1 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm 2 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: Jess Cossavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for 3 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: the Devil the Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series 4 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: explored the story of Robert Shin, the La based Chakina 5 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: Church and seven M Films. Shin founded Chakina Church over 6 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: two decades ago before establishing seven M Films and is 7 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior. 8 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 2: And I'm Clia Gray, former member of Chakina Church and 9 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 2: seven M Films. In this episode, we were joined by 10 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 2: our producers Leo, Aaron and Sophie for a behind the 11 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 2: scenes look at the making of the podcast and its 12 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 2: exploration of the ongoing impact of Robert Shin, the La 13 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 2: based Chakina Church in seven M Films. The team is 14 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 2: going to discuss the challenges of reaching out to victims, 15 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: the emotional discoveries made during production, and the ethical considerations 16 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: of handling such sensitive stories, and the friends we made 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: along the way. 18 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: We also reflect on the broader patterns of abuse and 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: cult like groups such as Shin Yun and high controlled 20 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: acting teachers, and shared insights on how these communities can 21 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: be held accountable. Listen in for an honest conversation about 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: the evolution of the series, the personal revelations along the way, 23 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: and what's next for the podcast and now our conversation. 24 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: So first in the hot seat, we have executive producer 25 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: Aaron Berlin's Khalia how to do the credits? Because I 26 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: can't pronounce your last name? Can you share your last 27 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: name with us? 28 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 3: Yes? 29 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 4: For those listening intently, Aaron Berlason and I am the 30 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 4: executive producer. I also produce the episodes. I work with 31 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 4: you both along with Leo and Sophie, to construct the episodes, 32 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 4: to reach out to guests, to give pre interviews to 33 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 4: those guests where I will talk to them about their 34 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 4: experience either with Charkina or another cult like group high 35 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 4: control group that they may have been a part of, 36 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 4: and just find the talking points that the guests feel 37 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 4: comfortable with that speak to our thematic values here on 38 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 4: the podcast as well. And you know, we always set 39 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 4: the intention of this being an opportunity for guests to decompress, 40 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 4: give them a platform to tell their story. But what 41 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 4: has been truly amazing has been seeing you to just 42 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 4: grow and prosper as host and you know, to see 43 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 4: your personalities shine through and to be able to collaborate 44 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 4: with you both to bring these episodes to life. So 45 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,559 Speaker 4: thank you for being dope post. 46 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: Well thanks Saren. I will say this is so out 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: of my comfort zone being on this side, sharing my voice. 48 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: Everything's always behind the scenes, and so I think you 49 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,519 Speaker 1: guys have just such a great job at making me 50 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: feel comfortable. Obviously would never have done this without you, Khalia, 51 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: and that comfort that is just created in this room 52 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: not about me, but thank you guys for allowing me 53 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: to have a comfortable space as well to be able 54 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: to do this, because it's really nerve wracking on a 55 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: week to week basis. 56 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 4: Absolutely, And you've had an interesting journey as ep of 57 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 4: the doc series too, and so I know you had 58 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 4: some stories and some experiences that you could also bring 59 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 4: to the series as well. And then seeing Kalia as 60 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 4: a former member and as a part of that doc 61 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 4: series as well, join in the conversation and be able 62 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 4: to empathize with guests has just been amazing. So yeah, 63 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 4: the two of you, Bob and fro ask like a 64 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 4: call you too. It's just been really cool to see 65 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 4: you all. And then yeah, I mean, who knows where 66 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 4: we can go from here. 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: Honestly, I really appreciated the opportunity to continue on, like 68 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: because I don't know after the documentary, having the feeling 69 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: of like is this going to be it? Like is 70 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: this just this? It goes out, it's you know, viral's 71 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: charting for a couple of weeks and then it just 72 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: goes away and nobody talks about it ever. Again, I 73 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: think I had that feeling after the documentary, so going 74 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 2: in to forgive me for I have followed it helped 75 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 2: like just make it mean more and like, I'm like, 76 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: oh no, we could still do more. We could still 77 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 2: keep the story alive because there's still people who are 78 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: part of Chicina and seven M and still being affected 79 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: by this group today. So I'm like, I so appreciate 80 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: being able to go further and deeper on my end 81 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: having gone through it and now being able to have 82 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: this platform and do more. 83 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I think for me from the producing side 84 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: of things, there was so much that's left out of 85 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: the documentary, and obviously for reasons, because it needs to 86 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: be a story that an audience being introduced to this 87 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: for the first time can follow, But there was so 88 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: much that was on the cutting room floor, and that 89 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: was hard for us in the edit to say what 90 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: goes and what doesn't. I mean, these are people's experiences 91 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: and that's a hard decision. And so to be able 92 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: to do this and to get more in the weeds 93 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: and understand the stories and how some of that all 94 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: played out, I think was important. But also to get 95 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: people that weren't featured in the documentary that sharing their stories. 96 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: I go back and I was reflecting a lot on 97 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: Andrew's episode and how it was so refreshing to have 98 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: the perspective of a male that was in the church 99 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: at that time when that split happened. And like I 100 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: was just talking about how he had said the next 101 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: day we all went back to the flowers, we all 102 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: had to go to work. It didn't even cross my 103 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: mind that they would all go back to work the 104 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 1: next day and they're in the same space after this 105 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: huge event just happened. Yeah, and then just hearing how 106 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: supportive he was and like that process of kind of 107 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: deprogramming for himself and really processing what actually had just happened. 108 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: I just I go through all the people that had 109 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: come through this podcast and just appreciating the more end 110 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: look of their experience and the vulnerability it took for 111 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: them to share it. 112 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, this podcast all works because the people who were 113 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 4: at the center of you know, Chicuina and this high 114 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 4: control group all say yes, say yes to being a 115 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 4: part of the show, being on this series to give 116 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 4: themselves a platform to decompress, and also just being open 117 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 4: to the questions that we had and sharing their story 118 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 4: in the hopes of hopefully, you know, helping others who 119 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 4: might be in similar situations. And so the show doesn't 120 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 4: work without our courageous and brave guest and so yeah, 121 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 4: I just want to say thank you to all of 122 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 4: them for being open, for jumping on the phone call, 123 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 4: you know, our long phone call conversations where they're recounting 124 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 4: traumatic experiences and they're talking about things that they haven't 125 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 4: talked about in a while, and doing it to a 126 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 4: complete stranger like myself, and you know, just saying yes 127 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 4: and coming on the podcast and sharing their story. So 128 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 4: thank you once again to all the guests who've come 129 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 4: on Erin. 130 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 2: I did want to say I have gotten like feedback 131 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 2: and responses to people who've done pre interviews with you, 132 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 2: and they just really enjoy like your personality and how 133 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 2: easy you are to talk to, and like the way 134 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: that you can navigate those conversations. I just want to say, kudos, 135 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: you do amazing at that. Like people feel really like 136 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: comfortable to share their story, so we can't even know 137 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 2: what talking points to hit. 138 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's all about establishing that energy, you know, and 139 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 4: hopefully in the most gentle way, disarming them of any 140 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 4: sort of preconceived notions or fears or anxieties that they 141 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 4: may have. Yeah, and I approach that interview just like 142 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 4: I'm doing the podcast myself, you know, and wanting to 143 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 4: know a little bit about the backstory and their journey 144 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 4: and just providing them with the space. And because if 145 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 4: I'll tell you right now, the pre interview doesn't go well, 146 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 4: that doesn't bolt too well for the podcast right recording. 147 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 4: So I just want to get in there and establish 148 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 4: that energy and show radical empathy. I think often that's missing, 149 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 4: and what we're trying to do is just like, oh wow, 150 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 4: I may have not experienced it firsthand, but I really 151 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 4: do feel for you. My heart is with you for 152 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 4: what you've gone. Because I'm an impath, so I'm filling 153 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 4: all the fills and taking on that emotional energy and 154 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 4: those moments and yeah, whether it's an interview with someone 155 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 4: like Angela who's like telling us about, you know, her 156 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 4: current situation with be Dash and her son and or 157 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 4: you know, or yeah, like you mentioned Andrew and how 158 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 4: they're all picking up the pieces from this one part 159 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 4: of their life and they're still living with these experiences 160 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 4: but still trying to push through and have the best 161 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 4: lives that they can have. And so just trying to 162 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 4: be open and present for all these pre interviews was 163 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 4: really necessary for me, and. 164 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 1: I appreciate it because through the process of the documentary, 165 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: I've established some of the relationships with the people that 166 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: were on the podcast and others that I hadn't spoken with. 167 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: And so for me, knowing how sensitive that process is, 168 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: of the initial contact, it was hard to relinquish that 169 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: to somebody else and another producer. But being able to 170 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: do that and to trust that that was in good hands, 171 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: that was something that we had to established in the 172 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: beginning before we even got started. Is it's not easy. 173 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: You can't earn trust and be like, oh, here you go. 174 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: You take it like, that's just not how we work 175 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: over here. It's not how we run things. It's not 176 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: who I am, But I'm curious going into it, Like 177 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: right in the beginning when you're making the first few 178 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: pre phone calls, like what was the biggest challenge or 179 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: did you find yourself nervous going into any of these conversations. 180 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 4: You know, I have a background in community organizing. I 181 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 4: used to be a community organizer in south central Los 182 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 4: Angeles at community coalition, where you getting members involved from 183 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 4: the community and for certain actions and demonstrations around the neighborhood. 184 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 4: But even going back before that, I used to be 185 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 4: like a peer counselor and like junior high in college 186 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 4: even and so I have a lot of experience with 187 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 4: talking to well in that case, it was like fellow 188 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 4: students about their grades and what they were going through 189 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 4: in class and how I could help them and be 190 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 4: a support mechanism for them. And so in a weird way, 191 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 4: I just drew back to those experiences and just put 192 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 4: myself in their shoes and so just giving them a 193 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 4: little bit of background about myself, being transparent about how 194 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 4: I came into the project as someone who was involved 195 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 4: with other shows but then got connected to you all 196 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 4: and my curiosity, but also my interests in the story. 197 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 4: I knew about Hit Kinda because I watched a documentary, 198 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 4: but my wife actually worked on the series, which you 199 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 4: are as well, so I had an intimate knowledge of 200 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 4: what you all were doing in the narrative that you 201 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 4: all were creating and building and helping these people tell 202 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 4: their stories and give themselves a platform, and that challenges 203 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 4: you all experienced trying to bring this series to life. 204 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 4: And then the breakthrough that we had when it was 205 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 4: on Netflix and it premiered and it was number one 206 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 4: on Netflix for eleven days in a row, which is 207 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,839 Speaker 4: just crazy. So we all knew that there was more 208 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 4: to this because I know you all had shot so much, 209 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 4: you had done so many more interviews that had to 210 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 4: get cut down for three episode docs, and so we 211 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 4: all knew there was more to be done. And so 212 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 4: for me, it was just carrying that experience of my 213 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 4: past life as a pure counselor and community organizer and 214 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 4: saying like, Hey, where else can we go with this story? 215 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 4: And then just really being inspired to give these people 216 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 4: just more of a platform to tell their story. Yeah, 217 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 4: and have a conversation. 218 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 2: After the break we continue our conversation. This is forgive 219 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 2: me for I have followed. We'll be right back. 220 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now 221 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: back to our conversation. Well, taking it back, So on 222 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: those eleven days you said that your wife worked on 223 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: the show. Big shout out to Liz. She's a huge 224 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: reason why this happened, honestly, so without going too deep, 225 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: she was our executive over at Netflix. At our holiday party, 226 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: Aaron was just attending and he was chatting and mentioned 227 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: that he'd been working on the day Show podcast, and 228 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: you know, I was like, oh, we have a podcast division. 229 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: Note a podcast was not even on the radar for 230 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: this particular series. And then our producer, Leo Klem, who 231 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: is also the head of WV sound light Bulb, went 232 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: off and thought, perhaps there's this opportunity for us to 233 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: continue the story. And when he first brought it up 234 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: to me, I have to say, because yes, exciting eleven 235 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: days on Netflix. I go back and every time I 236 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: hear that, I go back to all the emotion and 237 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: anxiety that I had because you can reflect on it now, 238 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: but like these are people's real lives, like you experienced that, 239 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: and I was so emotional and I was so stressed 240 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: of how it was going to be received, not for 241 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: myself but for you guys at the end of the day, 242 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: like I can move on to another project. You are 243 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: exposing your most vulnerable time life in front of millions 244 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: of people, and so it was not an easy decision. 245 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: So when Leo had kind of thought about the continuation, 246 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: is like, is there this opportunity, I was like immediately. 247 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 3: Like, don't give me too much credit. 248 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: No, I just I couldn't. I couldn't process it initially, 249 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't, I don't know. And 250 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: as we were kind of talking through it a little bit, 251 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: I was like, the only way that I would do 252 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: it is if there was someone that had experienced it 253 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: that can help navigate that. And as we were brainstorming, 254 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: it was kind of a no brainer. We're like, Khalia 255 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: would be perfect for this, And Leo, can you take 256 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: us back to the beginning of what the heck? How 257 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: did you what made you want to. 258 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 2: Do this picture this? 259 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 3: I have an awful memory, so I'm going to do 260 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 3: my best, but I do remember having conversations with you 261 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 3: Jess about Kalia specifically, and I remember when I watched 262 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 3: the documentary, I felt like Khalia stood out for me 263 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 3: because you really painted the picture in a way more 264 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 3: vibrant way where it wasn't necessarily related to one individual. 265 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 3: I felt like you helped create the larger image of 266 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 3: what she kind of looked like. And I also thought 267 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 3: your delivery was chef's kiss. So like, as a viewer 268 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 3: enjoying the documentary, I was like, Oh, she's making this 269 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 3: makes sense even more. You know, everyone's spelling their hearts out, 270 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 3: but I feel like they kept referring back to you 271 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 3: for a reason. So when Jess brought up you, I 272 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 3: was like, let's go, let's do this. And I mean 273 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 3: when the first time we all got on a call together, 274 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 3: I was like, I think this chemistry is going to work. 275 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 3: And I remember maybe three or four episodes in, I 276 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 3: was just like, this is the perfect fit. And you know, 277 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 3: between Aaron, Sophie and myself, I felt like the team 278 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 3: really understood the assignment working alongside both of you, and 279 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 3: it's just been a really great experience. 280 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: So I've been working with Leo for thirteen years now, 281 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: but before that, Leo is also one of my best friends, 282 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: so before we even started to work together, so I 283 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: know I can trust him, like no matter what. And 284 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: when I was telling him about the sensitivity of what 285 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: we were getting into, having just gone through it for 286 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: the last two years of my life, I would not 287 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: have done this or wanted to do this with anybody else. 288 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: And so when we all got on the phone with you, Kahalia, 289 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: it was like making sure that you were comfortable, because 290 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: I know him, I know what his intentions are, but 291 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: making sure you were comfortable. I'm curious of what your 292 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: first impression of like when this all came about. Like 293 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: here we are being like, hey, girl, you want to 294 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: host a podcast? You're like, what was that like? Getting 295 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: that call? 296 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, I know I was excited, 297 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 2: but I think when I really felt it was when 298 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: the few people that I had around so like Kevin 299 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: close friend and I mentioned like, hey, they approached me 300 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: about doing a podcast with this, And it was the 301 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 2: reactions of like the people closest to me and being 302 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: like that is exactly perfect for you. That is exactly 303 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 2: what you need to do, because like I, you know, 304 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: you are a really great conversation and I could totally 305 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: see you in this realm And it was never something 306 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 2: that I ever thought like to do, like I was 307 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: never like, oh, I would love to host a podcast, 308 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: But after like being told like the people who know 309 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: me the deepest are like, no, that's perfect for you. 310 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: And then sitting in the chair for the first time, 311 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 2: going on the mic for the first time, and then 312 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: doing it repeatedly, I was like, no, this feels great, 313 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: Like this does feel like something that's such. 314 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: A natural, and like, I like, your ears must be 315 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: ringing all the time, because I'm like Khalia is like 316 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: so freaking smart, You're so incredibly well spoken, you are sensitive, 317 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: you are mindful, You're a good listener, and it's perfect 318 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: for you are a perfect podcast host. And obviously I 319 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: know the subject matter is very like close to home. 320 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: But being able to take that experience that you went 321 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: through and be able to like open it up for 322 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: other people to have a safe space to share. Is 323 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: that kind of all came together because of the conversations 324 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: that we were having early on as we were trying 325 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: to figure out what this thing looked like, like what 326 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: is the right approach? 327 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 3: And I just want to add that I am constantly 328 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 3: wanting to make sure everyone's safe, and I think all 329 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 3: five of us have those exact same intentions. I think 330 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 3: at times I'm a little overly careful, Like for example, 331 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 3: Aaron Sun pre interviews and we have a discussion afterwards, 332 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 3: and there's been a couple of times where we decided 333 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 3: not to move forward with the interview because we didn't 334 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 3: feel like we had enough information to back the story up. 335 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 3: And I think we're all in agreeance on that. But yeah, 336 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 3: I'm just like fine tooth comb on everything. 337 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: I think also just to add on that, it's not 338 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: out of the lack of believing a person, It's just 339 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: that we do have a responsibility. With Chicaina. We have 340 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: so many people that can coroborate a story that we 341 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,239 Speaker 1: know that you know, it has happened and it's their 342 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: own personal experience. But when we started to branch out 343 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: into other groups, we just don't have the time to 344 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: do a deep dive into instigating something with this particular format. 345 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: Maybe because I had the experience through the dock of 346 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: like you know, we had a really extensive review on 347 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: every single thing that we did that we were making 348 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: sure that we were doing the proper due diligence. And 349 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,239 Speaker 1: again I go back, we had two years and like 350 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: months and months and months and months of post people 351 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: reviewing it and making sure that like this can be coroborated. 352 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: Is there evidence, like where's all that documentation that maybe 353 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: you didn't even see in the documentary? Like we made 354 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: sure that we were checking that we were in a 355 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: safe space. 356 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 357 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: When we returned the conclusion to our conversation with Leo, 358 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: Sophie and Aaron, this is forgive Me for I have followed. 359 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive Me for I have followed. Here's 360 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: the conclusion of our conversation, Sophie. So I really appreciate 361 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 2: all of the work that you have put in on 362 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 2: this as well. What was it like to craft the 363 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: episodes alongside Leo and Aaron for this series. 364 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think for our other shows like 365 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 5: Date My, abilit To First and More Better, the focus 366 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 5: was on how to make things fun or making something 367 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 5: a little salacious with Date My ably To First. So 368 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 5: turning to Forgive Me was a shift, and it required 369 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 5: a different type of commitment to a different type of 370 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 5: craft and the different type of commitment to research, and 371 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 5: a different type of commitment to what we've been talking 372 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 5: about around the importance of folks healing and the importance 373 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 5: of folks processing. Yeah, and how to craft a show 374 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 5: around that processing that was both honoring the processing and 375 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 5: also like making a good show. And I think we 376 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 5: really found that balance with our incredible host. I know 377 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 5: that this, like this episode is kind of like shout 378 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 5: out to you, shout out to you, like love y'all, 379 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 5: But I really think that the framework was justs and 380 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 5: Khala like holding the container and we got to like 381 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 5: do the research and the questions that filled in that container. 382 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 383 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 4: I just want to speak to Sophie because she really 384 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 4: was such a critical piece of this function overall, just 385 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 4: keeping us organized, keeping the ball rolling for you know, 386 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 4: who's next on tap to be interview perspective, guests, perspective, 387 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 4: new cults and groups, you know, especially as we got 388 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 4: into the second half of the season, you know, identifying 389 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 4: you know, different cult like groups and high control environments 390 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 4: and whatnot, and really bringing her, you know, POV to 391 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,959 Speaker 4: the table was really cool to see and observe and 392 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 4: to work with her for the first time. It was 393 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 4: just really really super dope. So it just was a 394 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 4: cool team, you know. 395 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, overall, I also want to thank Sophie for being 396 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: my speed what is. 397 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 2: The word she she'll stop you. 398 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, referee, So I, as mentioned, out of my comfort zone, 399 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: I would get super nervous. And I'm just thankful for you, 400 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: Sophie for always making sure that you kept me calm 401 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: and said, girl slowing down because I was just quick, quick, quick, quick, 402 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: quick to get through it. Like slow it down, You're 403 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: gonna be okay. So just also good energies all around. 404 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 3: Piggybacking off what Aaron said, Sophia was really important when 405 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 3: we made the decision to like focus on these individual 406 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 3: high control groups, and as Aaron said, she was really 407 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 3: like the one finding these groups and doing the research. 408 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 3: And that was really interesting territory for us because we 409 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 3: wanted to focus on Chicaina, but only certain amount people 410 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 3: wanted to come forward within the time period of us recording. 411 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 3: So when we decided to open that door, we got 412 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 3: to have a little I don't want to say fun, 413 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 3: because you know it's a serious subject matter, but I 414 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 3: do think there brought some like levity to the conversations, 415 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 3: and Sophie, you kind of helped bring some I don't 416 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 3: want to say humor. 417 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: But like balance. 418 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 3: There's a balance, yeah, where you and Kleiah got to 419 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 3: play with your words a little more be a little 420 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 3: more conversational and and I think that was a nice 421 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 3: touch for the season because we were dealing with such 422 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 3: heavy interviews and heavy topics that we got to focus 423 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 3: on things outside but still bring it back to clear 424 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 3: your experience and the experiences we've profiled on the podcast. 425 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: So I have a question for you guys. Was there 426 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 2: a specific moment or discovery that made you realize the 427 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 2: importance of this podcast and addressing issues of cult, light 428 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 2: control and abuse. 429 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 4: I think for myself, since I was so involved with 430 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 4: the pre interviews, I think it's every pre interview that 431 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 4: I do. It's a reminder of the importance of this work. 432 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 4: When you get on the phone with someone and you're 433 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 4: talking through what could be traumatic experiences with them, and 434 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 4: you see that person striving to not let that experience 435 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 4: define them and move forward in their lives and also 436 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 4: be transparent about that story. It kind of inspires me 437 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 4: in a way and also informs me that I think 438 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 4: either Lacey or Angela mentioned this an interview we did 439 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 4: a little while back, that a high control group doesn't 440 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 4: have to be a church, it doesn't have to be 441 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 4: a cult group, it doesn't have to be a large 442 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 4: environment It could be relationships really, you know, it can 443 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 4: be dynamics. Really, it can be a job that you 444 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 4: feel like prisoner too, And so there's an energy involved 445 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 4: that we have to continue to identify and see that. 446 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 4: It's also very illuminating to me that we're dealing in 447 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 4: today's time that colts just don't come knock them on 448 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 4: your door and like, hey, we're a cult, you know, 449 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 4: It's like no, they're high control groups for a reason, 450 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 4: and the methods and practices that they take on are 451 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 4: the dangers, are the things that kind of can be 452 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 4: difficult for people. 453 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: Sophie, was there a particular moment for you. 454 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 5: It's fresh in the mind. I was listening to the 455 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 5: Melanie Lee episode where she talks about not even knowing 456 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,239 Speaker 5: what she wanted to order for her coffee order, like 457 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 5: not even you know, she says it in really awesome 458 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 5: why she's like, well what do I Is the vanilla 459 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 5: latte better? And that really resonated with me because there 460 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 5: are people in my life that have that sort of 461 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 5: like indecision paralysis, and a lot of it stems from trauma, 462 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 5: and a lot of it stems from high controlled situations 463 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 5: and relationships, and so to hear Melanie say those exact 464 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 5: words what I've like stood next to someone who's like, 465 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 5: I don't know, I don't know, like what iream flavor 466 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 5: is better, and how that impacts people and how they 467 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 5: have to spend the rest of their life on doing 468 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 5: those like tendrils of control and like, So I think 469 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 5: that moment really stuck with me, and I so appreciated 470 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 5: the Melanielee episode and. 471 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: How open she was with us. 472 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 3: Absolutely for me, I think that's something that continuously kept 473 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,719 Speaker 3: coming up, was when the victim becomes a perpetrator. We 474 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 3: saw that in many episodes, and I think most recently 475 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 3: Priscilla had talked about it abused becomes the abuser, And 476 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 3: that was really interesting because Aaron, you mentioned how empathetic 477 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 3: you are. I live with empathy every day to a fault, 478 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 3: and it's so hard for me to wrap my head 479 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 3: around that concept. But hearing it repeated over and over 480 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 3: was really enlightening because it's you know, hurt people, hurt people, 481 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 3: and there's still a victim, you know, yea. So it's 482 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 3: like it makes me think of people and death, bro, Like, 483 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 3: I still have empathy for them because they're human beings, 484 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 3: even if they did something unforgivable, So it's a really 485 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 3: interesting thing to toy with. On top of that, being 486 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 3: in a high control group, being manipulated, all these things. 487 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just having a similar conversation last night 488 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 2: too about you know, the victim becoming the perpetrator, the 489 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 2: cycle of abuse, and how like it is hard to 490 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 2: break that cycle, like, like you said, hurt people, hurt people, 491 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 2: And I think for me, it's like I definitely come 492 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 2: from a place of understanding, like, oh, that's the read 493 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: Like you know, a lot of people want to know, 494 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 2: like why, especially if it's like a heinous crime or 495 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 2: like how could they do something like this? Like I'll 496 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 2: get my why. I'm like, oh, that's a really sad story. 497 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 2: It gives me understanding, But that doesn't absolve you from 498 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 2: accountability for your actions absolutely, Like it could be a reason, sure, 499 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 2: but not an excuse, you know. So I'm like, you're 500 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: still accountable for your actions, but at least there's like 501 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 2: I understand where it comes from. Yeah, I think at 502 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: least for people who have that story, I can at 503 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 2: least like at least I could latch onto that versus 504 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 2: like there was just no rhyme or reason like it's 505 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 2: just so left field. I think that's when it's harder 506 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: for me to be like, oh yeah, I don't understand the. 507 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: Why I do. Want to just take a second to 508 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: acknowledge all the people that took time out of their 509 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: days were allowing themselves to be open and vulnerable with 510 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: us on this season. Big shout out to Marilyn Aubrey, Leah, Angela, 511 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: Melanie Welking, doctor Gideon, Amanda are Amazing, Director, Derek Kevin, 512 00:26:54,760 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: Andrew Sarah, Katie Joy, both of the Hayleys, Mgdally of 513 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: Angela and Lacey, the Lee's sisters Priscilla and Melanie. Thank 514 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 1: you all very very much for your honesty, your vulnerability 515 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: and your experience that you shared. 516 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 4: With us, and speaking personally, to be able to have 517 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 4: got on the phone with each and every one of 518 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 4: those individuals. Just the contrast of experiences that were encapsulated 519 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 4: by these guests, you know, like you have people who 520 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 4: were in Chicina one point zero as we refer to it, 521 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 4: you know, before they branched down and started doing seven 522 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 4: M films. You have people who were dancers. You have 523 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 4: people like a doctor Gideon who is a tremendous resource 524 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 4: and has helped us with just some of our verbiage, 525 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 4: in some of the phrases that we use, and how 526 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 4: we can help people who have been indoctrinated Derek, who 527 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 4: like you mentioned, had the i you know, amazing eye 528 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 4: to capture the story and telling in unique ways. And 529 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 4: then you have someone from a mother's perspective like Medalia, 530 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 4: which if I had to refer to one pre interview, 531 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 4: that was a highly emotional one for me, just because 532 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,719 Speaker 4: you can see how these experiences really affect you know, 533 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 4: parents or partners and whatnot. And so for me, you know, 534 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 4: just humanizing all these people in these voices, in these experiences, 535 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 4: it's just really important. So I'm just super glad and 536 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 4: grateful for the opportunity to do it, and also for 537 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 4: you all to give them a platform to decompress, to 538 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 4: tell their stories, and also to hopefully help those who 539 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 4: might be in a similar situation to seek ways to 540 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 4: get out or to even process what they've experienced. 541 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just really want to thoroughly extend my gratitude because, 542 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: you know, just going over the list of names and 543 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: thinking about the other stories, the other high control groups 544 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 2: that we're starting to tap into as well, and like 545 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 2: it's really creating positive change, and I think that's something 546 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 2: that I want to embody And I feel fulfilled doing 547 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 2: this work, and I feel fulfilled being able to do 548 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 2: this work alongside all of you, and I really appreciate 549 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 2: just what we've built so far, and like, I just 550 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 2: want to congratulate us one season, like what what? Thirty episodes? 551 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 2: And it's so I remember sitting down and feeling when 552 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: we did the first episode and going, WHOA one episode done? 553 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 2: You guys, like, let's see one store, twenty nine more 554 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 2: to go? And now we're here wrapping up season one. 555 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 2: I really am excited for what's in store for all 556 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: of us and what's coming next. And I think we 557 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 2: did some incredible work you guys. Absolutely thank you. 558 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 4: YouTube question for YouTube what interests you possibly for a 559 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 4: season two? 560 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 2: Coming from like the twenty twenty era into now, we're 561 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 2: starting to hear a lot more groups that have like 562 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 2: either high control cult like and social media like influence 563 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 2: within them as well, very similar to what I had 564 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 2: gone through in Chicina. So it feels like there's other 565 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: Chicina or seven M's out there being able to like 566 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 2: do research and find them and shed light on these 567 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 2: potentially harmful groups that are affecting like the entertainment community 568 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 2: as a whole. I think I would would love to 569 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 2: dive into that and like exposing certain groups that might 570 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 2: have been able to hide for a while in the shadows. 571 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's a good point because I think we just 572 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: scratched the surface in this season as we explored some 573 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: of those groups, and when we did one, you realized 574 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: how many more there were. And so taking this time 575 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: to do a little bit more of that research and 576 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: be able to continue to shine light and expose some 577 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: of those groups, but still to the core of it, 578 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: also invite people to share their experience, whether it be 579 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: in a group that we've already spoken about, whether it 580 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: be a group that we might highlight in the future. 581 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: For me, I think that continuation of a space for 582 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: stories to be shared with the hopes of healing. Sometimes 583 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: the hardest thing to do is to say it out 584 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: loud and then to just begin that process of rebuilding, 585 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: healing and deprogramming. So if this could be one of 586 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: those steps on that journey people, that would be kind 587 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: of my. 588 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 4: Hope for Yeah, yes, absolutely, and that's what you know, 589 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 4: we speak to it at the conclusion of each episode 590 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 4: we say, you know, we wish them the best on 591 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 4: their healing journey. It's really about helping each person who 592 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 4: listens to this on their healing journey and helping them. So, yeah, 593 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 4: if we can continue to be in that service, whatever 594 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 4: we do in season two, I just want to hopefully 595 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 4: continue that sense of servitude and whatnot. 596 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: Khalia, I'm just going to start randomly calling you every 597 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: week because it would feel weird as we wrap this 598 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: up not to see your beautiful face at least once 599 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: a week and to say hi, So be prepared for that. 600 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: That's them any way, I'm ready. But again, thank you 601 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: all so much to our incredible producers Aaron Leo, Sophie, 602 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: our partners at Dirty Robber, I Heeart, Mico Thura for 603 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: just supporting us on this journey. Again, all the incredible 604 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: people that came forward. I'm just so thankful and thank 605 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: you Khalia for giving me a safe space and comfortability 606 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: to get out of my comfort zone to do this 607 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: alongside you. 608 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 5: Yeah. 609 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 2: I appreciate we were able to grow together and something 610 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 2: new that we haven't done before, and so I'm looking 611 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 2: forward to doing more. Thank you guys all for tuning 612 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 2: in big shout out to our listeners because you are 613 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 2: also a big part of the reason why we do 614 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 2: this and us being here today. So thank you guys all. 615 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 2: This has been season one of Forgive Me For I 616 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: Have Followed. Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a 617 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: production from wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tora 618 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 2: podcast network, hosted by me Kalia. 619 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: Gray and me Jess Cosibato. 620 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 2: Forgive Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron 621 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 2: Burlson and Sophie Spencer's Zabos. 622 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Kalia Gray, myself, Wilmar Valderrama, Leo 623 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: Clem and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound. 624 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original 625 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 2: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts 626 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 2: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 627 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.