WEBVTT - Team Favorite: SBF's Effective Altruism 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:06.680 This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I heard podcast 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.640 and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:27.920 Bloomberg News. It's Monday, January sixty. Hi everyone, Stacy Murrie 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.280 here Today in the U s we're observing Martin Luther 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:32.640 King Jr. Day, which is a holiday. So we on 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.280 the Crypto team wanted to offer up an episode we 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:40.559 think feels appropriate to the idea of service. This is 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.400 an episode that focuses on sam Bank un Freeds, so 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:48.720 called effective altruism. What happens to all of the various organizations, 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.559 nonprofit and otherwise around the world who were expecting to 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:56.480 receive donations or who received donations from sam Bank, mun 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.600 Freed or f TX or any of its associated entities. 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.520 Bloomberg reporters Sophia Alexander and Laura Davison joined me for 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:06.000 a look at the full out and we'll be back 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:21.679 tomorrow with a new episode. Thank you and enjoy. So 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.640 if you want, don't you introduce yourself. Hi. I'm Sophia Alexander. 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:27.679 I'm a reporter on the Wealth Team. I cover billionaires 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:31.120 what they're doing with their money, and especially billionaire philanthropy. 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:33.680 Such a busy time for billionaires and what they're doing 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.839 with their money. Laura, what about you? Hi? I'm Laura 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.200 Davison and I'm based down in Washington, d C. Where 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.080 I'm covering wealth but also um all things Congress and 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:46.280 tax policy and what politicians are up to. Again, just 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:50.160 many things happening in your world. So let's talk about 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:53.440 the place where the intersections of your worlds are happening, 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:57.000 and that is a gentleman named Sam Bankmun Freed, who 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.160 I'm no longer going to introduce on the show because 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:02.080 if you're listening to show about crypto and you you've 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:04.520 at least heard of what som Back Mantrid is, but 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:08.440 perhaps you have heard either slightly less about or don't 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:12.519 quite understand what the concept of effective altruism is, which 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:16.480 is something that he was closely associated with, Sophie. What 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.880 does this crypto billionaire or perhaps former billionaire have to 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:25.880 do with this particular strand of philanthropy. Effective altruism is 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:31.520 this brand of philosophy and philanthropy that's picked up steam 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.600 recently because it's caught the attention of billionaires like Sam 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:40.520 Bankman Freed, but also Elon musk, and what it is 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:44.440 is essentially the idea that you should make as much 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.720 money as you can to give it away, but in 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:50.919 a very effective way, hence the first word in the term, 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.960 but that means saving as many lives as possible. And 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:57.600 there's a whole other strand of it called long termism, 0:02:57.639 --> 0:02:59.920 and the idea behind that is trying to sort of 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:06.839 preserve humanities long term existence on this planet. So there's 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:10.960 a lot of focus on artificial intelligence research and trying 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.040 to make sure that the robots basically don't kill us 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.200 in the future. They're about a definitely gonna kill us. 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.919 But when you say things like trying to preserve humanity, 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.679 I think of, you know, cryogenics and this idea that 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:23.280 people have like, well we can what we can all 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.799 freeze ourselves and be and be alive. I'm not sure 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.239 if effect of altruism had much to do with cryograonics, 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:32.120 but what I do know is that part of the 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:34.920 tension that I've seen in terms of the criticism is 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.080 how do you know if stuff is working? Like, if 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:40.160 you have such a long term time horizon, how are 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:44.520 you even measuring the efficacy of your effectiveness? The things 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:48.200 that they focus on sort of get at that, like, 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.040 but there's no way of knowing whether people are going 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.080 to be around in two hundred a thousand years or whatever, 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.960 but they're trying to focus on issues that will prevent 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:01.560 the collapse of humanity pandemic prepared. This research on bio 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:07.520 security is increasingly popular, especially from SPF, and then artificial 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.440 intelligence is a big one as well, especially among not 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:12.560 just SPF but also Elon Muski does a lot of 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:15.640 that as well. And to your point, not about being 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.640 like yea robots, but more about neigh robots more so 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:23.520 like doing the research now to make sure that artificial 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:28.839 intelligence is developed in a safe way. Got it, Laura, 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.039 You're in d C, which is in a lot of 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:36.640 wiz the opposite of Silicon Valley, from the fashion to 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.000 the focus to just the way that you know, the 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.960 priorities that people have SPF for lots of reasons associated with, 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.120 you know, lobbying efforts around trying to get certain types 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.600 of regulations in place, spent a lot of time in 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:55.040 d C. Was he successful in persuading people around him 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.680 to like buy into this effective altruism vision from your perspective, 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:02.560 he really he talked about pandemic preparedness as being one 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.719 of his key drivers for political giving, which raised a 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.080 lot of eyebrows because there is almost zero talk in 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:11.120 d C about pandemic preparedness, at least among politicians and 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.520 Congress in the White House, maybe in some corners of 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.200 some agencies. But this has really been sort of an 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.719 interesting way to see how he spent his money to 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:20.800 really bring to life some of these ideas that he's 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:24.000 talked about his crypto giving or his political giving. Really 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.520 most people believe that that was more focused towards crypto 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:30.560 when you look at and crypto regulation or less regulation 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.920 as the case. Maybe he was giving to the key 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.560 figures there. Where you see some of these more altruism 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:41.359 ideas come to light is in this foundation giving though 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.039 as a reporting to show that the amount of money 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.640 that his foundation said it gave or the FTX Foundations 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.160 said it give didn't actually go out the door. Um, 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:51.880 you know, they had a bunch of grants that never 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.640 u ultimately got paid and in some cases some of 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:56.719 that money actually maybe Claude back as part of the 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:01.920 bankruptcy proceedings. Now, just for context, is this common in 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.680 philanthropic giving, Like is there often this discrepancy between Hey, 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:07.280 we're planning to give all this money and is it 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:09.560 just that the timelines along, it's hard to give money, 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.720 like what's going on here? In like the broader like 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.320 world of billionaire philanthropy, there are a lot of promises 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.880 that are made, like the giving pledge. It's a pledge 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:24.400 to give away the majority of your wealth in your 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.000 lifetime or your will. You know, a lot of people 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.400 have died who signed the giving pledge. We have no 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.920 idea whether they actually gave away the majority of their 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:36.839 lifetime or wrote it in their will. The majority of 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.960 your wealth is you know, a big question work because 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.279 you know, Jeff bezos Is wealth has varied, you know, 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.000 tens of billions of dollars since this time last year. 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:48.520 He said recently that he wants to give away most 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:50.760 of his wealth in his lifetime. But what does that 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.960 actually mean in terms of dollar figures? Now talking about 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:57.560 SPF and his pledge. You know the grants that they 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.159 said they made on their page, you know a lot 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.200 of those weren't paid yet. A lot of that has 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.760 to do with paperwork. There's a lag I think there 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:09.000 is a lot of pr to the world of billionaire philanthropy, 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:11.720 so sort of like slapping all these big numbers up 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:16.080 makes a person look good, and in SPFS case, that's 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:20.040 that's also true. Right to your point about billionaires saying 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.480 they're going to give things, it does. I'm reminded of 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.760 when people were super surprised that Mackenzie Scott formally Mackenzie 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.920 Scott Bezos was just like literally giving money to just 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:30.360 turn up and be like, here's a bunch of money. 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:35.320 By I am fascinated by what you said. They're about 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:39.200 this idea of pr because bank mun Freed, who has 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:41.880 been on a bit of a like texting with reporters tool, 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.040 in a text thread with a report at Vox Media, 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:50.680 appeared to concede that for him, at least some of 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:54.760 this effective alcoatraism stuff was just pr How seriously can 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.600 we take this movement in general? Like, is it unfair 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:02.880 to ascribe, you know, cynicism to the vast majority of 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:07.640 these folks. It's hard to know what people's real intentions are. 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:12.640 Philanthropy has in history been a very good PRD tool. 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.240 I mean, if you think about Rockefeller today, you think 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.760 a lot about his philanthropy. Literally, the Rockefeller censer exactly 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:20.720 in New York and Carnegie. You know, you think about 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.720 his public works, his libraries and things like that, you 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.320 don't think of the fact that they were robber barons. 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.560 And you know, the same has been true for you know, 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.560 billionaires who are still alive today, like Bill Gates. You know, 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.280 twenty years ago, people didn't think of him as this 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.360 fantastic philanthropist. They thought him as this evil monopoly man. 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:42.960 And that look how much that has changed. Sam For 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.240 the Sacklers, who you know, are implicated in the opioid crisis, 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.760 their names are slapped over museum buildings all across the country, 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.120 and until recently, no one thought anything of it. So 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.040 it is hard at this point to think, Okay, yes, 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:00.200 we can take this billionaire at his word that you 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.480 know he really does mean well, he's just trying to 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:04.840 make as much money as possible to give it away. 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.720 Maybe we should start asking the question of how are 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:12.040 they making their money. The other thing, too specifically about 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:16.160 SBF is that he clearly was very conscious about who 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.560 he gave money to and the reasons he was giving 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:22.319 that money. He told Fox recently that he gave as 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.400 much money to Republicans as he gave to Democrats for 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:28.240 political donations through dark money. Through dark money, which of 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:31.920 course can't be verified by definition. Those groups don't publish 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:33.560 their list of donors, so it's very hard to know 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.320 whether that's true. But the reason he said he gave 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.800 through dark money groups versus giving to more public entities 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:44.400 was because reporters freak out when billionaires give to Republicans. 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.040 So it was clear he was thinking about what is 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:50.000 the perception of this giving that I'm doing. So this 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.760 is SBF saying the reason he used dark money was 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.360 to avoid you know, quote unquote reports was freaking out. Yes, 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.360 and you look here to the people that were seaving 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:03.560 money from the ft X Foundation. It's a lot of academics, 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.280 it's a lot of researchers, including you know, undergraduate students 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.239 and PhD students, master students. Some really small dollar donations, 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:12.360 you know, comparatively speaking, you know, things that are in 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:14.720 like the tens of thousands of dollars, but people that 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.320 were influential in the field and that were very influential 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:19.760 online of sort of pumping up f t X as 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:22.320 well as the effect of altruism movement. Now, I just 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.559 want to kind of segue briefly into Future Fund and 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.520 this idea of influence because it was a part of 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:32.120 the overall ft X Foundation that was, according to their 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:36.120 marketing materials on their website, funded by what looked like 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.320 Bankman Fried's Inner Circle. Right, So you had Caroline Allison 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:45.560 from Alameda, Gary Wang sing what did they do exactly? Like, 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.320 what was the Future Fund? Yeah? Sure? This was actually 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.559 a really kind of novel and also very complicated organizations. 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.839 So they basically had two tiers of grants that they 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:56.960 gave out. They gave up bigger grants which were more 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.240 like her traditional foundation where you know, applicants could apply 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:02.840 and get you know, kind of hundreds of thousands or 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:05.920 millions of dollars. They also had this whole re grant 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.280 our structure where they had more than a hundred people 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.720 that were active in the effect of altruism community who 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.920 would identify different researchers or projects that they thought that 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.120 they were deserving of, you know, sort of smaller dollar 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.400 amounts of money. So these are a lot of students 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.760 who are applying for specific projects that they were working on, 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.240 or kind of ragtag groups of of people who were 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.360 starting different side hustles, and they could apply to get 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:28.400 this money. So it was really kind of broad. You know, 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.160 you look at people from you know, it was Trump's 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.800 former head of Operation Warp Speed, who's writing a memoir. 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:35.320 You got some money as well as you know, a 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.880 Harvard undergraduate got thirty thou dollars Up next, more from 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:42.320 Bloomberg reportos Sophie Alexander and Laura Davison on what's happening 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:55.439 with effective altruism and crypto. Now we've talked a bit 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.920 about these smaller dollar amounts and the influence, and so 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:00.480 I feel like we have to so about one of 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.640 the the influencers of this whole movement, which is William 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:06.360 David McCaskill. And when I googled him as research for this, 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.040 it was like a bunch of photos of him staring 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.880 off into the middle distance, like really intently. And he 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:16.040 you know, he has been described, as it were, as 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:19.280 a charismatic leader. Who is this dude and what was 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.520 his relationship to the FTX Foundation and to the e 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:26.560 A movement. He is one of the originators of the 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:31.440 effective altruist movement. He's a philosopher and he was actually 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:35.080 on the team of the f t X Future Fund. 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.360 He was one of the people who signed the letter 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.080 that went up on e a forum, a community online 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.680 from the team behind the Future Fund after the whole 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:49.920 thing collapsed, saying, hey, we resigned big apologies. If you 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.240 have questions and you're a grantee, please email us here. 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.719 So it's unclear to me, at least in my reporting, 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:00.839 what the relationship between SPF and mccasko us, but does 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:05.560 sound like from Ellen Hewett's story recently with Peter Singer, 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.439 she didn't interview with Peter Singer. It sounds like SBF 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.480 was making the rounds with this group. Peter Singer is 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:17.400 another originator of the movement, alongside McCaskill, another philosopher at Stanford, 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.240 so it sounds like they were swimming in similar circles 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.960 and no shade to philosophers. So philosophers, please don't come 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.280 from me for what I'm about to say. But most 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:30.840 philosophers aren't like household names. McCaskill was on The Daily 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.240 Show with Trevor Noah only a McCaskill welcomes to the 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.760 Day Show. Thanks so much for having me. I'm a fan. 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.560 It's it's it's interesting speaking to a philosopher because when 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:42.960 they say, philosopher. I remember thinking, oh, it's probably gonna 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.680 be like a ninety year old man with like a 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:50.520 stick and what is the meaning of life? But this 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.319 is an extremely savvy group of folks. Is that sort 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.880 of common in these EA circles that they are, you know, 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.480 kind of strategic about getting their message jouts in these 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:04.360 larger forums, in the larger forms, I'm not sure. I 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.280 mean recently, just within this past year, it's been interesting 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:12.839 to watch them sort of gain influence in these billionaire circles. 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.520 Like I said earlier, Elon Musk has also espoused the idea. 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:20.400 I don't know how recently, but at least earlier this year. 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.520 There was a poker player named Igor Kirganov who was 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.760 in charge of his foundation, and he is Elon Musk's 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:31.720 foundation was run by a poker player. Yes, a poker player, 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.640 and it seems like there are a lot of poker 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.000 players who are involved in the effect of Altoist movement. 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:42.280 This guy, Ego or Kirganov was big in the EYA space. Now, 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.800 I just said, no shade of philosophers, but some shades billionaires. 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.640 One of the things I've noticed about billionaires is they 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:52.280 seem to be hypersensitive to associating themselves with people who 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:56.000 are cool, because a lot of billionaires aren't cool. And 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.280 so tell me a little bit about you know, these 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:02.760 kind of billionaire circles and who they're being influenced by. Well, 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.920 with Elon Musk, it's a completely different story because it's unclear, 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.520 like how many real close friends he has. You know, 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.200 this year he had this poker player running his foundation 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.520 who he apparently met at Burning Man. You know, he 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.360 dates grimes, he like, you know, he's doing all this stuff. 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:25.440 Who knows who's actually close with him and who is 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.080 just associating with him for the proximity to his power. 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:31.880 So that's that's the circle that Ellen Musk runs in 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.480 with SPF. It sounds like it was this tight knit 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:39.480 circle of FTX folks and also effective altruists. I just 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:41.240 I feel like I have to close with this anecdote 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.280 because it's too good not to. In the New Yorker 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.960 profile of William McCaskill, they have this sentence, McCaskill like 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.160 to drink too many pipes of bit and frolic about 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:52.520 in the nude, climbing pitched roofs by night for the 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.680 life affirming flush. He was a saxophonist in a campus 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.480 funk bland that played the Mabels and was known as 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:04.200 a hopeless romantic incredible. Thank you both, thank you, thank you. 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:06.640 That was super fun. I learned at least five wild things. 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:11.640 You can find more of their reporting on the Bloomberg 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:14.280 terminal and on Bloomberg dot com, and do check out 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.000 our newsletter, which is also called Bloomberg Crypto. You can 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.320 get that in your inboxes twice a week on Tuesdays 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:27.200 and Thursdays. 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