Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser. Every day
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Speaker 1: Global News. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week on this Tuesday.
Speaker 1: I'm Carol Masser. So we talked about New York City's
Speaker 1: covin I team positive test rate over seven day periods
Speaker 1: staying below a threshold that would trigger shutdown of schools.
Speaker 1: That's good. We did see groups representing you as doctors, nurses,
Speaker 1: and hospitals urging President Trump to share information about the
Speaker 1: administration's coronavirus response with President like Joe Biden and his
Speaker 1: transition team. We had Germany warning and glamrkele that Germany
Speaker 1: remains very serious, but there is some optimism that an
Speaker 1: economic recovery will gather pace once the pandemic is brought
Speaker 1: under control. There's a lot going on global cases. My meantime,
Speaker 1: they're topping fifty fine point one million when it comes
Speaker 1: to COVID nineteen deaths one three million. Back with us
Speaker 1: for our daily virus update. Dr David Levy, the CEO
Speaker 1: of the healthcare company E h E Health, and he
Speaker 1: joins us on the phone in New York City. Dr. Leaving,
Speaker 1: Nice to have you back with us. How are things going,
Speaker 1: What are you seeing when it comes to the virus.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Carol's great to be back. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: we basically have around the rest of the country and
Speaker 1: explosion of cases, and they're creeping up in New York.
Speaker 1: We have some great silver linings on their horizon with
Speaker 1: respect to both vaccines and the advent of antibody treatment
Speaker 1: monoclonal antibody treatment. But in the meantime, from now until
Speaker 1: the end of the holidays in December, we've got to
Speaker 1: keep focused on what I call public health one oh
Speaker 1: one masks, social distancing testing, positive contact tracing, and positive
Speaker 1: people quarantine. It's as basic and as simple as that,
Speaker 1: and it's the thing that's right at our hands to
Speaker 1: be able to do with actively. Yeah, I mean, listen,
Speaker 1: you know, we all know what it is, right, social
Speaker 1: distancing and wearing masks. It gets tougher. Though. I think
Speaker 1: it's fair to say that once everybody has to be inside,
Speaker 1: you can't be outside like you were maybe over the summer. Correct.
Speaker 1: And I also do think that there's something now that
Speaker 1: we're what eight months into this, there's pandemic fatigue, and
Speaker 1: I think there are people who who you know, left brain,
Speaker 1: right brain. I understand this is what we need to do,
Speaker 1: but I'm exhausted. I'm tired of this. Yeah, so we're
Speaker 1: all exhausted. You know. We see it at our own company,
Speaker 1: we see it at our clients companies, we see it everywhere.
Speaker 1: And all I can tell you it's a leadership to
Speaker 1: get out there and to keep on pushing people to
Speaker 1: the finish line, pushing them to the finish line. We
Speaker 1: will get to the end of this. I am confident
Speaker 1: of that this is going to start looking much much
Speaker 1: better with the turn of the year, and we just
Speaker 1: have to keep on strong right up to the end.
Speaker 1: And there's there's no other answer for it. Frankly, at
Speaker 1: the moment, well, And it's interesting that you say that too,
Speaker 1: um at a time when I just read a headline
Speaker 1: kind of leading into you out doctors, nurses, hospitals urging
Speaker 1: the current administration to share information about the White House's
Speaker 1: coronavirus response with President elect Joe Biden's transition team. How
Speaker 1: do you s someone who understands this virus in the
Speaker 1: medical community, understand the frontline workers who are constantly putting
Speaker 1: their lives at risk and watching these cases that are
Speaker 1: you know, increasing around the country, around the world. How
Speaker 1: important is it that this transition just when it comes
Speaker 1: to COVID nineteen be smart, go well, and that there
Speaker 1: are no laps, right, that we just kind of are
Speaker 1: as seamless as possible. Well, just to give people perspective
Speaker 1: on what we're looking at with respect to the advent
Speaker 1: of vaccines and antibodies, you're talking about two specific treatments
Speaker 1: of vaccine which creates active immunity, which have focused just
Speaker 1: on the vulnerable population. And when we're looking at efficacy,
Speaker 1: you're talking about bringing down the entire lethality of this
Speaker 1: epidemic just probably focusing on the vulnerable population somewhere not
Speaker 1: that much different than generalized influenza, and that's without her immunity.
Speaker 1: It's just focusing on the vulnerable, vulnerable people. The same
Speaker 1: thing with anti the same thing with MONOCOLI anybodies. This
Speaker 1: is an anti viral therapy which has about a seventy
Speaker 1: percent reduction in admission rates for folks who are at risk,
Speaker 1: namely vulnerable populations. That can bring the case fatality, the
Speaker 1: lethality of this epidemic down significantly to be just a
Speaker 1: little bit above uh one and a half times a
Speaker 1: general flu epidemic, or a little bit a little bit higher.
Speaker 1: So the idea of getting these two new therapies, or
Speaker 1: these two new strategies to vulnerable vulnerable populations relates to
Speaker 1: two things. One is obviously supply, then distribution and access.
Speaker 1: And if we don't have all of that seamlessly coordinated,
Speaker 1: we're going to miss an enormous opportunity to significantly drop fatality. That,
Speaker 1: by the way, is without getting into the whole distribution
Speaker 1: of and the ramping up of testing masks and ppe,
Speaker 1: which is basically back to the you know, public health
Speaker 1: one on one issues. But boy, with these two new
Speaker 1: therapies coming down the pike, if we are not seamlessly coordinated,
Speaker 1: we can lose a major opportunity to have some serious impact. Carol.
Speaker 1: If this was a baseball game, where are we in
Speaker 1: terms of innings? Seven? Oh, that's positive. Yeah, well, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm optimistic. I mean, there could be extra innings. So
Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to be funny here, but we're
Speaker 1: going to have a rough seventh and eighth. But uh,
Speaker 1: and I say that to the end of December. But
Speaker 1: I really believe that as these things come online, we're
Speaker 1: going to see really a significant change. And and honestly,
Speaker 1: I don't see how we can start enforcing some of
Speaker 1: this mask ging more seriously across the country as well.
Speaker 1: Should we have a mandate, Should we have a mandate
Speaker 1: come down from from the typical government. There is no
Speaker 1: downside in my view to a mask mandate. I'm in
Speaker 1: I just if this is not rocket science. Uh, this
Speaker 1: has proven you can see the numbers some people project
Speaker 1: perhaps reduction and spread just by wearing masks. This should
Speaker 1: be a no brainer. It's absolutely and this is not
Speaker 1: economic shutdown. It's basically just putting on a mask. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's a patriotic thing to do.
Speaker 1: Quite candidly, Yeah, No, no, No, I get it. It's
Speaker 1: funny too. And we've all had conversations at home at
Speaker 1: work about how it's just become kind of so normal
Speaker 1: for so many of us. And I think if you've
Speaker 1: been in one of these major cities where you've seen
Speaker 1: the impact of it, it's like putting on a seatbelt
Speaker 1: when you get into a car. You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: In New York, it's not an issue. Everybody wears a mask.
Speaker 1: Everybody gets it. And frankly, I think it's because of
Speaker 1: the horrific spring we had and you know, one and
Speaker 1: three and fifty New Yorkers died of COVID. People get that.
Speaker 1: They understand that it was over ten times out of
Speaker 1: nine eleven. So we wear masks, no problem, we get it.
Speaker 1: I just want to talk to you a little bit
Speaker 1: more about COVID nineteen, Dr Lee, because I did feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, you gave us a little bit of a
Speaker 1: timeline and not a little bit you gave us, you know,
Speaker 1: saying we're in the seventh inning. Uh if this was
Speaker 1: a baseball game, but you said the seventh and athennings
Speaker 1: are going to be pretty tough. But the difference between
Speaker 1: now and let's say a few months ago, perhaps are
Speaker 1: at the beginning of this pandemic. Is that the vaccine
Speaker 1: developments that we've made progress, Yeah, for sure, of the
Speaker 1: vaccine as well as the new um anti viral medications
Speaker 1: and monoclonal and polyclonal antibodies, one of which was approved
Speaker 1: last week. So that's been basically a story that hasn't
Speaker 1: been told enough, but it's going to be a very
Speaker 1: significant impact, we believe. Why is that so important in
Speaker 1: addition to the vaccines, Well, um, to have a drug
Speaker 1: that you can give when you're just mildly ill or
Speaker 1: moderately ill. It's kind of like an antibiotic when you
Speaker 1: show up to the bacteria, when you show up to
Speaker 1: the hospital for the bacteria, and the moment you get
Speaker 1: a shot of penicillin and you don't have to get
Speaker 1: admitted to the hospital. Well, this is kind of like
Speaker 1: the same thing. It's in a few an infusion, but
Speaker 1: it really takes down the chance of being admitted with
Speaker 1: the serious illness. And frankly, that's exactly what President Trump
Speaker 1: got from the General and exactly what Governor Christie got
Speaker 1: from the from Lily. So these medications are highly effective
Speaker 1: and when targeted and vulnerable populations can have a very
Speaker 1: significant impact, and you have to do it early. Correct, Yeah, milder,
Speaker 1: moderate symptoms and vulnerable populations. The problem with that strategy
Speaker 1: isn't actually it's effectiveness, it's it's supply and distribution. Uh.
Speaker 1: And we're actually probably going to see in the next
Speaker 1: few weeks and months we'll see infusion centers pop up
Speaker 1: all over the place, right exactly. Well, that that begs
Speaker 1: to that bigger question of the supply chain, whether it's
Speaker 1: the vaccine or whether it's these anti viral treatments, right. Uh,
Speaker 1: these are not things. I know the vaccine makers, the
Speaker 1: big farmer companies, I mean, they certainly have been working
Speaker 1: towards this, they've even started manufacturing it. But this is
Speaker 1: going to be huge, the logistical side of manufacturing it
Speaker 1: and then getting it out, the vaccine or even these
Speaker 1: viral anti viral treatments exactly. And that's back to the
Speaker 1: issue why you need such close coordination between the outgoing
Speaker 1: and the incoming administrations. I Mean, this thing has to
Speaker 1: be seamlessly coordinated, otherwise people will die, no question. All right.
Speaker 1: One thing I did want to ask you too, is
Speaker 1: what are you seeing when it comes to people coming
Speaker 1: in and doing some of those preventive routine treatments. Have
Speaker 1: you seen an increase in people feeling more comfortable about
Speaker 1: coming back to the doctor's office. Yeah, we provide preventive
Speaker 1: health services around the country and what we and for
Speaker 1: for large employers and for their employees and spouses and families,
Speaker 1: and uh, we actually were caught by surprise how engage
Speaker 1: people were once we reopened after the lockdown, because people
Speaker 1: have begun to understand that that much of the co
Speaker 1: more bid conditions affiliated with COVID nineteen can kill you,
Speaker 1: and those are all lifestyle illnesses overweight, high blood pressure,
Speaker 1: diabetes and the like. Getting those things under control have
Speaker 1: meaningful impact in this pandemic, and so we strongly believe
Speaker 1: that that's a great reason to get back in. People
Speaker 1: are figuring out that they're not going to get COVID
Speaker 1: at their local hospital or their well managed doctor's office
Speaker 1: because appropriate precautions are being taken and reducing comorbidities is
Speaker 1: a hugely advantageous thing to do, and it's something that
Speaker 1: everybody can do today without without any big dispute on
Speaker 1: whether there's going to be a good outcome doctor leaving.
Speaker 1: That's a great thing to do. That I just wanted
Speaker 1: because we just only have about forty seconds left here,
Speaker 1: I just want to follow on that. I mean, what
Speaker 1: is one thing that we could change or mandate because
Speaker 1: we do know that, you know, taking care of your health, wellness, weight,
Speaker 1: these are things that really impact your outcome in any
Speaker 1: health situation. How do we change that? How do we
Speaker 1: change the trajectory in the trend line just quickly? Well,
Speaker 1: in the end, I mean, you can force people to
Speaker 1: do what they don't want to do. I think that frankly,
Speaker 1: educating the public about how important lifestyle is UH is
Speaker 1: probably the most important thing. You know, I call it.
Speaker 1: You know, COVID compress this time, your overweight, your diabetic,
Speaker 1: you're hypertensive. You know you may not have tender fifteen
Speaker 1: or twenty years anymore to hang around and wait till
Speaker 1: those things impact your end organs, your organ You know,
Speaker 1: this could hit you right away. So I think the
Speaker 1: most important thing is education and awareness and getting people
Speaker 1: to know and to understand that they can do something
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, it's a big issue, no doubt about it,
Speaker 1: especially when you look at things like the diabetes numbers
Speaker 1: in the United States. Dr Levy, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Nice to check in with you. Dr David Levy, CEO
Speaker 1: of e h E Health Training us on the phone
Speaker 1: in New York City. This is Bloomberg Business Week with
Speaker 1: Carol Messer from Bloomberg Radio. Well, you've watched this company's videos.
Speaker 1: I know I've treated out several. I actually went down
Speaker 1: a rabbit hole today watching them all over again because
Speaker 1: I've watched Spot the Dog running Cheetah wildcast. There's also
Speaker 1: Atlas the Dynamic Humanoid. We're talking about the cutting edge
Speaker 1: of company that puts out those robotic x you know
Speaker 1: who they are. We're talking about Boston Dynamics. They've really
Speaker 1: become part of our pop culture, which is about it
Speaker 1: looks like to enter a next chapter. Sarah McBride writes
Speaker 1: about it for Business Week, venture capital reporter at Bloomberg News,
Speaker 1: and she joins us on the foot in San Francisco
Speaker 1: along with Bloomberg Business wee get to Joe Webber, Joel,
Speaker 1: how much time do you spend watching Boston Dynamics videos?
Speaker 1: They creeping out a little bit, so yes, that's fair.
Speaker 1: And this is a rabbit hole or like a robot hole,
Speaker 1: so so yeah, I mean I think. You know, these
Speaker 1: videos of Boston Dynamics robots have been sort of Internet
Speaker 1: sensation for basically as long as they've been making those robots,
Speaker 1: and they can do some interesting things like climb stairs
Speaker 1: and up and tours heavy things, and you know, and
Speaker 1: you know in Asia you see them during the pandemic
Speaker 1: and they sort of you know, bar constructions that people
Speaker 1: to stay away from each other and that kind of
Speaker 1: stuff that you know. The interesting thing that Sarah brings
Speaker 1: out here is like you know, for all of those
Speaker 1: great Internet videos and everything, like, yeah, there's a there's
Speaker 1: a kind of a lack of a business model underlying it,
Speaker 1: and that's actually led to some turmoil, not only a
Speaker 1: Boston Dynamics and that sort of gets to the heart
Speaker 1: of the story because Boston Dynamics in this whole division
Speaker 1: have actually been up for sale and they might catch
Speaker 1: some big money. Um how much money and who's buying
Speaker 1: so well? Um, Apparently Hyundai Motor Corp. Has been talking
Speaker 1: to Soft Bank about buying Boston Dynamics and that would
Speaker 1: be a price tag of around a billion dollars, I'm told,
Speaker 1: which sounds like a lot for what for many years
Speaker 1: has just been a vanity project. But Boston Dynamics says
Speaker 1: it's getting to the point where it's robots can do
Speaker 1: some pretty practical things. And um Hyundai actually has a
Speaker 1: walking car division. If you thought the Boston Dynamics videos
Speaker 1: were terrifying, way tweet some of the walking car videos.
Speaker 1: And so who knows. I think guy saw that movie.
Speaker 1: It was called Transformers exactly. But it's like, but it's
Speaker 1: amazing too. Like I had my producer, um Ario Gomi,
Speaker 1: he like went online too because we were talking about
Speaker 1: the robots, the robots, the humanoids that we're cheering at
Speaker 1: a baseball game. Yeah, this summer, no human fans were allowed,
Speaker 1: but robots fans were allowed. And Stuffink owns a ton
Speaker 1: of robots companies, not just Boston Dynamics. So they mixed
Speaker 1: up some spot dog robots from Boston Dynamics with some
Speaker 1: of their others and had them cheering on the sidelines,
Speaker 1: wearing baseball caps and singing fan songs, eating hot dogs,
Speaker 1: having a beer. Now not so much, it's really I mean,
Speaker 1: there are practical things that these robots can do. But
Speaker 1: the company says it's next generation of robots which will
Speaker 1: handle logistics and work in warehouses are the one that
Speaker 1: are going to be super practical, and those are called
Speaker 1: handle and do a lot of things which don't sound
Speaker 1: that tough, like taking boxes off of trucks and loading
Speaker 1: them onto palates, but apparently are very complicated for the
Speaker 1: types of machines and factories to do. Now that's where
Speaker 1: they say they'll really shine. So thing ingredients all of
Speaker 1: this sarah um because you know, if if, if it
Speaker 1: seems like there's actually like a potential to you know,
Speaker 1: make money just around the corner, Um, why not stick
Speaker 1: with that? Why? Why why would something look to moad
Speaker 1: this now? Well, stuff think has had so many um
Speaker 1: uh challenges and we had that big cover story last
Speaker 1: year about some of the challenges they've been facing. We
Speaker 1: work has imploded and uh. Then this year with COVID,
Speaker 1: they were just in a position where they were trying
Speaker 1: to raise cash. They sold up a lot of businesses,
Speaker 1: including arm and so this was just one obvious place
Speaker 1: in their portfolio where it had been um sucking money
Speaker 1: out of soft bank. It was costing them over a
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollars a year just to run
Speaker 1: Boston Dynamics. So this was an obvious place to make
Speaker 1: a cut where they could uh worth mentioning there that
Speaker 1: also ye yeah, worth mentioning there that SoftBank isn't the
Speaker 1: only owner of that Boston Dynamics has had before before SoftBank,
Speaker 1: who was it against? Sarah Google the same thing. Google
Speaker 1: was perfectly prepared to have a vanity project and then
Speaker 1: a new CFO came in started kind of putting financial
Speaker 1: controls on different parts of the company. It was part
Speaker 1: of Google X, that part of Google that does super
Speaker 1: cool cutting edge projects, and she just said, nope, we
Speaker 1: need to impose some financial discipline. So they got fuld
Speaker 1: to soft Bank, and that was um complicated and had
Speaker 1: to go through review by the government because Boston Dynamics
Speaker 1: has very cutting edge technology. In fact, the military used
Speaker 1: to pay for a lot of Boston Dynamics projects that
Speaker 1: stopped under Google. And now if it sells again to
Speaker 1: another non US entity, it would again have to be
Speaker 1: reviewed by the government. So it's a complicated deal. So
Speaker 1: one thing I want to ask you, I mean, this
Speaker 1: is a company that's been around for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1: I mean, and it does sell stuff, it does sell robots,
Speaker 1: but can it be a really successful company? Uh? You know,
Speaker 1: And and and really become something. And almost I think
Speaker 1: you end the story saying that, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: an opportunity for them to kind of become the Google
Speaker 1: of the robotics industry, or somebody has talked about it.
Speaker 1: We really don't have necessarily someone of this ilk out there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: robotics is a fascinating field with hundreds of startups and
Speaker 1: so many people trying to achieve dominance in the field.
Speaker 1: And um, they had owners who were content to let
Speaker 1: them just spend hundreds of millions of dollars researching the
Speaker 1: best types of robots. So arguably they are now in
Speaker 1: this very unusual position because they had owners who for
Speaker 1: a while didn't really care about how much money they
Speaker 1: were spending bankrolling Boston Dynamics. But the company was profitable
Speaker 1: in the past before Google bought it, and it was
Speaker 1: doing more defense military work, and it says it can
Speaker 1: be profitable again, and they certainly have the technological chops,
Speaker 1: so it could be a really interesting new chapter in
Speaker 1: their life. And I mean, Joe, you've got to get
Speaker 1: I think you've got get one of these dogs. I'm
Speaker 1: just saying already, doctor, I think they wrote expensive No, No,
Speaker 1: you may not a robotic cat that sounds even creepier
Speaker 1: than a real cat. Um uh, you know. The the
Speaker 1: the The other thing that I'll just point out in
Speaker 1: all of this is that there are other robotics companies
Speaker 1: that I find really interesting, like for Nuke is one
Speaker 1: in Jaman um does really like heavy equipment and stuff.
Speaker 1: So I actually think strategically for Hondai, this is sort
Speaker 1: of a way of picking up a piece that, um,
Speaker 1: you know, if it's on the brink of having some
Speaker 1: breakthrough products, it could become sort of a crown jewel
Speaker 1: in the Hondai portfolio. It's a really great point and
Speaker 1: a great story, um, and I highly recommend everyone check
Speaker 1: it out at Bloomberg dot com. Sarah McBride, thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Venture Capital reporter of Bloomberg News on the
Speaker 1: phone in San Francisco. Jill Webber, editor of Bloomberg Business Week,
Speaker 1: on the remote access from Brooklyn. This is Bloomberg Business
Speaker 1: Week with kirol Master on Bloomberg Radio. So in an
Speaker 1: upcoming edition of Bloomberg Business Week talks that we featured
Speaker 1: in the magazine, we're gonna talk to one of this
Speaker 1: year's successful I p O s, which is up more
Speaker 1: than a hundred since its debut as an a d
Speaker 1: R in the New York Stock Exchange in September. It's
Speaker 1: the company that has patented a synthetic version of the
Speaker 1: active ingredient in so called magic mushrooms for use in
Speaker 1: treatment resistant depression. We're delighted to welcome to Boomberg Radio
Speaker 1: Compass Pathways chairman, CEO and co founder George Goldsmith, who
Speaker 1: joins us on the phone overseas in Europe. Georgie, it
Speaker 1: is so great to have you here with us. We've
Speaker 1: been talking about your company since it was featured in
Speaker 1: Business Week magazine. How are you. I'm doing well, Carol,
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for having me on. Well,
Speaker 1: it's great. It's great to have you here, and what
Speaker 1: a year it's been, and what a year Togo public. Um.
Speaker 1: First of all, tell us a little bit about your
Speaker 1: company and how you came across this, because I do
Speaker 1: understand it's a pretty personal story. Um. Yes, it is
Speaker 1: a personal story, and I think that in many ways,
Speaker 1: so many interesting companies do form that way, and so
Speaker 1: from our point of view, we had our son really
Speaker 1: struggled with mental health issues when he went to university,
Speaker 1: Like far too many young people do. We thought, how
Speaker 1: hard could this be, you know, their good treatments and therapies.
Speaker 1: Yet the more he encountered, the more difficult it was
Speaker 1: for him to be recognizable to us with the side effects,
Speaker 1: and it didn't really help him. So we then started
Speaker 1: talking to lots of different people doing our own research.
Speaker 1: My co founder in life he cuttering amount of dis
Speaker 1: guy as a doctor, and and in her own researchers
Speaker 1: she stumbled across psilocybin and philocybin research and we became
Speaker 1: really intrigued by this um. The other thing that happened
Speaker 1: simultaneously is the more people we talked about our own
Speaker 1: challenges that we were facing, the more we heard from
Speaker 1: others about their challenges. And these would be long term
Speaker 1: friends who we've known for quite a while that they
Speaker 1: never felt comfortable sharing their own challenges until we did.
Speaker 1: And that really led us to to understand that almost
Speaker 1: everybody has a story of you know how the current
Speaker 1: system isn't quite helping enough people well enough, and that
Speaker 1: really inspired us to look at this research. We solves
Speaker 1: promise and and the issues, how do we bring it
Speaker 1: to patients, not just bring it into the next journal
Speaker 1: article and journal articles are critically important, but they're necessary
Speaker 1: but not sufficient to bring this to patients, and that's
Speaker 1: really our academic well, and I do you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: I was doing some reading on this and that my
Speaker 1: understanding is for those, you know, patients and individuals who
Speaker 1: deal with and and suffer depression, that they're the existing
Speaker 1: treatments only really work for about seventy patients, leaving as
Speaker 1: many as ninety millions still struggling around the world. I
Speaker 1: think that's some world health organization. So it is a
Speaker 1: huge and I hate to put it in business terms,
Speaker 1: but we are Bloomberg. It's a huge market. It is
Speaker 1: give meat markets of suffering, forgive me in that sense.
Speaker 1: And so there's a tremendous amount of suffering and I
Speaker 1: think we've been pretty good at developing tools to ameliorate
Speaker 1: sent of that, but is quite quite difficult because what
Speaker 1: happens is with each new treatment, those people actually have
Speaker 1: less and less likely to be helped by what's next.
Speaker 1: So there's been a very large studies in the US
Speaker 1: by the National SUDA Mental Health, and we really have
Speaker 1: documentation for that. So if we have the opportunity to
Speaker 1: do something unique here, which is a well dose. So
Speaker 1: what we do is we provide a very high dose
Speaker 1: of suicide in a carefully controlled setting under supervision by
Speaker 1: especially trained therapists. So this isn't anything that anyone would
Speaker 1: do at home and um patients listen to a special
Speaker 1: soundtrack and they're really supported through this process. And what
Speaker 1: happens is that afterwards, for many patients they experience an
Speaker 1: immediate reduction and depression that actually lasts for quite a while.
Speaker 1: And what are research really looking at is well, who
Speaker 1: benefits not everyone, so who doesn't? And what separates the
Speaker 1: people who benefit for a few weeks from the single
Speaker 1: dose for a few months of people who actually have
Speaker 1: even longer experiences. So we've went to the FDA and
Speaker 1: actually we're operating now in ten countries doing clinical research
Speaker 1: twenty one research sites, and we're really looking at how
Speaker 1: do we do the real deep research to generate the
Speaker 1: information and insight we need to go to what's the
Speaker 1: next phase for us, which would be phase three trials
Speaker 1: and we'll be putting out on our Phase two trials
Speaker 1: about a year from now. So we've been really excited
Speaker 1: about the progress. And I should say that the FDA
Speaker 1: has named your experimental treatment quote a breakthrough therapy, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, really wonderful to kind of get that acknowledgement,
Speaker 1: but it also means now you've got to do more rigorous,
Speaker 1: more risk adverse testing. It's a lot of pressure, I'm assuming,
Speaker 1: and you've got to make sure you're working with the
Speaker 1: right scientists, the best scientists, the best clinical trials correct well,
Speaker 1: absolutely and absolutely and then even more so right because
Speaker 1: obviously there's a history here um as what we're looking
Speaker 1: to do is the highest quality, rigorous, most rigorous research.
Speaker 1: The first support of Call for us was actually even
Speaker 1: before we formed the company, to speak with regulators players
Speaker 1: just to understand what did they think about this and
Speaker 1: what we were really struck by in all the conversations,
Speaker 1: and the breakthrough therapy designation is I think a perfect
Speaker 1: example of this. The problem is so big, and that's
Speaker 1: what you said, you know, there's such a huge amount
Speaker 1: of suffering here. The tools we have are good for some,
Speaker 1: but not enough. They saw that this is the promising
Speaker 1: So what we found is that a huge amount of support,
Speaker 1: but we really have to get this right. We have
Speaker 1: to get it right for patients, for their families and
Speaker 1: society just got about a minute, and then I've got
Speaker 1: to do some news and then we'll come back. But
Speaker 1: how big of a market opportunity do you think is
Speaker 1: there for compass pathways? Just quickly, well, I think that
Speaker 1: what we see in this is not obviously about ninety
Speaker 1: million people suffering from so called treatment resistent depression. But
Speaker 1: to be clear, this isn't people who is not a
Speaker 1: group of people who are resisting treatment. This is a
Speaker 1: group of people for whom are treatment stoke work. And
Speaker 1: so perhaps you know, I think this is really really important,
Speaker 1: but that's just the start, because really what we're looking
Speaker 1: at is working on areas of mental health where people
Speaker 1: get caught in patterns of negative thinking or patterns of
Speaker 1: obsessive thinking that happens in other areas like anxiety or
Speaker 1: O c D or other things. And we're really curious
Speaker 1: about how could this mechanism of a high dose of
Speaker 1: psilocybin therapy yield benefit for other classes of people who
Speaker 1: aren't helped enough. So is this like a potentially a
Speaker 1: multibillion dollar drug potential Just quickly, just got about fifteen
Speaker 1: seconds here. Um, well, I think that it is potential
Speaker 1: to have it be a therapy it's really important that
Speaker 1: it's not a drug. It's drugs. It's given in cons
Speaker 1: combination with psychological support, and that's the critical pick. Hey.
Speaker 1: So before I move on, though, you did say and
Speaker 1: I thought this was a really important distinction, George, as
Speaker 1: you said, it's not a drug, it's a potential therapy.
Speaker 1: Having said that, I do think you know our listeners
Speaker 1: are curious, UM about how big that market size might
Speaker 1: be anxiety disorders, to press it, the depression treatment market,
Speaker 1: it's expected to be something like So what's your expectation
Speaker 1: or thoughts on this. So a few things. One is
Speaker 1: I appreciate your digging into this. So just to give
Speaker 1: you some and your listeners some perspective. Depression is the
Speaker 1: leading cause of disability worldwide, just depression, UM, and in
Speaker 1: the US, the annual cost of depression is forecast to
Speaker 1: be about two hundred billion per year and a large
Speaker 1: number of out is direct costs of outpatients in patient
Speaker 1: medical services, pharmaceutical services, and the number you've referred to
Speaker 1: is largely in the pharmaceutical space. Now, what we know
Speaker 1: is that about a third of patients, as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: simply aren't helped and the third of patients that aren't
Speaker 1: helped actually are about three or four times more expensive
Speaker 1: two or three depends on the kind of where where
Speaker 1: you're doing the data. UM. Then patients who are helped
Speaker 1: by these medicines UM And so we have not only
Speaker 1: a very large group of patients who aren't helped, but
Speaker 1: also those are the most expensive patients. And so if
Speaker 1: we could make a difference in their lives, I think
Speaker 1: there's a huge opportunity to really um develop a new
Speaker 1: model of care for them. And this is what's so
Speaker 1: interesting about what we're doing. It is a therapy, right,
Speaker 1: It's a single dose under supervised circumstances, with preparation and
Speaker 1: then some follow up afterwards. And what's really unique about this.
Speaker 1: So they did some really fascinating work at Johns Hopkins
Speaker 1: where a lot of this research was reborn in the
Speaker 1: over ten years ago. One of the questions they asked
Speaker 1: patients who going through this, and they asked this question
Speaker 1: six weeks after this experience, They said, how meaningful would
Speaker 1: you say this experience was in your life? Personally meaningful?
Speaker 1: And people were given, you know, sort the most meaningful
Speaker 1: of the top five, you know, and so over seventy
Speaker 1: the single experience was one of the top five most
Speaker 1: meaningful experiences of their life. Right, So you can't you
Speaker 1: can't really put you can't you can't write no, no, no.
Speaker 1: And I wish you we were in person because you
Speaker 1: can see me smiling, because you can't put a value
Speaker 1: on it. And I have a sister who works in
Speaker 1: this area, so I've kind of grown up learning about this,
Speaker 1: and I agree that there's an unbelievable cost by not,
Speaker 1: you know, helping out this sector of our population. And
Speaker 1: also it's invaluable in terms of they basically get their
Speaker 1: lives back. Having said that, you kind of evaded my answer.
Speaker 1: So it was this like a multibillion dollar potential treatment
Speaker 1: or tens of Yes, so I think it is multi
Speaker 1: billion ye, And you know we've had so But again
Speaker 1: that's if the trials work. Well, what's let's let's talk
Speaker 1: about that, because that's a big deal. I mean, listen,
Speaker 1: we're all learning about the drug process, right because of
Speaker 1: the drug approval process, because of COVID. What challenges does
Speaker 1: does the US present, What regulatory hurdles still remain? And
Speaker 1: I do wonder if you're following kind of the playbook
Speaker 1: from marijuana kind of prescription first. Recreational second, how are
Speaker 1: you thinking about it? Not at all. Now, We're really
Speaker 1: thinking about the huge unmet needs there is for patients, uh,
Speaker 1: and that's you know, what we're really focused on is access,
Speaker 1: and that means approval by medicaid, by you know, insurers.
Speaker 1: So from day one, we've been really focusing on making
Speaker 1: sure that if this in fact is successful in trials,
Speaker 1: people have access to it, and that means working with
Speaker 1: insurers even in the design of clinical trials to make
Speaker 1: sure they have the evidence. Hey, this for this patient popuation.
Speaker 1: So that's super important to us. It's a different model
Speaker 1: than a recreational model. You're gonna have to come back
Speaker 1: because I want to talk more. We still have a
Speaker 1: few minutes, but I just want to squeeze in some things.
Speaker 1: When when did you recognize the potential in this space?
Speaker 1: Was it after your son or was it when you
Speaker 1: started doing some digging, Like what was the thing that
Speaker 1: you just said kind of the aha moment? Well, the
Speaker 1: aha moment was being awakened in February by coach and
Speaker 1: my wife who was busy doing medical research and her
Speaker 1: sleepless night as a doctor, and she said, I came
Speaker 1: across this thing called philocybin um. It's the active ingredient
Speaker 1: magic mushrooms you can wear in the sixties and seventies.
Speaker 1: What do you think of that? So say, what, honey,
Speaker 1: finding this And you know, obviously I grown up in
Speaker 1: that time, so I was familiar with these things, but
Speaker 1: it was just a whole world that I had completely
Speaker 1: forgotten about from that time. So listen, just got about
Speaker 1: forty five seconds left here. Why synthetic um psilocybin in
Speaker 1: And I'm just curious how you produce it? And just
Speaker 1: quickly yeah, sorry, we need to It's a medicine, so
Speaker 1: we need to know exactly what patients are receiving, what
Speaker 1: the doses. It has to be the same quality every
Speaker 1: place on the planet that it's given. So that's why
Speaker 1: you have to use synthetic. It's the regulatory path forward.
Speaker 1: It's one where we always know there are no impurities,
Speaker 1: that people get exactly what it says on the tent,
Speaker 1: and then we can do controlled research. So it's super
Speaker 1: important that in a medical setting we use synthesize pilotype
Speaker 1: and that's something that we've spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: developing and working with the regulators on both sides of
Speaker 1: the Atlantic, to make sure it's the highest purity and
Speaker 1: genuinely a medicine with evidence. Well, just then the difference
Speaker 1: between a drug and and a medicine is evidence. And
Speaker 1: so we're creating a medicine from this which is philocide
Speaker 1: and our proprietary form of right. And then with the
Speaker 1: evidence that works. Got it, George, we have to go.
Speaker 1: Please come back. I'd love to learn more, George old Smith,
Speaker 1: and also listen to more of the trial, the trials George,
Speaker 1: of course of compass pathways ro Marco journal. Now, but
Speaker 1: you let me drive. No, no, no no home, honey, please,
Speaker 1: I'll do the right drivel. I want to drive, just drive.
Speaker 1: It's the questions trying. This is the drive to the globe.
Speaker 1: Give me thanks, We'll try us down on Bluebird Radio.
Speaker 1: It is time for the drive to the clothes on
Speaker 1: this Tuesday, back with us as annimal Letty, head of
Speaker 1: active Equity at Wells Fargo Asset Management. They've got roughly
Speaker 1: six hundred seven billion dollars in assets under management, and
Speaker 1: is back with us on the phone from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Hey, An,
Speaker 1: good to have you here with us. Um, how's it
Speaker 1: going and getting cold? Carol darn winter, I know, right,
Speaker 1: how did that happen? It's kind of dark almost already
Speaker 1: here in New York. How are you guys doing though, Uh?
Speaker 1: With the virus? I know at Midwestern and parts of
Speaker 1: the country, it's been pretty tough. It has been a
Speaker 1: little bit tougher here. Clearly the weather changing has had
Speaker 1: an impact, but so far most of us are staying
Speaker 1: strong and healthy and we're trying to do that the
Speaker 1: best we can with its cold weather. Well, I'm glad
Speaker 1: to hear that that you guys are doing okay. Um.
Speaker 1: Having said that, I do wonder if at all your
Speaker 1: market outlook, your market sentiment has changed at all, Considering
Speaker 1: here we are in the last week and a half,
Speaker 1: we've had a big development from Fiser, a big development
Speaker 1: from Maderna, and um, my last guest at the top
Speaker 1: of our show, UH talked about the medical world and
Speaker 1: saying that we're kind of in the maybe seventh inning
Speaker 1: when it comes to the virus, but the seventh and
Speaker 1: eighth innings they're going to be really rough. UM. I
Speaker 1: just wonder how all of this may be impacts your
Speaker 1: visibility when it comes to investing. Yeah, it's a really
Speaker 1: good question, because I do think we've we've gotten some
Speaker 1: of the best news we could have gotten all year
Speaker 1: with the fisor FISER and Maderna news. But we do
Speaker 1: have this little bit of time now where we're waiting
Speaker 1: for the vaccine, and so it does feel like there's
Speaker 1: a chance that we could have an air pocket in
Speaker 1: the both in the economy and in the market as
Speaker 1: we're waiting for the vaccines to get distributed. And you know,
Speaker 1: we do see that more UM states are starting the
Speaker 1: shutdowns again. We have businesses clothing again, and so that
Speaker 1: has a real impact and certainly more people getting sick UM.
Speaker 1: I think we're going to see the effects of that
Speaker 1: play out into the market. But as we both know,
Speaker 1: the market is focused on the long term and on
Speaker 1: the recovery, and we have seen a pretty sharp workcovery
Speaker 1: so far. And you know, if you get the vaccine
Speaker 1: out in masses by spring, that recovery can really continue.
Speaker 1: And I think the economy is going to be in
Speaker 1: really good shape and certainly will have easy comparisons. And
Speaker 1: that's why I think you see the majority of strength
Speaker 1: Well yeah, right, I mean, to some extent, we start
Speaker 1: to have a little bit of visibility. So at this point,
Speaker 1: you know, we've talked a lot about market rotation, We've
Speaker 1: talked about the value names again, I mean, are those
Speaker 1: parts of the market that you're interested in looking at
Speaker 1: think investors should be considering. Certainly, our managers were paying
Speaker 1: close attention to the cyclical of recovery very early on,
Speaker 1: and as you said, Carol, we've seen some of that
Speaker 1: play out. We saw the gap between growth and value,
Speaker 1: you know, a historic gap start to narrow, and now
Speaker 1: I think we're on more of a level playing field. Certainly,
Speaker 1: technology is trading at a premium, but it's demanding that
Speaker 1: premium because it's providing growth in a world that where
Speaker 1: growth is still scarce, but value and thick local docs
Speaker 1: there still is. There still are a lot of attractive
Speaker 1: names there. But you have to be choosy. And the
Speaker 1: reason why I say that is you want to avoid
Speaker 1: companies that have weak balance sheets. Um certainly companies that
Speaker 1: are not well competitively positioned, because the economy is rapidly
Speaker 1: changing and we're seeing that through this pandemic. The economy
Speaker 1: has shifted more to digitalization and almost in every aspect
Speaker 1: in our lives, even within manufacturing, and so companies need
Speaker 1: to be able to invest in the future and to
Speaker 1: stay alive, quite honestly, and remain competitive. And so that's
Speaker 1: really what our managers are focused on. There's an intense
Speaker 1: boos once sheet on cash flows, and management are capable
Speaker 1: of leaving their companies. You know what's interesting to Anne
Speaker 1: and I think about this. I've thought about this a lot.
Speaker 1: You know, after the financial crisis, that there was a
Speaker 1: point where you looked at a city group at a
Speaker 1: dollar a share and you knew, okay, especially after we
Speaker 1: got through what happened to Lehman and we saw other companies,
Speaker 1: we saw at some point that no matter what the government,
Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve like, there were going to be a
Speaker 1: safety net to protect these companies, right because we couldn't
Speaker 1: let everything come undone. And I do feel like there's
Speaker 1: it's not the same. It's not apples to apples, this
Speaker 1: isn't a financial crisis. But nonetheless, at some point, you know,
Speaker 1: we see it with central banks, global central banks, we
Speaker 1: see it with the US Central Bank, we see it
Speaker 1: even with policymakers, and we'll see if we get another
Speaker 1: round of stimulus. But there is some understanding that we
Speaker 1: can't let everything come undone on Main Street or Wall Street. Right,
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right about that. I think we all know
Speaker 1: the airlines can't all go bankrupt. We can't have every
Speaker 1: industry at you know, certain parts of every industry at risk.
Speaker 1: And there certainly are you know, restaurants, hotels, that travel
Speaker 1: and leisure sector that really hasn't been able to come
Speaker 1: back in any strong way. Um certainly has been challenged.
Speaker 1: And so I think you'll see some stimulus go towards
Speaker 1: those businesses and certainly hopefully to the small businesses that
Speaker 1: really has had to bear the brunt of this pandemic.
Speaker 1: So where don't you want to be right now? Where
Speaker 1: would you just say, Hey, you're sitting now down with
Speaker 1: your best friends, You're having a glass of wine, and
Speaker 1: you're saying, I don't even think about it. I think
Speaker 1: the areas that a lot of our managers are underweight
Speaker 1: the index and you could be having a glass of water.
Speaker 1: You don't have to drink, you don't have to have alcohol.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna put that out there. Forgive me. I
Speaker 1: think people think I'm a whine Oh I'm not. I
Speaker 1: think all of us, probably you know, diffen a little bit.
Speaker 1: It's been rough. You know, I would say that, you know,
Speaker 1: our managers have been underweight energy and um, I know
Speaker 1: that's a relatively small um part of the benchmarks now,
Speaker 1: but it has been an industry that has been challenged. Um,
Speaker 1: you know for a lot of different reasons. Stiller worst
Speaker 1: performing group this year. Down, it's just been slammed. Yes,
Speaker 1: although you know you've seen this strong resurgence of the
Speaker 1: last couple of weeks, right, so you know you might
Speaker 1: miss out on on some of these surges, on these
Speaker 1: mild memorillies. And then we have been our managers across
Speaker 1: the board have also been underweight banks because of the
Speaker 1: interest rate pressures that will likely continue. And Miletti always
Speaker 1: good to hear your voice, take care of stay safe.
Speaker 1: And Milletti, head of Active Equity Wells Fargo Asset Management,
Speaker 1: on the phone from Milwaukee. They've got about six hundred
Speaker 1: seven billion in assets under management. Thanks so much for
Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Download the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud,
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