little piece of history. UM.

901
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 1: And you know Michael, who I had been working with

902
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: at that point for a couple of years. Um, you know,

903
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: it was he was a brother right right off the right,

904
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: right out of the gate. When when we met and Mark,

905
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: Mark asked me, He's like, are we are as anybody

906
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: could be interested in publishing the book or reading this book?

907
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,439
Speaker 1: And I think we accepted the NS was probably gonna

908
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: be no um and holding Uh Michael who who had

909
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: who had done some writing, and I mean the writing

910
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: part at that point was was really his purdon. Uh.

911
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: You know, Mark and I had had the notes to

912
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: start them, but we started telling stories and and you

913
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: know the Michael's credit even during the reunions that that

914
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 1: Mark was talking about a minute ago. Um, you know,

915
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: Michael attended one uh I don't know, probably four years

916
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: ago now and started interviewing other members of the team.

917
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 1: Um and uh it came together. You know, we set

918
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: kind of a beginning and a cut off for the

919
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: for the period of the book and uh, um, you

920
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 1: know it was it was a daunting process for uh,

921
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: certainly for me and probably for Mark, and I think

922
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 1: Mike made it look easy. Well, Michael, um asking you,

923
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 1: I mean, there were so many people involved in this.

924
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 1: How difficult was it to put all this together? And

925
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: let's like, uh, Alec was just saying, I mean a

926
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,439
Speaker 1: lot of it could have ended up being very dry

927
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: technical stuff, but you leave the story around all of

928
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 1: this and made it. I'm like I said at the

929
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: outside of the podcast, this was a page turner. How difficult,

930
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: was it from your perspective? You know what, it really

931
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: wasn't very difficult at all if you look. You know,

932
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: history is made up of facts, but stories are made

933
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 1: up of people. And Alec and Mark both out of

934
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 1: the gate said, listen, this is you know, we're not

935
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: we're not trying to tell a story of how a

936
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 1: bunch of carbon fire burn, aluminum and titanium parts went together.

937
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 1: This is this is the people. And they said, you know,

938
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: we want to make sure that these this group of

939
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 1: patriots is recognized. And there was a lot of about

940
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 1: love and affection and brotherhood and all this, and they

941
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 1: were so passionate about it. And then I got to

942
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 1: meet the rest of the crew and they were all

943
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: the same, you're sitting I was sitting here at a

944
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 1: reunion and I got, you know, a dozen folks sitting

945
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: around me in a circle, and any one person given

946
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: the chance to, you know, kind of soak up the

947
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: limelight for a minute. The first thing they said is, oh,

948
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: I was just lying the plane. This guy was lazing

949
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: but the laser guys going, oh no, I was just

950
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 1: doing that. But you know, the colms that were coming,

951
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: I mean, everybody was just handing off the ball, and

952
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: it felt very much to me like that uh sort

953
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: of sentiment that you harken back to, like a band

954
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 1: of brothers kind of feeling. And I said, you know,

955
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 1: what all I gotta do is be honest about this.

956
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 1: Tell the story in the in the first person. Tell

957
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 1: it through the voices of Alec and Mark, because that

958
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: seemed kind of interesting as you listen to it, and

959
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 1: particularly sometimes when the you know, they're both talking about

960
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 1: the same moment, but they're talking about it from two

961
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: completely opposite side, the agency side versus the Air Force side.

962
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 1: But I said, you know this is this is, at

963
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 1: least for me, what I felt the real challenge and

964
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: and what what I thought I could bring to it

965
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: was was trying to let people experience the story the

966
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: way I was. To feel like you're sitting around in

967
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 1: a circle, you know, everybody drinking beers, and go tell

968
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 1: the tell the story about the mirage, you tell about

969
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 1: Lucky the dog and it. It was such a wonderful opportunity.

970
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that was I don't want to give

971
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 1: too much of the book away because I want to

972
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:38,440
Speaker 1: promote it so our readers will buy it, but that

973
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 1: was a great part of the story. I couldn't stop

974
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 1: laughing over that, because, yeah, that was an aptly named dog,

975
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 1: wasn't it lucky? It absolutely was. So it was. It

976
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: was a great opportunity, and my hope was that people

977
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: would come away from the book feeling like I did,

978
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 1: like that I got a chance to get to know

979
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 1: some of these great people and you know see that

980
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,160
Speaker 1: they're just humble patriots to all of them. Said, Look,

981
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: all I did is did my job. And some of

982
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: the some of the fun characters, I mean, the the Mark,

983
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: you could you could share the Cliffy story on the

984
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 1: is this thing working? Was? The rain was pouring down

985
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 1: on the device and you know things, I mean, these

986
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 1: these things that are as far from a Jason Bourne

987
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 1: movie you could possibly be. Yeah, I thought, you know,

988
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 1: part of the I thought part of the the pull

989
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 1: of the book was all this is going on. You

990
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 1: have all these people involved in they're vastly different perspectives

991
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 1: because they're having to deal with different things, and you

992
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 1: you were able to weave that all together. But I

993
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 1: thought there was an excellent job on your part. I

994
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 1: thought it was a great book and I highly recommend

995
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 1: this to all of our listeners and readers out there.

996
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 1: Thank you. Um fellas, Is there is there anything coming

997
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: up with the book where you guys are making I

998
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 1: know with the COVID. Is there any appearances you guys

999
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:18,440
Speaker 1: are making on this? Yeah, now you've pet the source subject.

1000
01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: You know, releasing a book during coronavirus may not be

1001
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 1: you know, the best, the best the choices. But after

1002
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: waiting four years, we weren't. We weren't interested in letting

1003
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 1: it setting the bark any longer. UM. You know, we

1004
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 1: we do have, but we don't have anything that that

1005
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 1: is hard on the calendar. But you know, we've had

1006
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 1: we've had some discussions with the Smithsonian and we're definitely

1007
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 1: eager to get in. You know, the the the aircraft

1008
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:46,920
Speaker 1: that's hanging is tail number thirty four. It's it's one

1009
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 1: that we flew UM and that that that's just you know,

1010
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 1: the great center point for UH, for the story and

1011
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 1: the history and the aircraft is exactly where it belongs.

1012
01:04:57,760 --> 01:04:59,959
Speaker 1: And you know, if if for nothing else, we're gonna

1013
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 1: get there and and at least get some get some pictures. UM.

1014
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:08,120
Speaker 1: But we also have interest in getting to UM the

1015
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 1: Air Force Museum being able to being able to do

1016
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 1: the same thing. Uh. There there's uh, you know, there's

1017
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 1: there's a great piece on Robert's Ridge operation Anaconda. Um,

1018
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 1: and I think we potentially could add a couple of

1019
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 1: clarifying comments to h to that story as it's as

1020
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: it's articulated there now. But that's another venue that that

1021
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: we're looking at. Um. And you know, really, anytime we

1022
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 1: can get any of the team together for the for

1023
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 1: the next reunion, we're going to declare that to be

1024
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 1: our our in person kicked off. But everything else is

1025
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 1: just kind of constrained until we can start moving around

1026
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 1: a little bit more. Yeah, hopefully that will be risk soon. Um. Well, anyway, uh, fellows,

1027
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 1: thank you very much. We really appreciate you taking the

1028
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: time with us this afternoon. Like I said, I wanted

1029
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 1: to discuss the book and at length, but I didn't

1030
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 1: want to give too much of it away because we

1031
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 1: want our our readers and listeners to go out there

1032
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 1: and buy it and uh and support you all for that.

1033
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 1: And but it was a tremendous story and we we

1034
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 1: thank you all three of you for taking the time

1035
01:06:19,120 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 1: with us this afternoon. Oh, it was our pleasure. But

1036
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:26,439
Speaker 1: before we go, I just need to read something real

1037
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:29,960
Speaker 1: quick for us. Uh. If you want to get SOFTWAREPP

1038
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 1: on your phone, download our free mobile app and get

1039
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 1: easy access to our articles, podcasts and gear reviews, all

1040
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 1: perfectly formatted to your device. Please subscribe to software dot

1041
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 1: com to get access to our library of e books

1042
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 1: and our exclusive team room forms content and it's available

1043
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 1: on all of your Apple and Android devices. Um. Yeah,

1044
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 1: we want to thank everyone for listening this afternoon, and

1045
01:06:56,520 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 1: especially our three guests, Mark Coruiter, alec Or Barber and

1046
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 1: uh Michael Parks for joining us this afternoon. It was

1047
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 1: a fantastic book. It's a great story. H Hats off

1048
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 1: to all of you. Thank you for your service, Thank

1049
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:14,479
Speaker 1: you for what you did for our fellow warriors out there,

1050
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 1: and God bless and thanks again for taking the time

1051
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: and talking to us this afternoon and you know, filling

1052
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:26,760
Speaker 1: in our listeners on your piece of the story now.

1053
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:28,720
Speaker 1: Thank thank you, thank you for what you do, and

1054
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: thanks to your listeners for what they do. We appreciate

1055
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 1: it absolutely for all of us here AT's Software Radio, myself,

1056
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 1: Steve Bob Story, all of our guests here, thanks for listening.

1057
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 1: We'll be back with another podcast real soon. We've been

1058
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 1: listening to Self Red Ladia