WEBVTT - The Escherian Stairwell 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:15.400 Podcast, Thank you. That is it is, It's true. It's true. 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:23.800 Actually it could happen here listening to the podcast. That 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.200 is more or less the truth we have. We have 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.960 Dreg Robert out of bed at before their crack of 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.880 dawg at a legend forty two am. Um, and we're 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.640 gonna talk about actually something very fun. I've been I've 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:40.360 been wanting to talk about this for a long time 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:42.640 because this is one of actually one of my favorite things. 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.360 Um yeah, yeah, So I'm gonna I'm gonna tell a 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.400 bit of a bit of a little story regarding one 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.520 of my act all time favorite events and topics. So 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:58.840 back in like, there was this a cheesy little online 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:03.160 university sign show made by the Rochester Institute of Technology 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.120 called can You Imagine um. The The idea was to 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:09.080 highlight some of the cool and weird things at the 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.280 university UM in part to promote the Imagine r i 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.600 T Festival, which was like the school's annual like innovation 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:20.199 and creativity festivals think that they put on. So yeah, today, 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:22.840 I want to talk specifically about episode three of the 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:27.280 web series because the contents of which overlap with some 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.319 of my like artistic interests. UM and like just my 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:32.959 love of illusions and paradox and I will kind of 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.200 tie into some topics we are we always discussed in 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.520 the show. So yeah, episode three one of probably probably 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:42.480 the most interesting episode UM. Episode three opens with the 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.440 hosts Kevin and Steph as they like stand awkwardly in 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:50.680 a gloriously dated, you like university film set, like it's 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:52.880 it's it's it's only twenties, it's only twenty thirteen, but 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:55.800 it was like obviously like made in the nineties, like 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:57.400 like like like the set's like it's it's all it's 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:03.360 it's all very dated. What specific Oh, like they're they're 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.520 like they're just like weird, like like weird, like like 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.840 dadd science stuff on the walls. All the hosts of 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.520 wearing like dorky orange T shirts like like over to 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:18.560 over top of their regular clothes. Yeah, yeah, it's it's 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:19.840 it's all. It's all that kind of it's all that 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:22.680 kind of stuff. So like dorkey orange T shirts with 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.520 the letters r I T for Roger CRUs Sister Institute 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.840 of Technology UM. Of course, because everything in this online 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.320 video series is perfect. Kevin is wearing his shirt over 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.519 top of like a button down it's it's, it's, it's great. Um. 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:38.160 The first fifty seconds of the video are taken up 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.919 with like plugging the upcoming r A T Imagine Festival 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.640 with a with a co host Steph beautifully stumbling over 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.200 her lines when she says the events catchphrase, it's where 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.480 the left brain and the right brain collide. And it's great. 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.240 It's it's, it's, it's, it's it's perfect. So after all 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.240 the plugs and the vamping, the hosts get down to 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:01.840 the fun engineer ring feet and they'll be showing us today, 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.680 which is a neat little architectural experiment a part of 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.200 the r I T campus called the A Sharing and 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:12.200 Stairwell UM, of course, named after the impossible staircases depicted 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:16.480 in Dutch artist mc Escher's artwork. So the video cuts 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:19.840 two from the little like sound stage they're filming in 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:24.160 to this boring, white, seemingly typical stairwell. Our host Kevin 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:28.360 ascending a flight of the gray concrete stairs. UM explains 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.400 that what located in Building seven of the campus. The 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:36.080 stairwell was designed by Filipino architect Raphael Nelson Avagando and 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:38.480 was one of the first structures put up when our 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.680 I T moved their campus from downtown Rochester to the 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:45.119 more suburban Henrietta. UM when when he's taking when he's 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.080 reaching the top of the stairs, he turns the quarter 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.640 and then suddenly seems to appear at the bottom of 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.120 the lower flight of stairs, leading up to the landing 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.360 that he just left from, all while continuing to talk 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.840 about the architect behind this like kind of weird impossible 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.480 feat um. So, as Kevin walks back up the camera, 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.560 he says that the stairwell was built in the eight 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:07.880 and it's been wowing r I two students ever since. Um, 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.520 it's it is very cool. It's like it's like you're like, okay, 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.960 like you get you get the little like like you 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.120 get the little architectural trick that they're doing. Um, but 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:19.000 it's it is it is still pretty fun to see. 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.520 Before episode three of Can You Imagine aired you Can 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.120 you can already find a few articles on the school's 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:31.080 UH website about the issuing stairwell, along with some like 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:35.000 forum posts debating how the architecture in the stairwell works 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.320 to like achieve the effect. Um Also floating around on 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.159 YouTube was like a random segment of what looked like 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.960 a like a PBS style late nineties documentary about the 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.440 physics and architecture of the school and specifically the stairwell 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.160 that interviewed some like professors um and some like architects 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.839 and like a symphysicist kind of discussing what like how 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.920 to like bring paradox into the physical world. Yeah but 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:00.360 but but but around the time and the can You 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:04.200 Imagine episode aired now, like infamous r RT stairwell was 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:08.080 mostly unknown, so like even despite it being very interesting, 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:10.960 no one really knew about it until this episode of 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:14.640 this little web series air Um. The little web episode 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:18.960 dedicates around half its time to interview students, uh and 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.720 righteously random people at the university about if they even 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:25.159 know about the stairwell's existence um, and if they do, 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.800 what like experiences they have with like messing around with 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.560 like the looping architecture, because yeah, you can, you can 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:33.240 you know, you can play a lot of games with 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.800 this type of with this type of design. Uh. So 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:37.920 the rest of the short video like tries to demonstrate 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:42.560 the disorienting ascent down and descent back up via the 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.160 camera in various ways, like you know, like human chains 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.919 or holding hands around the weird like rubious loop types 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.839 staircase then like passing objects back and forth in a 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:56.200 circle while inside and around the enclosed stairwell. Um, there's 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.960 one where Kevin walks around with a cup to show 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:01.800 that the stairs aren't like clearly like heavily slanted, like 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.000 the water stays pretty pretty level as he walks all 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:05.760 the way through, and like we follow with him the 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:09.280 entire time. Um. So yeah, Like the overall like nerdy 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.880 and low fi style of the University video match with 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.960 like the insane feet of architectural illusion is a really 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.000 fun mixed like it's like it's like it's it's it 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.000 is very like surreal, but not totally on purpose, because 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:24.960 it's just all of these like regular college students showing 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.880 this like really cool architecture by this really good architect 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:31.120 and you're like, oh yeah, they're just like so chill 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.839 about it. Um, it is it is. It is pretty fun. 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:39.200 It's pretty fun. Um. After the third episode of the 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.800 Imagine Our i T video was posted, finally the mind 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:47.800 boggling looping staircase of building seven in of our T 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.920 started to gain a lot of confused appreciation. UM and 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.440 the dorky University Science show went vital. People started traveling 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:58.279 from out of state even other countries to see the 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:03.159 Asherian stairwell themselves of and film videos on social media 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:05.280 as as they walked through it. There this this one 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.599 video of like people traveling to a different country and 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.120 they're like harassing like the school staff to try to 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:11.760 like tell them where it is, and they're like, oh 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.200 my god, you're still doing this because it was like 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.000 because like this film was this video is like like 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.800 years old, but it's it still happens. People still travel 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.400 there to to specifically see it. Um. There is like 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.200 tense online discussion and debate on how the Filipino architect 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.160 Raphael Avugando was able to achieve the effect and what 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.160 kind of other bizarre architectural experiments he may have worked on, 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:34.880 because you can find his Facebook page and you can 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.240 find some stuff about him, but he has not really 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.760 because like this this steroile was built in the late sixties, 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.120 but you haven't you, So he even though he has 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.320 an online presence, he's like he's like he's not like active, 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:49.400 so it's unclear like what else he's actually been doing. Um, 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:51.240 but I would I would, I would love to learn 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.880 more about this architect and what else he's done because 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.400 this it is it is really rare to have these 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:01.840 very small, condensed but like high effort type like type builds, 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.760 and like the the existence of the whole thing. Posted 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:09.920 some really interesting questions around how extremely clever paradoxical design 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.600 can push the boundary of how we make assumptions about 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:15.680 spatial physics UM, and how we visually and physically demonstrate 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.280 things that we usually can only depict in two dimensions, 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:20.280 right like you can you can easily depict the the 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.920 issuing in stairwell in two dimensions, but when you're scaling 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:26.080 that up to three dimensions, it's obviously more works like 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:28.880 like that. That is that is part of the paradox um. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.400 Plus you know, it also demonstrates the importance of art 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.840 and how ideas once thought impossible or merely optical illusions 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:39.120 can actually, with enough datacat effort, break into our real reality. Uh. 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:41.520 If a brilliant architect can manage to build this physically 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:44.760 and like logically impossible structure, what other types of things 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.760 can we actually view as possible? Um? The video now 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.400 has like over a million views on its original upload. 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.640 UM and videos about the r I t stairwell have 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:55.920 ranked up as many as like twenty five million views. 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:01.160 Yeah it's pretty cool. Yeah. You know what else demonstrates 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:05.199 the looping nature of time. Having to listen to all 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:19.240 these ads that we do, ye do we we are 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:22.200 we are back. I've I've rounded the corner and we 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:26.040 are back where we came from. Um because of the 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:32.839 fun paradox of architecture. Um. The one the one other 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.560 thing I should mention it before we continue on this 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.600 episode is that the entire thing is fake. It's false. 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:43.000 No way, not this time. We created it. Not this time, no, 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.680 not this time. It's totally made up. Because of course 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.800 it's it's a staircase that breaks the basic girls of 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.600 movement in physics. Kevin walks up the stairs and teleports 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.400 to the lower stairwell. Belief them this this that's not 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.520 that's that's not an architectural allusion. It's called a good video. 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:04.520 And the day and adobe after effects like no, you're 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.599 you're really gonna believe a video on the Internet and 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.280 some well placed, falsified Internet posts over the very basic 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:15.640 rules that governed our universe. But like, oh boy, did 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.920 it fool millions of people? Uh? And if I played 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.200 my cards right, I hope most of our listeners until 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:26.040 the last few seconds. Um yeah, and uh so the 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:30.000 whole the whole thing was a was a student like 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:34.600 film and art project around around building a modern myth. 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:38.960 Um the it's because it's sure, It's sure is interesting 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:44.640 how good storytelling can overrule obvious logical processes. The tale 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:46.959 of the is Sharian Stairwell is one of my favorite 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.360 case studies and how disinprobation spreads and it's believed while 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.000 all in defiance of the basic rules of reality, because 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.160 it's not a matter of what facts are true, it's 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.800 about what facts are compelling. And the idea of a 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:02.600 logically impossible staircase being built by a brilliant Philippino architect 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:06.880 is more interesting than it being someone's weird and disinformation 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:12.000 art project. Um there. So yeah, Like I want to say, 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:14.520 like how what what were you guys thinking as I 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.920 was explaining the Asurian stairwell, Like where did you see 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:20.040 this going? Okay, so I had in the back of 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.880 my head, Okay, we should we should mention this. Garrison 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:28.200 has been hyping up this episode for like I don't 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:34.480 even a pretty amount of time nothing, Yeah, and there's 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:38.440 a staircase, and I'm like what what? I was like, 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.520 my my brain my brain started going because he said 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:47.200 and I was like my like my encountering surgency brain 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.640 flicked on and I was like, wait a second, hold time, 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:55.000 is this like some kind of like weird like we've 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.200 redesigned the college campuses so they stop people stopped taking 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:02.079 the dean hostage, a thing that used to happen constantly 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.120 and with all my favorite party about this would happen constantly, 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:11.840 and you'd get New York Times articles calling it non violent. Great. Yeah, 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:15.240 so yeah it was that was that was. Yeah. I 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:17.200 spent more mental energy that I probably should have tried 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.319 to figure out how it worked out. Was like, I 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.560 don't know, maybe they just made it, Like if they 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:25.719 just made it Acus Razor, it's obviously yeah. I mean 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:27.400 I was. I was in the like I was in 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.400 the like okay, so they built a staircase, they built 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.280 another the viewers cannot see my fingers and it was like, 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.800 it's a staircase. It doesn't tell it. It was like 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.520 it was like, but you can't find videos of people 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:41.960 traveling to the school to see if it's real. And 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.520 they try it and they're so disappointed. They're like, oh, yeah, 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:48.080 it's it's no, it's just stairs. It doesn't it doesn't. Yeah, 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:49.720 it's disappointed in a lot of ways because it's it's 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.480 not even like a thing where like there's like another 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.400 back staircase that you walked down. Then again it's just 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.280 it's just nothing. It's just stas I was hoping there 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.040 was like, actually clever thing is No, it's just it's 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:07.360 not really it's it's it's just. It was that meme 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:10.360 where all the math doesn't add up in the person 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.599 what is happening? I was like, all right, Garrison, you 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.600 got us here. You made Robert get up before noon. 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.920 What is happening? Well, the reason, the real reason I 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.440 got up before I got Robert up before noon is 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:28.800 because I actually, um have scheduled an interview with the 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:31.920 creator of the Assarian Stairwell, the actual one be like 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:37.960 the online art project and building a modern myth idea um, 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.400 which we are now going to segue into. So yeah, 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:46.400 what what follows is us talking with the creator of 0:13:46.559 --> 0:14:01.080 the Assarian Stairwell project. Hello, we are we are back 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.839 from our probably very very brief break um and with 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:10.360 me along with Robert and Chris and Sophie is Uh Michael, 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:15.640 the creator of the Sharian Stairwell Project and the Building 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:22.560 the Modern Myths Project. Hello greetings, Thank you so much 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.080 for joining us to talk about one of my one 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.200 of my favorite things actually is which is here a 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:33.240 little to us to project? Um yeah, I've been a 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.120 fan of this for a long time and found it 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:39.000 to be really compelling and interesting. Um and I so 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:43.640 I just walked through Robert and Chris and Sophie what 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.280 what it what it was, but from the perspective of 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:50.000 it being true for like for the good fifteen minutes, 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.280 I was I was episode was going, I was going 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.480 through talking about it as if it were completely real, 0:14:56.120 --> 0:15:02.240 but curious that it was. It was slightly baffling because 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.360 again we were told nothing, and then what we got 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.720 is Garrison is talking about a YouTube video about an 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:15.160 architecture thing and I was like what here? Yeah, and 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.000 then and then then talking about how oh yeah, and 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.120 I guess one more thing is that it's actually fake. 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.720 Um and it's part of this whole this whole thing. 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.960 So yeah, I would I would love to talk to 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.240 you about both, like how how you like logistically like 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.760 made the project, but also like the underlying you're wondering 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.640 thought thoughts that like inspired you to do in the 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.520 first place, and then like retrospected now almost like ten 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:40.840 years later, like how do you view the project as 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.440 like happening you know, right before like the peak of 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:49.080 online disinformation? Um? Right, So but first of all, I 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:51.240 just think we should would probably start start at the beginning, 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.800 like what what was your inspirations for this type of 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.800 like online like very because it seems it seems it 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:01.520 seems built to go viral in a lot of ways. Yes, exactly. 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:05.680 So this was around twenty eleven, I guess was when 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.680 I first got the idea. It was for my master's thesis, 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:13.520 my m f A for film at Rochester r I 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:19.200 t and UM. The idea actually began from this like 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:26.200 deep anxiety about how to discern fact from fiction? Um. 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.560 At the time, like I came into film school like 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:34.200 really into like realism in films like Romanian new Wave 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.120 mckel hanaka dar Dan Brothers. Like these are filmmakers who 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.920 are like they're sort of like the modern day version 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.560 of Italian nero neo realism, and they're trying to like 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:48.040 depict like these um, reality as it is. I wanted 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:52.160 to like learn how to make those types of films. UM. 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.520 So over like with each year, that's what I tried 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.880 to get better at. And the more I tried to 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:02.440 do that, UM well, like a number of things were 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:05.800 happening around that time. Right in class, they showed us 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.359 that these mockumentaries called No Lies, which was made in 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.040 nineteen seventy three by this guy called Mitchell Black actually 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:17.080 won a student oscar at the time, and uh Delusions 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.320 and Modern Primitivism two thousand one by this guy named 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:25.240 Daniel Laughlin, UM, and these Like I was like floored 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:31.600 because I thought they were real, like real documentaries and um, 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.880 and it bothered me, like our teachers still this afterwards 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:38.439 that these were actually scripted works of fiction with like 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:42.160 really really good actors, and it like I went into 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.199 kind of like existential crisis mode afterwards, like how do 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.119 I even discern what's true from what's not if I 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.879 got fooled by these things, especially like that's like my concentration, 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:55.600 that's what I've been studying for years, and even I 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.760 was not even able to tell that they were fake. Right, 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.280 There was that going on, and then there was like 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.159 smartphones were becoming a thing, Like I just looked it up. 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:10.840 Smartphones didn't start out out selling flip phones still, so 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.560 around this time, like it was becoming a thing where 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.159 everyone would have the Internet in their pockets. So I 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:21.399 guess there was that anxiety going on trying to think about, um, um, 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:26.480 how we're starting to function and how we're how I 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:29.960 remember when I proposed my thesis, did the thesis committee, 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:35.199 I um, one of the things that I was telling 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:39.639 them was, um, I have this worry about how reliant 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.200 we are on the Internet to determine what's true and 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.240 what's not. And this is like like my professors found 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.680 my concerns like really abstract and theoretical, like why do 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.720 you even care? Because this right, Like why did you 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.679 about fact and ficture? It wasn't like fake news. That 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.040 wasn't even an It wasn't It didn't become part of 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.760 the everyday lexicon, like you said, until six when Trump 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:07.560 started throwing that term around and suddenly we hear about 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.679 it every day. Um, So there was that going on. 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.680 Trayvon Martin was a thing, and for the first time, 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:19.439 like nationally, you could see like disinformation like on you know, 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:23.919 just like exaggerated versions of different different accounts from like 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:29.160 polarizing sides. So all that was going on, and so 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.360 I I wanted to it was it was like this 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.320 film project was about um trying to take something that 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.879 was Are you familiar with with the difference between like 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:47.280 a priori knowledge and a posteriori knowledge? Yeah? Okay, so 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.040 so so like you know, for for anyone who might 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.480 be listening that doesn't really know the exact difference. A 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.560 priori knowledge is the type of knowledge that you can 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:02.919 have without needing to make observations or conduct experiments or 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.920 look at surveys or do any research of any any kind. 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.040 Is a sort of knowledge you can know just by 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:12.800 reasoning it out, but just by sitting in a room 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.040 by yourself in the dark, you could figure things out. 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.160 This is the sort This is a priori knowledge um. 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.639 So for an example of that is like knowing that 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:26.320 all bachelor's are unmarried, right, or all triangles of three sides, 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:30.800 that's a priori knowledge. An example of oppos stereori knowledge 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:36.360 um is something that you find out through observation or 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:39.760 you need using one or more of your five senses, right, 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:44.720 Like Joe Biden is the President of the United States. Um, 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:47.320 the masses of Mars is six point four one seven 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.159 one times ten to the twys. You actually have to 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.600 go out into the world and conduct surveys or do research. 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.680 So that's oppos stereo knowledge. So the idea was to 0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:02.359 take something that was a priori as something that could 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:07.639 that could um be disproven by reason alone, Like you 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.879 wouldn't have You wouldn't need to do any research in 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.439 order to to know that it was false. You'd simply 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:18.520 had to reflect on it and um think about it. Uh. 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:20.840 So we could have picked anything, right, we could have. 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.760 We could have said made up like a fake news 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:28.520 report that Lee's mathematicians that m I T having invented 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:32.920 like a square with five sides something like that. You know, Um, 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.640 I remember that weekend up there in sm now had 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:39.960 this sketch. I think it was like, um, forget who 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:42.080 it was. It might have been Kevin Nealon or something 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:46.159 like that. The report was like scientists and mathematicians have 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:50.159 discovered the new number. The number exists between five and six, 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:52.560 and they're calling it the numbers spleen, you know, something 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:58.040 like that, which is like just impossible. So, um, so 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:01.560 come up with something that could be disproven by reason alone, 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:05.320 and at the same time surrounded with this wealth of 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:11.359 online information UM supporting its veracity. So like you know, 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:14.159 it was kind of a social experiment. So I was like, 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:18.119 have we are we so far beyond rational thinking that 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:23.080 even something that can be disproven a priori people would 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:25.439 believe And it was like, we didn't really know the 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:27.840 answer to that, but we were going to commit to 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:31.560 creating this thing as though it was real and but 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:34.919 which was like logically impossible. So in a way it 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:40.480 anticipated the age of like this information because it wasn't 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:43.320 just Yeah. The thing I kind of alluded to in 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:45.480 my little scripted portion is that like, yeah, it wasn't 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:47.639 just the YouTube video. There was also this extra online 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:52.240 content that was created, um, some of which articles, So yeah, yes, 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:54.480 like there was you can find like articles, forum posts, 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:56.840 all this kind of stuff, like like like if yeah, 0:22:56.880 --> 0:22:58.520 like so if you could look into it more and 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:01.359 find these other things, but it's still contradicts the basic 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:05.040 logical processes that we can use to discern what is 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:08.199 real what is not ums, Like yeah, in terms of 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:10.520 like believing in a five seed square, like no, that's 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:13.560 not what that that that's not how like physics and 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:18.400 like spatial like the spatial dimensions work. Um. So yeah, 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:20.960 and then in terms of all the extra material you 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:23.199 filmed for it, because there was like there was like 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:26.640 I think I read around like nine hours of documentary footage. 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:30.280 Was also a lot like a lot of footage, but 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:34.880 it was only made into like probably a thirty minute thing. Um. 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:37.520 We got our friends, like at the very very beginning, 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:39.240 we got our friends to play along with it. Like 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:41.760 so whenever you see posts about this, just comment like 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:44.160 it's real, Like, yeah, I was there. It was really great. 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:49.520 And um, eventually people would actually start visiting the stairwell, 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:53.440 like from all over, like from Canada. They crossed the 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:57.040 border to get there because it's in upstate New York, right, Um. 0:23:57.240 --> 0:24:00.600