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Speaker 1: It's time to get inside the Giants huts.

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Speaker 2: Let's go.

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Speaker 1: On, my Giants, give me some job. Part of the

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Speaker 1: Giants Podcast Network.

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Speaker 2: Let's roll.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to another edition of the Giants Total Podcast, brought

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Speaker 3: to you by Citizens, the official bank of the New

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Speaker 3: York Football Giants.

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Speaker 2: I am John Schmelk.

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Speaker 3: Our special guest today is to continue through our off

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Speaker 3: season episodes of The Giants Little Podcast is Matthew Coller,

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Speaker 3: who's an author of an excellent book called Football's and

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Speaker 3: Numbers Game. It talks about how PFF Pro Football Focus

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Speaker 3: came to be and how it's really impacted the NFL.

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Speaker 2: Matthew, thanks so much for being with us, man. How

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Speaker 2: are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great. You know, I'm still getting used to

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Speaker 1: after all these years of covering the Vikings is my

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Speaker 1: day to day job of uh, the news cycle of

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Speaker 1: the NFL. So there's you know that we're we're in

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Speaker 1: the midst of ota overreactions and random rumors that pop

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Speaker 1: up that you have to dispel and so forth. But uh,

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Speaker 1: I'm having a good time in the off season here. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Needless to say, in the off season, I got many

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Speaker 3: fans asking me about the Vikings, trying to like trade

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Speaker 3: Justin Jefferson, and I'm just kind of sitting there like, yep, guys, Nope,

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Speaker 3: they're they're not gonna do that. They actually just decided

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Speaker 3: not to pay a veteran quarterback just so they could

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Speaker 3: pay a guy like Justin Jefferson.

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Speaker 2: So I know exactly where you're coming from on that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but that doesn't get you many clicks or retweets

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Speaker 1: on social media if you say that. I just want

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Speaker 1: to shout out to all the Jersey Swap people who

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Speaker 1: spend their time making Justin Jefferson a Los Angeles charger

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Speaker 1: or an Arizona Cardinal or all that. I think that

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Speaker 1: you wasted your time because the Vikings have said repeatedly

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Speaker 1: we're going to give an extension to Justin Jefferson. It

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Speaker 1: will happen eventually, but you know, it's not even training

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Speaker 1: camp yet. Most of these contracts, if some of them

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Speaker 1: are getting signed now, but a lot of them, they

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Speaker 1: go into training camp when it's a you know, a

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Speaker 1: big negotiation. So just what did Aaron Rodgers say? The

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Speaker 1: one time are e la X Probably for everybody, So

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Speaker 1: that's what I would say about it. But aside from that,

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Speaker 1: you know, rookie quarterback here in Minnesota is interesting to

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Speaker 1: keep an eye on. So things are good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're recording this on May thirty, so who knows

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Speaker 3: what's gonna happen between then now and when this thing airs.

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Speaker 3: But we've had Jaywen Wattle come down today, we had

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Speaker 3: Nico Collins come down, So the wide receiver market kind

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Speaker 3: of continues to settle itself here as you move forward,

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Speaker 3: Always something fun to keep an eye on. And we're

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Speaker 3: gonna touch on the Vikings and the end here because

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Speaker 3: the Giants do open up their season against Minnesota to

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Speaker 3: trying to get some insight as to what's going on

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Speaker 3: with the Vikings. But let's start with the book here, man,

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Speaker 3: And why don't we start first, because I'm not sure

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Speaker 3: how many people understand how ridiculous the starter Pro Football

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Speaker 3: Focus was and how it began with with Neil Hornsby.

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Speaker 2: Why don't we go through that.

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Speaker 3: We'll touch on how the Giants kind of contributed to

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Speaker 3: its rise and kind of where it is today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to say the Giants contributed is understating it.

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Speaker 1: The Giants played a huge role in PFF becoming what

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Speaker 1: it was. Excuse me, but Neil Hornsby the founder of

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Speaker 1: Pro Football Focus was more or less a random football

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Speaker 1: fan in England who who just kind of became obsessed

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Speaker 1: with the game through a magazine that he found some

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Speaker 1: games that were on television that he could find in England,

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Speaker 1: and radio broadcasts that they had the military radio station

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Speaker 1: that he could get to come in and he started

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Speaker 1: to really become a huge fan of Dan Marino the

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Speaker 1: Miami Dolphins. Tells you kind of what era that was

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Speaker 1: that he was starting to like football and he wanted

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Speaker 1: to just engage with the game a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: He would be reading things and he would have questions,

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Speaker 1: is that really true they're saying this player is great

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Speaker 1: at this or that. So when he started to be

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Speaker 1: able to get access to more information, he started to

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Speaker 1: create a database of NFL history just for fun, and

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Speaker 1: eventually what that led to was him getting DVDs of

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Speaker 1: games and then writing down everything that happened. And once

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Speaker 1: we started to get the rise of the Internet and

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Speaker 1: message boards and things like that, he connected with other fans,

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Speaker 1: some of them you know, Sam Monson being one of them,

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Speaker 1: Steve Pelozzolo, another a guy named Ben stockwell as well,

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Speaker 1: and he started to connect with some of these people

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Speaker 1: on these websites and talk about football, and so he

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Speaker 1: came up with this idea to build a little team

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Speaker 1: that would grade all the players. And this was entirely

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Speaker 1: just for fun, because they wanted to know who really

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Speaker 1: is the best left tackle in the league, like are

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Speaker 1: these Pro Bowls being handed out correctly? Because a lot

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Speaker 1: of times it was essentially on just what broadcasters would

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Speaker 1: say about players. And so eventually as he got more

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Speaker 1: and more excited about this, and he got a tech

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Speaker 1: person named Ian Perks to start building a website for

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Speaker 1: him and just started posting their information on the website,

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Speaker 1: just that they had tracked themselves and information that they

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Speaker 1: had essentially just written down and Excel sheets and then

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Speaker 1: posted on the internet. But John Berger, who worked for

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Speaker 1: the New York Giants, he found this information and reached

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Speaker 1: out to the to Neil Hornsby and said where did

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Speaker 1: you get this? Like how did you come up with it?

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Speaker 1: Because he noticed that the player participation, the snap counts

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Speaker 1: were really accurate to what they had inside the Giants building,

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Speaker 1: and so he wanted to know, like, how are you

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Speaker 1: guys doing this? Do you have secret access to the

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Speaker 1: film or something? And it turned out that they were

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Speaker 1: doing it just off of TV broadcasts, but they were

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Speaker 1: doing it really diligently and really well and at the time,

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Speaker 1: and this just shows you how far we've come with analytics.

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Speaker 1: At the time, the NFL was not releasing the player

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Speaker 1: participation data. You remember this, We still have to wait

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Speaker 1: till the end of the year, and then we would go, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that quarterback played forty seven percent of snaps or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and so if and.

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Speaker 2: More specifically knowing what plays they were in the game for.

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Speaker 2: And that's the trick.

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Speaker 3: I know. I was reading that chapter in the book

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Speaker 3: and you point out like, if a blind backer played

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Speaker 3: thirty percent of a team's plays, well, you still had

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Speaker 3: to watch one hundred percent of the plays to find

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Speaker 3: those thirty And what pff did They lined the data

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Speaker 3: up and you can figure out, all right, well, I

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Speaker 3: only need to watch these plays. That's when the guys

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Speaker 3: on the field, which for guys in pro scouting is invaluable.

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Speaker 3: You're gonna cut their work time in a third just

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Speaker 3: trying to find the guys on the field. You know

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Speaker 3: what it's like, especially back then before you had HD,

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Speaker 3: just seeing the numbers on the all twenty two can

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Speaker 3: sometimes be a pain in the butt's that takes as

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Speaker 3: much time as great in the plays and great in

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Speaker 3: the players half the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's one of the funny stories in the

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Speaker 1: book is that one of the guys came up with

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Speaker 1: a whole system of who wears, what color gloves, what

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Speaker 1: color shoes, and had this entire way of cross checking

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Speaker 1: who was on the field and became one of the

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Speaker 1: most important people because he could get it right so

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Speaker 1: many times. But yeah, you're exactly right that way back then,

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Speaker 1: and it just it sounds like we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: dark Ages here. Wasn't that that long ago. We're only

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Speaker 1: talking about early two thousands here. But it did save

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Speaker 1: time because if you have quality control people, if you

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Speaker 1: have the pro scouts and they're looking for, all right,

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Speaker 1: we need to prepare against this player, when is he

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Speaker 1: on the field, instead of watching every single snap, then

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Speaker 1: you could say, all right, well he was on the

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Speaker 1: field these plays. Let's go find that on our film.

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Speaker 1: And it's saved time. And that's really the story of PFF.

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Speaker 1: Most people know it as the grades that you can find,

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Speaker 1: the data that you see showing up in media all

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Speaker 1: the time, the personalities that they've had through the years

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Speaker 1: that have gone on shows, your show, my show, one

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Speaker 1: hundred times. But what I think most people don't realize

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Speaker 1: is how that fundamental thing of saving teams time and

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Speaker 1: making their operations more efficient led to PFF getting in

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Speaker 1: thirty two NFL buildings and now they influence every single

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Speaker 1: play on every single game plan from every single NFL team,

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Speaker 1: UFL team, CFL team, most almost every single college team

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Speaker 1: in the world because they have created these systems that

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Speaker 1: were on that same fundamental basis. Now it's not just

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Speaker 1: the player usage. Now it's going fifty layers deeper than that.

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Speaker 1: But that was the way that it started with the

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Speaker 1: New York Giants.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think what fans seeing they hear

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Speaker 3: about is degrading from pro football focus. And that's what

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Speaker 3: your point gets clicks, it gets interviews, and it gets

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Speaker 3: stuff like that, and you know, it gets it gets publicity.

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Speaker 2: But their business is really the data part of it.

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Speaker 3: You could take the forward facing media great stuff in

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Speaker 3: literally they could stop doing it what they provide for

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Speaker 3: NFL teams from a data sorting perspective, like someone like me,

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Speaker 3: I have access to PFF Ultimate, right, so you're able

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Speaker 3: to watch the opponent players watch college players in a

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Speaker 3: third of the time before this stuff existed, And really

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Speaker 3: it's the data and the sorting that they provide to

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Speaker 3: these NFL teams that really, to me, will it's going

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Speaker 3: to keep them around forever and maybe someone buys them eventually.

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Speaker 3: However this ends up going. That's the backbone of what

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Speaker 3: they do, not grades.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the grades are an interesting thing too, because

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Speaker 1: when they first started doing the grades, and John Berger

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Speaker 1: for the Giants mentioned this, the coaches were very offended

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Speaker 1: by the idea that people could watch it and grade

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Speaker 1: their players. However, as the years have gone by, and

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Speaker 1: at first I totally understand it why there would be

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Speaker 1: questions about the grades, and there were questions in the

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Speaker 1: media about the grades because who's doing this? How do

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Speaker 1: we know? But as they created more and more layers

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Speaker 1: to the system, the NFL became more influential about what

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Speaker 1: they were doing. So you would have coaches, players, teams

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Speaker 1: giving them feedback, and then they were able to hire

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Speaker 1: people to come on that had NFL experience, So no

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Speaker 1: longer was it Sam Monson just watching a game and

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Speaker 1: writing down what he thought the guy should be graded

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Speaker 1: on a play. The offensive coordinator of the Atlanta Falcons now,

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Speaker 1: Zach Robinson. He worked there in the early days, and

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Speaker 1: so did actually Bobby Slowick, who is the offensive coordinator

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Speaker 1: for the Texans. Both of these guys in their early

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Speaker 1: days in their career. Zach Robinson, right out of the

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Speaker 1: NFL worked there and helped train them on how these

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Speaker 1: things should actually be graded. And as they got more revenue,

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Speaker 1: they added more people to their system. So now, when

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Speaker 1: a quarterback gets graded, and this doesn't mean you have

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Speaker 1: to agree with every grade for every single game that

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Speaker 1: you've ever watched, But when a quarterback gets graded, you

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Speaker 1: have an initial grader who has gone through a lot

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Speaker 1: of training, and there's a huge booklet which I imagine

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Speaker 1: is a PFF or a PDF now, but once upon

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Speaker 1: a time was a five hundred page booklet and so

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Speaker 1: forth of every single play and how it should be

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Speaker 1: dealt with. And things always come up in football that

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Speaker 1: are weird. But then there is a cross checking layer

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Speaker 1: as well, which was and I think it still is,

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Speaker 1: but I know he's working in the UFL as well.

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Speaker 1: Was Bruce Gradkowski who played in the NFL. He would

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Speaker 1: cross check all of the grades for all of the

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Speaker 1: quarterbacks on a given week, and if there was an

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Speaker 1: issue with a grade, then they would have a discussion

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Speaker 1: about where it should be, they would rewatch the play,

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Speaker 1: and so it wasn't just some guy in his basement

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Speaker 1: watching this on a grainy film and putting down this

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Speaker 1: is a one or two or whatever.

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Speaker 2: And what I.

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Speaker 1: Found too is that now there is a lot of

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Speaker 1: different viewpoints on the grades around the NFL. Where As

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Speaker 1: you said, some teams would rather just not look at

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Speaker 1: them and they can delete that line in all of

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Speaker 1: the data, Whereas when I talk to the general manager

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Speaker 1: of the Vikings QUASIADAPFA Mensa about it, he said that

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Speaker 1: he uses them as kind of a cross check method

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Speaker 1: for their own grades, where you can look at it

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Speaker 1: and go all right, our offensive line coach has our

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Speaker 1: center graded out as this for this game, but PFF

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Speaker 1: had it completely different. So is that because PFF doesn't

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Speaker 1: realize someone else missed an assignment? Which does happen for sure. Sure,

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Speaker 1: there's no question there are holes in the system. They've

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Speaker 1: tried to fix as many as they can over the years,

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Speaker 1: but you're never going to have it exactly because you

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Speaker 1: don't know the assignments. But if there might be a

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Speaker 1: difference of some bias on the coaching staff as well,

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Speaker 1: where hey, he drafted this guy, or he's a big

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Speaker 1: fan of this guy, loves his heart, loves his grit,

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Speaker 1: and maybe gives him a little more credit, so they

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Speaker 1: want to know how does that match up. I think

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Speaker 1: the same thing goes for what their scouts say about

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Speaker 1: free agents and potential players they could bring in. And

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Speaker 1: what Quasi told me was that he studied their grades

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Speaker 1: and data when it came to the draft when he

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Speaker 1: first got hired by the San Francisco forty nine ers

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Speaker 1: and presented them with some of the information of what

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Speaker 1: type of grades correlated to success in the NFL, and

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Speaker 1: there was a decent amount of correlation. And then now

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Speaker 1: he's working with that data to even adjust it to

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Speaker 1: try to factor for some of the things that are

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Speaker 1: difficult to know. So the way that it's grown has

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Speaker 1: really been super influenced by the NFL in general.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: And you know a couple of things you mentioned that

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Speaker 3: I don't want to kind of dig and dig in

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Speaker 3: in a little bit more. You know, these gems now

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Speaker 3: have to deal with the grades because you know, when

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Speaker 3: agents called to negotiate contracts, do you know what they

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Speaker 3: cite when they call the general managers, they'll get a

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Speaker 3: site PFF data, So they're good whether they like it

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Speaker 3: or not. And to your point, I know some coaches

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Speaker 3: I've talked to here, you know, they say, you know,

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Speaker 3: I use them as a basis. It makes sense, But

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Speaker 3: gyms have to deal with it because these are what

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Speaker 3: agents are using now. When they call up and they

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Speaker 3: try to negotiate some of these contracts, they'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: well he had the most pressures last year when gosh,

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Speaker 3: what seven years ago, nobody knew what a pressure was.

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Speaker 2: Nobody track these things.

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Speaker 3: Now you know that means more than sacks sometimes when

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Speaker 3: guys go and negotiate some of these contracts.

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Speaker 1: No, you're completely right. And I talked to an agent

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Speaker 1: for the book who it was one of the early

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Speaker 1: contract negotiations he was in. He was looking for anything

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Speaker 1: that could make his case for a Special Teams player,

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Speaker 1: because how do you use statistics other than what tackles

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't really tell the story. But PFF was

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Speaker 1: analyzing each Special Teams play and grading it out, and

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Speaker 1: that was able to give him a hand in that conversation.

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Speaker 1: And well, you know, going to the table and saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: my guys, an eighty four doesn't really totally change the

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Speaker 1: game for the team because they're going to have their

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Speaker 1: own opinion and so forth and try to keep the

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Speaker 1: price as low as possible. But I also think it

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Speaker 1: influences just in general, how we perceive players, as an

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Speaker 1: entire society of football watchers think about offensive line. So

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Speaker 1: I talked to an offensive line coach in this Paul Alexander,

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Speaker 1: a legend in the offensive line community, and what he

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Speaker 1: told me was, if you want to make the Hall

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Speaker 1: of Fame now, you're going to have to have great

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Speaker 1: PFF grades because it's the only way that the world

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Speaker 1: really can get data on this. And he actually you

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Speaker 1: would think he'd be like, oh, I know what they're

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Speaker 1: talking about, but he looked at it a totally different way,

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Speaker 1: where he reached out to Neil Hornsby to try to

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Speaker 1: help him adjust the offensive line grades to get them

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Speaker 1: as accurate as he could, and he at one point

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Speaker 1: watched every playback from the Cincinnati Bengals where he was coaching,

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Speaker 1: and then looked at their grades and only found a

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Speaker 1: handful that he really strongly disagreed with how they had

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Speaker 1: graded it out so even though again it's not perfect,

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Speaker 1: I think that even a lot of the coaches find

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Speaker 1: that it's a similar methodology to what they're using. And

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Speaker 1: the one other point about how some coaches use it.

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Speaker 1: The way Paul Alexander would use it is he would

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Speaker 1: look at the individual plays and how they graded him out,

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Speaker 1: and he could just take the zeros, which means plays

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Speaker 1: where nothing really happened, you didn't really win, you didn't

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Speaker 1: really lose, you just sort of did what you were

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Speaker 1: supposed to do. So he could throw those out and

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Speaker 1: he could look at where it was a plus or

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Speaker 1: a minus to teach his players. So where a guy's

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Speaker 1: getting a minus consistently, well, what's happening? Can I look

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Speaker 1: for trends? Can I sit down with this player and say,

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Speaker 1: all right, all these minuses? So once again, instead of

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Speaker 1: watching a thousand snaps, maybe he's only watching fifty sixty

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Speaker 1: seventy of minuses. I guess you don't want that many minuses,

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Speaker 1: but he's watching those to be able to look for

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Speaker 1: trends to help him coach and be more efficient. So

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Speaker 1: there are a ton of different ways that the NFL

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Speaker 1: and different people have used these grades that are not

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Speaker 1: exactly the way we do where we go. Oh, the

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Speaker 1: guy I had an eighty five, you must have had

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Speaker 1: a good game like that. Obviously that's not exactly how

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Speaker 1: they're doing it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, football season is coming and so is the next

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Speaker 3: college semester. If you need funding, a Citizen Student loan

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Speaker 3: can help you pay for one hundred percent of your

336
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,200
Speaker 3: school certified cost. Get your rate quoted about two minutes

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00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,000
Speaker 3: at citizensbank dot com slash pay for college. And it's

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Speaker 3: funny you mentioned the sorting and that, you know, when

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Speaker 3: I have the second question, I talked about how you

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Speaker 3: can soar data, you know, as one as something that

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Speaker 3: does a little bit a lot of work on the draft.

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Speaker 2: I'm one person. I don't have a staff.

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Speaker 3: I can't watch every you know, I can't watch every

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Speaker 3: snap for every game for all these guys. So this

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Speaker 3: is just inside my process. And it's funny you brought

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Speaker 3: it up. I will literally go for for the offensive lineman.

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Speaker 3: I will watch all of there. And the way, for

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Speaker 3: people that don't understand, pff WU basically has neutral grades

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Speaker 3: for plays where guys either you know, in the backside

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Speaker 3: of play, they don't really impact the player.

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Speaker 2: It's a neutral type of thing.

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Speaker 3: Then you can get anywhere from plus five to plus

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Speaker 3: two point zero, plus point five to plus two point

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Speaker 3: ohor minus point five to minus two point zero right

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Speaker 3: for grades. And that's how you kind of go deviate

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Speaker 3: from like your zero average, and that's how they grade. Right.

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Speaker 3: So what I'll do when I try to watch these

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Speaker 3: college players, I'll watch all the positive great play and

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Speaker 3: all the negative grade of plays.

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Speaker 2: And it really does give you a good idea.

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Speaker 3: All right, here's what the guy's good at, here's what

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Speaker 3: the guy's bad at. And if you can have those

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Speaker 3: two pieces of information, everything else kind of falls into place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I totally agree. And sometimes what Paul Alexander

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Speaker 1: told me is he would sit down with the player

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Speaker 1: and he you know, they would say, ah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't care about this PFF thing, and he would say,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's watch these plays that they graded negative

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Speaker 1: on you, and you tell me where they're wrong, right,

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Speaker 1: And then by the end of that sessions, okay, all right,

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Speaker 1: you know, so forth. But that type of stuff from

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Speaker 1: a scouting perspective, is a total time saver. And then

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Speaker 1: you got kind of go to the other part where

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Speaker 1: I actually don't think it made the book, But I

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Speaker 1: had an XFL coach tell me that one of the

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Speaker 1: things that he did was an XFL UFL one of

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Speaker 1: the fls that was not the NFL told me that

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Speaker 1: what he would do is after they got a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks of data into their season, that they would

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Speaker 1: look at the other team's negative plays and try to

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Speaker 1: identify where have they made mistakes and we could take

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Speaker 1: advantage in our game planning. So maybe we didn't plan

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Speaker 1: initially or wouldn't have planned certain concepts that attack a

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Speaker 1: strong safety for example. But you know what we've noticed

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Speaker 1: is that all of his negative plays, they are you know,

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Speaker 1: having one certain trend or one route combination he's struggling with.

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Speaker 1: So let's dial that up knowing that we've seen it

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Speaker 1: on tape using these grades. So the way that the

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Speaker 1: NFL is applying and think about this, this is just

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Speaker 1: tip of the iceberg. With the way that the NFL

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Speaker 1: is using this stuff. This is their least favorite part

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Speaker 1: the grades when it comes to the coverages, the route combinations,

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Speaker 1: all those things. One of the ways that Neil Hornsby

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Speaker 1: got the NFL's attention was that he and Ian Perks,

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Speaker 1: the tech guy, they created this tool that could draw

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Speaker 1: up the plays based on the tracking information and what

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Speaker 1: types of routes were run. And so that right there

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Speaker 1: really caught the NFL's attention, Like, wait a minute, you

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Speaker 1: can basically give us the chalkboard drawing of every play

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Speaker 1: based on your data. And that is a complete game

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Speaker 1: changer right there for us to be able to see

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Speaker 1: that and not have to draw up the plays by

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Speaker 1: ourselves or right down by hand, all of the route combinations,

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Speaker 1: the coverages, the percentage of coverages, which you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: jealous that you have an ultimate subscription. They didn't give

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Speaker 1: me one for writing the book, but you know, but

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Speaker 1: you know this. You can look up how often did

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Speaker 1: the Giants play cover one in a given game? You

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Speaker 1: can look that up, and.

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Speaker 2: Not just in a giving game.

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Speaker 3: It's hal ofvin You play cover one on third downright,

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Speaker 3: play ever one on second down, and that saves these

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Speaker 3: pro personnel departments so much time. Well, look, you're still

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Speaker 3: going to dive into it because there are different areas

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Speaker 3: of these coverage you can cover different ways and all

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Speaker 3: that stuff, of course, but you know, to give you

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Speaker 3: that headstart on you know, when you first start the process.

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Speaker 3: It really is just such a time saving situation.

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Speaker 1: So then when we think about the second part of this,

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Speaker 1: like what has been the impact, it's not just hey,

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Speaker 1: these coaches are saving time and that's how PFF got here.

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Speaker 1: It's also when you think about the game planning process.

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Speaker 1: Coaches before would have they would have installed their offenses

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Speaker 1: and defenses, and they would have run them out there

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Speaker 1: against other teams, and they would have tried to put

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Speaker 1: in some stuff that they had scouted.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: But now this is like a high stakes type of

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Speaker 1: data technology, my information versus your information on the weekly basis,

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Speaker 1: and what you're asking from the coaches is to analyze

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Speaker 1: the data and where you can find weaknesses in the

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Speaker 1: opponent and then apply that to game plans. You're also

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Speaker 1: asking players, and I think that players now have to

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Speaker 1: have higher IQs about football than ever before in history

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Speaker 1: because each week these game plans are getting more detailed

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Speaker 1: or complicated or adding and subtracting different things because they

437
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 1: are trying to use this data to apply to their

438
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 1: game planning. And just to give you an example from

439
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,680
Speaker 1: the book, the Philadelphia Eagles when they won the Super

440
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,119
Speaker 1: Bowl against the New England Patriots, one of their plays

441
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 1: they found in the PFF data just a couple days

442
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 1: before the Super Bowl, and they found that a certain

443
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 1: type of motion the New England Patriots defense had struggled against.

444
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 1: They went back and watched the plays implemented it. Zach

445
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,639
Speaker 1: Ertz touchdown. That's what the cover of the book is.

446
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 1: Vikings fans were not happy with me that a Philadelphia

447
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: Eagles scoring a touchdown at US Bank Stadium. Probably Giants

448
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 1: fans wouldn't be either. But there's a reason Giants fans

449
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,880
Speaker 1: It's not because I like the Eagles or anything. It's

450
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: because that touchdown was influenced by PFF data.

451
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 4: You're ready for a change. Pay Day comes early with citizens,

452
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 4: so go to that retreat, knew you moves to the

453
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 4: country and launching a lifestyle brand. Are you ready for

454
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 4: all that life brings?

455
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: Yeah?

456
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,439
Speaker 3: And the interesting thing for fans that don't understand how

457
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 3: how this process works. With the coaches, you can literally

458
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 3: sort the plays in a certain way. They'll only have

459
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 3: to do is click on the number of plays you

460
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 3: get no stack and populate all those plays so the

461
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 3: coaches can watch, which again allows you to spot some weaknesses.

462
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 3: For example, just to give a fans an example, what

463
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 3: I'm talking about you can go look at for the

464
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 3: opposing team all the explosive plays they gave up, right,

465
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 3: and then you can say, oh, well, look this is

466
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 3: a weakness, this is where they're weak, and then you

467
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 3: can customize your game plan to your point Matthew based

468
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 3: on where they've struggled before when in the past. Just

469
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 3: putting all that stuff together can can be such a

470
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,400
Speaker 3: time consuming and frankly difficult process.

471
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 1: And not only that, but if you're a team, you're

472
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: looking at your own data and going where did we

473
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: give up explosives? And how can we fix it? So

474
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 1: it's like we know what you know what we know,

475
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 1: so how do we decide what we're going to do?

476
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 1: And that's really been quite the change. The comparison that

477
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 1: I've made to it is, I don't know if you're

478
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: a fan of the game of chess, but I kind

479
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: of got into the game of chess during the pandemic,

480
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: as many people did. And what I found just watching

481
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: YouTube and learning about some of the great chess players

482
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: is that computers have given all the answers to chess,

483
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: and so a lot of times it's which computer game

484
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 1: plan are you going to use? But the other person

485
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: probably knows it, so how can you change it ever

486
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: so slightly to throw them off of their preparation. It

487
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: feels the same way here where the game planning has

488
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: now and I think coaching in general has now increased

489
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 1: in its value even more. And not to say that

490
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: coaching wasn't always super valuable in football, but I think

491
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 1: that that's even gone up and up and up, and

492
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: the coaches who are better at preparing, better at game planning,

493
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 1: better at analyzing this data are getting a significant edge

494
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: over any team that isn't It's funny.

495
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 3: I think one of the chapters you interview Kevin Clark, right,

496
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: who does a great job now he's does Omaha Productions

497
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 3: podcast with Wall Street Journal for.

498
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: A long time.

499
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 3: And you know, he didn't really divulge anything, because I

500
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 3: don't think any of us really know. But a lot

501
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 3: of this stuff that teams are able to do easily

502
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 3: with the PFF DAD is stuff that the Patriots and

503
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 3: Bill Belichick used to dig through the data and do

504
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 3: on their own. Like Ernie Adams is like the man

505
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 3: of mystery over there. This is like the type of

506
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 3: stuff that he did. This is the type of stuff

507
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 3: that John Berger did when Belichick was the defensive coordinator

508
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 3: for the Giants in the eighties, right where you can

509
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 3: find these little weaknesses and opposing game plans, and it

510
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 3: really does. It gave an advantage, I think to the

511
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 3: staffs that are able to dive in and find this stuff.

512
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 3: So now, while the weaknesses, I think you can find

513
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 3: them a little bit easier based on all the information

514
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 3: and technology that we have. But to your point, I think,

515
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 3: how you then go about trying to exploit teams with

516
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 3: all the extra information that's available is what makes the

517
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 3: coaches jobs a little bit more different and a little

518
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 3: bit more difficult based on what they were doing twenty

519
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 3: years ago.

520
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: No, I absolutely agree. And that's where you know is

521
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: it's paralysis by analysis as well. And how do you

522
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: create your processes for evaluating yourself and other teams because

523
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 1: those processes, whatever they were fifteen twenty years ago, have

524
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 1: had to completely change now to the way that they

525
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 1: do it. You did remind me, though, when it comes

526
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: to what we think we know on the outside versus

527
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: what is actually going on inside NFL buildings, because one

528
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 1: of my friends who read the book texted me and said,

529
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: I never would have thought Tom Coughlin would have been

530
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: the analytics guy or whatever. But because in the book,

531
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: John Berger talked about how the more they got the information,

532
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 1: the more that Tom Coughlin wanted to go to John

533
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: Berger and say, hey, can you get PFF to give

534
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: us this? Can we find out that, to the point

535
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 1: where PFF assigned one person just to answer Giants' questions

536
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: and they in the super Bowl the second time they

537
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: went to a super Bowl, they gave that guy a

538
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 1: ticket to the super Bowl because they felt he was

539
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: so valuable in helping them out to answer whatever Tom

540
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: Coughlin's questions were. And that's I think maybe the misnomer

541
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: about analytics and coaches is that coaches, most of the time,

542
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: if you say I have some information that can help

543
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: you beat the other football team, they want it. And

544
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: that's how this thing really grew is because the coaches

545
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: wanted more information, they also wanted it to be accurate,

546
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 1: and so they wanted to help. They wanted to give

547
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: them feedback, Hey you should look at this, you should

548
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: look at that, And then it just continued to snowball

549
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: and get bigger and bigger from there until Chris Collinsworth

550
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: bought the company in twenty fourteen. And that's where it

551
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: really exploded. That's where they could have the money to

552
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: do the college side of things, which has, as you mentioned,

553
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: really changed the way that teams evaluate in the draft.

554
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

555
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 3: I think people's eyes gloss over when people talk about

556
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 3: like win percentages and you know, pends of a percentage

557
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 3: in terms of success and not success. And I think

558
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 3: when people hear stuff like that, and you know, you

559
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 3: set up all these spreadsheets and people are like, oh, analytics,

560
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 3: roll your eyes, it's football whatever. Why you make it

561
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 3: so complicated. All it is this data information and if

562
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 3: coaches can figure out a way to take that data

563
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 3: to allow them to game plan better and actually coach

564
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 3: up the football better, that's what they're looking for.

565
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 2: I think people.

566
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 3: Think about it the wrong way when they think, oh,

567
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 3: the NFL is becoming a computer'sport.

568
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: That's not what it is.

569
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 3: It's the coaches utilizing the information and data at their

570
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 3: disposal to then being able to coach up the players

571
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 3: to make them more effective with that data. It's it's

572
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 3: not that it's becoming an equation. Is that they just

573
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: have more information to game plan better well.

574
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of the talk about

575
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: analytics has been so much focused on fourth down that

576
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: that's become really the center conversation. Is your coach analytical

577
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: or not? Did he go for fourth down or not?

578
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: Which is not really a great way to look at it,

579
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: although there are plenty of signs that we can see

580
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: of where there has been influence, because I think that

581
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: data maybe from PFF didn't directly influence the overall thinking

582
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: of like the entire world about football, including inside front offices.

583
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: But one of the things Thomas Dimitrov said, former Felkins

584
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: general manager, was that you had to prove it all

585
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 1: of a sudden, like if you had an opinion inside

586
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: of a room, you couldn't just say this is my take.

587
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: Once the more information was available, then the conversation went,

588
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: here's my take, But now I really have to explain

589
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: on paper why. And you're always going to have the

590
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: scouts who are watching and they're giving their analysis and

591
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: so forth. But if you're debating should we extend this

592
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: player or that player and how much money should we

593
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: extend them for, it's not just I like the guy,

594
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: so we got to extend him, or I'm very passionate

595
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: about this opinion. The pounding the table that you always

596
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: hear about it's all right, we have to go through

597
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: this in a more analytical way. We've seen it really

598
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: show up in contracts where the money gets spent in

599
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: the NFL, where the draft capital gets spent in the NFL.

600
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: And so it's not just when it comes to something

601
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: like fourth downs, but even with fourth downs when you

602
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: deeply study them, which there has been so many analytics

603
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: people over the years, who have you find that the

604
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: league was behind on the decision making. And I'll give

605
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: you a funny example. I was watching the ninety six

606
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: Super Bowl the other day because why not. It was,

607
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: you know, the Patriots and the Packers, and the Patriots

608
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: are down two touchdowns with three and a half minutes

609
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: left in parcels punts and you go like, what what

610
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: do you what are we doing?

611
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: Oh?

612
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was nineteen ninety six, Like he never would

613
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: have punted today. And most of the time now they're

614
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: doing it in the correct analytical fashion. But if one

615
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: goes wrong, as it did for Dan Campbell, then well

616
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: now you're, you know, doing it wrong because of the results.

617
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: But over the long haul, the NFL has become much

618
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: smarter with these decisions and more efficient because they've studied

619
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: them to the point where now a number of NFL

620
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: coaches have their analytics person in the box upstairs giving

621
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: their input. Doesn't I mean that they always agree with

622
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: them and do it, But I think I want to

623
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: say that Indianapolis, I hope I'm not crediting the wrong team,

624
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: was maybe the first to have the guy with the

625
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: headset on where he was telling Frank Reich, who no

626
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: one thinks of as being like Albert Einstein down there

627
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,239
Speaker 1: or something like an old, you know, NFL player, but

628
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: he wants to know what is the data telling me.

629
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: And Philadelphia was another team that had that information as

630
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: well when they decided to go for those fourth downs

631
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: that really set off the league. I think paying more

632
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: attention to it in twenty seventeen.

633
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 3: Now, if I'm not mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong,

634
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 3: I do not believe they're allowed to have like a

635
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 3: computer up there and running stuff live during the game

636
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 3: where they're you know, they're taking more things into consideration

637
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 3: based on game flow and things like that, and they're

638
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,719
Speaker 3: redoing the formos. You have to go in there with

639
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 3: your physical sheets of paper and data and then you

640
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 3: work off of that because the NFL stows a lot

641
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 3: of rules up there with you know, how much access

642
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 3: to information in film frankly you have upstairs in the

643
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 3: coaches booth, and what kind of information can be sent

644
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 3: down to the coach correct.

645
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe that's right. I think that they can

646
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: have their printed off sheets that would have all of

647
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: their scenarios, and there are formulas that people have come

648
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: up with them. And I am a writer and not

649
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: a mathematician, so I don't entirely understand how this is

650
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: figured out. But you know, there's a lot of things

651
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: that people say you can't factor for that they've already

652
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: factored for when you're doing your individual team sheet, so well,

653
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: you can't factor for who you're playing, well you kind

654
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: of can. You can't always factor for hey, our left

655
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: guard got hurt, so we don't want to run on

656
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: whatever down or you know, for example, a Vikings won

657
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: last year where they punted late in the game that

658
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: Josh Dobbs had thrown three interceptions, and maybe you didn't

659
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: really want to be too aggressive in that scenario where

660
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: you'd already thrown a bunch of interceptions. But most of

661
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: the time I think that they could give you a

662
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: more precise. In a very imprecise and small sample and

663
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: random world, all trying to do is over one hundred

664
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: fourth downs, shift your success ever so slightly, to try

665
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: to win one more game, to try to result in

666
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: a handful of more points than you would have before.

667
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: And I think what's really been interesting to me is

668
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: that I would have thought, like the NBA, where scoring

669
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: has just gone up, and where MLB where everybody was

670
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: hitting home runs and so forth, I would have thought

671
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: that the NFL would suddenly be fifty four to forty

672
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: nine scores all over the place. But it really hasn't

673
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: become that that we haven't seen some crazy explosion because

674
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: as always is the case for football, it's the push

675
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: and pull of the offense defense. So the fourth down

676
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: people are going forward to try to score more, but

677
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: the teams are game plan and more for those fourth downs,

678
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: and they're ready for them, and they could take advantage

679
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: of the failures. And that's why we love this game

680
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: so much, is because the history of it is always

681
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: these like ebbs and flows, and the game has clearly

682
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: changed a lot when it comes to this, and yet

683
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: it hasn't changed so deeply fundamentally like we've seen with

684
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: other sports that have been influenced by analytics.

685
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, one side of just the other side of the

686
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 3: balljust back right. And last year we act you so

687
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 3: I think it was the fewest points that we've had

688
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 3: at scored in the NFL in a long time. The

689
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 3: defense had a real renaissance last year. So it's fun

690
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 3: to see a couple one more thing on the grades,

691
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 3: and then let's kind of talk about where the company

692
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: is now, and then we'll talk about the vikings a

693
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 3: little bit.

694
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: I think what people miss with.

695
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 3: The grades I don't care about like the RU number

696
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 3: like ninety two, okay, whatever, that's fine. You know how

697
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 3: many drops of the player? Well then well how do

698
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 3: they rate drops? What's a drop? What's not a drop?

699
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 3: Guys like that Stuff's not all that important. The point

700
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: is that you now have a point of comparison to

701
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 3: compare player A to player B with the same set

702
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 3: of rules. Right, you can keep track of like I

703
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 3: can manually keep track of drops for the Giants. But

704
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 3: you know what if I don't know what the guys

705
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 3: on the other teams have in terms of drops, what.

706
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: Does those numbers really mean?

707
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 3: The reason to me that this stuff's valuable is that

708
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 3: you get a point of comparison to compare the players.

709
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 3: For you, you cover the vikings, you want to see

710
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 3: how those players compare to the players and the other

711
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 3: team is that's who you're trying to beat, right, And

712
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 3: I think even though to your point, they're gonna make mistakes,

713
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 3: the grades aren't perfect.

714
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: Nothing's gonna be fool proof.

715
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: If you have a basic point of comparison to start,

716
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 3: it makes all the difference in the world for someone

717
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 3: like me and you that doesn't have a pro personnel

718
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 3: staff to go back and watch a million billion plays.

719
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think one of the things about publicly

720
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: with the grades is maybe there's some sort of metaphor

721
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: with music or something right where the general fan knows

722
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: a couple of chords on the piano, But to really

723
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,240
Speaker 1: understand it, you have to be able to play Mozart.

724
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: And that's the unfortunate part A little bit of the

725
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: grades is that you have to understand all the strengths

726
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: and weaknesses and what they tell you and what they

727
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: don't tell you. Just for example, I was talking to

728
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: one high ranking NFL person. I think it was off

729
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: the record, so I won't say who it was who

730
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: basically told me, we're not good at grading defensive backs either.

731
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: Our guys are not good at it. PFF's not good

732
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: at it. And on a year to year basis, you know,

733
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: a Dori Jackson could be the best graded or the

734
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: worst graded, but a lot changed. He was used differently,

735
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: for example.

736
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 3: And they last see that by the way, they say

737
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 3: their defensive backgrades are very volatile, and they're trying to andy.

738
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 3: I forget if I don't know they've done this yet,

739
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 3: but I was talking to Steve pals Ol and they're like, yeah,

740
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 3: we're trying to incorporate Like, how do you grade other

741
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 3: teams not throwing at the player because he's so good, Like,

742
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 3: how do you incorporate that?

743
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 2: It's a very difficult.

744
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: Thing to do, it is, and that's a great point.

745
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: It's like you can only grade the plays that they

746
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: were involved with. It's hard to grade the plays that

747
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: they weren't involved with. And ESPN tried to create some

748
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 1: receiver metrics with that sort of like where they open

749
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: even if the ball didn't go their way, using the

750
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: tracking data, which is a whole nother you know, thing

751
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: that's on its way that had not arrived really yet

752
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: when I was writing the book. But that's adding all

753
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 1: new layers and creating new challenges of Well, the tracking

754
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: data says you had this many pressures, PFF says you

755
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: had this many pressures. Is the guy good or not?

756
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 1: Is something that we're going to have to work through

757
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: in the coming years, I guess, and teams do as well.

758
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: The teams are hiring in mass analytics people just to

759
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: be able to handle this stuff, like what can we

760
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: do with this tracking data? We figured out what we

761
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: could do with the PFF stuff, How can we combine

762
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: the two? How can we pair them for that information?

763
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: But I think with each individual position, like there's strengths

764
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: and weaknesses. You have to understand that if a quarterback

765
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: gets a lot of zeros, as we were talking about

766
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: a lot of routine plays and checkdowns, his grade might

767
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: be higher than a guy who has a lot of

768
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: great plays and some more down plays. But the quarterback

769
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: who has the great plays is probably going to win

770
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 1: more than the guy with a bunch of zeros. And

771
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: we just have to kind of know that. Sometimes it's

772
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 1: almost like PAFF is expected to have every single answer

773
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: baked into a grade. But what I have found and

774
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: it's like, well, we can use our brain, right. And

775
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: what I have found personally from covering the you know,

776
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: an NFL team inside the building and so forth, is

777
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: what their data has done for me is allowed me

778
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: to ask a lot of questions to try to answer

779
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: where the holes are in the grades. And I'll give

780
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 1: you an example.

781
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: And by the way, funny thing, real quick, you mean

782
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 2: to drug you?

783
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 3: I bet you when you asked those questions, the team

784
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 3: already knows about it too, and they're like, yeah, we know,

785
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 3: and then they already have the answer ready right.

786
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: Well, And a lot of times I don't even need

787
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 1: to say, hey, the PFF grade says this, but I

788
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: will say having an analytics based general manager, it becomes

789
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: a lot easier to say, hey, what's up with this

790
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 1: PFF grade because he gets where that's coming from? Maybe

791
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: different than Mike Zimmer in the past, who did not

792
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: want to be asked about that, which I included in

793
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 1: the book. It was a great one there on that

794
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: that was a great quote. Yes, yes, and I understand

795
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: where Zimmer was coming from. Sometimes, by the way, the

796
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: team will say, we don't care about those grades because

797
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 1: they're being asked about a bad grade, and they don't

798
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 1: want to say, yeah, we actually think he's bad too.

799
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 1: It's we've got different information or whatever, rather than saying that.

800
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: But a good example is, for years, Mike Zimmer would

801
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 1: argue in the favor of Anthony Barr, and he would

802
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: talk about how valuable Anthony Barr was to their operation.

803
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: Remember the number one defense in the NFL twenty seventeen.

804
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 1: Those Mike Zimmer defenses were phenomenal when he took over,

805
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: But if you look at the PFF grades, you would

806
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: have a tough time parsing through to say where it

807
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: was special. But the thing about Anthony Barr was he

808
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: was their green dot player, and so he was making

809
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: changes and shifts to the defense and adjustments, and he's

810
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 1: just a very highly intellectual player. And so all these

811
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: things that they would do to make their defense difficult

812
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 1: on offenses, the adjustments, the checks, the changes, all those stuff,

813
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: it was all going back to him. Now, the splash

814
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: plays were maybe not there the way that it might

815
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: be for some other star players. But if you can

816
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: have a guy who's facing Eli Manning, for example, and

817
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: Eli is trying to make changes at the line of scrimmage,

818
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: and you're checking the different defenses and then you mess

819
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: up Eli Manning. That's a play that you can't put

820
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 1: in a PFF grade, And that I think was his argument.

821
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: And you know how a team would have to game

822
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: plan to avoid Anthony Barr's size and speed combination. Like

823
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: you mentioned, you can't grade the plays they're not involved with.

824
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: But we know all this and that's been very interesting

825
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: to me to fill in the gaps. So, hey, why

826
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: is his PFF grade not great and yet the team

827
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 1: loves him? Let me try to figure that out. And

828
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: I just I think if you have intellectual curiosity about

829
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: the game, these can guide us in very interesting ways

830
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: about a lot of players.

831
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 3: Any other anecdotes from the book that you found particularly

832
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 3: interesting that you think fans are gonna kick out of

833
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 3: that we haven't talked about yet.

834
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: I think one is just how Chris collins Worth ended

835
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: up buying PFF, because that's a question that comes up

836
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: all the time, like, wait, Chris collins Worth, it owns PFF.

837
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: He was trying to prepare for some broadcasts and ran

838
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 1: across their information and so he liked it. He thought, oh,

839
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: this is really interesting. They've got these details and they've

840
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: got different grades. On players and what is all this?

841
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: So he emailed their random contact us thing and it

842
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: went to Neil Hornsby. He calls Neil Hornsby, he answers,

843
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: he finds out it's a guy from England and he

844
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: thinks that he's just been hoodwinked out of his ten

845
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 1: bucks that he paid to sign up for the website.

846
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: They well, who is this guy? And then it's only,

847
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: you know, not too long after that he's buying the

848
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: company after he starts to dive into the information, the

849
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: relationships with teams and so forth, and then built the

850
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: company from there. But there's one hundred different things that

851
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: had to come together in order for PFF to be

852
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: the analytics company of the NFL. But that's just one

853
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: of the funny little things. And I will say too

854
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: that as far as Chris Collinsworth goes, another question is like,

855
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: is he actually worked there? Does he just kind of

856
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: throw in some money into an investment. It's ah, it

857
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 1: is a huge, huge part of his heart. Uh, this

858
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: this company. His son works with him there. It's it's

859
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: a big part of his family. So I think that

860
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: he doesn't talk about it a lot. I don't think

861
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: he wants to you know, be too public or use

862
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: NBC to be too much of a vehicle to promote it.

863
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: But it matters a lot to him that that company

864
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: and he's a huge, huge part of its success.

865
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 3: The other antecdote I like, and you know, we kind

866
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 3: of glossed over and we talked about with the Giants

867
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 3: how when Neil and John Berger tried to connect to

868
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 3: talk about it, why Berger had to have Neil call him, which,

869
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 3: by the way, I can confirm that this is absolutely true,

870
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 3: so you could tell the story.

871
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there was there was something that like

872
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 1: they couldn't call out right, it was like they couldn't

873
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: make an international.

874
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 3: Yes, we did not have a long distance We did

875
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 3: not have long distance service in the old Giants facility.

876
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 2: That is and the reason I know this is true.

877
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 3: By the way, the Giants were one of the first

878
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 3: teams to play in London in two thousand and seven.

879
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 3: In fact, we were the first team to play in

880
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 3: one than in two thousand and seven against the Dolphins.

881
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 3: Cleil Lemon started for the Dolphins in that game, legendary

882
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 3: Cleo Lemon, And when we were trying to organize that

883
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 3: trip as the first time NFL team had went out

884
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 3: there since like the early nineties, we couldn't call long

885
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 3: distance from the office phones. We all had to use

886
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 3: our cell phones. So anyway, not tell the story. It's funny.

887
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well that's a he thought. Neil thought that

888
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: someone was playing a prank onup right. He was like,

889
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: what do you mean an NFL team can't call me?

890
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 1: So he he saw the email and he asked his wife,

891
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: do you think that the guys are messing with me?

892
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: You know, the other guys pretending to be an NFL team,

893
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: And uh, Nope, it was actually uh John Berger, who,

894
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, is one of the great guys I spent.

895
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: So I originally grew up in Buffalo, and after the

896
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: interview with John Berger for the book, we reminisced about

897
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: the ninety Super Bowl, of course, with you know, the

898
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: Bills and Giants and the field goal. That was like

899
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: my first memory of sports growing up. So yeah, I

900
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: know that was a little rough. So then I moved

901
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: to Minnesota, where all we do is win championships here

902
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 1: tend to get away from those four Super Bowl losses.

903
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, all, right, before we touch at the vikings,

904
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 3: what's next? Now? You already kind of touched on with

905
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 3: the GPS tracking data right, how teams are trying to

906
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 3: you know put that in. I know it's actually we

907
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 3: had talked to Cynthia Frieland a couple weeks ago and

908
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 3: she was complaining how all the college conferences at different

909
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 3: GPS systems that it kind of makes it impossible to

910
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 3: organize all that stuff. But like, what's next for PFF

911
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: and know they have pff IQ now they try to

912
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 3: use AI with stuff they're doing tracking systems stuff with

913
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 3: with with the the player tracking. What's the next thing

914
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,879
Speaker 3: that's gonna pop up here that's going to annoy people

915
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: that don't like change.

916
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that is a really interesting question because PFF

917
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 1: did deal with some business stuff. They got a huge

918
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: investment from an investment firm and then how the money

919
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: got distributed was a big challenge for them. And you saw,

920
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure that some of their biggest names have left

921
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: over the recent years. Now they're trying to move on

922
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: from original people that were there and replace them and

923
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: it's been a little bit of a dicey situation for

924
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: them over the last few years. You know, there have

925
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 1: been someone like Eric Eager actually just got hired by

926
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: the Carolina Panthers, but he was one of their key

927
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: data scientists who was building IQ as a major part

928
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: of that operation. So he left to go work for

929
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: Sumer Sports, which Thomas Dimitrov is at the top of,

930
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 1: and then the Panthers hire him. But they've been kind

931
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: of dealing with a transition here. I think when you

932
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: go from a small company to trying to be a really,

933
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: really big company. I've seen this a lot that it's

934
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: not an easy challenge. So they're dealing with that. But

935
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: as far as the amount of information, I just think

936
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: the hardest thing is going to be when the NFL

937
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: dumps a huge amount of data on you that has

938
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: no historical background to study, how do you know if

939
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: it matters or not. So I'll give you just a

940
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: totally random example. The po in my head the receiver

941
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: from North Carolina, is it tes Walker or yeah. So

942
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 1: at the Senior Bowl, he ran the fastest of anybody

943
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: at the Senior Bowl and he dropped every pass at

944
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:15,280
Speaker 1: the Senior Bowl.

945
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: Also, But the.

946
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: Fact that he ran the fastest, does that mean that

947
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: he's super fast on the field like his play speed

948
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: or is that a thing where the play that he

949
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: was running got him up to peak speed. I'll give

950
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: you an example in baseball of how this could be weird.

951
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: An outfielder through the ball one hundred and forty seven

952
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 1: miles an hour from the outfield. They're like, yeah, always

953
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 1: running full speed, you know, Like it's not he's not

954
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: making the same throw as Roberto Clemente at the wall,

955
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: the famous one where he spins around and throws it

956
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: to the you know, home plate or something. How do

957
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: we know exactly if that means that tes walker? Although

958
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: I think everyone knows he's fast in general, but just

959
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: as an example, do we think that that said his

960
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 1: play speed actually on the field is going to be meaningful?

961
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: Does that not mean anything? Does it?

962
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 3: Like?

963
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 1: And this is just one of a gazillion examples, But

964
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: I'll tell you where it's really getting fascinating is what

965
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: Amazon is doing right now. I don't know if people

966
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: have watched any of the Amazon Prime broadcasts where they

967
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: show the data on film, but they have built AI

968
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: algorithm whatever things to identify when players are blitzing based

969
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: on their locations, based on their movements, and this could

970
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: be something that if the data is sharp enough, which

971
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: I think it's on the way and it's been pretty

972
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: accurate they can use to train quarterbacks. Of all right,

973
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: this is what the AI is trained to see. How

974
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: can we train you the same way to see the

975
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,879
Speaker 1: same things. So normally we would just know, okay, if

976
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,280
Speaker 1: he's there, then maybe he's blitzing based on your game planning.

977
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: But this could be much sharper and much more precise

978
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 1: about like this is the exact location of this player

979
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 1: when this team blitzes, or his movements forward or whatever

980
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: it might be. And when we're getting to that level,

981
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 1: like this is now a totally different ball game from

982
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 1: just saying, hey, this guy's got a bad grade against

983
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: you know, Cover one or whatever, and the arms race

984
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: for data, whoever is ahead is going to I think

985
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: have an advantage. But then the reality of football that

986
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: Mahomes guy keeps winning all the Super Bowls. Yeah, so

987
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, But what I do know

988
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: is that the NFL from from now going forward is

989
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 1: a data game, and whichever team can harness it the best,

990
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 1: I think we'll get an edge.

991
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 4: You love turf, You're good at it, So you start

992
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,319
Speaker 4: a turf fizz business, grows, your savings grow, become the

993
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 4: most celebrated name in turf?

994
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: Are you ready for all that life brings?

995
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: Now? I'm with you, all right. Giants vikings week one.

996
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 3: The NFL, i'm sure is rooting for JJ McCarthy to

997
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 3: start that game, so you have the storyline Giant passed

998
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 3: on JJ McCarthy week one starting against the Giants, and

999
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 3: they can pump that up. But is he I've heard

1000
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 3: different people that cover the team tell me different things.

1001
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 2: Do you think McCarthy starts week one?

1002
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: I I just want to know if Donald starts week one,

1003
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 1: if there will be some sort of New York media

1004
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: attempt at revenge game, like getting revenge on the city

1005
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: or the stadium, like if we're gonna stretch, because I've

1006
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: seen revenge game narratives get stretched pretty far. So maybe

1007
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,479
Speaker 1: they'll like that Donald's return to New York.

1008
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 3: I think the Giants played him when he was starting

1009
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 3: for Carolina.

1010
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 2: I think I've double checked that. I think that's happened

1011
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: once ready, but I gotta double check that.

1012
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: But to your point, at this moment, Sam Donald is

1013
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,919
Speaker 1: QB one and it's not particularly close when it comes

1014
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,479
Speaker 1: to their OTA practices. There's the starter field and there's

1015
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: the young player backup rookie field, and JJ McCarthy has

1016
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:57,959
Speaker 1: not made his way over to the starter field yet.

1017
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: It's been Actually Nick Mullins is QB two right now.

1018
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 1: We are talking at the end of May, so there

1019
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: is a very long way to go here. My observation

1020
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: is that Sam Darnold has looked like a very professional

1021
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: quarterback at practices who is pretty comfortable with what he's

1022
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: doing right now, and he certainly has the arm of

1023
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: a former top draft pick. And JJ McCarthy looks like

1024
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: a rookie who was the youngest quarterback that was taken

1025
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,919
Speaker 1: in this draft. And the Vikings have been very clear.

1026
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: We talked to Josh McCown about this just the other day.

1027
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: They have been very clear about patience. And Josh McCown

1028
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: was in Carolina last year where they pushed a guy

1029
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,760
Speaker 1: who clearly was not ready to play in the NFL

1030
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: out there and Bryce Young with bad teammates, not maybe

1031
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: the perfect scheme and so forth for him, and it

1032
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: was a total disaster. And I think that was influential

1033
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: to why Kevin O'Connell wanted to bring in McCown, as

1034
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: he had that experience watching it all go wrong for

1035
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: Bryce Young, and they want to avoid that I would

1036
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: be at this point and this is right now. You

1037
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: can ask me before the game. Maybe I'll feel differently,

1038
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: but I would be very surprised if JJ McCarthy is

1039
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: starting Week one because of that. Now week seven that

1040
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: might be a different story. But I think that they're

1041
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: going to want him to go through that process of

1042
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: watching Sam Darnold prepare because say what you want about

1043
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: Sam Donald, he's a professional quarterback. He's won games in

1044
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: the league, He's played for Kyle Shanahan, He's had some

1045
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: bad circumstances before. I'm not saying that he'll be the

1046
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: next you know whatever, Gino Smith or Baker Mayfield, but

1047
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: he is a professional quarterback and he's handled this situation

1048
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 1: really professionally in that way as well as a mentor

1049
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: role or whatever you want to phrase it as for

1050
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: JJ McCarthy. So give him an opportunity to see how

1051
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,439
Speaker 1: a game plan is done. You know, see the bright

1052
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,479
Speaker 1: lights from the sideline at first. And we always want

1053
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: to push these guys. We just everything, you know, no

1054
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: matter who it is. We got so excited about him

1055
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: the draft, like get him out there, But I don't

1056
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,479
Speaker 1: think that's always the best plan. For everybody. It worked

1057
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: for CJ. Stroud, but you know, for other quarterbacks, it's

1058
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: better to develop for a couple of years. And I

1059
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: think just even from the standpoint of throwing the football,

1060
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: what you see in practice is JJ McCarthy throws it

1061
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 1: really hard, and he throws it really hard every single time,

1062
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: no matter what route we're talking about, So you can

1063
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: see the physical talent. But Brian Dable would know all

1064
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,479
Speaker 1: about this. With Josh Allen, you draft a young guy

1065
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: who's got a ton of talent, who's super raw. You know,

1066
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 1: he's a five star recruits, you know, the Michigan quarterback like,

1067
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 1: he's got the pedigree, but he doesn't have the refinement yet.

1068
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 1: So we just have to allow that to come to

1069
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: fruition rather than demanding that he gets out there right away.

1070
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna call myself a Sam Darnold truther, but

1071
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 3: I was a fan of his coming out. You mentioned

1072
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 3: he was in some very bad situations in New York

1073
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 3: and then in Carolina. Based on people you're talking to

1074
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 3: in the organization, do they do they think that, you know,

1075
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 3: you guys have a pretty good ecosystem there in Minnesota.

1076
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:56,439
Speaker 2: You have a very good offensive coach.

1077
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 3: But you mentioned McCown really good wide receivers, a good

1078
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 3: offensive line. I mean, this is one of the best

1079
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 3: situations you can get put in it if you're a

1080
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 3: quarterback trying to restart your career. Do they think that

1081
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 3: Sam Donald can play well enough to keep McCarthy on

1082
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 3: the bench for maybe even longer than that you know,

1083
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 3: six seven week period you're talking about.

1084
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: I do think that they have a really tough schedule

1085
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 1: to start the season, which is going to be the

1086
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: true test of whether macarth the you know, is gonna

1087
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: get out there early or not. But with Sam Donald

1088
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: in general, I don't love to make excuses for quarterbacks

1089
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: because I think that the great ones will take a

1090
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,359
Speaker 1: bad situation and make it good.

1091
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, the great ones can, but the above average you're

1092
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 3: good about it, I think they really struggle with it.

1093
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:42,240
Speaker 1: You know, if you are the fifteenth most talented player,

1094
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: can you be pushed into the top ten or into

1095
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 1: the bottom ten?

1096
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely exactly?

1097
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: Now, he hasn't he hasn't been great. But I mean,

1098
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: and I sort of we're talking about statistics, so allow

1099
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: me to break a statistical rule here and talk about

1100
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: like his last whatever number of starts you know this

1101
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: is not a good thing to do, but his most

1102
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 1: recent performance, he was eight and nine with a really

1103
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 1: miserable situation in Carolina, with something like a ninety quarterback rating,

1104
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: which sounds like normal average NFL quarterbacking. And if you're

1105
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: talking about giving him Justin Jefferson, Jordan Addison, who I

1106
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: don't think enough people are talking about. TJ. Hockinson will

1107
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: return from his injury. Aaron Jones is here. They have

1108
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: a pretty solid offensive line for the first time in

1109
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: a while, and they have a scheme that is designed

1110
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: to get great wide receivers open. I'll infuse some data

1111
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: here for you. I was just writing about Justin Jefferson

1112
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 1: and his contract thing the other day, and there was

1113
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: a chart of the PFF data about coverages and how

1114
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: receivers perform against different coverages. Justin Jefferson was only in

1115
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 1: the realm of Julio Jones when it came to beating

1116
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 1: both man coverage and zone coverage. If you have a

1117
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: receiver who cannot be covered no matter what type of

1118
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: coverage you use, I'm gonna throw out there's a hot

1119
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: football take that's helpful to a quarterback. And I sat

1120
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: there and watched case, Keenum throw to two of the

1121
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: best wide receivers in Stefan Diggs and Anam Thielen and

1122
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: have a great season. This guy is much more talented

1123
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: than that. I don't think you're ever going to get

1124
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 1: rid of the Sam Darnold moments. When I was watching

1125
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: back his games in Carolina, even the ones that he won,

1126
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: there were backfoot throws that went forty yards down the

1127
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: field for interceptions that were totally unexplainable. I think he

1128
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,280
Speaker 1: tries to do too much with all that talent. Sometimes

1129
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 1: he did it at USC. He's done it in every stop,

1130
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: so you're not gonna be able to contain him. But

1131
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 1: could you make it into a less interception prone Jamis

1132
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 1: Winston type of situation where you know he throws a

1133
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 1: lot of touchdowns, there's a lot of mistakes, but if

1134
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 1: it's not thirty interceptions, it could be pretty good. And

1135
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,760
Speaker 1: I guess from my perspective, the message to Vikings fans

1136
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: in general is a of course, you're gonna have to

1137
00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: be patient. But it might be almost thematic with the

1138
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: Vikings history, with guys like Randall Cunningham and Jeff George

1139
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: and so forth showing up here. Case Keenum, but it

1140
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: might be a pretty fun season to see the roller

1141
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: coaster that is Sam Donald, but also an opportunity to

1142
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: see somebody completely change the narrative about their career because

1143
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: of the situation that they're in. I think that's a

1144
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: very real possibility. And yes, people within the Vikings do

1145
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 1: think that about Sam Darnold, and even you know, some

1146
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: of the receivers have said like, oh, you know what,

1147
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: it's going pretty smoothly out there from maybe what we

1148
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 1: thought coming from Kirk Cousins. And if you want to

1149
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: spice it up a little, I think Kirk Cousins numbers

1150
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,720
Speaker 1: were pumped up pretty good by Justin Jefferson and Jordan

1151
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: Addison and Adam Thiel and not saying he's not a

1152
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: really good quarterback, but it certainly didn't help him or

1153
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 1: didn't hurt him in this latter half of his career

1154
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: to have some of the absolute best wide receivers. I

1155
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 1: think that that could help someone like Sam Darnold as well.

1156
00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 2: Two more quickies. When does TG Howkinson you think it

1157
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 2: make it back?

1158
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: Definitely not week one. I would be really shocked if

1159
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 1: he came back week one. That injury happened late in

1160
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 1: the season, and then he had to wait to have

1161
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: surgery because the MCL was hurt as well, so they

1162
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: decided to let the MCL heal before they did the

1163
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 1: ACL surgery. This is your medical portion of the podcast,

1164
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 1: but that's just my understanding of how that works. Don't

1165
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 1: ask me what any of that is. But that's why

1166
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 1: the delay happened. And so we haven't seen him do anything.

1167
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 1: I just wouldn't expect him out there for week one,

1168
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: So I think you might be getting Robert Tunyan. Maybe

1169
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: he looks pretty good out there. I'm not kidding, Like

1170
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 1: Robert Tunyan actually looks pretty good out of Oza's so

1171
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: him or Johnny munt.

1172
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 2: All right, very good.

1173
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 3: And then finally Brian Flores had to be creative is

1174
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 3: the word I'll.

1175
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 2: Use on defense last year and how he operated.

1176
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 3: I feel like some of the effectiveness are to slip

1177
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 3: away a little bit towards the end of the year

1178
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 3: as teams figured out what they were doing with a

1179
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 3: lot of either their you know, eating men drops or

1180
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 3: a lot of their big time pressure packages. I know

1181
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 3: they added some guys to the defense to try to

1182
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 3: make the town a little bit better. What do you

1183
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 3: think this Vikings defense looks like this year and in

1184
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 3: year two with Brian Flores.

1185
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, what we saw last year was if you are

1186
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 1: a good quarterback, it was fine for you. If you

1187
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 1: were not a great quarterback, Brian Flores took your soul

1188
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: or experienced it would be maybe another way of putting

1189
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,920
Speaker 1: it as well, that the Justin Herberts, the Jared Goffs,

1190
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 1: they didn't really have a whole lot of problem because

1191
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 1: at that point it came down to just talent. And

1192
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: the Vikings also had some injuries at the end of

1193
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: the season. They lost Bira Murphy Junior, who was their

1194
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 1: top corner last year, and when he was out, the

1195
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: depth was just not there. Depth is still a problem

1196
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: for this defense. But they lost to Neil Hunter, which

1197
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 1: is enormous, one of the best players in the NFL.

1198
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: But sometimes on defense, I'm sure you've seen this happen

1199
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 1: a number of times before. If you have three guys

1200
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: that are B plus or one guy who's A plus,

1201
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: the three guys that are B plus are going to

1202
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: be more valuable for you that it's usually about what

1203
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: you can't do or your weak links, the things that

1204
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: hurt you the most. So you can have Lawrence Taylor

1205
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: over on the edge, but if nobody can cover behind him,

1206
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 1: it's not gonna still work out for you all that well.

1207
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: So I think what the Vikings have done is that

1208
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: they've shored up some of those little areas that consistently

1209
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: hurt them last year. All respect to Jordan Hicks as

1210
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: a player, you've you know, you Giants have done battle

1211
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 1: with Jordan Hicks for a long time, but it was

1212
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: on the older side. So they bring in someone like

1213
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 1: Blake Cashman a little more, a little more spry, can

1214
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: do a little more in coverage, that type of thing.

1215
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 1: They bring in a corner Shaq Griffin, who is not

1216
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: like an elite corner, but a starting caliber player in

1217
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: the league that could play a little more man coverage

1218
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 1: for them so they don't have to rest on their

1219
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: zone coverage all the time. They can ask to be

1220
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: a little more man heavy. Yeah, things like that, bringing

1221
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: in Grenard, drafting Dallas Turner, bringing in Andrew van Ginkel

1222
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 1: as well, who not a lot of people know Andrew

1223
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: van Ginkel. Most people go that can't be his real name, right,

1224
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: it is, but he was one of the most versatile

1225
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 1: players in the NFL last year and a guy who

1226
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 1: graded extremely high by PFF. So they I think they've

1227
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 1: just added these little pieces that have made them a

1228
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: little deeper, maybe more flexible. They could get Harrison Smith

1229
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: off the field occasionally and move Josh Bettelis back to

1230
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: a traditional safety position. I think it's going to be

1231
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: a stronger defense. If you look at the opposition that

1232
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 1: they're going to play, it might not rank higher because

1233
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: it is a very tough schedule. The NFC North is

1234
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: just a bear. They did it a bear. It's really tough,

1235
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 1: and so that they might end up with the fifteenth

1236
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 1: best defense but actually be a pretty good unit as

1237
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 1: far as Week one though, I mean, who knows what

1238
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: type of blitz is. Brian Flores has spent all offseason

1239
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 1: coming up with.

1240
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 3: Absolutely The book is Goal with footballs and numbers game,

1241
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 3: Pro Football Focus and how a data driven approach shook

1242
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 3: up the sport. Matthew Kyler, Matthew, tell the folks where

1243
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 3: they can find the book and where they can find

1244
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 3: all the other great work you're doing covering the vikings.

1245
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the best place to find the book

1246
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 1: is just Google or Amazon. Just go there. Football as

1247
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: a numbers game should pop up with all the wonderful

1248
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: reviews from people who have read it. Appreciate everybody doing that.

1249
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: And uh, purple insider dot com kind of houses all

1250
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 1: the different stuff I have the daily writing there, the podcast,

1251
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 1: the YouTube, the I don't know that I put my

1252
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 1: linked in my MySpace. Thanks. You can. If you're an

1253
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 1: off the office fan, then you can get a wolf

1254
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 1: from me. If you know that reference.

1255
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 2: I do know the reference.

1256
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 1: Okay, whatever, It's all there Purple Insider dot.

1257
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 3: Com, breedthoughts dot blogspot dot com. This was one of

1258
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 3: the right football season is covey so is the next

1259
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 3: college semester. If you need funding, a Citizen Student loan

1260
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 3: could help you pay for one hundred percent of your

1261
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,080
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1262
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:45,919
Speaker 3: minutes at citizens bank dot com slash pay for college Matthew.

1263
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the time.

1264
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 3: The Giants Little Podcast is brought to you by Citizens,

1265
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 3: the official bank of the Giants.

1266
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 2: Enjoy your off season, everybody. We'll see you next time.