Speaker 1: Welcome to the piked In Massacre Episode nine. We're going
Speaker 1: to do something a little bit different for this episode
Speaker 1: and go into the process of producing the podcast and
Speaker 1: also answer some questions we've been getting over social media.
Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong. I work at Kat's Studios with Stephanie
Speaker 1: Leidecker and Jeff Shane.
Speaker 2: We're finally together again, distance but together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because of COVID we've all been recording separately, but
Speaker 1: we're actually in the same socially distant space today for
Speaker 1: the first time in many months.
Speaker 3: And we are sitting outside to keep safe.
Speaker 1: One of the things a bunch of people have asked
Speaker 1: about is how we came upon this case, And Jeff,
Speaker 1: do you want to speak to that, because you really
Speaker 1: were the impetus for it.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: At KAT Studios, we do a lot of true crime programming,
Speaker 3: and so we're always kind of on the lookout for
Speaker 3: interesting cases that are like aired and complex that could
Speaker 3: make for you know, compelling television documentaries. And you know,
Speaker 3: when it first happened, when the Rodents were first murdered,
Speaker 3: it got a fair amount of intention at the beginning,
Speaker 3: and as we've talked about pretty quickly, the media kind
Speaker 3: of backed off when there weren't arrests, and that was
Speaker 3: kind of all there was to it and in terms
Speaker 3: of our knowledge. And then in June of twenty eighteen,
Speaker 3: I read an article by Jeff Winkler, who you've all
Speaker 3: heard during this podcast, that he wrote for The Outline,
Speaker 3: a long form article about the crime that really he
Speaker 3: did such a good job of laying out the story
Speaker 3: and what happened and the people involved, and it immediately
Speaker 3: struck a chord with me, just the human element of
Speaker 3: it all and how tragic it was. And so reached
Speaker 3: out to Jeff Winkler and started the conversation about figuring
Speaker 3: out how we could make this some sort of long
Speaker 3: form documentary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so here's an excerpt of him talking about piped
Speaker 1: in and part of what drew us all in.
Speaker 5: So I remember that very specifically. It was a big
Speaker 5: media story for about two weeks, and you know, everybody
Speaker 5: from all over came to cover it, all over the world,
Speaker 5: and then they left and the murder was still unsolved.
Speaker 1: How did you end up writing because you wrote a
Speaker 1: pretty big piece, What was the tell me about that?
Speaker 5: I wrote a piece about a year later. This was,
Speaker 5: after all, the sort of fanfare and media attention went away,
Speaker 5: and I went to piked In a year later, almost
Speaker 5: to the day, about a year or two the day
Speaker 5: of the killings, and I wanted to see how the
Speaker 5: town was doing, both the community and the people who
Speaker 5: were directly involved in it, because at that point there
Speaker 5: was still no suspects, no one was really arrested or
Speaker 5: being prosecuted for the crime, and it was the largest
Speaker 5: unsolved murder in Ohio's history, and the second largest mass
Speaker 5: murder that year in the United States, after the poll
Speaker 5: shooting in Florida.
Speaker 3: We had been tracking this case since it happened, and
Speaker 3: when we first got involved, the Wagners hadn't been arrested
Speaker 3: or weren't even being looked at as suspects by detectives.
Speaker 3: So we pitched the idea of this documentary to rod
Speaker 3: Asa and Corey Abraham, who are executives at NBC Universal's
Speaker 3: Oxygen Network, And.
Speaker 2: Really the spirit of that was that this huge crime
Speaker 2: had occurred to the poor Rodin family and the killer
Speaker 2: was at large and they were still out there. Cut
Speaker 2: to the Wagners get arrested, and our executives at Oxygen
Speaker 2: call us and put us on a plane to piked In.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, let's talk about we've spent I mean,
Speaker 3: I think between the three of us weeks in piked
Speaker 3: In over the course of many trips, and yeah, you
Speaker 3: guys spent more time there than I did. So I'd
Speaker 3: be curious what your take on it is.
Speaker 2: My first time was when we were going to do
Speaker 2: the doc and I flew by myself, I think on
Speaker 2: Thanksgiving and met Jeff Winkler, who of course wrote this
Speaker 2: important article. Who we were you know, just talking to
Speaker 2: and brainstorming with.
Speaker 3: You know, Initially, this trip, Stephanie that you're talking about
Speaker 3: was literally nine days after the arrests. You know, they
Speaker 3: the Wagoners were arrested on November thirteenth, twenty eighteen. She's
Speaker 3: on a plane on November twenty second, and so it
Speaker 3: was really soon after that the team was there, and
Speaker 3: I mean the town was I think a form of
Speaker 3: shell shock at that point.
Speaker 2: I think the mood in the town was really palpable.
Speaker 2: There was something very big about what was happening around us.
Speaker 2: You know, we've said this before. It is a very
Speaker 2: small town, two thousand people. So to have eight people
Speaker 2: murdered out of those two thousand, every single person in
Speaker 2: the town is affected to some degree or knows somebody
Speaker 2: six degrees of separation who was either on the Wagner
Speaker 2: side or on the road And side. So everyone was
Speaker 2: very affected and asking questions about this huge crime at
Speaker 2: that time, you know, can can be hard because it's
Speaker 2: a sensitive topic. And it seems as though the town
Speaker 2: of piked And specifically and many of the family members
Speaker 2: of victims or on the Wagner side that in previous
Speaker 2: incarnations had been treated very poorly by the press, so
Speaker 2: we wanted to be very sensitive about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Another thing Jeff Winkler talked to us about was his
Speaker 1: visit in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 5: I think this thing that stood up for me when
Speaker 5: I went to visit was just how human everyone was.
Speaker 5: And I know that sounds a little trite, but I
Speaker 5: mean I grew up in the Ozarks in Arkansas, so
Speaker 5: coming up from the Ozarks and then spend time in
Speaker 5: Texas and Tennessee, this is where I think the stories
Speaker 5: are and the coverage needs to be done more. And
Speaker 5: you know, when the initial coverage happened, you know, it
Speaker 5: was just these sort of footage and quotes from sad
Speaker 5: sort of backwoods people is how they're perceived. But everyone
Speaker 5: there is full of faith and humor and you know, real,
Speaker 5: real sort of American mentality. People I met there who
Speaker 5: had family members had a sort of a grim humor
Speaker 5: about things. So it was a way of coping. And
Speaker 5: people found faith in the local church. And you find
Speaker 5: these sort of avenues that people from anywhere find to
Speaker 5: grieve and to sort of move on. And that was
Speaker 5: I think that was the biggest thing when I went there.
Speaker 6: Jeff Wick learned it becoming the greatest.
Speaker 2: We popped in a car and drove I don't know,
Speaker 2: probably fifteen hours a day door to door to various
Speaker 2: people's homes between Kentucky and Ohio. You know, Jeff Winkler,
Speaker 2: he knew this area. He'd been to piked in many
Speaker 2: times prior, so he had already been there and had
Speaker 2: the lay of the land.
Speaker 6: I hadn't.
Speaker 2: And you know, we've been tracking this case from far
Speaker 2: far away. It's articles, it's newspapers, it's news clippings. You know,
Speaker 2: you develop this relationship with the victims and the victims'
Speaker 2: families and now the accused simply by staring at their
Speaker 2: photos excessively and obsessively, so for me getting there. It
Speaker 2: was fascinating, even just getting off the plane and renting
Speaker 2: a car to drive to piked In and seeing the
Speaker 2: water tower as I had seen in so many photos,
Speaker 2: and wanting to kind of understand better where the high
Speaker 2: school was, and you know, where everybody lived, and I
Speaker 2: just remember being emotional, and it's hard. You know, we
Speaker 2: make prime shows for a living, but then sometimes when
Speaker 2: you're submerged in the place and you know what the
Speaker 2: grief is that everybody is experiencing on the victim side
Speaker 2: and on the accused side, it's a town ripped apart.
Speaker 2: And to Jeff's point, there's not a single person at
Speaker 2: the gas station or at the Walmart or at the
Speaker 2: you know, local restaurant that isn't either a thought, you know,
Speaker 2: isn't talking about it or thinking about it.
Speaker 3: To your point about showing up and just knocking on doors.
Speaker 3: As TV producers were used to being able to call
Speaker 3: people and book some of these shows over the phone,
Speaker 3: piked In, I think is a little bit of an outlier.
Speaker 3: You know, there's not a lot of cell service there.
Speaker 3: People live in the hills and it's hard to get
Speaker 3: someone on the phone, and so really the only way
Speaker 3: to do it was to show up, knock on the door,
Speaker 3: you know, with a smat hell and a box of
Speaker 3: cookies or a pie, and just hope that people would
Speaker 3: a answer the door and be let us in, which
Speaker 3: luckily the town of piked In was really, for the
Speaker 3: most part, very kind and receptive to us as complete
Speaker 3: outsiders being there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the first place I went was Rita Newcome's home
Speaker 2: and knocked on her door, and she was lovely.
Speaker 6: Invited me right in.
Speaker 2: You know, she was in fact wearing an ankle bracelet
Speaker 2: because she had recently been released, and to be truthful,
Speaker 2: at the moment, I didn't realize how embedded she potentially
Speaker 2: was in this investigation.
Speaker 1: The first morning I was there was the arraignment of
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner, and it was an interesting experience. The courtroom
Speaker 1: was packed and completely silent. It was delayed by almost
Speaker 1: forty minutes. It was supposed to be not a start,
Speaker 1: and I've never sat in a more silent room filled
Speaker 1: with people, and it was a very interesting experience seeing
Speaker 1: Jake walk in and hearing his plea and sitting near
Speaker 1: members of the Rodent family.
Speaker 3: Were people on both sides, where people on his side
Speaker 3: were people on the road and side, Like, what was
Speaker 3: your experience like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people were definitely on both sides, and the Rodents
Speaker 1: was absolutely filled and the Wagner side was much more
Speaker 1: sparsely filled.
Speaker 3: Do you think that speaks to what we've been hearing
Speaker 3: and what we've been trying to convey with this podcast,
Speaker 3: which is that the road and family was so incredibly
Speaker 3: close and as we were told, family over everything.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and just the devastation that ripped through that family
Speaker 1: is a little hard to comprehend. So people were definitely there.
Speaker 1: People were definitely very sad. It was very tragic, and
Speaker 1: but they were there showing their support.
Speaker 2: I remember when Courtney was at that arrangement, like calling
Speaker 2: you just to see what was it like. You know, again,
Speaker 2: we have these visions in our head based solely on
Speaker 2: photographs of the Wagner family, Jake Wagner being the youngest,
Speaker 2: just to kind of be able to see him face
Speaker 2: to face air quotes, or at least kind of look
Speaker 2: in his eyes to see, you know, does that look
Speaker 2: like a person who could actually commit something so heinous?
Speaker 2: And the truth is it's really an unanswerable question.
Speaker 1: A lot of people understandably, a lot of listeners have
Speaker 1: asked about where the children are now.
Speaker 3: Kylie, who is Hannah Rodin's newborn baby, is with her father,
Speaker 3: Charlie Gilly.
Speaker 2: She was the infant that was just born five days
Speaker 2: prior to Hannah Rodin. I would say for all of
Speaker 2: us too, and this probably would apply to listeners. To
Speaker 2: the fact that there were such small infants and young
Speaker 2: children left alive at the scene just kind of puts
Speaker 2: a dagger in your heart.
Speaker 3: So unfortunate. Sophia Wagner, who is the child of Jake
Speaker 3: Wagner and Hannah Rodin, is in the care of Child
Speaker 3: Protective Services, and that's something I know the Rodent family
Speaker 3: is unhappy about, and I know specifically in the Wagner
Speaker 3: side of it, Deray is unhappy about. I think the
Speaker 3: feeling is that there are people who are blood related
Speaker 3: to Sofia who could give her a really good home
Speaker 3: right now. So here's a little bit from Deray about that.
Speaker 3: So you were actually hoping to like take Sophia in
Speaker 3: and give her, you know, a safe and comfortable home
Speaker 3: while all this is happening.
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm a I'm a professional. I
Speaker 7: mean I take in children with trauma that's my profession,
Speaker 7: that's what I like to do. I have two boys
Speaker 7: with me now who have autism. They're excellent children, they
Speaker 7: are well loved, their proof in the pudding, and we
Speaker 7: would have had a really good time.
Speaker 3: So they couldn't even like you couldn't even see Sophia
Speaker 3: if you wanted to not.
Speaker 7: All I want her to know is she's loved. I
Speaker 7: don't want her to think anything's wrong.
Speaker 3: So something yeah, that we've been asked about by a
Speaker 3: fair amount of listeners was how the podcast has affected
Speaker 3: the people that we interviewed and the people that have
Speaker 3: spoken out about it. And I think for the most part,
Speaker 3: it's been pretty positive in terms of who we've talked
Speaker 3: to in their experience in piked It Living in piked In,
Speaker 3: Barb for example, told us that she felt like the
Speaker 3: podcast represented the town well and the story in a
Speaker 3: fair way. Angie Montgomery, who we talked about her cousin
Speaker 3: Curtis and Jenny's case, felt happy that we were finally
Speaker 3: sheding a light on something that people haven't really been
Speaker 3: talking about.
Speaker 2: That was a really important piece of this for us,
Speaker 2: because we care deeply about piked In first and foremost.
Speaker 6: We've been there many many times.
Speaker 2: The town has been extremely kind to us at a
Speaker 2: time that not everyone has been that kind to them,
Speaker 2: and making sure that we weren't coming across in any
Speaker 2: universe as being insensitive to the victims and the victims' families,
Speaker 2: understanding that there's a gag order, understanding that anything somebody
Speaker 2: says could have impacts on upcoming trials. It's important. The
Speaker 2: stakes are actually extremely high, and we're wildly aware of that,
Speaker 2: but it's hard not to be emotional about it or
Speaker 2: to get emotionally attached to an answer or want to
Speaker 2: really understand who the boogeyman is, who's responsible for something
Speaker 2: so horrible.
Speaker 7: And.
Speaker 2: As a result, I think every time we get involved
Speaker 2: deeper into this case, we want to know more. Is
Speaker 2: it possible that, hopefully the mom isn't involved, This couldn't
Speaker 2: be if Angela Wagner was at the center of it.
Speaker 2: Is it because she was being forced to be so
Speaker 2: by her husband or is that just a lie? Or
Speaker 2: was Angela wildly manipulative and coerced her boys in the
Speaker 2: spirit of defending her family and defending her Sophia. And
Speaker 2: if that's the case, what a silly plan? Because now
Speaker 2: you're never going to see your boys again. You've all
Speaker 2: been separated. If convicted, you'll never cross paths unless one
Speaker 2: of you folds on the other in court.
Speaker 1: And with four people, you know, if indeed they are
Speaker 1: deemed guilty, there's the question that we raised a few
Speaker 1: episodes ago about the informant and who that is. There
Speaker 1: is an informant who's been written about, and if it
Speaker 1: is one of the four, you know, if they've turned
Speaker 1: on the rest of their family, how that would bear out,
Speaker 1: because it would be hard for to manage that guilt
Speaker 1: for years and years. Let's stop here for a quick
Speaker 1: commercial break.
Speaker 6: We'll be back in a moment.
Speaker 2: So just over four years four people, in my opinion,
Speaker 2: packed mentality would suggest that at some point the night
Speaker 2: of the murders, if they've Wagner did in fact do it,
Speaker 2: that there was a heavy there was somebody who was
Speaker 2: the real leader, right, and that the real leader reminds
Speaker 2: everybody this is why we have to do this. We're
Speaker 2: protecting our own or we're protecting our family, or we're
Speaker 2: protecting Sophia, and to some degree everybody follows along. Again,
Speaker 2: at four different times, somebody could have changed their vote.
Speaker 2: Who knows what the circumstances of were that night. Although
Speaker 2: we're desperate to now add four years, four years separated,
Speaker 2: there's zero chance at all four of them will stick
Speaker 2: to the exact same story, not have the exact same
Speaker 2: amount of guilt, like somebody's going to crack. If that's
Speaker 2: the informant, it makes a ton of sense. And if
Speaker 2: that's the informant who is either trying to spare themselves
Speaker 2: or spare their family somehow, that to me would make
Speaker 2: a lot of sense. The fact that George Wagner is
Speaker 2: requesting a Bible and requesting solitary confinement for lengthy periods
Speaker 2: of time, to me, has always been a bit of
Speaker 2: a tell you know, Jake, Yes you're caught up. If
Speaker 2: in fact this is true, that you need to have
Speaker 2: custody of your child and your heartbroken and the love
Speaker 2: of your life is dating somebody else and just had
Speaker 2: a baby with somebody else, and it's filled with passion,
Speaker 2: it's a passion kill. We made crime shows for a living.
Speaker 2: Oftentimes it's love or money or revenge. Defending your family.
Speaker 2: This checks all of those boxes.
Speaker 6: But that was then.
Speaker 2: Now add four years, realizing you're not around your daughter
Speaker 2: any longer you've committed mass murder from which you can
Speaker 2: never go back. Somebody has to crack, is my point.
Speaker 1: Just as a legal reminder, Angela, Billy Jake, and George
Speaker 1: Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's mother Rita
Speaker 1: Joe Nucomb and Billy Wagner's mother Frederica were both charged
Speaker 1: with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucom was also charged
Speaker 1: with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty, and
Speaker 1: our justice system presumes innocence until guilt is proven.
Speaker 2: Can we talk about one thing that has always I'm
Speaker 2: going to speak for all of us, but is the
Speaker 2: thing in my head that I can never get out
Speaker 2: of it? In terms of whether or not we believe,
Speaker 2: which frankly matters for nothing if the Wagoners are in
Speaker 2: fact guilty or.
Speaker 6: Not, it's the hacking.
Speaker 2: Why were they hacking the Rodent family for as long
Speaker 2: as they were And according to the official documents that
Speaker 2: we have seen, it has been reported about also that
Speaker 2: in fact they were busting into all of their social
Speaker 2: media Why in such a mass in such a big
Speaker 2: way too, It's not as though it was. It doesn't
Speaker 2: appear to be Trump in if I'm incorrect, it doesn't
Speaker 2: appear that, say, for example, Jake was hacking Hannah Roden's
Speaker 2: Facebook because he was wildly jealous about her new relationship,
Speaker 2: or that she had moved on in a new relationship.
Speaker 2: That is terrible to do under any circumstance. But that
Speaker 2: seems like a young person's effort.
Speaker 6: But it doesn't seem like that was they came.
Speaker 2: It was a fairly high level surveillance operation happening to
Speaker 2: all of them.
Speaker 1: And why what has been brought up in court is
Speaker 1: that it was deeply organized. I mean, there were Excel
Speaker 1: spreadsheets done, hundreds and hundreds of entries about child custody.
Speaker 1: They put up cameras, and they were in all of
Speaker 1: their computers and phones.
Speaker 6: It was really elaborate.
Speaker 2: It was elaborate, and the wagoners were often together. So
Speaker 2: was this an activity just because they wanted to track
Speaker 2: Hannah's relationship or like, where were they tracking?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 2: What makes the most sense on the surface, and again allegedly,
Speaker 2: is that they were tracking the coming and goings and
Speaker 2: tracking the property and understanding the dogs. It did seem
Speaker 2: as though big dogs were common and we know for
Speaker 2: a fact that the Rodents had attack dogs. Why didn't
Speaker 2: the dogs attack? That really does make no sense. However,
Speaker 2: if you knew the dogs and you had been to
Speaker 2: the home many times, as certainly Jake would have been
Speaker 2: many times, and you had an understanding of kind of
Speaker 2: how that home worked and what their habits were, it
Speaker 2: does feel like an indicate that the Wagners were up
Speaker 2: to no good if they were legitimately cyber stalking an
Speaker 2: entire family just months prior to that family's tragic death.
Speaker 3: Clinton from Ganado, Texas asked us why Sophia wasn't with
Speaker 3: her mom the night of the murders and was it
Speaker 3: under unusual circumstances that she was picked up by Jake
Speaker 3: Wagner And yeah, it's up for debate why Sophia wasn't
Speaker 3: with Hannah. Jake Wagner has admitted that he did pick
Speaker 3: Sophia up a day earlier than he originally planned, and
Speaker 3: that so she wasn't with her mom that fatful Friday evening.
Speaker 3: Jake Wagner said on the record, I reckon we missed
Speaker 3: it by just a few hours, and by it he
Speaker 3: means the murders, and so we don't know what happened
Speaker 3: between Jake Wagner and Hannah Rode in the night of
Speaker 3: the murders, or why he told her he was picking
Speaker 3: her up early, or why he did pick her up early.
Speaker 3: But we do know she was supposed to be with
Speaker 3: her mom that night, and for reasons we don't know,
Speaker 3: Jake Wagner did take her home early.
Speaker 2: And my expectation would be if we have texts exchanges,
Speaker 2: just based on the fact that we know that people
Speaker 2: text so frequently because the reception between phones can be
Speaker 2: spotty in these rural places, there has to be some
Speaker 2: sort of a message saying I will pick her up
Speaker 2: early or requesting to pick her up early. I think
Speaker 2: that is another huge smoking gun, the fact that Sophia
Speaker 2: wasn't there that day and was picked up by Jake
Speaker 2: off of schedule. He's changed his story on this a
Speaker 2: couple of times, and I think this was a key
Speaker 2: place where there was an inconsistency about this topic. But regardless,
Speaker 2: it is suspicious.
Speaker 1: And we disagree on that. I think things happen, and
Speaker 1: what seems the simplest explanation to me is that Hannah
Speaker 1: Roadin had just had a baby days before, and maybe
Speaker 1: she wanted to break with just her infant and not
Speaker 1: a toddler, but something we don't know.
Speaker 3: Jay from Storm like Iowa asked us what happens if
Speaker 3: the Wagners get off? Will they get custody of Sophia?
Speaker 3: I can only imagine that if the Wagners do get off,
Speaker 3: they will attempt to get back to their normal life,
Speaker 3: and it's possible they would want custody of Sophia. But
Speaker 3: former prosecutor Mike Allen told me that because they were
Speaker 3: so closely linked to the murders, it may be difficult
Speaker 3: for Jake Wagner to obtain custody, which, if he's innocent,
Speaker 3: is tragic to think that because he was mixed up
Speaker 3: in this he wouldn't be able to get to race
Speaker 3: his daughter. Here's an excerpt of that conversation with Mike Allen.
Speaker 3: So let's say Jake Wagner does get off and has
Speaker 3: proven not guilty. So do you think he doesn't have
Speaker 3: a chance of getting Sophia back?
Speaker 4: Probably has a chance of getting her back, But I
Speaker 4: think a judge would be hard press to grant custody
Speaker 4: for someone who was named as a defendant in a
Speaker 4: multiple homicide case, even if he is acquitted. You just
Speaker 4: don't know, but I'll tell you what, that's not going
Speaker 4: to be decided, I don't think for many years to come.
Speaker 3: Even if he let's say he really didn't do it
Speaker 3: and he's being held, you know, wrongly accused, that he
Speaker 3: never gets to see his daughter again, she never hear
Speaker 3: he dady like that even alone is such a tragedy.
Speaker 4: Well, if there's no evidence or no strong evidence against
Speaker 4: him and he's acquitted and people are scratching their head thinking, well,
Speaker 4: why was he even indicted, I suppose he would have
Speaker 4: a chance then, but you never know, I mean, you
Speaker 4: never know what happens in a criminal trial. The custody
Speaker 4: battle is one that will probably outlive the criminal case.
Speaker 4: That will probably go on for years and years and years.
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously it was a contentious subject before the murders.
Speaker 4: Again many believe that that was the primary motive. But
Speaker 4: that will continue to go on. They'll probably be news
Speaker 4: court hearings for years until that's finally settled. And that's
Speaker 4: a shame because the children, if they're not already hurt,
Speaker 4: which of course they are, they're going to continue to
Speaker 4: be victimized, probably for long a long time to come.
Speaker 3: Susan from New Vienna, Ohio asked us when the trials
Speaker 3: are supposed to begin, and that's an interesting question. Obviously,
Speaker 3: the Wagners did waive their right to a speedy trial,
Speaker 3: but now because of COVID, it seems that the trials
Speaker 3: have been delayed. Billy Wagner's attorney, Mark Collins, said that
Speaker 3: the trials have been put on hold. Angela, Wagner's attorney,
Speaker 3: said something different. He said the trials were supposed to
Speaker 3: begin this fall, which would be very soon, if not imminent.
Speaker 3: So it's unclear about what is exactly is happening, but
Speaker 3: we do know that right now the pre trial hearings
Speaker 3: are happening. George Wagner just had his last week, so
Speaker 3: things are starting to move in the right direction.
Speaker 2: There was an attempt to be made to get him
Speaker 2: released on bond. Seems very different than somebody being held
Speaker 2: in solitary confinement with a Bible waiting for their last days.
Speaker 2: These are death penalty trials, you know, that's not to
Speaker 2: be underestimated. Four separate capital punishment trials are a big deal,
Speaker 2: and one surely affects the other, and any inconsistency from
Speaker 2: one to the next has to be a paramount to
Speaker 2: all I would imagine, you know, I.
Speaker 6: Don't know the answer to that.
Speaker 1: That's a good question because they are four separate trials,
Speaker 1: so I don't know actually if one has bearing on
Speaker 1: the other. I mean, you know, you'd assume the evidence
Speaker 1: some of it will be similar, but it's it's all
Speaker 1: going to be dependent. For example, I remember reading that
Speaker 1: DNA was there is confirmed that the prosecution has DNA evidence.
Speaker 1: What that evidence is, we don't know, but there's been
Speaker 1: made mention of it, so you know, the fact that
Speaker 1: there's differences in DNA is going to change the course
Speaker 1: of those four trials completely.
Speaker 2: I was just suggesting that those four trials, the I guess,
Speaker 2: the narrative from each of the Wagner members family members
Speaker 2: has to be pretty buttoned up.
Speaker 6: If there's one inconsistency between.
Speaker 2: Jake's story and his mom's story or their dad's story,
Speaker 2: that's a big deal.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back
Speaker 1: in a moment.
Speaker 3: Another question we got was from call from Belfast, Ohio,
Speaker 3: who asked us, if something happens and the Wagners are
Speaker 3: found not guilty, how do we think the town would
Speaker 3: react to them being back and piked In, and would
Speaker 3: they be able to stay in the town. It's a
Speaker 3: good question, and based on what we've heard in the
Speaker 3: reaction to the Wagners, I personally think it would be
Speaker 3: really hard for them to stay and piked In. You know,
Speaker 3: we talked to a Wagner family member who wished to
Speaker 3: remain anonymous, who gave us some pretty horrible details about
Speaker 3: what happened to them before the arrests. That being said,
Speaker 3: you know, Frederica does have a lot of land in
Speaker 3: piked In, and they have a lot of ties to
Speaker 3: the community, so they might that might be where they
Speaker 3: would call home.
Speaker 2: Frederica Wagner is also an interesting piece to this puzzle.
Speaker 2: By all accounts, she's the great matriarch of the Wagner Empire,
Speaker 2: and you know, she looks like such a beautiful grandmother,
Speaker 2: like you would conjure up in your head or if
Speaker 2: you were casting a movie, that you wouldn't believe somebody
Speaker 2: could look so perfect.
Speaker 6: She wears this little black lace.
Speaker 2: It's not a veil over her face, it's sort of
Speaker 2: like an overlay, but it's really a look that makes
Speaker 2: you think, oh, she could never be involved, and she's
Speaker 2: so beloved by the town and has done so many
Speaker 2: charitable things. That's a real cross section of opinion.
Speaker 6: So many some.
Speaker 2: People say that she is a pure saint, the kindest,
Speaker 2: the nicest, the most genuine, the most charitable human that
Speaker 2: has ever walked the earth, and others say she's downright wicked.
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, there's two sides to every coin, and
Speaker 1: I think both of what you said bears out. It
Speaker 1: really depends on what your perspective is. If you are
Speaker 1: one of the people who Frederica Wagner has helped along
Speaker 1: the way and provided food and assistance, you are going
Speaker 1: to see the godly woman that so many people speak of.
Speaker 1: And if you are one of the people who were
Speaker 1: renting land that you were supposed to be buying at
Speaker 1: the end of it, and then you allegedly had that
Speaker 1: land pulled out from under you and revert back to Frederica,
Speaker 1: then you're going to feel very, very differently. Both things are.
Speaker 2: True, both things are true. That's I guess what's so
Speaker 2: complicated about this. So you know, discovery continues, and these
Speaker 2: trials I think would be set sooner than later. Is
Speaker 2: I would imagine the hope the defense of the Wagoners
Speaker 2: was trying to move the trial outside of Pikedon because
Speaker 2: getting twelve unbiased jurors might be challenging, and they were
Speaker 2: ultimately denied that privilege. That's kind of a strike against
Speaker 2: the defense. What we have heard from the prosecution is
Speaker 2: that they are accumulating a lot of evidence at this point,
Speaker 2: and much of it we can't get our hands on.
Speaker 2: So they've been pretty tight lipped outside of the silencers,
Speaker 2: the vests, the shoes that were bought at Walmart, DNA
Speaker 2: evidence that's said to be found at one, if not
Speaker 2: multiple crime scenes. But outside of that, they've kept a
Speaker 2: lot of things to themselves, understandably so, and that I
Speaker 2: think we're going to hear about sooner than later, because
Speaker 2: who goes first, I think is very interesting. Who do
Speaker 2: you guys think will be up first?
Speaker 1: You know, I'll go just by the arraignment, and I
Speaker 1: believe I'm correct that Jake Wagner was the first of
Speaker 1: the Wagners to be arraigned, So I would bet Jake.
Speaker 1: And a lot of the thought is that, you know,
Speaker 1: since custody allegedly is at the center, so I say,
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner.
Speaker 2: I was going to say that the eldest son, George
Speaker 2: Wagner would be up first. But wow, what a shocker
Speaker 2: if Jake Wagner is up first, because then, to me,
Speaker 2: there's no question that his involvement with the Rodents is
Speaker 2: at the center of these trials at the bare minimum,
Speaker 2: whether he did or did not do it, that one
Speaker 2: piece would follow all of the trials.
Speaker 6: I would imagine.
Speaker 1: Reach out to us on our social media outlets with questions.
Speaker 1: We're on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at Pike and Massacre.
Speaker 1: We look forward to answering your questions in upcoming episodes.
Speaker 1: Piked In Massacre is executive produced by Stephanie Leidecker and
Speaker 1: me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by executive producer
Speaker 1: Jared Aston. Additional producing by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker.
Speaker 1: The piked In Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 6: And Katie Studios.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.