1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: Buddy Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Have you ever been 2 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: in a position where your doorbell has rung and you 3 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: don't know who's actually going to be showing up, but 4 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: you think you had an appointment with someone. You walk 5 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: to your door, and just imagine this, just for a second. 6 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: You walk to your door and there is a diminutive 7 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: little lady standing there, and she looks like a child, 8 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: and she's dressed in a schoolgirl's outfit, and she's carrying 9 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: a book back with her and you look at her 10 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: and you remember, oh, yes, she is my tutorial appointment 11 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: that I have because she has arranged for me to 12 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: come up over and I'm going to help her learn English. 13 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: And you open the door up and all of a 14 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: sudden you realize that you've opened the door and Satan 15 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: has walked through. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 16 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: Body Bags Live from Orlando Crime Con twenty twenty three. Dave, 17 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: we began, thank you guys. We began to talk about 18 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: a topic that has to do with forensics, and it 19 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: kind of pivoted on this particular case because one of 20 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: the things I was thinking about at the time, it 21 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: seems and some of this is media perception, I know, 22 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: because I get so much stuff in coming. Dave does too, 23 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: because Dave does a lot of research for Nancy, matter 24 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: of fact, a ton of research. So when you hear 25 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: her on the air, a lot of the research behind 26 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: the scenes is coming from this man. Okay. So, but 27 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: what we did notice is that there seemed to be 28 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: an uptick in the number of dismemberment cases that were 29 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: presenting in the news, and we're going to talk about 30 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: some of those and kind of talk about the nature 31 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: of dismemberment and how that impacts forensic scientist and what 32 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: we look for. It seems, particularly from a medical legal perspective. 33 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: But back to this young lady that showed up at 34 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: the door, it was an absolutely gruesome event and I 35 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: can't imagine that anyone would have expected this. 36 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: You know, the setup here with young you Young. She's 37 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: South Korean and the way they actually talked about her 38 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: is that she is an obsessed crime fan, all right. 39 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: One of the articles online actually said she's the kind 40 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 2: of girl that would go to crime con That's what 41 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 2: caught our attention, is this is a crime fan and 42 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: her goal. She's twenty three years old, but She's short, 43 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 2: and if you see pictures of her, she looks young. 44 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: She poses as her mother and calls this tutor and says, 45 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: I have a fourteen year old daughter. She's going into 46 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: ninth grade. She wants to learn English, and so she 47 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 2: sets up a day in time. Then as her mother, 48 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: then as herself. She goes online and orders a schoolgirl outfit. 49 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 2: She shows up wearing this school uniform as a ninth grader, 50 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 2: presents herself to the tutor as such, and is allowed in. 51 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 2: I've seen pictures of her. She looks like she's about fourteen. 52 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: Joe very diminutive, Tony, you know, the last person in 53 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: the world that you would expect to rain down hell 54 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: on this poor woman that teaches people in her house. 55 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: And I think that what really caught my eye with this, Well, 56 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: first off, she's a true crime fan, obsessed with She's 57 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: obsessed with it. Yeah, it's that was fascinating to me. 58 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: And I think that one of the issues with her 59 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: is she dig this. She wanted to find out if 60 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: she could get away with it, if she could commit 61 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: a crime. And I'm not talking about just a homicide, 62 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: but also a dismemberment. Relative to when you begin to 63 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: kind of look at the totality of it, all of 64 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: the trace evidence, tool mark evidence, everything that we do 65 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: in my little world where you can actually tie something 66 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: back to this, and she wanted to see if she 67 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: could get past all of that. 68 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: She studied everything, she watched, all the shows, she went online. 69 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: I mean, her research was pretty phenomenal. The one thing 70 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 2: she forgot though, is that if you actually watch a 71 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 2: lot of true crime stuff, the last three to five 72 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: minutes are how they got caught, which is where the 73 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 2: forensics come into everything. And in this particular case, she 74 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: had planned everything to the beginning. Remember Leopold and Lowe, 75 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 2: they actually wanted to do the perfect crime. Well, so 76 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 2: did she. A little research would have showed her She's 77 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 2: not the first to attempt this. And the reason we 78 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: know that is because they all get caught. 79 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, do. 80 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 2: Her particular thing, and this boggles my mind, is that 81 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: she was gonna she's a small lady. I mean, she's 82 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: twenty three years old and she's oh, diminutive is a 83 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 2: good term. She looks like a schoolgirl. How is she 84 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: going to take care of the situation? How is she 85 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 2: going to manage it? 86 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: Joe? 87 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 2: How is she going to take this tutor, kill her, 88 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: dismember her them, cutting her up, and then disposed of 89 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: the body. How is she going to create this perfect crime? 90 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: You know, for a long time, not only was I 91 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: in the field as an investigator, but the best classroom 92 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: I was ever in was the Morgue. And over the 93 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: course of my career, I participated in over seven thousand autopsies. 94 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: So and it doesn't mean that I'm some brilliant genius. 95 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: It just means I was too dumb to walk out 96 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: of the autopsy room. So every time a case would 97 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: be there, I would help and participate in it as 98 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: a dean or an autopsy assistant. And so, but the 99 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: differences in that environment when we're doing dissections or as 100 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: forensic pathologists refer to them as pro sections, we have 101 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: the instruments that we need there, very sharp instruments. We've 102 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: got everything from very sharp scalpels, we have scissors, we 103 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: have big knives do dissections with. And we have bone 104 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: sauce agitating bone sauce. If you've never seen when you 105 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: probably hear them or see them on these television shows, 106 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: and they make a real high pitch. Does this does 107 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: sound like this? And it's an agitating saw. Just imagine 108 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: if you've ever had a cast that's what one of 109 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: these saws is like. They're actually you know, when you 110 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: think about that, you want to tissue. You say, give 111 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: me a cleanex Well, in our world, if somebody says 112 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: I need to know where the striker is, striker is 113 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: actually a brand of saw and it's something that I've 114 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: been using for years and years, but you can use 115 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: it for very robust and delicate work. 116 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 2: Is it going to have teeth on it like a saw? 117 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: We just have tiny little teeth like exactly like a 118 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: cast saw. But if you were to turn on an 119 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: agitating saw, a bone saw, or in this case, a 120 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: striker and place it to your skin, it's not going 121 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: to it's not going to hurt you to the point 122 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: where it's going to break the skin. And that's the 123 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: trick because if someone is about to dismember an individual, 124 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: you literally have to get through the soft tissue first. 125 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: And what we're finding in a lot of these cases 126 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: is they show up ill prepared and a lot of 127 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: these events are are events of convenience where they'll show 128 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: up or use something that's within their reach. We're going 129 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: to talk about a case in just a moment where 130 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: the individual will reach out and grab something that's in 131 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: the in the knife drawer or something that's out in 132 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: the shed, and it's a tool that is not necessarily 133 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: made for that purpose. 134 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: All right, what did she use here? What did Young 135 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: Zoo Young use to dismember her tutor? 136 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: Well, for her, she actually used knives that she brought 137 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: along with her. 138 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: I've cut a steak before. Yeah, cheap one, tough to cut. 139 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 2: I got a feeling a body that was warm a 140 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: few minutes ago is not going to be easy to 141 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 2: cut with any knife. 142 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,559 Speaker 1: No, it's not there. They are two most of the time. 143 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: They're very malleable. The fresh dead are. So she would 144 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: have had to have been there for a while. 145 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: And now she would have had to get through the 146 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: bone too. 147 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, she would have. And that's another difficulty too 148 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: for somebody that's never been faced with the situation and 149 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: some of the things that people that commit dismemberments are 150 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: become quickly aware of. If their purpose to do this, 151 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: they don't expect how much blood there's going to be. 152 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: And that's why in the morgue we have a stainless 153 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: steel table that has a water source on it. 154 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 2: They don't wait a minute, How much are we talking 155 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 2: about just right here with the twenty three year old 156 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: using knives, yes, to cut up a body? How much 157 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: blood is there? I mean, are we talking quarts? Are 158 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: we talking? 159 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: Well? You know, if you think about that, and average 160 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: is relative, but you begin to think about the human body, 161 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: it can have anywhere from roughly just under one and 162 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 1: a half gallons to there's some studies that say over 163 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: to gallons, so and again a lot of that is 164 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: dictated by size and that sort of thing. 165 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: What about other body fluids, because we've all heard the 166 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: stories of when somebody dies every thing, let's go. 167 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: Well, not that's not necessarily the case really every circumstance. 168 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest things that you encounter 169 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 1: is when individuals have to or attempt to do a 170 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: dissection on the body. First off, anatomically, they don't understand 171 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: connective tissue. They don't understand where the joints are. Even 172 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 1: if you look at somebody that's like a butcher, they 173 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: know that they can disarticulate a body from a joint 174 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: a lot quicker than going, say, taking a steak knife 175 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: and try to go across one of the long bones 176 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: in the leg like a femur, and that that's something 177 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: that's not quite quite quite possible to do. 178 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 2: Okay, And then let's just get to the she's all 179 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 2: cut up, Yes, but you've got a big mess to 180 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: clean up. Yes, and then you have to transport the 181 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: body somehow, yes, all right. Forensically, Joe, what are you 182 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 2: going to find after the fact, after this body is 183 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: now in bags, what's going to be left? Even if 184 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: I use bleach and everything else as she did trying 185 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 2: to clean up. 186 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: She showed up actually with bleach. And here here's the thing. 187 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: It comes to this point where you qualify the people 188 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: that do these dismemberments, and you think, well, is this 189 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: an event of opportunity where they just suddenly fly into 190 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 1: a rage that kill someone, Oh my gosh, what do 191 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: I do now? Or is it a circumstance where they 192 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: show up and they're highly prepared and they are able 193 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: to essentially section the body out into smaller pieces and 194 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: package that body, whether it being plastic or paper, tape 195 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: it up, and they might dispose or deposit the body 196 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: in a variety of locations. But here's one of the 197 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: interesting things about dismemberment is that when people perpetrate this 198 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: and they take the remains from the residence, one of 199 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: the studies shows that they never go a long distance 200 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: away from the area that they're familiar in. This goes 201 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: to this actually goes to the phase within serial killing 202 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: where they hunt in the area. And you know, we 203 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: were talking about Gilgo yesterday with Nancy, and some of 204 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: those early bodies had actually been dismembered. Well, it's been 205 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: fascinating that if in fact rex Hureman had, you know, 206 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: he perpetrated these the deposition of those early remains as 207 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: the crow flies, it's not very far so it's not 208 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 1: like they would drive out of state to deposit these 209 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: remains or into another location within the state to deposit 210 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: these remains. So they're going to drop these remains in 211 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: an approximation, or they're just going to try to disassemble 212 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: the body and then bury it right there. But here's 213 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: the problem. Every time you make some kind of strike 214 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: or mark on even tissue or certainly bone, you leave 215 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: a little trace of evidence. And this goes back to 216 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: Lecard's principle that I talk about all the time many 217 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: years ago at Edmund Lecard who's called the Sherlock Holmes 218 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: of France. He made a statement that every contact leaves 219 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: a trace. So if you think about a knife a saw, 220 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what kind of saw. It could be 221 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: a table saw, it could be a chainsaw, it could 222 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: be a carpenter saw. That every time you make a mark, 223 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: you're leaving something that is identifiable by a tool mark 224 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: expert or forensic pathologist on that surface. 225 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 2: All right, Now, in this particular case, this woman who 226 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: is an obsessed crime junkie planning the perfect crime. Can 227 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 2: you imagine when you're figuring out your getaway, how am 228 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 2: I going to dispose of these remains? She decided to 229 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 2: use a cab, And just for those of us during 230 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: crime con that have used cabs and Uber and everything else, 231 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 2: they pay attention. And that's what actually caught her. The 232 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 2: cab driver actually was she was just doing some really 233 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 2: unusual things in her bags and everything else, and he 234 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: picks up the phone and calls the law, and there 235 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 2: you go. She had not planned out the perfect crime. 236 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: No, and rarely people I think that a lot of 237 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: folks think that these dismemberments that you hear about are 238 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 1: all related to serial perpetrators who have this long standing 239 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: plan where they're really thinking this thing out. I beg 240 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: to differ in the line's share of these cases, and 241 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: certainly as a practitioner when I was with the ME 242 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: in Atlanta, in the Corner in New Orleans, the cases 243 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: that I worked relative to dismemberment had nothing to do 244 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: with a serial perpetrator. Most of the time it was 245 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: now imagine this, it was an intimate within the circle. 246 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: It was somebody that the perpetrator had a lot of 247 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: anger toward. Think about that just for a second, because 248 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: it's not enough to merely kill someone, but in the 249 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: post wartum state, you're literally disassembling that body and desecrating 250 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: that body, And so that's kind of a fascinating issue 251 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: relative to that. When I was very young and I 252 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: just started out with a corner in New Orleans, we 253 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: had in that environment it's very very hard. She had 254 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: bodies that break down very quickly, and we would get 255 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: many bodies, many remains that would come out of bodies 256 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: of water. And so we had one in particular that 257 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: had a bullet hole defect in the back of the head. 258 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: Right here. If you feel the bump on the back 259 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: of your skull right here, the occiput right in this area. 260 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: We knew that it was a gunshot wound. But here's 261 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: the problem. We didn't know who this person was. And 262 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: at the time, my dear friend, if you get a 263 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: chance to check her books out, her name is Mary 264 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: Manheim and she's called the Bone Lady, and she founded 265 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: the faces lap at LSU and they were the first 266 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: person to actually digitize a human skull. But we needed 267 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: to get this skull, this head to LSU so that 268 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: she could do an examination of it. And being young, 269 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: I was twenty two years old, and I was terrified 270 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: of the forensic pathologists that I worked with. And when 271 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: you're young, anybody can identify with that somebody that's in 272 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: this position over you. And he gave me specific instructions. 273 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: Plus he was a four Marine. He looked at me 274 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: and said, under no circumstances are you to allow this 275 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: this head out of your sight? And I was like, yes, sir, 276 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: And so I had actually removed the head at autopsy 277 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: during our examination, we had done an X ray on it. 278 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: You have to We disarticulated the head between the C 279 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: one and the C two and those tissues are very 280 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: soft because it's a decomposing body. And he said, grab 281 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: a cooler, get some ice, put the bag in a head, 282 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: put the head in a bag, and put the bag 283 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: in the cooler. Cover it nice, Get in your car 284 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: and get to LSU as quickly as you can. Well, 285 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: i'd been around the body all day long, and you 286 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: forget about the smell because you're in the environment. But 287 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: then i'd get into my car, which has cloth seats, 288 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: and I am listening in the back of my mind. 289 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: I have these words ringing in my ears, and I 290 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: have this It's a styrofoam white cooler. It's sitting on 291 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: the front seat, and it's in New Orleans, so it's 292 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: blistering hot. It was summertime, and I had the air 293 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: on high and I'd rolled down the windows. I used 294 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: to have a little blue light that I would put 295 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: on the dash and you had to plug it into 296 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: the cigarette lighter. I got on it in and I 297 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: just put my foot in it. I was flying and 298 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: you'd come to this area that's called the Bond Carry Spillway. 299 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 1: That's this area that goes over the far western side 300 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: of Lake ponta train And what people don't know is 301 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: that when you get to the end of the Bond 302 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: Carry spillway, there's a grassy area and guess who sits there? 303 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: State patrol. And so I came off of this thing 304 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 1: just blazing. That little light, which is about that big, 305 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: was just kind of spinning very slowly like this, and 306 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: I'm driving like this because it smells so bad in 307 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: my car. Well, I get pulled over and he comes 308 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: running up to the car and they normally don't run, 309 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: and he's like, you know what in the blanky blank 310 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: are you doing? Why are you going so fast with 311 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: that blue light? And where are you going? Why are 312 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: you you know this and that? And I said, sir, 313 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: can you just smell inside my car? And he stuck 314 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:49,959 Speaker 1: his head and he's like, Jesus, Jesus, what he got 315 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: in the box? And the guy's nose was just sticking 316 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: up out of the ice. And I lifted up the 317 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 1: lid like this, and he said, I'll give you an 318 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: escort like that, and I closed it and off we 319 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: went to Baton Rouge. So the reason, the reason I 320 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: thought that was kind of a salient point is is 321 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: the fact that in the morgue and in that environment, 322 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: when we have to do dissections. We have all of 323 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: the instruments that are needed within that environment and with 324 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: shab business this case. How many of you guys have 325 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: heard the shab business case. It's been in the news 326 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: for some time, and it's a horrible case. It's something 327 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: that first off, that's not actually her name, she legally 328 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: changed it, and the whole thing was kind of super bizarre. 329 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: And when you begin to hear this played out and 330 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: what this young man's mother went through at that as 331 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: a result of what she discovered, it made me reflect 332 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 1: when Dave and I were talking about this, about that 333 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: moment on it outside of New Orleans. 334 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about the nine one one call that 335 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: comes in at three forty five from a mother who says, hey, 336 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: I found something in a bucket, and I don't know 337 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 2: what they get. I don't know what nine one one 338 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 2: calls deal with them. I've heard plenty of them. But 339 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: this woman found her own son's head in a bucket 340 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: covered with a towel, and there were other things in 341 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: the bucket. Well, okay, there was at least one other 342 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 2: thing and a lot of fluid in the bucket covered 343 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: with a towel, and that's why she calls nine to 344 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 2: one one, right, and that brings in the officers to 345 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 2: come and take a look. And what they found was 346 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 2: that Taylor should Business, who's only twenty four years. 347 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: Old and married, and married I add that to it. 348 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 2: This is one of those things when you're going what 349 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 2: were you thinking? You know, and you're I don't know 350 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: how this plays out, but I will tell you this. 351 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 2: When you add methamphetamine, sex and somebody who has a 352 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 2: real bent on looking at things, you end up with 353 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: your head in a bucket. 354 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is the thing they victim and should 355 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: Business were engaged in very risky sex play, bondage, torture, 356 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And it's one of these moments 357 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: that kind of escalated in this particular event when the 358 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: mother actually came down the stairs, as Dave was pointing out, 359 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: and I think that it's kind of one of those 360 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: moments in time where the perpetrator does this and they're 361 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: not maybe they're in this rush, this moment of excitement. 362 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: They grab what is at hand in order to facilitate this. 363 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: They know that they're dealing with a lot of blood, 364 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: which they had in this case, and she deposits his 365 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: head in a bucket, and beneath his head were actually 366 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: his genitalia that she had removed as well, and then 367 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: she covered it and left us behind for the mother 368 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: to find. And this is not a case where an 369 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: individual had thought through in order to kill someone, dismembered 370 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: the body, and then began to deposit it. It's almost 371 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: like there is another level of anger and evil that's 372 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: involved in this. And I think that even she had 373 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: stated that she didn't nearly necessarily hold any kind of 374 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: anger toward him at all, became he became kind of 375 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: a plaything for her, I think, at that point in time, 376 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: and she decided to act out wildly, in my opinion, 377 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: this fantasy that involved literally dismembering part of his body 378 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 1: and leaving it there for the mom to find. She 379 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: took off she took off other items from his body 380 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: as well. 381 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 2: You did the one thing that she told police as 382 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: they were going through the investigation, if she admitted that 383 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: she remembered strangling him or no, she knows that she 384 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 2: strangled him, but she actually told police, Okay, I don't 385 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: remember strangling him, but I remember liking it. Yeah, how 386 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 2: can you like something you don't remember? 387 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: Well, I think again that and again not a psychologist, 388 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: but I see the result of what happens relative to 389 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: these events that are just infused with anger, and what 390 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: could drive an individual that might otherwise and any other 391 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: circumstance not go to this extreme in order to begin 392 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: to essentially take a part of body of a young 393 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,479 Speaker 1: man and then on top of it, leave it within 394 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: the residence that is the residence of his mom. He 395 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: lived in the basement, and the mother and for the 396 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: mother to find And it's one of these shocking events 397 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: that it's almost like a one two punch. Not only 398 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: are you having to first off, realize that your son's 399 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: head is in a bucket, and I can only imagine 400 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: at that moment, Tom, how is she going to be 401 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: able to process that? But the reality her son is 402 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: dead and potentially this person that he's friends with has 403 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: done this, and I don't know, I would think she's 404 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: still in the house at this point. 405 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 2: Right, And it's not even just stopping at the head. 406 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 2: That's the other part of this, going back to this memberment. 407 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 2: I mean, you don't want to say like that's not 408 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: bad enough. I mean it is, but cutting off his 409 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: private parts just adds to it that wasn't where she stopped. 410 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 2: She actually told police, Yeah, you found this part, but 411 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 2: good luck finding the additional parts. 412 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the big thing for me from a 413 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: forensic standpoint. You begin to think about because some of 414 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: that initial information, when you show up at a scene 415 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 1: and you have either a suspect or somebody that might 416 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: be a primary witness, they're giving you fresh information. At 417 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: that point in time, when the police actually arrested her, 418 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: she was so bold as to say, good luck finding 419 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: everything else, everything else relative to this young man's body 420 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: that she had just sat there and actually toyed with 421 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: and done a way. And here's another thing that's kind 422 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: of fascinating, and this plays into another level of this. 423 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: She was charged in addition to this, she was charged 424 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: with sexual assault on a corpse in this particular case 425 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: as well, So she had involved herself in penetrative sex 426 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: with a corpse in addition to dismembering his remains. 427 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 2: And see the other part of this too that I 428 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: was looking at, and that's why I made notes, Joe, 429 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 2: because when we've covered this story and a lot of 430 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 2: you are familiar with it, but I was looking at 431 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: the fact that they found like they're finding parts in 432 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 2: other places, like in her minivan. Yeah, finding a leg 433 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 2: here and you know, a thigh over here or what 434 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 2: I mean. It's like a bucket of chicken almost, And 435 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 2: it's like we're human beings, We're supposed to be better 436 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 2: than that. But for whatever reason, we have now come 437 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 2: to this level in life where the body is nothing. 438 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that you have a callousness that 439 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 1: rises up. And and the fact that she would take 440 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: something with her of this of this gentleman's mortal remains 441 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: and have them in her vehicle. She had indicated that 442 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: they were there, and that the police actually found them there, 443 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: and it gives you an idea of the comfort that 444 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: she had been around the remains. And that's that's a. 445 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: How long would it take to do this, Joe? How 446 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 2: long would it take to I mean, chopping off the 447 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 2: guy's head in his private parts? I get it. That's 448 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,479 Speaker 2: got to be hard through the neck, though, how are 449 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 2: you going to cut through the neck with it? 450 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: Could be accomplished if you had a sharp enough knife, 451 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: and if you were limited, which she was, if you're 452 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: limited to anything that is at hand, like a carpenter saw, 453 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: or if you had a strong, serrated knife, it could 454 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 1: be possible. The trick is to find the soft spot 455 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: or where the disk are located in the neck in 456 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: order to cut through them. It's very difficult. The vertebral 457 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: bodies are very robust, so this is not something you're 458 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: going to get through with a steak knife. So you 459 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: look for those weak points in there in order to 460 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: dissect off the head. 461 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 2: And then cutting up all the other parties. We've got 462 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 2: a foot here, and. 463 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it takes some time, and it takes purpose. 464 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: And this is it because you know, look, I'm not 465 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: saying that I'm a serial killer or a dismemberer, but 466 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time in the morgue. I 467 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: have tools that are at my at my disposal in 468 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: order to facilitate this, and I have some understanding human anatomy. 469 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: You're talking about a person that's coming in coal to 470 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: this that, to the best of our knowledge, at this 471 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: point time, she has no pre this experience with whatsoever. 472 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: I don't think she's an anatomus. I don't think that 473 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: she's a nurse. She doesn't understand this at this point 474 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: in tom All she knows is that she's in a 475 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: fever and during this period of time. The sex was 476 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: not simply enough. She had to take it to the 477 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: next level. 478 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 2: Are you going to be able to identify what knife 479 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: was used to cut this? Will it be parts on 480 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 2: the bone? I know, going through soft tissue and joints, 481 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 2: but you're gonna be hitting bone, I would think, you 482 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: know on accident, if nothing else, can you trace that 483 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: nick or cut back to the right night? 484 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and if you have, you know, if you 485 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: have this evidence that is left behind on the bone, 486 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: we get what is referred to. How many of you 487 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: guys have ever used a handsaw on a piece of 488 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: wood And when you first begin to utilize the saw, 489 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: it jumps out of that initial groove that you create 490 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: and it kind of hops over those refer to a 491 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: stop start. So if you and you'll see multiple of these. 492 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: If you're just doing carpentry around the house or something, 493 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: you don't have a skill saw, you're using an old 494 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: and sometimes it's hard to get started. 495 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 2: What's like getting started on skin? 496 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: Well, you have to trim through the skin with an 497 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: edged weapon in order to get down to the bone 498 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: in order to facilitate this. And is it possible, Yes, 499 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: it is possible. In the Morgue. We can tell the 500 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: difference on soft tissue if compared say a smooth blade 501 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: a non serrated edge blade. We can see the difference 502 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: between the margins of those injuries relative to a serrated 503 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: blade as opposed to say a traditional butcher knife. But 504 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: you have to get through all of the soft tissue, 505 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: the skin, the SubQ fat, down through the muscle, and 506 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: then finally to the bone, and the knife is just 507 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: not going to cut it. So you're going to have 508 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: to use something else that you can facilitate this with 509 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: to actually move, you know, to remove the limb. 510 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 2: When you were talking about it jumping out of the track, Okay, 511 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 2: when you're holding a piece of wooden, you do that. 512 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 2: I mean it's hard, I mean you actually can you 513 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 2: slowly it going. And that's what I was thinking, with 514 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 2: getting through skin and everything else, that that would have 515 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 2: to be wiggly, I would think, I mean, not trying 516 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 2: to be gross. I'm just trying to in my head. 517 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so every time. Steve Simms, who works as 518 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: a forensic anthropologist and trained famously at the at the 519 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: Body Farm. Steve is one of the leading experts in 520 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: the world on tool marks on bone and he studied 521 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: dismemberment cases for years and years, and so he categorizes 522 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: these things relative to whether or not is a power tool. 523 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 1: And when I say power tool, I'm talking about something 524 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: that requires electricity. You know, I mentioned a skill saw. 525 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: You could have a table saw, which we've had cases 526 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: like that we could use. Somebody could potentially use a 527 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: sau saw to take off risk and certainly chainsaws that's 528 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: a powered instrument. And so each one of these is 529 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: going to be very unique. Here's the trick though. One 530 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: of the things about these edged edged instruments is that 531 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: they are unique to the user. How they've been cared for, 532 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: so you can have it's almost like ballistic evidence as well. 533 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: If you have a knife that is of the same 534 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: type and they are made in the same run. Depended 535 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: upon how these knives are stored, how they're utilized, you 536 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: could have the same knife created in the same day 537 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: and they're going to leave behind a different mark on 538 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: the bone because of their utility, how they've been used 539 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: over the years, and at a microscopic level, particularly if 540 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: you look at them on cross section, you'll be able 541 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: to appreciate this. If it is just so you can 542 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: kind of get an idea about this. If you've ever 543 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:41,239 Speaker 1: seen seen a spiral cut ham, and you look at 544 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: the ham and the long bone that goes through the 545 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: center of the ham, you'll see these kind of swirls 546 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: that are on the end of the bone that's actually 547 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: the saw passing through and trimming it out. Those are 548 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: specific tool marks that are left behind. So when you think, 549 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: and here's the thing, many times people that do dismember 550 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: I've had several cases where people would get frustrated and 551 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: could not make it through the bone, and they'll take 552 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: the actual bone and crack it and then and then 553 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: slice through the rest of the soft tissue. So you'll 554 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: have an area where you'll have a tool mark strike 555 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: an initial area there, and then it'll be this kind 556 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: of post traumatic I say post traumatic. It's post mortem 557 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: fracturing that goes on where the bone is snapped away 558 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: and then they cut the rest of it through and through. 559 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: So it's not as quick as one might see it. 560 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, no, it's it's not. It's 561 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: not it's not even quick. In the morgue when you're 562 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: working in. 563 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: Week, you have all the prepared stuff, everything. 564 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: Completely prepared, and it's something that's very painstaking. And again 565 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: I go back to this idea, where does your mind 566 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: have to be if you're not working in say like 567 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: a Morgan. I hate to compare to this, but somebody 568 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: that's comfortable in the slaughtering of animals, and you know, 569 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: you hear all these tropes that are on these TV 570 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: shows and everything, Well, I think we're looking for somebody 571 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: that's been you know, this worked in a slaughterhouse or 572 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: it's a butcher or a you know. They kept saying 573 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: all of that about act the ripper for years, you know, 574 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: and talking about skill. But there's some truth in that, 575 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: because you have to feel comfortable within that environment, within 576 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: the volume of blood that you have to deal with, 577 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: and the smells and those things that you don't anticipate 578 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: that you're going to encounter along the way. 579 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: Right, But not everybody acts like Taylorship business. We're in 580 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 2: the heat of the moment on drugs, having sex, chains 581 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: and everything else. Some people actually go into this with 582 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 2: a game plan, such as the case of Joel guide Junior. 583 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: He's a twenty eight year old man who did not 584 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: support himself. His mother and father got tired of it. 585 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 2: They were just done with taking care of their alt 586 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: son and they were going to cut him off, yes, 587 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 2: And so he decides they live in Tennessee. He's a 588 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 2: student still, yeah, okay, yeah, at LSU. And you know 589 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 2: he was thinking about it. You're twenty eight, you're living 590 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 2: off mom and dad. You don't have really a job 591 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 2: or anything else. You're just going to stay in school 592 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 2: enough to claim you're a student. Well, he decides, now 593 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 2: that he knows they're going to cut him off, to 594 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 2: go back home and visit. And during his visit he 595 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: has a plan. And the end result was nothing less 596 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 2: than one of the most disgusting things I've ever had 597 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 2: to cover or I've ever had to read from the 598 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 2: Sheriff's department. To give you an idea, I wrote the 599 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 2: quote down because it was referred to as a diabolical 600 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: stew of human remains. And he did it to his 601 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 2: own parents, to his mom and dad. That's what Joel 602 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 2: Guy Junior ended up with. But Joe, he starts off mad, Yes, 603 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 2: parents are off. I can get five hundred thousand dollars 604 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 2: for them if they're missing, and his goal is to 605 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 2: make them disappear. How do you come into this after 606 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 2: basically it's a welfare check, which, by the way, that 607 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 2: was the one commonality through a number of these dismemberment cases. 608 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 2: I didn't see him around for a while. Better call 609 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 2: the police. What happened to Joe? And that's what happened 610 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 2: with his parents, parent friends, haven't seen him in a while. 611 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 2: Where are they? How they doing? 612 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: Yeah? And when the police arrived, I think, well, several 613 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: of the investigators from Mark the fact that this they 614 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: in all of their years, they had never encountered anything 615 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: like this. And I think probably the most ghastly thing 616 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: is when they go into the kitchen. 617 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 2: Is to be clear, he stabbed them, He cut them 618 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 2: up right, I'm sorry. 619 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: He's already facilitating this with an edge weapon and he 620 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: stabs Dad multiple times, and he's actually written out a 621 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: game plan for this. 622 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:02,719 Speaker 2: I was going to ask you, how do you know 623 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: when it says they stabbed him forty two times or 624 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 2: more in this particular case, the reason he was stabbing 625 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 2: them when he killed them and he hurt himself and 626 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 2: Joel Guy Junior during the course of this had cut 627 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 2: himself and he actually had to leave to bandage it 628 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 2: because he was bleeding too much. While he was gone, 629 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: That's when the police came in to do the well 630 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: being check, and that's how they found all of this. 631 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 2: If you can imagine, he didn't think he was gonna 632 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 2: get caught. He was in the middle of doing this, 633 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: which is brew and they came into it. So that's 634 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 2: why they found the list. 635 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they did. And he he had this planned 636 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: out to the point where he included information like, Okay, 637 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: I have to get rid of him, then I have 638 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: to get rid of her. These are the instruments that 639 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: I need. And oh, by the way, I stand to 640 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: collect five hundred thousand dollars in insurance money. And this 641 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: is all included. And after the fact, you know, you've 642 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: you've got these police that are showing up and at 643 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: this gruesome scene. And again this goes back to Okay, 644 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: he's planned all of this out. He's going to do 645 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: it within the containment of his house, which is something 646 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: I think that it's important to remember in this case, 647 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: and certainly as they move forward with Gilgo beginning to 648 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: think about you need privacy, you need a location where 649 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: you can you know, where you're away from prying eyes, 650 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: if you will, within this environment. And so in that 651 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: moment in time, he leaves his mother's head on the 652 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: stove in a pot boiling, and he's going to render 653 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 1: down her remains as best he can here. You know, 654 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: one of the big issues with this, though, is that 655 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: there's blood evidence everywhere. Again, this goes back to I 656 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: don't think a lot of people really anticipate how much 657 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: trace and blood evidence is going to be left behind 658 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: when you begin to talk about the dismemberment of the body, 659 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,240 Speaker 1: if you're using any kind of saw, for instance, where 660 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: you're where it's highly agitating. Now, I'll give you a 661 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: idea of going back to the morgue when we use 662 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: bone saws. In the Morgue, there is this and I 663 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: don't know if you can. I'll give you an idea 664 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 1: so that you can kind of get this in your mind. 665 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: Have you ever taken talcum powder and put it in 666 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,439 Speaker 1: your hand and blown it like this and you see 667 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: how it floats in the air and kind of descends. 668 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: Now and you can actually smell it, you know what 669 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: I'm talking about? The smell of talcum powder. Bone dust 670 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: is much that way, even with the agitating saws. Now 671 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: they have vacuums on these things now that will catch it. 672 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: But for years and years we had bone saw bone 673 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: dust that would just be floating in the air, you know, 674 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: in the morgue as we were working these cases. That's 675 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: going to come up too, because as if you're using 676 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: a hogh speed tool, you'll leave behind any kind of 677 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: deposition of bone dust. You'll have these little pockets. It 678 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: almost looks like small bits of sawdust. 679 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 2: Do you ever inhale any of that? 680 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,399 Speaker 1: Yes? I did, yeah, yeah, And even if you wear 681 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: a mask, you're still going to inhale it. And so 682 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: you would have the smell of bone dust in your 683 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: in your passages, and so you could it inhabits you 684 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: know what you do in that environment. Today, it's a 685 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: little bit different. Some people, well some people don't. You know. 686 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: Back when I first started, you had I still worked 687 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: with pathologists many years ago. There was one old pathologist 688 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: that never wore gloves in the morgue, and he refused 689 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: to wear a mask. He would strip down to his 690 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: T shirt, roll his pants up, and he would wear 691 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: a white apron. 692 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 2: We're doing this show, I feel like I. 693 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,240 Speaker 1: Just said, well, he said that it decreased gloves, decreased 694 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: his tactile ability to be able to appreciate things, and 695 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: he said, and there's always soap so and he never 696 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: trimmed his nails, which really bothered me too. So but 697 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: at any rate, you have this environment in which these 698 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: people are in dwelling, and they're in this environment for 699 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: the very first time, and they're exposed to all of this, 700 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: and it's almost like they have so much that they're 701 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: having to deal with at this moment. And when we're 702 00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: talking about Joel Guy, you're not just talking about I 703 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: don't mean to be dismissive when I say that, but 704 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: you're talking about your mom and dad, And so how 705 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: do you get past that psychologically as you're taking apart 706 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: their body? That comes back to this issue of anger. 707 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: We see this with sharp force injuries. He stabbed his 708 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: parents multiple times. One was over thirty, one was over forty. 709 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: So he's already got this indwelling anger. But if you're 710 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: so pumped up on adrenaline while you're doing that, how 711 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: are you going to continue this on through as you're 712 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: attempting to take apart the body and mistakes are made, 713 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: and certainly in his case he left blood everywhere. 714 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,280 Speaker 2: Well because they interrupted him in process. He had planned 715 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 2: on having this time to himself to be able to 716 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,280 Speaker 2: go through his whole process that he had mapped out. 717 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 2: But going back to the stab wounds, how important is 718 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,399 Speaker 2: it for you to know, I'm gonna be honest, whether 719 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 2: it's twenty two or forty two, the man's dead. From 720 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 2: a forensic standpoint, how important is it to you to 721 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 2: have the whole file completed that you know how many 722 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 2: times he was stabbed? 723 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: Well, what's important I think with sequencing of stab wounds 724 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: is first off, and there's there's no when you read 725 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: autopsy reports, which you know you see a lot when 726 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,760 Speaker 1: they're coming when cases are coming to trial, the medical 727 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: examiner of the pathologists, when they're reading these things out 728 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: will say, Okay, I've got forty sab wounds, okay, and 729 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to list them A through Z or whatever 730 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: it is. It's double Z sometimes, I mean I've seen 731 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,320 Speaker 1: triple Z. You've got so many injuries. This in no 732 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 1: way indicates sequencing. There is one sequence that we can 733 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,280 Speaker 1: be aware of, though. We can tell a difference between 734 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: what is anti mortem before death and what is post mortem. 735 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,879 Speaker 1: And when you're talking about with anti mortem when an 736 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: individual is being attacked, you know, I'm thinking like, for instance, 737 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: like I don't know, Ellen Greenberg, you begin to think 738 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: about that in those wound tracks, where you appreciating hemorrhage 739 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: in that environment, and at what point time does hemorrhy 740 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: start or stop? Also, what organ systems are impacted? Are 741 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: you going directly into the heart, are you striking a 742 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: major vessel in the neck? Any of these issues are 743 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: in the back of the head. You know, if you're 744 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: striking back here with an edged weapon, is there a 745 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: focal area of hemorrhage back there? Because if there is 746 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: hemorrhage in dwelling, that means that the person was alive 747 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: at this time. So you know, you hear us talk 748 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: about a lot in true crime. You hear us talking. 749 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 1: We use the term overkill. And that's important to us 750 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,879 Speaker 1: because I think that if you're in your rational mind, 751 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,240 Speaker 1: you can understand, Okay, I've stabbed them this many times, 752 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: this is enough, I'm going to carry it on to 753 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: the nth degree. And all the while that this attack 754 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: is going on, you're transforming more and more evidence onto 755 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: yourself as the perpetrator, blood evidence, those sorts of things. 756 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: And Joel Guy's case, he injured himself, so now he's 757 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: depositing evidence perhaps on these remains of his parents as 758 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: he's trying to get rid of them. 759 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 2: Have you ever seen somebody that tried to use sometimes 760 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 2: of an acid mixture to melt the body down to 761 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 2: dissolve them? 762 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: Only on rare occasions have I seen that where the 763 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: rendering takes place. I've seen far more people that have 764 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,560 Speaker 1: attempted to render down bodies through heat. 765 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 2: In the TV show Breaking Bad, they would Walter White 766 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 2: had this whatever elixir they could put into a light 767 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,439 Speaker 2: plastic drum and drop the body in there. You guys 768 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 2: saw that and dissolve. But in this case, he's doing 769 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 2: it on the stove. He's got plastic tubs around. I 770 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 2: don't know what kind of acid concoction he made. But 771 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,320 Speaker 2: could a body be rendered down into a liquefied form 772 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 2: that could just be poured out in the river and 773 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 2: there'd be no You wouldn't have any proof they ever existed. 774 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose that it could. But rendering generally is 775 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: not so much a where it's an application of chemicals. 776 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 1: Like I had stated, in my experience, most of the 777 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,240 Speaker 1: rendering takes place in heat. And this is a little 778 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 1: known fact. I don't know. Maybe some of you guys 779 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: in audience are where it. When going back to my 780 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: example of the head, when we have remains and the 781 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist is trying to examine the bone. One of 782 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: the problems that you encounter with this is you can't 783 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: appreciate the bone because you still have soft tissue or 784 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: where does the soft tissue go. You don't want to 785 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: do anything to the underlying bone that it's going to 786 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: damage it or compromise any kind of trace evidence that's 787 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: on there, whether it is a tool strike, a bullet hole, 788 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: or any kind of fiber that might well not fiber 789 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: that wouldn't make sense. But let me just cut to 790 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,839 Speaker 1: the chase here. We've got a very limited time. They 791 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: will actually take apart the body, disarticulate the body, and 792 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: it's placed into it looks like a cauldron. We actually 793 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: had these at the Emmy in Atlanta, and it almost 794 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: like a crockpot. And what happens is that it begins 795 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: to render the body down the soft tissue so it 796 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,799 Speaker 1: falls away from the bone. It's very low heat, and 797 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:04,879 Speaker 1: the bones settle to the bottom. You get this kind 798 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: of beige froth that comes up at the top. You 799 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: can take out the bones. At this point time and 800 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: really truly appreciate them in that context. And there's other 801 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: methodologies that I won't go into that forensic anthropologists have 802 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: used for years and years to remove soft tissue, but 803 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 1: most of the time it's going to involve heat. Because 804 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:29,920 Speaker 1: everybody has access to heat. Most people don't understand what 805 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: is necessary from a chemistry standpoint in order to facilitate 806 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 1: what they're trying to do, and it's very frustrating and 807 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: they could wind up harming themselves as well. Thank you 808 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: guys for joining us today. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 809 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: this is body Bags from Orlando Crime Con twenty twenty three.