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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today we have with

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Speaker 1: us the administrator of the US Environmental Protection Agency, also

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Speaker 1: known as the EPA, Secretary, Lee Zelden, Secretary, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's great to be back with you, Tutor.

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Speaker 1: I know where I'm so excited because this is like

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Speaker 1: a totally new role for you. We had you on

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Speaker 1: here before now, and I've worked with you throughout the campaign.

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Speaker 1: I saw you out there every day, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like every time I saw you, if I was on

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Speaker 1: a zoom with you, you were in the car. So you

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Speaker 1: definitely you definitely earned this post. I just want you

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Speaker 1: to know because we saw how hard working you were

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Speaker 1: when you were campaigning, but also just what you've done

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Speaker 1: since it's this entire administration just went off running. As

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Speaker 1: soon as they got their posts, they went out running,

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Speaker 1: and you came to Michigan. So tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit about what that was like, because I think most

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Speaker 1: people know the story of Flint and the water crisis here,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's meaningful to the folks here in

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Speaker 1: the state that you came here first.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to get to Flint as soon as possible,

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Speaker 3: and last Thursday, I was in Flint and Arbor. In Flint,

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Speaker 3: they've been operating under an emergency order now for about

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Speaker 3: a decade or so, and so much has been done

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Speaker 3: to improve infrastructure to respond to this crisis, and it's

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Speaker 3: just so amazing to see how much progress has been

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Speaker 3: made that all of America was watching, and the residents

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Speaker 3: of Flint went through a lot to get to this moment.

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Speaker 3: And this is a point in time where we should

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Speaker 3: be nervous about the future as if levels of government

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Speaker 3: are going to disengage. It's clear that that engagement is

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Speaker 3: going to be staying for a very long time. The

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Speaker 3: federal EPA is going to be engaged in Flint for a.

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Speaker 2: Very long time. This moment is a moment for celebration.

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Speaker 3: This is a moment of a great progress and the

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Speaker 3: water quality is amazing right.

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Speaker 1: Now, and it is a time for celebration. Also, I

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Speaker 1: think it is meaningful to the folks there because that's

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Speaker 1: not typically a city that goes red. It doesn't go

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Speaker 1: for the Republican and I think there was some concern

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Speaker 1: across the country that once the President got into office

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Speaker 1: that he would say we're going to ignore the blue areas,

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Speaker 1: and this being one of the first places that you visited.

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to reiterate very meaningful and we here

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Speaker 1: in the state of Michigan are very appreciative that you

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Speaker 1: came out here. But I want to get into some

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Speaker 1: of the other things that you're doing, because you're kind

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Speaker 1: of on the front line of doge in what you're

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Speaker 1: cutting out, because there has been a massive amount of

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Speaker 1: waste that's gone through the EPA, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: kind of easy to get it through the EPA because

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Speaker 1: it's that feel good place where all we're doing this

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Speaker 1: for the environment, we're taking we're very green. So tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about what you've found.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 3: EPA has a very important mission and we have a

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Speaker 3: lot of amazing people who work here who want to

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Speaker 3: ensure that there's clean air, land, and water for Americans

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Speaker 3: all across the country. And we don't just terminate as

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Speaker 3: you just point out your question about Flint. Doesn't matter

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Speaker 3: whether you're from a red state, a blue state, of

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Speaker 3: purple state where we're right now in Los Angeles with

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Speaker 3: the agency's largest wildfire response ever where in East Palestine, Ohio,

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Speaker 3: Western North Carolina. We just got a mission assignment in Kentucky,

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Speaker 3: what is important is that we do it as efficientally and.

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Speaker 2: Effectively as possible.

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Speaker 3: And when I was going through the Senate confirmation process,

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Speaker 3: there was a video that came out of somebody who

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Speaker 3: was working as a political appointee here at the EPA

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Speaker 3: talking about how they were throwing gold bars off the Titanic,

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Speaker 3: trying to get billions of dollars out the door prior

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Speaker 3: to inauguration day.

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Speaker 2: So these senators were asking.

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Speaker 3: Me, if you're confirmed, are you going to make it

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Speaker 3: a top priority to get answers as to what he's

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Speaker 3: talking about. I said absolutely, And as soon as I

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Speaker 3: was confirmed, working with my team, we set out to

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Speaker 3: find where the gold bars were that he was talking about,

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Speaker 3: and we found twenty billion dollars parked at a bank

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Speaker 3: just outside of government. The issue was that the second

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Speaker 3: half of twenty twenty four is that they had tens

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Speaker 3: of billions of dollars here at the EPA, and they

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Speaker 3: even have the ability to get it out, but they

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Speaker 3: wanted to get it out before inauguration, so they put

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Speaker 3: it at the bank. There was a financial agent agreement

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Speaker 3: with Treasury that was tying EPA's hands behind its back.

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Speaker 3: There was an account control agreement with EPA where EPA

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Speaker 3: was voluntary voluntarily tying its hands behind its back, and

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Speaker 3: a lot of self dealing and conflicts of interest. There's

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Speaker 3: a story that just came out earlier today where somebody

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Speaker 3: who was involved in the council involved responsible for putting

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Speaker 3: this whole package together, sends twenty million dollars.

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Speaker 2: To her employer.

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Speaker 3: There was somebody who was the director of the Greenhouse

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Speaker 3: Gas Reduction Fund who gave five billion dollars to his

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Speaker 3: former employer where he left to enter the Biden administration.

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Speaker 3: Ac Abrams's NGO received two billion dollars.

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Speaker 2: It's a brand new ngo. They had only received one

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Speaker 2: hundred dollars.

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Speaker 3: In twenty twenty three, and in twenty twenty four they

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Speaker 3: got two billion. So when you read the grant agreement

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Speaker 3: to Stacy Abrams's NGO, on page one, it gives them

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Speaker 3: twenty one days to distribute two billion dollars, which is

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Speaker 3: not the craziest part.

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Speaker 2: On page seven, it gives them ninety days to.

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Speaker 3: Complete a training called how to develop a budget. Now,

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Speaker 3: if you need to complete training on how to develop

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Speaker 3: a budget, you should be completing that training before you're

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Speaker 3: spending the first dollar and you certainly shouldn't be handed

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Speaker 3: two billion dollars up front and given three weeks to

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Speaker 3: distribute it. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

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Speaker 3: We're just scratching a surface here in this conversation. I

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Speaker 3: have ensured with our efforts even far beyond this, that

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Speaker 3: we've been able to save not just tens of millions,

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Speaker 3: but more with certain grants that are not going to

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Speaker 3: go out the door, that do not fulfill statutory obligations,

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Speaker 3: that do not fulfill the mission, the core mission. And

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Speaker 3: it's important for us to be good stewards of the

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Speaker 3: tax dollars. That was my pledge to Congress, that's my

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Speaker 3: pledge to the American public.

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Speaker 1: Well, so let me be clear. I want to reiterate

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Speaker 1: what you just said, because here are friends of Biden,

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Speaker 1: and that that needs to be made very clear. These

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Speaker 1: are friends of Biden. This is a failed gubernatorial candidate

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Speaker 1: in Georgia, Stacey Abrams. Failed candidate, but invited to DGA

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Speaker 1: events as a governor. She was invited to all of

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Speaker 1: the gubernatorial events like she was actually the governor. Stacy

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Speaker 1: Abrams was then given her organization was given two billion

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Speaker 1: dollars to spend in twenty one days.

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Speaker 2: Two billion to spend in twenty one days.

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Speaker 1: This is a new organization only ever received one hundred

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Speaker 1: dollars into the org clearly not experienced in spending tens

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Speaker 1: of thousands of dollars billions of dollars, let alone two

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Speaker 1: billion dollars. How much of our taxpayer money has been

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Speaker 1: thrown to the friends of the Democrats.

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Speaker 3: Well, you're talking about twenty billion dollars that were sent

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Speaker 3: to this bank outside of government. That's not the only expenditure.

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Speaker 3: There's also money. There's other moneies that EPA was responsible

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Speaker 3: for pushing out that I don't believe should have gone out.

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Speaker 3: There was fifty million dollars, for example, sent to the

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Speaker 3: Climate Justice Alliance. Climate Justice Alligance says the climate justice

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Speaker 3: goes through Goz, it goes through a free Palestine. There

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Speaker 3: are people who say who they advocate for the term

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Speaker 3: environmental justice, talking about how there are communities that have

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Speaker 3: been left behind, where there are issues that need to

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Speaker 3: be dealt with. I agree that there are communities in

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Speaker 3: America that have been left behind that have important environmental

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Speaker 3: issues that have to be dealt with. But the problem

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Speaker 3: is when in the name of environmental justice instead of

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Speaker 3: spending the dollar on actually remediating the environmental issue in

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Speaker 3: that community, we are instead sending tens of millions of

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Speaker 3: dollars to some group that says the climate justice.

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Speaker 2: Goes through a free Palestine.

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Speaker 3: I think Americans would want that fifty million dollars to

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Speaker 3: be spent. If it can be spent in the name

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Speaker 3: of environmental justice, it should be spent remediating issues in

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Speaker 3: these communities that have actually been left behind.

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Speaker 1: But that's what I mean about waste frauda and an abuse.

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Speaker 1: When you look at your organization, I mean, when you

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Speaker 1: look at your agency, you have the Environmental Protection Agency

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Speaker 1: sending money through Gaza under the guise of environmental justice,

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Speaker 1: but it looks a lot like money laundering.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So in the case of Climate Justice Alliance, this is

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Speaker 3: an entity here in the US but advocating that the

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Speaker 3: path to climate justice goes through a free Palestine. The

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Speaker 3: money that went out to the twenty billion dollars that

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Speaker 3: we're just talking about, I believe that the funds should

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Speaker 3: be returned to government that EPA needs to re establish

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Speaker 3: oversight over this. I'll give you one other example. The

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Speaker 3: Clean School Bus program gave one hundred and sixty million

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Speaker 3: dollars to a Canadian ev school bus company. They then

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Speaker 3: declared bankruptcy and they still haven't delivered ninety five million

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Speaker 3: dollars worth of school buses to fifty five school districts.

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Speaker 3: The money was given up front, the twenty billion dollars

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Speaker 3: that we were just talking about, That money was all

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Speaker 3: given out upfront. I'm someone who believes that when money

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Speaker 3: is given out, it should be tied to performance. That

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Speaker 3: the school bus company makes a school bus, and then

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Speaker 3: you pay them for the school bus. And if something

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Speaker 3: with the negotiation they received some partial payments along the way,

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Speaker 3: then okay, we can negotiate. But the idea of giving

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Speaker 3: one hundred and sixty million dollars up front, what happens

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Speaker 3: if they declare bankruptcy and they still haven't delivered ninety

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Speaker 3: five million dollars worth of school buses to fifty five districts,

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Speaker 3: which is exactly what happened in this case.

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Speaker 1: But how did they declare bankruptcy with that money? That

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Speaker 1: money was there to ensure that wouldn't have happened. So

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Speaker 1: that's it completely ridiculous. And I hear what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: but I gotta tell you. We owned a steel foundry,

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Speaker 1: and nobody ever said to me, you know what, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to pay you upfront for the job, and I

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Speaker 1: hope the castings arrived. I don't know that many people

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Speaker 1: in manufacturing that get paid ahead of time. In fact,

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Speaker 1: oftentimes you have long payment terms with people like I mean,

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Speaker 1: oftentimes we didn't get paid for seventy five days after

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Speaker 1: we shipped a product. You've got to be kidding me

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Speaker 1: that the government is paying in advance. And I don't

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Speaker 1: believe the government is paying American companies like that in advance.

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Speaker 1: And I will just say that we had a similar

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Speaker 1: situation in ann Arbor where we bought we spent millions

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Speaker 1: on a bunch of school buses and guess what. Those

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Speaker 1: school buses didn't run come wintertime in Michigan, and it

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Speaker 1: was a disaster for the district.

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Speaker 2: Kids couldn't get.

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Speaker 1: Places, They had to go back to the gas powered buses.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is all, it's all total first.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and your point is absolutely right, And I'm stating

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Speaker 3: the same exact thing in the case of using this

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Speaker 3: Canadian electric vehicle school bus company as an example. That

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Speaker 3: is why we don't give out money. We should not

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Speaker 3: be giving out money upfront. It's important that it is

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Speaker 3: directly tied to performance and also the way that these

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Speaker 3: funds are overseen. If the government is saying that the

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Speaker 3: government of the United States is not able to distribute

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Speaker 3: tens of billions of dollars, what kind of logic arrives

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Speaker 3: at the conclusion that Stacy Abrams's organization would distribute that

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Speaker 3: two billion dollars better than the government can and the

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Speaker 3: money and listen, it was their words, not mine. They

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Speaker 3: were referring it to tossing gold bars off the Titanic,

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Speaker 3: And in that video they were also saying that they

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Speaker 3: were distributing the money with an eye towards getting themselves

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Speaker 3: jobs at the recipient NGOs. And what we're finding is

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Speaker 3: a lot of self dealing and conflicts of interest where

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Speaker 3: in fact money went to you entities where the people

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Speaker 3: who were involved in the process of getting the money

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Speaker 3: funded and distributed were benefiting from it as well. I

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Speaker 3: have a big problem with that, with that practice that

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Speaker 3: should not be allowed. And lastly, I have a problem

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Speaker 3: with the concept of money going outside the government and

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Speaker 3: going through pass throughs to go through other pass throughs

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Speaker 3: to eventually get to a grantee. And in this case,

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Speaker 3: once the money went through, so it's only eight primary

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Speaker 3: recipients received twenty billion dollars. The account control agreement with

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Speaker 3: EPA was only with those eight primary recipients. Once the

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Speaker 3: money passed through those eight primary recipients, EPA wasn't even

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Speaker 3: a party to the account control agreement.

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Speaker 2: And I'll give you one more point.

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Speaker 3: And I know it sounds like we're getting a little

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Speaker 3: bit in the weeds with some of the terms I'm using.

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Speaker 3: There was something in the account control agreement called a.

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Speaker 2: Notice of exclusive control.

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Speaker 3: If I send to Citybank a notice of exclusive control,

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Speaker 3: so EPA would re establish control over the funds.

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Speaker 2: It actually triggers new rights, new powers.

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Speaker 3: On the part of the grantee, where they then can

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Speaker 3: tell the bank, I want you to send my money

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Speaker 3: to this other bank. So it's not that I do

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Speaker 3: notice of exclusive control and the money is returning to

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Speaker 3: the United States government and the taxpayers. It's not even

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Speaker 3: that states at City Bank, the grantees have a new

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Speaker 3: power to move their money somewhere else.

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Speaker 2: And this is all done by design. It's crazy.

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Speaker 1: Stick around for more coming up with Administrator Lee Zelden.

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Speaker 1: But first let me tell you about my partners at IFCJ.

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Speaker 1: After more than a year of war, terror and pain

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Speaker 1: in Israel, there is still a great demand for basic

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Speaker 1: humanitarian aid. The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews has

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Speaker 1: supported and continues to support those in the Holy Land

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Speaker 1: still facing those lingering horrors of war, and those who

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Speaker 1: are in desperate need right now. Your ongoing monthly gift

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Speaker 1: of forty five dollars will provide critically needed aid to

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Speaker 1: communities in the North in the South that have been

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Speaker 1: devastated by the ongoing war. Your generous donation each month

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Speaker 1: will help deliver to those in need, including evacuees and

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Speaker 1: refugees from war torn areas, first responders and volunteers, wounded soldiers,

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Speaker 1: elderly Holocaust survivors, families who've lost everything, and so many more.

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Speaker 1: You can provide hope during a time of great uncertainty.

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Speaker 1: Give a gift to bless Israel and her people by

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Speaker 1: visiting SUPPORTIFCJ dot org. That's one word, it's SUPPORTIFCJ dot org,

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Speaker 1: or you can call it's eight eight eight four eight

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Speaker 1: eight IFCJ eight eight eight four eight eight IFCJ that's

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Speaker 1: eight eight eight four eight eight four three two five

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Speaker 1: stay tuned. We've got more after this.

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Speaker 2: It blows my mind.

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Speaker 1: I know we're at the end of our time together,

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Speaker 1: but I just want to say, I want to go

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Speaker 1: back for a second to those payment terms, paying in advance.

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Speaker 1: I mean, essentially, this must be going on across the

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Speaker 1: entire agency, because you just told us that this Stacy

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Speaker 1: Abrams organization got two billion dollars and they were told

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Speaker 1: spend it in twenty one days. You can't even build

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Speaker 1: a relationship in twenty one days. And we never had

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Speaker 1: a wee thirty day terms were really good for us

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Speaker 1: at our factory. If we got paid thirty days after

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Speaker 1: we shipped, pretty standard was sixty days twenty one days.

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Speaker 1: They had to spend it all. That means they put everything,

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Speaker 1: all their cards out before they even knew who they

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Speaker 1: were dealing with or something else very nefarious was going on.

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Speaker 2: Right, and that practice ends now. This is a new day.

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Speaker 3: We're not going to be providing these grant funds up front,

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Speaker 3: and that's one of the reforms that we have. We're

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Speaker 3: talking about this clean the Clean school Bus program as

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Speaker 3: a five billion dollar program. Four billion dollars of it's

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Speaker 3: already been distributed, but a billion of it hasn't been,

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Speaker 3: and we're not going to distribute these funds in a

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Speaker 3: way that is fronting all the money to these organizations.

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Speaker 3: And that's just one example. It's like this across the board,

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Speaker 3: and it's an important practice beyond time after we're gone

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Speaker 3: or today or the next day and some other agency.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, everyone should be happy to hear that there are

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Speaker 1: people that are actually looking at how the taxpayer dollars

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Speaker 1: are being spent. I've said for a few weeks now,

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Speaker 1: as I've been looking at everything that's coming out with

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Speaker 1: DOJE and how we're even spending in the state of Michigan, man,

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Speaker 1: politicians are acting like this is play money, but this

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Speaker 1: is our money. So we appreciate the fact that you're

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Speaker 1: taking it seriously and you're going to make sure you're

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Speaker 1: safeguarding where our funds are going and hopefully hopefully fewer

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Speaker 1: of our funds are going to go out and the

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Speaker 1: American people get to keep more.

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Speaker 3: Amen.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Secretaries Leezelden. We appreciate having you

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Speaker 1: on today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Tutor absolutely, and thank.

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Speaker 1: You all for joining us on the Tutor Dixon podcast.

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Speaker 1: For this podcast and others, go to the iHeartRadio, app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and join

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Speaker 1: us next time. Have a blessed day,