1 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisn't Thal and I'm Tracy Alloway. So Tracy, 3 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: we continue with our bubble series this week. Bubbles. Bubbles 4 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: are just the best, aren't they? Yeah? They are? And 5 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: what's amazing is there are so many of them. Should 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,279 Speaker 1: we just stop doing other non bubble episodes and just 7 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: do bubbles from here on out? Because we probably could, 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: couldn't we? I would be into that. Plus, you know 9 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: new bubbles are being made every day. Yeah, exactly. I 10 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: think we should seriously consider just doing until we've really 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: run out of bubbles, and that will be never um. 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: But today I'm I'm particularly excited because we're going to 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: be talking about a bubble in which I was an 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: active and enthusiastic participant. Okay, wait, I know you dabbled 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: in trade tech stocks in the late ninety nineties, and that, 16 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: of course was a huge bubble. Is it? It's not 17 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: tech stocks? So I guess, now that I think about it, 18 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: I guess I have a personality that's sort of drawn 19 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: to riding bubbles up and then all the way down. 20 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: But no, it's not tech stocks. Do you want to 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: take it. It's not beanie bubbles. Is it's beanie bubbles 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: Beanie babies? That one I was not into. I'll give 23 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: you a hint. I was a twelve year old boy 24 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: when I was into it in the early nineties. Um, 25 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: I'm really I'm trying to figure out whether or not 26 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: you would have been like trading I don't know, emerging 27 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: market debt during the Asian financial crisis or something, but 28 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: at least how trading Mexican bonds before they play out 29 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: or anything like that. Today, we're gonna be talking about 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: the baseball card bubble in the early nineties. Like many 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: other twelve thirteen year old boys, I got super into 32 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: baseball cards, both both the ones that were coming out 33 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: out and historical ones. And maybe if you weren't involved 34 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: in it, you didn't remember this, but there was a 35 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: massive surgeon interest for a few years. I think it 36 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: sort of ended in like the mid to late nineties. 37 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: People are paying all kinds of money for them, and 38 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: then it's sort of just disappeared and people stopped doing it. Joe, 39 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: I have to say I was never into baseball cards, 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: but I'm going to admit something to you really embarrassing 41 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: right now, which is I used to be into magic 42 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: the Gathering, and there was a lot of card collecting 43 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: in that. I suspect that there's some similarities. And I 44 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: think you'll find in our episode that there's a lot 45 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: of really interesting finance lessons that this bubble has to 46 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: teach about other bubbles. Well, it sounds very cool. Who 47 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: are we talking to today? We're going to be talking 48 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: to Dave Jamison. He is the author of Mint Condition, 49 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: How Baseball Cards Became an American Obsession, and he is 50 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: a labor reporter at the Huffington Post. Let's bring him in. Dave, 51 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us. Welcome to the 52 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: Odd Lots Podcast. Hey guys, thanks a lot for having me. 53 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: First of all, why did you write a book about 54 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: the baseball card bubble? We'll get into what it was, 55 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: but I'm curious what drew you to this story. Were 56 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: you a baseball card collector at the time? Well, Joe, 57 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: like you, I am a man of a certain age. 58 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: We can say, um, I like yourself, I don't know 59 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: what you were. You were born and I was born 60 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight, and so I was twelve years 61 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: old in nineteen ninety and I was there for the 62 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: same baseball card frenzy that you were, And this was 63 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: a personal obsession of mine, I would say, from age 64 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: seven to about thirteen, and all my friends were crazy 65 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: for it too, and then for whatever reason, around age 66 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen, it it disappeared from my life. And 67 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: my interest was rekindled when I was around getting close 68 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: to thirty years old and my parents were selling the 69 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: house I grew up in and my mom said, You've 70 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: got to come get these baseball cards out of the 71 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: closet because it's full of them, and so that sort 72 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: of sent me down this rabbit hole of oh yeah, 73 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: whatever happened to baseball cards? So your story is very 74 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: similar to mine. I mean I didn't, you know, write 75 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: a book about it or have to get rekindled. But 76 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: I was born in Ni so just two years after you. 77 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: So all the years line up, if they We're gonna 78 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: have to be very careful with this episode, not just 79 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: trading personal stories about collecting cards, because we could probably 80 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: do that for like an hour or two and it 81 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: probably wouldn't be very interesting. Wait, okay, so I'm going 82 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: to come in here now. We're not going to do that, 83 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: Tracy here's my excuse to come in as someone who 84 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: knows very little about baseball cards or baseball for that matter. 85 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: What is the point of the cards? Are they? How 86 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: did they come into existence? How did you end up 87 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: with a shoe box full of them? Well, the the 88 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: long story, which I will keep short, it goes way 89 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: back to the eighteen eighties when when baseball cards were 90 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: created basically to market cigarettes um, and they were a 91 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: collectible like any others. And the whole idea was to 92 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: uh collect a certain team, a certain set. You know, 93 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: if you've got numbers one, three, four, and five, you 94 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: want to find number two in that set. And the 95 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: original idea was you you collect these cards. They look nice. 96 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: You maybe display them at your house, or you pull 97 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: them out when there's company, when company is over. But 98 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,679 Speaker 1: they were always collectibles for years and years, and boys, 99 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: young boys in particular, I love these. There was a 100 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of baseball card heydays. They were 101 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: huge in the nineteen thirties, they were huge again in 102 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties. Eventually, however, around the time Joe and 103 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: I came along, this idea of of baseball cards being 104 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: investments had come along and there's a lot of backstory there. 105 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: But I think, as Joe had had had said earlier, 106 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: there is a lot to this story that that that 107 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: says a lot about bubbles in general and the way 108 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: they work. Tracy, I'm really glad you asked that question, 109 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: like what our baseball cards, because that's probably I would 110 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: have just like skipped over that question. But it is 111 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: actually interesting this idea that they originally you know, they've 112 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: been around for you know, like a hundred and fifty years. 113 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: They're originally marketed, uh, you know, relating to tobacco. When 114 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: I was a kid, the most famous card was I 115 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: and I still remember the Honus Wagner T two O 116 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: six card, uh that I think was specifically like you 117 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: bought it and you got it in a pack of tobacco. 118 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: And I remember the early six in the world, and 119 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: I think Wayne Gretzky owned one. Uh. Tell us about 120 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: this card, Dave, because I assume you know all the 121 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: same lare about it. Yeah, the the the T TOO 122 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: six Honess Wagner is is like generally the most valuable 123 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: car it ever and that's because in part because Wagner 124 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: was was a great player for Pittsburgh and a Hall 125 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: of Famer, but also because the card itself had this 126 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: really unique back story, there was only a limited number 127 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: of them of them printed. Um, there's different theories as 128 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: to why there was. You know, people think there was 129 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: this dispute, you know that that Wagner didn't want to 130 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: be on a tobacco card to market tobacco, so he 131 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: pulled the rights anyway, for whatever reason, there's this mystery 132 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: as to why there are not so many of them 133 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: and if became this really hallowed card, and those old 134 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: cards are really important to understanding the bubble that would 135 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: come in the nine eighties and nineties. We fast forward 136 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: to the nineteen seventies. Baseball cards have been around a 137 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: really long time, but it's not really un till then 138 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: that anybody starts thinking of them as something that could 139 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: be worth money. They've always been collectibles up until now. 140 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: But there's a group of kind of forward looking guys 141 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,679 Speaker 1: at that time who start realizing that there's a market 142 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: develop uping around these old neat cards like the Honus 143 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: Wagner card. And these guys, uh, they start traveling the 144 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: country trying to buy up collections of baseball cards from people, 145 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: and they will hit the road, and they'll put an 146 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: ad in the local paper and say, Hey, my name's Joe. 147 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be in in Pittsburgh next Tuesday at the 148 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: Holiday Inn. If you've got baseball cards, come out, I'll 149 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: give you some money for him. And people came out. 150 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,559 Speaker 1: They they pulled out whatever it was in their attic 151 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: and they sold it to these guys for for pretty 152 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: much a song. But that's when a certain group of 153 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: collectors starts thinking about these things as money and a 154 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,719 Speaker 1: market starts forming. And it's not long after that that 155 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: we start we see a price guide, Uh, come out. 156 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: This is a guy named James Beckett, a statistician who 157 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: was also a big collector, decided that there should be 158 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: some sword of price guide to help people guide sales 159 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: and trades, and so all of a sudden we have 160 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: this this price guard guy that serves almost like a 161 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: stock tick or telling people what what their cards are worth. 162 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: And this is these are the sort of things we see, 163 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: kind of priming the pump for the boom that's going 164 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: to come in the nineties. Okay, I have questions about 165 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: the price guide, but before we go there, I mean, 166 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: I know you both have an affinity for these cards. 167 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: But as an objective observer, I'm really curious how a 168 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: single collectible piece of cardboard can be assigned of value because, 169 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: like something like a card, surely you can counterfeit it, right, Like, 170 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: surely you can make infinite numbers of copies of it. 171 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: How did it become a collectible? Well, you know, counterfeiting 172 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: isn't all that easy. And when it comes to these old, uh, 173 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: these old vintage cards, you could assign a market value 174 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: to it because there weren't a whole lot of them. Actually, 175 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: you know, the whole idea of baseball cards was they 176 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: were supposed to be ephemera. They were not supposed to 177 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: be here forever. So people back in the thirties and forties, 178 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: of fifties and sixties, you threw them out, and if 179 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: you didn't, your mom eventually through amount when you outgrew 180 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: these things. And so cards were not really meant to 181 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: stick around for decades and decades, and so people got 182 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: rid of them. And so those old cards, like the 183 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: Honus Wagner card, they were genuinely scarce, and um, you know, 184 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: it was always hard to say how many there were 185 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 1: out there, of course, and some would always kind of 186 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: appear out of addicts. But you knew that those old 187 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: cards were rare cards and because of their scarcity, they 188 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: could actually be valuable. Now that is very different from 189 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: the cards that we're being produced in modern times. Okay, 190 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: And this was was a big problem and a big 191 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,119 Speaker 1: feeder of the bubble was was sort of the mentality 192 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: that people had going into this hobby. People were we're 193 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: buying and collecting cards in the nineteen eighties that were 194 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: being produced at that time, but they were applying kind 195 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: of this vintage mindset to it. People were collecting, you know, 196 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: a Don Manning Lee Rookie card in four and thinking 197 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: of it kind of in the Honus Wagner terms. And 198 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: so you had these baseball card manufacturers that were essentially 199 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: printing money, you know, they were they were rolling these 200 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: cards out, and nobody really thought about how there was 201 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: no way to know how much was being produced and 202 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: whether this stuff would ever be scarce, And in fact, 203 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: it was like printing money, and the card makers were 204 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: printing obscene numbers of them. So before we started the recording, 205 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: I was tarring to Tracy and I said, the two 206 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,199 Speaker 1: things that I think are going to be very relevant 207 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: from this episode to understanding bubbles are a the role 208 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: that price guides had in priming the pump, and be 209 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: the explosion of supply that happened in the eighties and nineties. 210 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: To magic demand, which is of course something that we 211 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: see in other bubbles. Uh, supply always ends up swamping 212 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: the bubble. So you've already hit on both of them. 213 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: So let's really dive into those. Let's start with the 214 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: role of the Beckett You might even say the Beckett 215 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: magazine was the Bloomberg terminal of prices? What did it 216 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: do it? How did it? So? I remember, I would 217 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: look and I would, you know, say, oh, I have 218 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: this card from like a Ken Griffey Junior rookie card 219 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: or something, or maybe there's eighty nine, I don't remember. 220 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: And then every month I would look and see how 221 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: much the price had moved up and up a nickel 222 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: of a quarter of fifty cents, down a bit. How 223 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: were those prices collected by the magazine on a monthly basis, 224 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: How reliable were they? And then be what did how 225 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: did the existence of that price guide, the fact that 226 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 1: I could look it up end up changing collector behavior? 227 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: So the methodology, Uh, you may not be surprised to 228 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: learn was actually pretty murky. I'm not hard to know 229 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: exactly how they came up with the figures. Originally it 230 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: was based on surveys with deals and collectors who are 231 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: kind of in the know. And you know, in Backett's defense, 232 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: you know, early on, I think a lot of people 233 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: thought of this as a public service. Right right now, 234 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: and you know, in this day and age, it's very 235 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: easy for me to know what my Donmattingly rookie card 236 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: is actually worse. I can put it on eBay and 237 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: in seven days i'm gonna have a pretty good handle 238 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: on what the actual market value is. Back then, you know, 239 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't so easy to know. You know, I think 240 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: a lot of collectors felt isolated, and so the price 241 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: guide kind of like gave you a benchmark to go by. Um. 242 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: But where the price Guide was really dangerous was, in 243 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: my opinion, just generally popularizing this idea of baseball cards 244 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: as investments. Right I can say, you know, as a 245 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: nine year old, you know, we we were carrying the 246 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: Beckett price Guide around in school in our back past, 247 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: and you know, that was how we made our trades. 248 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: And it's kind of crazy to think of children as 249 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: doing that. But you know, we we were that the 250 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: price Guy had helped make even children think of these 251 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: cards as commodities um, which of course is always kind 252 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: of you know, in retrospect, was a pretty clear sign 253 00:13:51,440 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: of dangerous ahead. Okay, so you have the Price Guide, 254 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: you have this narrative that's starting to filter out that 255 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: baseball cards make sense as an investment. Talk to us 256 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: about the I guess the sort of cottage industry that 257 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: sprang up around it, because I'm assuming, as with most bubbles, 258 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: you did get a whole ecosystem kind of building and 259 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: feeding up on this baseball card phenomenon. Yeah. Absolutely so. 260 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: For for many many years, for decades, uh, there was 261 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: only one company making, really making baseball cards, and that 262 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: was Tops, the most famous brand. They essentially had had 263 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: a monopoly on this for decades. They had an agreement 264 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: with the Baseball Players Union in Major League Baseball, and 265 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: they were structured in a way that basically shut out 266 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: any any competitors. It wasn't until around that that they 267 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: finally lost their antitrust case on that, which opened the 268 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: door for other cardmakers to come in, and they certainly 269 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: flooded in at that point. It. It wasn't long before 270 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of these card man new card manufacturers 271 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: jumped into the fray, and a lot of different groups 272 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: had kind of um their own interests in seeing more 273 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: product kind of flood into the market. You know, one 274 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: was the Baseball Players Union and also Major League Baseball. 275 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: You know, they had these licensing deals with the card companies. 276 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: If you inc more deals, you're gonna get more money. 277 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: The league is gonna get more money, and the player 278 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: is going to get more money. So they had their 279 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: own reason to want to see more cards printed. And 280 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: you know dealers had their own part in it too. 281 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: The more the more stuff they could sell to people, 282 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: the better. And of course, you know, the demand for 283 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: this stuff was surging. So you would think that with 284 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: all these companies piling in and all of many many 285 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: more cards being printed, that you know, people would would 286 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: start to to see that that something was off here. 287 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: But the demand just searched so much you had new 288 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: collectors pouring in, you know, in the nineties, it was 289 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: I would say, highly unusual if if a nine year 290 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,239 Speaker 1: old boy wasn't collecting baseball cards. So, you know, obviously 291 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: we want to talk about how the uh, you know 292 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: the bubble crash, because that's important. But before we get 293 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: to the crash, what, let's just talk about the crazy 294 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: stuff that happened. What to you when you go back 295 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: and look at that period when it was unusual for 296 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: a nine year old boy not to be collecting cards 297 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: and all these new entrants came into the market and 298 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: people started treating cards his money. What are some really 299 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: fun stories of just like pure over the top extravagance 300 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: that in retrospect we can look back on to say, like, jeez, 301 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: this was obviously a bubble waiting to crash. I would 302 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: point to a few things, you know, one would be 303 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: the the infamous Billy Ripken. Yes, uh, error card, Joe, 304 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: are you familiar with that? I? I am indeed familiar 305 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: with that card? Can you can you explain it? Please? 306 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: How much of a family podcast is this? Well it 307 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: is a family podcast. But but basically there was so 308 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: Cal Ripkins younger brother, who never really amounted too much 309 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: there was that they called him error cards. Do you 310 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: want to explain what an error card is? Dave? Yeah, 311 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: So an Eric card is basically when a card was 312 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,239 Speaker 1: printed and there's a mistake on it somewhere and the 313 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: manufacturer didn't catch it in time, so the card gets out. 314 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: You know, usually this is like, you know, the stats 315 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: are wrong, or the guys wearing you know, an old 316 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,360 Speaker 1: uniform or something like that. But in Billy Ripkin's case, 317 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: it was a lot worse. Yeah, they had a he 318 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: had like a lot of typical pose was a picture 319 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: of a baseball player holding a bat on their shoulder, 320 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: like just sort of holding it up, and he had 321 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: a foul phrase that's not safe for saying on the air. Uh, 322 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: certainly not safe for nine year old boys to read, 323 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: written on the bottom of his bat. And you know, 324 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: so as soon as they caught that mistake, they obviously 325 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: pulled that. But of course everybody wanted the uh the 326 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: few that route there. Yeah, so this was a huge 327 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: embarrassment for the company that printed it. Flear and they 328 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: really bungled kind of the response. They didn't know what 329 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: to do. They they tried blotting out the expletive and 330 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: reprinting it, and then they scribbled it out and others 331 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: um and it turned out there ended up being like 332 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: six different versions of this of this error card, and 333 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: it kind of only only served to feed the frenzy more. 334 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: And I mean I remember this was like the buzz 335 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: on the playground back then was was was the Billy 336 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: Ripken card and and it was just you know, you 337 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: really enjoyed it as this illicit thing as a kid. 338 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: But what's crazy is how valuable those gotten a very 339 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: short time they were They were selling for well over 340 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: a hundred hours in many cases. Um, just because this 341 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: was a card that had a bat that had an 342 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: exploitive on it, you know that that was a sign 343 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: of of kind of the weirdness going on that something 344 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: like that could be could be fetching so much money. 345 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: And you know, for me it was it was just 346 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: kind of little thing things that that that you know, 347 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 1: you should have seen that that could have told you 348 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: what was going on. You know, one being how how 349 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: people were stockpiling cards and not opening them right This 350 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: la kind of goes goes against the very idea of collecting. 351 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: You're supposed to open the packs and like see if 352 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: you got your favorite player and try to assemble your team. 353 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: People mself included, were just buying this stuff and like 354 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: putting it in the closet as if it was like 355 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: you know, going to accrew value forever and ever as 356 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: this like unopened artifact, and you know, dealers were dealers 357 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: told me like we were storing this stuff in our 358 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: our basement like it was cardboard gold. Dave, I wanted 359 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: to ask you about this because of course, Okay, so 360 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: people are collecting cards because they think they're going to 361 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: grow in value, but you also have this tinge of 362 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: gambling there, right, because you buy a pack of cards 363 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: and you never know what's going to be inside of it, 364 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: and one of the you know, you could in theory, 365 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: hit the jackpot. It's a bit like buying a lottery ticket. 366 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: So how much did that feed in to the craze? Wait, 367 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: I gotta tell a story here. Sorry, it's a real 368 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: quick story, but it's exactly what this is about. It's 369 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 1: perfect story. So my friends and I actually did this. 370 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: We bought a box of unopened nineteen eighty nine Don 371 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: Ross cards that's another one of these new um, these 372 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: new ones that came into the market, and we're like, 373 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: we're not going to open them. I don't know what 374 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: we were thinking, but we that were like, well, let's 375 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: just open one pack just to see if we got 376 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: the Ken Griffy Junior Rookie card. Because it's just we're 377 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: just gonna open one pack and then we're gonna leave 378 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: the other one sealed for like future or whatever. And 379 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: so we did that, and not only did we get 380 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: the Ken Griffy Junior Rookie card, we also got the 381 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: Bobby Benia Rookie card in the same one. So it's 382 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: totally exactly what you say, Tracy. It was totally that 383 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: gambling thing, like, let's just do it one. It's like 384 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: opening scratching off a lottery ticket and incidentally we won. 385 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: Incidently lost because we lost. I don't know where that 386 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,959 Speaker 1: card is now, but it's you nailed. The mentality of 387 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: the gambling thing is totally what I was thinking. Isn't 388 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: it great that you have these cards that started as 389 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: tobacco advertisements and then slowly taught children how to gamble 390 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: and make speculative investments. Absolutely, the stories from the eighties 391 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: in the press are kind of amazing about you know, 392 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: little kids hanging out outside smoke shops basically badgering people 393 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: for the cards and their cigarette packs. And I mean 394 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: truly not joking it. It really served to introduce kids 395 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: to tobacco. So, you know, there is this idea that 396 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: that cards were always this kind of wholesome thing. I'm 397 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: like always trying to poke holes in that that kind 398 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: of nostalgia for these these things, because they've they've really 399 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: you know, they've always been about money, whether it was 400 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: the money for the collectors or money for for the 401 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: manufacturers who were rolling them out. I had no idea 402 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: how dark of a turn this episode was going to take. 403 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the crash. So you know, you talked 404 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: about the build up, the price guides, treating them as money, 405 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: the gambling. What was the tipping point? When did it all? When? 406 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: When was the peak, what year was the peak, and 407 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: what sort of was the sign that it was sort 408 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: of coming to an end. I think the peak in 409 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 1: sales when you actually look at numbers was probably around 410 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: but most people and myself included, like to point to 411 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: four as the year when things started really going down, 412 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: and that was, of course the year that that there 413 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: was a baseball strike. Um, you had a big labor 414 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 1: dispute between the players and the owners that the season 415 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: got sidelined, and so you had that coinciding with people. 416 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: You had people really disenchanted with the game because of 417 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: because of the dispute that was going on coinciding with 418 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: people also kind of starting to realize that this stuff 419 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: is actually just cardboard and that maybe it was actually 420 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: way overprinted. Um so people people are really star to 421 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: see that because it's it's it's inescapable. Then, I mean 422 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: the volume of cards that they were printing and the 423 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,239 Speaker 1: sheer number of sets that were out there, it was 424 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: it was really dizzy ng And and you know, one 425 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: interesting part of this, you know when you get into 426 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: into monopolies here, was when all these different cardmakers were 427 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: able to come come into the market. Uh and I'm 428 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 1: I'm look, I'm all for for for the free market here, 429 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,719 Speaker 1: but it created a lot of confusion and you had 430 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: kids like me, all of a sudden, there's like there's 431 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: a half dozen companies and there's thirty different sets. You 432 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: kind of started to lose the common language of collecting, 433 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: right because the whole the whole idea of collecting is 434 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: that and trading is that we're we're kind of working 435 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: with the same cards here, right Like if I'm trying 436 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 1: to to to to collect the Yankees team that tops 437 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: rolled out, my buddy down the street needs to be 438 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 1: collecting the same set of cards, and so that that 439 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: element got lost in their hobby just got really confusing 440 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: for kids just because there was there was frankly like 441 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: so much crap out there and so um. You know. 442 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: It was really in the early nineties when that hit 443 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 1: a peak and it in it unfortunately for the hobby, 444 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: really coincided with UH, with this labor dispute, and that's 445 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: when we see, you know, a very precipitous drop off 446 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: in sales after another interesting dimension here now that you 447 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: bring it up in terms of the changing nature of 448 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: cards from when it went to a monopoly to you know, 449 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: sort of the early nineties. If you go back and 450 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: uh look at you know, those seventies and eighties cards, 451 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: they're all just kind of on like a rough, fairly 452 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:38,479 Speaker 1: cheap cardboard. By the time like three the level of 453 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: uh sort of like how much was being invested in 454 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: the design of the car. They were all like super glossy. 455 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: Some of them had like golden or like you know, 456 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: leaf on them to sort of make them pretend like 457 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: you couldn't counter counterproof them. Like it was just they 458 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: just became like these sort of like luxury cards in 459 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: and of themselves. This sort of attempt to I guess 460 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: sort of manufacture collectibility from day one, like they really 461 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: just changed. Yeah. Absolutely, that's a great way of putting it. 462 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: And you know that the company upper deck Is is 463 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: kind of the best example of that. This was a 464 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: company that that sprang up in the late eighties out 465 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: of this idea of cards explicitly being being something you 466 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: you you collect as investments. They made these really fancy 467 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: cards on on heavy cardboard stock, They had the holograms 468 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: on them, they sprung for really good photographs, and they 469 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: you know, doubled or quadruple the price of what you 470 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: would normally expect to pay for a baseball card pack, 471 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: and people ended up buying them anyway, and a lot 472 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: of this, you know, and we see signs of it 473 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: here is really, in my opinion, the huge mistake that 474 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: that card makers you know, commit here is they really 475 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,479 Speaker 1: start catering to two adults, right, you know. Tops at 476 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: one point I found in one of their one of 477 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,479 Speaker 1: their ten k's around this time explicitly said like we 478 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: are you know, we are making this stuff for adults 479 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: as well as children. That is really not how you 480 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: want to be approaching this if you're in this for 481 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: the long term, because those adults are not going to 482 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 1: be around forever um, and so that that was I 483 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: think a big, big mistake on their part was starting 484 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: to cater to people who were older and had disposable 485 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: income to throw on this one. Really the lifeblood over 486 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: the decades was always children, children, children. Wait, I have 487 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: I have a sort of off the wall question if 488 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: if the bubble started to burst or burst around, there 489 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: was something else that was happening then, which was the 490 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: rise of the Internet and the rise I guess of 491 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: you know, transparency, And I think did eBay exist in 492 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: I can't remember, but in theory you had a Yeah, 493 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: you have an online platform where people could, for instance, 494 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: talk about the pricing information of baseball cards. Do you 495 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: think that played into it at all? It may have 496 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: I think a bigger problem, you know for the industry 497 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: when you talk in terms of like evolving technology, it's 498 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: just at a time when they were losing kids. Um, 499 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: you had the Internet rise, you had video games become 500 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: that much more amazing, and so you had all this 501 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: stuff really starting to compete for children's attention on a 502 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: on a much greater level, and it became I think 503 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: harder for you know, cardmakers to say to kids you know, 504 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: in this in this day and age, in modern times, 505 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: say hey, here's a pack of cardboard, you know, go 506 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: go have fun with it, and that, you know, that 507 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: created problem that to this day they're they're still trying 508 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: to dig their way out. Yeah, before we go, David, 509 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: I was actually just gonna ask you exactly that you know, 510 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: in terms of you know, a competing thing, video games, 511 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: Nintendos and stuff really sort of probably helped crush my 512 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: interest in cards because those you know, playing video games 513 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: were way more fun. But I was just gonna ask you, um, 514 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: what is the state of the market today. And there's 515 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: still who's still producing cards. It's still primarily Tops. Um 516 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: they are, They're still around, and to a credit, they're 517 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: they're trying to do some inventive stuff now, you know, 518 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: they they are still printing cards and they have them 519 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: tied to you know, an online app that functions a 520 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: lot like Fantasy Baseball and so kids, you know, have 521 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: this online element to it. You know, their sales on 522 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: the baseball card front are are still you know, I 523 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: would say a fraction of of what they were you know, 524 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: many many years ago, back during the boom. So you know, 525 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 1: they still have a lot of work to do if 526 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: they ever hope to get back to where they were. 527 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: But you know, I think they are, you know, to 528 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 1: their credit, trying to reach kids again in a way 529 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: that that for a lot of years of card makers 530 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: had kind of written off and we're increasingly only uh, 531 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, devoted to these these these older guys who 532 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: had who had money to throw around. But of course, 533 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, they're not gonna be around forever. And you know, 534 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: I think one of the problems that's going to linger 535 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: for a long time is that when you lose a 536 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: generation of collectors with something like this, it becomes harder 537 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: to to get people back and to get the children 538 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: of those of those collectors you lost. I mean, I 539 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: was just talking with with our producer here, Zach, who 540 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,239 Speaker 1: was just a few years younger than me, and we 541 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: were talking about what we were going to talk about here, 542 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: and he said, oh, I didn't know that there was 543 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: a baseball card bubble because he was seven seven years 544 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: or so, eight years or so younger than me, and 545 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: so he had completely missed the fat. Of course, you 546 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: knew about like beanie babies and pots and that sort 547 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: of thing, But when you lose a generation of collectors. 548 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: It was it. You know, for a long time, it 549 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: was you know, fathers turned their sons onto baseball cards, 550 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: older brothers turned their younger brothers on the baseball cards. 551 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: So you know, when you have this big generation that 552 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: missed out on it, I think you're you're trying to 553 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: dig out of a bigger hole. Does that mean there's 554 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: no chance that the market could ever recover, because I 555 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: mean we are in the midst of a little bit 556 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: of a nostalgia boom. And what's more nostalgic really than 557 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: kids collecting cards that depict the players of America's national pastime. 558 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: I mean, cards have been so zilient for a hundred 559 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: and forty odd years that I think there's no reason 560 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: they're they're not going to be around for a really 561 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: long time. I also think it's important to kind of 562 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: clarify that there's really two markets here. There's there's the 563 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: market of of new stuff being made that we're talking 564 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: about right now, like companies like Tops are producing still 565 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: each year that has been you know, a struggling business 566 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: for you know, two decades now. But that the separate market, 567 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: the earlier one we were talking about a vintage cards 568 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: of the Honus Wagners and such. That market has been 569 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: a a bowl market for forty fifty years now. It 570 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: is still going strong because that stuff is still very 571 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: rare and because there's a lot of older guys, um 572 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: millionaires who are willing to throw serious money after that stuff. 573 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: So that market has remained exceptionally strong. And if you 574 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: were if you were involved in that early and if 575 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: you made some smart moves, you know that that could 576 00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: could very well have made you a rich person now. 577 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: But that is a very different market from this overglutted 578 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: modern market of way overproduced cards that me and Joe 579 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: came up in. Well, Dave, it was absolutely awesome to 580 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: talk to you. I I swear, you know, maybe we 581 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: should beat for Colbee sometime just so we could talk 582 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: old baseball cards stories. But you know, you talked about 583 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,479 Speaker 1: trade stories. But I feel really dumb now because I 584 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: did all the dumb things back then. I was just 585 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: like everybody else thinking that I just feel really stupid 586 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: the problem. But I'm glad to I'm glad to find 587 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: out that I am not alone. And uh, I really 588 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: appreciate you coming on. I learned quite a bit. Look, man, 589 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: I got an email like every three days from some 590 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: guy around our age asking me what is cards are worth? 591 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: And so I'm baking breaking bad news to people all 592 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: the time. So you're you know, we're all on the 593 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: same boat. So so there's that awesome stuff. Thanks Dave, 594 00:31:53,440 --> 00:32:08,239 Speaker 1: Thanks guys. So, Tracy, I kind of wanna go on 595 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: eBay and start buying a bunch of baseball cries. Now, 596 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: what happened to your old baseball cards? Do you remember? 597 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: That's a really good question. Um, I know my dad 598 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: has some storage, some boxes in storage somewhere from when 599 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: I was a kid. So now I kind of got 600 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: to figure out where those are and go get them. 601 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: They might some of them might be somewhere, they might 602 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: be recoverable. Yeah, I mean, I think the amazing thing 603 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: is we all kind of have stories from our childhood 604 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: of similar things, whether it's baseball cards or um in 605 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: my case, magic the gathering cards, or POGs or beanie babies. Again, 606 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: it's just amazing how often this pattern of behavior is 607 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: repeated throughout history. There's so many relevant lessons here for 608 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: other things. So obviously we talked about the role of 609 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: price guides, and that's kind of clear. But although although 610 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: it's interesting too, the idea we should do an episode 611 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: just on pricing, because it's interesting that and how prices 612 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: are derived, because you know, we got these magazines as 613 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: kids and it would say, oh, your card is worth 614 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: five dollars, but we never questioned how that price was 615 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: arrived at, how how whether we could get that price 616 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: if we actually wanted to sell our cards. Like, there's 617 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: all sorts of interesting stuff just with the collection of pricing. 618 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: Also interesting this idea of like they're really being two 619 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: baseball card markets. The current market that just sort of 620 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: got overturned and overproduced and that collapsed, and then the 621 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: true vintage market from when there was actual scarcity, and 622 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: how that has been, as he said in a two 623 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: decade bowl markets sort of unfazed by the crash. And 624 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: the other part, Yeah, it almost speaks to a truism 625 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: of bubbles, I guess, which is that as people cotton 626 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: on to the fact that this is going on, and 627 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: as they start to participate in it, you get that 628 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: boom and apply and then inevitably the bubble will eventually 629 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: come crashing down, right, Yeah, I remember before our Bubble series, 630 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: it might have even been like a year ago. Remember 631 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: we talked to that professor at Harvard about his paper 632 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: on the five or six characteristics of all stock market 633 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: bubbles and the premium, and that was one of the 634 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: things that I really took away from that, the premium 635 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: that stock investors pay for new issues, new I p 636 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: o S versus legacy ones. And then of course, because 637 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: investors pay that premium, then the I p O Market 638 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: booms and the supply or you know, swamps demand and 639 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: that helps to kill it. But that's really sort of definitional. 640 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, if we look at even 641 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: the bubbles that we've talked about in this series, Florida 642 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: real estate being example, you know, suddenly people just buying 643 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 1: the swamp land in the middle of nowhere. The market 644 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: always finds a way to create the supply when there's 645 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: adequate demand for it. Yeah. Hey, hey, Joe, what's the 646 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: secret to uh, writing a bubble success fully? Is this 647 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: gonna be right? Oh? Yeah, that's a good lot. Actually, 648 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:12,919 Speaker 1: thank you, I've been saving that one. Speaking of timing. Yeah, 649 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: all right, let's do it. This has been another episode 650 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can 651 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart and I'm Tracy Alloway. 652 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Tracy Alloway, and you can follow 653 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: Dave Jamison on Twitter at Jamison. And you can follow 654 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: our producer Sarah Patterson on Twitter at Sarah patt With 655 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: two teas. Thanks for listening.