1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to the piked In Massacre Episode nine. We're going 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: to do something a little bit different for this episode 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: and go into the process of producing the podcast and 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: also answer some questions we've been getting over social media. 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong. I work at Kat's Studios with Stephanie 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: Leidecker and Jeff Shane. 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 2: We're finally together again, distance but together. 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, because of COVID we've all been recording separately, but 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: we're actually in the same socially distant space today for 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: the first time in many months. 11 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 3: And we are sitting outside to keep safe. 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: One of the things a bunch of people have asked 13 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: about is how we came upon this case, And Jeff, 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: do you want to speak to that, because you really 15 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: were the impetus for it. 16 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. 17 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 3: At KAT Studios, we do a lot of true crime programming, 18 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 3: and so we're always kind of on the lookout for 19 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 3: interesting cases that are like aired and complex that could 20 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: make for you know, compelling television documentaries. And you know, 21 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 3: when it first happened, when the Rodents were first murdered, 22 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 3: it got a fair amount of intention at the beginning, 23 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 3: and as we've talked about pretty quickly, the media kind 24 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 3: of backed off when there weren't arrests, and that was 25 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 3: kind of all there was to it and in terms 26 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 3: of our knowledge. And then in June of twenty eighteen, 27 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 3: I read an article by Jeff Winkler, who you've all 28 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 3: heard during this podcast, that he wrote for The Outline, 29 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 3: a long form article about the crime that really he 30 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 3: did such a good job of laying out the story 31 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 3: and what happened and the people involved, and it immediately 32 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 3: struck a chord with me, just the human element of 33 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 3: it all and how tragic it was. And so reached 34 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 3: out to Jeff Winkler and started the conversation about figuring 35 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 3: out how we could make this some sort of long 36 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 3: form documentary. 37 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so here's an excerpt of him talking about piped 38 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: in and part of what drew us all in. 39 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 5: So I remember that very specifically. It was a big 40 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 5: media story for about two weeks, and you know, everybody 41 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 5: from all over came to cover it, all over the world, 42 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 5: and then they left and the murder was still unsolved. 43 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: How did you end up writing because you wrote a 44 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: pretty big piece, What was the tell me about that? 45 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 5: I wrote a piece about a year later. This was, 46 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 5: after all, the sort of fanfare and media attention went away, 47 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 5: and I went to piked In a year later, almost 48 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,839 Speaker 5: to the day, about a year or two the day 49 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 5: of the killings, and I wanted to see how the 50 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 5: town was doing, both the community and the people who 51 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 5: were directly involved in it, because at that point there 52 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 5: was still no suspects, no one was really arrested or 53 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 5: being prosecuted for the crime, and it was the largest 54 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 5: unsolved murder in Ohio's history, and the second largest mass 55 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 5: murder that year in the United States, after the poll 56 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 5: shooting in Florida. 57 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 3: We had been tracking this case since it happened, and 58 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 3: when we first got involved, the Wagners hadn't been arrested 59 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 3: or weren't even being looked at as suspects by detectives. 60 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 3: So we pitched the idea of this documentary to rod 61 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 3: Asa and Corey Abraham, who are executives at NBC Universal's 62 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 3: Oxygen Network, And. 63 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: Really the spirit of that was that this huge crime 64 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: had occurred to the poor Rodin family and the killer 65 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: was at large and they were still out there. Cut 66 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: to the Wagners get arrested, and our executives at Oxygen 67 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: call us and put us on a plane to piked In. 68 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, let's talk about we've spent I mean, 69 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 3: I think between the three of us weeks in piked 70 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 3: In over the course of many trips, and yeah, you 71 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 3: guys spent more time there than I did. So I'd 72 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 3: be curious what your take on it is. 73 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: My first time was when we were going to do 74 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: the doc and I flew by myself, I think on 75 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: Thanksgiving and met Jeff Winkler, who of course wrote this 76 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 2: important article. Who we were you know, just talking to 77 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: and brainstorming with. 78 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 3: You know, Initially, this trip, Stephanie that you're talking about 79 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: was literally nine days after the arrests. You know, they 80 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 3: the Wagoners were arrested on November thirteenth, twenty eighteen. She's 81 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 3: on a plane on November twenty second, and so it 82 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 3: was really soon after that the team was there, and 83 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 3: I mean the town was I think a form of 84 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 3: shell shock at that point. 85 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 2: I think the mood in the town was really palpable. 86 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: There was something very big about what was happening around us. 87 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 2: You know, we've said this before. It is a very 88 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: small town, two thousand people. So to have eight people 89 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: murdered out of those two thousand, every single person in 90 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 2: the town is affected to some degree or knows somebody 91 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: six degrees of separation who was either on the Wagner 92 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 2: side or on the road And side. So everyone was 93 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: very affected and asking questions about this huge crime at 94 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 2: that time, you know, can can be hard because it's 95 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 2: a sensitive topic. And it seems as though the town 96 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: of piked And specifically and many of the family members 97 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 2: of victims or on the Wagner side that in previous 98 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 2: incarnations had been treated very poorly by the press, so 99 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 2: we wanted to be very sensitive about that. 100 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. 101 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: Another thing Jeff Winkler talked to us about was his 102 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: visit in twenty seventeen. 103 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 5: I think this thing that stood up for me when 104 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 5: I went to visit was just how human everyone was. 105 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 5: And I know that sounds a little trite, but I 106 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 5: mean I grew up in the Ozarks in Arkansas, so 107 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 5: coming up from the Ozarks and then spend time in 108 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 5: Texas and Tennessee, this is where I think the stories 109 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 5: are and the coverage needs to be done more. And 110 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 5: you know, when the initial coverage happened, you know, it 111 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 5: was just these sort of footage and quotes from sad 112 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 5: sort of backwoods people is how they're perceived. But everyone 113 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 5: there is full of faith and humor and you know, real, 114 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 5: real sort of American mentality. People I met there who 115 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 5: had family members had a sort of a grim humor 116 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 5: about things. So it was a way of coping. And 117 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 5: people found faith in the local church. And you find 118 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 5: these sort of avenues that people from anywhere find to 119 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 5: grieve and to sort of move on. And that was 120 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 5: I think that was the biggest thing when I went there. 121 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 6: Jeff Wick learned it becoming the greatest. 122 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: We popped in a car and drove I don't know, 123 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 2: probably fifteen hours a day door to door to various 124 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: people's homes between Kentucky and Ohio. You know, Jeff Winkler, 125 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 2: he knew this area. He'd been to piked in many 126 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: times prior, so he had already been there and had 127 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 2: the lay of the land. 128 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 6: I hadn't. 129 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 2: And you know, we've been tracking this case from far 130 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 2: far away. It's articles, it's newspapers, it's news clippings. You know, 131 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: you develop this relationship with the victims and the victims' 132 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 2: families and now the accused simply by staring at their 133 00:06:55,360 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: photos excessively and obsessively, so for me getting there. It 134 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 2: was fascinating, even just getting off the plane and renting 135 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 2: a car to drive to piked In and seeing the 136 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 2: water tower as I had seen in so many photos, 137 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 2: and wanting to kind of understand better where the high 138 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: school was, and you know, where everybody lived, and I 139 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: just remember being emotional, and it's hard. You know, we 140 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 2: make prime shows for a living, but then sometimes when 141 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: you're submerged in the place and you know what the 142 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: grief is that everybody is experiencing on the victim side 143 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: and on the accused side, it's a town ripped apart. 144 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: And to Jeff's point, there's not a single person at 145 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: the gas station or at the Walmart or at the 146 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 2: you know, local restaurant that isn't either a thought, you know, 147 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: isn't talking about it or thinking about it. 148 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 3: To your point about showing up and just knocking on doors. 149 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: As TV producers were used to being able to call 150 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 3: people and book some of these shows over the phone, 151 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 3: piked In, I think is a little bit of an outlier. 152 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 3: You know, there's not a lot of cell service there. 153 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 3: People live in the hills and it's hard to get 154 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 3: someone on the phone, and so really the only way 155 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 3: to do it was to show up, knock on the door, 156 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 3: you know, with a smat hell and a box of 157 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 3: cookies or a pie, and just hope that people would 158 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 3: a answer the door and be let us in, which 159 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 3: luckily the town of piked In was really, for the 160 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 3: most part, very kind and receptive to us as complete 161 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 3: outsiders being there. 162 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, the first place I went was Rita Newcome's home 163 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: and knocked on her door, and she was lovely. 164 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 6: Invited me right in. 165 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 2: You know, she was in fact wearing an ankle bracelet 166 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 2: because she had recently been released, and to be truthful, 167 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: at the moment, I didn't realize how embedded she potentially 168 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: was in this investigation. 169 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: The first morning I was there was the arraignment of 170 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner, and it was an interesting experience. The courtroom 171 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: was packed and completely silent. It was delayed by almost 172 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: forty minutes. It was supposed to be not a start, 173 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: and I've never sat in a more silent room filled 174 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: with people, and it was a very interesting experience seeing 175 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: Jake walk in and hearing his plea and sitting near 176 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: members of the Rodent family. 177 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 3: Were people on both sides, where people on his side 178 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 3: were people on the road and side, Like, what was 179 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 3: your experience like. 180 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, people were definitely on both sides, and the Rodents 181 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: was absolutely filled and the Wagner side was much more 182 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: sparsely filled. 183 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 3: Do you think that speaks to what we've been hearing 184 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 3: and what we've been trying to convey with this podcast, 185 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: which is that the road and family was so incredibly 186 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 3: close and as we were told, family over everything. 187 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 6: Yeah. 188 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and just the devastation that ripped through that family 189 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 1: is a little hard to comprehend. So people were definitely there. 190 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: People were definitely very sad. It was very tragic, and 191 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: but they were there showing their support. 192 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: I remember when Courtney was at that arrangement, like calling 193 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 2: you just to see what was it like. You know, again, 194 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: we have these visions in our head based solely on 195 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 2: photographs of the Wagner family, Jake Wagner being the youngest, 196 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: just to kind of be able to see him face 197 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 2: to face air quotes, or at least kind of look 198 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 2: in his eyes to see, you know, does that look 199 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 2: like a person who could actually commit something so heinous? 200 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 2: And the truth is it's really an unanswerable question. 201 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: A lot of people understandably, a lot of listeners have 202 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: asked about where the children are now. 203 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 3: Kylie, who is Hannah Rodin's newborn baby, is with her father, 204 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 3: Charlie Gilly. 205 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 2: She was the infant that was just born five days 206 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 2: prior to Hannah Rodin. I would say for all of 207 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 2: us too, and this probably would apply to listeners. To 208 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 2: the fact that there were such small infants and young 209 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 2: children left alive at the scene just kind of puts 210 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 2: a dagger in your heart. 211 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 3: So unfortunate. Sophia Wagner, who is the child of Jake 212 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 3: Wagner and Hannah Rodin, is in the care of Child 213 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 3: Protective Services, and that's something I know the Rodent family 214 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 3: is unhappy about, and I know specifically in the Wagner 215 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 3: side of it, Deray is unhappy about. I think the 216 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 3: feeling is that there are people who are blood related 217 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 3: to Sofia who could give her a really good home 218 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 3: right now. So here's a little bit from Deray about that. 219 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 3: So you were actually hoping to like take Sophia in 220 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: and give her, you know, a safe and comfortable home 221 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 3: while all this is happening. 222 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm a I'm a professional. I 223 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 7: mean I take in children with trauma that's my profession, 224 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 7: that's what I like to do. I have two boys 225 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 7: with me now who have autism. They're excellent children, they 226 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 7: are well loved, their proof in the pudding, and we 227 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:56,599 Speaker 7: would have had a really good time. 228 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 3: So they couldn't even like you couldn't even see Sophia 229 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 3: if you wanted to not. 230 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 7: All I want her to know is she's loved. I 231 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 7: don't want her to think anything's wrong. 232 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 3: So something yeah, that we've been asked about by a 233 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 3: fair amount of listeners was how the podcast has affected 234 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 3: the people that we interviewed and the people that have 235 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 3: spoken out about it. And I think for the most part, 236 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 3: it's been pretty positive in terms of who we've talked 237 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 3: to in their experience in piked It Living in piked In, 238 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 3: Barb for example, told us that she felt like the 239 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 3: podcast represented the town well and the story in a 240 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 3: fair way. Angie Montgomery, who we talked about her cousin 241 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 3: Curtis and Jenny's case, felt happy that we were finally 242 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 3: sheding a light on something that people haven't really been 243 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 3: talking about. 244 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 2: That was a really important piece of this for us, 245 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: because we care deeply about piked In first and foremost. 246 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 6: We've been there many many times. 247 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 2: The town has been extremely kind to us at a 248 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 2: time that not everyone has been that kind to them, 249 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: and making sure that we weren't coming across in any 250 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: universe as being insensitive to the victims and the victims' families, 251 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 2: understanding that there's a gag order, understanding that anything somebody 252 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 2: says could have impacts on upcoming trials. It's important. The 253 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 2: stakes are actually extremely high, and we're wildly aware of that, 254 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 2: but it's hard not to be emotional about it or 255 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: to get emotionally attached to an answer or want to 256 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 2: really understand who the boogeyman is, who's responsible for something 257 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 2: so horrible. 258 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 7: And. 259 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: As a result, I think every time we get involved 260 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: deeper into this case, we want to know more. Is 261 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: it possible that, hopefully the mom isn't involved, This couldn't 262 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 2: be if Angela Wagner was at the center of it. 263 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 2: Is it because she was being forced to be so 264 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 2: by her husband or is that just a lie? Or 265 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: was Angela wildly manipulative and coerced her boys in the 266 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 2: spirit of defending her family and defending her Sophia. And 267 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 2: if that's the case, what a silly plan? Because now 268 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 2: you're never going to see your boys again. You've all 269 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: been separated. If convicted, you'll never cross paths unless one 270 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: of you folds on the other in court. 271 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: And with four people, you know, if indeed they are 272 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 1: deemed guilty, there's the question that we raised a few 273 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: episodes ago about the informant and who that is. There 274 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: is an informant who's been written about, and if it 275 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: is one of the four, you know, if they've turned 276 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: on the rest of their family, how that would bear out, 277 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: because it would be hard for to manage that guilt 278 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: for years and years. Let's stop here for a quick 279 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: commercial break. 280 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 6: We'll be back in a moment. 281 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: So just over four years four people, in my opinion, 282 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: packed mentality would suggest that at some point the night 283 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 2: of the murders, if they've Wagner did in fact do it, 284 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: that there was a heavy there was somebody who was 285 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: the real leader, right, and that the real leader reminds 286 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 2: everybody this is why we have to do this. We're 287 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: protecting our own or we're protecting our family, or we're 288 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 2: protecting Sophia, and to some degree everybody follows along. Again, 289 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: at four different times, somebody could have changed their vote. 290 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: Who knows what the circumstances of were that night. Although 291 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: we're desperate to now add four years, four years separated, 292 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: there's zero chance at all four of them will stick 293 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 2: to the exact same story, not have the exact same 294 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 2: amount of guilt, like somebody's going to crack. If that's 295 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 2: the informant, it makes a ton of sense. And if 296 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: that's the informant who is either trying to spare themselves 297 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: or spare their family somehow, that to me would make 298 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 2: a lot of sense. The fact that George Wagner is 299 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: requesting a Bible and requesting solitary confinement for lengthy periods 300 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: of time, to me, has always been a bit of 301 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: a tell you know, Jake, Yes you're caught up. If 302 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: in fact this is true, that you need to have 303 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: custody of your child and your heartbroken and the love 304 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 2: of your life is dating somebody else and just had 305 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: a baby with somebody else, and it's filled with passion, 306 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: it's a passion kill. We made crime shows for a living. 307 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 2: Oftentimes it's love or money or revenge. Defending your family. 308 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 2: This checks all of those boxes. 309 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 6: But that was then. 310 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: Now add four years, realizing you're not around your daughter 311 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: any longer you've committed mass murder from which you can 312 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: never go back. Somebody has to crack, is my point. 313 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: Just as a legal reminder, Angela, Billy Jake, and George 314 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's mother Rita 315 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: Joe Nucomb and Billy Wagner's mother Frederica were both charged 316 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucom was also charged 317 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty, and 318 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: our justice system presumes innocence until guilt is proven. 319 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: Can we talk about one thing that has always I'm 320 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 2: going to speak for all of us, but is the 321 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 2: thing in my head that I can never get out 322 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 2: of it? In terms of whether or not we believe, 323 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: which frankly matters for nothing if the Wagoners are in 324 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 2: fact guilty or. 325 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 6: Not, it's the hacking. 326 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: Why were they hacking the Rodent family for as long 327 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: as they were And according to the official documents that 328 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 2: we have seen, it has been reported about also that 329 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 2: in fact they were busting into all of their social 330 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 2: media Why in such a mass in such a big 331 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 2: way too, It's not as though it was. It doesn't 332 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 2: appear to be Trump in if I'm incorrect, it doesn't 333 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 2: appear that, say, for example, Jake was hacking Hannah Roden's 334 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: Facebook because he was wildly jealous about her new relationship, 335 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: or that she had moved on in a new relationship. 336 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 2: That is terrible to do under any circumstance. But that 337 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 2: seems like a young person's effort. 338 00:17:58,640 --> 00:17:59,959 Speaker 6: But it doesn't seem like that was they came. 339 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: It was a fairly high level surveillance operation happening to 340 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 2: all of them. 341 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: And why what has been brought up in court is 342 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: that it was deeply organized. I mean, there were Excel 343 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: spreadsheets done, hundreds and hundreds of entries about child custody. 344 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: They put up cameras, and they were in all of 345 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: their computers and phones. 346 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 6: It was really elaborate. 347 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 2: It was elaborate, and the wagoners were often together. So 348 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: was this an activity just because they wanted to track 349 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 2: Hannah's relationship or like, where were they tracking? 350 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 6: You know? 351 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 2: What makes the most sense on the surface, and again allegedly, 352 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,239 Speaker 2: is that they were tracking the coming and goings and 353 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 2: tracking the property and understanding the dogs. It did seem 354 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: as though big dogs were common and we know for 355 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 2: a fact that the Rodents had attack dogs. Why didn't 356 00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: the dogs attack? That really does make no sense. However, 357 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 2: if you knew the dogs and you had been to 358 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 2: the home many times, as certainly Jake would have been 359 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: many times, and you had an understanding of kind of 360 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 2: how that home worked and what their habits were, it 361 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 2: does feel like an indicate that the Wagners were up 362 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 2: to no good if they were legitimately cyber stalking an 363 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 2: entire family just months prior to that family's tragic death. 364 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 3: Clinton from Ganado, Texas asked us why Sophia wasn't with 365 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 3: her mom the night of the murders and was it 366 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 3: under unusual circumstances that she was picked up by Jake 367 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 3: Wagner And yeah, it's up for debate why Sophia wasn't 368 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 3: with Hannah. Jake Wagner has admitted that he did pick 369 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 3: Sophia up a day earlier than he originally planned, and 370 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 3: that so she wasn't with her mom that fatful Friday evening. 371 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 3: Jake Wagner said on the record, I reckon we missed 372 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 3: it by just a few hours, and by it he 373 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 3: means the murders, and so we don't know what happened 374 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 3: between Jake Wagner and Hannah Rode in the night of 375 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 3: the murders, or why he told her he was picking 376 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 3: her up early, or why he did pick her up early. 377 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 3: But we do know she was supposed to be with 378 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 3: her mom that night, and for reasons we don't know, 379 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 3: Jake Wagner did take her home early. 380 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 2: And my expectation would be if we have texts exchanges, 381 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 2: just based on the fact that we know that people 382 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 2: text so frequently because the reception between phones can be 383 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 2: spotty in these rural places, there has to be some 384 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 2: sort of a message saying I will pick her up 385 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,239 Speaker 2: early or requesting to pick her up early. I think 386 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 2: that is another huge smoking gun, the fact that Sophia 387 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 2: wasn't there that day and was picked up by Jake 388 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 2: off of schedule. He's changed his story on this a 389 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 2: couple of times, and I think this was a key 390 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 2: place where there was an inconsistency about this topic. But regardless, 391 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: it is suspicious. 392 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: And we disagree on that. I think things happen, and 393 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: what seems the simplest explanation to me is that Hannah 394 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: Roadin had just had a baby days before, and maybe 395 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: she wanted to break with just her infant and not 396 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: a toddler, but something we don't know. 397 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 3: Jay from Storm like Iowa asked us what happens if 398 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 3: the Wagners get off? Will they get custody of Sophia? 399 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 3: I can only imagine that if the Wagners do get off, 400 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 3: they will attempt to get back to their normal life, 401 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 3: and it's possible they would want custody of Sophia. But 402 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 3: former prosecutor Mike Allen told me that because they were 403 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 3: so closely linked to the murders, it may be difficult 404 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 3: for Jake Wagner to obtain custody, which, if he's innocent, 405 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 3: is tragic to think that because he was mixed up 406 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 3: in this he wouldn't be able to get to race 407 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 3: his daughter. Here's an excerpt of that conversation with Mike Allen. 408 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 3: So let's say Jake Wagner does get off and has 409 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 3: proven not guilty. So do you think he doesn't have 410 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 3: a chance of getting Sophia back? 411 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 4: Probably has a chance of getting her back, But I 412 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 4: think a judge would be hard press to grant custody 413 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 4: for someone who was named as a defendant in a 414 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 4: multiple homicide case, even if he is acquitted. You just 415 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 4: don't know, but I'll tell you what, that's not going 416 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 4: to be decided, I don't think for many years to come. 417 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 3: Even if he let's say he really didn't do it 418 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 3: and he's being held, you know, wrongly accused, that he 419 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 3: never gets to see his daughter again, she never hear 420 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 3: he dady like that even alone is such a tragedy. 421 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 4: Well, if there's no evidence or no strong evidence against 422 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 4: him and he's acquitted and people are scratching their head thinking, well, 423 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 4: why was he even indicted, I suppose he would have 424 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 4: a chance then, but you never know, I mean, you 425 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 4: never know what happens in a criminal trial. The custody 426 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 4: battle is one that will probably outlive the criminal case. 427 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 4: That will probably go on for years and years and years. 428 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 4: I mean, obviously it was a contentious subject before the murders. 429 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 4: Again many believe that that was the primary motive. But 430 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 4: that will continue to go on. They'll probably be news 431 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 4: court hearings for years until that's finally settled. And that's 432 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 4: a shame because the children, if they're not already hurt, 433 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 4: which of course they are, they're going to continue to 434 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 4: be victimized, probably for long a long time to come. 435 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 3: Susan from New Vienna, Ohio asked us when the trials 436 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 3: are supposed to begin, and that's an interesting question. Obviously, 437 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 3: the Wagners did waive their right to a speedy trial, 438 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 3: but now because of COVID, it seems that the trials 439 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 3: have been delayed. Billy Wagner's attorney, Mark Collins, said that 440 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 3: the trials have been put on hold. Angela, Wagner's attorney, 441 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 3: said something different. He said the trials were supposed to 442 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 3: begin this fall, which would be very soon, if not imminent. 443 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 3: So it's unclear about what is exactly is happening, but 444 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 3: we do know that right now the pre trial hearings 445 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 3: are happening. George Wagner just had his last week, so 446 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 3: things are starting to move in the right direction. 447 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: There was an attempt to be made to get him 448 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 2: released on bond. Seems very different than somebody being held 449 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 2: in solitary confinement with a Bible waiting for their last days. 450 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: These are death penalty trials, you know, that's not to 451 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 2: be underestimated. Four separate capital punishment trials are a big deal, 452 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 2: and one surely affects the other, and any inconsistency from 453 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: one to the next has to be a paramount to 454 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 2: all I would imagine, you know, I. 455 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 6: Don't know the answer to that. 456 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: That's a good question because they are four separate trials, 457 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: so I don't know actually if one has bearing on 458 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: the other. I mean, you know, you'd assume the evidence 459 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: some of it will be similar, but it's it's all 460 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: going to be dependent. For example, I remember reading that 461 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: DNA was there is confirmed that the prosecution has DNA evidence. 462 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: What that evidence is, we don't know, but there's been 463 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: made mention of it, so you know, the fact that 464 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: there's differences in DNA is going to change the course 465 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: of those four trials completely. 466 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: I was just suggesting that those four trials, the I guess, 467 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 2: the narrative from each of the Wagner members family members 468 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 2: has to be pretty buttoned up. 469 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 6: If there's one inconsistency between. 470 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: Jake's story and his mom's story or their dad's story, 471 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 2: that's a big deal. 472 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back 473 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: in a moment. 474 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 3: Another question we got was from call from Belfast, Ohio, 475 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 3: who asked us, if something happens and the Wagners are 476 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 3: found not guilty, how do we think the town would 477 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 3: react to them being back and piked In, and would 478 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 3: they be able to stay in the town. It's a 479 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 3: good question, and based on what we've heard in the 480 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 3: reaction to the Wagners, I personally think it would be 481 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 3: really hard for them to stay and piked In. You know, 482 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 3: we talked to a Wagner family member who wished to 483 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 3: remain anonymous, who gave us some pretty horrible details about 484 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 3: what happened to them before the arrests. That being said, 485 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 3: you know, Frederica does have a lot of land in 486 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 3: piked In, and they have a lot of ties to 487 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 3: the community, so they might that might be where they 488 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 3: would call home. 489 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 2: Frederica Wagner is also an interesting piece to this puzzle. 490 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 2: By all accounts, she's the great matriarch of the Wagner Empire, 491 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: and you know, she looks like such a beautiful grandmother, 492 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,479 Speaker 2: like you would conjure up in your head or if 493 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 2: you were casting a movie, that you wouldn't believe somebody 494 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: could look so perfect. 495 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 6: She wears this little black lace. 496 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 2: It's not a veil over her face, it's sort of 497 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: like an overlay, but it's really a look that makes 498 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 2: you think, oh, she could never be involved, and she's 499 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 2: so beloved by the town and has done so many 500 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 2: charitable things. That's a real cross section of opinion. 501 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 6: So many some. 502 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 2: People say that she is a pure saint, the kindest, 503 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 2: the nicest, the most genuine, the most charitable human that 504 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 2: has ever walked the earth, and others say she's downright wicked. 505 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, there's two sides to every coin, and 506 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: I think both of what you said bears out. It 507 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: really depends on what your perspective is. If you are 508 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: one of the people who Frederica Wagner has helped along 509 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: the way and provided food and assistance, you are going 510 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: to see the godly woman that so many people speak of. 511 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: And if you are one of the people who were 512 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: renting land that you were supposed to be buying at 513 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: the end of it, and then you allegedly had that 514 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: land pulled out from under you and revert back to Frederica, 515 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: then you're going to feel very, very differently. Both things are. 516 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 2: True, both things are true. That's I guess what's so 517 00:27:54,760 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 2: complicated about this. So you know, discovery continues, and these 518 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 2: trials I think would be set sooner than later. Is 519 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 2: I would imagine the hope the defense of the Wagoners 520 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: was trying to move the trial outside of Pikedon because 521 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 2: getting twelve unbiased jurors might be challenging, and they were 522 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 2: ultimately denied that privilege. That's kind of a strike against 523 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 2: the defense. What we have heard from the prosecution is 524 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 2: that they are accumulating a lot of evidence at this point, 525 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 2: and much of it we can't get our hands on. 526 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 2: So they've been pretty tight lipped outside of the silencers, 527 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: the vests, the shoes that were bought at Walmart, DNA 528 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 2: evidence that's said to be found at one, if not 529 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 2: multiple crime scenes. But outside of that, they've kept a 530 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 2: lot of things to themselves, understandably so, and that I 531 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: think we're going to hear about sooner than later, because 532 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 2: who goes first, I think is very interesting. Who do 533 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 2: you guys think will be up first? 534 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: You know, I'll go just by the arraignment, and I 535 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: believe I'm correct that Jake Wagner was the first of 536 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: the Wagners to be arraigned, So I would bet Jake. 537 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: And a lot of the thought is that, you know, 538 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: since custody allegedly is at the center, so I say, 539 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner. 540 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 2: I was going to say that the eldest son, George 541 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: Wagner would be up first. But wow, what a shocker 542 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 2: if Jake Wagner is up first, because then, to me, 543 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 2: there's no question that his involvement with the Rodents is 544 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 2: at the center of these trials at the bare minimum, 545 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 2: whether he did or did not do it, that one 546 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 2: piece would follow all of the trials. 547 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 6: I would imagine. 548 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: Reach out to us on our social media outlets with questions. 549 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: We're on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at Pike and Massacre. 550 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: We look forward to answering your questions in upcoming episodes. 551 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,239 Speaker 1: Piked In Massacre is executive produced by Stephanie Leidecker and 552 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by executive producer 553 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: Jared Aston. Additional producing by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. 554 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: The piked In Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio. 555 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 6: And Katie Studios. 556 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 557 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.