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Speaker 1: Happy Monday.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of the Check podcast. I am

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Speaker 2: coming to you. It's a Sunday evening. I have had

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Speaker 2: personally a busy weekend. I traveled down to go see

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Speaker 2: a college football game Miami survive a wet and soggy

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Speaker 2: challenge from the Florida Gators. I will at the at

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Speaker 2: the other end of the interview give you my towards

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Speaker 2: the end of the podcast, because I know not all

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Speaker 2: of you care about college football, but I'm going to

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Speaker 2: keep this up over over over the over the.

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Speaker 1: Season, so we'll do that.

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Speaker 2: At the end, I have to say my Sunday didn't

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Speaker 2: go so well in the football front, thanks to some

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Speaker 2: offensive line problems for the Green Bay Packers, but I

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Speaker 2: will I will save that when I always try to

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Speaker 2: tell my son when it comes to the NFL college football,

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Speaker 2: you cannot lose a game the NFL. You can survive

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Speaker 2: dumb losses. You can serve five dumb losses. That was

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Speaker 2: a dumb loss. So we shall see. But ultimately, I'll

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Speaker 2: be honest, I feel a tiny bit guilty even referencing football,

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Speaker 2: considering the alarming sort of ninety six hours that we

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Speaker 2: and I say this because you can claim every week

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Speaker 2: depending on where you stand, depending on how concerned you

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Speaker 2: are about the Trump presidency and where this is headed.

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Speaker 2: But this is one where you know, and this is

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Speaker 2: you know again we've and I can get into did

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Speaker 2: we spinal tap the Trump presidency back in the first term,

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Speaker 2: So nobody can hear anything and everything is always to eleven,

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Speaker 2: so nobody's quite sure what's a serious threat to the

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Speaker 2: Constitution and to the republic and what is just and

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Speaker 2: own the lib's angry moment, if you will. But I

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Speaker 2: do think we need to put this last week in

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Speaker 2: a little bit of context here, because this last week

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Speaker 2: has been some of the most direct challenges that we've

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Speaker 2: seen from Donald Trump on some basic things that previous

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Speaker 2: that would have driven impeachments plural one that you know,

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Speaker 2: the behavior actually that he's doing right now with the

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Speaker 2: Justice Department was not dissimilar to what happened with Richard Nixon,

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Speaker 2: who resigned the presidency to avoid being impeached and convicted

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Speaker 2: and kicked out of office. You know, look, and this begins,

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Speaker 2: I'm not even going to be getting into the entire

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Speaker 2: FCC situation where he has ordered it appears he has

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Speaker 2: ordered a regulator to just target his media enemies, because

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Speaker 2: there really is no other explanation for this, for what

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Speaker 2: Brendan Carr is doing and the way he publicly celebrates

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Speaker 2: because he wants to make the Boss happy, but he

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Speaker 2: is systematic going after only those that Donald Trump wants

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Speaker 2: him to go after. We now have him upset and

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Speaker 2: angry that he can't get the people that came after

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Speaker 2: him in over the last five years. Leticia James, the

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Speaker 2: Attorney General of New York, Adam Schiff, who is now

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Speaker 2: US Senator, James Comey, the former FBI director. He went

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Speaker 2: on a truth social rant, upset that none of these

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Speaker 2: people have had charges brought against them. In fact, he

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Speaker 2: fired or a US attorney resigned. We can have a

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Speaker 2: debate about that, because the US attorney was doing this

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Speaker 2: horrible thing as far as Donald Trump was concerned, he

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Speaker 2: was actually following the law to try to figure out

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Speaker 2: if there actually was a case to be made against

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Speaker 2: Leticia James and this mortgage fraud that the Trump administration

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Speaker 2: was alleging. He didn't have enough evidence to bring charges.

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump didn't care. He wants charges brought anyway, pushes

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Speaker 2: this US attorney out, and once the attorney who was

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Speaker 2: a former member of his legal team. So that's just there.

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Speaker 2: Never mind the direct sort of rants, maybe you call

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Speaker 2: it an order to PAMBONDI. I didn't even bring up

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Speaker 2: the unconstitutional attacks on Venezuelan ships that I think have

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Speaker 2: led indirectly to the Pentagon trying to essentially prevent the

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Speaker 2: press corps from reporting from the Pentagon. I will get

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Speaker 2: into that also here in a minute. So let's just

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Speaker 2: step back here. Oh, and then there's the borders are

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Speaker 2: who took a bag of cash in twenty twenty four

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Speaker 2: Tom Holman and the Trump Justice Department decided to drop

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Speaker 2: the charges because they couldn't prove anything. Though they're not

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Speaker 2: they're not somehow denying that Tom Holman took a bag

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Speaker 2: of cash under what was apparently a promise to bring

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Speaker 2: government contracts to these FBI agents who were posing as

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Speaker 2: undercover businessmen. So all of this has happened in the

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Speaker 2: last week. Again, we have Brendan Carr systematically targeting, going

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Speaker 2: after and trying to target media and political enemies of

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump and the press, even using mafioso language, drawing

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Speaker 2: the ire of some conservatives, which I want to get

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Speaker 2: into a minute. Donald Trump firing or forcing a resignation

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Speaker 2: from the US attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia

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Speaker 2: because they wouldn't bring charges against Latisia James angry that

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Speaker 2: his attorney general has yet to bring charges against Adam

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Speaker 2: Schiff or James Comy let alone. Letitia James, We've got

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Speaker 2: this Tom Holman story that, you know, frankly reads like

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Speaker 2: a bad you know, a bad update to the old

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Speaker 2: famous ab scam story if you ever followed that, it

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Speaker 2: got turned into a fun movie. And then of course

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Speaker 2: what the Pentagon is doing, and the possibility that there's

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Speaker 2: extra judicial killings going on without any sort of congressional

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Speaker 2: authority to go with it. So here we have all

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Speaker 2: of these challenges essentially to the basic in some ways

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Speaker 2: what are the basic premises of our constitution? And I

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Speaker 2: think the question is is any of this going to

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Speaker 2: be alarming enough that you start to see Republicans say, hey,

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Speaker 2: this is too much? Enough is enough? I might argue,

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Speaker 2: you actually are starting to see some of this because

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Speaker 2: the difference between term one and term two. Right, we've

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Speaker 2: gone through this right and Trump one point, oh, writes

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Speaker 2: Priebush and Mike Pence made sure that administration was stocked

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Speaker 2: with professional conservatives.

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Speaker 1: What did I mean by that?

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Speaker 2: Yes they were conservative, but they believed in these crazy

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Speaker 2: things like the constitution, the rule of law.

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Speaker 1: You get my point. Donald Trump wasn't going to let

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Speaker 1: that happen.

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Speaker 2: In Trump two point, Oh, he's surrounded by sick of fans,

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Speaker 2: and he made sure to put in people who were

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Speaker 2: going to personally.

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Speaker 1: Do him favor.

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Speaker 2: He even put his personal attorney as the deputy attorney general,

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Speaker 2: which is just you know, that in itself, and Todd

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Speaker 2: Blanche that in itself is I guess you would use

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Speaker 2: the word praising. But here we are, and this is

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Speaker 2: this last ninety six hours. It is about as troubling

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Speaker 2: as we can get. So let me get into some

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Speaker 2: of this a little bit. Let's go into the what's

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Speaker 2: going on with Letitia James. Right, he's been trying just

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Speaker 2: using you know that he has this guy that's been

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Speaker 2: combing through the records of high profile people's mortgages and

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Speaker 2: trying to come up with finding to see if they,

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Speaker 2: you know, somehow committed mortgage fraud by declaring more than

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Speaker 2: one residence a primary residence. They've been using this mortgage fraud.

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Speaker 2: The Adam Schiff is one of them. Leticia James is

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Speaker 2: one of them. Of course, the whole fight about does

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Speaker 2: he have the authority to just randomly fire FED governors

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Speaker 2: whose term if he can claim that there was wrongdoing,

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Speaker 2: although there's seems to be no proof that Lisa Cook,

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Speaker 2: the FED governor, did that. But he did appeal to

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court to see if the Supreme Court would

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Speaker 2: okay that firing given what we what the Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: said over when he did get their permission essentially to

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Speaker 2: fire folks on the National Labor Relations Board, that the

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Speaker 2: FED was going to be treated differently as an independent

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Speaker 2: agency versus the NROLB. So, but this little gambit of

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Speaker 2: trying to use mortgage fraud has been, frankly is kind

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Speaker 2: of It's not kind of failed, it has failed.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: You have Eric Siebert, who is the US Attorney from

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Speaker 2: the Eastern District of Virginia, who Donald Trump is frustrated

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Speaker 2: that there were two Democratic senators who were okay with

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Speaker 2: that person being the US attorney and because this person

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Speaker 2: was going to get bipartisan support, Donald Trump thought that

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Speaker 2: was one of the reasons why this was proof this

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Speaker 2: person might be a rhino. Both Tim Kane and Mark

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Speaker 2: Warner were fine with this. Ironically, the current Attorney General,

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Speaker 2: Pambondi has actually desperately been trying to save this, to

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Speaker 2: save secrets nomination, because they do feel as if he's

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Speaker 2: been there a long time, he's considered somebody who knows

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Speaker 2: what he's doing, and they've been trying to stop it.

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Speaker 2: Of Course, the last time an attorney general got in

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Speaker 2: a president tried to get this involved with firing US attorneys,

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Speaker 2: it cost an.

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Speaker 1: Attorney general their job.

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Speaker 2: Alberto Gonzalez back during the Bush forty three administration, they

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Speaker 2: fired a whole slew of US attorneys essentially very upfront

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Speaker 2: as political, you know, sort of political reasons, saying they

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Speaker 2: wanted to put in their own folks on that. But

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Speaker 2: how it was done, how it was conducted, was pretty controversial,

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Speaker 2: and it cost the attorney general's job. In this case,

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Speaker 2: we don't have any kind of uproar, we don't have

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Speaker 2: any kind of bipartisan concern yet, but I think it's

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Speaker 2: possible that's going to happen. Should know, the Eastern District

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Speaker 2: of Virginia is one of the more important. This is

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Speaker 2: where a lot of the terror counter terrorism trials happen.

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Speaker 2: It's you really have to have really good people here.

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Speaker 2: They're politically sensitive cases get brought here, get brought in

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Speaker 2: this in the Eastern District of Virginia. And so the

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Speaker 2: main Justice Department of Justice doesn't like this, this one

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Speaker 2: to be as politicized as other slots for the US

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Speaker 2: Attorney So so that's troubling number one. And after that rant,

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Speaker 2: then he went on a true social rant, really upset

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Speaker 2: that none of these people have been indicted. He addresses

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Speaker 2: his Attorney General, Pam Bondi as Pam, and he goes,

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Speaker 2: we can't delay any longer. It's killing our reputation and credibility.

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Speaker 2: They impeached me twice, they indicted me five times over nothing.

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Speaker 2: Justice must be served now. Now again, he is only

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Speaker 2: targeting the people that he believes brought charges against him.

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Speaker 2: He wants charges brought right back against them on this front.

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Speaker 3: So it is it is.

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Speaker 2: He's ranting about this. It's unlikely at this point, right

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Speaker 2: if the Justice Department does end up bringing charges against

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Speaker 2: any of these folks, if the court, if it's in

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Speaker 2: a legitimate court of law, the prejudicial aspect of Trump's

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Speaker 2: own words, are going to likely have all these cases

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Speaker 2: either dismissed or juries are just going to not grand

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Speaker 2: juries won't in diet or if they're in jury trials,

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Speaker 2: juries aren't going to convict because it's blatantly obvious. He's

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Speaker 2: basically already wanting to convict these folks. He's just searching

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Speaker 2: for evidence in order to get his conviction. The evidence

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Speaker 2: he hasn't found yet, even people who want to try

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Speaker 2: to help him can't find the evidence to do it.

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Speaker 2: And yet he doesn't care. The question is what is

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Speaker 2: the Department of Justice going to do next in order

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Speaker 2: to appease him. Is this going to get uh? Is

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Speaker 2: this going to get really ugly?

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Speaker 1: Uh?

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Speaker 2: And is this gonna you know, are they going to

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Speaker 2: just bring indictments whether they have it or not. I mean, look,

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Speaker 2: they tried to bring some indictments back in DC. We

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Speaker 2: saw grand Jury's just said no. Normally grand juries will

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Speaker 2: say yes to the Justice Department. But this Justice Department

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Speaker 2: has been so compromised, its credibility so compromised in the

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Speaker 2: public that I think they're going to have a harder

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Speaker 2: and harder time bringing basic charges and getting indictments out

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Speaker 2: of Grand juries because of the reputation that they're starting

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Speaker 2: to get for basically just trumping up charges. And yes,

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Speaker 2: pun was intended on that one. Let me get into

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Speaker 2: the Tom Homan situation, because I think that one is

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Speaker 2: is something else. So I don't know if you've you've

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Speaker 2: paid attention to this. So MSNBC broke the story Caro Lenok,

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Speaker 2: former longtime reporter basically you know who own owned all

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Speaker 2: of the secret Service stories over the last decade from

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Speaker 2: the crazy secret Service stuff back during the Columbia days.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Carolina has been sort of on top of this,

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Speaker 2: and they broke this story. Here here's the basics of

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Speaker 2: the story. In September of twenty twenty four, while the

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Speaker 2: presidents borders are, Tom Homan was a private citizen at

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Speaker 2: that time, basically just campaigning for Donald Trump. Homan was

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Speaker 2: allegedly recorded accepting fifty thousand dollars in cash from undercover

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Speaker 2: FBI agents. Fun little detail was in Akva bag, So

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Speaker 2: you know that'll be a fun Maybe Cava will do

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Speaker 2: some viral marketing based on that.

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Speaker 1: So these agents, this goes back.

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Speaker 2: If you've ever if you're real political junkies, you'll know

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Speaker 2: what I mean when I say abscam. This sort it

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Speaker 2: has all reeks of abscam. Apparently agents were posing as

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Speaker 2: business people or contractors who were seeking immigration related government contracts,

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Speaker 2: contingent of course, on Trump winning the twenty twenty four election,

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Speaker 2: and they assume that Homan, if they did, would be

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Speaker 2: in a position of influence. This meeting was recorded. There

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Speaker 2: apparently were also hidden cameras in audio, so there may

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Speaker 2: be video of Homan actually accepting this money. We'll see

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Speaker 2: if this video exists or if it's going to get destroyed.

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Speaker 2: Now here's the issue, right, these are various, and this

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Speaker 2: happened dur an abscam. They couldn't It's tough to bring

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Speaker 2: the charges. Right, you promise you're going to do something

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Speaker 2: for this cash. If you cannot prove the quid pro quo, right,

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Speaker 2: you have the cash, but you don't necessarily have anything

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Speaker 2: else proving that there was a quid pro quo, then

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Speaker 2: it is sort of difficult to bring charges. Now, the

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Speaker 2: Department of Justice under the Trump administration. This is what's

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Speaker 2: amazing about this story and the fifty thousand dollars here

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Speaker 2: is that the Trump administration is not denying that he

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Speaker 2: took fifty thousand dollars. By the way, the IRS may

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Speaker 2: want to have may want to know a little something

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Speaker 2: about that fifty thousand dollars now, so he may he

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Speaker 2: may end up having some tax problems. He's not careful

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Speaker 2: on this, and if they choose to bring charges, right,

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Speaker 2: the federal government could easily a lot of times with

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Speaker 2: bribery cases, that's what you do. If you don't actually

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Speaker 2: you can't prove the bribery, you can prove the unreported income.

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Speaker 2: And so he has this extra fifty thousand dollars. So

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Speaker 2: either he has reported and paid taxes what are to

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Speaker 2: report the income as, or he didn't and he's going

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Speaker 2: to owe some taxes, which means he.

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Speaker 1: Possibly broke the law doing that.

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Speaker 2: But the Department of Justice under the Trump administration decided

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Speaker 2: to close this investigation earlier this calendar year. They're totally

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Speaker 2: upfront about it, and they said the state of reason

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Speaker 2: is lack of credible evidence of criminal wrongdoing. The FBI

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Speaker 2: director Cash pttel Right, donald Trump's handpicked FBI director, and

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Speaker 2: the Deputy Attorney General Todd blanche again, donald Trump's former

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Speaker 2: personal lawyer, who's now in this position of authority for

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Speaker 2: some bizarre reason. Why he got confirmed by a United

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Speaker 2: States Senate is up to United States senators to explain this.

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Speaker 1: They used to have joined statements saying the evidence didn't

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Speaker 1: meet the threshold he took the cash.

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Speaker 2: They're not denying this, and they're not going to break

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Speaker 2: charges because he's a friend. Right, we all know this.

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Speaker 2: They're not saying that part of it. If I promise you,

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Speaker 2: if this were oh, let's let's do you know, let's

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Speaker 2: say this work somebody that had been working for Kamala

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Speaker 2: Harris on her campaign taking a bribery. Do you think

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Speaker 2: they would just drop these charges because the person is

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Speaker 2: no longer in a position to agree to contracts. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is sort of the bizarre stated reason for doing this,

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Speaker 2: but it's something else. Right, And here's the thing. None

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Speaker 2: of us are going to be surprised by this, right,

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Speaker 2: the amount of and in fact, fifty thousand dollars of

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Speaker 2: small potatoes. Look at all of the pay to play

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Speaker 2: that we've already seen in this administration, whether it's pay

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Speaker 2: to pay to corporations all right, look at his inaugural fund,

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Speaker 2: pay to play, and diplomacy cutter, and the plane that

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Speaker 2: eventually goes to the Trump Library, the shakedown of ABC

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Speaker 2: that gave money to the library, the shakedown of CBS,

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Speaker 2: which gave him also some more money to that the

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Speaker 2: crypto industry, which has basically been just lavishing all sorts

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Speaker 2: of investment opportunities on the Trump family, just so that

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Speaker 2: as president he will legalize as much of the crypto

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Speaker 2: industry as possible, trying to make a bunch of wealth

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Speaker 2: that we weren't sure was going to exist or not

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Speaker 2: depending on various regulatory rules. So fifty thousand dollars is

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Speaker 2: small potatoes, but sometimes some stories are sticky because of

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Speaker 2: some of the details and the details that it's in

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Speaker 2: a kava bag the Mediterranean fast food restaurant. It's one

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Speaker 2: of those that probably means this will stick for a while.

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Speaker 2: So see that story that percolated, and again they are

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Speaker 2: just wiping it away because they can so once again

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Speaker 2: undermining the credibility of the rule of law. Right, if

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Speaker 2: you're a friend of the president, the law doesn't apply

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Speaker 2: to you. If you're an enemy to the president, they're

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Speaker 2: going to look for ways to use the law to

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Speaker 2: punish you. It's pretty simple. We're seeing it now. Tom

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Speaker 2: Holman is caught on tape doing this. They're dropping charges.

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Speaker 2: They don't have enough evidence to go indict Leticia James

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Speaker 2: for mortgage fraud.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't care.

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Speaker 2: They don't have enough evidence to get anything on James Comy,

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Speaker 2: he doesn't care. They don't have enough evidence to get

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Speaker 2: anything on Adam Schiff.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't care.

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Speaker 2: He just wants and you know, he actually just wants

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Speaker 2: them to go through a court case. He even said

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Speaker 2: that during a gaggle about this he was he was

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Speaker 2: asked a little bit about it, and he simply said, look,

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Speaker 2: you know, if they're they're innocent, they're innocent, but they

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Speaker 2: need to go through this, right.

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Speaker 1: That's that's really what.

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Speaker 2: This is about for him, right, is that in his head,

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Speaker 2: they have to go rule this. And then it brings

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Speaker 2: us to a third story here, which I think is

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Speaker 2: a huge challenge, direct challenge to the Constitution. And that

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Speaker 2: is and it's trying to and I want people to

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Speaker 2: understand the timeline.

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Speaker 1: So the Pentagon.

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Speaker 2: Has put into place a new me I'm gonna I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna be generous here and call it a tighter press

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Speaker 2: access policy. And what it does is that they want

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Speaker 2: to require credentialed Pentagon reporters to quote, to get permission

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Speaker 2: or sign a pledge before reporting any information that's gathered

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Speaker 2: inside the building, including some unclassified material that would give

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Speaker 2: the Defense Department brought authority to revoke.

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Speaker 1: Passes for violations.

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Speaker 2: So basically, if you have somebody in the Pentagon that says, hey,

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Speaker 2: this something little shady's going on here, and you get

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Speaker 2: a leaked document, I help you finish the reporting your story,

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Speaker 2: which is frankly, I had to say, is pre standard

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Speaker 2: operating procedure for any reporter. Right, we never get any

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Speaker 2: official documents from the government. It's usually some whistle blower

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Speaker 2: or sometimes the staffer that you know. Maybe they want

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Speaker 2: to do the right thing, or maybe they just want

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Speaker 2: to get their boss right. I don't know what their

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Speaker 2: motive is to leak, but if the information is solid,

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Speaker 2: it helps you report a story. What the Pentagon wants

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Speaker 2: to do is criminalize that. And if you get caught

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Speaker 2: doing it, then they want to get you off the

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Speaker 2: premises completely. Now you might ask why now, right, we

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Speaker 2: already know that there's been all right, that Pete Haggs

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Speaker 2: at the Secretary Defense has been getting some terrible press

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Speaker 2: and I for you know, we have the weird where

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Speaker 2: he shared classified material on a signal and a lot

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Speaker 2: of that came from leaks, and he started firing people

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Speaker 2: that he thought were leaking. So now instead of trying

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Speaker 2: to fire the leakers, because I think he realized that

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Speaker 2: that was sort of a game of whack a mole

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Speaker 2: that he would never win.

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Speaker 1: Could they just simply.

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Speaker 2: Get rid of the reporters from the Pentagon right, thinking

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Speaker 2: that that will somehow prevent people from leaking. Buddy, I

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Speaker 2: could tell you, you know, the more you try to stop this,

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Speaker 2: the more it's only going to encourage people to find

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Speaker 2: other ways to get these things, other ways.

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Speaker 1: To leak these out.

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Speaker 2: But I do think it's a pretty important to understand

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Speaker 2: a bit of the timeline of this story, okay, because

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Speaker 2: I think there's a real reason why this happened when

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Speaker 2: it happened. Let me give you this timeline on September seventeenth,

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Speaker 2: last week, So this is just so where am I

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Speaker 2: at here? So last Thursday was September excuse me? Last

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Speaker 2: Wednesday was September seventeenth. The Wall Street Journal published the

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Speaker 2: phone report. Pentagon lawyers raised concerns over Trump's strikes on

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Speaker 2: alleged drug boats, these Venezuelan drug boats, where the military

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Speaker 2: has been launching strikes against these boats without any congressional

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Speaker 2: authority whatsoever. They claimed some authority having to do loosely

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Speaker 2: if because they've somehow designated these posts as narco terrorists,

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Speaker 2: and that this falls under the same thing that would

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Speaker 2: allow them to go after al Qaeda and things like that.

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Speaker 2: On September nineteenth, the Washington Post reported on legal concerns,

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Speaker 2: internal legal concerns about the strikes themselves, Pentagon officials voicing

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Speaker 2: uneasiness that their opinions, their legal opinions about whether these

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Speaker 2: extra judicial killings were legal or not, that they were

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Speaker 2: being sidelined. That happened on September nineteenth, and when did

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Speaker 2: this story come out? On these new roles, So that

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Speaker 2: story came out in the nineteenth, which means the reporting

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Speaker 2: happened on the eighteenth, and lo and behold, on the nineteenth.

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Speaker 1: The Pentagon press secretary decides.

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Speaker 2: To come up with these new roles because what were

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Speaker 2: the important sources of these stories to both the Journal

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Speaker 2: and the Post. It was classified Pentagon information from people

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Speaker 2: that worked at the Pentagon.

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Speaker 1: These reporters did not get permission from there.

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Speaker 2: The person who runs the press shop there, Sean Parnell,

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Speaker 2: And therefore they wanted to create a situation where that

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Speaker 2: if you somehow used anonymous sources or classified material that

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Speaker 2: was not approved. Again, I don't know in what part

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Speaker 2: of a free country with a free press that this

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Speaker 2: would be a situation that would be acceptable. They suddenly

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Speaker 2: put out these new rules. So what this is really

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Speaker 2: about is they don't want they don't want there to

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Speaker 2: be stories that there are a lot of people raising

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Speaker 2: legal questions about whether the president has the authority to

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Speaker 2: just drop bombs on a boat. He decides to tell

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Speaker 2: people in the Caribbean, is we know they're narco terrorists.

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Speaker 2: How do you know, Well, we just know what's your evidence.

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Speaker 2: Don't worry about it. Oh, we saw the evidence once

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Speaker 2: we blew it up. There were floating bales of fentanyl

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Speaker 2: and things like that. Again, this stuff fell legal. This

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Speaker 2: stuff's unconstitutional. He does not have the authority to do this.

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Speaker 2: I promise you that if at some point right somebody

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Speaker 2: is going to have a due process, it's going to

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Speaker 2: bring a case before our court system, it'll be some

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Speaker 2: family member of somebody who was killed on one of

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Speaker 2: those both, and I don't think they're going to have

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Speaker 2: very good legal standing on any of them. So once again,

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Speaker 2: to understand I just want to make it clear what

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Speaker 2: the legal questions are involving these these bombings of these boats.

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Speaker 2: Is there authority under US law or international law? Right now,

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Speaker 2: it is unclear if there's any legal basis for these strikes.

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Speaker 2: The use of legal force in international waters against unarmed

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Speaker 2: or not obviously armed boats carrying drugs rather than weapons

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Speaker 2: has been extraordinarily unusual. It's something we haven't seen. There

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Speaker 2: was no attempt to board these boats, arrest, right, extradite.

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Speaker 2: That would have perhaps given a little more clarity as

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Speaker 2: to what would be allowed and whatnot under the law

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Speaker 2: of war or the doctrine of self defense. There usually

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Speaker 2: needs to be an imminent threat, and there's no clear

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Speaker 2: imminent threat now. I think that the President would say

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Speaker 2: the threat of these drugs coming into the United States

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Speaker 2: was going to harm more Americans, and that is the

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Speaker 2: imminent quote imminent threat standard that he believes that this

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Speaker 2: could be met with. But if these strikes are accepted

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Speaker 2: without scrutiny, it could lower the bar for what military

437
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 2: force in similar international waters could be done without any

438
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 2: sort of judicial process, And we already may be seeing

439
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 2: a huge misuse of this.

440
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: And where does it end?

441
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: Right If there is no court scrutiny over this, no

442
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 2: congressional scrutiny of this. We know very little about this.

443
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 2: There's been very little interest in Congress on trying to

444
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 2: get some oversight about what they're doing. So it's it's

445
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 2: and by the way, now Trump is in this, everything

446
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: always goes back to immigration. So over the weekend, Trump

447
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: issued a warning to Venezuela on true social and he

448
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 2: said that the nation immediately must accept all the prisoners

449
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: and people from mental institutions, which includes the worst of

450
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: the world insane asylums that Venezuelan leadership has forced in

451
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: the United States of America, or you will pay. The

452
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: price you pay will be incalculable. So basically what he's

453
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 2: saying is, hey, I'll stop these.

454
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: Bombings if you take.

455
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 2: A bunch of these Venezuelans that we're trying to deport,

456
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 2: if you want to take a back. Now, by the way,

457
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: this whole weirdness of Trump, I think it's looking more

458
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: and more likely he just doesn't understand what the word

459
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: asylum means. These folks were seeking asylum in the United States.

460
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: I think he hears the word asylum and assumes insane

461
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 2: asylum and so this is why he has Maybe he

462
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: does it on purpose, but I don't think he has.

463
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: He probably would claim he's doing it on purpose now,

464
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 2: but he seems to conflate those seeking asylum with people

465
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: who are mentally ill and who quote unquote belonged to

466
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 2: an insalem silum. So in his head, all of these

467
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 2: folks seeking asylum in the United States were somehow released

468
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: from Venezuelan insane asylums. I know you're thinking that can't

469
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 2: be the case, and I'm saying it's Donald Trump.

470
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: The likelihood of this being the case is extraordinary high.

471
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 2: Nobody out there is no evidence that any of these

472
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: folks or what he claims has happened in any of

473
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 2: these countries. This is what Castro did in the late seventies.

474
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 2: That now Castro did this. He emptied out his prisons

475
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: in order to try to in order to try to

476
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 2: cause problems for us here in the United States. The

477
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 2: so called marri Lee took boat lift. But that's the

478
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,479
Speaker 2: last time something like that happened. So we've had all

479
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 2: these things, right, We've had Trump weaponizing the FCC against

480
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: the press with Brendan Carr. We have Trump weaponizing the

481
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: Department of Justice against his political enemies. We have him

482
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: firing a US attorney because this US attorney won't bring

483
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 2: charges just because the US attorney was following the law,

484
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 2: so he was fired for following the law. We've got

485
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: a Pentagon that's trying to essentially kick out the press

486
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: for doing its job, on top of all of the

487
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 2: other concerns that we've had about his his inability to

488
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: follow the Constitution. Now, what's been interesting here is on

489
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 2: the issue of Brendan Carr in free speech. You've had

490
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: three Republican senators who normally don't come out and criticize

491
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: him very often, all criticized Car hard on this one,

492
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: Ted Cruz, Ran Paul and David McCormick, the freshman Republican

493
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: senator from Pennsylvania. The point is that while I know

494
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: there are fewer Republicans willing to publicly stand up to

495
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 2: Donald Trump right now than there were in the first term,

496
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: because look at what happened in the first term, and

497
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 2: there's no doubt he has been on a systematic purge

498
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: of anybody he thinks might question him. He wants them out,

499
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: he tries to primary them, he tries to pressure them,

500
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: not to run for reelection.

501
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: He tries to whatever it takes.

502
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: He doesn't want anybody with an R next to their

503
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 2: name looking like they can be an obstacle to his

504
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 2: agenda or his revenge or whatever it is that he's

505
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: trying to do. But he's getting so aggressive now that

506
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: I do think you're going to find out which conservatives

507
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: have principles and which don't. Right, we learned who the

508
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: principled conservatives were during Trump one point zero, Liz Janey, John.

509
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: Fulton, Jeff Blake, Bob Corker.

510
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: We can go down the list, right, and we're starting

511
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: to learn those that believe that are uncomfortable abandoning their

512
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: principles for Donald Trump. They've abandoned some of them for

513
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: some time. You might argue, but Ted Cruz is uncomfortable.

514
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 2: Ran Paul's uncomfortable. Dave McCormick's uncomfortable. Where's this going to

515
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 2: keep going?

516
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: Right?

517
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 2: Bill Cassidy doesn't like what's happening inside of HHS.

518
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: So one thing that I would.

519
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 2: Keep a real eye on here, And the reason I'm

520
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: bringing all these stories together and leaning with him because

521
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: I know in some cases you think, ah, you know

522
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: you and others with your Trump derangement syndrome. You're always saying,

523
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: look at what Trump's doing, watch out, this is going

524
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: to be terrible. But what he really has is he's

525
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 2: numbed us. Just some things that are happening that are

526
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: really terrible. And if we if we do what we're

527
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: doing here, as you can see, you can't hope that

528
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: the next time Democrats get put in charge that they're

529
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: not going to that they're not going to be Democrats

530
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: who decide, hey, I'm going to be my own Trump.

531
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: In fact, I had an interesting.

532
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: Conversation with a frustrated progressive few a few weeks ago

533
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: who said, I want my own Trump, who will go

534
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 2: in there and do this, this and this, and you know,

535
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: forget trying to play nice, and forget trying to do

536
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: these things and so. And it was in actually that

537
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: spirit that Ted Cruz came out pretty strong against Brendan

538
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: Carr by basically saying, this is eventually going to be

539
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: bad for conservatives. Look, as I've said on the media,

540
00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 2: the original sin on this was the the less we

541
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 2: have to push to get Trump and anybody associated with

542
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: January sixth purged from Twitter and Facebook and polite society.

543
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: And I know that felt good in the moment, but

544
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: it ended up doing a couple of things that have

545
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: actually brought us to now a worse moment than where

546
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: we were four years ago.

547
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: Right. Moment.

548
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: Number one that it brought us to is that you

549
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: have we now have a Trump created his own information ecosystem.

550
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: He has no sort of.

551
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: There's no sort of pushback happening anymore in that world.

552
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: He doesn't have the same conversation we don't. His folks

553
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: are having a conversation over here. Trump opponents are having

554
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: a conversation over there. Nobody's talking to each other. Everybody's

555
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: talking past each other. And literally we have harder silos

556
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: and more bubbles because of this, not less bubbles. But

557
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: it was also you know, hey, be careful you push

558
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: you go down that road, and you're going to get

559
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 2: you know, political physics will kick in, right, you will

560
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:13,719
Speaker 2: get an equally harsh and opposite reaction. So that's what

561
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: I would be keeping an eye out for. I think

562
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: what's happening with Tom Homan. I think there are going

563
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: to be some some elected Republicans who think, hey, maybe

564
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: you should release we should know more about this, Maybe

565
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: he shouldn't be in the White House. Maybe there is

566
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: something more to this. I think when it comes to

567
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: what he's trying to do with Pam BONDI in ordering

568
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 2: her to get indictments, that you will have others that

569
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: will start pushing back on that. So I think that

570
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: you know, in you know, in some ways this over

571
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 2: the summer and you start to see it now. Donald

572
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: Trump's getting impatient, right. He wants to just he just

573
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: wants all this, all of his revenge to happen, all

574
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,479
Speaker 2: of his retribution to happen. He wants every thing his

575
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: way now. And he seems to be speeding up that process, right,

576
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: He seems to be in a hurry. But I think

577
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 2: he's getting sloppy about it, and I think in some

578
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 2: ways he's starting to He's starting to acquire some enemies

579
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 2: that I think he's going to regret. He's starting You're

580
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: starting to see independence bail on him. His numbers are

581
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 2: going down, and all of this is just accumulating.

582
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: Right.

583
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: It's no one story is going to take down Donald Trump.

584
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 2: But in the same sort of reasons why the country

585
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 2: moved on from Trump the first time, he's exhausting his supporters.

586
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: He's making those that are sort of Trump skeptics but

587
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: decided to join the Trump team. More and more uncomfortable

588
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 2: figuring out how to defend him. It gets harder and

589
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: harder to defend some of these crazy truth social posts

590
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 2: that he puts out there, these crazy ideas that he

591
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: throws out there, and he's getting to the point where

592
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 2: he may you know, if Republicans decide he's a political liability,

593
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: they'll throw him overboard. So far because we live in

594
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: these polarized times and because our frankly, thanks to jerry

595
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: mandering and all these things, the primary process matters more

596
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: so because he has this huge stranglehold over the base

597
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,479
Speaker 2: of the Republican Party. You're gonna have it is why

598
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 2: most elected Republicans stay silent rather than pushing back. But

599
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 2: boy is he pushing the envelope right. He went Brendan

600
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: Carr went too far, and he got people like Ted

601
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: Cruz and Ran Paul Again, we're not we're not talking

602
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, Dave McCormick again, not not

603
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: talking Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins or Don Bacon.

604
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 1: Okay, so.

605
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: All of these things should be alarming. A normal legislative

606
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 2: brand would look at this regardless of party and say, hey,

607
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: we need some douce, some more oversight. I'm not that

608
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 2: Pollyannist just to think that's going to happen. But he's

609
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: putting more and more Republicans in uncomfortable positions, and I

610
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 2: think you're going to start. This is why his numbers

611
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 2: are eroding, and this is why suddenly you've seen a

612
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 2: few more Republican voices speaking out that maybe three months

613
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: ago people didn't expect to see. All Right, coming up,

614
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: I got an interview with a terrific historian an author

615
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: named Caleb Gaiale. This is the story of an attempt

616
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 2: back in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century

617
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 2: by somebody who the book is called Black Moses. It's

618
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: a saga of ambition and the fight for a black state.

619
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: A gentleman by the name of Edward McCabe was a

620
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: black political leader and he was trying to make Oklahoma.

621
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 2: At the time, it was a territory, but he had

622
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: this plan to try to make Oklahoma essentially a black state.

623
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: It's a fascinating story. Caleb's a terrific historian and a

624
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: terrific storyteller. And you know me I'm a sucker for

625
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 2: something like, Wow, I knew a little something, but I

626
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 2: didn't know all of this, And in this case, I

627
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 2: knew a very little something, not much on this, and

628
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: so I really think you're gonna enjoy this conversation. Today

629
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: is Monday, which also means you get my history lesson

630
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: for the day that'll come up after the Caleb Gail interview.

631
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 2: Let me just say it's a fun one. We're not

632
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 2: playing chess, we're playing checkers, but I will tell you

633
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: about it after the Caleb the Caleb Gayla interview, and

634
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 2: then of course i'll give you my football round up.

635
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: So with that, let's sneak in a break.

636
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: For those of you listening on the All In in

637
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 2: Everything in one download episode.

638
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 1: We'll sneak in a break and you'll get the interview

639
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: with Caleb jack.

640
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 2: Well. Joining me now is a journalist and historian Caleb Gaale.

641
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 2: Caleb specializes, if you will, He's written for all sorts

642
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 2: of major news organizations, but in many ways he specializes

643
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 2: in what I would call hidden history, undiscovered history, or

644
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,760
Speaker 2: underwritten I think discovers the wrong word there, underwritten history.

645
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: And as you know, we love that here at the podcast.

646
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 2: The most recent book he's got is called Black Moses

647
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 2: Saga of Ambition and the Fight for a Black State.

648
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,720
Speaker 2: Caleb is from Oklahoma, spends a lot of time talking

649
00:38:52,760 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 2: about essentially buried history, particularly among African Americans in the

650
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 2: state of Oklahoma. And this book is about how what

651
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 2: is now Oklahoma?

652
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: What? What this?

653
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 3: What?

654
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: The character in this book, Black Moses, wanted to create

655
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 2: essentially a black state.

656
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: And so Caleb joins me. Now, Caleb, nice to meet you.

657
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 3: Nice to meet you as well. John.

658
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 2: Look, I think this is this is why you know,

659
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 2: I always call myself a history junkie, not a political junkie.

660
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: I refer to myself more as a political anthropologist these

661
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: days than a political analyst, because I do think it's

662
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: sort of when you say, you look at it like

663
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 2: an anthropologist, you can sometimes understand different tribes, right, So

664
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: we're going to call it different political tribes, ideological tribes.

665
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 2: But this is a fascinating story, and I look, I'd

666
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 2: love to know more about it, but let me start

667
00:39:52,440 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 2: with what got you into essentially becoming h history writer,

668
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 2: a history biographer of sorts.

669
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think a lot of journalists

670
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 3: probably should learn a lot from anthropologists about how to

671
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 3: do work.

672
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 2: Right, how to be observers right, what of our joy

673
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: is to observe, and an anthropologist that's what they do best.

674
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 3: Certainly, certainly, Yes, I mean I think that my interest

675
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 3: in history really comes from my annoyance as a child.

676
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 3: I was always known as the kid who just wasn't

677
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 3: satisfied knowing that this is the way things are. I

678
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 3: had to kind of know how we got there. And

679
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 3: I think in part because I'm the son and grandson

680
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 3: of black pastors, there's always this hinge and inflection in

681
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 3: their voice as they kind of reflect on where we

682
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 3: have come. And so as such, my brain is just

683
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 3: kind of hardwired, maybe even my heart spiritually, I guess

684
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 3: it's hardwired to kind of examine how we got from

685
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 3: point at a point being not satisfied living at point

686
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 3: B without understanding point A, and then growing up in Oklahoma,

687
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 3: your history is kind of stripped down to the most

688
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 3: hageographic parts, right, the most jinguistic parts, And so we

689
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 3: could talk more about it, but the I had always

690
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 3: felt like I was missing part of the plot and

691
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 3: being told to be satisfied with point B as opposed

692
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 3: to understanding how we got there.

693
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 2: Well, look, I feel like just in the last fifteen years,

694
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:37,720
Speaker 2: you know, I continue to hear about stories, particularly about

695
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: African American communities in the South, And you're sitting there going,

696
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: why didn't we know more about this? Why wasn't I

697
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: you know, I grew up in Florida. There's a there's

698
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 2: a in the in Oklahoma. There's the infamous Tulsa massacre.

699
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: In Florida, there's axe Handel Sunday, which took place in Jacksonville.

700
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 2: And here was something like at an entire year in

701
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 2: middle school dedicated to Florida history. We talked about some

702
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 2: of the Native American tribes, we talked about some of

703
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: the history of Florida being part of the Confederacy, and

704
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: things like that.

705
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: They didn't tell us about Acxandel.

706
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 2: Sunday, right and and in the and I'm growing up

707
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: a white child. Right here, you're a black child realizing

708
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 2: I'm not being told the full history. And now you're

709
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 2: doing something about it, which you know this is you know,

710
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 2: we all learn a little bit more, which then helps us,

711
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: uh explain you know this, the story of America is

712
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 2: not a straight line us, as.

713
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: We all know.

714
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: So let's dive in to Black Moses. When did you

715
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 2: discover this story? Tell me tell me your discovery of

716
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: this story and then and then how you dug into it.

717
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,479
Speaker 3: So I initially heard of Edward McCabe years and years

718
00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 3: ago where I was once undergrad University Oklahoma, and before

719
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 3: I kind of jetted off to like not return to

720
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 3: Oklahoma ever again. Initially, as was the hope of every

721
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 3: kid growing up in Oklahoma, I remember going to Langston, Oklahoma,

722
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:12,959
Speaker 3: which is the town that he founded, but it's also

723
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 3: home to Langston University, the furthest west HBCU in the country,

724
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 3: and there aren't many hotels there, even though we were

725
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 3: there for a sense of their party. We went to Gushree, Oklahoma,

726
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 3: which is right next to it, and there's this large

727
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 3: sign in the middle of main street that sayes Edward P. McCabe.

728
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 3: And as I read it and kind of this this

729
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 3: pixotic vision of a black state in the United States

730
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 3: of America, I kind of just assumed that man McCabe

731
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 3: must have been a very well meaning irishman because of

732
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 3: his last name, and kind of dismissed it. But I

733
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 3: had grown up when we moved to Oklahoma from New York,

734
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 3: where I was born, we moved there. I justtinctly remember. Again,

735
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 3: my dissatisfaction was just living in the present. Don'tunderstand how

736
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 3: we got here. I thinkly remember we went to this

737
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 3: place called Walmart. We had never been there before growing

738
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 3: up in the Bronx, and I just remember a family

739
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 3: of black folks on horseback who then pulled up to

740
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 3: the Walmart on their horses, tied it to the rail outside,

741
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 3: did their shopping, got back on their horses and left.

742
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 3: And it felt to me that like, even though I

743
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 3: wasn't hearing it in my Texas.

744
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: So it's like a movie set, like you're like right,

745
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: because you.

746
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 2: Just don't see that, especially a kid coming from the

747
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 2: from New York City, right exactly.

748
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 3: And so to me, it felt as if those those

749
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 3: moments in aggregate, and there are many more of them

750
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 3: that I won't go into, felt as if they were

751
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 3: kind of haunting me, especially as I was becoming more

752
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 3: and more obsessed with history, that I had to figure

753
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 3: out a way. I knew that somehow they were in

754
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,240
Speaker 3: some way connected. And then in doing my first book,

755
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 3: I realized that there were a bunch of black citizens

756
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 3: of these varied in dish nations Cherokee Creek that were

757
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 3: writing these letters, these letters about how amazing it was

758
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 3: to be black in Indian Territory, and noticed that some

759
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 3: of the correspondents contained the same guy that I had

760
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 3: heard about nearly twenty years before, named Edward McCabe. And

761
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 3: suddenly it felt like, oh goodness, there's some connective, connective

762
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 3: tissue between these varied experiences, like the facts that in Oklahoma,

763
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 3: if you want to go to a real rodeo, you

764
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 3: go to the black rodeo. If you want to see

765
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 3: what it's like to see people cow ranching, well you

766
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 3: go to places like Taft and other places where black

767
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 3: people have been honing these sorts of cultural totems for

768
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 3: so very long. And so that's when I was like, Okay,

769
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 3: there's a connection here. But then when I actually dug

770
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 3: into who this Edward McCabe guy was and found out

771
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 3: that he was a polarizing, relatively narcissistic dreamer. Who doesn't

772
00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 3: want a book about someone who was controversial. You want

773
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 3: a controversial figure who said a lot of things that

774
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 3: angered and pissed off a lot of people, but then

775
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 3: also still harbored this dream that felt quintessentially American, which

776
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 3: is to find a place to belong.

777
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 4: Right.

778
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 3: That's when I became an obsessive for five years until

779
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 3: you have what you have in front of you, which

780
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 3: is the book right before we.

781
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 2: Get to McKay trace the the origins of the of

782
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 2: black communities in Oklahoma and the relationship with various tribes.

783
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 2: You know, you throughout time you'd hear stories that they

784
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 2: were sort of almost like, well, the the white man's

785
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 2: the enemy of these Native American tribes, and so there

786
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: is in some ways shared, you know, the enemy of

787
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: my enemy is my friend type of mindset. Is that

788
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 2: how you would describe the sort of the initial sort

789
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: of acceptance of black of blacks with the Native American

790
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 2: tribes of Oklahoma.

791
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,439
Speaker 3: That's that's a great question to answer. It is as

792
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 3: distinctly as I can. Angidbo, this phenomenal historian who who

793
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 3: lived many many moons ago, wrote about discovered some of

794
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 3: the initial work of what was known as the Cousta tribe,

795
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 3: which was around your parts of the country in Florida,

796
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 3: who interacted with a bunch of Spanish explorers who also

797
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 3: had a lot of black slaves. Those black slaves escaped

798
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 3: and those Cousta adopted them into their nation. Those Cousta

799
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 3: eventually then became federated within what we now considered the

800
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 3: Creek Nation, one of the largest indigest nations in the country.

801
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 3: But the reality is is that when we look at,

802
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 3: for instance, like Betrayal of Tears, a sizable percentage, sometimes

803
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 3: people range that anywhere between roughly ten to twelve percent

804
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 3: up to like twenty five percent of the people who

805
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 3: were on that trail of Indian removal to actually the

806
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 3: people of African descent, some of whom were adopted fully

807
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 3: as citizens, some of who have never been slaves, some

808
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 3: of whom were slaves from these indigenous nations. But then

809
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 3: also that that also had something to do with that.

810
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 3: That wasn't the only way Black people became familiar with

811
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 3: or migrated to Oklahoma. Right, A lot of times people

812
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 3: were in trance with the idea of going west, in

813
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 3: part because the situation post reconstruction in America had worsened

814
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 3: so much that a lot of black people escaped and

815
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 3: often times suddenly to Kansas. In part because Kansas was

816
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 3: admitted as a free state. You had the legacy of

817
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 3: John Brown, you had a significant Quaker movement that was

818
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 3: actively organizing for educating and employing black people. So there

819
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 3: are myriad ways in which black people became quite keen

820
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 3: on settling parts of the American West.

821
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 1: All right, So now bring me to mister McKay. How

822
00:48:58,760 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 1: does he how does he get to Okla?

823
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 3: Sure? I mean, mister McCabe is very much unlike a

824
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 3: lot of the people that we just talked about, right,

825
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 3: never enslaved, highly educated, grew up while the Civil War

826
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 3: was raging, while reconstruction was waxing and waning. He was

827
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 3: getting educated all over New England. He was working as

828
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 3: a clerk on Wall Street. He was working as a

829
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 3: clerk to people like Potter Palmer in Chicago, who, for

830
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 3: those of your Midwestern listeners will know who that is

831
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 3: because he was the hotel king of State Street, launched

832
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 3: the careers of Marshall Fields, right, And those are the

833
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 3: people that McCabe was covorting with. But he realized in

834
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 3: all of those places that his ambition would be cast right,

835
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 3: his dreams would be limited, relegated to his station. And

836
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 3: so initially he goes to Kansas with his best friend

837
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 3: at Hall Junior. And when he gets to Kansas, he

838
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 3: doesn't go to the places that are high were populated, Topeka,

839
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 3: so on and so forth. He goes really far west,

840
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 3: and having gone there on several occasions, I can tell

841
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 3: you it is really far west, in a place called Nicodemus,

842
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 3: and what quickly is initially a landing pad becomes his

843
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 3: launching pad for power. He quickly becomes state auditor of Kansas,

844
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 3: the very first black state elected official in a state

845
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 3: wide elected official in the Old West. And from there

846
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 3: we start to really see a guy who's a political tactician.

847
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: Where are we on the calendar? Is this that?

848
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

849
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, yeah, So no.

850
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 3: That makes in the late eighteen seventies, early eighteen eighties,

851
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 3: got it.

852
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: In which reconstruction is basically gone after the seventy sixth deal,

853
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 2: And there was definitely a lot of tumults with exactly,

854
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,800
Speaker 2: especially in the in the world of black elites in

855
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: the northern part of.

856
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 3: The country exactly. And so what you see is is

857
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 3: he people pouring into places like Kansas saying, you know,

858
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 3: we've tried Lincoln, We've tried Jackson, and quite frankly, every

859
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 3: man is his own Moses. Now, every man is his

860
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 3: own Moses. And into this void steps people life. McCabe,

861
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 3: who isn't really offering necessarily these like heroic, very intangible,

862
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 3: esoteric visions of what Black America can strive for. He's

863
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 3: much more of a hard nosed political tactician, and he

864
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 3: runs for office multiple times, wins multiple times, and on

865
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,760
Speaker 3: his third opportunity, despite his sterling record on account of racism,

866
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 3: if he fails, but people, a lot of black people,

867
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 3: but then also very powerful US senators as we approached

868
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 3: the mid eighteen eighties, started to whisper in his ear

869
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 3: that there might be an opportunity for black people in Oklahoma,

870
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 3: in the Oklahoma territory, and they start pushing it. Kansas

871
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 3: Republicans get behind him. Quite a few of the Republicans

872
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 3: fro around the country get behind him. And that's when,

873
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 3: as Oklahoma's becoming opened again through some really awful activities

874
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 3: on behalf of the United dis Government towards indigenous nations,

875
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 3: that's the precise opportunity that a lot of folks start

876
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 3: to whisper and then yell loudly in the cave's ear

877
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 3: that this is our chance. If you can just get

878
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 3: enough black people to get to this state, you'll be

879
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 3: an undeniable force where you too can become the governor

880
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 3: of the very first black state in the Union. And

881
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 3: that's the argument he makes even to President Benjamin Harrison.

882
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: Well that's interesting ambition.

883
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 3: So what.

884
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 2: Is I guess Step one is trying to get the

885
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,959
Speaker 2: word out to convince black Americans to come to Oklahoma.

886
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: How does he do it?

887
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 3: Yeah? Again, it's always good to have a main subject

888
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 3: or character who is really narcissistic and knows no bounds

889
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 3: to his own ambition. So he moves there. That's one.

890
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 3: He starts up his own newspaper. He starts to leverage

891
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 3: these immigrations.

892
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: Where is he in Oklahoma? Where is he specifically?

893
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 3: Yeah?

894
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I mean at.

895
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 3: This point, he goes to a place that's roughly about

896
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 3: fifteen miles roughly outside of Oklahoma City, ok So, a

897
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 3: place called Guthrie. And from Guthrie he goes just to

898
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 3: touch north to Langston, Oklahoma. And then he at that

899
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 3: point it's not Langston, it's just a place, and he

900
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,760
Speaker 3: names it Langston after people he admires John Mercer Langston.

901
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 3: It begins to name all the streets after the first

902
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 3: US senator to become first black US senator to serve

903
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 3: a full turn off for being elected Lanche Bruce. He

904
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 3: starts to kind of sell his wares before anything is built,

905
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 3: that there's going to be a university. He says that

906
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 3: the Waldorf family has given him twenty five thousand dollars

907
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 3: to start a university. He says, we're going to be schools.

908
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 3: There are no schools yet. But he also fans.

909
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 2: Down like the music man a little bit, like, you know,

910
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 2: I'm gonna build it, you know.

911
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: Here we go here in.

912
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:08,879
Speaker 3: River City, right, And he and the thing is, though

913
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 3: he kind of doesn't just evinced, but kind of puts

914
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 3: into practice the build and they will come right, and

915
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 3: they did, right, And he founds more towns and more

916
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 3: settlements and other larger white towns that were more menable

917
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 3: to having black people there. And then he also in

918
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 3: fact gets appointed to become the treasurer and auditor of

919
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 3: this new territory as well. Right, so he's and this

920
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,240
Speaker 3: is the territory. It's not a state yet, correct. In fact,

921
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 3: there are two territories at the time, right, Indian Territory

922
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 3: to the east, right, and the Oklahoma Territory to the west.

923
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 3: And he's making his pitch because he knew, like others

924
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 3: knew that the United States government it was inevitable that

925
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 3: they would combine the tow into a large state. And

926
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 3: he thought you could just get enough black people with

927
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 3: two thousand agents that he dispatches throughout the American South

928
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 3: and North, that perhaps he can makes the big especially

929
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,760
Speaker 3: because people like Benjamin Harrison didn't give him the ultimate

930
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 3: green light that this would be his state.

931
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 2: So so then what happened? I guess, I you know,

932
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 2: hate to just make it a simple question. So he's

933
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 2: got this ambition, he's got this dream. Let's start with

934
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 2: Benjamin Harrison. It's politically in his interests, it's in the

935
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 2: interests of the of the Republican Party of that time

936
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:28,240
Speaker 2: to make this happen.

937
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 1: So what's the hesitation?

938
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 3: So many hesitations. The reality isn't to your point for

939
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 3: the listeners. I mean, there had been long standing efforts

940
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 3: to try and figure out how to deal with this

941
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 3: quote unquote Negro problem. Right, And as you'll see in

942
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 3: the book, for those of you who pick it up,

943
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 3: it's you'll go to Haiti, You'll go to Liberity, you

944
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 3: go to Columbia, you go to southern Texas and Mexico

945
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 3: all in the effort to try and figure out a place.

946
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 3: So McKay theoretically should have been able to say, well,

947
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 3: let me do this. But the reality is that he

948
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 3: was the wrong person to be asking let me do this.

949
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 3: I would possibly wize, right, okay, what made him the

950
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 3: wrong person? Did he just not have well, you tell

951
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 3: me what made him the wrong person? Sure? I mean one,

952
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 3: I think he was black. That's one strike against him,

953
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 3: and not to be reductive, But there had been many

954
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,879
Speaker 3: other attempts, and not successful ones, but ones in which

955
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 3: people were able to convince even our most vaunted president,

956
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 3: right Abraham Lincoln, to write a pre massive check to

957
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 3: send a bunch of black people to hate. But that

958
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 3: was under the leadership of a white guy. Two. Not

959
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:38,919
Speaker 3: only was it because he was black, it was also

960
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 3: because he also wanted to dictate the terms under which

961
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 3: this would happen. Right. Three, there were a lot of

962
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 3: other competing interests. I think this is what makes their

963
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 3: residence to today, is that Oklahoma might be seen as

964
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 3: this place where dreams go to die. It's really where

965
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 3: dreams go to collide. There are a lot of poor

966
00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 3: white immigrants who are being told the same thing that

967
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 3: black people were being told, the same thing that others

968
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 3: were being told rich people as well, that this could

969
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 3: be the place for you to belong. You might have

970
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 3: belonged anywhere else, but here's the place. And so there

971
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 3: were massive efforts to also paint in the Cave as

972
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 3: a Negro supremacist, as a scary boogeyman that might be anti.

973
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: White, that it was more than just creating. Was there

974
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: evidence that.

975
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 3: He was, you know, and to that end, right, he

976
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 3: didn't help himself. Right again, you want a guy who's

977
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 3: really controversial. So he would say things like, I would

978
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 3: like for this place to be a place where white

979
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 3: people are tolerated at a minimum. He would say things

980
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 3: like we will have Negro state officers, Negro senators, Negro congressmen,

981
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 3: Negro teachers, Negro lawyers, doctors. He would kind of list

982
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 3: all of those places, all those people. But he would

983
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 3: do so yes in many cases at the seeming exclusion

984
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 3: of white people. And he thought that this quote unquote

985
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 3: colonization scheme, the Negro colonization scheme of Oklahoma, would be

986
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 3: one that would be enticing to white people who wanted

987
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 3: to dispatch with the black people that they had but

988
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 3: in actuality he fed into some of the briar belief

989
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 3: that he might be anti white when in actuality you

990
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 3: can't find too much.

991
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 2: There's a reason results matter more than promises, just like

992
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 2: there's a reason. Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury

993
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 2: law firm. For the last thirty five years, they've recovered

994
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 2: twenty five billion dollars for more than half a million clients.

995
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 2: It includes cases where insurance companies offered next to nothing,

996
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 2: just hoping to get away with paying as little as possible.

997
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 2: Morgan and Morgan fought back ended up winning millions. In fact,

998
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania, one client was awarded twenty six million dollars,

999
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 2: which was a staggering forty times the amount that the

1000
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 2: insurance company originally offered. That original offer six hundred and

1001
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars twenty six million, six hundred and fifty

1002
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 2: thousand dollars. So with more than a thousand lawyers across

1003
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 2: the country, they know how to deliver for everyday people.

1004
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,280
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1005
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:14,840
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1006
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:20,040
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1007
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,760
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1008
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 2: are not the same. So check out Morgan and Morgan.

1009
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 2: Their fee is free unless they win. What was the

1010
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 2: role of the Creek Nation and all of this where

1011
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 2: they allied with what he was doing. I'm leading you

1012
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 2: into this because you I'm guessing your book about the

1013
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 2: Creek Nation and how many members of African descent were

1014
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 2: in it. I'm guessing these two stories collide in some way.

1015
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 3: In many ways, you know, it wasn't just a Creek

1016
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 3: Nation with the Cherokey Nation and others had varying perspectives, right.

1017
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 3: I think it's really always important to remember that these

1018
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 3: were these aren't just racial categories, but these are nations.

1019
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 3: These are people with autonomous governing structures, borders, territories, and

1020
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 3: in many cases, in the case of the Cherokee Nation,

1021
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 3: there's a really crystal clear incident among many others in

1022
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 3: the book, where there are you know, armed standoffs in

1023
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 3: the eastern portion of the Oklahoma territory in the western

1024
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 3: part of Indian Territory, where black people had been invited

1025
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 3: by seemingly black Cherokee citizens to be a part of

1026
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 3: Oklahoma in the evolving in the evolving kind of creation

1027
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 3: of what was going to become Oklahoma, and that did

1028
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 3: not it was not seems a welcome sign. You also

1029
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 3: had contemporaries of his like Alex Posey and others who

1030
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 3: were launching really nakedly racist attacks, not just on people

1031
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 3: like McKay, but even at that time their own principal chief,

1032
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 3: who was a darker skinned black man, I mean my

1033
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 3: complexion for those who might see this on video, my

1034
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 3: complexion named Legis Parriman, who himself was a dark skinned

1035
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 3: black citizen and chief of the Creek Nation. So there

1036
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 3: were a lot of competing factors where again that zero

1037
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 3: sum politics we see today was very much at work.

1038
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 2: Then, is this basically like, all right, everybody wanted control.

1039
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 2: Everybody knows this is going to become a state, and

1040
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 2: everybody wanted an old fashioned just fight for control. Right,

1041
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 2: Whether you could look at it through racial lens, you

1042
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 2: could look at it through just a power lens. Is

1043
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 2: this better to be looked at through a power lens?

1044
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 3: Certainly? And then all of those things that intersect with it, right, race,

1045
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 3: you know, tribal affiliation and citizenship, money, economic power, most certainly,

1046
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 3: all of that is interacting with who's going to be

1047
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 3: in charge, who's going to have more power? Because at

1048
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 3: the same time, these indigenous nations are also crafting their

1049
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 3: own constitution called the Saquoia Constitution, which they hope would

1050
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 3: be the invention of their own state called the Saquoia.

1051
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 3: So at the same time, there are a lot of

1052
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 3: these roots just vying for not just I think power,

1053
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 3: but like a place that would be theirs.

1054
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 2: So he runs into this, I guess what you call it?

1055
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 2: A challenge for supremacy of the of the geographic region

1056
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 2: I mean? And so when does he give up? What

1057
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 2: makes them give up? What makes them walk away?

1058
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 3: There are so many things that make him give up

1059
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 3: and go away. But the very first law that Oklahoma passes, right,

1060
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 3: you can look at like the first laws that Texas passes, Kansass, Arkansas,

1061
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 3: all these surrounding states, and they deal with some of

1062
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,880
Speaker 3: the perfunctory kind of things that would make one fall

1063
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 3: asleep hearing about the details of right, because they're so

1064
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 3: foundational to how any given place would work. Oklahoma's very

1065
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 3: very first law is a Jim Crow law. Right. That's

1066
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,080
Speaker 3: why I kind of write that Oklahoma, let much of

1067
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 3: the American West just becomes the American South and in

1068
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 3: the worst way, right, And it's the very very first law.

1069
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 3: And I mean in so doing that, plus the moving

1070
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 3: of the territory's capital to the ascendants of a lot

1071
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 3: of these members of the Oklahoma elite that end up

1072
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 3: also becoming members of the KKK and Oklahoma up to

1073
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 3: state leadership, makes it abundantly clear, especially as black people

1074
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 3: like his peers A. C. Hamlin aren't losing seats in office,

1075
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 3: that this isn't going to work for McCabe. And so

1076
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:40,440
Speaker 3: he actually pours a lot of his last dollars trying

1077
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 3: to fight that law, this Jim Crow law.

1078
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 2: So are we in now the early twentieth century, because

1079
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 2: Oklahoma state just double so when they become a when

1080
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 2: they become a state, what is McCabe's role in that?

1081
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, I mean his role is increasingly diminishing, essentially

1082
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 3: just becoming an assistant auditor of a guy who's reading

1083
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 3: the minutes during kind of territorial congressional hearings. I mean,

1084
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 3: he's becoming just another dude with very very little power

1085
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 3: and access to power.

1086
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 1: So he makes this last stand.

1087
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 2: He doesn't he basically loses and realizes not only is

1088
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 2: this not going to be a place for a black state.

1089
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 1: It may not be a place for black people.

1090
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 3: That's definitely what he comes to the conclusion of and says,

1091
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 3: as much, where does he go? So initially he tries

1092
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 3: to go with one of his old buddies to Canada

1093
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 3: for this pollenization scheme of a portion of Canada, which

1094
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 3: is an incredibly short lived endeavor and is a drastic

1095
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 3: failure on his part, And we end up finding McCabe

1096
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 3: much later on in Chicago, back to where he had

1097
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 3: some opportunities, of course, where there's a sizeable black population,

1098
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 3: and also where we see kind of the increase of

1099
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 3: black population in Chicago do to the Great Migration. But

1100
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 3: it's not as if he's high on the horse. He

1101
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 3: is barely holding on.

1102
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 2: What happened to his benefactor. He seemed like he had

1103
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 2: sub benefactors from the north. What happened to them?

1104
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 3: So a lot of them, a good chunk of them,

1105
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 3: as one can imagine, some of them were quite quite

1106
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 3: fictional in terms of their ties to him, right, We

1107
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 3: see that, especially like the Wall dwarfs.

1108
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 2: So you end up finding out some of that, basically

1109
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 2: some of this was just salesmanship.

1110
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:46,960
Speaker 3: Right, exactly a lot of you know, boosterism as one

1111
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 3: would call it, but for him also a lot of

1112
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 3: his benefactors sometimes end up, especially as he has later

1113
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 3: on in life LAMPOONI right, They end up saying, maybe

1114
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:58,880
Speaker 3: he should have got some insurance, maybe he should have

1115
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 3: had a career that would have benefited him beyond this.

1116
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 3: Some of the people who were in Oklahoma, Black people

1117
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:09,120
Speaker 3: in Oklahoma who tided his efforts before kind of engage

1118
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 3: in the game of I told you so, And a

1119
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 3: lot of those US senator relationships and congressional relationships that

1120
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 3: he had had to kind of move on with the

1121
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 3: game of politiking. And McCabe didn't have a constituency that

1122
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 3: represented power. So to your point earlier, if this is

1123
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 3: really a question of power, McCabe had lost a lot

1124
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 3: of his power and asked us she lost a lot

1125
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 3: of his relevance even to some of his benefactors.

1126
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:37,919
Speaker 2: Let's I'm obsessed with alternative histories, meaning you know where

1127
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 2: you you know, if if a fork in the road

1128
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 2: had been taken differently, you know, how would the butterfly

1129
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 2: flapped its wings?

1130
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 3: Have you.

1131
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 2: Given all the research you've done, everything you've learned about

1132
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 2: this about this time period. What you know about American

1133
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,920
Speaker 2: history as it is. What if he had succeeded, if

1134
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:03,080
Speaker 2: Jedgemin Harrison it concluded, you know, it's good politics for

1135
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 2: the Republican Party.

1136
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 1: We we need to do this.

1137
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 2: We're going to Oklahoma's going to be essentially a black state.

1138
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 1: We won't call it a black.

1139
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:15,920
Speaker 2: State, but we're going to make sure it starts with

1140
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 2: black leadership and all of this. And it comes to fruition,

1141
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 2: Where do we go? What does that look like? What

1142
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:24,600
Speaker 2: kind of impact does that have?

1143
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 3: Sure? So I think a few things. One, it would

1144
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:33,640
Speaker 3: have concentrated a certain degree of power in one place. Right,

1145
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 3: Let's just take this.

1146
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 1: Propagraated wealth, wealth, more wealth creation too, for sure.

1147
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 3: Right, especially if you think about the fact that Oklahoma

1148
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:47,920
Speaker 3: was just moments right away from running rich with black goals,

1149
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 3: right right. In fact, if they did.

1150
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:54,200
Speaker 2: The state in the late nineteenth century and then all

1151
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 2: of a sudden, those first like, hey, what is this

1152
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 2: stuff that's making my hands alder?

1153
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 3: Oh exactly yeah, exactly right. But do I do I

1154
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 3: think the United States government would have kept its hands

1155
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 3: off and said, oh, go with God, congratulations. I don't

1156
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 3: think so, And I would imagine. You know, there's always

1157
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 3: I always think about this political scienceist Andrew Gillespie who

1158
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 3: talks about the ways in which black people sometimes if

1159
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 3: they're in congressional districts where it's almost predominantly black, Right,

1160
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 3: what sort of power do they then have at a

1161
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 3: national level versus the diffusion of black the black population

1162
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 3: in variety of areas. Would it force some of these

1163
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 3: other areas to contend with a more and more diverse constitution.

1164
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 2: We're having this debate today with redistricting. I mean, right,

1165
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 2: this goes back and forth all the time. And you know,

1166
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 2: in many ways, black political leaders are put in this

1167
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:56,080
Speaker 2: in this trap, if you will, right, and it is

1168
01:08:56,160 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 2: a trap, and what's good for electing more black representatives

1169
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:07,719
Speaker 2: may not be good overall for black constituents.

1170
01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, And I think that's what we would have

1171
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 3: probably seen in the case of Oklahoma. The only factor

1172
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 3: that we would have the two factors have to consider

1173
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 3: is that again, there were long standing, recently disempowered and

1174
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 3: disenfranchised indigenous nations that had many claims to the land.

1175
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 3: And on top of that, that land would in just

1176
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 3: a short amount of time become the site of making

1177
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 3: some of the richest Americans at that moment in time

1178
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:39,759
Speaker 3: as well. So those two factors are things I always

1179
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 3: think about when I pore over this research.

1180
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 2: How much is this connected with the development of Tulsa

1181
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:46,439
Speaker 2: as Black Wall Street.

1182
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is the question I get pretty frequently

1183
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 3: on tour, and the best way that I can answer

1184
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:56,880
Speaker 3: it is that, you know, the work of McKay was

1185
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 3: primarily to the west of that, right, But part of

1186
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 3: it also is that, in dating back to eighteen ninety

1187
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,680
Speaker 3: by one of the first real censuses that really encompassed

1188
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 3: a lot more black people, right, the conductors of that

1189
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 3: census then kind of look and gaze upon the Eastern

1190
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:18,640
Speaker 3: Parvocalholme and say, this is the best place in the

1191
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 3: world for black people because a lot of these people,

1192
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:25,639
Speaker 3: Creak and Cherokee citizens seminoles, had already created these much

1193
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 3: more unique and inclusive ways of being a citizen and

1194
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 3: participating in their practice, and so as such, that's what

1195
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:37,240
Speaker 3: we see really emerges the igniting fuel for Tulsa's Black

1196
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:38,760
Speaker 3: Wall Street. That's where we kind of see a lot

1197
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:41,080
Speaker 3: of it come together. That's not to say though, that

1198
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 3: the work of McCabe and so many other black people

1199
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:47,360
Speaker 3: who people will meet in this book to really try

1200
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:53,000
Speaker 3: and make this part of the country both territories, Indian Territorial,

1201
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:56,519
Speaker 3: Kloma Territory, a hospitable place for black people. So to

1202
01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 3: some extent, it's part of this larger goal of Creator

1203
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:06,400
Speaker 3: eating a safe haven for black people at that precise

1204
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:08,360
Speaker 3: time when it seemed as if there was nowhere that

1205
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:09,639
Speaker 3: would be safe for black people.

1206
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 2: So the massacre in Tulsa sort of then up ends

1207
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:16,280
Speaker 2: that idea that this is a safe haven.

1208
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 3: That's that's a really nice way of putting it. Yes,

1209
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 3: And on top of that, you know, it's one thing

1210
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:29,600
Speaker 3: for the mastacre to happen, But what happens immediately following

1211
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 3: it is that the mayor of Tulsa, td Evans at

1212
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:35,880
Speaker 3: that time, articulates kind of the real goal here. He says, well,

1213
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:39,040
Speaker 3: just let the negro be placed further north and east, right,

1214
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:40,960
Speaker 3: which it goes back to kind of what we're seeing

1215
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 3: in this book is that let's just find another place

1216
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:46,559
Speaker 3: that they're not our problem any longer.

1217
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:50,799
Speaker 2: This is, well, why did black people go to Oklahoma

1218
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:52,559
Speaker 2: because somebody else was trying to push them away?

1219
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the story of black Americans certainly.

1220
01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:02,000
Speaker 3: Without question, without question, And so that's what drew me

1221
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:05,400
Speaker 3: to this story, is that it was a guy pushing

1222
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 3: against the currents of history right saying that perhaps if

1223
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 3: I can if I can get this just right from

1224
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:18,559
Speaker 3: a political tacticians perspective, maybe I can win against the wave,

1225
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 3: the crushing wave of history.

1226
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 2: The cross pollination, the interaction with the tribes is fascinating

1227
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 2: to me because to this day the Cherokee Nation in

1228
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 2: particular has some political power in Oklahoma, and in some

1229
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:42,480
Speaker 2: ways I've been fascinated by this the structure of political

1230
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:46,000
Speaker 2: fights in Oklahoma now, which is it's no longer R

1231
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:51,440
Speaker 2: versus D. It is Republicans versus the tribes, and sometimes

1232
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:55,400
Speaker 2: the tribal money people are behind a Republican primary opponent.

1233
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 2: Sometimes they decide to fund a Democrat who's a former Republican.

1234
01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 2: But it really feels like it. I always say, you know,

1235
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:05,320
Speaker 2: politics supports a vacuum. It's not always filled by the

1236
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:09,759
Speaker 2: same name of the opposition that we have in other places.

1237
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:12,640
Speaker 2: You know, if it's an R or D, sometimes it's this.

1238
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:15,480
Speaker 2: And in some of these single party states like Oklahoma

1239
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:24,799
Speaker 2: that have a very wealthy tribal uh, I guess tribal

1240
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 2: derivative nations, right, the nations are, they exist, but they

1241
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,720
Speaker 2: don't necessarily have the same power that they once had,

1242
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:34,880
Speaker 2: but they certainly have wealth now, right, and that wealth

1243
01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:38,760
Speaker 2: we all know money, money drives politics more than anything else.

1244
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:44,800
Speaker 2: I'm curious of your observation of that. Am I describing

1245
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:49,519
Speaker 2: that correctly? Am I being a little a little too

1246
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:53,720
Speaker 2: sort of I don't know, looking at it, making it

1247
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:55,679
Speaker 2: too clean of the division?

1248
01:13:56,640 --> 01:14:00,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, I think that what's very clear is

1249
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:03,799
Speaker 3: that they have there is you know, Oklaholma has become

1250
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:09,400
Speaker 3: one of the top gambling states right in the entire country,

1251
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,920
Speaker 3: and a lot of that is very much justin should

1252
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 3: be controlled by those disistations which have been so so

1253
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 3: kind of treated unfairly, as the kindest way that I

1254
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:26,679
Speaker 3: can put it, right, so they've been so horribly treated

1255
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 3: that a lot of times that money when reinvested into.

1256
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:34,360
Speaker 2: The community, which which it is. Look, let's call it

1257
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:37,760
Speaker 2: what it is. It's sort of the only reparation Native Americans.

1258
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 3: Got exactly right, exactly, and so it's it's a veritable

1259
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 3: drop in the bucket. But to your point, uh, the

1260
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:49,680
Speaker 3: the the tensions politically, I think you actually started to

1261
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,840
Speaker 3: really describe it pretty well. Is that, you know, you

1262
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:55,840
Speaker 3: have people like our like Oklahoma's government. I don't live

1263
01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 3: there anymore, but Olahoma's governor, Kevin Stitt, who is you know,

1264
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:03,920
Speaker 3: has found himself crosswise with various nations, in part because

1265
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 3: he wants to increase what's called like the compact speed,

1266
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:09,000
Speaker 3: which is like the tax just a much more money.

1267
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 3: That's right, exactly what.

1268
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 2: By the way, every problem is usually about money, and

1269
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:15,560
Speaker 2: every solution is usually.

1270
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:20,320
Speaker 3: Certainly and even in the most recent Supreme Court case

1271
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:23,639
Speaker 3: where of all people are you know, Supreme Court Justice

1272
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 3: Neil Gorstitch sides with.

1273
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:30,000
Speaker 2: Amazing right, like what in fact, who who does Oklahoma

1274
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:30,559
Speaker 2: belong to?

1275
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 1: Today? Do you know?

1276
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:36,760
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean, in terms of legal and criminal jurisdictional questions,

1277
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:39,919
Speaker 3: a lot of the eastern portion of Oklahoma is still,

1278
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:44,839
Speaker 3: according to our Supreme Court love them or hateum, belongs

1279
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:49,559
Speaker 3: to the Muskoki Creek nation, right, and that that reifying

1280
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:52,719
Speaker 3: that kind of the fact those treaties are still good law.

1281
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:56,599
Speaker 3: It has not been abrogated, you know, really pisses off. Yes,

1282
01:15:56,760 --> 01:16:00,720
Speaker 3: a lot of people like Kevin Stitton others want as

1283
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:03,640
Speaker 3: you mentioned earlier, to have not just more money, but

1284
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:07,360
Speaker 3: money by way of power, right, and so as such,

1285
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:11,240
Speaker 3: it's I mean, the example localahomes I always tell people

1286
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:15,000
Speaker 3: is a way another way of understanding kind of our

1287
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:19,559
Speaker 3: country because Oklahoma has always been this near laboratory for

1288
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 3: many people, for white immigrants, white laborers, indigenous people's, black

1289
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:26,920
Speaker 3: people to try and figure out for themselves, without much

1290
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:31,360
Speaker 3: support and lots of antagonism, a way to exist together

1291
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:33,679
Speaker 3: and belong in this country.

1292
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:34,680
Speaker 1: It is.

1293
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:37,720
Speaker 2: It's so what you just describe their I mean, you're right,

1294
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,000
Speaker 2: like you just invoked grapes of wrath, the dust boll.

1295
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:43,519
Speaker 2: I mean it has been this. It is literally now

1296
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:45,479
Speaker 2: as you say, as we now see the map of

1297
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:49,760
Speaker 2: the United States, it turned into a crossroads state, didn't it.

1298
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:53,599
Speaker 3: Certainly? I mean not just not just figuratively, but literally

1299
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:55,360
Speaker 3: with root sixty sites, which is kind of one of

1300
01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 3: our pride and glory it is. But at the same time,

1301
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 3: I think we we still try and kind of consolidated

1302
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:04,639
Speaker 3: along a lot of other places that have a lot

1303
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:07,880
Speaker 3: of deep meaning as just part of flyover compry, right,

1304
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:08,759
Speaker 3: not meant.

1305
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:21,000
Speaker 4: To be considered or studied. I'd love to dig in more.

1306
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 2: What is your there's a lot of what I what

1307
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:29,200
Speaker 2: i'd call sort of you know, history that wasn't written about.

1308
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:33,719
Speaker 2: You know, I just in my own, in my own travels,

1309
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:37,559
Speaker 2: discovered the story of Blanche Bruce as I was digging

1310
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 2: into more about Garfield. I'm obsessed with Garfield in a

1311
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 2: whole number of ways. I've got this Pollyannish view that

1312
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:47,519
Speaker 2: if Garfield lives, reconstruction might have come back. Maybe that

1313
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:51,200
Speaker 2: we might have, you know, imagined, if the essentially the

1314
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:54,000
Speaker 2: Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty five is actually passed

1315
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:57,920
Speaker 2: in eighteen eighty three, right and signed into law by

1316
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 2: President Garfield, where are we, you know, as a country

1317
01:18:01,520 --> 01:18:07,040
Speaker 2: today if essentially everything happens eighty years sooner when it

1318
01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 2: comes to civil rights and so and this whole period

1319
01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:13,000
Speaker 2: in the story of Blanche Bruce is fascinating. I discovered this,

1320
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:14,960
Speaker 2: you know, found this book that somebody wrote about the

1321
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 2: first black political dynasty. Yes, so I throw that out

1322
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:21,560
Speaker 2: there in that you know, I'm I'm a I'm a

1323
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:24,600
Speaker 2: hungry history junkie. I think the people that choose to

1324
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:26,920
Speaker 2: listen to my podcast sort of share a little bit

1325
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:29,719
Speaker 2: of that. What are some stories do you think more?

1326
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:32,200
Speaker 2: You know, what are you diving into what's what's a

1327
01:18:32,200 --> 01:18:34,760
Speaker 2: couple of stories you're you want to you're writing about now.

1328
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 2: I guess it's my elaborate way of asking what's next,

1329
01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:41,559
Speaker 2: or what are some other underwritten histories that you think

1330
01:18:41,720 --> 01:18:45,280
Speaker 2: needs some historical work? And you know you're busy doing

1331
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:47,519
Speaker 2: one thing, and if you know you can't clone yourself,

1332
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 2: and you wish.

1333
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:51,080
Speaker 1: You could die in there, Yeah.

1334
01:18:50,200 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 3: For sure, Yes, I mean I think that the book

1335
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 3: you were referencing is written by Lawrence Otis Graham about

1336
01:18:57,040 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 3: both Blanche Bruce and his wife. But the sort of

1337
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:05,200
Speaker 3: work that I'm really quite captivated by always. I mean,

1338
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:07,840
Speaker 3: there's there's so much work to do, even just within

1339
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:11,800
Speaker 3: that kind of corridor the Midwest Southwest, that it is

1340
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:14,120
Speaker 3: too long to list. But what I'm working on a

1341
01:19:14,120 --> 01:19:16,599
Speaker 3: lot right now. I'm meeting with my agent in about

1342
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:19,320
Speaker 3: forty five minutes, so let's see if he agrees. But

1343
01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:23,040
Speaker 3: you know, I'm spending a lot of my time thinking

1344
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:25,679
Speaker 3: more about the question of power and belonging in wealth.

1345
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:30,880
Speaker 3: And so there's never really been a kind of canonical

1346
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:35,800
Speaker 3: book that tells in a narrative form the story of

1347
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 3: the racial wealth gap. We oftentimes see snapshots in the

1348
01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:44,200
Speaker 3: case of Stay the Warmth of other Sons by Isabel

1349
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:49,960
Speaker 3: Wilkerston beautiful, gracious, I mean, just wonderful book covers roughly about,

1350
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 3: you know, fifty to sixty years of time. Whereas for me,

1351
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:57,040
Speaker 3: I think that the story is a lot more complicated

1352
01:19:57,040 --> 01:19:59,479
Speaker 3: than that, much more interesting than that. And I think

1353
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:04,679
Speaker 3: I've found into family that black and white, dating back

1354
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:08,640
Speaker 3: to about the sixteen hundreds, who actually can both illustrate

1355
01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:12,760
Speaker 3: but then also show their own influence on the construction

1356
01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 3: of the racial wealth gap dating back to the sixteen hundreds.

1357
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 3: So that to me is where I've spending a lot

1358
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:23,920
Speaker 3: of my time in their stories, in their archives, seeing

1359
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:28,880
Speaker 3: them bite back and have family dramas and whatnot, politicking

1360
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:32,679
Speaker 3: almost within their own families. And then I'm also kind

1361
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:36,719
Speaker 3: of examining what does black ambition look like for someone

1362
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,639
Speaker 3: who was also known as Black Moses, that's Marcus Garvey,

1363
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:44,800
Speaker 3: and in part because the efforts to thwart him were

1364
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 3: led by a black man in partnership with Ja Goo Hoover,

1365
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:53,479
Speaker 3: and how that might have been the setup for co

1366
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:57,400
Speaker 3: intel Pro decades before co intel Pro went into practice.

1367
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 3: So I'm spending my time on both of those right now,

1368
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:02,920
Speaker 3: because I think they'd give you us a key hole

1369
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:06,719
Speaker 3: into the America that we have right now dating back

1370
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:10,240
Speaker 3: to actions and decisions made in the case of the

1371
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:13,040
Speaker 3: Earth Book hundreds of years ago and the other one

1372
01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:14,200
Speaker 3: about one hundred years ago.

1373
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:18,160
Speaker 2: You know, the issue of the black wealth gap and

1374
01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:23,240
Speaker 2: sort of you know, there was the show Gilded Age

1375
01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:26,640
Speaker 2: was popular in my household, and we've you know this

1376
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:31,160
Speaker 2: thing I find I find the show where it actually

1377
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:34,240
Speaker 2: there's a lot of ways as I said, there's a

1378
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:38,200
Speaker 2: lot of ways in culturally into this story, no matter

1379
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:40,920
Speaker 2: you know of your own, no matter your ethnicity, your religion.

1380
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 2: All this stuff is fascinating, and they do. I really

1381
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:45,720
Speaker 2: think this last season they've done a really good job

1382
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:50,800
Speaker 2: of sort of painting the complicated history of America. Where

1383
01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:53,880
Speaker 2: would you identify that crossroads? Because what you know, they

1384
01:21:54,200 --> 01:21:56,599
Speaker 2: got at and the Blanche Bruce book gets at this too,

1385
01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:00,160
Speaker 2: that there was this divide between sort of the free

1386
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:05,160
Speaker 2: black elites of the North and the so called you know,

1387
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:09,599
Speaker 2: newly free black Americans of the South wanting to pursue

1388
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:10,680
Speaker 2: their own American.

1389
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:14,600
Speaker 3: Dream without question. And I think you see some of

1390
01:22:14,640 --> 01:22:18,400
Speaker 3: that even in Black Moses, because McCabe was. Effectively he

1391
01:22:18,439 --> 01:22:19,920
Speaker 3: went to boarding school in Newport.

1392
01:22:19,960 --> 01:22:22,599
Speaker 2: Where did that give him more credibility or did that

1393
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 2: actually turn off some blacks in Oklahoma?

1394
01:22:26,120 --> 01:22:27,880
Speaker 3: It's a good question credibility with whom?

1395
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:28,240
Speaker 2: Right?

1396
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:30,120
Speaker 3: Did they give him a lot of credibility with his

1397
01:22:30,120 --> 01:22:33,799
Speaker 3: white peers? Sure? Right, of course did it give him?

1398
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:38,680
Speaker 3: Did it kind of give rise to people like this

1399
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:41,559
Speaker 3: black man named John Paul Jones and Norman Oklahoma who

1400
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:46,240
Speaker 3: thought he was a sadity his words, carpetbagger his words. Yes,

1401
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:48,880
Speaker 3: I'm sure it did. But I think that what we

1402
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:53,080
Speaker 3: see is that that division is I mean, first of all,

1403
01:22:53,080 --> 01:22:57,760
Speaker 3: it's most fascinating kind of under discussed, under reported, underwritten

1404
01:22:57,800 --> 01:23:01,439
Speaker 3: thing that I think exists. But that vision that Larry

1405
01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:03,280
Speaker 3: Graham and his book Trust to dive into and the

1406
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:09,200
Speaker 3: Gilsdage really kind of exploits is is manifest all over

1407
01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:14,240
Speaker 3: kind of especially the late nineteenth century all the way

1408
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:18,160
Speaker 3: through till now right in terms of whose people are you?

1409
01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:21,640
Speaker 3: Where did you come from? What was your origin? What

1410
01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:25,320
Speaker 3: was your who were your people? Effectively is a really

1411
01:23:25,479 --> 01:23:28,680
Speaker 3: potent question that we see asked and answer even in

1412
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:29,200
Speaker 3: the gilds of it.

1413
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 2: Well, this gets at the core of what is America, right,

1414
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:36,240
Speaker 2: the whole point, you know, we like to believe that

1415
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:40,719
Speaker 2: we broke away so that that wasn't a determinative factor

1416
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:44,280
Speaker 2: for your future, that it didn't depend on your bloodlines.

1417
01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:46,559
Speaker 2: Were you from the feudal side of the world in Europe,

1418
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:50,360
Speaker 2: or were you from a monarch or whatever some frankly,

1419
01:23:50,439 --> 01:23:53,799
Speaker 2: probably derivative of a of a of a Roman empire

1420
01:23:53,880 --> 01:23:57,120
Speaker 2: general who you know, uh just had to you know,

1421
01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:00,800
Speaker 2: controlled turf and then call themselves king, right course, but

1422
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:03,960
Speaker 2: you know, so the whole point of America was to

1423
01:24:04,080 --> 01:24:07,479
Speaker 2: like break this idea of an aristocracy of an elite.

1424
01:24:07,520 --> 01:24:11,799
Speaker 2: And yet what has been the constant theme of frankly,

1425
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:15,320
Speaker 2: the development of America has been these fights between those

1426
01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:18,000
Speaker 2: who say, hey, your lineage matters, and those that say, no,

1427
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:20,599
Speaker 2: it's your freedom matters.

1428
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:23,840
Speaker 3: Certainly, right, And it's sad that those two things almost

1429
01:24:23,840 --> 01:24:27,720
Speaker 3: stay in opposition to another, your freedom and your kind

1430
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 3: of lineage, when actuality it should be that both can

1431
01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:34,760
Speaker 3: exist on the same plane, that in fact, this is

1432
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:37,320
Speaker 3: my lineage. And yet I am free or and I

1433
01:24:37,360 --> 01:24:41,519
Speaker 3: am part of this American experience. And sadly, again, I

1434
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:44,360
Speaker 3: think because we've made as at the point I made

1435
01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 3: my first book is that identity has become so rigid

1436
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:51,599
Speaker 3: and oftentimes is much more of an emptying out factor

1437
01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:54,080
Speaker 3: as opposed to kind of a rich tapestry that we're

1438
01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:57,200
Speaker 3: constantly adding to. And I think as I'm making my

1439
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 3: second book, we place a cat on what people ought

1440
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:04,600
Speaker 3: to be able to achieve that in many cases, we

1441
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:09,160
Speaker 3: place kind of lineage and background and history and the

1442
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:12,640
Speaker 3: diversity of rich, beautiful complexity that's associated with it with

1443
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:16,320
Speaker 3: the complexities and hard won freedoms that we should be

1444
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:19,080
Speaker 3: all enjoying at the same time, in all of the

1445
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:19,799
Speaker 3: different ways.

1446
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:26,320
Speaker 2: Every historian when they write their history is usually influenced

1447
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:29,360
Speaker 2: by the current political climate.

1448
01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:30,639
Speaker 1: You can't help it.

1449
01:25:30,920 --> 01:25:33,679
Speaker 2: You know, and I and it's you know, just because

1450
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 2: you know interpretation is always done through your own experiences.

1451
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:42,880
Speaker 2: How do you check yourself on that when you're writing,

1452
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:45,519
Speaker 2: and how much do you want it included in your

1453
01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:48,840
Speaker 2: analysis and interpretation? And because you know the reader is

1454
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:51,439
Speaker 2: reading it through the lens of their own experiences and

1455
01:25:51,479 --> 01:25:54,400
Speaker 2: then trying to fit it in to what they think

1456
01:25:54,439 --> 01:25:56,599
Speaker 2: they already knew, which I think, you know, it makes

1457
01:25:56,880 --> 01:26:00,840
Speaker 2: it's to me what makes reading history. I've in many ways,

1458
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:02,599
Speaker 2: I want to know a lot more about the author,

1459
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:06,720
Speaker 2: because that will tell me just you know what, what

1460
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 2: the intellectual bias is going to be going into the

1461
01:26:10,040 --> 01:26:10,960
Speaker 2: into the pro course.

1462
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:13,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there are many ways that I fight

1463
01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:16,760
Speaker 3: it in tactile terms. I have a community of people

1464
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:19,080
Speaker 3: who read my stuff before it ever gets anywhere near

1465
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:23,360
Speaker 3: someone sister yourself. But I think in in in a

1466
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:26,040
Speaker 3: way that's maybe a little less tax file. Yeah, I

1467
01:26:26,040 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 3: really spend a lot of my time reading what those

1468
01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:34,439
Speaker 3: folks perhaps at that time, were reading right there.

1469
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:38,040
Speaker 1: That's an interesting thing will tell me. You know, I'm

1470
01:26:38,080 --> 01:26:39,160
Speaker 1: going to know you got me off.

1471
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:40,880
Speaker 2: We're going to and I want to keep you under

1472
01:26:40,920 --> 01:26:43,280
Speaker 2: an hour here, and we've been going about forty five minutes.

1473
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:45,720
Speaker 2: But I find that to be the most one of

1474
01:26:46,040 --> 01:26:48,880
Speaker 2: the When I talk about today's media climate, I say,

1475
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:51,160
Speaker 2: you know, it's very partisan. It's actually a very familiar

1476
01:26:51,439 --> 01:26:55,200
Speaker 2: media climate to historians, because in the nineteenth century, whenever

1477
01:26:55,200 --> 01:26:57,160
Speaker 2: I've dug in I told you about Garfield, I went

1478
01:26:57,240 --> 01:27:01,439
Speaker 2: deep and learning more about Garfield and you every news

1479
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:03,519
Speaker 2: story had four points of view.

1480
01:27:04,320 --> 01:27:06,400
Speaker 1: And I'd say that because there, especially if it was

1481
01:27:06,439 --> 01:27:09,879
Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. Because you had black newspaper archives,

1482
01:27:09,920 --> 01:27:10,760
Speaker 1: and that was from the.

1483
01:27:10,960 --> 01:27:14,639
Speaker 2: From the Black press, you'd have the Republican Party press,

1484
01:27:14,680 --> 01:27:17,439
Speaker 2: you had Democratic Party press, and you had even at

1485
01:27:17,479 --> 01:27:20,599
Speaker 2: times Wig Press or some other. So there was always

1486
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:24,920
Speaker 2: and other than the event itself being familiar, there would

1487
01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:28,160
Speaker 2: be different interpretations. How did you you know when your

1488
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:33,479
Speaker 2: source material? How did you handle that knowing that that

1489
01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:38,679
Speaker 2: there there was probably bias written into that source material?

1490
01:27:39,160 --> 01:27:42,080
Speaker 3: Certainly, I mean, I the best way to answer it

1491
01:27:42,120 --> 01:27:44,160
Speaker 3: is that if his folks will see in the very

1492
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:48,000
Speaker 3: end of the book, uh, we took font size to uh,

1493
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:52,519
Speaker 3: probably beyond its limit. Otherwise the sources pages would have

1494
01:27:52,560 --> 01:27:54,120
Speaker 3: been larger than the book itself.

1495
01:27:54,439 --> 01:27:57,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, which you do see in some history books. You're like, oh,

1496
01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 2: it's overwhelming, don't worry. Literally half of it's is the bibliography.

1497
01:28:01,439 --> 01:28:05,120
Speaker 3: Right exactly. I mean, I think my answer is to

1498
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:08,760
Speaker 3: go even further. Right, So, if we're looking at a

1499
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:12,599
Speaker 3: senator at that time, Senator Preston Plumb from Kansas, right,

1500
01:28:12,800 --> 01:28:15,280
Speaker 3: or or someone of that nature, I'm not just gonna

1501
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 3: look at you have the Washington b and perhaps what

1502
01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:22,120
Speaker 3: the other kind of Republican democrat, et cetera, et cetera, pages.

1503
01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:24,080
Speaker 3: I'm also gonna go there're local pages. I'm gonna go

1504
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:27,120
Speaker 3: to the neighboring towns that Senator Pluston Plumb is from.

1505
01:28:27,280 --> 01:28:30,559
Speaker 3: I'm going to kind of look at this massive kind

1506
01:28:30,600 --> 01:28:33,680
Speaker 3: of collection. So for each character in the cast of

1507
01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:37,080
Speaker 3: characters in my book, there's this there's almost this orbit

1508
01:28:37,439 --> 01:28:42,080
Speaker 3: of satellites, and those satellites contain just shows of information

1509
01:28:42,160 --> 01:28:46,000
Speaker 3: about how did so many different people see this person right?

1510
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:49,759
Speaker 3: And there's a person who is my he's my favorite

1511
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:53,200
Speaker 3: person to dislike in all of American history, which is

1512
01:28:53,240 --> 01:28:58,599
Speaker 3: Senator Daniel Hooy's who features prominently in this book where

1513
01:28:58,760 --> 01:29:01,800
Speaker 3: he decides to have his massive Senate hearing, which is

1514
01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:05,479
Speaker 3: all Kaka Maimie and what most people will call BS

1515
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:07,439
Speaker 3: and what the New York Times called BS, and his

1516
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:09,680
Speaker 3: local cap were called BS and everyone else. So that

1517
01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:11,479
Speaker 3: part of the said so I really love to dislike

1518
01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:14,080
Speaker 3: him is because no one had anything good to say

1519
01:29:14,080 --> 01:29:14,360
Speaker 3: about it.

1520
01:29:14,400 --> 01:29:17,599
Speaker 1: Everybody here, everyone Yeah.

1521
01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:20,080
Speaker 3: And so to some extent, I think, you know, nerds

1522
01:29:20,080 --> 01:29:23,920
Speaker 3: to nerd, you know, we I really enjoyed kind of

1523
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:28,960
Speaker 3: developing as wide and as fast and as deep of

1524
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 3: an understanding of each person who I spent any time

1525
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:32,560
Speaker 3: writing about.

1526
01:29:32,560 --> 01:29:34,679
Speaker 2: Well, I think the hardest part of doing this work

1527
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:37,280
Speaker 2: is not to get caught in rabbit holes. You must

1528
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:39,760
Speaker 2: find stuff that are like, what a great story? Has

1529
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:42,479
Speaker 2: nothing to do with on researching, but wow, what a

1530
01:29:42,479 --> 01:29:43,200
Speaker 2: great story?

1531
01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:43,479
Speaker 1: Right?

1532
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:47,479
Speaker 3: Like certainly, certainly, and and my my office is full

1533
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:50,679
Speaker 3: of the pages that my editors said, these are really

1534
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:53,160
Speaker 3: interesting stories, but they'll never see the light of day.

1535
01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:56,880
Speaker 2: So, uh, are you comfortable being in a story and

1536
01:29:56,920 --> 01:29:58,639
Speaker 2: the rest of your life or do you miss day

1537
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:00,840
Speaker 2: to day news day to da you know, would you

1538
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:04,439
Speaker 2: like to be covering uh, the present day more? Or

1539
01:30:04,479 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 2: what's where? What's your ambition going forward? You know, what

1540
01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:08,200
Speaker 2: do you want to What do you want to be

1541
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:09,320
Speaker 2: doing in the next ten years?

1542
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:11,880
Speaker 3: What do I want to be doing the next ten years? Yeah,

1543
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:14,439
Speaker 3: so I think that my my my answer to that is,

1544
01:30:14,560 --> 01:30:19,640
Speaker 3: you know, I I find that without engaging in presentism,

1545
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:23,080
Speaker 3: which is like every historian's nightmare of a debate, I

1546
01:30:23,080 --> 01:30:27,320
Speaker 3: think it's I think there's something useful about adding context

1547
01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:30,439
Speaker 3: to the current moment, right And I think that's why

1548
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:32,479
Speaker 3: you can say, as you said earlier that oh you

1549
01:30:32,560 --> 01:30:36,519
Speaker 3: think newspaper media is partisan, now you know it take

1550
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:38,280
Speaker 3: a look at how it used to be, and what

1551
01:30:38,320 --> 01:30:42,000
Speaker 3: the implications were, and what the sacrifices were, what were

1552
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:45,200
Speaker 3: the costs of doing so. So to me, I see

1553
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,920
Speaker 3: myself as wanting to write these iconic American stories, and

1554
01:30:48,920 --> 01:30:52,080
Speaker 3: I feel as if McCabe is is such a I mean,

1555
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 3: his story is so quintessentially American, right, And so I

1556
01:30:56,040 --> 01:31:00,240
Speaker 3: think over the coming decade, I'll be doing even more

1557
01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:04,479
Speaker 3: of that. But it addedn't even larger scale biting trying

1558
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:07,679
Speaker 3: to bike, and its not swallow larger and larger bites

1559
01:31:07,720 --> 01:31:09,000
Speaker 3: of the apple, if you will.

1560
01:31:09,080 --> 01:31:10,719
Speaker 1: Well, I look forward to it, Caleb.

1561
01:31:10,840 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I just you know, I'm reminded all the

1562
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:16,240
Speaker 2: time that we you know, we talk about you know,

1563
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:20,160
Speaker 2: my daughter's marine is studying marine biology, and you know

1564
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:23,000
Speaker 2: the ocean is you know, we've only discovered you know,

1565
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:26,160
Speaker 2: we've probably explored space more than we've explored the oceans,

1566
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:28,680
Speaker 2: and we've only discovered so little about our system. And

1567
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:30,679
Speaker 2: I think about that in American history. I think we've

1568
01:31:30,720 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 2: only we only know about ten percent of the story

1569
01:31:33,479 --> 01:31:34,280
Speaker 2: of American history.

1570
01:31:34,320 --> 01:31:36,760
Speaker 3: I think, I agree, I agree, I think that the

1571
01:31:36,800 --> 01:31:39,000
Speaker 3: phrase is what is it dale stemens prayer, which is

1572
01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:41,000
Speaker 3: God your ocean is so have asked, but my boat

1573
01:31:41,040 --> 01:31:44,639
Speaker 3: is so small, and so to some extent to extend your, your,

1574
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:47,559
Speaker 3: your daughter's metaphor that much more, I just feel as

1575
01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:50,959
Speaker 3: if I'm just getting started now, and I feel.

1576
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:51,439
Speaker 1: This way all the time.

1577
01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:53,800
Speaker 2: This is so thanks to your book, I now feel

1578
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:55,439
Speaker 2: like I know eleven percent of American his.

1579
01:31:57,000 --> 01:31:57,559
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1580
01:31:58,040 --> 01:32:00,160
Speaker 1: It's really good to meet you. Appreciate your spending time

1581
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:02,000
Speaker 1: with shocking me so much.

1582
01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:16,040
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to stick to the history theme. By

1583
01:32:16,040 --> 01:32:19,360
Speaker 2: the way, as you could say, Caleb Gail is a

1584
01:32:19,439 --> 01:32:22,719
Speaker 2: terrific storyteller orally, so imagine the book itself.

1585
01:32:22,760 --> 01:32:24,840
Speaker 1: Go out there and go get that book. You will

1586
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:25,439
Speaker 1: enjoy it.

1587
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:30,000
Speaker 2: So my history lesson for this week, and as you know,

1588
01:32:30,880 --> 01:32:33,799
Speaker 2: for those that haven't been following every week every Monday,

1589
01:32:33,880 --> 01:32:36,800
Speaker 2: I will basically do it this week in history, right,

1590
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:42,679
Speaker 2: something of importance that maybe has been forgotten, that has

1591
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:48,000
Speaker 2: had huge impacts on sort of how we understand politics

1592
01:32:48,040 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 2: or how we understand the country.

1593
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:50,360
Speaker 1: Right. You know.

1594
01:32:50,439 --> 01:32:54,960
Speaker 2: So last week happened to be the anniversary of Washington's

1595
01:32:55,000 --> 01:32:55,719
Speaker 2: farewell address.

1596
01:32:55,800 --> 01:32:56,959
Speaker 1: It was a perfect time.

1597
01:32:57,240 --> 01:32:58,840
Speaker 2: To get at some of the warnings and some of

1598
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:02,440
Speaker 2: the concerns that Washington had about political parties and polarization.

1599
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:06,800
Speaker 2: As you know, the first iteration of this it was

1600
01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:12,360
Speaker 2: the week of the fifty first anniversary of the Afford's

1601
01:33:12,400 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 2: pardoning of Nixon, and my contention that that actually that

1602
01:33:17,120 --> 01:33:19,640
Speaker 2: here was something in history that has been considered that

1603
01:33:19,720 --> 01:33:23,040
Speaker 2: he did. He put country over politics, and it was

1604
01:33:23,080 --> 01:33:26,960
Speaker 2: probably I don't think it's a decision that has aged well,

1605
01:33:27,080 --> 01:33:29,680
Speaker 2: and it was probably I think, in hindsight, considering what

1606
01:33:29,680 --> 01:33:33,439
Speaker 2: we're dealing with today, a mistake. Well, this coming week

1607
01:33:34,400 --> 01:33:37,200
Speaker 2: we are going to have, let me see here the

1608
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:48,479
Speaker 2: seventy third anniversary of the first ever example of a

1609
01:33:48,600 --> 01:33:53,360
Speaker 2: savior political skin speech that would end up being the

1610
01:33:53,479 --> 01:33:57,720
Speaker 2: model of how to get out of controversial political problems

1611
01:33:58,320 --> 01:34:04,640
Speaker 2: really to this day. On September twenty third, nineteen fifty two,

1612
01:34:05,240 --> 01:34:10,760
Speaker 2: and well, at nine thirty Eastern time, the nominee for

1613
01:34:11,200 --> 01:34:15,919
Speaker 2: the Republicans for Vice President, Richard Nixon, took to the airwaves.

1614
01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:21,280
Speaker 2: He bought time on CBS, NBC, ABC and Mutual Radio simultaneously.

1615
01:34:22,080 --> 01:34:23,960
Speaker 2: At the time, it was a cost of seventy five

1616
01:34:24,040 --> 01:34:30,200
Speaker 2: thousand dollars for thirty minutes of airtime to essentially explain

1617
01:34:30,360 --> 01:34:37,400
Speaker 2: himself and save his vice presidential candidacy. Let me take

1618
01:34:37,439 --> 01:34:41,560
Speaker 2: you through the timeline. So the crisis began on September

1619
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:44,920
Speaker 2: eighteenth of nineteen fifty two. The New York Post, Yes,

1620
01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:48,320
Speaker 2: that New York Post, they ran the first big expos

1621
01:34:48,560 --> 01:34:52,320
Speaker 2: on Richard Nixon's expense fund. What it was is he

1622
01:34:52,439 --> 01:34:57,280
Speaker 2: basically had. Today we would call it a campaign you know,

1623
01:34:57,320 --> 01:34:59,680
Speaker 2: some sort of super pac fund, but back then it did.

1624
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:01,360
Speaker 1: One of these ever existed. So we had this.

1625
01:35:02,479 --> 01:35:04,400
Speaker 2: Some people referred to it as a slush fund, but

1626
01:35:04,439 --> 01:35:08,240
Speaker 2: it was essentially a fund where political supporters had money

1627
01:35:08,240 --> 01:35:14,400
Speaker 2: to help Nixon with expenses. Maybe it's expenses with politics

1628
01:35:14,520 --> 01:35:19,559
Speaker 2: or expenses for himself. But the way it was, this

1629
01:35:19,640 --> 01:35:22,559
Speaker 2: had never been seen before. The public had never heard

1630
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:25,280
Speaker 2: of anybody doing this what I'm describing. Today, you'd be like, oh,

1631
01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:28,519
Speaker 2: every politicians does this. But at the time, nobody believed

1632
01:35:28,520 --> 01:35:32,240
Speaker 2: politicians did do this, nor did they believe they should

1633
01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:34,320
Speaker 2: do this. So the New York Post runs a story

1634
01:35:34,840 --> 01:35:38,960
Speaker 2: on Nixon's personal expense fund. A whole bunch of papers

1635
01:35:38,960 --> 01:35:42,719
Speaker 2: pile on right. Dwight Eisenhower's the newly minted Republican nominee

1636
01:35:42,720 --> 01:35:46,600
Speaker 2: for president, in his inner circle they weren't big Nixon fans.

1637
01:35:46,640 --> 01:35:49,160
Speaker 2: To begin with Eisenhower. I'm gonna give you a little

1638
01:35:49,160 --> 01:35:52,760
Speaker 2: backstory here. Eisenhower was very obviously was being recruited by

1639
01:35:52,760 --> 01:35:54,720
Speaker 2: both parties. Right Truman tried to get him to run

1640
01:35:54,720 --> 01:35:57,400
Speaker 2: as a Democrat. He decided to run as a Republican.

1641
01:35:58,800 --> 01:36:00,559
Speaker 2: But what that really meant was it was a pretty

1642
01:36:01,960 --> 01:36:05,840
Speaker 2: pretty moderate Republican. He did not necessarily and he was

1643
01:36:05,880 --> 01:36:07,559
Speaker 2: not necessarily trusted by some of the.

1644
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:09,160
Speaker 1: Conservatives in the party.

1645
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:13,000
Speaker 2: Back then, the conservative wing was essentially referred to as

1646
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:16,080
Speaker 2: the Taft wing of the Republican Party. Back then, Taft

1647
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:19,400
Speaker 2: was sort of a keeper of the conservative flame of

1648
01:36:19,439 --> 01:36:22,880
Speaker 2: the Ohio Tafts if you're keeping track at home. So

1649
01:36:23,040 --> 01:36:27,479
Speaker 2: Nixon was seen as a necessity, meaning Eisenhower had to

1650
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:31,440
Speaker 2: find a conservative running mate in order to essentially appease

1651
01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:36,280
Speaker 2: the right flank of the Republican Party. So Nixon wasn't

1652
01:36:36,320 --> 01:36:39,639
Speaker 2: popular with Eisenhower in the first place, so the second

1653
01:36:39,760 --> 01:36:45,240
Speaker 2: there's a problem with his nomination, they were ready to

1654
01:36:45,280 --> 01:36:45,800
Speaker 2: turn tail.

1655
01:36:46,439 --> 01:36:48,639
Speaker 1: And Nixon knew this because.

1656
01:36:48,439 --> 01:36:51,599
Speaker 2: Eisenhower's inner circle was furious about the story, and some

1657
01:36:51,640 --> 01:36:56,160
Speaker 2: of them immediately wanted him dropped from the ticket, and

1658
01:36:56,160 --> 01:36:58,639
Speaker 2: in fact, Nixon himself thought it was over.

1659
01:37:00,120 --> 01:37:00,439
Speaker 4: Happened.

1660
01:37:01,120 --> 01:37:04,400
Speaker 2: So Nixon and his friends of buyers. The person who

1661
01:37:04,439 --> 01:37:06,000
Speaker 2: gets the most credit for this is a guy named

1662
01:37:06,120 --> 01:37:10,559
Speaker 2: Murray Schattener, who was his campaign manager for his Senate

1663
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:14,280
Speaker 2: races back in nineteen fifty. Roger Kent, another political ally.

1664
01:37:14,560 --> 01:37:17,680
Speaker 2: They thought Nixon should bypass the press, don't do a

1665
01:37:17,720 --> 01:37:25,000
Speaker 2: press conference, go to this use this new medium, television.

1666
01:37:25,479 --> 01:37:28,679
Speaker 2: Nixon made wide use of television and his successful nineteen

1667
01:37:28,760 --> 01:37:31,240
Speaker 2: fifty Senate race. By the way, that's been one of

1668
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:34,439
Speaker 2: my book recommendations. Nixon and the Pink Lady, go read

1669
01:37:34,439 --> 01:37:37,240
Speaker 2: that book. It's a terrific book, and it will also

1670
01:37:37,400 --> 01:37:41,200
Speaker 2: serve as a good primer for the red scare stuff

1671
01:37:41,240 --> 01:37:43,679
Speaker 2: because it was a lot of Senate races in nineteen

1672
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:46,600
Speaker 2: fifty was essentially the year of the red Scare in

1673
01:37:46,720 --> 01:37:47,479
Speaker 2: Senate races.

1674
01:37:49,240 --> 01:37:51,840
Speaker 1: But he used some television and he was one.

1675
01:37:51,720 --> 01:37:56,040
Speaker 2: Of the first non presidential candidates to use television back

1676
01:37:56,040 --> 01:38:00,160
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty, so and it was thought of that

1677
01:38:00,240 --> 01:38:04,560
Speaker 2: if he could go on TV, he could bypass the press.

1678
01:38:05,120 --> 01:38:08,000
Speaker 2: Right Nixon was looking to sort of talk around the press.

1679
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:11,559
Speaker 2: So they decide to buy thirty minutes of national TV time,

1680
01:38:12,479 --> 01:38:15,120
Speaker 2: and he goes into the l Capitan Theater in Los Angeles.

1681
01:38:15,160 --> 01:38:18,280
Speaker 2: At the time, it was a TV studio, and he

1682
01:38:18,360 --> 01:38:26,840
Speaker 2: prepared a thirty minute speech details essentially in essence defending

1683
01:38:26,920 --> 01:38:30,200
Speaker 2: himself from this story about what was this slush fund

1684
01:38:30,240 --> 01:38:34,360
Speaker 2: all about. So he decided he would detail his finances

1685
01:38:34,439 --> 01:38:40,439
Speaker 2: down to what his family owned to show transparency. So

1686
01:38:41,760 --> 01:38:44,240
Speaker 2: it ended up working right. Some of the more famous

1687
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:47,920
Speaker 2: lines that come of it, you know, it's known as

1688
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:51,160
Speaker 2: the Checkers Speech for this reason because the Checker's moment

1689
01:38:51,280 --> 01:38:53,920
Speaker 2: is Nixon admitted that one of the gifts that he

1690
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:58,439
Speaker 2: got was a dog named Checkers for his daughters. And they, yes,

1691
01:38:58,520 --> 01:39:00,960
Speaker 2: they did keep the dog, and he wasn't going to

1692
01:39:01,040 --> 01:39:04,680
Speaker 2: give back the dog. And it became this because the

1693
01:39:04,720 --> 01:39:13,599
Speaker 2: girls really loved the dog. And so he has he

1694
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:16,240
Speaker 2: does that. He talks about, you know, the amount of

1695
01:39:16,280 --> 01:39:19,519
Speaker 2: money they spend. You know that Pat his wife doesn't

1696
01:39:19,560 --> 01:39:23,479
Speaker 2: have a fur coat or a mink coat, but she

1697
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:27,679
Speaker 2: does have a respectable Republican cloth coat. And I always

1698
01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:30,920
Speaker 2: tell her she'd look good in anything. Then he went

1699
01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:34,040
Speaker 2: on and just do mundane things. We owned a nineteen

1700
01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:37,120
Speaker 2: fifty Oldsmobile. We have our furniture, and we have a

1701
01:39:37,160 --> 01:39:40,160
Speaker 2: mortgage of twenty thousand dollars on a house in Washington,

1702
01:39:40,240 --> 01:39:43,160
Speaker 2: d C. And then he goes into the whole thing

1703
01:39:43,240 --> 01:39:45,320
Speaker 2: of Checkers. Let me repeat the line here because it's

1704
01:39:45,360 --> 01:39:47,800
Speaker 2: really good. One other thing I should probably tell you,

1705
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:50,559
Speaker 2: because if I don't, they will probably be saying this

1706
01:39:50,600 --> 01:39:53,040
Speaker 2: is about me too. We did get something of a

1707
01:39:53,080 --> 01:39:56,679
Speaker 2: gift after the election. A man the nineteen fifty Senate election.

1708
01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:59,120
Speaker 2: He's referring to a man down in Texas heard Pat

1709
01:39:59,120 --> 01:40:01,040
Speaker 2: and the girls on the race mentioned that they'd like

1710
01:40:01,120 --> 01:40:03,240
Speaker 2: to have a dog. And you know what it was.

1711
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:06,000
Speaker 2: It was a little Cocker Spaniel dog and a crate

1712
01:40:06,160 --> 01:40:08,960
Speaker 2: that he sent all the way from Texas, and our

1713
01:40:09,000 --> 01:40:11,559
Speaker 2: little girl, Trisha, the sex year old, named it Checkers.

1714
01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:14,080
Speaker 2: And you know, the kids, like all kids, love the dog.

1715
01:40:14,320 --> 01:40:15,960
Speaker 2: And I just want to say this right now that

1716
01:40:16,040 --> 01:40:19,160
Speaker 2: regardless of what they say about it, we're going to

1717
01:40:19,280 --> 01:40:22,040
Speaker 2: keep it. And then he ends his speech this way,

1718
01:40:22,080 --> 01:40:24,680
Speaker 2: I'm submitting to you, the American people, my side of

1719
01:40:24,720 --> 01:40:26,400
Speaker 2: the case. I am proud of the fact that I've

1720
01:40:26,400 --> 01:40:28,439
Speaker 2: got a wife and two wonderful daughters, and I don't

1721
01:40:28,439 --> 01:40:31,479
Speaker 2: intend to let the American people down. But ultimately the

1722
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:35,280
Speaker 2: decision is not mine, it's yours. Now, the speech worked,

1723
01:40:36,120 --> 01:40:38,240
Speaker 2: and why how do they determine that the speech work, Well,

1724
01:40:38,280 --> 01:40:40,840
Speaker 2: they got a whole bunch of Back then, people would

1725
01:40:40,840 --> 01:40:43,120
Speaker 2: send it in telegrams to let you know if they

1726
01:40:43,240 --> 01:40:47,040
Speaker 2: liked something. They got four hundred telegrams to one they

1727
01:40:47,080 --> 01:40:50,360
Speaker 2: claimed in favor of keeping Nixon. Even The New York

1728
01:40:50,400 --> 01:40:52,880
Speaker 2: Times described it as a masterful use of the new

1729
01:40:52,920 --> 01:40:55,880
Speaker 2: medium of television to appeal over the heads of party

1730
01:40:55,960 --> 01:41:01,200
Speaker 2: leaders directly to the voters. Now here's the irony. Everything

1731
01:41:01,240 --> 01:41:02,640
Speaker 2: in this New York Post.

1732
01:41:02,400 --> 01:41:04,000
Speaker 1: Report was true.

1733
01:41:04,160 --> 01:41:07,240
Speaker 2: Nixon really did have a private expense fund. About eighteen

1734
01:41:07,280 --> 01:41:10,240
Speaker 2: thousand dollars was raised, which is the equivalent of about

1735
01:41:10,280 --> 01:41:13,519
Speaker 2: two hundred thousand dollars today. Donors contributed it to cover

1736
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:16,840
Speaker 2: his travel political expenses, which were not fully reimbursed by

1737
01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:20,920
Speaker 2: the Senate. Now, this fund wasn't illegal, and Nixon didn't

1738
01:41:20,960 --> 01:41:23,320
Speaker 2: pocket the money for personal gain, But the optics were

1739
01:41:23,320 --> 01:41:26,800
Speaker 2: bad because it looked like wealthy donors were secretly bankrolling

1740
01:41:26,840 --> 01:41:31,560
Speaker 2: his career. Because guess what, wealthy donors were always bankrolling

1741
01:41:31,560 --> 01:41:34,320
Speaker 2: his career. Whether it was secret, I think is sort

1742
01:41:34,360 --> 01:41:39,880
Speaker 2: of up for debate. But the bottom line was this

1743
01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:44,000
Speaker 2: story was true, and he just put a different spin

1744
01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:48,639
Speaker 2: on it. He didn't deny it existed, but he went

1745
01:41:48,680 --> 01:41:52,920
Speaker 2: on television and he made his appeal without having to

1746
01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:58,000
Speaker 2: deal with a reporter questioning him. It completely transformed how

1747
01:41:59,280 --> 01:42:04,760
Speaker 2: politicians dealt with controversial things. It made television these things

1748
01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:07,640
Speaker 2: now the irony is here. TV save save Nixon in

1749
01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:10,519
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty two, and then of course the first televised

1750
01:42:10,520 --> 01:42:15,320
Speaker 2: debates in nineteen sixty would doom Nixon, right, you may

1751
01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:17,920
Speaker 2: you may make note that this is the second you

1752
01:42:17,960 --> 01:42:20,160
Speaker 2: know here. I have done this three times in this

1753
01:42:20,200 --> 01:42:22,360
Speaker 2: month of September so far, and two of the anecdotes

1754
01:42:22,400 --> 01:42:28,080
Speaker 2: or Nixon, I would I would submit that Nixon is

1755
01:42:28,120 --> 01:42:34,320
Speaker 2: probably in the twentieth century, the single most important elected

1756
01:42:35,080 --> 01:42:40,559
Speaker 2: politician we had in the twentieth century. All he whether

1757
01:42:40,600 --> 01:42:46,439
Speaker 2: it was pioneering political consultants in nineteen fifty being the

1758
01:42:46,520 --> 01:42:49,200
Speaker 2: first to use television to try to go around the

1759
01:42:49,320 --> 01:42:52,000
Speaker 2: press and try to create his own press, try to

1760
01:42:52,000 --> 01:42:55,440
Speaker 2: create his own communications to everything he did as president,

1761
01:42:55,479 --> 01:42:58,640
Speaker 2: which you know, sort of created all sorts. You know,

1762
01:42:58,960 --> 01:43:03,320
Speaker 2: we didn't used to report, we had no campaign finance laws. Ever,

1763
01:43:03,720 --> 01:43:06,880
Speaker 2: you had no idea who was funding what elections, how

1764
01:43:06,920 --> 01:43:10,080
Speaker 2: much money was being spent. There was no reporting mechanism whatsoever.

1765
01:43:10,439 --> 01:43:13,559
Speaker 2: The point was is that for better or for worse,

1766
01:43:14,600 --> 01:43:18,000
Speaker 2: Nixon was sort of almost like Forrest Gump, right in

1767
01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:22,680
Speaker 2: that he was a part or influenced so many aspects,

1768
01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:28,000
Speaker 2: whether it was American foreign policy, how political campaigns are done,

1769
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:31,320
Speaker 2: the Republican Party. And I would submit to you, Look,

1770
01:43:31,680 --> 01:43:34,880
Speaker 2: without Nixon, you wouldn't have Trump.

1771
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:37,360
Speaker 1: So it is, it is.

1772
01:43:37,439 --> 01:43:42,720
Speaker 2: It is quite the lineage anyway, the Checker speech completely.

1773
01:43:42,760 --> 01:43:46,040
Speaker 2: You know now, of course what what Donald Trump's his

1774
01:43:46,160 --> 01:43:49,200
Speaker 2: version of the Checkers speech is to was Twitter, right,

1775
01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:51,880
Speaker 2: Instead of using television to go around people, he used

1776
01:43:51,920 --> 01:43:57,080
Speaker 2: social media. So it is. The Checker speech is one

1777
01:43:57,080 --> 01:44:00,559
Speaker 2: of those. And this week's anniversary of it is a

1778
01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:04,759
Speaker 2: good time. You should go take a look at it.

1779
01:44:04,760 --> 01:44:07,280
Speaker 2: It's you can find it anywhere on YouTube. It's a

1780
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:13,000
Speaker 2: good listen, but it's a It was a pioneering moment

1781
01:44:14,439 --> 01:44:19,200
Speaker 2: in political communications, and it sort of sort of set

1782
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:22,759
Speaker 2: us on a path. And look, if it wasn't Nixon,

1783
01:44:22,800 --> 01:44:26,040
Speaker 2: somebody else probably would have tried this and found success.

1784
01:44:26,080 --> 01:44:26,599
Speaker 1: At the time.

1785
01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:31,519
Speaker 2: Nixon just happened to be the first one under threat

1786
01:44:31,560 --> 01:44:34,800
Speaker 2: of having his political career and before it really began,

1787
01:44:36,920 --> 01:44:40,880
Speaker 2: and he decided to use television to save it. And

1788
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:44,799
Speaker 2: the irony is that to save himself from.

1789
01:44:44,680 --> 01:44:48,639
Speaker 1: A story that was true. It was not as if

1790
01:44:48,640 --> 01:44:53,120
Speaker 1: this story was not true, all right, So.

1791
01:44:53,080 --> 01:44:55,160
Speaker 2: With that, let me take a couple of questions here

1792
01:44:55,240 --> 01:44:57,719
Speaker 2: before I get to my college football updates, ask Chuck.

1793
01:44:59,080 --> 01:45:02,080
Speaker 2: First question comes from Drew a and he writes, Hey,

1794
01:45:02,200 --> 01:45:04,960
Speaker 2: podcast team, is there a scenario where a mom Donnie's brand?

1795
01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:08,160
Speaker 2: Does socialism actually helps independence like Dan Osborne by giving

1796
01:45:08,160 --> 01:45:11,040
Speaker 2: them a sharper contrast not just against Republicans tied to Trump,

1797
01:45:11,200 --> 01:45:14,200
Speaker 2: but also against Democrats flirting with socialism and letting them

1798
01:45:14,280 --> 01:45:18,519
Speaker 2: argue that both parties are failing in different ways. He

1799
01:45:18,560 --> 01:45:24,639
Speaker 2: writes Cocaine's GW Class of twenty ten, I don't think

1800
01:45:25,080 --> 01:45:27,400
Speaker 2: Here's why I don't think it's going to help Osborne

1801
01:45:27,439 --> 01:45:30,720
Speaker 2: in twenty six. Look, I'm going to start off with

1802
01:45:30,800 --> 01:45:36,080
Speaker 2: I'm a huge skeptic of whether democratic socialism can succeed,

1803
01:45:36,760 --> 01:45:40,799
Speaker 2: not just not just as a way to convince voters

1804
01:45:40,800 --> 01:45:44,960
Speaker 2: to vote for it, but even as a policy implementing

1805
01:45:45,040 --> 01:45:49,160
Speaker 2: these policies that I'm skeptical that he's going to be

1806
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:51,800
Speaker 2: able to pull this off. But the point is is

1807
01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:55,439
Speaker 2: that if it's going to end up being a net positive,

1808
01:45:57,560 --> 01:46:00,160
Speaker 2: he's got a I think it would take a it

1809
01:46:00,160 --> 01:46:03,400
Speaker 2: would take a term of Mom Donnie succeeding for it

1810
01:46:03,640 --> 01:46:07,600
Speaker 2: then to have, you know, maybe by twenty you know,

1811
01:46:07,640 --> 01:46:10,760
Speaker 2: if he is able to implement some of his policies

1812
01:46:10,760 --> 01:46:12,960
Speaker 2: and they work, somehow, he somehow finds a way to

1813
01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:16,360
Speaker 2: find the money to implement these things. And I just

1814
01:46:16,479 --> 01:46:18,519
Speaker 2: that's to me, that's the big question. Where's he going

1815
01:46:18,600 --> 01:46:19,840
Speaker 2: to get this money? I mean, he always says he

1816
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:21,439
Speaker 2: wants to get it from Wall Street and all this stuff,

1817
01:46:21,600 --> 01:46:24,799
Speaker 2: But realistically, is he going to be able to somehow

1818
01:46:26,240 --> 01:46:29,320
Speaker 2: either get the cooperation of the state legislature to help

1819
01:46:29,400 --> 01:46:30,880
Speaker 2: him do this or the cooperation of the New York

1820
01:46:30,880 --> 01:46:35,360
Speaker 2: City Council. And I'm just skeptical on the implementation front.

1821
01:46:36,320 --> 01:46:40,040
Speaker 2: But even if he is, I don't think there's anything

1822
01:46:40,120 --> 01:46:45,160
Speaker 2: to quote unquote succeed with yet in time to help

1823
01:46:45,280 --> 01:46:49,679
Speaker 2: anybody in twenty six. But I do think if you're

1824
01:46:49,840 --> 01:46:54,880
Speaker 2: if I'm look, I think the S word is just

1825
01:46:55,200 --> 01:46:58,479
Speaker 2: impossible to fix. I do not think there is going

1826
01:46:58,560 --> 01:47:01,880
Speaker 2: to be any way to somehow make that that the

1827
01:47:01,960 --> 01:47:06,280
Speaker 2: Democrats can lean into this and and successfully stay in

1828
01:47:06,360 --> 01:47:10,400
Speaker 2: national a competitive national party. And I've gone through this

1829
01:47:10,479 --> 01:47:12,640
Speaker 2: with you know, I please take a look at the

1830
01:47:12,640 --> 01:47:14,519
Speaker 2: sub stack. I wrote a couple of weeks ago about this,

1831
01:47:15,160 --> 01:47:19,640
Speaker 2: but the but, but the s words socialism in New

1832
01:47:19,720 --> 01:47:23,160
Speaker 2: England right home of Bernie Sanders, or even in the

1833
01:47:23,200 --> 01:47:24,799
Speaker 2: Northeast where Mom.

1834
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:30,439
Speaker 1: Donnie is, when you think of socialism, you're.

1835
01:47:30,320 --> 01:47:34,240
Speaker 2: More likely to think of the European socialism down in

1836
01:47:34,320 --> 01:47:36,439
Speaker 2: a Sun belt all right where I grew up in Miami,

1837
01:47:36,520 --> 01:47:38,240
Speaker 2: particularly in Florida. And you know, I've made this point

1838
01:47:38,320 --> 01:47:40,240
Speaker 2: quite a bit, but this is also I think true

1839
01:47:40,680 --> 01:47:44,000
Speaker 2: throughout the Sun Belt. Right. We have a lot of first, second,

1840
01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:48,760
Speaker 2: and third generation Latino voters, many of them come come

1841
01:47:48,800 --> 01:47:51,800
Speaker 2: from countries or have or come from countries who are

1842
01:47:51,800 --> 01:47:59,000
Speaker 2: neighbors with countries that we were sort of socialist regimes

1843
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:04,559
Speaker 2: that either became authoritarian or bordered on authoritarianism. So that

1844
01:48:04,760 --> 01:48:07,400
Speaker 2: to a lot of Latino voters, they hear the word

1845
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:09,719
Speaker 2: socialism and they think authoritarianism. First.

1846
01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:10,599
Speaker 1: They don't think.

1847
01:48:11,960 --> 01:48:16,960
Speaker 2: Government funded policies, right, they don't think universal health care.

1848
01:48:17,240 --> 01:48:22,360
Speaker 2: They don't think rent control, and I think that that

1849
01:48:22,600 --> 01:48:27,040
Speaker 2: is what makes the branding of this just. I think

1850
01:48:27,400 --> 01:48:32,240
Speaker 2: that hard. I might even use the word toxic, okay,

1851
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:35,160
Speaker 2: and I say it not to I know the specific

1852
01:48:35,320 --> 01:48:38,960
Speaker 2: ideas many some of the ideas that Mamdani is calling

1853
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:42,200
Speaker 2: for are popular when you put them to a poll test.

1854
01:48:42,880 --> 01:48:46,120
Speaker 2: But I will submit anytime. You know, there's a lot

1855
01:48:46,120 --> 01:48:48,479
Speaker 2: of things that are popular. If you say, hey, would

1856
01:48:48,520 --> 01:48:50,400
Speaker 2: you like the government to do this, the answer is yes,

1857
01:48:50,439 --> 01:48:51,719
Speaker 2: now here's how much it will cost?

1858
01:48:51,760 --> 01:48:52,640
Speaker 1: Will you pay for this?

1859
01:48:52,680 --> 01:48:55,519
Speaker 2: Well, then the answer is no, right on those things.

1860
01:48:56,000 --> 01:49:01,160
Speaker 2: So the specific part of your question is just simply timing, right.

1861
01:49:01,320 --> 01:49:04,200
Speaker 2: I think Mom Donnie has to have success for it

1862
01:49:04,320 --> 01:49:07,759
Speaker 2: to translate on the campaign traip I do on that front,

1863
01:49:07,880 --> 01:49:12,000
Speaker 2: all right. Next question comes from Max Beck from Philadelphia,

1864
01:49:12,680 --> 01:49:16,840
Speaker 2: who also notes he's proudly Delaware born. Hey, Jack, I'm

1865
01:49:16,840 --> 01:49:19,439
Speaker 2: a Duke med student doing a doing a research year

1866
01:49:19,439 --> 01:49:21,680
Speaker 2: in pediatric brain tumors, and I often listen to the

1867
01:49:21,720 --> 01:49:24,600
Speaker 2: podcast while in the lab. I've long been interested in redistricting.

1868
01:49:24,640 --> 01:49:26,600
Speaker 2: I was struck by Senator Roger Marshall's full throat of

1869
01:49:26,640 --> 01:49:30,080
Speaker 2: defense of RFK Junior and his spread of medical misinformation.

1870
01:49:30,200 --> 01:49:32,559
Speaker 2: Given that and the impact of Trump era tariffs and

1871
01:49:32,680 --> 01:49:34,640
Speaker 2: us a i D cuts on Kansas farmers, do you

1872
01:49:34,640 --> 01:49:37,360
Speaker 2: think Democrats should target Marshall c or at least invest

1873
01:49:37,400 --> 01:49:40,120
Speaker 2: now to build competitiveness for the future. His comments as

1874
01:49:40,120 --> 01:49:44,719
Speaker 2: a physician felt especially misleading and troubling. Look, I do think,

1875
01:49:44,800 --> 01:49:47,719
Speaker 2: you know, Mark, I think when you just look at

1876
01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:55,160
Speaker 2: Kansas in general and demographically, it has three major it

1877
01:49:55,200 --> 01:49:59,240
Speaker 2: has three you know, decent sized media markets to Peka, Wichita,

1878
01:49:59,400 --> 01:50:01,880
Speaker 2: and can in Kansas City right the Kansas side of

1879
01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:06,400
Speaker 2: Kansas City. When you look at other purple states, you

1880
01:50:06,439 --> 01:50:10,400
Speaker 2: know that having having at least three media markets of

1881
01:50:10,439 --> 01:50:15,080
Speaker 2: that of a certain size is usually a recipe for that. Right,

1882
01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:19,719
Speaker 2: Virginia has Richmond, Norfolk Virginia, you know, Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Richmond,

1883
01:50:20,720 --> 01:50:25,040
Speaker 2: d c Roanoke. You know, so North Carolina has multiple

1884
01:50:25,080 --> 01:50:27,240
Speaker 2: so you you do need that. So Kansas has that.

1885
01:50:27,320 --> 01:50:30,799
Speaker 2: They have a couple of fairly decent sized college towns

1886
01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:36,000
Speaker 2: in Lawrence and Manhattan are pretty big state schools. So

1887
01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:39,920
Speaker 2: and you've had now Democrats, have you had a where

1888
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:42,559
Speaker 2: the Republican brand went too far to the right and

1889
01:50:42,560 --> 01:50:45,240
Speaker 2: that seemed to alienate a lot of moderate Republicans who

1890
01:50:45,800 --> 01:50:48,599
Speaker 2: became independent, some of them even switch parties. A few

1891
01:50:48,640 --> 01:50:52,840
Speaker 2: of them ended up as Democrats. So I do think

1892
01:50:52,880 --> 01:50:58,080
Speaker 2: there is a Kansas Democratic Kansas Democrat brand that's similar

1893
01:50:58,080 --> 01:51:00,800
Speaker 2: to like a Kentucky Democrat brand that Andy Bursheer has

1894
01:51:01,680 --> 01:51:04,160
Speaker 2: that I think you could separate yourself from sort of

1895
01:51:04,160 --> 01:51:07,479
Speaker 2: the national brand that you know, there hasn't been a

1896
01:51:07,479 --> 01:51:11,920
Speaker 2: Democratic elected US senator since before FDR. Okay, so you

1897
01:51:12,040 --> 01:51:14,879
Speaker 2: got to go way back into the way back machine

1898
01:51:15,600 --> 01:51:18,840
Speaker 2: to find evidence of a Democrat winning a US Senate

1899
01:51:18,880 --> 01:51:22,479
Speaker 2: seed in Kansas. But when you look at the map

1900
01:51:22,600 --> 01:51:24,560
Speaker 2: and I outline this in a substack a couple of

1901
01:51:24,560 --> 01:51:26,679
Speaker 2: weeks ago, it's the same substack where I talked about

1902
01:51:26,680 --> 01:51:29,000
Speaker 2: the branding issue with socialism and how troubling it was

1903
01:51:29,400 --> 01:51:32,960
Speaker 2: because it was just shrinking the map for Democrats to

1904
01:51:33,000 --> 01:51:36,120
Speaker 2: find places to win Senate seats. Right now, if they

1905
01:51:36,160 --> 01:51:38,880
Speaker 2: won every single Senate seat in the seven battleground states

1906
01:51:38,880 --> 01:51:41,559
Speaker 2: plus every blue state, they'd.

1907
01:51:41,360 --> 01:51:42,599
Speaker 1: Have fifty two macs.

1908
01:51:43,439 --> 01:51:49,600
Speaker 2: Right So they've got to put Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, Mississippi, Alaska, Ohio.

1909
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:53,559
Speaker 2: They've got to put these states in play. They've got

1910
01:51:53,560 --> 01:51:57,559
Speaker 2: to give themselves more potential opportunities that are realistic to

1911
01:51:57,640 --> 01:52:02,280
Speaker 2: win Senate seats. And I think Kansas for everything you

1912
01:52:02,439 --> 01:52:07,519
Speaker 2: just outlined, I think mostly really due to aid cuts

1913
01:52:07,520 --> 01:52:09,679
Speaker 2: and tariffs. I think all I think the three farm

1914
01:52:09,720 --> 01:52:12,680
Speaker 2: states in general, Nebraska, Iowa, and Kansas. I think all

1915
01:52:12,760 --> 01:52:15,839
Speaker 2: of them have the potential where tariffs could could really bite.

1916
01:52:16,320 --> 01:52:17,240
Speaker 1: But you know, you.

1917
01:52:17,240 --> 01:52:21,040
Speaker 2: Gotta I'm a little more bullish on Kansas than I

1918
01:52:21,080 --> 01:52:27,560
Speaker 2: am Nebraska because Kansas has elected democratic governors, right, Sibilia's

1919
01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:30,840
Speaker 2: got two terms or Kelly got two terms. So this

1920
01:52:31,000 --> 01:52:34,040
Speaker 2: isn't again you got to brand yourself as a Kansas Democrat.

1921
01:52:34,080 --> 01:52:35,840
Speaker 2: You got to sort of separate yourself a little bit.

1922
01:52:35,880 --> 01:52:38,200
Speaker 2: But I think it's real, and I think it's a huge.

1923
01:52:38,200 --> 01:52:41,000
Speaker 2: In fact, I think it's a a This goes to

1924
01:52:41,080 --> 01:52:44,439
Speaker 2: the there is no leader of the Democratic Party. They

1925
01:52:44,479 --> 01:52:46,760
Speaker 2: don't think about party building because this is the state.

1926
01:52:46,880 --> 01:52:50,400
Speaker 2: Arguably they should have been targeting more seriously.

1927
01:52:52,479 --> 01:52:53,240
Speaker 1: A few years ago.

1928
01:52:53,439 --> 01:52:57,639
Speaker 2: Right, the evidence of Kansas pushing back on going too

1929
01:52:57,640 --> 01:53:00,479
Speaker 2: far to the right happened during Sam brownback'svenorship.

1930
01:53:00,760 --> 01:53:02,280
Speaker 1: Well that was nearly a decade ago.

1931
01:53:04,040 --> 01:53:06,599
Speaker 2: All Right, last question for to day, and then I'll

1932
01:53:06,600 --> 01:53:08,040
Speaker 2: do my little college football roundup.

1933
01:53:08,240 --> 01:53:08,599
Speaker 4: Hey check.

1934
01:53:08,640 --> 01:53:10,680
Speaker 2: I agree that local news coverage provides huge value to

1935
01:53:10,720 --> 01:53:13,360
Speaker 2: the public in terms of transparency and local politics, and

1936
01:53:13,400 --> 01:53:15,519
Speaker 2: that we've lost that in many markets. My question is,

1937
01:53:15,560 --> 01:53:17,760
Speaker 2: if we move beyond the easy answer of money, what

1938
01:53:17,800 --> 01:53:20,360
Speaker 2: else do these local news organizations need to be successful?

1939
01:53:20,600 --> 01:53:24,439
Speaker 2: Local talent, a means of distribution, the newsroom that supports research,

1940
01:53:24,479 --> 01:53:27,240
Speaker 2: assignments and editorial Is it something else completely? How do

1941
01:53:27,320 --> 01:53:29,880
Speaker 2: the current efforts at limiting freedom of speech impact your answer?

1942
01:53:29,880 --> 01:53:33,920
Speaker 2: Thanks for the show and detailed discussions you do, Terrell. Look,

1943
01:53:33,960 --> 01:53:38,000
Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing is that you need a business. Uh,

1944
01:53:38,080 --> 01:53:42,120
Speaker 2: you need a revenue stream for local news rights. What

1945
01:53:42,120 --> 01:53:47,200
Speaker 2: what local news needs to succeed is to find a

1946
01:53:47,280 --> 01:53:50,840
Speaker 2: replacement for classified advertising. Classified advertising, for a good hundred

1947
01:53:50,920 --> 01:53:55,240
Speaker 2: years was the lifeline for local news, right, the ability

1948
01:53:55,280 --> 01:53:58,920
Speaker 2: to you know that that was the consistent revenue you

1949
01:53:58,960 --> 01:53:59,599
Speaker 2: could count on.

1950
01:54:00,400 --> 01:54:01,160
Speaker 1: It was the only.

1951
01:54:01,000 --> 01:54:03,439
Speaker 2: Place locally to go look for a job, to go

1952
01:54:03,479 --> 01:54:05,479
Speaker 2: buy and sell a use car, to go buy and

1953
01:54:05,520 --> 01:54:09,439
Speaker 2: sell use furniture. You get my drift, right, So losing

1954
01:54:09,479 --> 01:54:12,759
Speaker 2: all of that to Craig Right, Craig's List or Facebook

1955
01:54:12,760 --> 01:54:14,599
Speaker 2: marketplace or all these other entities.

1956
01:54:15,120 --> 01:54:15,320
Speaker 1: You know.

1957
01:54:15,360 --> 01:54:18,720
Speaker 2: So what local news needs is that the second thing, though,

1958
01:54:18,720 --> 01:54:25,080
Speaker 2: that local news needs to succeed is a mindset of

1959
01:54:25,160 --> 01:54:30,680
Speaker 2: service journalism, meaning help people live their lives. And not

1960
01:54:30,880 --> 01:54:34,920
Speaker 2: every news story has to be, you know, an attempt

1961
01:54:34,960 --> 01:54:38,879
Speaker 2: to go win the Pulitzer Prize. Sometimes you're just simply

1962
01:54:38,920 --> 01:54:45,760
Speaker 2: helping people find it cheaper chicken. You're helping people find

1963
01:54:46,480 --> 01:54:50,680
Speaker 2: a better way to plant flowers. You're helping people find

1964
01:54:51,640 --> 01:54:54,520
Speaker 2: an easier way to get to work, You're helping people

1965
01:54:54,640 --> 01:55:02,160
Speaker 2: find a better way to enroll their kids in youth sports.

1966
01:55:03,120 --> 01:55:06,800
Speaker 2: So I think that you know, right now, when we

1967
01:55:06,840 --> 01:55:09,919
Speaker 2: talk about the crisis of local news, it just doesn't exist.

1968
01:55:10,520 --> 01:55:14,240
Speaker 2: And everybody immediately like zooms in on journalism for journalists.

1969
01:55:15,320 --> 01:55:16,800
Speaker 2: And the thing is is that we have a trust

1970
01:55:16,800 --> 01:55:20,640
Speaker 2: issue first, So I view it as an opportunity to

1971
01:55:20,640 --> 01:55:24,200
Speaker 2: rebuild trust with media in general. And if you focus

1972
01:55:24,280 --> 01:55:27,400
Speaker 2: on being public servants and helping people live their lives.

1973
01:55:27,920 --> 01:55:30,000
Speaker 2: Number one, I hope you have journalists that want to

1974
01:55:30,040 --> 01:55:32,720
Speaker 2: live in the community and stay in the community. I'm

1975
01:55:32,760 --> 01:55:34,800
Speaker 2: not saying, you know, I don't want people trapped in jobs,

1976
01:55:35,200 --> 01:55:38,560
Speaker 2: but I do think that that makes for a healthier

1977
01:55:38,560 --> 01:55:42,840
Speaker 2: and a more robust local information ecosystem if there is

1978
01:55:42,840 --> 01:55:45,280
Speaker 2: a consistent group of people who stay and want to

1979
01:55:45,320 --> 01:55:48,800
Speaker 2: do it right rather than just people coming in using

1980
01:55:48,840 --> 01:55:53,680
Speaker 2: it as a stepping stone and leaving. But the biggest

1981
01:55:53,680 --> 01:55:56,240
Speaker 2: thing that we need to find is a revenue stream,

1982
01:55:56,240 --> 01:55:59,640
Speaker 2: because nonprofit's not going to be the answer on this.

1983
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:03,400
Speaker 2: But if I were to say what am I looking for,

1984
01:56:03,480 --> 01:56:04,920
Speaker 2: it's almost a mindset change.

1985
01:56:06,640 --> 01:56:08,080
Speaker 1: And we need to have.

1986
01:56:08,120 --> 01:56:12,120
Speaker 2: Journalism schools emphasize service journalism as well as accountability journalism.

1987
01:56:12,680 --> 01:56:17,120
Speaker 2: Not all journalism is woodward and burnstay. Some journalism is

1988
01:56:17,160 --> 01:56:21,280
Speaker 2: simply helping people figure out how to navigate the community,

1989
01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:26,120
Speaker 2: whatever that means on any given day. And it's those

1990
01:56:26,160 --> 01:56:32,360
Speaker 2: little things that build the trust so that then they

1991
01:56:32,400 --> 01:56:35,360
Speaker 2: will believe you when you tell them the mayor's corrupt,

1992
01:56:35,680 --> 01:56:37,680
Speaker 2: or they will believe you when you tell them that

1993
01:56:37,760 --> 01:56:40,480
Speaker 2: the borders are is taking a bag of cash from

1994
01:56:40,600 --> 01:56:44,320
Speaker 2: Kava and promising government contracts in return.

1995
01:56:45,480 --> 01:56:46,920
Speaker 1: See how I turned it all the way around.

1996
01:56:47,320 --> 01:56:49,680
Speaker 2: All right, So with that, appreciate the questions this week

1997
01:56:49,720 --> 01:56:53,160
Speaker 2: a little so as I tea stepped top I was

1998
01:56:53,200 --> 01:56:56,000
Speaker 2: at I was in Miami for the Miami Florida game.

1999
01:56:56,200 --> 01:56:58,880
Speaker 2: It's my second University of Miami game this year. I

2000
01:56:58,880 --> 01:57:01,240
Speaker 2: was at the Notre Dame game. Made it down for that.

2001
01:57:02,240 --> 01:57:07,240
Speaker 2: It was raining the whole time, and I think that

2002
01:57:07,400 --> 01:57:10,760
Speaker 2: is why you saw. I was a little frustrated that

2003
01:57:11,400 --> 01:57:14,680
Speaker 2: this was the worst offensive performance that Miami's had so

2004
01:57:14,760 --> 01:57:19,480
Speaker 2: far this year. Part of it, I think was the

2005
01:57:19,520 --> 01:57:24,280
Speaker 2: wet ball, but part of it was it was really

2006
01:57:24,320 --> 01:57:28,440
Speaker 2: good Florida Gator's defense. The fact is, while Carson Beck

2007
01:57:28,520 --> 01:57:30,200
Speaker 2: had all the time in the world when he needed it,

2008
01:57:30,240 --> 01:57:35,560
Speaker 2: he couldn't find open receivers. Eventually they figured out that

2009
01:57:35,800 --> 01:57:38,840
Speaker 2: if you just did the little the little flares to

2010
01:57:38,880 --> 01:57:41,200
Speaker 2: the running backs, that those were open and they could

2011
01:57:41,240 --> 01:57:44,600
Speaker 2: do some real damage. Uh and both Mark Fletcher and

2012
01:57:44,720 --> 01:57:47,760
Speaker 2: uh and Marty Brown did a ton of damage there.

2013
01:57:48,200 --> 01:57:50,320
Speaker 2: So there's you know, it's funny when you're a fan,

2014
01:57:50,640 --> 01:57:52,880
Speaker 2: you know you can nit pick the crap out of

2015
01:57:52,880 --> 01:57:56,440
Speaker 2: your team. You know, everybody is throwing the accolades right

2016
01:57:56,480 --> 01:57:59,040
Speaker 2: now at my beloved Miami Hurricanes and maybe they're the

2017
01:57:59,040 --> 01:58:01,280
Speaker 2: best team in the country. Maybe this maybe that, And

2018
01:58:01,280 --> 01:58:03,720
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there going, boy did they play a terrible game.

2019
01:58:04,080 --> 01:58:08,120
Speaker 2: But here's the upside over the last ten years when

2020
01:58:08,120 --> 01:58:10,240
Speaker 2: they played a game like that, they usually lost. Those

2021
01:58:10,280 --> 01:58:12,160
Speaker 2: games like that was a game that was sitting there

2022
01:58:12,160 --> 01:58:14,040
Speaker 2: when it's thirteen to nothing. I said to my daughter,

2023
01:58:14,080 --> 01:58:16,760
Speaker 2: I said, this is not good. We should be up twenty,

2024
01:58:16,760 --> 01:58:18,520
Speaker 2: We should be up three or four scores, and the

2025
01:58:18,560 --> 01:58:21,200
Speaker 2: fact that we're not means one score. And that suddenly

2026
01:58:21,240 --> 01:58:23,560
Speaker 2: it's a one score game. And sure enough, right from

2027
01:58:23,560 --> 01:58:25,520
Speaker 2: the about five minutes left to go, it's a one

2028
01:58:25,560 --> 01:58:30,120
Speaker 2: score game. And I know and every Miami fan was

2029
01:58:30,160 --> 01:58:32,000
Speaker 2: thinking the same thing. I was thinking, like, oh no,

2030
01:58:33,040 --> 01:58:35,240
Speaker 2: the same thing's about to happen again. Miami's going to

2031
01:58:35,280 --> 01:58:37,960
Speaker 2: figure out how to blow this. They're gonna Georgia tech

2032
01:58:38,000 --> 01:58:41,280
Speaker 2: it up. They're gonna Syracuse it up like what happened

2033
01:58:41,360 --> 01:58:46,320
Speaker 2: last year and then they didn't. Number One, they have

2034
01:58:46,360 --> 01:58:50,160
Speaker 2: a beast of a defense that is fantastic. They have

2035
01:58:50,360 --> 01:58:52,960
Speaker 2: an amazing offensive line. When they need to just get

2036
01:58:52,960 --> 01:58:54,920
Speaker 2: two or three yards, they get two or three yards.

2037
01:58:55,080 --> 01:58:57,360
Speaker 2: In fact, their offensive line is so good. I'm hoping

2038
01:58:57,440 --> 01:58:59,800
Speaker 2: my Green Bay Packers can borrow some of these offensive

2039
01:58:59,800 --> 01:59:02,120
Speaker 2: line that the University of Miami have, because if they

2040
01:59:02,160 --> 01:59:04,440
Speaker 2: clearly have a problem, they couldn't do anything to stop

2041
01:59:04,480 --> 01:59:08,680
Speaker 2: the to to move the Cleveland defensive line on Sunday

2042
01:59:08,720 --> 01:59:09,600
Speaker 2: and that so.

2043
01:59:11,800 --> 01:59:12,120
Speaker 1: I am.

2044
01:59:12,720 --> 01:59:17,000
Speaker 2: I'm relieved that Miami got a victory there, and I'm

2045
01:59:17,000 --> 01:59:19,520
Speaker 2: relieved they have a week off because in two weeks

2046
01:59:19,560 --> 01:59:22,920
Speaker 2: it is Miami Florida State. And yes, that game's in Tallahassee,

2047
01:59:23,200 --> 01:59:25,840
Speaker 2: and yes I'll be going to that, and yes we're

2048
01:59:25,880 --> 01:59:29,080
Speaker 2: a divided household on that. So I don't know if

2049
01:59:29,120 --> 01:59:32,000
Speaker 2: I'm coming back on separate planes or not. We will

2050
01:59:32,040 --> 01:59:36,440
Speaker 2: see how the game ends up, right, Is it a

2051
01:59:36,480 --> 01:59:39,440
Speaker 2: super close game where a rematch is inevitable between Miami

2052
01:59:39,480 --> 01:59:42,400
Speaker 2: and Florida State, or is it not close for one

2053
01:59:42,440 --> 01:59:47,520
Speaker 2: of us and there's some bitterness that takes over and

2054
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:51,720
Speaker 2: then we'll want to find a new seat on the plane.

2055
01:59:51,520 --> 01:59:55,120
Speaker 2: I kid, I think on that. A few other things

2056
01:59:56,040 --> 02:00:00,520
Speaker 2: from the weekend that I thought was of notes. Look,

2057
02:00:00,560 --> 02:00:04,720
Speaker 2: we're really screwing up college football rivalries. For instance, Miami

2058
02:00:04,720 --> 02:00:06,880
Speaker 2: and Florida aren't gonna play whether they're not scheduled to play,

2059
02:00:06,920 --> 02:00:09,200
Speaker 2: and they made never play in the regular season for

2060
02:00:09,320 --> 02:00:11,920
Speaker 2: some time with these new you know demands at the

2061
02:00:11,960 --> 02:00:16,920
Speaker 2: SEC schedule nine conference games. Florida already has a mandatory

2062
02:00:16,920 --> 02:00:19,560
Speaker 2: game with Florida State. The state legislature mandates that game

2063
02:00:20,440 --> 02:00:23,200
Speaker 2: as their tenth Power four conference. They're not they're not

2064
02:00:23,440 --> 02:00:27,560
Speaker 2: going to be enthusiastic about adding Miami to that schedule.

2065
02:00:28,200 --> 02:00:30,800
Speaker 2: Steve Spurrier dropped us the first time when he took

2066
02:00:30,800 --> 02:00:33,960
Speaker 2: over because he was trying to make Florida's schedule easier

2067
02:00:34,000 --> 02:00:37,080
Speaker 2: so that they could they could they could have a

2068
02:00:37,120 --> 02:00:42,400
Speaker 2: better record. The TCUSMU rivalry for the Iron Skillet. They

2069
02:00:42,400 --> 02:00:44,720
Speaker 2: may have played their last version of that rivalry for

2070
02:00:44,760 --> 02:00:47,920
Speaker 2: at least five years, maybe longer. Because ones in the

2071
02:00:47,920 --> 02:00:50,000
Speaker 2: Big twelve, ones in the ACC and the same thing. Right,

2072
02:00:50,080 --> 02:00:53,160
Speaker 2: all these conferences are trying to they got it there.

2073
02:00:53,200 --> 02:00:55,839
Speaker 2: They're so big, you've got to make time to actually

2074
02:00:55,880 --> 02:00:59,760
Speaker 2: play the actual teams in your conference. So having these

2075
02:01:00,000 --> 02:01:03,160
Speaker 2: out of conference rivalries are just going to be harder

2076
02:01:03,200 --> 02:01:05,360
Speaker 2: and harder to keep up. I mean the fact that

2077
02:01:05,400 --> 02:01:07,880
Speaker 2: the weekend had the Apple Cup in Washington and the

2078
02:01:07,920 --> 02:01:11,200
Speaker 2: Civil War and Oregon. Yeah, they're not what they used

2079
02:01:11,240 --> 02:01:13,080
Speaker 2: to be because all four of those teams used to

2080
02:01:13,080 --> 02:01:15,000
Speaker 2: be in the same conference. And by the way, those

2081
02:01:15,000 --> 02:01:16,800
Speaker 2: games used to always be in October and November, and

2082
02:01:16,840 --> 02:01:18,840
Speaker 2: they'd be rainy and they'd be cold and they'd be

2083
02:01:20,960 --> 02:01:23,800
Speaker 2: filled with intrigue because there's always at least one of

2084
02:01:23,840 --> 02:01:26,440
Speaker 2: those four teams, if not two, that were in the

2085
02:01:26,480 --> 02:01:29,560
Speaker 2: conversation for the So it's a shame that we're really

2086
02:01:29,920 --> 02:01:33,200
Speaker 2: sort of the best part of college football are some

2087
02:01:33,240 --> 02:01:37,280
Speaker 2: of these traditions and the silly trophies, the Oaken bucket

2088
02:01:37,360 --> 02:01:39,320
Speaker 2: or whatever the hell you come up with as a

2089
02:01:39,320 --> 02:01:41,920
Speaker 2: as a trophy game. But it's kind of it's kind

2090
02:01:41,920 --> 02:01:44,000
Speaker 2: of it's kind of fun, and it's terrible to see

2091
02:01:44,040 --> 02:01:47,000
Speaker 2: that happen, to see that go away. I have to

2092
02:01:47,000 --> 02:01:49,480
Speaker 2: say as much as that, I'm I go hot and

2093
02:01:49,520 --> 02:01:52,280
Speaker 2: cold on some of the antics that take place now

2094
02:01:52,280 --> 02:01:59,200
Speaker 2: on sports television. I know that my University of Miami

2095
02:01:59,240 --> 02:02:02,480
Speaker 2: Senior had a black at college game Day and the

2096
02:02:02,600 --> 02:02:06,080
Speaker 2: university I you know, I gotta thank you ESPN for

2097
02:02:06,080 --> 02:02:11,480
Speaker 2: for forgiving the university a heck of a showcase. The

2098
02:02:11,520 --> 02:02:16,000
Speaker 2: place look great, the patio look great. And you know,

2099
02:02:17,120 --> 02:02:18,920
Speaker 2: here's what I give McAfee a lot of credit for

2100
02:02:19,000 --> 02:02:20,640
Speaker 2: you because he does this with all the game day

2101
02:02:20,760 --> 02:02:23,280
Speaker 2: you know, I know some McAfee's an acquired taste for

2102
02:02:23,320 --> 02:02:26,640
Speaker 2: some people. He's not always you know, I go by

2103
02:02:26,760 --> 02:02:29,680
Speaker 2: I go hot and cold on him. But boy does

2104
02:02:29,720 --> 02:02:32,840
Speaker 2: he know how to just throw himself into the college

2105
02:02:32,840 --> 02:02:35,560
Speaker 2: student you know sort of stuff. I don't know how

2106
02:02:35,640 --> 02:02:38,280
Speaker 2: much longer he'll have that, Like in his own way,

2107
02:02:38,440 --> 02:02:42,040
Speaker 2: he might be the new Courso right. Instead of putting

2108
02:02:42,040 --> 02:02:44,520
Speaker 2: on you know mascot heeads, he's going to be doing

2109
02:02:44,880 --> 02:02:47,520
Speaker 2: you know, crazy stuff like doing high die you know,

2110
02:02:47,600 --> 02:02:49,920
Speaker 2: jumps off a high die board like he did at

2111
02:02:49,920 --> 02:02:55,760
Speaker 2: Miami or whatever. But what's interesting is is how sticky

2112
02:02:55,840 --> 02:03:00,200
Speaker 2: that is for the students that are there. So some

2113
02:03:00,240 --> 02:03:02,920
Speaker 2: of us old fogies may roll our eyes at it,

2114
02:03:04,280 --> 02:03:08,000
Speaker 2: but they're making Bud ESPN's making real connections there on

2115
02:03:08,040 --> 02:03:12,200
Speaker 2: that front. Next week, I'm glad Miami's off. But wow,

2116
02:03:12,440 --> 02:03:15,120
Speaker 2: what a college football card we have, right, it's Penn

2117
02:03:15,120 --> 02:03:17,320
Speaker 2: State and Oregon, It's George and Alabama.

2118
02:03:17,720 --> 02:03:18,760
Speaker 1: Yes, there's some other games.

2119
02:03:18,840 --> 02:03:21,120
Speaker 2: I'll get to it then, but we're going to learn

2120
02:03:21,160 --> 02:03:24,480
Speaker 2: a lot about that. And then later this week will

2121
02:03:24,520 --> 02:03:27,560
Speaker 2: there be more head coach firings. There are two one

2122
02:03:27,560 --> 02:03:32,400
Speaker 2: and three teams. Actually there'll be three, I think schools,

2123
02:03:32,440 --> 02:03:35,800
Speaker 2: big time schools where you're going to hear loud conversations

2124
02:03:35,840 --> 02:03:38,920
Speaker 2: about what is happening and what's their future. Dabo Swinney

2125
02:03:38,960 --> 02:03:42,520
Speaker 2: at Clemson, Yes, they're one and three. How's that working out?

2126
02:03:42,880 --> 02:03:45,120
Speaker 2: Billy Napier at Florida, he's one and three, And of

2127
02:03:45,120 --> 02:03:48,600
Speaker 2: course Mike Gundy at Oklahoma State. Why are they one

2128
02:03:48,640 --> 02:03:48,920
Speaker 2: and three?

2129
02:03:49,000 --> 02:03:50,040
Speaker 1: Two? They may be over.

2130
02:03:53,760 --> 02:03:57,320
Speaker 2: It's the thing that all of these those coaches have

2131
02:03:57,360 --> 02:04:00,480
Speaker 2: to worry about is the weird rules of college football.

2132
02:04:00,480 --> 02:04:00,680
Speaker 1: Now.

2133
02:04:01,280 --> 02:04:04,520
Speaker 2: You can you can play four games and then claim

2134
02:04:04,560 --> 02:04:09,680
Speaker 2: a red shirt and essentially get your eligibility back. That

2135
02:04:09,680 --> 02:04:14,360
Speaker 2: that is, if you're a Florida or Clemson and you've

2136
02:04:14,360 --> 02:04:16,160
Speaker 2: got a one and three team and you thought you

2137
02:04:16,240 --> 02:04:19,320
Speaker 2: were going to be a contender, you may have players

2138
02:04:19,360 --> 02:04:21,200
Speaker 2: that say, you know what, this coach may be out

2139
02:04:21,200 --> 02:04:24,520
Speaker 2: of here. I'm not putting my future on the line.

2140
02:04:24,640 --> 02:04:27,000
Speaker 2: I can make money in an extra year of eligibility.

2141
02:04:27,520 --> 02:04:30,000
Speaker 2: I'm in a red shirt. I want out, and they'll

2142
02:04:30,080 --> 02:04:33,200
Speaker 2: enter the portal. They can't switch teams this season, but

2143
02:04:33,240 --> 02:04:35,880
Speaker 2: they can actually enter the portal now and essentially stop

2144
02:04:35,920 --> 02:04:39,960
Speaker 2: playing and claim a red shirt if they haven't claimed

2145
02:04:39,960 --> 02:04:43,480
Speaker 2: a red shirt already. And that is the sort of

2146
02:04:43,640 --> 02:04:47,760
Speaker 2: quitting issue that I think both Clemson and Florida have

2147
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Speaker 2: to be on the lookout for, and I think that's

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Speaker 2: going to be an underrated story to follow as the

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Speaker 2: week goes on.

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Speaker 3: All right, so.

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Speaker 2: There's my little college football update with my little personal touch. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it was raining the whole time, and that you know,

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Speaker 2: it's a it's here's the best part.

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Speaker 1: It poured for three hours straight.

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Speaker 2: And sixty five thousand people still showed up at hard Rock.

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Speaker 2: So for those of you who think the University of

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Speaker 2: Miami are fair weather fans, the weather wasn't very fair

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Speaker 2: and we showed up anyway. So with that, I will

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Speaker 2: see in about forty eight hours and so we upload again.