WEBVTT - Bengals Booth Podcast: When I'm Sixty-Four 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:06.439 Hig and everybody. I'm Dan Horde, and thanks for downloading 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:13.280 the Bengals Booth Podcast. When I'm sixty four edition as 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:17.040 I visit with retiring sports columnist Paul Docherty from the 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:21.520 Cincinnati Enquirer. Coming up, we'll discuss his relationships with Paul 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:24.599 Brown and Mike Brown, find out what he learned while 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:28.480 collaborating on a book with Chad Johnson, and discuss Zach Taylor, 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.320 Joe Burrow, and much more. The Bengals Booth Podcast is 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:36.320 presented by Ultimate Bengals. Download Ultimate Bengals ahead of the 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.400 twenty twenty two season. It's free to play next level 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:44.000 fantasy football with fantastic Bengals prizes. Get it now on 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:46.760 the App Store and Google Play. And here's a quick 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:49.280 reminder that you can have the latest edition of this 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.879 podcast delivered right to your phone, tablet, or computer by 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:57.080 subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. It's the greatest thing 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:02.400 since Last Call Trivia. My wife Peg and I, along 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:04.520 with our good friends Dave and NICKI, love to go 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:08.000 out once a week to trivia nights at bars. And 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.000 there's a company called Last Called Trivia that's got the 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.399 concept down to a science. A host runs the show. 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:17.640 You enter your answers on your phone, and the contest 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.560 is designed to last for two hours, with prizes going 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.280 to the top three teams. The only expense is whatever 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.520 you eat and drink. The company runs trivia games in 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:29.920 a wide variety of cities, so if you're interested in 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:34.720 trying it sometime, just go to last called Trivia dot com. 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.479 And if you wind up playing in Cincinnati and run 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:42.400 into a team named the Utopians, well you've been warned. 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:45.800 Before I get to my guest, here's an invitation to 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:49.520 grab your yoga mat and join Hoode on Saturday, June 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.400 twenty fifth at nine am for NAMA's Day Yoga on 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.800 the Field at Paul Brown Stadium. Register now at Bengals 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:01.520 dot com slash Yoga. It's presented by Nell in partnership 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:06.600 with Kroger and Title Babe Period Bank. I moved to 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.120 Cincinnati in nineteen ninety six, so for twenty six years 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.519 now I've been reading the work of Cincinnati Inquirer sports 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:18.840 columnist Paul Docherty. Like any great columnist, Paul is provocative 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.560 and opinionated, and I frequently don't agree with him, but 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.040 I'm always interested in what he has to say, and 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.200 I marvel at his ability to write. This week we 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:32.600 talked about his career and is more than three decades 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:37.240 of covering the Bengals. Doc. Let's start with your news. 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.120 You are retiring at the end of the month. You 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:44.320 still have your fastball. Why and why? Now that's a 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:46.359 heck of a question, one that I never really had 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:52.360 a satisfactory answer for. I will be sixty four and 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:58.919 a half. Dan. Within the past three four years, both 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.639 of my parents have past, which got me to thinking 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.920 that I'm still healthy, and I still have some time, 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.280 and I still love things undone that don't involve the 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:14.320 daily grind of inflicting my opinion on people. So it 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:18.280 just seemed like it seemed like the right time, is 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:19.959 all I can tell you, And I'm sure that's what 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.280 everybody says, but it just it feels right. I appreciate 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.760 that you say I still have my fastball. Sometimes I wonder. 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:33.239 I didn't used to wonder, and I always wanted to 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:38.120 be able to call my own shot, and I'm going 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.800 to be able to do that. So um yeah, yeah, 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:45.840 end of my end of June. You've written books, including 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.280 one with Chad Johnson several years ago. Will you write 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:53.200 more books? That's somewhat up to me and somewhat up 0:03:53.200 --> 0:04:01.800 to my agent. Yes is the short answer, as everybody 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.240 who writes for a living. I plan on writing a 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.640 great American novel. I'm not sure when, and I'm not 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.160 sure about what, but I just I just know I'm 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.040 going to get that done, you know, in my spare time. 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.960 But if anybody needs a book written, give me a shout. 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:22.279 I will definitely ponder. It'll be just finished a book 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:24.919 on Nate Ebner. People might not know who Nate Ebner is, 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:28.920 but Nate Edner is a guy from Springfield, Ohio who 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:32.719 has three Super Bowl rings and played for the US 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.080 in the two thousand and sixteen Olympics as a member 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:41.000 of the rugby team. Fantastic story. A guy who arose 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:44.560 from from nothing, walked on at Ohio State having not 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:48.800 played high school football, and ended up being a valued 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.520 member of special team, so valued that he got drafted 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:54.440 higher than Tom Brady by the way he yeared a 0:04:54.600 --> 0:05:00.839 year later, but higher, and his first love was rugby, 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:04.120 had to ditch rugby to Good Ohio State to play football, 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:10.200 came back to rugby six years after he uh After 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.840 six years of not playing the sport, made the US 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:20.000 Olympic team in twenty sixteen. His father was a junkyard 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.880 proprietor in Springfield and one of the one of the 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.719 craziest people I've ever had the pleasure of writing about. 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.920 His father was murdered in the junkyard by one of 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:35.000 his supposed customers who thought that his father had done 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.040 him wrong. And when that was when Nate was nineteen. 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.480 And the book is more about the relationship that Nate 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:47.479 had with his dad than about sports, although a big 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.719 chunk of it is sports, given that he played for 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.480 the Buck Guys and Bill Belichick and was an Olympian. 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.400 So anyway, that's a long, long answer to a short question. 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.919 And that's the last book. The next book is is 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.320 yet to be, but I'm looking forward to it. What 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:05.359 was the most interesting thing you learned about Belichick from 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:10.480 collaborating with Nate, Well, probably nothing that nobody else people 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.880 don't already know about Bill Belichick. Nate, Nate was pretty 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:19.160 protective of Bill. Bill was totally supportive of Nate's Olympic effort. 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.880 The US first game, in uh first match in the 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:28.839 sixteen Olympics, they broadcast on the big screen at Gillette 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:34.240 Stadium during practice so his teammates could see Nate play Bill. 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:38.080 Bill would a great student of American history, especially UH 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:44.560 War type history, and would quiz his players on various 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.600 aspects of you know, if it were if they were 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.000 in OTAs on June six Bill would demand that they 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.520 know the importance of June sixth, nineteen forty four, which 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:59.240 was of course the d D Landings. So yeah, and 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.160 but but by the same token, Bill kept his distance 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.880 with everyone. He had no favorites. He saved his harshest 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:12.040 criticism for Tom Brady essentially to show the rest of 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.040 the team that, you know, even this guy can be ripped, 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.760 and I'm going to rip him. Kept his distance from 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.840 from everybody, and I'm not sure any player on the 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:27.080 team really knew Bill Belichick. And I got the impression 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.720 from Nate that that's exactly how Bill wanted it. All right, 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.120 this is a Bengals podcast, so let's get to some 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.520 Bengals topics. You started covering the Bengals in eighty eight, 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.240 just in time for Super Bowl twenty three, a team 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.520 that included Boomer Asias and Chris collins Worth, Anthony Millenio, 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:46.640 Solomon Wilcotts and several other players who are would don't 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:53.040 forget Icky Woods and others, famously talkative, famously colorful. Was 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:58.600 that team a sportswriter's dream? Yes, m yeah, I have 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.960 very fond memories of spinney Field, which sounds crazy if 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.800 anybody knows anything about spinney Field. I used to say 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:09.440 that spinney Field was where the CIA would interrogate spies 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:14.600 on weekends. But Um, boomer and and the entire offensive 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.840 line occupied a corner of the spinney Field locker room, 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.960 way way way far in the back, and we would 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.600 they would let the media in at lunchtime, and those 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:29.000 guys would always be there. And if if you wanted 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.560 your ego taken down, you paid a visit to the 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:34.800 boys in the in the back corner of the locker room, 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:36.439 because they'd be sure to do it and rip you 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.720 for everything from what you dressed like to what you wrote, 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.360 uh that that kind of thing, and also gave you 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.439 great stories. Those guys were great. Um, the Icky story 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.760 was great. Obviously, everybody knew that Paul Brown did the 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.640 shuffle at the Super Bowl. Um, and there were there 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.840 were good just good people, not only good players, and 0:08:57.960 --> 0:08:59.960 fun to be around. But but good guys, I mean, 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:05.680 I mean, Anthony Munios was on that team. Obviously, Boom 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:09.960 Boomer himself was as chatty as as they came back then. 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:14.000 It was a lot of fun then, And like every rookie, 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:18.319 I thought, Hey, we're gonna do this every year. This 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.280 is a young team. In fact, age wise, it resembled 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.040 last year's Bengals team in terms of the ages of 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.600 the players. Um. Yeah, we're gonna do this a lot, 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.080 and as we know, we didn't do it a lot. 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.200 Is that a cautionary tale for how we feel about 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:37.800 the current team? Um? It is for me. Um And 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.600 I've been accused that once or twice over the years 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:42.880 of being a debbie down or you might not know that, damn. 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:48.800 I mean, but um, I yeah. It's very very hard 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:53.040 to repeat to get back to the super Bowl the 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:55.800 next year. So much is working against you. This team 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.880 is better on paper than last year's team was at 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:03.120 this time, but last year had a certain magic to 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.320 it that I don't know if they can duplicate. I 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.800 hope they can schedules a lot harder. I mean, I 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:11.760 was looking at it this morning. They play at Dallas, 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.120 at New Orleans at Tennessee at Tampa Bay at New England, 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:19.200 my goodness. And they've got the bills at home in 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:23.199 Kansas City at home, so we'll see. They stayed relatively 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:28.640 injury free last year. They stayed COVID free, don't I 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.160 don't know if any team could repeat that or that 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.600 had that kind of chemistry or Zach loves to call 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.560 it the culture, you know, the culture, And I kind 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.000 of pooh pooed that for a few years, and I 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:44.080 was wrong. Zach was right. The culture was important, The 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.040 culture mattered. The culture helped them tremendously last year. Do 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:48.959 they have the same culture this year? I don't know, 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:54.320 So again, long answer, short question, we shall see. Paul 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.760 Dougherty is our guest. What do you remember about meeting 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:03.280 Paul Brown? The first time I met Paul Brown was 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:09.080 in April of nineteen eighty eight or was it eighty nine, 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:14.559 eighty eight. He gave me a tourist Spinny Field, and 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:19.800 I understand Dan. Before that, my job from my previous 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.520 two stops along the road in Dallas and in New 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:28.840 York was covering college football national college football, and as 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:33.120 such I made frequent visits to places like Oklahoma in 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:38.440 Texas and UCLA in Ohio state where the players like 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:41.240 in high school, I used to say that the players 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.080 cars were nicer than the teachers, while the players car 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.480 or the students cars were nicer than the teachers. The 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.120 players cars in college were nicer than the assistant coaches, 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:54.560 and the weight rooms were massive because the whole idea 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.719 was to impress recruits with all this stuff. Right, So 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.640 with that in mind, I'm in Cincinnati and Paul Brown 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.760 takes me into Spinny Field and they had indoor outdoor 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.840 carpeting on the floor. It was invariably kind of wet 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:15.120 for some reason. They had those wire mesh lockers like 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:17.560 you had in high school, so if you threw dirty 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:19.760 socks in there that smelled, at least they could air 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:24.080 out a little bit. And they had one twenty inch 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:29.800 color television bolted to the back wall. And Peb could 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:31.920 not get over the fact that they had a television 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.559 in the locker room. He said, I've never known a 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:38.120 foot a television to help a team win a football game. 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:41.800 And I'm thinking, with my background, man, what what what 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:46.559 have I gotten myself into here? That said, I've been 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:51.680 told that that Peb gave me his last interview. I 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.800 don't recall that. I don't remember what we talked about, 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.920 but he was always great to me, same as Mike 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:02.640 has always been great to me. And I wish that 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.560 I had gotten there a little earlier, you know, before 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.480 he passed, and been able to appreciate him more and 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.800 learn more from him than I did. He once referred 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:17.280 to Mike as charming in an exasperating sort of way. 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:24.000 Explain why, Yeah, that still holds true. I mean, Mike, 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.880 Mike is Mike, and Mike will never change, and that's 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:28.640 one of one of the many things that I like 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:36.000 about Mike. Um. Yeah, he never at least I don't think. 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:37.920 I haven't asked him, and I planned to in the 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:42.920 next couple of weeks. He never took personally the criticism 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.920 and man, I leveled Mike over and over and over again. 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.280 Never not took mine and never did not take my call, 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:55.360 never said no to an interview. When we had the interviews, 0:13:55.400 --> 0:14:02.520 he was He was pleasant, but on the other hand, intractable. 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.360 For many years, Mike was Mike, and Mike was going 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.160 to do it his way and if you didn't like that, well, 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:13.320 he didn't really care. If he never took exception to 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.040 something that you wrote. Was there a flip side to 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:17.920 the coin? Did he ever pay you a compliment for 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:22.680 something he wrote? Yes? Yes, I wrote a book about him, 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:26.120 a memoir about raising my daughter Jillian, who has Down syndrome. 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.160 Mike read the book unbeknownst to me. I didn't send 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:35.240 him a copy or anything, and I got, as is 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:40.920 Mike style, I got a two page handwritten letter back 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:46.800 from Mike essentially saying it was a wonderful book and 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:51.600 that he learned a lot about well, obviously my family, 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:56.440 but about raising a child with a disability, and how 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.600 much he liked the book. And I still have that letter. 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.600 In fact, for many many years, I had it under 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:06.200 the glass on my desk in my office here at home, 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.760 and I glanced at it occasionally. A remarkable thing for 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:15.440 him to do. What's the nastiest confrontation you ever had 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.840 with a player coach? I don't, I don't know. There 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:23.560 There aren't many of those. Um, Carl Pickens was a 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.600 strange guy. I don't know if I had a nasty 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.920 relationship with Carl, but he was just different, you know. 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:36.240 I one year he gave me a really great interview 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:42.560 right before the season, and I wrote a pretty complimentary 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:47.600 column about him, not necessarily about football, but just about him. 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.760 And the next day after we had a probably half 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.480 an hour interview where he was very cordial and gracious. 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.040 The next day he acted as if he didn't even 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:01.280 know who I was. You know, hey, Carl, how's it going? 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:07.520 Walked right past me. I had Louis Billips, the old 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.520 the old cornerback who was now deceased, who actually gave 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.320 gave up a touchdown to John Taylor in the Super 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.960 Bowl in eighty nine, threatened to kill me, and I 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.840 believed him. He said, if you ever write another word 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.200 about me, I will kill you. And I never wrote 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:29.000 another word of that. Uh. Mike brim another corner who 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:33.000 was also deceased, UM, got in my face once about 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.200 I'd written a tongue in cheek. I thought funny. He 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.680 did not about how the Bengals were had a great 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.320 win over by last week. They overcame all the odds 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.880 and managed to beat By and Mike took exception of 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.160 that and made an example of me in the in 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:53.320 the locker room in Pittsburgh one time. UM. Other than that, 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.920 I athletes in general. Man, I just think if if if, 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:02.960 if you write honestly about them and try to talk 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.320 to them and show up after you write it, most 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:10.159 of most of them over the years have been okay. Football, baseball. Whoever, 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:16.400 How would you describe your relationship with Sam White? Mum, 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.680 For the longest time I could, I could honestly say 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.080 that Sam White was one of the few people in 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:26.639 the world that I didn't like. Um. When Sam was 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.000 coaching here, he tried to coach the world instead of 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:33.199 the football team, and I made note of that on 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.920 several occasions, and we got into it once after a 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.600 game in a press conference. He said, you can't keep 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.000 your mouth shut, and I shot back, neither can you, 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:47.399 And went downhill from there. In later years as I 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.880 did stuff about those teams, and I'm not sure why 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.000 I did it, what the context was, but I had 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:58.439 occasion to call Sam two or three times maybe in 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.520 the ten years or so over for his death and 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.560 we we we made amends, and he was great. He 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:09.040 had some great stories, and he was another guy that 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:13.800 was that was cut from different cloth. It was a 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.720 lot more social than Carl Pickens was, but they both 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:21.040 had their their quirks. Um. I didn't I didn't like 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:25.640 the fact that he made an example of Lisa Olson, 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.000 the reporter in the Bengals locker room when they had 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:33.160 that big controversy way back when or before that. Sam 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.640 had been okay with any female in the locker room 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:37.880 just about any time. There was a woman named Melanie 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.800 Houser who wrote for the Houston Post way back in 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.320 the day, and every time the Bengals would play the Oilers, 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:47.359 Melanie would come up to Cincinnati for the week before 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:49.520 the game and write stories. And Sam couldn't have been 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.320 nicer to her and made sure she got in the 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.479 locker room I was taking care of and and all 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.160 of a sudden he was anti Lisa Olson. But anyway, 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.919 nobody cares about that. Sam was a good man. Um 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:04.359 Like I said, his reach occasionally exceeded his grasp, and 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:06.480 I disagree with that. And we had some run ins, 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.200 but at the end we'd made peace, and I'm glad 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:14.440 about that. The nineties were rough. You coined the expression 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:18.800 the Lost Decade. Then Marvin Lewis arrived in two thousand 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:23.720 and three and turned things around pretty quickly. What's Marvin's legacy? 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:32.600 Marvin's legacy is of a Sisyphus who actually wins. Who 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.880 gets that damn boulder up the hill before it rolls 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:40.639 back down on him. I hope and I think that 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.320 people appreciate and respect the job that Marvin did here, 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:49.360 because without Marvin there would be no Zach Taylor. Marvin 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:51.800 was able to get some things done here that nobody 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:55.520 before him had gotten done. He was able to convince 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:57.640 Mike that you know, hey, I actually know what I'm 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.439 doing here. Please, you know, work with for me and 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:04.320 let's not butt heads. Mike, to his credit, for whatever reason, 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:08.080 was okay with that iman. Mike still called most of 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.240 the shots, but Marvin got some concessions. He got enough 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:13.159 that he was able to turn this thing around. I 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.800 give Marvin all the credit in the world. He moved 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:22.480 mountains here. He changing I mean turning about changing in culture. Marvin. 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.840 Marvin changed the culture, and it lagged at the end. 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:30.960 I think with Marvin's interest in the gig, but his 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.560 legacy should be that this is the guy that made 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:39.240 everything else after it possible. Paul Dougherty is our guest. 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.240 I mentioned earlier that you collaborated with Chad Johnson on 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.119 a book following the two thousand and five season. What'd 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:48.919 you learn from going back to his childhood haunts and 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:53.040 getting to know members of his inner circle. I learned 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:58.800 that it had to be incredibly difficult for Chad to 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:04.400 make his way in the world as a kid, not 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:10.440 knowing who his father was and having his mother essentially 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:16.240 leave him at her mother's doorstep his grandmother because she 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.720 couldn't deal with him and Chad. I think I don't 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:23.640 remember Dan, I think Chad was five. I mean, imagine 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:27.520 that you've never known your father and your mom decides 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.440 I'm moving to Los Angeles, Chad, but I'm not taking you. 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:38.240 I think that impacted every aspect of Chad's personality. Chad 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:43.840 had a deep desire to be loved, not just by 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:49.240 people close to him, by the world. I'm playing Freud 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:51.760 here and I don't even have a degree in psychology, 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:56.360 but this was a no brainer. I thought all of 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:01.320 what Chad did, all the things that made Chadd, were 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:05.000 a result of his mom dropping him off at grandmom's 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:10.160 and never coming back. Well, if his objective in life 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:13.680 was to be loved, he achieved it. I think so. 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:18.480 I I tired of Chad's andys. I got bored with 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:20.359 him more than anything else because it was the same 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:24.199 stuff over and over again, but interested White did it, 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:30.280 And yeah, I think he's a fairly be loved figure 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:34.760 around here and certainly, if not the best, one of 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.200 the best receivers they've ever had. And that says a lot. 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:40.360 The Bengals have had a lot of good receivers. There 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.560 are a lot of what ifs in Bengal's history. Greg 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:47.240 Cook's injury, Tim Cramri's injury, Jeremy Hill's fumble. The list 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:52.520 goes on and on. What if Kimo von Alhoffen never 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:58.480 made contact with Carson Palmer's left knee. I think they 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:02.800 definitely win that game, and after that it's the playoffs. 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:05.840 Who knows, I Mike Crystal balls have been in the 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:09.000 shop for thirty years and I have no idea. But 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:10.960 but you're right, that was a game they were going 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:16.040 to win. That team had the confidence that this past 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:19.399 year's team had. The fact that it was Pittsburgh didn't 0:23:19.520 --> 0:23:22.679 didn't phase them. You know, that team would never have 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:27.359 lost in two thousand and fifteen to the Steelers the 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:30.720 way that team did the same as that this this 0:23:30.800 --> 0:23:35.200 past year's Bengals team. Um, yeah, I mean the last 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:38.720 past Carson threw was that bomb to Chris Henry, right, correct. 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.080 I mean that was how many plays into the Bengals 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:46.600 offense their their game that day, I don't know, two three? Yeah. 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.159 I think they had the confidence. They knew they were 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:52.000 gonna win, and they would have that day had had 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:55.800 Carson not been hurt. Are you sympathetic to Carson Palmer 0:23:56.040 --> 0:24:00.200 and his legacy of the Bengals? Yeah? Yes, and oh 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:03.119 yeah I am, because he got over on Mike and 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:06.320 I anybody that can do that, I don't know. His 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:12.760 sympathy is the right word admiration, and he had a 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:16.160 point and everybody took it well. It was well taken 0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:19.960 by everybody except probably Mike on the other hand. Enough already, 0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:24.840 I don't need to hear Carson anymore talking about how 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:30.520 bad the Bengals were back then. I mean, they weren't right, 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:34.360 and the team did things that Carson wanted. They got 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.439 him wide receivers, they had a good offensive line. You know, 0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:43.000 I don't know what I understood Carson's beef at the time, 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:45.320 but at some point you just gotta let it go. 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:50.360 Where is Andrew Whitworth on your Mount Rushmore of athletes 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:54.119 that you've enjoyed talking to over the years. Oh, top 0:24:54.880 --> 0:25:00.119 ten five three. I don't know. He was just a 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:02.719 a rock. I mean it was the same way with 0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:07.159 the media that he was as a player, dependable on 0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:12.879 a solid you know, spokesman, senior senior I want to 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:17.920 say senior citizen, but you know what I mean, elder statesman. Right. 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:23.560 I loved Andrew Whitworth. I don't know anybody who didn't. Um, 0:25:24.440 --> 0:25:28.360 and letting him go was one of the bigger mistakes 0:25:28.359 --> 0:25:32.760 a franchises made in the last twenty years. Did you 0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:35.119 feel that way at the time or is it the 0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:40.679 hindsight of the draft picks that that failed. No I. 0:25:38.840 --> 0:25:45.640 I was pretty sure they would do what they did. Um. 0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:48.880 It's it's always a business with the Brown family. Never 0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:51.440 forget that. It's a business with most everybody, but especially 0:25:51.480 --> 0:25:56.639 for them because it is their business. Um. No I. 0:25:56.640 --> 0:25:59.280 I thought it was a bad decision because even if 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:04.359 he was not vintage Andrew Whitworth, he was a huge 0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:08.920 part of that team, of the character of the culture 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:14.000