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Speaker 1: Podcast, Thank you. That is it is, It's true. It's true.

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Speaker 1: Actually it could happen here listening to the podcast. That

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Speaker 1: is more or less the truth we have. We have

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Speaker 1: Dreg Robert out of bed at before their crack of

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Speaker 1: dawg at a legend forty two am. Um, and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about actually something very fun. I've been I've

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Speaker 1: been wanting to talk about this for a long time

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Speaker 1: because this is one of actually one of my favorite things.

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Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah, So I'm gonna I'm gonna tell a

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Speaker 1: bit of a bit of a little story regarding one

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Speaker 1: of my act all time favorite events and topics. So

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Speaker 1: back in like, there was this a cheesy little online

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Speaker 1: university sign show made by the Rochester Institute of Technology

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Speaker 1: called can You Imagine um. The The idea was to

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Speaker 1: highlight some of the cool and weird things at the

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Speaker 1: university UM in part to promote the Imagine r i

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Speaker 1: T Festival, which was like the school's annual like innovation

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Speaker 1: and creativity festivals think that they put on. So yeah, today,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk specifically about episode three of the

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Speaker 1: web series because the contents of which overlap with some

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Speaker 1: of my like artistic interests. UM and like just my

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Speaker 1: love of illusions and paradox and I will kind of

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Speaker 1: tie into some topics we are we always discussed in

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Speaker 1: the show. So yeah, episode three one of probably probably

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Speaker 1: the most interesting episode UM. Episode three opens with the

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Speaker 1: hosts Kevin and Steph as they like stand awkwardly in

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Speaker 1: a gloriously dated, you like university film set, like it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's only twenties, it's only twenty thirteen, but

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Speaker 1: it was like obviously like made in the nineties, like

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Speaker 1: like like like the set's like it's it's all it's

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Speaker 1: it's all very dated. What specific Oh, like they're they're

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Speaker 1: like they're just like weird, like like weird, like like

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Speaker 1: dadd science stuff on the walls. All the hosts of

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Speaker 1: wearing like dorky orange T shirts like like over to

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Speaker 1: over top of their regular clothes. Yeah, yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's all. It's all that kind of it's all that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. So like dorkey orange T shirts with

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Speaker 1: the letters r I T for Roger CRUs Sister Institute

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Speaker 1: of Technology UM. Of course, because everything in this online

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Speaker 1: video series is perfect. Kevin is wearing his shirt over

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Speaker 1: top of like a button down it's it's, it's, it's great. Um.

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Speaker 1: The first fifty seconds of the video are taken up

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Speaker 1: with like plugging the upcoming r A T Imagine Festival

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Speaker 1: with a with a co host Steph beautifully stumbling over

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Speaker 1: her lines when she says the events catchphrase, it's where

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Speaker 1: the left brain and the right brain collide. And it's great.

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Speaker 1: It's it's, it's, it's, it's it's perfect. So after all

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Speaker 1: the plugs and the vamping, the hosts get down to

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Speaker 1: the fun engineer ring feet and they'll be showing us today,

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Speaker 1: which is a neat little architectural experiment a part of

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Speaker 1: the r I T campus called the A Sharing and

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Speaker 1: Stairwell UM, of course, named after the impossible staircases depicted

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Speaker 1: in Dutch artist mc Escher's artwork. So the video cuts

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Speaker 1: two from the little like sound stage they're filming in

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Speaker 1: to this boring, white, seemingly typical stairwell. Our host Kevin

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Speaker 1: ascending a flight of the gray concrete stairs. UM explains

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Speaker 1: that what located in Building seven of the campus. The

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Speaker 1: stairwell was designed by Filipino architect Raphael Nelson Avagando and

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Speaker 1: was one of the first structures put up when our

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Speaker 1: I T moved their campus from downtown Rochester to the

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Speaker 1: more suburban Henrietta. UM when when he's taking when he's

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Speaker 1: reaching the top of the stairs, he turns the quarter

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly seems to appear at the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the lower flight of stairs, leading up to the landing

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Speaker 1: that he just left from, all while continuing to talk

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Speaker 1: about the architect behind this like kind of weird impossible

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Speaker 1: feat um. So, as Kevin walks back up the camera,

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Speaker 1: he says that the stairwell was built in the eight

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Speaker 1: and it's been wowing r I two students ever since. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's it is very cool. It's like it's like you're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: like you get you get the little like like you

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Speaker 1: get the little architectural trick that they're doing. Um, but

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Speaker 1: it's it is it is still pretty fun to see.

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Speaker 1: Before episode three of Can You Imagine aired you Can

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Speaker 1: you can already find a few articles on the school's

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Speaker 1: UH website about the issuing stairwell, along with some like

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Speaker 1: forum posts debating how the architecture in the stairwell works

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Speaker 1: to like achieve the effect. Um Also floating around on

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Speaker 1: YouTube was like a random segment of what looked like

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Speaker 1: a like a PBS style late nineties documentary about the

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Speaker 1: physics and architecture of the school and specifically the stairwell

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Speaker 1: that interviewed some like professors um and some like architects

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Speaker 1: and like a symphysicist kind of discussing what like how

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Speaker 1: to like bring paradox into the physical world. Yeah but

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Speaker 1: but but but around the time and the can You

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Speaker 1: Imagine episode aired now, like infamous r RT stairwell was

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Speaker 1: mostly unknown, so like even despite it being very interesting,

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Speaker 1: no one really knew about it until this episode of

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Speaker 1: this little web series air Um. The little web episode

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Speaker 1: dedicates around half its time to interview students, uh and

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Speaker 1: righteously random people at the university about if they even

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Speaker 1: know about the stairwell's existence um, and if they do,

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Speaker 1: what like experiences they have with like messing around with

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Speaker 1: like the looping architecture, because yeah, you can, you can

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Speaker 1: you know, you can play a lot of games with

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Speaker 1: this type of with this type of design. Uh. So

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Speaker 1: the rest of the short video like tries to demonstrate

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Speaker 1: the disorienting ascent down and descent back up via the

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Speaker 1: camera in various ways, like you know, like human chains

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Speaker 1: or holding hands around the weird like rubious loop types

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Speaker 1: staircase then like passing objects back and forth in a

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Speaker 1: circle while inside and around the enclosed stairwell. Um, there's

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Speaker 1: one where Kevin walks around with a cup to show

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Speaker 1: that the stairs aren't like clearly like heavily slanted, like

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Speaker 1: the water stays pretty pretty level as he walks all

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Speaker 1: the way through, and like we follow with him the

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Speaker 1: entire time. Um. So yeah, Like the overall like nerdy

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Speaker 1: and low fi style of the University video match with

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Speaker 1: like the insane feet of architectural illusion is a really

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Speaker 1: fun mixed like it's like it's like it's it's it

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Speaker 1: is very like surreal, but not totally on purpose, because

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Speaker 1: it's just all of these like regular college students showing

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Speaker 1: this like really cool architecture by this really good architect

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Speaker 1: and you're like, oh yeah, they're just like so chill

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Speaker 1: about it. Um, it is it is. It is pretty fun.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty fun. Um. After the third episode of the

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Speaker 1: Imagine Our i T video was posted, finally the mind

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Speaker 1: boggling looping staircase of building seven in of our T

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Speaker 1: started to gain a lot of confused appreciation. UM and

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Speaker 1: the dorky University Science show went vital. People started traveling

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Speaker 1: from out of state even other countries to see the

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Speaker 1: Asherian stairwell themselves of and film videos on social media

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Speaker 1: as as they walked through it. There this this one

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Speaker 1: video of like people traveling to a different country and

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Speaker 1: they're like harassing like the school staff to try to

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Speaker 1: like tell them where it is, and they're like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, you're still doing this because it was like

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Speaker 1: because like this film was this video is like like

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Speaker 1: years old, but it's it still happens. People still travel

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Speaker 1: there to to specifically see it. Um. There is like

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Speaker 1: tense online discussion and debate on how the Filipino architect

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Speaker 1: Raphael Avugando was able to achieve the effect and what

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Speaker 1: kind of other bizarre architectural experiments he may have worked on,

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Speaker 1: because you can find his Facebook page and you can

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Speaker 1: find some stuff about him, but he has not really

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Speaker 1: because like this this steroile was built in the late sixties,

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Speaker 1: but you haven't you, So he even though he has

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Speaker 1: an online presence, he's like he's like he's not like active,

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Speaker 1: so it's unclear like what else he's actually been doing. Um,

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Speaker 1: but I would I would, I would love to learn

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Speaker 1: more about this architect and what else he's done because

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Speaker 1: this it is it is really rare to have these

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Speaker 1: very small, condensed but like high effort type like type builds,

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Speaker 1: and like the the existence of the whole thing. Posted

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Speaker 1: some really interesting questions around how extremely clever paradoxical design

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Speaker 1: can push the boundary of how we make assumptions about

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Speaker 1: spatial physics UM, and how we visually and physically demonstrate

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Speaker 1: things that we usually can only depict in two dimensions,

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Speaker 1: right like you can you can easily depict the the

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Speaker 1: issuing in stairwell in two dimensions, but when you're scaling

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Speaker 1: that up to three dimensions, it's obviously more works like

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Speaker 1: like that. That is that is part of the paradox um.

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Speaker 1: Plus you know, it also demonstrates the importance of art

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Speaker 1: and how ideas once thought impossible or merely optical illusions

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Speaker 1: can actually, with enough datacat effort, break into our real reality. Uh.

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Speaker 1: If a brilliant architect can manage to build this physically

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Speaker 1: and like logically impossible structure, what other types of things

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Speaker 1: can we actually view as possible? Um? The video now

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Speaker 1: has like over a million views on its original upload.

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Speaker 1: UM and videos about the r I t stairwell have

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Speaker 1: ranked up as many as like twenty five million views.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it's pretty cool. Yeah. You know what else demonstrates

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Speaker 1: the looping nature of time. Having to listen to all

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Speaker 1: these ads that we do, ye do we we are

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Speaker 1: we are back. I've I've rounded the corner and we

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Speaker 1: are back where we came from. Um because of the

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Speaker 1: fun paradox of architecture. Um. The one the one other

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Speaker 1: thing I should mention it before we continue on this

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Speaker 1: episode is that the entire thing is fake. It's false.

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Speaker 1: No way, not this time. We created it. Not this time, no,

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Speaker 1: not this time. It's totally made up. Because of course

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Speaker 1: it's it's a staircase that breaks the basic girls of

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Speaker 1: movement in physics. Kevin walks up the stairs and teleports

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Speaker 1: to the lower stairwell. Belief them this this that's not

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Speaker 1: that's that's not an architectural allusion. It's called a good video.

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Speaker 1: And the day and adobe after effects like no, you're

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Speaker 1: you're really gonna believe a video on the Internet and

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Speaker 1: some well placed, falsified Internet posts over the very basic

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Speaker 1: rules that governed our universe. But like, oh boy, did

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Speaker 1: it fool millions of people? Uh? And if I played

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Speaker 1: my cards right, I hope most of our listeners until

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Speaker 1: the last few seconds. Um yeah, and uh so the

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Speaker 1: whole the whole thing was a was a student like

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Speaker 1: film and art project around around building a modern myth.

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Speaker 1: Um the it's because it's sure, It's sure is interesting

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Speaker 1: how good storytelling can overrule obvious logical processes. The tale

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Speaker 1: of the is Sharian Stairwell is one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: case studies and how disinprobation spreads and it's believed while

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Speaker 1: all in defiance of the basic rules of reality, because

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Speaker 1: it's not a matter of what facts are true, it's

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Speaker 1: about what facts are compelling. And the idea of a

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Speaker 1: logically impossible staircase being built by a brilliant Philippino architect

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Speaker 1: is more interesting than it being someone's weird and disinformation

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Speaker 1: art project. Um there. So yeah, Like I want to say,

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Speaker 1: like how what what were you guys thinking as I

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Speaker 1: was explaining the Asurian stairwell, Like where did you see

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Speaker 1: this going? Okay, so I had in the back of

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Speaker 1: my head, Okay, we should we should mention this. Garrison

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Speaker 1: has been hyping up this episode for like I don't

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Speaker 1: even a pretty amount of time nothing, Yeah, and there's

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Speaker 1: a staircase, and I'm like what what? I was like,

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Speaker 1: my my brain my brain started going because he said

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Speaker 1: and I was like my like my encountering surgency brain

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Speaker 1: flicked on and I was like, wait a second, hold time,

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Speaker 1: is this like some kind of like weird like we've

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Speaker 1: redesigned the college campuses so they stop people stopped taking

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Speaker 1: the dean hostage, a thing that used to happen constantly

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Speaker 1: and with all my favorite party about this would happen constantly,

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Speaker 1: and you'd get New York Times articles calling it non violent. Great. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so yeah it was that was that was. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: spent more mental energy that I probably should have tried

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Speaker 1: to figure out how it worked out. Was like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe they just made it, Like if they

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Speaker 1: just made it Acus Razor, it's obviously yeah. I mean

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Speaker 1: I was. I was in the like I was in

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Speaker 1: the like okay, so they built a staircase, they built

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Speaker 1: another the viewers cannot see my fingers and it was like,

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Speaker 1: it's a staircase. It doesn't tell it. It was like

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Speaker 1: it was like, but you can't find videos of people

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Speaker 1: traveling to the school to see if it's real. And

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Speaker 1: they try it and they're so disappointed. They're like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's no, it's just stairs. It doesn't it doesn't. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's disappointed in a lot of ways because it's it's

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Speaker 1: not even like a thing where like there's like another

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Speaker 1: back staircase that you walked down. Then again it's just

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Speaker 1: it's just nothing. It's just stas I was hoping there

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Speaker 1: was like, actually clever thing is No, it's just it's

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Speaker 1: not really it's it's it's just. It was that meme

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Speaker 1: where all the math doesn't add up in the person

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Speaker 1: what is happening? I was like, all right, Garrison, you

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Speaker 1: got us here. You made Robert get up before noon.

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Speaker 1: What is happening? Well, the reason, the real reason I

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Speaker 1: got up before I got Robert up before noon is

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Speaker 1: because I actually, um have scheduled an interview with the

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Speaker 1: creator of the Assarian Stairwell, the actual one be like

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Speaker 1: the online art project and building a modern myth idea um,

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Speaker 1: which we are now going to segue into. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: what what follows is us talking with the creator of

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Speaker 1: the Assarian Stairwell project. Hello, we are we are back

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Speaker 1: from our probably very very brief break um and with

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Speaker 1: me along with Robert and Chris and Sophie is Uh Michael,

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Speaker 1: the creator of the Sharian Stairwell Project and the Building

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Speaker 1: the Modern Myths Project. Hello greetings, Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us to talk about one of my one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite things actually is which is here a

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Speaker 1: little to us to project? Um yeah, I've been a

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Speaker 1: fan of this for a long time and found it

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Speaker 1: to be really compelling and interesting. Um and I so

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Speaker 1: I just walked through Robert and Chris and Sophie what

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Speaker 1: what it what it was, but from the perspective of

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Speaker 1: it being true for like for the good fifteen minutes,

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Speaker 1: I was I was episode was going, I was going

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Speaker 1: through talking about it as if it were completely real,

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Speaker 1: but curious that it was. It was slightly baffling because

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Speaker 1: again we were told nothing, and then what we got

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Speaker 1: is Garrison is talking about a YouTube video about an

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Speaker 1: architecture thing and I was like what here? Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then and then then talking about how oh yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I guess one more thing is that it's actually fake.

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Speaker 1: Um and it's part of this whole this whole thing.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I would I would love to talk to

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Speaker 1: you about both, like how how you like logistically like

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Speaker 1: made the project, but also like the underlying you're wondering

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Speaker 1: thought thoughts that like inspired you to do in the

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Speaker 1: first place, and then like retrospected now almost like ten

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Speaker 1: years later, like how do you view the project as

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Speaker 1: like happening you know, right before like the peak of

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Speaker 1: online disinformation? Um? Right, So but first of all, I

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Speaker 1: just think we should would probably start start at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: like what what was your inspirations for this type of

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Speaker 1: like online like very because it seems it seems it

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Speaker 1: seems built to go viral in a lot of ways. Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So this was around twenty eleven, I guess was when

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Speaker 1: I first got the idea. It was for my master's thesis,

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Speaker 1: my m f A for film at Rochester r I

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Speaker 1: t and UM. The idea actually began from this like

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Speaker 1: deep anxiety about how to discern fact from fiction? Um.

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Speaker 1: At the time, like I came into film school like

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Speaker 1: really into like realism in films like Romanian new Wave

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Speaker 1: mckel hanaka dar Dan Brothers. Like these are filmmakers who

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Speaker 1: are like they're sort of like the modern day version

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Speaker 1: of Italian nero neo realism, and they're trying to like

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Speaker 1: depict like these um, reality as it is. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to like learn how to make those types of films. UM.

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Speaker 1: So over like with each year, that's what I tried

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Speaker 1: to get better at. And the more I tried to

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Speaker 1: do that, UM well, like a number of things were

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Speaker 1: happening around that time. Right in class, they showed us

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Speaker 1: that these mockumentaries called No Lies, which was made in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three by this guy called Mitchell Black actually

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Speaker 1: won a student oscar at the time, and uh Delusions

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Speaker 1: and Modern Primitivism two thousand one by this guy named

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Speaker 1: Daniel Laughlin, UM, and these Like I was like floored

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Speaker 1: because I thought they were real, like real documentaries and um,

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Speaker 1: and it bothered me, like our teachers still this afterwards

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Speaker 1: that these were actually scripted works of fiction with like

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Speaker 1: really really good actors, and it like I went into

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Speaker 1: kind of like existential crisis mode afterwards, like how do

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Speaker 1: I even discern what's true from what's not if I

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Speaker 1: got fooled by these things, especially like that's like my concentration,

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Speaker 1: that's what I've been studying for years, and even I

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Speaker 1: was not even able to tell that they were fake. Right,

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Speaker 1: There was that going on, and then there was like

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Speaker 1: smartphones were becoming a thing, Like I just looked it up.

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Speaker 1: Smartphones didn't start out out selling flip phones still, so

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Speaker 1: around this time, like it was becoming a thing where

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Speaker 1: everyone would have the Internet in their pockets. So I

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Speaker 1: guess there was that anxiety going on trying to think about, um, um,

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Speaker 1: how we're starting to function and how we're how I

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Speaker 1: remember when I proposed my thesis, did the thesis committee,

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Speaker 1: I um, one of the things that I was telling

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Speaker 1: them was, um, I have this worry about how reliant

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Speaker 1: we are on the Internet to determine what's true and

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Speaker 1: what's not. And this is like like my professors found

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Speaker 1: my concerns like really abstract and theoretical, like why do

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Speaker 1: you even care? Because this right, Like why did you

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Speaker 1: about fact and ficture? It wasn't like fake news. That

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Speaker 1: wasn't even an It wasn't It didn't become part of

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Speaker 1: the everyday lexicon, like you said, until six when Trump

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Speaker 1: started throwing that term around and suddenly we hear about

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Speaker 1: it every day. Um, So there was that going on.

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Speaker 1: Trayvon Martin was a thing, and for the first time,

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Speaker 1: like nationally, you could see like disinformation like on you know,

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Speaker 1: just like exaggerated versions of different different accounts from like

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Speaker 1: polarizing sides. So all that was going on, and so

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Speaker 1: I I wanted to it was it was like this

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Speaker 1: film project was about um trying to take something that

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Speaker 1: was Are you familiar with with the difference between like

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Speaker 1: a priori knowledge and a posteriori knowledge? Yeah? Okay, so

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Speaker 1: so so like you know, for for anyone who might

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Speaker 1: be listening that doesn't really know the exact difference. A

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Speaker 1: priori knowledge is the type of knowledge that you can

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Speaker 1: have without needing to make observations or conduct experiments or

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Speaker 1: look at surveys or do any research of any any kind.

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Speaker 1: Is a sort of knowledge you can know just by

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Speaker 1: reasoning it out, but just by sitting in a room

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Speaker 1: by yourself in the dark, you could figure things out.

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Speaker 1: This is the sort This is a priori knowledge um.

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Speaker 1: So for an example of that is like knowing that

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Speaker 1: all bachelor's are unmarried, right, or all triangles of three sides,

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Speaker 1: that's a priori knowledge. An example of oppos stereori knowledge

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Speaker 1: um is something that you find out through observation or

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Speaker 1: you need using one or more of your five senses, right,

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Speaker 1: Like Joe Biden is the President of the United States. Um,

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Speaker 1: the masses of Mars is six point four one seven

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Speaker 1: one times ten to the twys. You actually have to

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Speaker 1: go out into the world and conduct surveys or do research.

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Speaker 1: So that's oppos stereo knowledge. So the idea was to

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Speaker 1: take something that was a priori as something that could

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Speaker 1: that could um be disproven by reason alone, Like you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have You wouldn't need to do any research in

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Speaker 1: order to to know that it was false. You'd simply

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Speaker 1: had to reflect on it and um think about it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So we could have picked anything, right, we could have.

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Speaker 1: We could have said made up like a fake news

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Speaker 1: report that Lee's mathematicians that m I T having invented

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Speaker 1: like a square with five sides something like that. You know, Um,

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Speaker 1: I remember that weekend up there in sm now had

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Speaker 1: this sketch. I think it was like, um, forget who

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Speaker 1: it was. It might have been Kevin Nealon or something

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Speaker 1: like that. The report was like scientists and mathematicians have

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Speaker 1: discovered the new number. The number exists between five and six,

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Speaker 1: and they're calling it the numbers spleen, you know, something

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Speaker 1: like that, which is like just impossible. So, um, so

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Speaker 1: come up with something that could be disproven by reason alone,

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Speaker 1: and at the same time surrounded with this wealth of

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Speaker 1: online information UM supporting its veracity. So like you know,

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Speaker 1: it was kind of a social experiment. So I was like,

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Speaker 1: have we are we so far beyond rational thinking that

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Speaker 1: even something that can be disproven a priori people would

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Speaker 1: believe And it was like, we didn't really know the

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Speaker 1: answer to that, but we were going to commit to

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Speaker 1: creating this thing as though it was real and but

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Speaker 1: which was like logically impossible. So in a way it

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Speaker 1: anticipated the age of like this information because it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just Yeah. The thing I kind of alluded to in

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Speaker 1: my little scripted portion is that like, yeah, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just the YouTube video. There was also this extra online

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Speaker 1: content that was created, um, some of which articles, So yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: like there was you can find like articles, forum posts,

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Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff, like like like if yeah,

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Speaker 1: like so if you could look into it more and

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Speaker 1: find these other things, but it's still contradicts the basic

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Speaker 1: logical processes that we can use to discern what is

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Speaker 1: real what is not ums, Like yeah, in terms of

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Speaker 1: like believing in a five seed square, like no, that's

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Speaker 1: not what that that that's not how like physics and

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Speaker 1: like spatial like the spatial dimensions work. Um. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then in terms of all the extra material you

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Speaker 1: filmed for it, because there was like there was like

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Speaker 1: I think I read around like nine hours of documentary footage.

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Speaker 1: Was also a lot like a lot of footage, but

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Speaker 1: it was only made into like probably a thirty minute thing. Um.

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Speaker 1: We got our friends, like at the very very beginning,

395
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Speaker 1: we got our friends to play along with it. Like

396
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Speaker 1: so whenever you see posts about this, just comment like

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Speaker 1: it's real, Like, yeah, I was there. It was really great.

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Speaker 1: And um, eventually people would actually start visiting the stairwell,

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Speaker 1: like from all over, like from Canada. They crossed the

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Speaker 1: border to get there because it's in upstate New York, right, Um.

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Speaker 1: And I actually ran into a couple from Indie, uh

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Speaker 1: who happened to be visiting visiting New York, and they

403
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Speaker 1: were like, since we're here, we'd like to see this

404
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: stare well that sort of thing. Um. Oh no, I know.

405
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Speaker 1: I felt really bad for a lot of the visitors,

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Speaker 1: so we actually had to come up with souvenirs so

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Speaker 1: that they wouldn't leave empty handed, right, So we made

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Speaker 1: fake We made postcards like saying I've been to the

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Speaker 1: Share and stareile and stuff like that program good and

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Speaker 1: um what happened and the way we explained it. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of people were really mad actually you know,

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Speaker 1: as you can imagine when they got there. But after um,

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Speaker 1: we would explain what we were doing to them with

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Speaker 1: the project. Like a lot of them actually like started

415
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Speaker 1: playing along and thought was really cool, and they went

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Speaker 1: home with their souvenirs and told their friends that they

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Speaker 1: just saw this amazing thing. So you know, it kind

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Speaker 1: of built that way for a little bit. I mean yeah,

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Speaker 1: because it's it's like telling kids that Santa isn't real exactly,

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Speaker 1: and then some of them will be like play along

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Speaker 1: with like okay, cool, this means I can play along

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Speaker 1: with the myth to help you other kids happy. And

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Speaker 1: some of will be like, what, oh no, my entire

424
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: reality is broken. And when you find out it's your

425
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,239
Speaker 1: trying to like pass it on exactly that. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of that was going on, Like Shack the Basketball

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Speaker 1: Player posted about it at some point, Joe Rogan talked

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Speaker 1: about it on his podcast They Got kind of Crazy.

429
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: Wait wait, did Joe Rogan know it wasn't real? Um,

430
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: it's funny. You should see the clip of him doing it,

431
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: because he was like it was him, and who's the

432
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: other guy, Bert Kreiser or something. Anyway, they were arguing

433
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: about whether or not was really. The other guy was like, no,

434
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: it's real, it's so real. Rogan was like, all you

435
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: guys are fucking idiots. You're all idiots. Let's google it

436
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: right now. They google it and they look up an

437
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: article and Joe Joe Rogan's like, Okay, yeah, alright, it's

438
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: still fucking stupid. The guy who built it is fucking

439
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: you know. I you have You have no idea how

440
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: happy you have faced it because I in my in

441
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: my research, but like I have like read your thesis.

442
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: I read all the lots of articles about this. I

443
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: did not come across the rug clip, but I would, right.

444
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: Um it's like way back right, it's like ten years ago,

445
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: and it's like a lot of stuff to dig through

446
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: and I found it though. Again, um, so I'd like

447
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: to kind of go into like the logistics of like

448
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: actually doing this in terms of like creating all the

449
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: fake like web content, but also like you know, dreaming

450
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: up this like family friendly science show that's made by

451
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 1: our I t and like how like you know the

452
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: thing between like naturalism and realism and making it like

453
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: playing not trying to replicate reality, but playing as if

454
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: it were reality, and how those those are two different things. Um. Yeah,

455
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: well what we wanted to make it as real as possible,

456
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: and like that's what I was I'd been studying anyway,

457
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 1: but in like a dramatic context, like making narrative films. Um.

458
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: And the idea was to, um, there's this event at

459
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: r I t every year which gets a lot of people,

460
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: like thirty thousand people a year go to the campus

461
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: and look at like, um, these uh whatever the students

462
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: are working on. It's kind of like a mini like

463
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: festival type of thing. Well, not many is pretty big.

464
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: So we just we wanted to make a video for

465
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: that event. Um. As though we were promoting the event, Hey,

466
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: come see the Assarian stairwell when you get your r

467
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: I T UM and you know you normally for these

468
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: like for these for these events, if you have a

469
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: booth or something, you'll see reservations and you'll see like

470
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: four people reserve fifteen people. Like we were like started

471
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: getting nervous and we found out we got a sense

472
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 1: that this was gonna be big because like when I

473
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: looked at like the reservations for like our non existent

474
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: starewell they were like one thousand plus visitors. Um yeah,

475
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: I still remember like going to campus that day at

476
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: the festival Saturday, and like my friend Ira like comes

477
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 1: up to me, is like, Mike, people want to kill you,

478
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: like cover get over here, and I was like trying

479
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: to not show my face anyway. Yeah that's what. So

480
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: what the way, Like a lot of the legs of

481
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: the project was just like word of mouth, I guess,

482
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: and we actually ran out of money. Um, we didn't

483
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,959
Speaker 1: get to do like the web stuff on the scale

484
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: that we wanted to, but it turned out that we

485
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: didn't even have to. In fact, like within a few

486
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: days or maybe a week or something after the original

487
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: video came out, I posted a video explaining that it's

488
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: a myth. Like I posted it and I was like,

489
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: all right, that was a fun ride. Now I was

490
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: gonna be over because here's a video of me explaining everything, right,

491
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,239
Speaker 1: And people still didn't believe it. People were saying that

492
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: my my video explaining was fake, that was a conspiracy.

493
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: Like people were you know, like invested the into the

494
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: actual myth of it. Yeah, because it is it is

495
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: so much for a lot of people, they've thought that

496
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: is more compelling than the idea that is this like

497
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: you know, project around what is real and what's not.

498
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: They've got so invested in the reality of it that

499
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: they'll explain away every other explanation, right right, um, exactly

500
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: Like my I had a teacher at Rutger's where I

501
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: did my undergrad to Maudlin. He used to say that,

502
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: you know, there's two types of thinking. There's reasoning and

503
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: there's rationalizing. Reasoning is when when you start from a

504
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: place of ignorance and you um, look at the best

505
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: evidence and the best arguments you can find and follow

506
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: that through to the you know, the rational conclusion. Rationalizing

507
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: is when you start from what you want to believe

508
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: and working backwards and looking for you confirmation, right, looking

509
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: for the arguments that are already support what you're saying. There.

510
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: There was a lot of a lot of rationalizing going on.

511
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: I guess people wanted to believe it. Yeah, for for

512
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: the how much how many people in this because they

513
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: assume for all of like the filming, like like everyone

514
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: was all like in on it. But yeah, you know,

515
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: there's whole bunch of great stuff around like all of

516
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: like the men on the street segments are are are

517
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: like perfectly done in terms of like people like just

518
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: acting like regular university students, like talking about the stairwell

519
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: and like how they've got like lost, and then they're

520
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: like looping around in a circle. Um. And all the

521
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: segments with you with um like inside the stairwell with

522
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: all like the very like the very clever end of thing.

523
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: I assume you're using stuff like Adobe after effects. Um,

524
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's it is played. It's played so well

525
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: like it's it's I think part of the part of

526
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: why it's so successful is that it's not filmed like

527
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: you would film something too high like like like for

528
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: a lot of films when they want to do like

529
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: like you know, like like ah the term is like

530
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: a wonner where they had like one long shot and

531
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,719
Speaker 1: then they like hide the transitions in between. You can

532
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: you can obviously tell like they're filming it to make

533
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: these transitions work versus the way you film. This is

534
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: just how people would film it if they were filming

535
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: this four reel um. And they tell that, and it's

536
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,239
Speaker 1: it is so carefully done because it's not trying to

537
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: be something it is. It is just being the thing

538
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: so earnestly in terms of like how how the actors

539
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: like stumble over their lines and the like the opening segment, um,

540
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: like the aesthetics of like all of like the title

541
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: cards and everything is just so it has this has

542
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: this like aura of earnestness, which I think helps sells

543
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: the whole project so so much. Yeah. Yeah, actually speaking

544
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: of the show and like the cheesy title cards and stuff,

545
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: my girlfriend at the time was a producer for this

546
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: show called this local show called Homework Cloudline and where

547
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: kids call in with their homework and they answer the

548
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: questions about it. I studied the ship out of that show,

549
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,479
Speaker 1: just looking at how they built the sets and how

550
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: cheesy and how awkward like the host store, because a

551
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: lot of it was like a lot of the realism

552
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: I think of it is just um yeah, the awkwardness

553
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: of the people. How it's not um, it's not really

554
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: meant to be and and like like the best the

555
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: most convincing untruths, right, is a combination of fact and fiction. Yeah,

556
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: and you know a lot of and blending in the

557
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: actors with real people, you know, in in in the

558
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: in the actual video stuff like that. It's like, yeah,

559
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: like it comes goes pretty viral. Um, you like pretty

560
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: quick create a very easy explanation for No, it's not

561
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: it's not real. It's part of this project. People still

562
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: believe it for years and years. Um. As kind of

563
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: the decade progresses, we go into like the era of disinformation,

564
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: everyone starts getting shown into their pockets. Everyone has Facebook

565
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: with them wherever they go, everyone has Twitter with them

566
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: wherever they go. How is kind of your views on

567
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: like the ethics of the project and what it demonstrates

568
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: in terms of like a case study and like a

569
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: social experiment, Like how has that changed over the years

570
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: from like you like ten years ago when you're drimming

571
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: this up to you now after you know, we've had

572
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: stuff like you know like January six and chew and on.

573
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: You know, all these types of things which I feel

574
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 1: like if are almost like foreshadowed in this in this

575
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: weird way by showing how successful your little project is. Yeah,

576
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: I'm so a lot of a lot of the criticisms

577
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: that it was faced from the get go, like from

578
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: R I. T. Professors even it's still facing right now,

579
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: Like it's still the type of thing people bring up,

580
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,239
Speaker 1: which is essentially that, hey, there's so much disinformation out there.

581
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: At the time, we weren't even using those terms disinformation, right,

582
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: but basically people were. We're bringing up the same complaints,

583
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: which is, there's so much disinformation out there, you're basically

584
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: just adding to it. What what are you even doing?

585
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: So I guess the idea is that, and you know,

586
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: it's a very noble idea, which is what sort of

587
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: ponds to disinformation? Right, we should I guess the idea

588
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: is we should call out every instance of it when

589
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 1: we can flag posts, UM, report posts that violate community

590
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: community standards, you know, speak out, um, provide counter evidence

591
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: when you see fake news, that sort of thing, And

592
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: I think that's great, that's a good thing, UM. But disinformation,

593
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: the problem of disinformation is at the time, this is

594
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: kind of how I explained that, like ten years ago,

595
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: I I described it as a pen as an epidemic, yeah, right,

596
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: or or like a cockroach infestation, like every time you

597
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 1: kill one, ten more spring up and v this this

598
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: notion of like we gotta call out every instance of

599
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: disinformation and stomp it away is like it's great, but

600
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: you're focused on killing cockroaches. Yeah, it's like addressing the symptoms,

601
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: not the actual problem, right, I want to get to

602
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: the cockroach's nest. Right, And whenever whenever I give talks

603
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: about this um this project, people always approach me afterwards,

604
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: you know, like wanting me to kind of because we

605
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 1: we don't just talk about this project. We talked about

606
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: like deep fake stuff, like we show speeches of Obama,

607
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: like looking like the real Obama, but it's like completely fake, right,

608
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: And people start to realize the holy sh it, like

609
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: I don't even know what's real or not anymore, Like

610
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: what can I trust? And they approach me expecting me

611
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 1: to ease their anxiety somehow and kind of like guide

612
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: them through how to discern what's true from what's not,

613
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: as though my project was about finding some sort of solution.

614
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: And I tell them that, like, my project wasn't about

615
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: solving the problem. It was about seeing the problem, right,

616
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: It's about it's about trying to get to the heart

617
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: of the matter. And it's like to me, I think,

618
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: like the heart of the matter, like the cockroach's nest

619
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: is the I don't know you. There are different ways

620
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: to say, but basically, the the lack of critical thinking

621
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: in individuals and like in this society we shaped together

622
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: or um or lack of a willingness to think through

623
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: things carefully. Maybe that's that's um. That's like, if we

624
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: had a society of critical thinkers, this wouldn't be much

625
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 1: of a problem. I think it's because so many people

626
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: come at a lot of information from like when you

627
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: would say the rational viewpoint of like they're trying to

628
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: use reason and stuff, like they're trying to think critically,

629
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: they're trying to think logically, but they come at it

630
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 1: in the terms of rationalizing stuff they already believe. Um.

631
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: And I think that's a very prevailing type of idea

632
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: in terms of like, yes, I'm gonna believe in this thing,

633
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna find evidence to support it. Um, which

634
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: isn't critical thinking. I don't think. I'm not really know

635
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 1: what it is that is itself a logical fallacy. But

636
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: that is so calm, especially on the Internet, because the

637
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: Internet encourages the backfire effects. You know, whenever someone calls

638
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 1: it on something, you want to be right. So you're

639
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: gonna it's as soon as soon as someone callses something,

640
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: you're going to backfire. You're going to like be come

641
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: even more entrenched in what you believe. Um when you know,

642
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: when when you explain to someone that know, Hillary Clinton

643
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: is bad, but she doesn't eat the blood of children, like, no,

644
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: she does. I saw all this thing. I have to

645
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: believe it because like all of the things are tied

646
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: up in what makes you a person. And now all

647
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: of these ideas that have that where used to be

648
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: just be conspiracy theories that you could believe in for fun,

649
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: are now so a part of like what people's sense

650
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: of being are and how they have their entire world

651
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: view that there's so much more because the Internet is

652
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: such a bigger part of their lives. Everything on the

653
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: Internet is a bigger part of the lives for each person.

654
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: So it is more of an ontological threat because these

655
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: things are so closer together now, right, They used to

656
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 1: be much more distinction between the Internet and you because

657
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: you can only ask the computer every once in a while.

658
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: We can now carry on a supercomputer wherever you go,

659
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: so it is like a part of you, Like you

660
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 1: bring it with you almost everywhere. It's always in your pocket.

661
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: So these things are so like stitched together that prying

662
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: them apart and telling people know this thing you would

663
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: carry around Actually probably most don't you see on it

664
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: isn't isn't actually true, like there is people can like

665
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 1: believe that in their heads but don't actually don't Actually

666
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: the belief hasn't actually impact them because like we all

667
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: know that there's like we all know that people can

668
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: just go on the internet and lie, right, that is

669
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: like part of the joke, but we still don't act

670
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: like it. Like oftentimes we get so we get so

671
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: like encased into the stories that we tell ourselves. Right,

672
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: the part of our the is sharing stairwell is so

673
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 1: good is that it's such a it's such a compelling

674
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: story like that, Like the idea of like a brilliant

675
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: architect bringing like you know, building this paradox in the

676
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 1: real world is like is so much more fun than

677
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: being like, yeah, some dude just knows how to use

678
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 1: Adobe after effects. Like right, So you get so entrenched

679
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: into storytelling because the story of like politicians eating up

680
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: eating the blood of children is so much more interesting

681
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 1: than no, politicians just don't care about you, like, and

682
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 1: getting to the heart of that problem is so much

683
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,959
Speaker 1: more difficult than just you know, debunk king things because

684
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: you can debunk things all day and does that actually matter? Yeah,

685
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: I think there there's there's a secondary problem that, like,

686
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: you know, there's another like another level of it, which

687
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 1: is that, yeah, like everyone knows that there's this information now,

688
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: like everyone does. But but that just makes it worse

689
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: because now if you want to do this information, what

690
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: you can claim is like, oh, hey, look at all

691
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 1: these other times that all the stuff has been fake.

692
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: And then you know, and this is how you get

693
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: everyone like doing frame by frame analysis of like a

694
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: bombing and going oh, these are all crisis actors, and

695
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: it's like you know, and you talk, you talk to

696
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 1: these people and they're like, oh, yeah, no, I did.

697
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: I did the research. Look I like I saw through

698
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: the lives. It's like, no, You've just completely made this

699
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: thing up in your head. You can see the green

700
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: screen compression and like, no, it's just regular video compression.

701
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, like everyone can be a detective now,

702
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 1: so everyone can be so convinced to their own conclusions

703
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: even when the conclusions turned out to be not true. Right,

704
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: it's a problem. If there wasn't exy solution, we wouldn't

705
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: have the problem, right, it's one of those things. It's

706
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: like your project is a very good example of like

707
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's a very demonstrative thing. You can

708
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: like you you take someone along this journey and demonstrate, hey,

709
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: this can happen to you, so you should watch out

710
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: for us. Right, look look at the story I crafted.

711
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: Look how you become convinced it for these six minutes

712
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: and then you think, oh, wait, no, you can't teleport

713
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: to a bottom stairwell. That's not that's not how that works. Um.

714
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: But because you take them on that journey, it's a

715
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: very it's a I love it so much as like

716
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 1: a demonstrative process, being like like this can happen, so

717
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: watch out for it in the future. I think is

718
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 1: honestly more useful than just debunking somebody because you can

719
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 1: you can debunk all day, you can have the backfire

720
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: effect and stuff. And you're right about the demonstrative stuff,

721
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: because it's like if a bunch of film students and

722
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,439
Speaker 1: volunteers with no connections and no resources pulled this off

723
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: like we did, like a tally of all the videos

724
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: at the end of the year of um, you know,

725
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: all the videos that ripped it off and posted on

726
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: their own channels and all that. Um, it was like

727
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: fifty million, right, So if if a bunch of film

728
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: students like had that much influence, what more can like

729
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: people who are actually fund like and resources, right, what

730
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: could they do? And we were just doing and ours

731
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: was about like this innocuous, silly Stairwell, it wasn't about

732
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: anything that would cause you know, anyone's death or anything

733
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: like that or and like you know, something like in

734
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: Me and Mar where the ME and Mar military basically

735
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 1: systemically systematically created fake articles and fake photos to create

736
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: like to arouse this dame for the row hinge of

737
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: people and basically they incited a genocide through Facebook, just

738
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: through fake news right in the Philippines where I live

739
00:41:55,120 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: right now, um, which a lot of commentators call like

740
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: the patient zero of disinformation because this guy called was

741
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: elected president basically ran running his entire campaign on disinformation,

742
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: and after him was Brexit like a month later, and

743
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: after that was Trump got the nomination. So like what's

744
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: her name, Kate Katie Barth Barth or or something like that.

745
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: One of the executives of Facebook referred to the Philippines

746
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: as Patient zero. In the era of disinformation because like um,

747
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: and the thing that the president here right now was

748
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: running on was basically like the same sort of um

749
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: bothering and scapegoating of a certain group. And he said

750
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: basically he's the guy who said like, basically, if you're

751
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: a drug user or a drug dealer, it should be

752
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,240
Speaker 1: okay to murder you and kill you. And that's what happened.

753
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: That's exactly what happened, because they were posting all these

754
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: stories about um, you know, the same sorts of stories

755
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: that you that that we saw in the US and

756
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: twenties sixteen about undocumented immigrants or Muslims or something like that.

757
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: This like oh this undocumented immigrant rate the five year

758
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: old girl, you know that sort of thing. And he

759
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: would the the the organized campaign UM making up stories

760
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: about drug addicts like murdering and raping people. Basically like

761
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: got an entire nation too, well not an entire nation,

762
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: but basically this guy won the election. And you know,

763
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: we have a country right now that basically lived through

764
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 1: just atrocities the last five six years, you know, and

765
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: like the double edged sort of this, like Chris mentioned,

766
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, this type same type of thing, because

767
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: it exists. People also like retractively apply it to like

768
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: you know, like Sandy Hook was staged or like even

769
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: stuff now with like you know, the pandemic, right, people

770
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: like what what? What is the pandemic is a real?

771
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: What if all these people have just you know, conjured

772
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: this thing into being and it's all a giant insufferation campaign, right,

773
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,919
Speaker 1: So it has this dual it has this double edged

774
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: sword nature um which makes combat and disformation so challenging.

775
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: It's like disiforation to combat its information to comment the

776
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 1: idea of disinformation, and there's so many layers of it.

777
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: Now there's this this it's just yeah, it makes it,

778
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: it makes actually get into the heart of it so

779
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: much more challenging. It's been abstracted so many times. And

780
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: one of the things what didn't didn't the New York

781
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: Times weren't it the first people to come up with

782
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: the term fake news? And then Trump started using it

783
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: after Like we was watching plotificate which newspaper was but

784
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: my memory if it was like it was, it was

785
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: it was the media that came up with fake news

786
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: and then like Trump just took it and it became

787
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: this like this just like demon they absolutely could not

788
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: control and was just turned on them. Do you do

789
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: you remember the context in which they used it. They

790
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: were like they were I think they were calling like

791
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: stuff that Trump said fake news. Mmm, I am. I'm

792
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 1: unsure at the moment who specifically coined that term. But

793
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: I mean we definitely see terms like even in terms

794
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: like desipiration, which you used to be more tied to,

795
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 1: like a discording in philosophy, breaking like in like even

796
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: even back even as back far as like the eighties,

797
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: getting you know, turned into an actual like political term

798
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 1: that everybody uses. It was actually somebody from buzz Speed.

799
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: An editor at buzz Speed was one of that makes sense,

800
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: is one of the ones who first popularized it. Was Yeah,

801
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: but there could be there could be you know, several

802
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: other people that say that they coined it. I don't know.

803
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I even there's even h an illustration from

804
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety four by by Frederick Offer with reporters carrying

805
00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: newspapers labeled humble news, cheap sensation, and fake news. So

806
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: it's I mean, in terms of in terms of just

807
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: mashing words together. I'm sure it has has had a

808
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: decent history, but definitely Trump is the one that like

809
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 1: launched it into the Zeitgeist right right, right, Let's see, Robert,

810
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: you've been pretty quiet. I know it's pretty early in

811
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: the morning for you. Do you have any do you

812
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: have any kind of thoughts to help us kind of

813
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: generally start closing us out, not not not like super immediately,

814
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,919
Speaker 1: but generally having that direction. I mean no, not really

815
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: kind of brought uct everything. I would say, all right,

816
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: all right, it's ah, yeah, I guess. Uh, Mike, what

817
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 1: have How is this project impacted how you approach film

818
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: and just the like, how you how you use the

819
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: internet yourself in the past decade? M hm, Well, I

820
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: I'm fully aware of what we did. Every time I'm

821
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,399
Speaker 1: like looking at something, I'm like they had done that,

822
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:01,959
Speaker 1: they have done this and that, you know that sort

823
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: of thing. Um, I don't know if it's if yeah,

824
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not sure how it's how this project

825
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: specifically had impacted me, other than just trying to think

826
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: through things a bit more carefully, trying to go through

827
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: things like, um, I mean, like, so we we basically

828
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 1: came up with this idea of what eventually became troll farms, right,

829
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: like me and like my classmates would hey, we even

830
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,280
Speaker 1: make fake accounts and like talk about the stairwell and

831
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 1: um so, I don't know, like a few years later,

832
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: people we we learned that people were actually doing this

833
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: like to influence like elections around the world, and a

834
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: lot of the strategy of like the Russian troll farms

835
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: and stuff, um was basically create caricature versions right of

836
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: arguments from whatever side, like you know, whether they might

837
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: present an argument from like the left or the right,

838
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 1: but in like a caricaturized version of it. And um

839
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: so what people would see when they see that, they'd

840
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: see an argument coming from the other side, and they'd

841
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: ridicule it, like look at these people who just seem

842
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: crazy espousing this whatever view, you know, or they might

843
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: say things like um, like yeah, if you're a Democrat,

844
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: you want to abort babies that like the ninth month

845
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: or something like that, which no reasonable person actually argued.

846
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: So what happens is like, um people talk about how

847
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: the goal of Russia was to like polarize, you know, um,

848
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: polarize the political spectrum. I think like the bigger goal

849
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: in the the goal that we're gonna be untangling for

850
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 1: many many years, and the more um, the more difficult

851
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 1: problem to deal with was that they oversimple they successfully

852
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: oversimplified discourse, you know what I'm saying, Like they found

853
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: a way to like oversimplify the type of discourse we're

854
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: having because everyone's like arguing with such simplist thick I'm

855
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: not sure if I'm making sense. It's like it's like

856
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 1: it's like the term I use is like politics as fandom,

857
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: right right, And that's I think that like intersect not

858
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: not exactly what you're saying, but like intersects with that

859
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 1: type of idea of like condensing down actual discussions on

860
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: like what you believe in, um and what politics you

861
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: want and how you want to put the world into

862
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: this weird fandom lens of like this team versus this

863
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 1: team which we we we we we we we. We've

864
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: had a degree of that for a long long time.

865
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: But with the Internet and how how discussions on the

866
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: Internet are designed to work, right, how algorithms want to

867
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: boost content, how there's always these short snippets they just

868
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: in mirrors the way people discussed like what Star Wars

869
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: character is their favorite? It's just that. But for politics, um,

870
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: so it's it's just this like what if politics is

871
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 1: just this idea of fandom, and you can debate what

872
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: fandom is more valid than the other. Right, I like

873
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: the last Jedi more you like Rise of Skywalker. This

874
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: means your version of reality is less good than mine.

875
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 1: So when that which is, which is but that it's

876
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: that same idea but for how we like make social

877
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: programs and how we address racism, and how we like

878
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,240
Speaker 1: give food to poor people, and how we do affordable

879
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: housing and how we handle the police. So it's that

880
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: type of idea which is just the disinformation kind of

881
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: impacts this in part because when you flood the zone

882
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 1: with so much conflicting information that people can't really get

883
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 1: a handle on or easily sort of like when there

884
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 1: when when you when you put that much confusion in

885
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: to the air, um, it makes people more likely to

886
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: just kind of grasp its sides because everything coming out

887
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,959
Speaker 1: is way too complicated and messy, and it's it takes

888
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: too much work what's actually true. So holding to some

889
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: lubric of well, I believe this, So that means these

890
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: are the good guys, these are the bad guys, and

891
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 1: I don't have to analyze it any deeper than that.

892
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 1: I can reject information that comes from this group. Where

893
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: I can reject information that says this, um, because I

894
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:32,720
Speaker 1: just category categorically reject you know, anything that that fits

895
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 1: in with that, Like, that's the benefit of disinformation for

896
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: authoritarians of all stripes. You're seeing in Ukraine right now,

897
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:43,280
Speaker 1: where Um, you've got all of these different authoritarian powers.

898
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: You've got Turkey, you've got Russia, you've got um, you know,

899
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 1: sucking the United States at least to the extent that

900
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: like we impact a lot of things internationally. Um. And

901
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 1: you've got them all coming down on different sides of

902
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: this issue and of what's happening in Ukraine. And because

903
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: there's so much disinformation and misinformation about what's going on,

904
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: people just kind of grasp at whatever side I'm have

905
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 1: been more sympathetic to recently, I'm just going to believe

906
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: whatever they say because it's way too complicated to actually

907
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 1: analyze what's going on. Yeah, And this was this was

908
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: the thing that I mean, this was explicit on the left.

909
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: I remember this. There was this around um sheen. There

910
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: was a whole thing about how like people people like

911
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 1: talking about anti imperialism would would literally say like nuance

912
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 1: nuances liberalism. I don't like nuances liberalism don't don't research this,

913
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 1: don't think about this because nuances how liberals like you know,

914
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: spread sort of pro promising and change proplicanda, Like I

915
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: remember those people like Ember Frost just just straight up

916
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: said this and this was a huge and you know,

917
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: like I I got a lot of shift for this

918
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: because you know, like I remember when when when the

919
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: Coon Bolivia happened, Like I made a giant thread that

920
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: was trying to that was like, Okay, we need to

921
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: figure out like how specifically the CIA was involved in this,

922
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: Like okay, so did they plan the whole thing? Was

923
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: it like we're they're working with local partners. Wasn't a

924
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: thing where someone else planned it and they signed off

925
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: on it? And like to this day, people think that

926
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: I supported the coup because I was like we should

927
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: figure out who was who the actors were in the

928
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: ground because no one like this. This this, this this

929
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: became like a like like like a tenant, like like

930
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 1: an actual sort of like like political tenants of of

931
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 1: how a lot of antimpurialism, like in the American left worked.

932
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 1: Was you you were not supposed to do nuanced, You

933
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: were not supposed to look at who was like you

934
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: know if if if you spent too long looking at

935
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: what was going on in the ground, people would be

936
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 1: like you worked for the CIA and that you know,

937
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,240
Speaker 1: I think like we we've we've finally seen that basically

938
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: blow up in their faces because you know, oh, hey,

939
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: look how many of these people just like wound up

940
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: supporting Russia and then spent like three months saying that

941
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: Russia would never invade Ukraine. That this happens. But it's

942
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's it's it's extremely depressing how

943
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,399
Speaker 1: people who otherwise are you know, like in a lot

944
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 1: of ways, like I've spent a lot of their time

945
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: like trying to filter out stuff from the media that's

946
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 1: false just go into this because they just do not

947
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:11,839
Speaker 1: want to deal with the complexity of reality. Yeah, just

948
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: easier not to. Again, if there was a simple problem,

949
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,720
Speaker 1: we wouldn't I mean, if there was a simple solution,

950
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 1: we wouldn't need to discuss the problem. Yeah. Yeah, So

951
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: I guess basically, like just to like, um, answer that

952
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: question about how it I guess at the time, I'd say,

953
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: like we got an up close look at how things

954
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 1: were going to be, Like, you know, with with all

955
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: these things we we kind of anticipated the next few years.

956
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: Um so yeah, that's basically what happened. Um, sorry to

957
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: interrupt your clothing, but no, no, no, it's the it's

958
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,280
Speaker 1: the best note that that we can go. Um, Michael,

959
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 1: do you where can people find you online? And if

960
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: people want to look into some of your other projects,

961
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: I mean you found me, Like, if they want to

962
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: find me, they'll find me, right, I don't know. I

963
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: still don't know. You got my email, but Garrison is

964
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: extremely good about this to any people, and I could

965
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: uh yeah, well they can check out the YouTube channel

966
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna be posting some new films this year probably,

967
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: Um so my name Michael Luck can allow or just

968
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: search the Assarians there. I guess that's a way. Yeah, yeah,

969
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,919
Speaker 1: I'll add your YouTube channel to to the description. Yeah.

970
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: I just want to thank you so much for coming

971
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: on to talk about your your project. Yeah, thanks for

972
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 1: having me. All right, Well, that that does it for

973
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: us today. You can follow us on the internet for

974
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 1: some reason, um on Twitter, Instagram, that happened here pod

975
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 1: and cool some media and yeah, go go create a

976
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: myth that people will believe and travel from out of

977
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 1: country to walk over some stairs because that sounds like fun.

978
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: Go to something like that for funzies. All right, bye bye,

979
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: Except happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

980
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 1: Or more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

981
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com or check us out on

982
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

983
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could

984
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: happen here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com

985
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.