WEBVTT - Is Merit Real? 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.356 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:22.396 --> 0:00:25.396 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:31.556 --> 0:00:34.316 I'm Noah Felton. Welcome to the first episode of our show. 0:00:35.116 --> 0:00:37.276 Before we kick off the season, I wanted to share 0:00:37.316 --> 0:00:40.396 a little bit about myself. I teach constitutional law at 0:00:40.396 --> 0:00:43.916 Harvard and I write a column for Bloomberg Opinion. I 0:00:44.076 --> 0:00:46.756 really wanted to do this show because I love going 0:00:46.756 --> 0:00:49.196 to the deepest part of any subject to try to 0:00:49.196 --> 0:00:52.276 figure out what's really happening underneath the news stories that 0:00:52.316 --> 0:00:55.236 we read about every day. It's not always easy, and 0:00:55.316 --> 0:00:59.676 it does take time, but it's also very satisfying. I 0:00:59.716 --> 0:01:02.116 hope the conversation we're going to have now and the 0:01:02.156 --> 0:01:04.276 ones that we'll have in the future will give you 0:01:04.316 --> 0:01:07.516 the same sense of satisfaction. I want these to be 0:01:07.636 --> 0:01:10.196 useful to you to help you figure out something really 0:01:10.236 --> 0:01:13.316 new that gives you a different perspective on the issues 0:01:13.356 --> 0:01:16.476 and the debates that are out there, whether it's politics, 0:01:16.596 --> 0:01:19.676 criminal justice reform, or even some of the really sensational 0:01:19.716 --> 0:01:22.556 stories in the news, like our first topic, the college 0:01:22.556 --> 0:01:26.276 admissions scandal. After dozens of wealthy parents were indicted for 0:01:26.396 --> 0:01:29.796 bribing college admissions officials to get their kids into highly 0:01:29.836 --> 0:01:35.316 competitive universities. I could not stop thinking about the story. First, 0:01:35.676 --> 0:01:39.156 as someone who lives and breathes academia myself, I was 0:01:39.276 --> 0:01:42.956 amazed that such an elaborate scheme could exist and be 0:01:42.996 --> 0:01:46.476 as successful as it was, given how heavily structured and 0:01:46.556 --> 0:01:51.196 bureaucratic college admissions usually is. Yet someone was able to 0:01:51.236 --> 0:01:55.556 corrupt the system systematically. I also wondered about the officials 0:01:55.596 --> 0:01:58.996 who are responsible for sorting through the thousands of applications 0:01:59.236 --> 0:02:02.556 and making judgment calls about each candidate at elite schools. 0:02:03.076 --> 0:02:05.556 How do they make sense of the scandal and its fallout? 0:02:06.676 --> 0:02:09.516 More importantly, when you're dealing with that many people trying 0:02:09.516 --> 0:02:12.076 to get into your school, what is the best approach 0:02:12.156 --> 0:02:14.836 to make sure that those who deserve a spot actually 0:02:14.836 --> 0:02:18.796 get one. Today, we're extremely fortunate to have with us 0:02:19.036 --> 0:02:22.596 Asha Rangapa. Asha has been the Dean of Admissions at 0:02:22.636 --> 0:02:24.556 the Yale Law School, not only one of the finest 0:02:24.596 --> 0:02:27.516 law schools in the country, maybe the finest law school, 0:02:27.836 --> 0:02:30.836 but maybe not by coincidence, the one that Asha happened 0:02:30.836 --> 0:02:32.396 to have gone to and that I happened to have 0:02:32.476 --> 0:02:35.116 gone to. She teaches at the Jackson Institute for Global 0:02:35.156 --> 0:02:38.316 Affairs at Yale. She's been a lawyer, a Fulbright scholar, 0:02:38.556 --> 0:02:42.836 and most unusually an FBI special agent. I'm pretty sure 0:02:42.876 --> 0:02:45.316 that makes Asha the only person in the world who's 0:02:45.316 --> 0:02:47.716 both been the dean of admissions at a major university 0:02:47.876 --> 0:02:52.156 and also simultaneously someone who investigates crimes. Asha, thank you 0:02:52.236 --> 0:02:55.396 so much for joining us. Thank you for having me Asha. 0:02:55.396 --> 0:02:58.796 I want to start with the background to this scandal 0:02:59.156 --> 0:03:02.676 that everyone's been talking about, run roughly by a ringleader 0:03:02.716 --> 0:03:06.356 called William Singer, who helped people both cheat on the 0:03:06.476 --> 0:03:12.876 SACT tests and also, at a more profound level of cheating, 0:03:13.196 --> 0:03:16.236 enabled students to appear to be varc athletes when they weren't, 0:03:16.236 --> 0:03:20.756 and did this in connection with various admissions officers. And 0:03:20.796 --> 0:03:23.596 I want to start by asking you about the testing 0:03:23.756 --> 0:03:31.556 side of this case. How did Singer pull off cheating 0:03:32.076 --> 0:03:37.956 in this highly regulated area of testing. Well, it appeared 0:03:37.996 --> 0:03:43.636 that he had effectively bribed proctors who administer the SAT 0:03:44.556 --> 0:03:49.476 and then also arranged with parents to I think in 0:03:49.516 --> 0:03:52.476 some cases, if not all, be able to get certain 0:03:52.516 --> 0:03:57.556 accommodations to be able to take the test alone in 0:03:57.596 --> 0:04:02.796 a room, after which the proctor would then correct the 0:04:03.036 --> 0:04:05.916 exam and put in the right answer. I mean, it's 0:04:05.996 --> 0:04:09.876 very astonishing. So as a result, today, when an admissions 0:04:09.916 --> 0:04:12.916 officer college or a law school is looking at an application, 0:04:13.396 --> 0:04:16.076 typically there won't be any notation of whether the person 0:04:16.156 --> 0:04:18.516 had extra time at all. And maybe that's good from 0:04:18.516 --> 0:04:20.996 the standpoint of fairness from the standpoint of people who 0:04:20.996 --> 0:04:23.636 are genuinely disabled, but it might not be good from 0:04:23.676 --> 0:04:25.316 the standpoint of people who are able to gain the 0:04:25.356 --> 0:04:29.716 system and gain extra time. That's right, you know, And 0:04:29.756 --> 0:04:32.956 I think that this is just a side again that 0:04:33.076 --> 0:04:36.396 I know sort of secondhand because it's it's administered through 0:04:36.396 --> 0:04:41.876 these testing services. But you know, I think it's probably 0:04:42.076 --> 0:04:44.636 fairly rare to be able to gain the system, just 0:04:44.756 --> 0:04:48.356 because I think typically these testing services are reluctant we 0:04:48.676 --> 0:04:51.436 begin with, I mean, grants these accommodations. I would have 0:04:51.436 --> 0:04:55.076 thought exactly the same thing Asha until I read about 0:04:55.116 --> 0:04:57.316 this scandal. I Mean, one of the fascinating things about 0:04:57.356 --> 0:05:00.156 the scandal is that the person who ran it seemed 0:05:00.196 --> 0:05:02.396 to think the easiest part he actually outsourced this part 0:05:02.596 --> 0:05:04.396 to the parents. You know, he held their hands, he 0:05:04.396 --> 0:05:06.156 held the kids hands, he wrote applications. But when he 0:05:06.156 --> 0:05:08.476 came to getting the accommodations, he just said, go to 0:05:08.516 --> 0:05:11.956 your doctor and get an accommodation. And it seems like 0:05:11.996 --> 0:05:13.796 all of these people whose kids then cheated on the 0:05:13.916 --> 0:05:16.756 SAT or the ACT did get accommodation. So it may 0:05:16.796 --> 0:05:18.836 be the depending on the doctor. It's not that hard. 0:05:19.076 --> 0:05:20.836 And it sounds as though, I mean, I'm not an 0:05:20.876 --> 0:05:22.636 expert on this at all, but it sounds as though 0:05:22.996 --> 0:05:28.396 the testing services accepted a doctor's note, which why shouldn't they, right, Yeah, 0:05:28.396 --> 0:05:32.996 you know, you keep what's interesting here is that you know, 0:05:33.116 --> 0:05:36.596 each at each stage of evaluation, you're really defer. You're 0:05:36.676 --> 0:05:43.036 you're relying on the integrity of the process that is 0:05:43.036 --> 0:05:46.796 providing you with the documentation. So the admissions dean is 0:05:46.796 --> 0:05:48.836 going to rely on the test and that the test 0:05:48.956 --> 0:05:52.916 was administered fairly and under you know, circumstances that are 0:05:52.956 --> 0:05:56.516 relatively equal to all the people taking them. The testing 0:05:56.516 --> 0:05:58.956 services are relying on the fact that when they get 0:05:58.996 --> 0:06:02.436 doctor's notes, that they are doing that objectively and under 0:06:02.516 --> 0:06:06.396 the you know, ethical obligations of their profession to only 0:06:07.116 --> 0:06:11.596 provide diagnoses for people who are actually who warrant them. 0:06:11.876 --> 0:06:14.996 And so we just see this breakdown at every stage 0:06:15.196 --> 0:06:20.116 here in the scandal that really allows for a corruption 0:06:20.796 --> 0:06:26.276 of really kind of this entire framework that everything stands on, 0:06:26.356 --> 0:06:29.556 and it is I think, again, relatively few people. But 0:06:29.636 --> 0:06:32.836 it then, as you note, Noah, just really calls into question, like, 0:06:32.996 --> 0:06:36.916 how what can we trust here? You know, Asha, when 0:06:36.956 --> 0:06:40.236 you were describing that everyone trusts in everyone in the process, 0:06:40.516 --> 0:06:43.316 and then when people start systematically lying, the thing begins 0:06:43.356 --> 0:06:45.516 to fall apart. I was immediately reminded of the mortgage 0:06:45.516 --> 0:06:49.676 backed securities crisis. Yeah, where everyone thought to themselves, well, 0:06:49.916 --> 0:06:52.316 the person who gathers the information on the mortgage application 0:06:52.476 --> 0:06:55.716 must be telling the truth, and then the person who 0:06:55.716 --> 0:06:58.796 then bought them mortgage backed security said well, we're collecting mortgages, 0:06:58.796 --> 0:07:00.876 they're all full of true information. And then when they 0:07:00.876 --> 0:07:03.956 all were false, we were suddenly all underwater. Is this 0:07:04.556 --> 0:07:08.476 that kind of a crisis in your view for admissions generally? 0:07:08.596 --> 0:07:11.356 Is system that capable of being corrupted by the rich? 0:07:11.916 --> 0:07:16.796 I don't think so, Noah. Again. I mean, we'll see 0:07:16.796 --> 0:07:18.796 how many people come out of these indictments, but right 0:07:18.836 --> 0:07:23.116 now it's about fifty people relatively speaking. When we are 0:07:23.196 --> 0:07:26.916 looking at the number of college applicants, I think that 0:07:28.436 --> 0:07:32.836 this one entity which was you know, spread out among 0:07:32.876 --> 0:07:36.916 many different schools. I don't think could corrupt the entire system. 0:07:37.036 --> 0:07:39.636 But as I learned in the FBI, and as we 0:07:39.636 --> 0:07:43.876 were told, often perception is reality. So it actually doesn't 0:07:43.876 --> 0:07:48.156 really matter if it is corrupted. In fact, it's whether 0:07:48.196 --> 0:07:52.396 people believe that the system is fair and that they 0:07:52.396 --> 0:07:54.996 can get a fair shake. You know this is true. 0:07:55.116 --> 0:07:56.556 You and I are both lawyers. This is true the 0:07:56.596 --> 0:08:00.356 justice system. It doesn't matter if you know it's only 0:08:00.396 --> 0:08:03.556 one judge that goes off the rails or does something 0:08:03.556 --> 0:08:07.236 on ethical when that becomes publicized. That is how people 0:08:07.356 --> 0:08:10.076 view the administration of justice generally, and I think that 0:08:10.076 --> 0:08:14.836 that is as big of a problem perception in terms 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:18.716 of legitimacy as as what is happening. In fact, I 0:08:18.716 --> 0:08:20.956 think what you just said, Ash is kind of profound, 0:08:21.036 --> 0:08:24.516 and it speaks to your genuinely unique perspective on this. 0:08:25.156 --> 0:08:26.796 You might be the only person in the world who's 0:08:26.796 --> 0:08:30.276 both been an FBI agent and also investigating crimes and 0:08:30.356 --> 0:08:32.876 also an admissions officer. So you know, had you been 0:08:32.876 --> 0:08:34.356 that the FBI, this would have been your case. I 0:08:34.436 --> 0:08:37.956 suppose the question I want to ask you is when 0:08:37.996 --> 0:08:41.196 the FBI officers agents and the prosecutors who put this 0:08:41.236 --> 0:08:44.556 case together, federal prosecutors and the FBI put this case together, 0:08:44.956 --> 0:08:48.796 they must have known that by bringing Singer to justice 0:08:49.076 --> 0:08:53.596 and also indicting some celebrities, let's let's not pretend that's irrelevant, 0:08:54.556 --> 0:08:58.436 some celebrity parents here, that this would be a national 0:08:58.476 --> 0:09:00.756 story at page one story, and they must have known 0:09:00.876 --> 0:09:04.236 that it would effectively cast some doubt on the legitimacy 0:09:04.236 --> 0:09:06.996 of the admissions process, even if it just involves, you know, 0:09:07.076 --> 0:09:10.236 fifty odd people to begin with. Should that or would that? 0:09:10.316 --> 0:09:11.796 I guess in the first question is would that have 0:09:11.876 --> 0:09:15.156 been a consideration for the FBI agents and the prosecutors 0:09:15.196 --> 0:09:16.716 working on this case, or would they have just said, 0:09:17.116 --> 0:09:18.996 who cares what the consequences are, We're going to go 0:09:19.036 --> 0:09:24.316 after a bad actor. Yeah, I don't think the perception 0:09:24.356 --> 0:09:27.796 of the system would have been a consideration. I think 0:09:27.836 --> 0:09:33.556 because the counter veiling, you know, consideration is to also 0:09:33.636 --> 0:09:36.956 send a signal to the people who are engaging in 0:09:36.956 --> 0:09:40.716 this behavior that we will follow the money, and we 0:09:40.756 --> 0:09:43.236 will follow it to Beverly Hills, we will follow it 0:09:43.276 --> 0:09:46.636 to the hedge funds of New York, and we will 0:09:46.636 --> 0:09:50.076 find you. And what's really interesting here, Noah, is that 0:09:50.276 --> 0:09:55.036 in this indictment, you know, these prosecutors charge this as 0:09:55.076 --> 0:09:58.676 a rico conspiracy. This is a racketeering conspiracy, which is 0:09:59.236 --> 0:10:03.756 harder to prove than a regular conspiracy. A statute designed 0:10:03.796 --> 0:10:06.996 to go against the mafia. It's it's a statute designed 0:10:06.996 --> 0:10:10.196 to go against the mafia, and interestingly, it's a statue 0:10:10.196 --> 0:10:13.316 that was designed to go after the top of the 0:10:13.316 --> 0:10:16.956 food chain, the godfather, the don And what's really interesting 0:10:17.076 --> 0:10:20.156 is that in this case they used the godfather, the 0:10:20.236 --> 0:10:23.876 guy at the top, to basically flip and catch the 0:10:23.956 --> 0:10:26.596 parents at the bottom. Well do you think he was 0:10:26.636 --> 0:10:28.356 the guy at the top, Singer? I mean, he's certainly 0:10:28.396 --> 0:10:30.876 the person who put the plan together. He's the thread 0:10:30.916 --> 0:10:33.036 that holds the case together. But on the other hand, 0:10:33.076 --> 0:10:35.196 it wasn't his money at a fundamental level. I mean, 0:10:35.316 --> 0:10:37.116 was he out there seducing the parents or were they 0:10:37.156 --> 0:10:39.756 showing up and asking him to get their kids into school. 0:10:41.396 --> 0:10:44.076 I think it was a little of both. So you're right, 0:10:44.116 --> 0:10:45.996 it wasn't his money, and I think that that's why 0:10:46.076 --> 0:10:48.476 they inverted the pyramid here to go after the people 0:10:48.516 --> 0:10:52.756 who were really trying to abuse their wealth and privilege. 0:10:53.116 --> 0:10:55.116 But what he was doing was running and we can 0:10:55.556 --> 0:10:58.556 talk about this because I did see legal versions of 0:10:58.596 --> 0:11:00.676 this that I had to address when I was at 0:11:00.756 --> 0:11:05.236 Yale Law School. He was essentially running and admissions consulting service. 0:11:05.476 --> 0:11:09.076 And this is you know these services out there. They say, look, 0:11:09.236 --> 0:11:11.076 I'm going to help your kid. I'll advise them on 0:11:11.116 --> 0:11:13.556 what to do, I'll look over their essays, i will 0:11:13.596 --> 0:11:15.476 give them all kinds of assistance to get into the 0:11:15.476 --> 0:11:19.076 best schools possible. And so I think you had many 0:11:19.116 --> 0:11:23.716 people coming and paying lots of money for these services. 0:11:23.796 --> 0:11:26.876 And then along the way, kind of like a conman does, 0:11:27.516 --> 0:11:32.396 he starts testing the waters and says, you know, here's 0:11:32.556 --> 0:11:37.276 you know, if you really want a guaranteed option, there's 0:11:37.356 --> 0:11:39.756 this for this amount of money, the side door option, 0:11:39.836 --> 0:11:44.036 whether it was the athletes or the SAT scores, and 0:11:44.236 --> 0:11:46.516 would test the waters, and I think for people who 0:11:46.956 --> 0:11:50.796 were intrigued by it, he would then follow through. So 0:11:50.836 --> 0:11:52.476 it does seem like some part of his business was 0:11:52.556 --> 0:11:55.676 doing kind of quote unquote legitimate and again I have 0:11:55.756 --> 0:11:59.636 issues with that admissions consulting, and then he would lead 0:11:59.836 --> 0:12:03.876 kind of the more unethical people down the path to 0:12:04.316 --> 0:12:09.276 outright bribery and front wow. So when you're sitting as 0:12:09.276 --> 0:12:11.916 an admissions director and you see an application, could you 0:12:11.956 --> 0:12:15.436 tell whether there was a consultant in the background coaching 0:12:15.596 --> 0:12:17.956 or were the good ones so good at their job 0:12:17.996 --> 0:12:23.196 that they could hide their efforts to improve an application? No, 0:12:23.396 --> 0:12:26.076 you can't tell. I mean, listen, you're you're looking at 0:12:26.116 --> 0:12:29.956 these You're evaluating people on paper. And unless you are 0:12:30.716 --> 0:12:34.316 an admissions office that has the bandwidth to do things 0:12:34.396 --> 0:12:38.116 like individual interviews, and most admissions offices don't. For the 0:12:38.196 --> 0:12:44.396 volume of applications they receive, you are really, again, trusting 0:12:44.516 --> 0:12:48.476 that this person is providing you with an accurate reflection 0:12:48.556 --> 0:12:51.396 of their own work, just as you do as a professor. 0:12:51.636 --> 0:12:54.756 You know, you want them to providing their own candidacy. 0:12:55.276 --> 0:12:56.716 And I have to tell you know, we don't have 0:12:56.756 --> 0:12:58.116 much in the way of testing either. You know, I 0:12:58.556 --> 0:13:01.436 occasionally get a student paper and think, huh, I'm suspicious. 0:13:01.436 --> 0:13:03.036 I think this might be a plagiarized paper. There's a 0:13:03.116 --> 0:13:05.356 there's a software package, believe it or not, that we 0:13:05.396 --> 0:13:08.436 can run the papers through to see if maybe they're plagiarized. 0:13:08.436 --> 0:13:11.156 And it's pretty good, but it's not perfect. And it's 0:13:11.196 --> 0:13:13.476 all we've got, you know, otherwise, unless I happen to 0:13:13.516 --> 0:13:16.436 know a source that the person is quoting from. You know, 0:13:16.476 --> 0:13:17.996 I've got no way of knowing. So you're you're right, 0:13:18.036 --> 0:13:19.956 A lot of education does rest on trust. Go ahead, 0:13:19.996 --> 0:13:24.076 A sorry, yeah no. And so you know, for me, 0:13:24.156 --> 0:13:26.556 when I first started as the den of admissions at 0:13:26.596 --> 0:13:30.316 Yale Law School, that was in two thousand and five, 0:13:30.436 --> 0:13:35.236 two thousand and six, the admissions landscape had changed so 0:13:35.316 --> 0:13:36.996 much from when I applied. I mean, I had no 0:13:37.036 --> 0:13:38.716 clue what I was doing when I applied to college. 0:13:38.756 --> 0:13:40.556 By the way, would you would you tell us that story? 0:13:40.556 --> 0:13:42.236 You talk about that in your I know you're CNN 0:13:42.276 --> 0:13:44.396 contributor and you wrote a terrific article for CNN about 0:13:44.396 --> 0:13:46.396 the scandal where you reflected on your own experiences. Can 0:13:46.436 --> 0:13:48.316 you tell us about that? Yeah, you know, I grew 0:13:48.356 --> 0:13:52.276 up in southern Virginia, and Virginia is a state that 0:13:52.356 --> 0:13:55.116 has fabulous schools, so most people, you know, go to 0:13:55.196 --> 0:13:57.956 school in state, and I went to a pretty average 0:13:57.956 --> 0:14:00.236 public school. You know, this was just not a place 0:14:00.276 --> 0:14:03.716 where people went to Ivy League schools. And I got 0:14:03.716 --> 0:14:06.996 a brochure for Princeton from Princeton in the mail and 0:14:07.316 --> 0:14:09.076 was like, oh, this looks like a really pretty campus. 0:14:09.396 --> 0:14:12.636 I want to apply. And you know, my parents are 0:14:12.756 --> 0:14:15.636 immigrants from India. They had no idea how all of 0:14:15.636 --> 0:14:18.476 this works. I used to study book to study for 0:14:18.516 --> 0:14:20.676 the l set. I'd more or less walked in cold 0:14:20.676 --> 0:14:24.236 to take it. And I just mailed in my sorry 0:14:24.036 --> 0:14:27.636 the set. And you know, I mailed in my application 0:14:27.676 --> 0:14:30.276 into this black hole and just figured somebody was going 0:14:30.316 --> 0:14:33.476 to look at it. And you know, I was pleasantly 0:14:33.516 --> 0:14:39.356 surprised to hear back maybe there were these services, consulting 0:14:39.356 --> 0:14:42.756 services and guide, you know, people who helped you back then. 0:14:42.836 --> 0:14:46.916 But I definitely didn't have any access to those. And 0:14:46.996 --> 0:14:49.476 does that mean that an admissions officer looked at your application, 0:14:49.636 --> 0:14:51.636 looked at where you'd gone to school, looked at your parents, 0:14:51.756 --> 0:14:54.116 knew what their occupations were, and said, this is just 0:14:54.156 --> 0:14:57.836 a very smart candidate who didn't get all the prep 0:14:57.876 --> 0:15:00.636 and so we're gonna build that into our assessment of 0:15:00.956 --> 0:15:04.076 the application. In other words, isn't there some complicated process 0:15:04.116 --> 0:15:07.756 whereby admissions officers try to figure out they read between 0:15:07.796 --> 0:15:09.996 the lines. This is separate from question of trust. They 0:15:09.996 --> 0:15:12.596 try to figure out whether a very well packaged candidate 0:15:12.676 --> 0:15:16.036 has self packaged or been packaged by a consultant. Isn't 0:15:16.036 --> 0:15:19.956 that part of the what a good admissions officer actually does. Yes, absolutely, 0:15:20.196 --> 0:15:22.436 there is some skepticism in the job, and I think 0:15:22.436 --> 0:15:25.076 this is where things like letters of recommendation really make 0:15:25.116 --> 0:15:29.916 a difference. You know, there was a local lawyer who 0:15:30.036 --> 0:15:32.836 ran our you know, mood court program at my high 0:15:32.876 --> 0:15:35.116 school who wrote me a recommendation. He actually got a 0:15:35.196 --> 0:15:37.796 note back from the dean of admissions, who he's met, 0:15:37.836 --> 0:15:40.916 a great letter. Yeah, he said, this was really helpful. 0:15:40.996 --> 0:15:42.556 And so, I mean, they just took a chance on me. 0:15:43.076 --> 0:15:45.996 And so when I became dean of admissions and suddenly saw, wow, 0:15:46.036 --> 0:15:50.036 you can pay five, ten, fifteen, forty thousand dollars to 0:15:50.236 --> 0:15:53.236 get people to help you not only apply to college, 0:15:53.236 --> 0:15:55.556 but to graduate school and law school in medical school, 0:15:56.436 --> 0:16:00.756 I was I was not pleased because for me, as 0:16:00.836 --> 0:16:04.916 a decision maker, I need to be able to do 0:16:04.956 --> 0:16:07.476 exactly what you just said, be able to assess each 0:16:07.556 --> 0:16:10.676 person on their own merits, taken to account all of 0:16:10.716 --> 0:16:16.556 the different factors that went into their application, including their background, 0:16:16.716 --> 0:16:21.076 and you know, knowledge of the process. So I actually 0:16:21.116 --> 0:16:24.836 added two questions to the Yale Law School application as 0:16:24.836 --> 0:16:29.436 a result of learning about this, I first added a 0:16:29.556 --> 0:16:33.236 question asking the applicant to disclose whether or not they 0:16:33.276 --> 0:16:37.076 received any assistance in preparing their application. Terrific question, and 0:16:37.276 --> 0:16:39.196 they just you know, and it's open ended. It says, 0:16:39.196 --> 0:16:42.836 if yes, just please explain. And the other was whether 0:16:43.156 --> 0:16:47.036 they were able to take a test preparation course, which 0:16:47.116 --> 0:16:49.996 I think is more common now. I don't know how 0:16:50.156 --> 0:16:52.756 you felt, you know, where you were in high school. 0:16:52.796 --> 0:16:55.196 I mean, they were super expensive at the time. I know, 0:16:55.556 --> 0:16:58.836 I didn't believe that they were that common back in then. No, 0:16:58.956 --> 0:17:01.996 I went to a private Jewish high school where, believe me, 0:17:02.076 --> 0:17:04.396 they were everyone was obsessed with college admissions. They started 0:17:04.396 --> 0:17:07.196 talking about it with us literally when we were twelve, 0:17:07.836 --> 0:17:10.796 and nobody took a a prep course for the SAT. 0:17:10.916 --> 0:17:13.036 That would have been considered very, very strange and you 0:17:13.076 --> 0:17:14.476 would have had to have been very rich to do that, 0:17:14.516 --> 0:17:17.276 and that just wasn't in people's consciousness. But now I 0:17:17.316 --> 0:17:21.156 recognize that it's it's ubiquitous. Yeah, it's ubiquitous, and so 0:17:21.236 --> 0:17:22.836 on that side, it is almost the flip, like I 0:17:22.876 --> 0:17:26.116 kind of want to know if people didn't because sometimes 0:17:26.396 --> 0:17:30.356 it could be a result of, you know, lack of 0:17:30.396 --> 0:17:33.276 access so why don't. I mean, I think that's fascinating 0:17:33.276 --> 0:17:35.636 what you did, and I think it's great. One question 0:17:35.636 --> 0:17:38.116 that I have is why don't colleges take it a 0:17:38.116 --> 0:17:42.156 step further? Why don't they say to students, listen, we 0:17:42.236 --> 0:17:44.756 need you to promise us as part of your application 0:17:45.516 --> 0:17:49.516 that you haven't been advised by a consultant, and then 0:17:50.556 --> 0:17:53.836 if you lie, we'll kick you out if we find 0:17:53.836 --> 0:17:56.436 out about that. I mean, if it's really unfair, and 0:17:56.476 --> 0:17:59.476 it seems like it really is unfair that richer kids 0:17:59.956 --> 0:18:02.676 have the opportunity to be counseled on their production of 0:18:02.716 --> 0:18:07.116 their application, and you know, if we know that that 0:18:07.156 --> 0:18:10.236 breaks the basic idea of fairness. And if it's really 0:18:10.236 --> 0:18:13.676 hard for admissions officers to tell whether someone has been 0:18:13.796 --> 0:18:17.076 properly packaged in that way or not, why not just 0:18:17.196 --> 0:18:18.956 why not just ban it? I mean, I understand that 0:18:18.996 --> 0:18:21.076 the test prep industry is harder to get around because 0:18:21.396 --> 0:18:23.436 you know, what if you sat at home and you know, 0:18:23.636 --> 0:18:25.876 did practice tests, and is that really so different? Or 0:18:25.876 --> 0:18:27.276 what if you did an online course that might be 0:18:27.276 --> 0:18:31.276 hard to test but to distinguish, but the actual consultancy, 0:18:31.276 --> 0:18:34.956 why not just ban it? I agree with you, Noah, 0:18:35.036 --> 0:18:37.516 I mean, but I have to tell you I got 0:18:37.556 --> 0:18:40.076 a lot of pushback when I included those questions on 0:18:40.116 --> 0:18:44.836 the law schoo application. From whom who pushed back on you? Well, 0:18:44.876 --> 0:18:48.716 I think some of Frankly, some of my colleagues from 0:18:48.716 --> 0:18:54.276 other colleges were surprised. Um. I think because they thought that, 0:18:54.516 --> 0:18:57.156 you know, they were like, what if it dissuades people 0:18:57.156 --> 0:19:00.436 from applying us? What did you tell them when I 0:19:00.476 --> 0:19:01.796 asked you that you said, I don't care at Sale 0:19:01.876 --> 0:19:05.476 Law School. I am pretty much. I mean, look, I 0:19:05.596 --> 0:19:09.516 think that you know, I have deep affection for Yale School. 0:19:09.516 --> 0:19:11.236 I think it's a very special place, and I think 0:19:11.236 --> 0:19:15.356 it's it's worth knowing who people are authentically. But what 0:19:15.396 --> 0:19:17.756 about what about all the other colleges and institutions, I 0:19:17.756 --> 0:19:20.076 mean who some of them are competing for applicants. So 0:19:20.156 --> 0:19:21.996 is it your sense that one reason more colleges don't 0:19:22.036 --> 0:19:24.916 do this is that they actually want the rich candidates 0:19:24.916 --> 0:19:27.996 whose parents buy them packaging, and so they wouldn't want 0:19:27.996 --> 0:19:30.276 to discourage those people from applying. I mean, if that's true, 0:19:30.396 --> 0:19:33.676 it's important for us to understand that that's true. Yes, 0:19:33.836 --> 0:19:36.196 And I think it's because it's not just they want 0:19:36.196 --> 0:19:39.036 them because they are rich, but because you know these 0:19:39.116 --> 0:19:43.676 are Look, I think that these are coming from places, 0:19:43.716 --> 0:19:46.996 you know, the top private schools like they are. This 0:19:47.196 --> 0:19:51.636 is standard practice at the top, you know private schools 0:19:51.756 --> 0:19:55.836 and people where where they are literally being groomed from 0:19:55.876 --> 0:19:57.716 ninth grade. But can we be I mean, can we 0:19:57.756 --> 0:19:59.716 be a little more brutal on these institutions that we 0:19:59.756 --> 0:20:02.676 both love and care a lot about. I mean, in fact, 0:20:02.876 --> 0:20:05.756 having some rich applicants is important for the colleges, not 0:20:05.796 --> 0:20:09.076 only because most colleges and universities can't afford to give 0:20:09.196 --> 0:20:11.116 financial aid to everybody, so they need some people who 0:20:11.196 --> 0:20:14.436 pay the full rack rate, but also because colleges and 0:20:14.556 --> 0:20:17.036 universities and you know they pay my salary to so 0:20:17.036 --> 0:20:18.796 I'm not I'm not claiming to be in any way 0:20:18.796 --> 0:20:21.876 example from this, they live on donations, and rich parents 0:20:21.916 --> 0:20:24.316 are more likely to be able to make meaningful donations. 0:20:24.316 --> 0:20:28.036 So isn't there, in fact, just a systematic preference at 0:20:28.076 --> 0:20:30.996 a broad level, not for every individual applicant to be rich, 0:20:31.036 --> 0:20:33.156 but for some rich people to go to the colleges. 0:20:34.276 --> 0:20:36.916 I think that's possible. I would say, probably more for 0:20:36.996 --> 0:20:40.076 the former reason you mentioned than for the latter. The 0:20:40.116 --> 0:20:42.436 idea that they need some people to pay full freight. 0:20:43.356 --> 0:20:46.996 So probably apart from the richest, richest universities that have 0:20:47.236 --> 0:20:52.636 tremendous endowments, with colleges and universities that might be running 0:20:52.636 --> 0:20:56.356 on a tuition driven model, do they do need people 0:20:56.556 --> 0:20:59.716 who can pay to come. They don't. They can't afford 0:20:59.756 --> 0:21:02.556 to give the kind of financial aid on the donor front. 0:21:02.916 --> 0:21:05.916 I honestly feel like, and again I mean, I'm looking 0:21:05.916 --> 0:21:08.156 at this from a graduate school, so you know, I 0:21:08.196 --> 0:21:10.716 don't know how it works at the college university level. 0:21:11.796 --> 0:21:14.396 I think that there can be a trade off. Right 0:21:15.356 --> 0:21:18.676 in my experience having talked to people that I've admitted 0:21:18.756 --> 0:21:21.596 and who have graduated and gone on to do amazing things, 0:21:22.156 --> 0:21:25.356 it's the people who are more the most grateful for 0:21:25.476 --> 0:21:29.756 the opportunity to be at a place, and particularly when 0:21:29.796 --> 0:21:32.596 they go on to become incredibly successful and have that 0:21:33.276 --> 0:21:36.196 gratitude and affection for the school that become I think 0:21:36.236 --> 0:21:41.916 the biggest supporters and donors and patrons of those institutions. 0:21:42.276 --> 0:21:45.036 So I think, as I mean, that's definitely true, there 0:21:45.036 --> 0:21:48.396 are we definitely know, incredibly generous alums who feel that, 0:21:48.556 --> 0:21:50.556 you know, the institution made them and are very loyal. 0:21:50.556 --> 0:21:53.596 But we also know people who make big donations to 0:21:53.916 --> 0:21:58.676 institutions because generation after generation of family members attended the school. 0:21:58.716 --> 0:22:00.556 And that's surely part of it. I mean at my 0:22:00.556 --> 0:22:04.036 own university at Harvard, where as part of a lawsuit 0:22:04.116 --> 0:22:08.556 by Asian Americans alleging discrimination in the admissions process, a 0:22:08.556 --> 0:22:10.916 lot of deep tales at the admissions process we're disclosed 0:22:10.916 --> 0:22:14.556 in open court. We learned about a VIP list, which 0:22:14.596 --> 0:22:17.676 was a special list under the control of the deans 0:22:17.716 --> 0:22:21.156 of admissions that was not for athletes. And we're going 0:22:21.236 --> 0:22:26.396 to come to athletes shortly, not for underprivileged kids, you know, 0:22:26.596 --> 0:22:29.196