1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Hey fam, Hello Sunshine. 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 2: Today on the bright Side, we're joined by author and 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 2: journalist Anna Goldfarb. She's been called the New York Times 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 2: friendship correspondent. We'll dig into what we're getting wrong about friendship, 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 2: what we're getting right, and why now is actually the 6 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: best time ever to be a friend. It's Tuesday, July second. 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: I'm Danielle Robe. 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 3: And I'm Simone Boyce and this is the bright Side 9 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 3: from Hello Sunshine, Samon. We're talking friendship today. I'm excited. Yes, 10 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 3: I'm so excited too. This is our favorite topic. 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: It really is. 12 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 2: And there's a reason we call you our bright Side besties. 13 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 2: We love friendship and so we are here with an 14 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 2: expert today. 15 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: Our guest is Anna Goldfarb. 16 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: She's written extensively about friendships and relationships for The New 17 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, the list goes on. 18 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 2: But she's also the author of Modern Friendship, How to 19 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: Nurture Our Most Valued Connections. And it's a book that 20 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: she actually started working on right after experiencing some friendship 21 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: breakups in her thirties, some unexpected friendship breakups. 22 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 4: You know. 23 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 3: My friend says that every woman's Roman Empire is a 24 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 3: friendship breakup, Like that's the thing that we play in 25 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 3: our head all the time. Like men maybe think about 26 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 3: the actual Roman Empire. Well, women think about that friendship 27 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 3: that just soured and you had this really painful severing 28 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 3: process and you're still not over it. 29 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: I think there's so much truth to that. 30 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: I had a friendship breakup the day before I started 31 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: high school, so going into ninth grade, and I was 32 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: wrecked over it. 33 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:40,919 Speaker 1: I still think about it today. 34 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: Does it seem worthy the cause when you look back 35 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 3: on it now, does it still seem like, oh, yeah, 36 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 3: we should have broken up over that. 37 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: I don't even remember what the cause was. I don't 38 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: know that I got the real answer from her. I 39 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: don't think we were mature enough to like have that moment. 40 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's still her. 41 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: We're in each other's lives now today, like wext you know, 42 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 2: once or twice a year, just checking in. 43 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: But do you think about any of those those breakups? 44 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: I do. 45 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 3: There's one friendship breakup that happened to me when I 46 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 3: was a new mom, and it was a new mom 47 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 3: friend that meant a lot to me, and it was 48 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 3: really hard at the time. It's stung for a while, 49 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 3: but I think time heals all wounds, and I think 50 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 3: that I think about it a lot less today, and 51 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: when I do think about it, I'm like, huh, maybe 52 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 3: that was for the better, you know, maybe it wasn't 53 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 3: supposed to work out. But I'm always down to talk 54 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 3: about this because it's so relatable. It's something that we 55 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 3: all experience, and honestly, it's something that never goes away, 56 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 3: even as you get older. I hear my mom talking 57 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 3: about friendships that she I think needs to break up with. 58 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 3: So it is a universal conundrum. And Danielle she covers 59 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 3: so much ground in her work, which I think is 60 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 3: really refreshing. Not just the breakups, but how do you 61 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 3: revive friendships? Like what does reconciliation look like? How do 62 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 3: we continue to connect with people as we get older 63 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 3: and we move through these different life stages. And as 64 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: a journalist, some of her most popular articles have been 65 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 3: about maintaining friendships, connecting with coworkers, and even dealing with 66 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 3: a friendship quiet season. 67 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of that? I actually feel like 68 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: I have. 69 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 3: Quiet seasons with friendships probably every three months. 70 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 2: What do you mean by that? Like you go in 71 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 2: and out of being an active friend. 72 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 3: This is a great question, and I think we need 73 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 3: to ask her what does a quiet season actually mean? 74 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 3: But if I were to take a guess, it means 75 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 3: you're going through a period where you're not as socially active. 76 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 3: Maybe you're not able to make as much time for 77 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 3: your friends as you would like. And I definitely go 78 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 3: through periods like that, Like I either respond to your 79 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 3: text in three minutes or three weeks, and sometimes it's 80 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 3: going to be three weeks, depending on what life looks 81 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 3: like at that time. 82 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: How about you, for sure? 83 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: I think it depends on what's going on in your life. 84 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 2: And I feel with all relationships, like there's moments where 85 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 2: I'm being such an active sister or daughter, and there's 86 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: moments where I'm like, Wow, I really suck right now. 87 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: But I've read a lot of Anna's pieces and she 88 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 2: said that we actually have to get rid of that guilt. 89 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,559 Speaker 2: So I'm excited to ask her about that today because 90 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 2: I would love to release some of my guilt. 91 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 3: I'm so glad you brought that up, Danielle, because getting 92 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 3: rid of guilt is something that I am working on 93 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 3: right now. Well, Anna's touching on so much of this 94 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 3: in her writing and her book. But there's actually another 95 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 3: really touching reason that she wrote her book. She wanted 96 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 3: to help honor her dad after he passed away because 97 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 3: her dad had this longtime friend that he wanted to 98 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 3: reconnect with, but she said he was always too anxious. 99 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: To actually do it. 100 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 2: And after his passing, Anna learned that that friend felt 101 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 2: the same way. And so she called that experience a 102 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: turning point for her and part of the inspiration for 103 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 2: her book. And we have to dig into that because, like, 104 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 2: what a beautiful inspiration story for all of us. 105 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 3: That is so heartbreaking to hear. It honestly makes me 106 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 3: want to cry. I want to avoid that at all costs. 107 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 3: I want to figure out, like how do I live 108 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 3: a life that I can be proud of when it 109 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: comes to my relationships and friendships. 110 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: What a beautiful story. 111 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: Well that's why we're here today. We're gonna dig into friendships. 112 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 2: We're getting into all things friendship with Anna Goldfarb. That's 113 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 2: right after the break, stay with. 114 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 4: Us, Anna, Welcome to the bright Side. 115 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. 116 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: Well, we're so excited to talk friendship with you. 117 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: And you know, my great grandmother lived until she was 118 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: one hundred and one years old, and in her late nineties, 119 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 2: I would call her and ask how she was, and. 120 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: Without a doubt, she would talk. 121 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 2: To me about the drama at her lunch table or 122 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: her friends at her bridge game. 123 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: And I realize that whether we are. 124 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 2: In our twenties or in our late nineties, we are 125 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: all trying to navigate friendship. And you have been dubbed 126 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: the New York Times friendship corresponding. I can't imagine that 127 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: you grow into a title like that without struggling and 128 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 2: navigating connection yourself. Why did you start writing about friendship? 129 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 5: I started reporting on friendships in like twenty seventeen, and 130 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 5: I had no idea friendship experts were even a thing 131 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 5: like that. That blew my mind that it was someone's 132 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 5: job to analyze friendships and translate friendship trends, and that. 133 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: Just was like what. 134 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 5: I had no idea. And the more I learned about 135 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 5: friendships and how they work, the more questions I had. 136 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 5: And with the pandemic, it was this incredible opportunity where 137 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 5: everyone was re imagining their friendships at once, which is 138 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 5: historically wild. I mean, normally, we have our own dramas, 139 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 5: our own hiccups and we're trying to feel around in 140 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 5: the dark for how to move through them. But to 141 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 5: have this opportunity where everyone was like, well, how does 142 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 5: this work? How do we live in a world where 143 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 5: seeing a friend could be literally life or death? So 144 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 5: I just dove in, and a lot of the advice 145 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 5: around the lockdown, if you remember, was reach out to 146 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 5: that friend, like send that message, send that email. And 147 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 5: I wrote an article for The Times saying should you 148 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 5: reach out to that friend right now? Because part of 149 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 5: my thinking was, well, why haven't you been in touch, 150 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 5: Like why has there been this lapse in your friendship? 151 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 5: Let's take a look at what's going on here? And 152 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 5: those kinds of articles got me the most excited because 153 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 5: I just felt like there was a real hunger for 154 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 5: this knowledge. This was like questions that people had but 155 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 5: didn't think to articulate so or maybe they did fight 156 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 5: and hear it. So I hope to illuminate what these 157 00:07:59,000 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 5: issues are. 158 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 3: Anna, what's the article that you've written that you get 159 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 3: the most engagement from. 160 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 5: Let me think, Well, one of the ones I love 161 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 5: the most was how to handle a quiet season in 162 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 5: a friendship? And I thought it was such a poetic 163 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 5: way to talk about the rolls that we have in 164 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 5: our friendship and you know, we it's so easy to 165 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 5: generate a narrative with very little information, so I wanted 166 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 5: to dive into that, like why do we fill in 167 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 5: the gaps with our silences from our friends? And how 168 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 5: do we handle it? Do you confront them? Do you 169 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 5: ask them? Do you just hide in a hole and 170 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 5: like hope things change? I mean, how do you handle 171 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 5: the quiet season? And part of that was, you know, 172 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 5: people always say friendship's last a reason or a season 173 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 5: or a lifetime, and I hate that. I honestly hate 174 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 5: it because I'm like, well, why why is it a season? 175 00:08:58,120 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: Why is it? 176 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 5: Why is one friend whip lifetime and one a season? 177 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 5: Like tell me more old adage, Like I feel like 178 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 5: you're missing some steps here. So that was part of 179 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 5: the reason I wanted to write this book, was to 180 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 5: really unravel, like what's going on here? 181 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 3: We do hear that often that friendships are made for 182 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 3: a certain season of life, and you've actually written a 183 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 3: lot about friendship breakups. 184 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 5: I mean, that's part of why I'm obsessed with friendship, 185 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 5: because I have a busted, tattered trail of friendships where 186 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 5: I didn't know if it was my issue, was I 187 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 5: flubbing the brief? Was it their issue? Is it just 188 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 5: living in America in twenty twenty four? Like, is it 189 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 5: that our culture friendships are so precarious nowadays? I mean, 190 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 5: it's so easy to break up with friends. That's because 191 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:54,359 Speaker 5: our friendships are mostly based on interests. They're based on passions, 192 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 5: and our passions change, our priorities change, so our friendships 193 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 5: are like part of that, and they're part of that mix. Actually, 194 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 5: studies show that we lose half of our friendships every 195 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 5: seven years. And that's such a staggering stat It's like, 196 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 5: oh my god, are we just monsters and ogres moving 197 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 5: through life like cutting down our friendships left and right. 198 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 5: But when I learned more about it, it's actually, I 199 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 5: thought something beautiful. Because we change, we grow, we evolve, 200 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 5: and we seek out people who meet us where our 201 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 5: changing interests lie. 202 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: That's so interesting. You're taking the guilt out of it all. 203 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm like, please don't be guilty. It's really really hard, 204 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 5: you know. I spent a lot of time in my 205 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 5: book going over our culture and talking about how we 206 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 5: live in a hyper fluid society now and this is 207 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 5: historically new. It's very different than our grandparents and great grandparents, 208 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 5: whose social lives were more like an oak tree, where 209 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 5: they had deep roots and they basically stayed in the 210 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 5: same town. They didn't have to try very hard to 211 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 5: keep their friendships gone. They had these other institutions that 212 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 5: helped keep these give a framework for these friendships to 213 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 5: practice in. But we live in a society that's more 214 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 5: like a bicycle wheel where we're in the middle, and 215 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 5: we have these groups of friends from childhood, from high school, 216 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 5: from college if you went to college, from your first job, 217 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 5: your second job, and they only share common history with us, 218 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 5: not with each other. So the burden has shifted onto 219 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 5: us to come up with reasons to keep a friendship active. 220 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 5: So there has been this big shift in personal responsibility 221 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 5: to keep these friendships going. And we don't have any help. 222 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 5: We don't have an institution. That's like we're throwing an 223 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 5: ice cream social on Sunday. You just literally show up. 224 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 5: You have to spend no energy of But when are 225 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 5: we going to get together again? It is not in 226 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 5: our imagination. It is much much harder to keep friendships 227 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 5: these days. 228 00:11:58,240 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. 229 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: I read this book book by Robert Putnam called Bowling Alone, 230 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: and it's about like the individualization about American society. And 231 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: that's what you're talking about, Like there used to be 232 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 2: bowling clubs on Wednesday nights where people would gather, so 233 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 2: I've never thought about that. But it is harder to gather. 234 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: There is more work that goes into it. I guess 235 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 2: I understand the title of your book now more, which 236 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 2: is Modern Friendship, and you say it's a guide to 237 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 2: creating wholehearted relationships. What makes a wholehearted friendship? 238 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 5: You know? I wanted a word to describe the kind 239 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 5: of friend I wanted to be, and I really couldn't 240 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 5: think of anything. I'm like, a good friend, a great friend, 241 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 5: like it wasn't descriptive enough for me. And wholehearted means dedicated, committed, 242 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 5: and enthusiastic, and I'm like, that's it. That's the kind 243 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 5: of friend I want to be to my favorite friends. 244 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 5: I want them to think of me like that. So 245 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 5: I developed a paradigm called wholehearted friendship because I was 246 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 5: noticing a disconnect. If I wanted to love my friends, 247 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 5: I wanted to support my friends, but they didn't feel 248 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 5: loved or supported and I based this paradigm around the 249 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 5: study by doctor Jeffrey A. 250 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: Hall. 251 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 5: He's a professor of communication in Kansas, and he found 252 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 5: that it takes two hundred hours of shared time to 253 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 5: go from stranger to close friend. That's a lot of time. 254 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 5: Two hundred ho that's a lot of time. But we 255 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 5: have that time when we're younger, when we aren't as 256 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 5: many things do as many people. You know, what are 257 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 5: our roles? We're like a child, a student, a grandkid maybe, 258 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 5: like there's not much pulling on our time. But once 259 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 5: we reach thirty, our friendships fall off a cliff. But 260 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 5: that's because we become more things to more people. Then 261 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 5: you become a spouse maybe, or you're a significant other, 262 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 5: you become an employee, you become maybe a daughter in law, 263 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 5: an auntie, Like, there's all these other roles that take 264 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 5: a lot of time. So who do we spend time with? 265 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 5: That's that's what wholehearted friendship's about. It's three d's desire, 266 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 5: diligence and delight. And desire is who am I yearning 267 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 5: to spend time with? Diligence is who do I prioritize 268 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 5: spending time with? And delight is who do I actually 269 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 5: enjoy this time I'm spending with and those three things. 270 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 5: It's all based on time, because friendships are time. They're 271 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 5: a story of time. 272 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 3: The delight part is so huge for me. I decided 273 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: a few years ago that I'm not doing pity hangs anymore. 274 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 3: I know that might sound harsh, but if you don't 275 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 3: delight me while we're hanging out and vice versa, if 276 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 3: I'm not delighting you, what are we doing this for? 277 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 3: You know, like, let's not waste anyone's time here. We 278 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 3: should be making the most of the time that we 279 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 3: spend with each other, because you're right, we become so 280 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 3: many things to so many different people in that time 281 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 3: diminishes as we get older. 282 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: So you have this analogy about fitting friends into groups, 283 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: and I love that they're aquatic theme. Do you say 284 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: friendships are supposed to fit into a bathtobe, a jacuzzi, 285 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: or a swimming pool? Can you break each of those 286 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: down for us? 287 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 4: Yeah? 288 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 5: Absolutely. These numbers are based on Robin Dunbar's finding. He's 289 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 5: a British anthropologist. He is wonderful. He's done a lot 290 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 5: of work in social groups and I rebranded these groups 291 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 5: to highlight how fluid they are. Our friendships are very fluid. 292 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 5: They can go from really intense to less intense all 293 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 5: the time for any reason. So the innermost here is 294 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 5: what I call the bathtub because it's really small, not 295 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 5: too many people fit in it. For men, it's usually 296 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 5: one other person in their bathtub. It's usually their significant other. 297 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 5: For women, it's usually two people. It's their significant other 298 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 5: and a best friend. So right there is showing like 299 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 5: the gender differences between how we practice friendships. The next 300 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 5: tier is your jacuzzi, and that's because there's three to 301 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 5: five people and perfect size for a jacuzzi. And these 302 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 5: are the people you'd think in an Academy award speech. 303 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 5: These are the people you'd call, you know, if you 304 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 5: had great news, if you had scary news. This is 305 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 5: your closest support group. And then the outer tier from 306 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 5: there is your swimming pool, and that's ten to fifteen people. 307 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 5: Those are the people you'd house it for, maybe coworker, 308 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 5: favorite coworkers, maybe people you'd double date with. And this 309 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 5: is what a social life should look like ideally. And 310 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 5: I want to give a caveat that when you are 311 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 5: going through a huge milestone change, you may not have 312 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 5: the bandwidth to nurture three to five close friendships, like 313 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 5: if you're you just had a baby, you just lost 314 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 5: a job, you're going through a depression, Like it's okay 315 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 5: if you don't have them at the moment, but hopefully 316 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 5: you don't stay there. That this is the ideal, This 317 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 5: is something to work towards. 318 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 3: I love those analogies. It's so easy to visualize them. 319 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 3: I love thinking about it that way. So thank you 320 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 3: for that framework. 321 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: We need to take a quick break, but we'll be 322 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: right back talking about friendship with Anna Goldfarb. 323 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: And we're back. 324 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 3: Okay, Anna, let's talk about the Golden age of friendship? 325 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? Are we in it 326 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: right now? 327 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 5: I wrote an op ed for the Washington Post about this, 328 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 5: that we should be in the Golden age of friendship, 329 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 5: but we're not. It's so easy to reach out to people, 330 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 5: you know, time and distance are no longer a factor. 331 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 5: We can just reach out to anyone at any time. 332 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: But we don't. 333 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 5: We know, my phone is full of people that I love, 334 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 5: but I don't reach out to them very often. So like, 335 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 5: what's going on here? And here's what I learned. Our 336 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 5: social life nowadays is like a supermarket. And you know, 337 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 5: when you're starving and you try to go shopping and 338 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 5: you add the most random stuff to your cart, like, 339 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 5: you know, mazzarella sticks from the hot bar, you know, 340 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 5: maybe like a random sandwich from the deli. Like you 341 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 5: just put whatever your cravings are screaming for in your cart, 342 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 5: and then you check out and you're like, how am 343 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 5: I going to make a meal out of any of 344 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 5: these random things I've just put in this cart. Now, 345 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 5: imagine grocery shopping when you're full and you have a 346 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 5: list and you know exactly what belongs in your cart, 347 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 5: and going food shopping isn't so overwhelming, and you make 348 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 5: better choices. And that's what our lives are like today. 349 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 5: Our friendships are a supermarket. And here's what I mean. 350 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 5: When you go on social media and you see a 351 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 5: feed of all of these people that you know that 352 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 5: only have common history with you, not with each other, 353 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 5: it's really overwhelming. It's like, Oh, that's my old coworker. 354 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 5: Oh she just moved. Oh I guess I missed. I 355 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 5: wonder how she's doing. And you get distracted by all 356 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 5: these all these thoughts, and it's really hard to feel 357 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 5: full and feel craving, you feel longing, you feel comparison, 358 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 5: like it's just it's a bad time. But if you 359 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 5: go and you know who belongs in your cart, if 360 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 5: you map out these are the three to five friends 361 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 5: that I'm committing to being a wonderful, wholehearted friend to, 362 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 5: you don't have that hunger. You're not scrambling to figure 363 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 5: out like how do I keep these friendships spinning? How 364 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 5: do I keep it afloat? And that's what we need. 365 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 5: We need to be more intentional with who we commit to, 366 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 5: with who we extend interest to. So that's the conversation 367 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 5: I want to have is we can have the golden 368 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 5: age of friendship. We just have to have a strategy. 369 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 2: How about when somebody is not reciprocal, when they're not 370 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 2: a great teammate for you, how long do you let 371 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: that slide? People are you know, have seasons throughout their lives, 372 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: say they're not a great teammate for three months, six months, 373 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 2: one year. At what point are they not a great 374 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 2: teammate in general? 375 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 5: Well, I would say to understand what the clear and 376 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 5: compelling about is of the friendship, Like why are we 377 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 5: why do I want to fight for this friendship or 378 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 5: not is the about really compelling to us? And I also, 379 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 5: as I've learned more about friendships, I've raised my standards 380 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 5: for someone to be in my jacuzzi as someone I've 381 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 5: known a long time years. I see them with their 382 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 5: other other friendships. I see what kind of person they are, 383 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 5: so I feel more confident that this is someone I 384 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 5: want to keep close and I want to keep around. 385 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 5: But if friendships need to be well, it's actually okay. 386 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 5: If they're not always reciprocal, that's not a bad thing. 387 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 5: It's only bad if someone feels negatively about it, someone's 388 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 5: not feeling great. Because sometimes we're busy at work and 389 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 5: it's great that a friend reaches out more. And sometimes 390 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 5: you know, we're the ones who have a little more 391 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 5: bandwidth and can reach out more and initiate more and 392 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 5: our friends can't. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But 393 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 5: if the friendship isn't feeling aligned, then you definitely can 394 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 5: shuffle them to the outer edges and just move your 395 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 5: energy elsewhere. I'm not really a fan of like a 396 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 5: huge speech unless something happened, like a betrayal or something catastrophic. 397 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 5: I'm happy to just let friendships like put them on 398 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 5: pause rather than just end them, and that can help 399 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 5: me feel less intense about it, Like, you know, I'm 400 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 5: just gonna pause this friendship. Let's see if we can 401 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 5: pick up later. Because I've always been surprised about my friendships. 402 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 5: I don't know if this happens with you guys, but 403 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 5: sometimes I think our friendship is like dead and gone 404 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 5: and buried, and then I hear from them in a 405 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 5: few years and we actually pick up and we've evolved, 406 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 5: and it's been really surprising and a delight of Oh. 407 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 5: I didn't think the friendship was going anywhere. I'm not 408 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 5: all knowing. I'm open to being wrong, I'm open to change. 409 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 5: But that's what I would encourage, is like, maybe your 410 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 5: friendship needs a pause, but it doesn't mean that you 411 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 5: need to have like a dramatic ending. It's just like, Okay, 412 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 5: I recognize that this isn't feeling great, So let's go 413 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 5: back to the basics. What's our about? Like, is the 414 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 5: about clear and compelling and go from there. 415 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 2: I love that you mentioned the passage of time because 416 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: I was so moved by the story of friendship that 417 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: you shared about your late dad. Will you share it 418 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 2: with everybody? 419 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: Yeah? Thank you? 420 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 5: For giving me the opportunity to share the story I 421 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 5: talked about in the beginning, how I've been reporting on friendship. 422 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 5: And in June twenty twenty, I had just written a 423 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 5: story should you reach out to that friend? Which we 424 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 5: talked about, and I went to visit my parents. You know, 425 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 5: the COVID was raging, So we're outside in their back 426 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 5: porch and my dad said that reading my article opened 427 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 5: up an old wound in him and it made him 428 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 5: think of his childhood friend Marty. And he didn't know 429 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 5: why he stopped talking to Marty. It had been like 430 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 5: ten or fifteen years and he really missed him, but 431 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 5: he didn't know. He was scared of reaching out. He 432 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 5: was scared of rejection. He was anxious of like what 433 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 5: if he ignores me? And of course I'm a journalist. 434 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 5: I'm like, Dad, let me help, Like, look, here's his 435 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 5: information right here, Like I'll write the message for you, 436 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 5: just say, hey, Marty, you've been on my mind. Do 437 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 5: you want to get a call on Monday? Which isn't 438 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 5: like the most amazing message ever. But they hadn't spoken 439 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 5: in ten years, so I figured it'd be like a start, 440 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 5: and I wanted to I wanted to heal this from 441 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 5: my dad. I wanted to show off, honestly that I 442 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 5: have been writing about friendship, like I can solve this 443 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 5: for you. And I kept pestering him for updates, like 444 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 5: did you reach out? What's up? Did you reach out? 445 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 5: And he never did. He never did. And six months 446 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 5: after we had that conversation, my dad had a serious 447 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 5: infection in his hip and he went to the hospital 448 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 5: for treatment. And while he was in the hospital, he 449 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 5: was exposed to COVID and he contracted COVID and he 450 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 5: deteriorated rapidly since his body was exhausted from fighting the infection, 451 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 5: and three weeks into January twenty twenty one, he passed away. 452 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 5: None of his friends knew that he was sick. My 453 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 5: dad was a scientist, he was a surfer, he volunteered 454 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 5: at the Special Olympics, like he was a great guy. 455 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 5: And he only had four people at his funeral. You know, 456 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 5: my sister couldn't even attend. She lives in Boston and 457 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 5: it wasn't safe for her to come. None of his 458 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 5: grandkids could attend his funeral. And it was just horrific. 459 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 5: I mean it was horrible, and I couldn't I stopped 460 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 5: thinking about Marty, like my mind kept turning to Marty. 461 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 5: And two days after my dad passed away, I reached 462 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 5: out to Marty's son on LinkedIn and said, Hey, I 463 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 5: need to speak with your dad. Could you please put 464 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 5: me in touch. Forty five minutes later I was on 465 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 5: the phone with Marty and he was so happy to 466 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 5: hear from me. He was like, Anna, yeah, Like it's like, 467 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 5: it's like, how are you? What's going on? And you know, 468 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 5: I said, are you are you sitting down? Like are 469 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 5: you somewhere quiet? And he said, yeah, yeah, what's going on? 470 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 5: And I said, you know, my father died two days ago. 471 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 5: And we had a whole conversation about how we wanted 472 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 5: to connect with you and reach out to you. And 473 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 5: he interrupted me and said, I bear responsibility here too. 474 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 5: I could have reached out to him just as easily 475 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 5: as he could have reached out to me. And we 476 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 5: talked for a little bit. He shared stories about growing 477 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 5: up in Queen's with my dad, how they went to 478 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 5: football games and tracked mud into my grandma's house with 479 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 5: her sneakers, which annoyed her, and through tears, he thanked me. 480 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 5: He thanked me for letting him know and just for 481 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 5: the conversation, and I gave Marty the gift of knowing 482 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 5: with certainty that his friendship mattered to my dad. And 483 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 5: I started this because I wanted to be a hero 484 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 5: to my dad. I wanted to solve this for him, 485 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 5: but I ended up healing his friend and letting him 486 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 5: know that their friendship was special and meaningful. And I 487 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 5: wrote this story in the book. This is the introduction. 488 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 5: And once after I talked with Marty, that's when I 489 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 5: knew I wanted to write this book. I wanted to 490 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 5: do something that explained why we talk ourselves out of 491 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 5: connection even though we crave it. And I know that 492 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 5: we all are thinking of that one person that we 493 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,479 Speaker 5: miss and wish that we could reach out to and 494 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 5: connect and have a conversation with. And I just want 495 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 5: I want people to have the tools to understand, like, 496 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 5: here's why you haven't been in touch. 497 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: But it's not hopeless. And that story is so beautiful. 498 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 3: It makes me emotional to think about this idea of 499 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 3: talking ourselves out of connection and how that can limit 500 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 3: us for our entire lives. And we can miss out 501 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 3: on a connection as special as the one that your 502 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 3: father had with Marty. And as you were talking, I 503 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 3: also am thinking about my relationships with some of my 504 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 3: family members and how intentional we must be not only 505 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 3: in our friendships, but in our friendships with family members. 506 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 3: Like I have this really unique situation with my brother. 507 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 3: He's my half brother. We didn't grow up together. I 508 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 3: found out that I had a brother when I was 509 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 3: twenty one years old, so you can imagine it blew 510 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 3: my mind. 511 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: I was an only child. 512 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 3: And there were a lot of complicated situations that led 513 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 3: to that or complicated circumstances, and my brother and I 514 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 3: we had a falling out out early on into our relationship, 515 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 3: like soon after I first met him. We had a 516 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 3: falling out and didn't speak for like four years, and eventually, 517 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 3: thankfully I talked myself into connection with him and we 518 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 3: have a relationship now and it has this really beautiful 519 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 3: redemptive arc that has taught me a lot. And I 520 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 3: know that you've written extensively about your personal relationship, specifically 521 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 3: with your sister, and how that was a big motivation 522 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 3: for your reporting. So how did the work that you 523 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 3: have done on this topic empower you to improve that relationship. 524 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 5: I love that you asked me about this because when 525 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 5: I started reporting on friendships in twenty seventeen, I was 526 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 5: basically estranged from my younger sister. We were really having 527 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 5: a difficult time even getting through a meal, like even 528 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 5: getting through a meal without really bruised feelings and hurt 529 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 5: and just just it was just felt like her it 530 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 5: was pain. And as I learned more about friendship, and 531 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 5: I credit Shasta Nelson, She's like the OG friendship expert, 532 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 5: Shasta taught me that friendships need three things consistency, positivity, 533 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 5: and vulnerability. And I started applying that to my sister. 534 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 5: My sister had just had a kid, and I was 535 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 5: coming to terms with being child free and understanding that, 536 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 5: like I'm it doesn't look like I'm having kids and 537 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 5: I'm adjusting to that, and we just weren't on the 538 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 5: same page. So for consistency, I said, why don't I 539 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 5: come and help you watch your kid every Saturday? 540 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: Let's all? 541 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 5: And then I start coming every Saturday, and like, positivity, 542 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,479 Speaker 5: what can I do? So I started bringing her little gifts, 543 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 5: Like I saw this lip gloss, I thought you'd like, 544 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 5: or here, I know this is your favorite tea, So 545 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 5: I got you a little box Then the last one 546 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 5: was vulnerability because once I started helping and it was 547 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 5: consistent and I was positive, then she started being and 548 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 5: like curious about my life and what are my challenges? 549 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 5: And it was those three things that set us on 550 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 5: the right path and created new habits for us. And 551 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 5: I realized that I was messing up because I had 552 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 5: the volume up on thoughts like why isn't my sister 553 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 5: doing more for me? Why isn't she care or why 554 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 5: isn't she happier for me? And I turned the volume 555 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 5: down on those thoughts, and I turned the volume up 556 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 5: on thoughts like what can I do to help her today? 557 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 5: What can I do to help her? And that was 558 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 5: a game changer. It changed our entire relationship and I 559 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 5: started seeing her for her needs like a person who 560 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 5: just has a kid, as you guys know, is drowning. 561 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 5: You know, one person's not drowning and one person is drowning. 562 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 5: So that's the difference. And my sister. I love her 563 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 5: and she was important to me, and I was at 564 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 5: this moment where I started asking what can I do 565 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 5: to help? What do you need? And honestly she needed 566 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 5: a nap, So I'm like, great, let me come over. 567 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 5: You can take a nap. Every Saturday, I will watch 568 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 5: your kid and go take a nap and just it 569 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 5: doesn't have to be complicated. It was that simple. But 570 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 5: I was meeting her needs. And that's what we can 571 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 5: do for our friends is say, what do you need? 572 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 5: I want to help instead of well, what about me? 573 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 5: What you're not reaching out to me? What about being 574 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 5: happy for me? That thinking didn't get me very far. 575 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 5: She made everyone annoyed at me, and I annoyed myself, honestly, 576 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 5: But now I approach my friendships in the same way 577 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 5: of what can I do to make my friends' lives easier? 578 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 5: What do they need? How can I help? And honestly, 579 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 5: they love being my friend. 580 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: Now. 581 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: The idea of selfless giving is like the cure to everything, 582 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 2: and so that's so cool that you're giving that gift 583 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: to your friends. You know, you've interviewed probably hundreds, if 584 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: not thousands of people at this point on friendship, written 585 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 2: thousands of words on it. 586 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: What's the biggest change that you've made to your friendships? 587 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 5: The biggest changes I've started telling them that I love them. 588 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 5: I didn't grow up in a very affectionate like a 589 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 5: verbal affectionate household my grandma did. My grandma'd be like, 590 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 5: I love you. But you know, my parents like weren't 591 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 5: as free with it. And it still feels a little 592 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 5: risky to start telling my friends I love them. But 593 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 5: I learned actually I wrote an article for the New 594 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 5: York Times about sibling relationships, and one study said that 595 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 5: the number one thing that siblings want to hear is 596 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 5: that I love you more. That we always take our 597 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 5: siblings for granted. And I'm like, I noticed the same 598 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 5: thing with my friendships, Like I don't tell them I 599 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 5: love them enough. And for the friends in my jacuzzi, 600 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 5: like they have a special position, they are in an 601 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 5: elite tier, and I tell them I love them all 602 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 5: the time. Now, I just texted my best friend like 603 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 5: thinking of you, love you, and she's like, love you too, 604 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 5: And there's just no anxiety. Anxiety occurs when there's uncertainty, 605 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 5: and I don't want any uncertainty in my friendships. I 606 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 5: don't want my friends to second guess. You know, is 607 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 5: this friendship important? 608 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: Is? 609 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 5: Does it? An't even care? I'm like, fuck that, I 610 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 5: care a lot. I'm just gonna let you know I'm 611 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 5: in it with you and I love you, and I 612 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 5: appreciate you, and I love our friendships for the following reasons. 613 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 5: And I've just been more effusive because I know our 614 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 5: friends want to hear it. I know it means the 615 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 5: world to them, and they'll be more likely to invest 616 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 5: in my life because they see that I'm you know, 617 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 5: I'm committed. I'm not going anywhere. 618 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 3: Anna, you are such a good friend. Anybody who's friends 619 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 3: with you would be so lucky. 620 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 5: Thank you. 621 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 3: That is abundantly clear from our conversation today. 622 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 5: Thank you. I wasn't always like this. I was a 623 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 5: bit of a cheap skate. I'm not gonna lie. I'm 624 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 5: not like some scene. Are you laughing that I like 625 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 5: just called myself a cheapskate. 626 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: I love the self awareness. 627 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 2: It's amazing because, like we all have evolutions. I don't 628 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 2: think I used to be a good friend. My mom 629 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 2: taught me how to be a good friend later in 630 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 2: life just by watching her. 631 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,439 Speaker 5: I really think our best friendships are ahead of us, 632 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 5: Like we can do this, We can do this. 633 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Anna, Thank you for I love. 634 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 5: Talking with you. 635 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 4: Both. 636 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 5: Obviously a geek about friendship, but I really enjoyed our 637 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 5: conversation thank you for having me on. 638 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 3: Well, you're in such good company because we are geeks 639 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 3: about friendship too here on the bright side. 640 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming on. 641 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 5: Cheers. 642 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 3: Annah Goldfarb is an author and journalist. Her book Modern Friendship, 643 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 3: How to Deepen our most valued connections, can be found 644 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 3: wherever you get your books. 645 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: That's it for today's show. 646 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 2: Tomorrow, we're talking with Jamie kern Lima, the founder of 647 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 2: IT Cosmetics and host of the new podcast, The Jamie 648 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 2: Kern Lima Show. Listen and follow the bright Side on 649 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts wherever you get your podcasts. 650 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: I'm Simone Voice. 651 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 3: You can find me at simone Voice on Instagram and TikTok. 652 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 2: I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok. 653 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: That's r O b A. Y See you tomorrow, folks. 654 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 3: Keep looking on the bright side.