WEBVTT - Piketon Uncovered 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:03.920 Welcome to the piked In Massacre Episode nine. We're going 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:06.880 to do something a little bit different for this episode 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:12.039 and go into the process of producing the podcast and 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.520 also answer some questions we've been getting over social media. 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:19.240 I'm Courtney Armstrong. I work at Kat's Studios with Stephanie 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:20.720 Leidecker and Jeff Shane. 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:23.479 We're finally together again, distance but together. 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.200 Yeah, because of COVID we've all been recording separately, but 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:31.000 we're actually in the same socially distant space today for 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.120 the first time in many months. 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:41.519 And we are sitting outside to keep safe. 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:44.520 One of the things a bunch of people have asked 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:48.800 about is how we came upon this case, And Jeff, 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:50.280 do you want to speak to that, because you really 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:51.400 were the impetus for it. 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:51.800 Yeah. 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.920 At KAT Studios, we do a lot of true crime programming, 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:58.000 and so we're always kind of on the lookout for 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.720 interesting cases that are like aired and complex that could 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:06.880 make for you know, compelling television documentaries. And you know, 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:09.440 when it first happened, when the Rodents were first murdered, 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:11.120 it got a fair amount of intention at the beginning, 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.119 and as we've talked about pretty quickly, the media kind 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.240 of backed off when there weren't arrests, and that was 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.479 kind of all there was to it and in terms 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.360 of our knowledge. And then in June of twenty eighteen, 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:25.920 I read an article by Jeff Winkler, who you've all 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:29.120 heard during this podcast, that he wrote for The Outline, 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:31.959 a long form article about the crime that really he 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:34.200 did such a good job of laying out the story 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:38.600 and what happened and the people involved, and it immediately 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.760 struck a chord with me, just the human element of 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:45.040 it all and how tragic it was. And so reached 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:49.160 out to Jeff Winkler and started the conversation about figuring 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.200 out how we could make this some sort of long 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:52.040 form documentary. 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.840 Yeah, so here's an excerpt of him talking about piped 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:57.200 in and part of what drew us all in. 0:01:57.600 --> 0:01:59.840 So I remember that very specifically. It was a big 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:04.120 media story for about two weeks, and you know, everybody 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.800 from all over came to cover it, all over the world, 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:10.480 and then they left and the murder was still unsolved. 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.160 How did you end up writing because you wrote a 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.040 pretty big piece, What was the tell me about that? 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:18.840 I wrote a piece about a year later. This was, 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:24.080 after all, the sort of fanfare and media attention went away, 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:27.799 and I went to piked In a year later, almost 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.839 to the day, about a year or two the day 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.359 of the killings, and I wanted to see how the 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:39.040 town was doing, both the community and the people who 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.320 were directly involved in it, because at that point there 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:46.560 was still no suspects, no one was really arrested or 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.840 being prosecuted for the crime, and it was the largest 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:54.480 unsolved murder in Ohio's history, and the second largest mass 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.079 murder that year in the United States, after the poll 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:03.120 shooting in Florida. 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.600 We had been tracking this case since it happened, and 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.359 when we first got involved, the Wagners hadn't been arrested 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.320 or weren't even being looked at as suspects by detectives. 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:14.639 So we pitched the idea of this documentary to rod 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:18.680 Asa and Corey Abraham, who are executives at NBC Universal's 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:20.120 Oxygen Network, And. 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:22.760 Really the spirit of that was that this huge crime 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:26.880 had occurred to the poor Rodin family and the killer 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.760 was at large and they were still out there. Cut 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.800 to the Wagners get arrested, and our executives at Oxygen 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.400 call us and put us on a plane to piked In. 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.120 Yeah, I mean, let's talk about we've spent I mean, 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.760 I think between the three of us weeks in piked 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.560 In over the course of many trips, and yeah, you 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:46.080 guys spent more time there than I did. So I'd 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:47.440 be curious what your take on it is. 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:50.000 My first time was when we were going to do 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:54.560 the doc and I flew by myself, I think on 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:58.040 Thanksgiving and met Jeff Winkler, who of course wrote this 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:00.840 important article. Who we were you know, just talking to 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:01.960 and brainstorming with. 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:04.680 You know, Initially, this trip, Stephanie that you're talking about 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.160 was literally nine days after the arrests. You know, they 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.080 the Wagoners were arrested on November thirteenth, twenty eighteen. She's 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.800 on a plane on November twenty second, and so it 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.680 was really soon after that the team was there, and 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.200 I mean the town was I think a form of 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:21.440 shell shock at that point. 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:23.480 I think the mood in the town was really palpable. 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.640 There was something very big about what was happening around us. 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:30.600 You know, we've said this before. It is a very 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.839 small town, two thousand people. So to have eight people 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:37.560 murdered out of those two thousand, every single person in 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.600 the town is affected to some degree or knows somebody 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.520 six degrees of separation who was either on the Wagner 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.120 side or on the road And side. So everyone was 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:52.200 very affected and asking questions about this huge crime at 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:56.160 that time, you know, can can be hard because it's 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:59.479 a sensitive topic. And it seems as though the town 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:01.920 of piked And specifically and many of the family members 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:06.039 of victims or on the Wagner side that in previous 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.920 incarnations had been treated very poorly by the press, so 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:10.600 we wanted to be very sensitive about that. 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:11.320 Yeah. 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:13.800 Another thing Jeff Winkler talked to us about was his 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:15.120 visit in twenty seventeen. 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:17.599 I think this thing that stood up for me when 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:21.400 I went to visit was just how human everyone was. 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.760 And I know that sounds a little trite, but I 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.760 mean I grew up in the Ozarks in Arkansas, so 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.080 coming up from the Ozarks and then spend time in 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:33.800 Texas and Tennessee, this is where I think the stories 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.039 are and the coverage needs to be done more. And 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.680 you know, when the initial coverage happened, you know, it 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:44.480 was just these sort of footage and quotes from sad 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.359 sort of backwoods people is how they're perceived. But everyone 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:53.400 there is full of faith and humor and you know, real, 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:58.320 real sort of American mentality. People I met there who 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.200 had family members had a sort of a grim humor 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:04.159 about things. So it was a way of coping. And 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.960 people found faith in the local church. And you find 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:11.159 these sort of avenues that people from anywhere find to 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.000 grieve and to sort of move on. And that was 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:16.040 I think that was the biggest thing when I went there. 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:21.000 Jeff Wick learned it becoming the greatest. 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.800 We popped in a car and drove I don't know, 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.720 probably fifteen hours a day door to door to various 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:31.840 people's homes between Kentucky and Ohio. You know, Jeff Winkler, 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:34.760 he knew this area. He'd been to piked in many 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:38.400 times prior, so he had already been there and had 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:39.200 the lay of the land. 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:40.719 I hadn't. 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.440 And you know, we've been tracking this case from far 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:47.479 far away. It's articles, it's newspapers, it's news clippings. You know, 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.400 you develop this relationship with the victims and the victims' 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:55.360 families and now the accused simply by staring at their 0:06:55.360 --> 0:07:01.320 photos excessively and obsessively, so for me getting there. It 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.599 was fascinating, even just getting off the plane and renting 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:06.400 a car to drive to piked In and seeing the 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.400 water tower as I had seen in so many photos, 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:12.320 and wanting to kind of understand better where the high 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:16.640 school was, and you know, where everybody lived, and I 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.720 just remember being emotional, and it's hard. You know, we 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:22.960 make prime shows for a living, but then sometimes when 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:26.120 you're submerged in the place and you know what the 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.760 grief is that everybody is experiencing on the victim side 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:33.880 and on the accused side, it's a town ripped apart. 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:36.560 And to Jeff's point, there's not a single person at 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:38.520 the gas station or at the Walmart or at the 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:43.680 you know, local restaurant that isn't either a thought, you know, 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:46.040 isn't talking about it or thinking about it. 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.480 To your point about showing up and just knocking on doors. 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.480 As TV producers were used to being able to call 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:55.400 people and book some of these shows over the phone, 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:57.400 piked In, I think is a little bit of an outlier. 0:07:57.840 --> 0:07:59.400 You know, there's not a lot of cell service there. 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.720 People live in the hills and it's hard to get 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:05.120 someone on the phone, and so really the only way 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:07.040 to do it was to show up, knock on the door, 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:09.680 you know, with a smat hell and a box of 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.800 cookies or a pie, and just hope that people would 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:15.640 a answer the door and be let us in, which 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.280 luckily the town of piked In was really, for the 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.680 most part, very kind and receptive to us as complete 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:22.880 outsiders being there. 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.680 Yeah, the first place I went was Rita Newcome's home 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:30.600 and knocked on her door, and she was lovely. 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:33.160 Invited me right in. 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:35.440 You know, she was in fact wearing an ankle bracelet 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:37.760 because she had recently been released, and to be truthful, 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.880 at the moment, I didn't realize how embedded she potentially 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:43.920 was in this investigation. 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:48.880 The first morning I was there was the arraignment of 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:54.439 Jake Wagner, and it was an interesting experience. The courtroom 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.439 was packed and completely silent. It was delayed by almost 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:00.600 forty minutes. It was supposed to be not a start, 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:03.559 and I've never sat in a more silent room filled 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:10.040 with people, and it was a very interesting experience seeing 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:15.040 Jake walk in and hearing his plea and sitting near 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:17.400 members of the Rodent family. 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:19.520 Were people on both sides, where people on his side 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.280 were people on the road and side, Like, what was 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:23.400 your experience like. 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.880 Yeah, people were definitely on both sides, and the Rodents 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:34.080 was absolutely filled and the Wagner side was much more 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:35.040 sparsely filled. 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:37.520 Do you think that speaks to what we've been hearing 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:39.560 and what we've been trying to convey with this podcast, 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:42.000 which is that the road and family was so incredibly 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.160 close and as we were told, family over everything. 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:45.800 Yeah. 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:50.040 Absolutely, and just the devastation that ripped through that family 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.680 is a little hard to comprehend. So people were definitely there. 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:59.320 People were definitely very sad. It was very tragic, and 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:01.480 but they were there showing their support. 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:05.040 I remember when Courtney was at that arrangement, like calling 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.199 you just to see what was it like. You know, again, 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.200 we have these visions in our head based solely on 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:14.440 photographs of the Wagner family, Jake Wagner being the youngest, 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:16.800 just to kind of be able to see him face 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.560 to face air quotes, or at least kind of look 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:22.360 in his eyes to see, you know, does that look 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.440 like a person who could actually commit something so heinous? 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:27.840 And the truth is it's really an unanswerable question. 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.520 A lot of people understandably, a lot of listeners have 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.720 asked about where the children are now. 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:42.640 Kylie, who is Hannah Rodin's newborn baby, is with her father, 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:43.640 Charlie Gilly. 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:46.000 She was the infant that was just born five days 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.520 prior to Hannah Rodin. I would say for all of 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.080 us too, and this probably would apply to listeners. To 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.840 the fact that there were such small infants and young 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.360 children left alive at the scene just kind of puts 0:10:57.360 --> 0:10:58.440 a dagger in your heart. 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:03.080 So unfortunate. Sophia Wagner, who is the child of Jake 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.400 Wagner and Hannah Rodin, is in the care of Child 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.760 Protective Services, and that's something I know the Rodent family 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.160 is unhappy about, and I know specifically in the Wagner 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:17.600 side of it, Deray is unhappy about. I think the 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:20.400 feeling is that there are people who are blood related 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:22.199 to Sofia who could give her a really good home 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.079 right now. So here's a little bit from Deray about that. 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.000 So you were actually hoping to like take Sophia in 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.240 and give her, you know, a safe and comfortable home 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:31.320 while all this is happening. 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:35.280 Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm a I'm a professional. I 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:40.199 mean I take in children with trauma that's my profession, 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.360 that's what I like to do. I have two boys 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:50.240 with me now who have autism. They're excellent children, they 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.880 are well loved, their proof in the pudding, and we 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:56.599 would have had a really good time. 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.600 So they couldn't even like you couldn't even see Sophia 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:00.400 if you wanted to not. 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.120 All I want her to know is she's loved. I 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:04.640 don't want her to think anything's wrong. 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.080 So something yeah, that we've been asked about by a 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:16.679 fair amount of listeners was how the podcast has affected 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.680 the people that we interviewed and the people that have 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.320 spoken out about it. And I think for the most part, 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.680 it's been pretty positive in terms of who we've talked 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.200 to in their experience in piked It Living in piked In, 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.040 Barb for example, told us that she felt like the 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.760 podcast represented the town well and the story in a 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:39.040 fair way. Angie Montgomery, who we talked about her cousin 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:42.680 Curtis and Jenny's case, felt happy that we were finally 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.120 sheding a light on something that people haven't really been 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:45.800 talking about. 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:47.960 That was a really important piece of this for us, 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.720 because we care deeply about piked In first and foremost. 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:52.240 We've been there many many times. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.040 The town has been extremely kind to us at a 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.120 time that not everyone has been that kind to them, 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.920 and making sure that we weren't coming across in any 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.040 universe as being insensitive to the victims and the victims' families, 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:10.720 understanding that there's a gag order, understanding that anything somebody 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:16.200 says could have impacts on upcoming trials. It's important. The 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.400 stakes are actually extremely high, and we're wildly aware of that, 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.720 but it's hard not to be emotional about it or 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:25.360 to get emotionally attached to an answer or want to 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.319 really understand who the boogeyman is, who's responsible for something 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:29.439 so horrible. 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:29.880 And. 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.960 As a result, I think every time we get involved 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.840 deeper into this case, we want to know more. Is 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.800 it possible that, hopefully the mom isn't involved, This couldn't 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.319 be if Angela Wagner was at the center of it. 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:45.200 Is it because she was being forced to be so 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.000 by her husband or is that just a lie? Or 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:52.800 was Angela wildly manipulative and coerced her boys in the 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:57.840 spirit of defending her family and defending her Sophia. And 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.400 if that's the case, what a silly plan? Because now 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:02.199 you're never going to see your boys again. You've all 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.760 been separated. If convicted, you'll never cross paths unless one 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:07.880 of you folds on the other in court. 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.120 And with four people, you know, if indeed they are 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.439 deemed guilty, there's the question that we raised a few 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:19.840 episodes ago about the informant and who that is. There 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.280 is an informant who's been written about, and if it 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.400 is one of the four, you know, if they've turned 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:27.800 on the rest of their family, how that would bear out, 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.360 because it would be hard for to manage that guilt 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:38.440 for years and years. Let's stop here for a quick 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:39.200 commercial break. 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:40.240 We'll be back in a moment. 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:55.120 So just over four years four people, in my opinion, 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.720 packed mentality would suggest that at some point the night 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:00.760 of the murders, if they've Wagner did in fact do it, 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:02.560 that there was a heavy there was somebody who was 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:06.120 the real leader, right, and that the real leader reminds 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:07.880 everybody this is why we have to do this. We're 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.120 protecting our own or we're protecting our family, or we're 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:15.040 protecting Sophia, and to some degree everybody follows along. Again, 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.840 at four different times, somebody could have changed their vote. 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.520 Who knows what the circumstances of were that night. Although 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:27.320 we're desperate to now add four years, four years separated, 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.280 there's zero chance at all four of them will stick 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.080 to the exact same story, not have the exact same 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.080 amount of guilt, like somebody's going to crack. If that's 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:39.600 the informant, it makes a ton of sense. And if 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.520 that's the informant who is either trying to spare themselves 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:48.840 or spare their family somehow, that to me would make 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:51.640 a lot of sense. The fact that George Wagner is 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:56.800 requesting a Bible and requesting solitary confinement for lengthy periods 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:58.560 of time, to me, has always been a bit of 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.520 a tell you know, Jake, Yes you're caught up. If 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:04.120 in fact this is true, that you need to have 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.960 custody of your child and your heartbroken and the love 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.200 of your life is dating somebody else and just had 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.320 a baby with somebody else, and it's filled with passion, 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.120 it's a passion kill. We made crime shows for a living. 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:20.680 Oftentimes it's love or money or revenge. Defending your family. 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:22.640 This checks all of those boxes. 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:24.200 But that was then. 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.360 Now add four years, realizing you're not around your daughter 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:31.000 any longer you've committed mass murder from which you can 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.600 never go back. Somebody has to crack, is my point. 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.760 Just as a legal reminder, Angela, Billy Jake, and George 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.960 Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's mother Rita 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.400 Joe Nucomb and Billy Wagner's mother Frederica were both charged 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:53.080 with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucom was also charged 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.120 with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty, and 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.440 our justice system presumes innocence until guilt is proven. 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.120 Can we talk about one thing that has always I'm 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.000 going to speak for all of us, but is the 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.320 thing in my head that I can never get out 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.040 of it? In terms of whether or not we believe, 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.480 which frankly matters for nothing if the Wagoners are in 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:15.040 fact guilty or. 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:16.800 Not, it's the hacking. 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.920 Why were they hacking the Rodent family for as long 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.840 as they were And according to the official documents that 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.879 we have seen, it has been reported about also that 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.679 in fact they were busting into all of their social 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.160 media Why in such a mass in such a big 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:36.359 way too, It's not as though it was. It doesn't 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.119 appear to be Trump in if I'm incorrect, it doesn't 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:43.880 appear that, say, for example, Jake was hacking Hannah Roden's 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:48.000 Facebook because he was wildly jealous about her new relationship, 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.560 or that she had moved on in a new relationship. 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:55.320 That is terrible to do under any circumstance. But that 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.840 seems like a young person's effort. 0:17:58.640 --> 0:17:59.959 But it doesn't seem like that was they came. 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:04.280 It was a fairly high level surveillance operation happening to 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:04.920 all of them. 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.080 And why what has been brought up in court is 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.360 that it was deeply organized. I mean, there were Excel 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:18.320 spreadsheets done, hundreds and hundreds of entries about child custody. 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.280 They put up cameras, and they were in all of 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:24.600 their computers and phones. 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:26.080 It was really elaborate. 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.719 It was elaborate, and the wagoners were often together. So 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:33.240 was this an activity just because they wanted to track 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.160 Hannah's relationship or like, where were they tracking? 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:36.720 You know? 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.560 What makes the most sense on the surface, and again allegedly, 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:42.239 is that they were tracking the coming and goings and 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:48.240 tracking the property and understanding the dogs. It did seem 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:53.040 as though big dogs were common and we know for 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.840 a fact that the Rodents had attack dogs. Why didn't 0:18:55.840 --> 0:19:01.280 the dogs attack? That really does make no sense. However, 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:03.960 if you knew the dogs and you had been to 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.360 the home many times, as certainly Jake would have been 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:10.040 many times, and you had an understanding of kind of 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.520 how that home worked and what their habits were, it 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.080 does feel like an indicate that the Wagners were up 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:20.080 to no good if they were legitimately cyber stalking an 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:24.399 entire family just months prior to that family's tragic death. 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:32.080 Clinton from Ganado, Texas asked us why Sophia wasn't with 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.800 her mom the night of the murders and was it 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.600 under unusual circumstances that she was picked up by Jake 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.040 Wagner And yeah, it's up for debate why Sophia wasn't 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.720 with Hannah. Jake Wagner has admitted that he did pick 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.400 Sophia up a day earlier than he originally planned, and 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.719 that so she wasn't with her mom that fatful Friday evening. 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:54.480 Jake Wagner said on the record, I reckon we missed 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.040 it by just a few hours, and by it he 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.359 means the murders, and so we don't know what happened 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:02.159 between Jake Wagner and Hannah Rode in the night of 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:04.000 the murders, or why he told her he was picking 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:05.800 her up early, or why he did pick her up early. 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:07.920 But we do know she was supposed to be with 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.359 her mom that night, and for reasons we don't know, 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:12.359 Jake Wagner did take her home early. 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:15.400 And my expectation would be if we have texts exchanges, 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:17.399 just based on the fact that we know that people 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.600 text so frequently because the reception between phones can be 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:23.640 spotty in these rural places, there has to be some 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:25.639 sort of a message saying I will pick her up 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:28.239 early or requesting to pick her up early. I think 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.720 that is another huge smoking gun, the fact that Sophia 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.200 wasn't there that day and was picked up by Jake 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.000 off of schedule. He's changed his story on this a 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:38.640 couple of times, and I think this was a key 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:44.160 place where there was an inconsistency about this topic. But regardless, 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:45.800 it is suspicious. 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.160 And we disagree on that. I think things happen, and 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:52.680 what seems the simplest explanation to me is that Hannah 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:55.639 Roadin had just had a baby days before, and maybe 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.679 she wanted to break with just her infant and not 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.000 a toddler, but something we don't know. 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.639 Jay from Storm like Iowa asked us what happens if 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:11.440 the Wagners get off? Will they get custody of Sophia? 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:15.200 I can only imagine that if the Wagners do get off, 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:17.440 they will attempt to get back to their normal life, 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:20.480