1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:22,396 --> 00:00:25,396 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:31,556 --> 00:00:34,316 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Felton. Welcome to the first episode of our show. 4 00:00:35,116 --> 00:00:37,276 Speaker 1: Before we kick off the season, I wanted to share 5 00:00:37,316 --> 00:00:40,396 Speaker 1: a little bit about myself. I teach constitutional law at 6 00:00:40,396 --> 00:00:43,916 Speaker 1: Harvard and I write a column for Bloomberg Opinion. I 7 00:00:44,076 --> 00:00:46,756 Speaker 1: really wanted to do this show because I love going 8 00:00:46,756 --> 00:00:49,196 Speaker 1: to the deepest part of any subject to try to 9 00:00:49,196 --> 00:00:52,276 Speaker 1: figure out what's really happening underneath the news stories that 10 00:00:52,316 --> 00:00:55,236 Speaker 1: we read about every day. It's not always easy, and 11 00:00:55,316 --> 00:00:59,676 Speaker 1: it does take time, but it's also very satisfying. I 12 00:00:59,716 --> 00:01:02,116 Speaker 1: hope the conversation we're going to have now and the 13 00:01:02,156 --> 00:01:04,276 Speaker 1: ones that we'll have in the future will give you 14 00:01:04,316 --> 00:01:07,516 Speaker 1: the same sense of satisfaction. I want these to be 15 00:01:07,636 --> 00:01:10,196 Speaker 1: useful to you to help you figure out something really 16 00:01:10,236 --> 00:01:13,316 Speaker 1: new that gives you a different perspective on the issues 17 00:01:13,356 --> 00:01:16,476 Speaker 1: and the debates that are out there, whether it's politics, 18 00:01:16,596 --> 00:01:19,676 Speaker 1: criminal justice reform, or even some of the really sensational 19 00:01:19,716 --> 00:01:22,556 Speaker 1: stories in the news, like our first topic, the college 20 00:01:22,556 --> 00:01:26,276 Speaker 1: admissions scandal. After dozens of wealthy parents were indicted for 21 00:01:26,396 --> 00:01:29,796 Speaker 1: bribing college admissions officials to get their kids into highly 22 00:01:29,836 --> 00:01:35,316 Speaker 1: competitive universities. I could not stop thinking about the story. First, 23 00:01:35,676 --> 00:01:39,156 Speaker 1: as someone who lives and breathes academia myself, I was 24 00:01:39,276 --> 00:01:42,956 Speaker 1: amazed that such an elaborate scheme could exist and be 25 00:01:42,996 --> 00:01:46,476 Speaker 1: as successful as it was, given how heavily structured and 26 00:01:46,556 --> 00:01:51,196 Speaker 1: bureaucratic college admissions usually is. Yet someone was able to 27 00:01:51,236 --> 00:01:55,556 Speaker 1: corrupt the system systematically. I also wondered about the officials 28 00:01:55,596 --> 00:01:58,996 Speaker 1: who are responsible for sorting through the thousands of applications 29 00:01:59,236 --> 00:02:02,556 Speaker 1: and making judgment calls about each candidate at elite schools. 30 00:02:03,076 --> 00:02:05,556 Speaker 1: How do they make sense of the scandal and its fallout? 31 00:02:06,676 --> 00:02:09,516 Speaker 1: More importantly, when you're dealing with that many people trying 32 00:02:09,516 --> 00:02:12,076 Speaker 1: to get into your school, what is the best approach 33 00:02:12,156 --> 00:02:14,836 Speaker 1: to make sure that those who deserve a spot actually 34 00:02:14,836 --> 00:02:18,796 Speaker 1: get one. Today, we're extremely fortunate to have with us 35 00:02:19,036 --> 00:02:22,596 Speaker 1: Asha Rangapa. Asha has been the Dean of Admissions at 36 00:02:22,636 --> 00:02:24,556 Speaker 1: the Yale Law School, not only one of the finest 37 00:02:24,596 --> 00:02:27,516 Speaker 1: law schools in the country, maybe the finest law school, 38 00:02:27,836 --> 00:02:30,836 Speaker 1: but maybe not by coincidence, the one that Asha happened 39 00:02:30,836 --> 00:02:32,396 Speaker 1: to have gone to and that I happened to have 40 00:02:32,476 --> 00:02:35,116 Speaker 1: gone to. She teaches at the Jackson Institute for Global 41 00:02:35,156 --> 00:02:38,316 Speaker 1: Affairs at Yale. She's been a lawyer, a Fulbright scholar, 42 00:02:38,556 --> 00:02:42,836 Speaker 1: and most unusually an FBI special agent. I'm pretty sure 43 00:02:42,876 --> 00:02:45,316 Speaker 1: that makes Asha the only person in the world who's 44 00:02:45,316 --> 00:02:47,716 Speaker 1: both been the dean of admissions at a major university 45 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:52,156 Speaker 1: and also simultaneously someone who investigates crimes. Asha, thank you 46 00:02:52,236 --> 00:02:55,396 Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Thank you for having me Asha. 47 00:02:55,396 --> 00:02:58,796 Speaker 1: I want to start with the background to this scandal 48 00:02:59,156 --> 00:03:02,676 Speaker 1: that everyone's been talking about, run roughly by a ringleader 49 00:03:02,716 --> 00:03:06,356 Speaker 1: called William Singer, who helped people both cheat on the 50 00:03:06,476 --> 00:03:12,876 Speaker 1: SACT tests and also, at a more profound level of cheating, 51 00:03:13,196 --> 00:03:16,236 Speaker 1: enabled students to appear to be varc athletes when they weren't, 52 00:03:16,236 --> 00:03:20,756 Speaker 1: and did this in connection with various admissions officers. And 53 00:03:20,796 --> 00:03:23,596 Speaker 1: I want to start by asking you about the testing 54 00:03:23,756 --> 00:03:31,556 Speaker 1: side of this case. How did Singer pull off cheating 55 00:03:32,076 --> 00:03:37,956 Speaker 1: in this highly regulated area of testing. Well, it appeared 56 00:03:37,996 --> 00:03:43,636 Speaker 1: that he had effectively bribed proctors who administer the SAT 57 00:03:44,556 --> 00:03:49,476 Speaker 1: and then also arranged with parents to I think in 58 00:03:49,516 --> 00:03:52,476 Speaker 1: some cases, if not all, be able to get certain 59 00:03:52,516 --> 00:03:57,556 Speaker 1: accommodations to be able to take the test alone in 60 00:03:57,596 --> 00:04:02,796 Speaker 1: a room, after which the proctor would then correct the 61 00:04:03,036 --> 00:04:05,916 Speaker 1: exam and put in the right answer. I mean, it's 62 00:04:05,996 --> 00:04:09,876 Speaker 1: very astonishing. So as a result, today, when an admissions 63 00:04:09,916 --> 00:04:12,916 Speaker 1: officer college or a law school is looking at an application, 64 00:04:13,396 --> 00:04:16,076 Speaker 1: typically there won't be any notation of whether the person 65 00:04:16,156 --> 00:04:18,516 Speaker 1: had extra time at all. And maybe that's good from 66 00:04:18,516 --> 00:04:20,996 Speaker 1: the standpoint of fairness from the standpoint of people who 67 00:04:20,996 --> 00:04:23,636 Speaker 1: are genuinely disabled, but it might not be good from 68 00:04:23,676 --> 00:04:25,316 Speaker 1: the standpoint of people who are able to gain the 69 00:04:25,356 --> 00:04:29,716 Speaker 1: system and gain extra time. That's right, you know, And 70 00:04:29,756 --> 00:04:32,956 Speaker 1: I think that this is just a side again that 71 00:04:33,076 --> 00:04:36,396 Speaker 1: I know sort of secondhand because it's it's administered through 72 00:04:36,396 --> 00:04:41,876 Speaker 1: these testing services. But you know, I think it's probably 73 00:04:42,076 --> 00:04:44,636 Speaker 1: fairly rare to be able to gain the system, just 74 00:04:44,756 --> 00:04:48,356 Speaker 1: because I think typically these testing services are reluctant we 75 00:04:48,676 --> 00:04:51,436 Speaker 1: begin with, I mean, grants these accommodations. I would have 76 00:04:51,436 --> 00:04:55,076 Speaker 1: thought exactly the same thing Asha until I read about 77 00:04:55,116 --> 00:04:57,316 Speaker 1: this scandal. I Mean, one of the fascinating things about 78 00:04:57,356 --> 00:05:00,156 Speaker 1: the scandal is that the person who ran it seemed 79 00:05:00,196 --> 00:05:02,396 Speaker 1: to think the easiest part he actually outsourced this part 80 00:05:02,596 --> 00:05:04,396 Speaker 1: to the parents. You know, he held their hands, he 81 00:05:04,396 --> 00:05:06,156 Speaker 1: held the kids hands, he wrote applications. But when he 82 00:05:06,156 --> 00:05:08,476 Speaker 1: came to getting the accommodations, he just said, go to 83 00:05:08,516 --> 00:05:11,956 Speaker 1: your doctor and get an accommodation. And it seems like 84 00:05:11,996 --> 00:05:13,796 Speaker 1: all of these people whose kids then cheated on the 85 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:16,756 Speaker 1: SAT or the ACT did get accommodation. So it may 86 00:05:16,796 --> 00:05:18,836 Speaker 1: be the depending on the doctor. It's not that hard. 87 00:05:19,076 --> 00:05:20,836 Speaker 1: And it sounds as though, I mean, I'm not an 88 00:05:20,876 --> 00:05:22,636 Speaker 1: expert on this at all, but it sounds as though 89 00:05:22,996 --> 00:05:28,396 Speaker 1: the testing services accepted a doctor's note, which why shouldn't they, right, Yeah, 90 00:05:28,396 --> 00:05:32,996 Speaker 1: you know, you keep what's interesting here is that you know, 91 00:05:33,116 --> 00:05:36,596 Speaker 1: each at each stage of evaluation, you're really defer. You're 92 00:05:36,676 --> 00:05:43,036 Speaker 1: you're relying on the integrity of the process that is 93 00:05:43,036 --> 00:05:46,796 Speaker 1: providing you with the documentation. So the admissions dean is 94 00:05:46,796 --> 00:05:48,836 Speaker 1: going to rely on the test and that the test 95 00:05:48,956 --> 00:05:52,916 Speaker 1: was administered fairly and under you know, circumstances that are 96 00:05:52,956 --> 00:05:56,516 Speaker 1: relatively equal to all the people taking them. The testing 97 00:05:56,516 --> 00:05:58,956 Speaker 1: services are relying on the fact that when they get 98 00:05:58,996 --> 00:06:02,436 Speaker 1: doctor's notes, that they are doing that objectively and under 99 00:06:02,516 --> 00:06:06,396 Speaker 1: the you know, ethical obligations of their profession to only 100 00:06:07,116 --> 00:06:11,596 Speaker 1: provide diagnoses for people who are actually who warrant them. 101 00:06:11,876 --> 00:06:14,996 Speaker 1: And so we just see this breakdown at every stage 102 00:06:15,196 --> 00:06:20,116 Speaker 1: here in the scandal that really allows for a corruption 103 00:06:20,796 --> 00:06:26,276 Speaker 1: of really kind of this entire framework that everything stands on, 104 00:06:26,356 --> 00:06:29,556 Speaker 1: and it is I think, again, relatively few people. But 105 00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:32,836 Speaker 1: it then, as you note, Noah, just really calls into question, like, 106 00:06:32,996 --> 00:06:36,916 Speaker 1: how what can we trust here? You know, Asha, when 107 00:06:36,956 --> 00:06:40,236 Speaker 1: you were describing that everyone trusts in everyone in the process, 108 00:06:40,516 --> 00:06:43,316 Speaker 1: and then when people start systematically lying, the thing begins 109 00:06:43,356 --> 00:06:45,516 Speaker 1: to fall apart. I was immediately reminded of the mortgage 110 00:06:45,516 --> 00:06:49,676 Speaker 1: backed securities crisis. Yeah, where everyone thought to themselves, well, 111 00:06:49,916 --> 00:06:52,316 Speaker 1: the person who gathers the information on the mortgage application 112 00:06:52,476 --> 00:06:55,716 Speaker 1: must be telling the truth, and then the person who 113 00:06:55,716 --> 00:06:58,796 Speaker 1: then bought them mortgage backed security said well, we're collecting mortgages, 114 00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:00,876 Speaker 1: they're all full of true information. And then when they 115 00:07:00,876 --> 00:07:03,956 Speaker 1: all were false, we were suddenly all underwater. Is this 116 00:07:04,556 --> 00:07:08,476 Speaker 1: that kind of a crisis in your view for admissions generally? 117 00:07:08,596 --> 00:07:11,356 Speaker 1: Is system that capable of being corrupted by the rich? 118 00:07:11,916 --> 00:07:16,796 Speaker 1: I don't think so, Noah. Again. I mean, we'll see 119 00:07:16,796 --> 00:07:18,796 Speaker 1: how many people come out of these indictments, but right 120 00:07:18,836 --> 00:07:23,116 Speaker 1: now it's about fifty people relatively speaking. When we are 121 00:07:23,196 --> 00:07:26,916 Speaker 1: looking at the number of college applicants, I think that 122 00:07:28,436 --> 00:07:32,836 Speaker 1: this one entity which was you know, spread out among 123 00:07:32,876 --> 00:07:36,916 Speaker 1: many different schools. I don't think could corrupt the entire system. 124 00:07:37,036 --> 00:07:39,636 Speaker 1: But as I learned in the FBI, and as we 125 00:07:39,636 --> 00:07:43,876 Speaker 1: were told, often perception is reality. So it actually doesn't 126 00:07:43,876 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 1: really matter if it is corrupted. In fact, it's whether 127 00:07:48,196 --> 00:07:52,396 Speaker 1: people believe that the system is fair and that they 128 00:07:52,396 --> 00:07:54,996 Speaker 1: can get a fair shake. You know this is true. 129 00:07:55,116 --> 00:07:56,556 Speaker 1: You and I are both lawyers. This is true the 130 00:07:56,596 --> 00:08:00,356 Speaker 1: justice system. It doesn't matter if you know it's only 131 00:08:00,396 --> 00:08:03,556 Speaker 1: one judge that goes off the rails or does something 132 00:08:03,556 --> 00:08:07,236 Speaker 1: on ethical when that becomes publicized. That is how people 133 00:08:07,356 --> 00:08:10,076 Speaker 1: view the administration of justice generally, and I think that 134 00:08:10,076 --> 00:08:14,836 Speaker 1: that is as big of a problem perception in terms 135 00:08:14,876 --> 00:08:18,716 Speaker 1: of legitimacy as as what is happening. In fact, I 136 00:08:18,716 --> 00:08:20,956 Speaker 1: think what you just said, Ash is kind of profound, 137 00:08:21,036 --> 00:08:24,516 Speaker 1: and it speaks to your genuinely unique perspective on this. 138 00:08:25,156 --> 00:08:26,796 Speaker 1: You might be the only person in the world who's 139 00:08:26,796 --> 00:08:30,276 Speaker 1: both been an FBI agent and also investigating crimes and 140 00:08:30,356 --> 00:08:32,876 Speaker 1: also an admissions officer. So you know, had you been 141 00:08:32,876 --> 00:08:34,356 Speaker 1: that the FBI, this would have been your case. I 142 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:37,956 Speaker 1: suppose the question I want to ask you is when 143 00:08:37,996 --> 00:08:41,196 Speaker 1: the FBI officers agents and the prosecutors who put this 144 00:08:41,236 --> 00:08:44,556 Speaker 1: case together, federal prosecutors and the FBI put this case together, 145 00:08:44,956 --> 00:08:48,796 Speaker 1: they must have known that by bringing Singer to justice 146 00:08:49,076 --> 00:08:53,596 Speaker 1: and also indicting some celebrities, let's let's not pretend that's irrelevant, 147 00:08:54,556 --> 00:08:58,436 Speaker 1: some celebrity parents here, that this would be a national 148 00:08:58,476 --> 00:09:00,756 Speaker 1: story at page one story, and they must have known 149 00:09:00,876 --> 00:09:04,236 Speaker 1: that it would effectively cast some doubt on the legitimacy 150 00:09:04,236 --> 00:09:06,996 Speaker 1: of the admissions process, even if it just involves, you know, 151 00:09:07,076 --> 00:09:10,236 Speaker 1: fifty odd people to begin with. Should that or would that? 152 00:09:10,316 --> 00:09:11,796 Speaker 1: I guess in the first question is would that have 153 00:09:11,876 --> 00:09:15,156 Speaker 1: been a consideration for the FBI agents and the prosecutors 154 00:09:15,196 --> 00:09:16,716 Speaker 1: working on this case, or would they have just said, 155 00:09:17,116 --> 00:09:18,996 Speaker 1: who cares what the consequences are, We're going to go 156 00:09:19,036 --> 00:09:24,316 Speaker 1: after a bad actor. Yeah, I don't think the perception 157 00:09:24,356 --> 00:09:27,796 Speaker 1: of the system would have been a consideration. I think 158 00:09:27,836 --> 00:09:33,556 Speaker 1: because the counter veiling, you know, consideration is to also 159 00:09:33,636 --> 00:09:36,956 Speaker 1: send a signal to the people who are engaging in 160 00:09:36,956 --> 00:09:40,716 Speaker 1: this behavior that we will follow the money, and we 161 00:09:40,756 --> 00:09:43,236 Speaker 1: will follow it to Beverly Hills, we will follow it 162 00:09:43,276 --> 00:09:46,636 Speaker 1: to the hedge funds of New York, and we will 163 00:09:46,636 --> 00:09:50,076 Speaker 1: find you. And what's really interesting here, Noah, is that 164 00:09:50,276 --> 00:09:55,036 Speaker 1: in this indictment, you know, these prosecutors charge this as 165 00:09:55,076 --> 00:09:58,676 Speaker 1: a rico conspiracy. This is a racketeering conspiracy, which is 166 00:09:59,236 --> 00:10:03,756 Speaker 1: harder to prove than a regular conspiracy. A statute designed 167 00:10:03,796 --> 00:10:06,996 Speaker 1: to go against the mafia. It's it's a statute designed 168 00:10:06,996 --> 00:10:10,196 Speaker 1: to go against the mafia, and interestingly, it's a statue 169 00:10:10,196 --> 00:10:13,316 Speaker 1: that was designed to go after the top of the 170 00:10:13,316 --> 00:10:16,956 Speaker 1: food chain, the godfather, the don And what's really interesting 171 00:10:17,076 --> 00:10:20,156 Speaker 1: is that in this case they used the godfather, the 172 00:10:20,236 --> 00:10:23,876 Speaker 1: guy at the top, to basically flip and catch the 173 00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:26,596 Speaker 1: parents at the bottom. Well do you think he was 174 00:10:26,636 --> 00:10:28,356 Speaker 1: the guy at the top, Singer? I mean, he's certainly 175 00:10:28,396 --> 00:10:30,876 Speaker 1: the person who put the plan together. He's the thread 176 00:10:30,916 --> 00:10:33,036 Speaker 1: that holds the case together. But on the other hand, 177 00:10:33,076 --> 00:10:35,196 Speaker 1: it wasn't his money at a fundamental level. I mean, 178 00:10:35,316 --> 00:10:37,116 Speaker 1: was he out there seducing the parents or were they 179 00:10:37,156 --> 00:10:39,756 Speaker 1: showing up and asking him to get their kids into school. 180 00:10:41,396 --> 00:10:44,076 Speaker 1: I think it was a little of both. So you're right, 181 00:10:44,116 --> 00:10:45,996 Speaker 1: it wasn't his money, and I think that that's why 182 00:10:46,076 --> 00:10:48,476 Speaker 1: they inverted the pyramid here to go after the people 183 00:10:48,516 --> 00:10:52,756 Speaker 1: who were really trying to abuse their wealth and privilege. 184 00:10:53,116 --> 00:10:55,116 Speaker 1: But what he was doing was running and we can 185 00:10:55,556 --> 00:10:58,556 Speaker 1: talk about this because I did see legal versions of 186 00:10:58,596 --> 00:11:00,676 Speaker 1: this that I had to address when I was at 187 00:11:00,756 --> 00:11:05,236 Speaker 1: Yale Law School. He was essentially running and admissions consulting service. 188 00:11:05,476 --> 00:11:09,076 Speaker 1: And this is you know these services out there. They say, look, 189 00:11:09,236 --> 00:11:11,076 Speaker 1: I'm going to help your kid. I'll advise them on 190 00:11:11,116 --> 00:11:13,556 Speaker 1: what to do, I'll look over their essays, i will 191 00:11:13,596 --> 00:11:15,476 Speaker 1: give them all kinds of assistance to get into the 192 00:11:15,476 --> 00:11:19,076 Speaker 1: best schools possible. And so I think you had many 193 00:11:19,116 --> 00:11:23,716 Speaker 1: people coming and paying lots of money for these services. 194 00:11:23,796 --> 00:11:26,876 Speaker 1: And then along the way, kind of like a conman does, 195 00:11:27,516 --> 00:11:32,396 Speaker 1: he starts testing the waters and says, you know, here's 196 00:11:32,556 --> 00:11:37,276 Speaker 1: you know, if you really want a guaranteed option, there's 197 00:11:37,356 --> 00:11:39,756 Speaker 1: this for this amount of money, the side door option, 198 00:11:39,836 --> 00:11:44,036 Speaker 1: whether it was the athletes or the SAT scores, and 199 00:11:44,236 --> 00:11:46,516 Speaker 1: would test the waters, and I think for people who 200 00:11:46,956 --> 00:11:50,796 Speaker 1: were intrigued by it, he would then follow through. So 201 00:11:50,836 --> 00:11:52,476 Speaker 1: it does seem like some part of his business was 202 00:11:52,556 --> 00:11:55,676 Speaker 1: doing kind of quote unquote legitimate and again I have 203 00:11:55,756 --> 00:11:59,636 Speaker 1: issues with that admissions consulting, and then he would lead 204 00:11:59,836 --> 00:12:03,876 Speaker 1: kind of the more unethical people down the path to 205 00:12:04,316 --> 00:12:09,276 Speaker 1: outright bribery and front wow. So when you're sitting as 206 00:12:09,276 --> 00:12:11,916 Speaker 1: an admissions director and you see an application, could you 207 00:12:11,956 --> 00:12:15,436 Speaker 1: tell whether there was a consultant in the background coaching 208 00:12:15,596 --> 00:12:17,956 Speaker 1: or were the good ones so good at their job 209 00:12:17,996 --> 00:12:23,196 Speaker 1: that they could hide their efforts to improve an application? No, 210 00:12:23,396 --> 00:12:26,076 Speaker 1: you can't tell. I mean, listen, you're you're looking at 211 00:12:26,116 --> 00:12:29,956 Speaker 1: these You're evaluating people on paper. And unless you are 212 00:12:30,716 --> 00:12:34,316 Speaker 1: an admissions office that has the bandwidth to do things 213 00:12:34,396 --> 00:12:38,116 Speaker 1: like individual interviews, and most admissions offices don't. For the 214 00:12:38,196 --> 00:12:44,396 Speaker 1: volume of applications they receive, you are really, again, trusting 215 00:12:44,516 --> 00:12:48,476 Speaker 1: that this person is providing you with an accurate reflection 216 00:12:48,556 --> 00:12:51,396 Speaker 1: of their own work, just as you do as a professor. 217 00:12:51,636 --> 00:12:54,756 Speaker 1: You know, you want them to providing their own candidacy. 218 00:12:55,276 --> 00:12:56,716 Speaker 1: And I have to tell you know, we don't have 219 00:12:56,756 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 1: much in the way of testing either. You know, I 220 00:12:58,556 --> 00:13:01,436 Speaker 1: occasionally get a student paper and think, huh, I'm suspicious. 221 00:13:01,436 --> 00:13:03,036 Speaker 1: I think this might be a plagiarized paper. There's a 222 00:13:03,116 --> 00:13:05,356 Speaker 1: there's a software package, believe it or not, that we 223 00:13:05,396 --> 00:13:08,436 Speaker 1: can run the papers through to see if maybe they're plagiarized. 224 00:13:08,436 --> 00:13:11,156 Speaker 1: And it's pretty good, but it's not perfect. And it's 225 00:13:11,196 --> 00:13:13,476 Speaker 1: all we've got, you know, otherwise, unless I happen to 226 00:13:13,516 --> 00:13:16,436 Speaker 1: know a source that the person is quoting from. You know, 227 00:13:16,476 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 1: I've got no way of knowing. So you're you're right, 228 00:13:18,036 --> 00:13:19,956 Speaker 1: A lot of education does rest on trust. Go ahead, 229 00:13:19,996 --> 00:13:24,076 Speaker 1: A sorry, yeah no. And so you know, for me, 230 00:13:24,156 --> 00:13:26,556 Speaker 1: when I first started as the den of admissions at 231 00:13:26,596 --> 00:13:30,316 Speaker 1: Yale Law School, that was in two thousand and five, 232 00:13:30,436 --> 00:13:35,236 Speaker 1: two thousand and six, the admissions landscape had changed so 233 00:13:35,316 --> 00:13:36,996 Speaker 1: much from when I applied. I mean, I had no 234 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:38,716 Speaker 1: clue what I was doing when I applied to college. 235 00:13:38,756 --> 00:13:40,556 Speaker 1: By the way, would you would you tell us that story? 236 00:13:40,556 --> 00:13:42,236 Speaker 1: You talk about that in your I know you're CNN 237 00:13:42,276 --> 00:13:44,396 Speaker 1: contributor and you wrote a terrific article for CNN about 238 00:13:44,396 --> 00:13:46,396 Speaker 1: the scandal where you reflected on your own experiences. Can 239 00:13:46,436 --> 00:13:48,316 Speaker 1: you tell us about that? Yeah, you know, I grew 240 00:13:48,356 --> 00:13:52,276 Speaker 1: up in southern Virginia, and Virginia is a state that 241 00:13:52,356 --> 00:13:55,116 Speaker 1: has fabulous schools, so most people, you know, go to 242 00:13:55,196 --> 00:13:57,956 Speaker 1: school in state, and I went to a pretty average 243 00:13:57,956 --> 00:14:00,236 Speaker 1: public school. You know, this was just not a place 244 00:14:00,276 --> 00:14:03,716 Speaker 1: where people went to Ivy League schools. And I got 245 00:14:03,716 --> 00:14:06,996 Speaker 1: a brochure for Princeton from Princeton in the mail and 246 00:14:07,316 --> 00:14:09,076 Speaker 1: was like, oh, this looks like a really pretty campus. 247 00:14:09,396 --> 00:14:12,636 Speaker 1: I want to apply. And you know, my parents are 248 00:14:12,756 --> 00:14:15,636 Speaker 1: immigrants from India. They had no idea how all of 249 00:14:15,636 --> 00:14:18,476 Speaker 1: this works. I used to study book to study for 250 00:14:18,516 --> 00:14:20,676 Speaker 1: the l set. I'd more or less walked in cold 251 00:14:20,676 --> 00:14:24,236 Speaker 1: to take it. And I just mailed in my sorry 252 00:14:24,036 --> 00:14:27,636 Speaker 1: the set. And you know, I mailed in my application 253 00:14:27,676 --> 00:14:30,276 Speaker 1: into this black hole and just figured somebody was going 254 00:14:30,316 --> 00:14:33,476 Speaker 1: to look at it. And you know, I was pleasantly 255 00:14:33,516 --> 00:14:39,356 Speaker 1: surprised to hear back maybe there were these services, consulting 256 00:14:39,356 --> 00:14:42,756 Speaker 1: services and guide, you know, people who helped you back then. 257 00:14:42,836 --> 00:14:46,916 Speaker 1: But I definitely didn't have any access to those. And 258 00:14:46,996 --> 00:14:49,476 Speaker 1: does that mean that an admissions officer looked at your application, 259 00:14:49,636 --> 00:14:51,636 Speaker 1: looked at where you'd gone to school, looked at your parents, 260 00:14:51,756 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 1: knew what their occupations were, and said, this is just 261 00:14:54,156 --> 00:14:57,836 Speaker 1: a very smart candidate who didn't get all the prep 262 00:14:57,876 --> 00:15:00,636 Speaker 1: and so we're gonna build that into our assessment of 263 00:15:00,956 --> 00:15:04,076 Speaker 1: the application. In other words, isn't there some complicated process 264 00:15:04,116 --> 00:15:07,756 Speaker 1: whereby admissions officers try to figure out they read between 265 00:15:07,796 --> 00:15:09,996 Speaker 1: the lines. This is separate from question of trust. They 266 00:15:09,996 --> 00:15:12,596 Speaker 1: try to figure out whether a very well packaged candidate 267 00:15:12,676 --> 00:15:16,036 Speaker 1: has self packaged or been packaged by a consultant. Isn't 268 00:15:16,036 --> 00:15:19,956 Speaker 1: that part of the what a good admissions officer actually does. Yes, absolutely, 269 00:15:20,196 --> 00:15:22,436 Speaker 1: there is some skepticism in the job, and I think 270 00:15:22,436 --> 00:15:25,076 Speaker 1: this is where things like letters of recommendation really make 271 00:15:25,116 --> 00:15:29,916 Speaker 1: a difference. You know, there was a local lawyer who 272 00:15:30,036 --> 00:15:32,836 Speaker 1: ran our you know, mood court program at my high 273 00:15:32,876 --> 00:15:35,116 Speaker 1: school who wrote me a recommendation. He actually got a 274 00:15:35,196 --> 00:15:37,796 Speaker 1: note back from the dean of admissions, who he's met, 275 00:15:37,836 --> 00:15:40,916 Speaker 1: a great letter. Yeah, he said, this was really helpful. 276 00:15:40,996 --> 00:15:42,556 Speaker 1: And so, I mean, they just took a chance on me. 277 00:15:43,076 --> 00:15:45,996 Speaker 1: And so when I became dean of admissions and suddenly saw, wow, 278 00:15:46,036 --> 00:15:50,036 Speaker 1: you can pay five, ten, fifteen, forty thousand dollars to 279 00:15:50,236 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 1: get people to help you not only apply to college, 280 00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:55,556 Speaker 1: but to graduate school and law school in medical school, 281 00:15:56,436 --> 00:16:00,756 Speaker 1: I was I was not pleased because for me, as 282 00:16:00,836 --> 00:16:04,916 Speaker 1: a decision maker, I need to be able to do 283 00:16:04,956 --> 00:16:07,476 Speaker 1: exactly what you just said, be able to assess each 284 00:16:07,556 --> 00:16:10,676 Speaker 1: person on their own merits, taken to account all of 285 00:16:10,716 --> 00:16:16,556 Speaker 1: the different factors that went into their application, including their background, 286 00:16:16,716 --> 00:16:21,076 Speaker 1: and you know, knowledge of the process. So I actually 287 00:16:21,116 --> 00:16:24,836 Speaker 1: added two questions to the Yale Law School application as 288 00:16:24,836 --> 00:16:29,436 Speaker 1: a result of learning about this, I first added a 289 00:16:29,556 --> 00:16:33,236 Speaker 1: question asking the applicant to disclose whether or not they 290 00:16:33,276 --> 00:16:37,076 Speaker 1: received any assistance in preparing their application. Terrific question, and 291 00:16:37,276 --> 00:16:39,196 Speaker 1: they just you know, and it's open ended. It says, 292 00:16:39,196 --> 00:16:42,836 Speaker 1: if yes, just please explain. And the other was whether 293 00:16:43,156 --> 00:16:47,036 Speaker 1: they were able to take a test preparation course, which 294 00:16:47,116 --> 00:16:49,996 Speaker 1: I think is more common now. I don't know how 295 00:16:50,156 --> 00:16:52,756 Speaker 1: you felt, you know, where you were in high school. 296 00:16:52,796 --> 00:16:55,196 Speaker 1: I mean, they were super expensive at the time. I know, 297 00:16:55,556 --> 00:16:58,836 Speaker 1: I didn't believe that they were that common back in then. No, 298 00:16:58,956 --> 00:17:01,996 Speaker 1: I went to a private Jewish high school where, believe me, 299 00:17:02,076 --> 00:17:04,396 Speaker 1: they were everyone was obsessed with college admissions. They started 300 00:17:04,396 --> 00:17:07,196 Speaker 1: talking about it with us literally when we were twelve, 301 00:17:07,836 --> 00:17:10,796 Speaker 1: and nobody took a a prep course for the SAT. 302 00:17:10,916 --> 00:17:13,036 Speaker 1: That would have been considered very, very strange and you 303 00:17:13,076 --> 00:17:14,476 Speaker 1: would have had to have been very rich to do that, 304 00:17:14,516 --> 00:17:17,276 Speaker 1: and that just wasn't in people's consciousness. But now I 305 00:17:17,316 --> 00:17:21,156 Speaker 1: recognize that it's it's ubiquitous. Yeah, it's ubiquitous, and so 306 00:17:21,236 --> 00:17:22,836 Speaker 1: on that side, it is almost the flip, like I 307 00:17:22,876 --> 00:17:26,116 Speaker 1: kind of want to know if people didn't because sometimes 308 00:17:26,396 --> 00:17:30,356 Speaker 1: it could be a result of, you know, lack of 309 00:17:30,396 --> 00:17:33,276 Speaker 1: access so why don't. I mean, I think that's fascinating 310 00:17:33,276 --> 00:17:35,636 Speaker 1: what you did, and I think it's great. One question 311 00:17:35,636 --> 00:17:38,116 Speaker 1: that I have is why don't colleges take it a 312 00:17:38,116 --> 00:17:42,156 Speaker 1: step further? Why don't they say to students, listen, we 313 00:17:42,236 --> 00:17:44,756 Speaker 1: need you to promise us as part of your application 314 00:17:45,516 --> 00:17:49,516 Speaker 1: that you haven't been advised by a consultant, and then 315 00:17:50,556 --> 00:17:53,836 Speaker 1: if you lie, we'll kick you out if we find 316 00:17:53,836 --> 00:17:56,436 Speaker 1: out about that. I mean, if it's really unfair, and 317 00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:59,476 Speaker 1: it seems like it really is unfair that richer kids 318 00:17:59,956 --> 00:18:02,676 Speaker 1: have the opportunity to be counseled on their production of 319 00:18:02,716 --> 00:18:07,116 Speaker 1: their application, and you know, if we know that that 320 00:18:07,156 --> 00:18:10,236 Speaker 1: breaks the basic idea of fairness. And if it's really 321 00:18:10,236 --> 00:18:13,676 Speaker 1: hard for admissions officers to tell whether someone has been 322 00:18:13,796 --> 00:18:17,076 Speaker 1: properly packaged in that way or not, why not just 323 00:18:17,196 --> 00:18:18,956 Speaker 1: why not just ban it? I mean, I understand that 324 00:18:18,996 --> 00:18:21,076 Speaker 1: the test prep industry is harder to get around because 325 00:18:21,396 --> 00:18:23,436 Speaker 1: you know, what if you sat at home and you know, 326 00:18:23,636 --> 00:18:25,876 Speaker 1: did practice tests, and is that really so different? Or 327 00:18:25,876 --> 00:18:27,276 Speaker 1: what if you did an online course that might be 328 00:18:27,276 --> 00:18:31,276 Speaker 1: hard to test but to distinguish, but the actual consultancy, 329 00:18:31,276 --> 00:18:34,956 Speaker 1: why not just ban it? I agree with you, Noah, 330 00:18:35,036 --> 00:18:37,516 Speaker 1: I mean, but I have to tell you I got 331 00:18:37,556 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 1: a lot of pushback when I included those questions on 332 00:18:40,116 --> 00:18:44,836 Speaker 1: the law schoo application. From whom who pushed back on you? Well, 333 00:18:44,876 --> 00:18:48,716 Speaker 1: I think some of Frankly, some of my colleagues from 334 00:18:48,716 --> 00:18:54,276 Speaker 1: other colleges were surprised. Um. I think because they thought that, 335 00:18:54,516 --> 00:18:57,156 Speaker 1: you know, they were like, what if it dissuades people 336 00:18:57,156 --> 00:19:00,436 Speaker 1: from applying us? What did you tell them when I 337 00:19:00,476 --> 00:19:01,796 Speaker 1: asked you that you said, I don't care at Sale 338 00:19:01,876 --> 00:19:05,476 Speaker 1: Law School. I am pretty much. I mean, look, I 339 00:19:05,596 --> 00:19:09,516 Speaker 1: think that you know, I have deep affection for Yale School. 340 00:19:09,516 --> 00:19:11,236 Speaker 1: I think it's a very special place, and I think 341 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:15,356 Speaker 1: it's it's worth knowing who people are authentically. But what 342 00:19:15,396 --> 00:19:17,756 Speaker 1: about what about all the other colleges and institutions, I 343 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:20,076 Speaker 1: mean who some of them are competing for applicants. So 344 00:19:20,156 --> 00:19:21,996 Speaker 1: is it your sense that one reason more colleges don't 345 00:19:22,036 --> 00:19:24,916 Speaker 1: do this is that they actually want the rich candidates 346 00:19:24,916 --> 00:19:27,996 Speaker 1: whose parents buy them packaging, and so they wouldn't want 347 00:19:27,996 --> 00:19:30,276 Speaker 1: to discourage those people from applying. I mean, if that's true, 348 00:19:30,396 --> 00:19:33,676 Speaker 1: it's important for us to understand that that's true. Yes, 349 00:19:33,836 --> 00:19:36,196 Speaker 1: And I think it's because it's not just they want 350 00:19:36,196 --> 00:19:39,036 Speaker 1: them because they are rich, but because you know these 351 00:19:39,116 --> 00:19:43,676 Speaker 1: are Look, I think that these are coming from places, 352 00:19:43,716 --> 00:19:46,996 Speaker 1: you know, the top private schools like they are. This 353 00:19:47,196 --> 00:19:51,636 Speaker 1: is standard practice at the top, you know private schools 354 00:19:51,756 --> 00:19:55,836 Speaker 1: and people where where they are literally being groomed from 355 00:19:55,876 --> 00:19:57,716 Speaker 1: ninth grade. But can we be I mean, can we 356 00:19:57,756 --> 00:19:59,716 Speaker 1: be a little more brutal on these institutions that we 357 00:19:59,756 --> 00:20:02,676 Speaker 1: both love and care a lot about. I mean, in fact, 358 00:20:02,876 --> 00:20:05,756 Speaker 1: having some rich applicants is important for the colleges, not 359 00:20:05,796 --> 00:20:09,076 Speaker 1: only because most colleges and universities can't afford to give 360 00:20:09,196 --> 00:20:11,116 Speaker 1: financial aid to everybody, so they need some people who 361 00:20:11,196 --> 00:20:14,436 Speaker 1: pay the full rack rate, but also because colleges and 362 00:20:14,556 --> 00:20:17,036 Speaker 1: universities and you know they pay my salary to so 363 00:20:17,036 --> 00:20:18,796 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not claiming to be in any way 364 00:20:18,796 --> 00:20:21,876 Speaker 1: example from this, they live on donations, and rich parents 365 00:20:21,916 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 1: are more likely to be able to make meaningful donations. 366 00:20:24,316 --> 00:20:28,036 Speaker 1: So isn't there, in fact, just a systematic preference at 367 00:20:28,076 --> 00:20:30,996 Speaker 1: a broad level, not for every individual applicant to be rich, 368 00:20:31,036 --> 00:20:33,156 Speaker 1: but for some rich people to go to the colleges. 369 00:20:34,276 --> 00:20:36,916 Speaker 1: I think that's possible. I would say, probably more for 370 00:20:36,996 --> 00:20:40,076 Speaker 1: the former reason you mentioned than for the latter. The 371 00:20:40,116 --> 00:20:42,436 Speaker 1: idea that they need some people to pay full freight. 372 00:20:43,356 --> 00:20:46,996 Speaker 1: So probably apart from the richest, richest universities that have 373 00:20:47,236 --> 00:20:52,636 Speaker 1: tremendous endowments, with colleges and universities that might be running 374 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:56,356 Speaker 1: on a tuition driven model, do they do need people 375 00:20:56,556 --> 00:20:59,716 Speaker 1: who can pay to come. They don't. They can't afford 376 00:20:59,756 --> 00:21:02,556 Speaker 1: to give the kind of financial aid on the donor front. 377 00:21:02,916 --> 00:21:05,916 Speaker 1: I honestly feel like, and again I mean, I'm looking 378 00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:08,156 Speaker 1: at this from a graduate school, so you know, I 379 00:21:08,196 --> 00:21:10,716 Speaker 1: don't know how it works at the college university level. 380 00:21:11,796 --> 00:21:14,396 Speaker 1: I think that there can be a trade off. Right 381 00:21:15,356 --> 00:21:18,676 Speaker 1: in my experience having talked to people that I've admitted 382 00:21:18,756 --> 00:21:21,596 Speaker 1: and who have graduated and gone on to do amazing things, 383 00:21:22,156 --> 00:21:25,356 Speaker 1: it's the people who are more the most grateful for 384 00:21:25,476 --> 00:21:29,756 Speaker 1: the opportunity to be at a place, and particularly when 385 00:21:29,796 --> 00:21:32,596 Speaker 1: they go on to become incredibly successful and have that 386 00:21:33,276 --> 00:21:36,196 Speaker 1: gratitude and affection for the school that become I think 387 00:21:36,236 --> 00:21:41,916 Speaker 1: the biggest supporters and donors and patrons of those institutions. 388 00:21:42,276 --> 00:21:45,036 Speaker 1: So I think, as I mean, that's definitely true, there 389 00:21:45,036 --> 00:21:48,396 Speaker 1: are we definitely know, incredibly generous alums who feel that, 390 00:21:48,556 --> 00:21:50,556 Speaker 1: you know, the institution made them and are very loyal. 391 00:21:50,556 --> 00:21:53,596 Speaker 1: But we also know people who make big donations to 392 00:21:53,916 --> 00:21:58,676 Speaker 1: institutions because generation after generation of family members attended the school. 393 00:21:58,716 --> 00:22:00,556 Speaker 1: And that's surely part of it. I mean at my 394 00:22:00,556 --> 00:22:04,036 Speaker 1: own university at Harvard, where as part of a lawsuit 395 00:22:04,116 --> 00:22:08,556 Speaker 1: by Asian Americans alleging discrimination in the admissions process, a 396 00:22:08,556 --> 00:22:10,916 Speaker 1: lot of deep tales at the admissions process we're disclosed 397 00:22:10,916 --> 00:22:14,556 Speaker 1: in open court. We learned about a VIP list, which 398 00:22:14,596 --> 00:22:17,676 Speaker 1: was a special list under the control of the deans 399 00:22:17,716 --> 00:22:21,156 Speaker 1: of admissions that was not for athletes. And we're going 400 00:22:21,236 --> 00:22:26,396 Speaker 1: to come to athletes shortly, not for underprivileged kids, you know, 401 00:22:26,596 --> 00:22:29,196 Speaker 1: but rather for the children of the very influential and 402 00:22:29,276 --> 00:22:31,756 Speaker 1: in many cases very rich, and they were put on 403 00:22:31,796 --> 00:22:35,436 Speaker 1: a special list and they had a huge advantage in admissions. 404 00:22:35,476 --> 00:22:38,756 Speaker 1: I mean, that certainly exists at the university levels as 405 00:22:38,756 --> 00:22:42,076 Speaker 1: we now we now know and presumably if that can 406 00:22:42,076 --> 00:22:43,876 Speaker 1: be justified, and I don't think it can, but if 407 00:22:43,876 --> 00:22:45,316 Speaker 1: it could be, it would be on the idea that 408 00:22:45,996 --> 00:22:49,156 Speaker 1: you know, you need you need people and make donations. Yeah, 409 00:22:49,276 --> 00:22:53,476 Speaker 1: that if their institutional model is built on, you know, 410 00:22:53,556 --> 00:23:00,116 Speaker 1: some degree of reliance and continuity with with those people, 411 00:23:00,636 --> 00:23:04,036 Speaker 1: for sure. Um, so yeah, I mean so to Again, 412 00:23:04,116 --> 00:23:06,076 Speaker 1: to go back to this whole idea, they don't want 413 00:23:06,116 --> 00:23:08,116 Speaker 1: to make those people. I think I don't think they 414 00:23:08,116 --> 00:23:10,876 Speaker 1: want to alienate those people because they are probably the 415 00:23:10,956 --> 00:23:14,396 Speaker 1: most likely to use the kind of services that are 416 00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:18,116 Speaker 1: going to package you know, their children in the best 417 00:23:18,116 --> 00:23:22,156 Speaker 1: way possible, and especially if they are people who are 418 00:23:22,196 --> 00:23:26,996 Speaker 1: familiar with this world and know what you know, what 419 00:23:26,996 --> 00:23:31,516 Speaker 1: what these colleges are sensibly looking for. Again, very different 420 00:23:31,556 --> 00:23:35,476 Speaker 1: from the clueless applicant from you know, Arkansas, who doesn't 421 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:37,836 Speaker 1: know a single person who has ever gone to an 422 00:23:37,836 --> 00:23:41,716 Speaker 1: Ivy League school. You know, they're able to polish up 423 00:23:41,756 --> 00:23:43,956 Speaker 1: their applications in a way. And to go back to 424 00:23:43,996 --> 00:23:48,116 Speaker 1: why the colleges don't, I think that they're It would 425 00:23:48,196 --> 00:23:50,916 Speaker 1: ruffle the feathers, or it would it would, you know, 426 00:23:51,356 --> 00:23:54,956 Speaker 1: rattle the system as it exists. I think I don't 427 00:23:54,996 --> 00:23:56,676 Speaker 1: think it would be fatal, but I think it would 428 00:23:56,716 --> 00:24:01,436 Speaker 1: be a huge change. Speaking of rattling the system, to me, 429 00:24:01,596 --> 00:24:05,076 Speaker 1: the sort of profound philosophical issue that underlies this whole 430 00:24:05,076 --> 00:24:08,916 Speaker 1: debate is merit. You know, is merit a real thing? 431 00:24:09,316 --> 00:24:12,156 Speaker 1: Is it a thing that we can actually measure? Because 432 00:24:12,276 --> 00:24:14,356 Speaker 1: we like to talk about it as though it were. 433 00:24:14,956 --> 00:24:17,396 Speaker 1: You know, who are we admitting the students who are meritorious, 434 00:24:17,396 --> 00:24:19,916 Speaker 1: who fit the criteria that we're looking for, and who 435 00:24:19,956 --> 00:24:23,356 Speaker 1: produce diversity in a in a class taken as a whole. 436 00:24:24,116 --> 00:24:28,156 Speaker 1: And if that's real, then we're talking about problems that 437 00:24:28,276 --> 00:24:30,676 Speaker 1: the margin. You know, people who who cheated the system 438 00:24:30,716 --> 00:24:33,316 Speaker 1: by pretending to have merit that they didn't have, And 439 00:24:33,476 --> 00:24:35,756 Speaker 1: we could try to fix that by prosecuting those people. 440 00:24:35,756 --> 00:24:38,156 Speaker 1: Are doing a better job of sussing out who are 441 00:24:38,196 --> 00:24:41,316 Speaker 1: the people who are overstating their their abilities and you know, 442 00:24:41,316 --> 00:24:44,076 Speaker 1: maybe remembering that if you take a prep prep course, 443 00:24:44,116 --> 00:24:46,916 Speaker 1: your test scores will be different. Those are all fixes 444 00:24:47,276 --> 00:24:50,596 Speaker 1: assuming we believe in the underlying idea of merit. But 445 00:24:50,676 --> 00:24:54,436 Speaker 1: the hard question is is merit real? Is it for real? 446 00:24:54,476 --> 00:24:55,956 Speaker 1: And I guess I want to ask you, as someone 447 00:24:55,996 --> 00:24:59,756 Speaker 1: who's been deep down inside the process, do you believe 448 00:24:59,796 --> 00:25:01,316 Speaker 1: in it? Do you believe that there is a thing 449 00:25:01,356 --> 00:25:08,276 Speaker 1: called merit that you and other admissions officers can find? Wow? 450 00:25:08,316 --> 00:25:12,956 Speaker 1: That is a really hard quest. Shit. Um, I think 451 00:25:12,996 --> 00:25:17,516 Speaker 1: at its core, yes, but I think it really requires 452 00:25:17,556 --> 00:25:22,476 Speaker 1: a few different things. Um. Number one, it really requires 453 00:25:22,596 --> 00:25:29,796 Speaker 1: I think a human, thoughtful review of each person's application. 454 00:25:31,236 --> 00:25:35,796 Speaker 1: I think it also means acknowledging that everyone has their 455 00:25:35,836 --> 00:25:39,116 Speaker 1: own subjective idea of what constitutes merit. So when you 456 00:25:39,196 --> 00:25:44,796 Speaker 1: concentrate the decision making power into one person or three people, 457 00:25:44,876 --> 00:25:47,996 Speaker 1: or whatever it is you are going to, I think 458 00:25:48,276 --> 00:25:53,956 Speaker 1: get consciously or unconsciously just a particularly a certain kind 459 00:25:53,956 --> 00:25:57,836 Speaker 1: of bias towards what is meritorious, but somewhat at odds 460 00:25:57,796 --> 00:26:00,196 Speaker 1: should just to interrupt for a second with the with 461 00:26:00,276 --> 00:26:02,716 Speaker 1: the whole idea that, yeah, exactly. I mean if merritt, 462 00:26:02,756 --> 00:26:06,036 Speaker 1: if you and I and another person you know, all 463 00:26:06,036 --> 00:26:08,756 Speaker 1: sit at a desk and we're given us three files 464 00:26:08,796 --> 00:26:11,596 Speaker 1: and we each reach a different conclusion on merit, then 465 00:26:11,636 --> 00:26:14,156 Speaker 1: that doesn't feel like merit. That seems like getting struck 466 00:26:14,196 --> 00:26:16,796 Speaker 1: by lightning, or you know, good good luck, or a 467 00:26:16,916 --> 00:26:19,116 Speaker 1: value that is open for debate, Like if we were 468 00:26:19,116 --> 00:26:21,596 Speaker 1: all asked who's attractive, we'd all have a different view 469 00:26:21,596 --> 00:26:23,756 Speaker 1: of perhaps of who is attractive. But merit is supposed 470 00:26:23,756 --> 00:26:25,756 Speaker 1: to be something that can be measured. We have tests 471 00:26:25,796 --> 00:26:29,236 Speaker 1: which are supposed to be the same test for everybody. Yeah, 472 00:26:29,596 --> 00:26:32,156 Speaker 1: but I think that that I might disagree with that. 473 00:26:32,316 --> 00:26:35,156 Speaker 1: You know, I think that you're right that we have 474 00:26:35,276 --> 00:26:39,116 Speaker 1: come to understand merit as being numbers. And this is 475 00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:41,836 Speaker 1: why people get obsessed with the essay to or else 476 00:26:41,836 --> 00:26:45,236 Speaker 1: heat and GPAs and all of this stuff, because that 477 00:26:45,316 --> 00:26:48,236 Speaker 1: feels good to us, right, Like that's something measurable. And 478 00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:50,476 Speaker 1: if the test is administered fairly, and you know, these 479 00:26:50,476 --> 00:26:52,636 Speaker 1: people have taken classes like you have, you can be 480 00:26:52,676 --> 00:26:57,476 Speaker 1: reduced to a number, which then tells everybody, compared to others, 481 00:26:58,396 --> 00:27:00,876 Speaker 1: how meritorious you are. And I believe some of these 482 00:27:01,276 --> 00:27:04,836 Speaker 1: reverse discrimination lawsuits are kind of based on this idea. 483 00:27:04,916 --> 00:27:07,436 Speaker 1: They idea is that the numbers don't lie. That's the 484 00:27:07,516 --> 00:27:10,196 Speaker 1: numbers don't lie. Um, of course we know in real 485 00:27:10,236 --> 00:27:12,236 Speaker 1: life isn't always true, but at least if they work right, 486 00:27:12,236 --> 00:27:14,196 Speaker 1: they're not supposed to lie. But I think, you know, 487 00:27:14,236 --> 00:27:16,956 Speaker 1: to go back to what we were saying earlier about 488 00:27:16,996 --> 00:27:20,556 Speaker 1: the taking the chances and looking at the context. I mean, 489 00:27:21,236 --> 00:27:25,716 Speaker 1: you know, do you look at someone who worked their 490 00:27:25,756 --> 00:27:31,396 Speaker 1: way through college? Um, do you do you evaluate that 491 00:27:31,996 --> 00:27:34,876 Speaker 1: uh in in a different way, or you know, do 492 00:27:34,916 --> 00:27:38,076 Speaker 1: you take that into account differently than from someone who 493 00:27:38,516 --> 00:27:41,996 Speaker 1: really was able to take you know, is a very 494 00:27:41,996 --> 00:27:45,036 Speaker 1: accomplished musician and was lived in New York City and 495 00:27:45,436 --> 00:27:49,116 Speaker 1: was able to, you know, take classes at Juilliard UM 496 00:27:49,276 --> 00:27:53,076 Speaker 1: and end up in you know, a symphony orchestra or something. UM. 497 00:27:53,996 --> 00:27:57,116 Speaker 1: Those are the difficult questions that you come to UM 498 00:27:57,356 --> 00:28:02,956 Speaker 1: because it's impossible to find a way to you know, 499 00:28:03,596 --> 00:28:06,236 Speaker 1: you you have to become. There is a subjectivity to 500 00:28:06,356 --> 00:28:10,036 Speaker 1: evaluating those UM because they're just not as to apples. 501 00:28:11,156 --> 00:28:15,636 Speaker 1: So your example of the Juilliard trained musician raises the 502 00:28:15,716 --> 00:28:18,636 Speaker 1: other grand issue that is in play in this college 503 00:28:18,636 --> 00:28:22,396 Speaker 1: admission scandal, and that is athletics, elite athletics, which in 504 00:28:22,436 --> 00:28:26,276 Speaker 1: its way is not unlike training at Juilliard, many long 505 00:28:26,476 --> 00:28:30,356 Speaker 1: hours of intense training the best coaches or teachers and 506 00:28:30,476 --> 00:28:34,356 Speaker 1: emerging as a as a leading competitive member of your 507 00:28:34,556 --> 00:28:37,716 Speaker 1: of your chosen extracurricular activity at sometimes at the national level. 508 00:28:38,196 --> 00:28:40,036 Speaker 1: And as we know, one of the things that that 509 00:28:40,156 --> 00:28:44,516 Speaker 1: singer did that's most scandalous is he recruited admissions officers 510 00:28:44,796 --> 00:28:52,676 Speaker 1: or senior administrators at universities including USC including Stanford, including Whisper. 511 00:28:52,716 --> 00:28:55,276 Speaker 1: Whisper because you work there and I went there Yale, 512 00:28:56,716 --> 00:29:00,156 Speaker 1: and he corrupted them or they agreed to be corrupted, 513 00:29:01,196 --> 00:29:05,996 Speaker 1: and they marked students as elite athletes deserving of recruiting 514 00:29:06,316 --> 00:29:08,436 Speaker 1: even though the students in some cases had never even 515 00:29:08,516 --> 00:29:13,476 Speaker 1: played the board. So that raises right away the problem 516 00:29:13,516 --> 00:29:18,036 Speaker 1: of whether sports should matter at all in college admissions. 517 00:29:18,396 --> 00:29:20,396 Speaker 1: And I know that, at least based on my own experience, 518 00:29:20,476 --> 00:29:23,076 Speaker 1: is a law student can't be that my basketball talents 519 00:29:23,116 --> 00:29:27,556 Speaker 1: were any factor to my admission. And based on the 520 00:29:27,556 --> 00:29:28,956 Speaker 1: other people players and I played with, some of them 521 00:29:28,956 --> 00:29:30,276 Speaker 1: were very good, but that doesn't seem like why they 522 00:29:30,276 --> 00:29:31,636 Speaker 1: got in. So I understand this is not as much 523 00:29:31,636 --> 00:29:33,836 Speaker 1: an issue in law school, but at the college level, 524 00:29:34,356 --> 00:29:39,076 Speaker 1: should elite sports be treated as a separate category of admissions? 525 00:29:40,596 --> 00:29:42,396 Speaker 1: You know, I have to be honest now, I just 526 00:29:42,556 --> 00:29:46,076 Speaker 1: don't know enough about this. And again I think that 527 00:29:46,076 --> 00:29:51,476 Speaker 1: this gets into things like the economic model on which 528 00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:55,236 Speaker 1: a lot of some institutions are based. College sports is 529 00:29:55,796 --> 00:30:00,196 Speaker 1: I think, a moneymaker at many places, and you know 530 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:07,556 Speaker 1: it could it also fosters some of that alumni you know, 531 00:30:07,636 --> 00:30:11,916 Speaker 1: connection and attachment to those institutions, which can then you know, funnel, 532 00:30:12,356 --> 00:30:15,756 Speaker 1: which then bolsters their development base for donors and stuff. 533 00:30:15,796 --> 00:30:21,476 Speaker 1: So I think it's really woven into, um, you know, 534 00:30:22,156 --> 00:30:25,796 Speaker 1: the entire system that some of these universities are built 535 00:30:25,836 --> 00:30:28,316 Speaker 1: on and I should it be. I mean, I think 536 00:30:28,756 --> 00:30:30,636 Speaker 1: certainly I have a great overview of it, and I 537 00:30:30,676 --> 00:30:33,116 Speaker 1: think you're absolutely right. Yeah. I mean again, I think 538 00:30:33,116 --> 00:30:35,756 Speaker 1: this comes to you know, these are the things that 539 00:30:35,796 --> 00:30:39,156 Speaker 1: we believe our meritorious. I mean, our culture believes, like 540 00:30:39,356 --> 00:30:41,676 Speaker 1: no one really has ever questioned that the way that 541 00:30:41,716 --> 00:30:45,036 Speaker 1: they have questions, say affirmative action, um, you know, and 542 00:30:45,076 --> 00:30:48,156 Speaker 1: I think there's been some questions on the other side 543 00:30:48,156 --> 00:30:50,876 Speaker 1: of say legacy status and stuff. But like you know, 544 00:30:50,956 --> 00:30:55,916 Speaker 1: the idea that uh, you know, athletic recruitment is a 545 00:30:55,956 --> 00:30:59,516 Speaker 1: part of college um and and can really give you 546 00:31:00,156 --> 00:31:03,156 Speaker 1: um advantage has I think has always been linked to 547 00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:08,436 Speaker 1: an idea that that developing that excellence in a sport 548 00:31:08,796 --> 00:31:12,596 Speaker 1: is is actually noteworthy. And so I tend to agree 549 00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:14,316 Speaker 1: with you that that it is noteworthy and that it 550 00:31:14,396 --> 00:31:17,036 Speaker 1: is worthy. Although it's worth noting that the Oxford and 551 00:31:17,156 --> 00:31:21,516 Speaker 1: Cambridge model from the UK is that they give zero 552 00:31:21,636 --> 00:31:25,476 Speaker 1: weight to athletics at all, and they actually still have 553 00:31:25,516 --> 00:31:27,996 Speaker 1: some elite athletes who managed to get in, but that 554 00:31:27,996 --> 00:31:29,876 Speaker 1: they don't wait at all. But admittedly that's a different 555 00:31:29,916 --> 00:31:31,996 Speaker 1: country and in a different system. But what I was 556 00:31:31,996 --> 00:31:33,836 Speaker 1: going to say, sorry, go ahead, Well, you are a 557 00:31:33,916 --> 00:31:37,436 Speaker 1: road scholar, right, I was, And the roads also places, 558 00:31:38,036 --> 00:31:40,476 Speaker 1: or at least it used to. It absolutely does, and 559 00:31:40,716 --> 00:31:43,316 Speaker 1: luckily for me, not everybody had to be had to 560 00:31:43,316 --> 00:31:45,156 Speaker 1: be an athlete. There was, you know, there there was 561 00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:49,036 Speaker 1: Corey Booker there to uh, you know, an actual an 562 00:31:49,076 --> 00:31:52,396 Speaker 1: actual division one tight end, a legitimate, legitimate player to 563 00:31:52,516 --> 00:31:55,316 Speaker 1: even out the people who who are more bookworms. But 564 00:31:55,316 --> 00:31:59,116 Speaker 1: but you know, I think that it's reasonable to weigh 565 00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:03,356 Speaker 1: athletic prowess as one element in admission. But what the 566 00:32:03,396 --> 00:32:07,276 Speaker 1: Singer scandal shows is that at a lot of colleges, 567 00:32:07,436 --> 00:32:11,636 Speaker 1: including the best colleges in the country, you could get 568 00:32:11,636 --> 00:32:14,996 Speaker 1: admitted on a totally different track. If you were an athlete, 569 00:32:15,116 --> 00:32:18,156 Speaker 1: your application did not You didn't even get admitted at 570 00:32:18,156 --> 00:32:20,716 Speaker 1: the same time, on the same day as everybody else. 571 00:32:20,956 --> 00:32:23,436 Speaker 1: There was an earlier admissions deadline, and there was a 572 00:32:23,436 --> 00:32:28,196 Speaker 1: completely parallel process where coaches were given by admissions offices, 573 00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:31,996 Speaker 1: which means by administrations a certain number of guaranteed slots. 574 00:32:32,436 --> 00:32:35,876 Speaker 1: And that's what they managed to exploit. In fact, I 575 00:32:35,956 --> 00:32:38,196 Speaker 1: think you know, one interesting question is why did people 576 00:32:38,196 --> 00:32:39,836 Speaker 1: with a million bucks to get their kids into college 577 00:32:39,876 --> 00:32:41,716 Speaker 1: not just make a million dollar donation to the college 578 00:32:41,756 --> 00:32:43,596 Speaker 1: or their choice. And I think the answer is no 579 00:32:43,756 --> 00:32:47,756 Speaker 1: college would guarantee them admissions, even for a million dollars. 580 00:32:47,876 --> 00:32:51,716 Speaker 1: But by going through this quote unt illegal side door, 581 00:32:52,116 --> 00:32:56,636 Speaker 1: they were guaranteed admissions because the coaches had admission slots 582 00:32:56,836 --> 00:32:59,316 Speaker 1: that they owned. Yeah, I mean, do you think we 583 00:32:59,356 --> 00:33:02,756 Speaker 1: could agree that that is maybe a bad idea. I mean, 584 00:33:02,796 --> 00:33:07,156 Speaker 1: it's definitely raises the question of oversight. Like so, you know, 585 00:33:07,236 --> 00:33:13,236 Speaker 1: presumably these coaches were given these slots because they alone 586 00:33:13,436 --> 00:33:18,436 Speaker 1: have the expertise to assess whether someone is the best 587 00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:23,876 Speaker 1: baseball player in the country, something that maybe the admissions 588 00:33:23,876 --> 00:33:26,236 Speaker 1: team would not be able to assess. And so if 589 00:33:26,276 --> 00:33:28,796 Speaker 1: that is the basis on which you're going to give 590 00:33:28,996 --> 00:33:32,556 Speaker 1: like a significant advantage, then you have to have somebody 591 00:33:32,596 --> 00:33:35,716 Speaker 1: in that position who can evaluate that. Just like if 592 00:33:35,516 --> 00:33:38,196 Speaker 1: if let's use music as an example, that were the 593 00:33:38,356 --> 00:33:40,916 Speaker 1: other if that were instead of sport, what were you 594 00:33:40,956 --> 00:33:43,396 Speaker 1: were doing, you would have to have somebody who understands, 595 00:33:44,316 --> 00:33:49,716 Speaker 1: you know, musical proficiency and technical ability to evaluate that. No, 596 00:33:49,876 --> 00:33:51,756 Speaker 1: I know, and you know, it's sort of interesting. We 597 00:33:51,756 --> 00:33:54,156 Speaker 1: haven't really gotten a clear sense of this, but some 598 00:33:54,236 --> 00:33:59,596 Speaker 1: of the coaches seem to have taken the money in 599 00:33:59,676 --> 00:34:03,036 Speaker 1: exchange for giving away slots to use for their programs. 600 00:34:03,436 --> 00:34:05,356 Speaker 1: So in some cases they seem to have been given 601 00:34:05,356 --> 00:34:07,916 Speaker 1: money themselves, the old fashioned form of corruption, I bribe 602 00:34:07,956 --> 00:34:09,796 Speaker 1: you to give me one of your slots. But some 603 00:34:09,836 --> 00:34:11,516 Speaker 1: of them seem to have taken a lot of the 604 00:34:11,556 --> 00:34:14,476 Speaker 1: money in the form of donations to their program. So 605 00:34:14,516 --> 00:34:16,236 Speaker 1: in a sense they were saying they probably were doing 606 00:34:16,316 --> 00:34:17,916 Speaker 1: just what you're saying. Oh, they were trying to particular 607 00:34:17,916 --> 00:34:20,356 Speaker 1: their best team, but they thought to themselves, well, I 608 00:34:20,356 --> 00:34:23,436 Speaker 1: also need equipment, right, and I also need support from 609 00:34:23,436 --> 00:34:25,396 Speaker 1: my team, So I'm going to take half a million 610 00:34:25,396 --> 00:34:28,716 Speaker 1: dollars as a donation to my program and use that 611 00:34:28,916 --> 00:34:31,156 Speaker 1: this year in lieu of a particular slot. So the 612 00:34:31,236 --> 00:34:33,916 Speaker 1: cash was also in that sense of benefit. Some of 613 00:34:33,916 --> 00:34:35,796 Speaker 1: them may really have been doing exactly what you said, 614 00:34:35,956 --> 00:34:37,436 Speaker 1: trying to put together the best team they could, but 615 00:34:37,476 --> 00:34:42,876 Speaker 1: they just weighed the cash more heavily than their particular candidate. Yeah, 616 00:34:42,916 --> 00:34:47,116 Speaker 1: and I guess this gets too. I mean, why, maybe 617 00:34:47,116 --> 00:34:48,756 Speaker 1: you know this better than me. I don't know that 618 00:34:48,796 --> 00:34:51,716 Speaker 1: we've gone to institutions where sports are the moneymaker for 619 00:34:51,756 --> 00:34:54,796 Speaker 1: the school, but I mean, you know this is again, 620 00:34:54,836 --> 00:34:58,236 Speaker 1: this is kind of all the incentives that are built up. 621 00:34:58,476 --> 00:35:01,316 Speaker 1: And I want to also just throw in here before 622 00:35:01,636 --> 00:35:04,236 Speaker 1: we run out of time, that US News is another thing. 623 00:35:04,276 --> 00:35:08,196 Speaker 1: I mean, we can ignore how incentives play a role 624 00:35:08,276 --> 00:35:12,356 Speaker 1: in how people value certain things, and then that kind 625 00:35:12,396 --> 00:35:17,756 Speaker 1: of permeates the whole system. So with US News, for example, colleges, okay, 626 00:35:18,116 --> 00:35:20,356 Speaker 1: hugely important to the life, which is most colleges and 627 00:35:20,436 --> 00:35:22,996 Speaker 1: universities in the United States, and um, you know, most 628 00:35:23,036 --> 00:35:26,796 Speaker 1: people don't realize that. I mean, the US News formula 629 00:35:27,116 --> 00:35:30,316 Speaker 1: is fairly arbitrary. They can choose to wait things at 630 00:35:30,476 --> 00:35:33,316 Speaker 1: certain things highly or not. And what they wait very 631 00:35:33,396 --> 00:35:36,756 Speaker 1: highly are l sets in GPA. Now, as we've just noted, 632 00:35:36,836 --> 00:35:39,596 Speaker 1: maybe that makes sense. Maybe those are the only objective 633 00:35:39,636 --> 00:35:42,716 Speaker 1: criteria of merit and they should be weighted. But what 634 00:35:42,716 --> 00:35:47,716 Speaker 1: what then happens is that it becomes a frenzy to 635 00:35:47,756 --> 00:35:49,996 Speaker 1: get the highest l SAT score to do, you know, 636 00:35:50,036 --> 00:35:54,116 Speaker 1: to make sure that that it disincentivises students actually from 637 00:35:54,156 --> 00:35:56,916 Speaker 1: taking harder classes because they don't want to get a 638 00:35:56,996 --> 00:36:00,916 Speaker 1: lower grade UM. And it also drives great in it 639 00:36:00,996 --> 00:36:06,276 Speaker 1: drives great inflation, UM. And it also makes it so 640 00:36:06,356 --> 00:36:10,556 Speaker 1: that many colleges and universities can take into account kind 641 00:36:10,596 --> 00:36:14,236 Speaker 1: of the full picture and take the risks on people 642 00:36:14,276 --> 00:36:17,316 Speaker 1: that are incredibly compelling, and maybe they don't feel like 643 00:36:17,356 --> 00:36:20,956 Speaker 1: the test score is truly predictive of what this person 644 00:36:21,076 --> 00:36:24,236 Speaker 1: is capable of, but it could impact their overall average, 645 00:36:24,236 --> 00:36:26,396 Speaker 1: which would then drop them two points, you know, two 646 00:36:26,396 --> 00:36:28,836 Speaker 1: slots and the rankings, and then that makes them lose money. 647 00:36:28,876 --> 00:36:31,916 Speaker 1: And I mean, all of these domino effects that happen, 648 00:36:32,036 --> 00:36:34,956 Speaker 1: and I think that that also is sort of driving 649 00:36:34,996 --> 00:36:37,236 Speaker 1: it in a way. We'd have to dissect it more 650 00:36:37,276 --> 00:36:40,356 Speaker 1: on the athletic side. But when it becomes the moneymaker 651 00:36:41,356 --> 00:36:48,076 Speaker 1: or the you know, reflection of that school's value, that's 652 00:36:48,076 --> 00:36:51,756 Speaker 1: when you start having perverse incentives and people start being 653 00:36:51,756 --> 00:36:55,036 Speaker 1: able to exploit. I mean, you're really you're really uncovering 654 00:36:55,116 --> 00:36:59,156 Speaker 1: here a whole cycle, Yeah, where the colleges and universities 655 00:36:59,196 --> 00:37:01,876 Speaker 1: want to score high on the US News ranking so 656 00:37:01,916 --> 00:37:04,756 Speaker 1: they can get the best students, so that they can 657 00:37:04,796 --> 00:37:07,556 Speaker 1: score high on the US News ranking. The students want 658 00:37:07,556 --> 00:37:08,916 Speaker 1: to do well so that they can go to the 659 00:37:09,156 --> 00:37:11,956 Speaker 1: niest US News and ranked colleges so they can get jobs, 660 00:37:12,076 --> 00:37:13,836 Speaker 1: so they can make money, so they can donate it 661 00:37:13,876 --> 00:37:15,956 Speaker 1: back to the colleges so that they can whole start 662 00:37:15,956 --> 00:37:18,916 Speaker 1: the whole process all all over again. And I guess 663 00:37:18,916 --> 00:37:22,236 Speaker 1: the question is, does this whole complicated process that is 664 00:37:22,316 --> 00:37:25,396 Speaker 1: very characteristic of the United States is it working? Is 665 00:37:25,396 --> 00:37:29,836 Speaker 1: it ultimately serving the interests of the society, which is 666 00:37:29,836 --> 00:37:33,156 Speaker 1: what it's supposed to do? And you know, what is 667 00:37:33,156 --> 00:37:35,676 Speaker 1: your what is your bottom line answer on that deep question. 668 00:37:35,916 --> 00:37:40,076 Speaker 1: I think that you know this scandal, um, and I 669 00:37:40,076 --> 00:37:42,756 Speaker 1: I can talk about law school for sure. I think 670 00:37:42,796 --> 00:37:46,276 Speaker 1: that we have started to move into an area where 671 00:37:46,276 --> 00:37:50,996 Speaker 1: it is not serving the population. And you know, just 672 00:37:51,196 --> 00:37:55,476 Speaker 1: tuition alone, the fact that you know, law school graduates 673 00:37:55,556 --> 00:38:01,236 Speaker 1: are graduating with the debt that's equivalent of a mortgage 674 00:38:02,156 --> 00:38:05,316 Speaker 1: where even the highest size, yes, and even the highest 675 00:38:05,356 --> 00:38:13,076 Speaker 1: paying law firm jobs can't sustain necessarily these uh, these debts, um, 676 00:38:13,996 --> 00:38:15,516 Speaker 1: you know. And I think that this has long term 677 00:38:15,516 --> 00:38:19,556 Speaker 1: implications for for these schools. Uh. You know. They they 678 00:38:19,636 --> 00:38:22,076 Speaker 1: make it so that students might be less likely to 679 00:38:22,116 --> 00:38:25,036 Speaker 1: give back. They might say, hey, I paid you know, 680 00:38:25,036 --> 00:38:27,276 Speaker 1: two hundred thousand dollars to go there. I don't owe 681 00:38:27,276 --> 00:38:30,956 Speaker 1: you any money anymore, um, or to to go into 682 00:38:30,956 --> 00:38:33,796 Speaker 1: profess you know, go down paths that that aren't suited 683 00:38:33,796 --> 00:38:35,796 Speaker 1: to them. I mean, you know you're there, Noah, you 684 00:38:35,836 --> 00:38:41,876 Speaker 1: see how all? Yeah? Um, and so you know, the 685 00:38:41,996 --> 00:38:46,356 Speaker 1: question is who needs to take the lead to sit 686 00:38:46,396 --> 00:38:51,396 Speaker 1: down and say this is not working and here are 687 00:38:51,396 --> 00:38:54,876 Speaker 1: the things that are really driving this off the rails, 688 00:38:54,996 --> 00:39:00,196 Speaker 1: and we are going to change it. Um. I frankly 689 00:39:00,196 --> 00:39:04,236 Speaker 1: think that that belongs to the elite schools themselves. Um, 690 00:39:04,276 --> 00:39:06,356 Speaker 1: it's the people. It's the ones at the top that 691 00:39:06,436 --> 00:39:10,036 Speaker 1: I think can afford to, for example, drop out of 692 00:39:10,036 --> 00:39:11,476 Speaker 1: the rankings and just say we're not doing we're not 693 00:39:11,556 --> 00:39:14,436 Speaker 1: playing anymore. Out of the game. Yeah, we're out of 694 00:39:14,436 --> 00:39:16,196 Speaker 1: the game. I mean, you know, if Harvard did that 695 00:39:16,236 --> 00:39:18,076 Speaker 1: and they dropped, I don't think the students would stop. 696 00:39:18,116 --> 00:39:20,236 Speaker 1: I don't think students would have stop applying to Harvard. 697 00:39:20,316 --> 00:39:24,556 Speaker 1: I really don't. Um. You know, at some point somebody 698 00:39:24,596 --> 00:39:28,356 Speaker 1: has to call the bluff. And um. You know, same 699 00:39:28,396 --> 00:39:33,396 Speaker 1: thing with with tuitions and uh, you know all of 700 00:39:33,396 --> 00:39:35,716 Speaker 1: these other incentives that are you know, we have there 701 00:39:35,716 --> 00:39:41,756 Speaker 1: are some schools that are now dropping um stardized tests. Yes, yeah, 702 00:39:41,796 --> 00:39:44,236 Speaker 1: you know, so I think we're starting to see some 703 00:39:44,356 --> 00:39:48,436 Speaker 1: movement in that direction. Um. And you know, anything like 704 00:39:48,436 --> 00:39:49,996 Speaker 1: that I mean, think about it. If if if schools drop 705 00:39:50,036 --> 00:39:52,876 Speaker 1: standardized tests there, the US news is going to have 706 00:39:52,916 --> 00:39:56,156 Speaker 1: to find another way that's true. And then the great 707 00:39:56,236 --> 00:39:58,516 Speaker 1: challenge will be when the tests are dropped, have we 708 00:39:58,556 --> 00:40:01,556 Speaker 1: made things fairer right? Or have we made it harder 709 00:40:01,676 --> 00:40:05,956 Speaker 1: for for kids like you who had great scores and 710 00:40:06,116 --> 00:40:08,316 Speaker 1: who use those scores as a signal to their colleges 711 00:40:08,396 --> 00:40:11,916 Speaker 1: and say, hey, I'm really smart, you know, and admit me, yes, exactly, 712 00:40:11,916 --> 00:40:14,156 Speaker 1: And I think that's the trade off. Trade Offs are 713 00:40:14,236 --> 00:40:17,236 Speaker 1: the name of the game. And this very very, very complicated. 714 00:40:17,316 --> 00:40:20,716 Speaker 1: I feel like we've no answers in this conversation except well, 715 00:40:20,716 --> 00:40:22,476 Speaker 1: I think you're I think you're right. But I think 716 00:40:22,596 --> 00:40:24,596 Speaker 1: this is the stage of life where we should be 717 00:40:24,636 --> 00:40:26,836 Speaker 1: asking the deep questions and we should be using a 718 00:40:26,836 --> 00:40:29,756 Speaker 1: scandal like this as a way to say, does merit work? 719 00:40:29,916 --> 00:40:33,436 Speaker 1: You know? Do these rankings help us? And asking those 720 00:40:33,476 --> 00:40:36,556 Speaker 1: questions can be the first age to trying to solve 721 00:40:36,636 --> 00:40:38,476 Speaker 1: the problem as you as you were just suggesting, and 722 00:40:38,556 --> 00:40:42,276 Speaker 1: that was going to require some experimentation. Yeah, I'm incredibly 723 00:40:42,276 --> 00:40:45,836 Speaker 1: grateful to you for your super honest and deep answers 724 00:40:45,836 --> 00:40:48,116 Speaker 1: and explanations. Josh, I thank you so so much, Matt. 725 00:40:48,196 --> 00:40:50,596 Speaker 1: Thank you. This was a great conversation and I appreciate 726 00:40:50,596 --> 00:40:59,836 Speaker 1: you having me on. I live my whole life surrounded 727 00:40:59,876 --> 00:41:03,396 Speaker 1: by the idea of merit. I teach students. They seem great. 728 00:41:03,756 --> 00:41:06,716 Speaker 1: I have colleagues, they seem great. So it's natural to 729 00:41:06,796 --> 00:41:09,996 Speaker 1: assume that we're surrounded by the best people the heart 730 00:41:10,076 --> 00:41:12,356 Speaker 1: is working the ones who deserve to be there the most. 731 00:41:13,196 --> 00:41:15,756 Speaker 1: The thing about this college admission scandal is it makes 732 00:41:15,756 --> 00:41:20,476 Speaker 1: you stop and ask is merit for real? Just the 733 00:41:20,516 --> 00:41:22,796 Speaker 1: fact that people seem good doesn't mean that there aren't 734 00:41:22,836 --> 00:41:25,276 Speaker 1: other people out there who are as good, or maybe 735 00:41:25,316 --> 00:41:29,636 Speaker 1: actually better, And the playing field that we imagine existing 736 00:41:29,676 --> 00:41:33,036 Speaker 1: to choose the people who are most meritorious probably isn't 737 00:41:33,036 --> 00:41:35,556 Speaker 1: fair in the first place. It's not just a question 738 00:41:35,556 --> 00:41:37,636 Speaker 1: of how rich people cheated to get their kids into 739 00:41:37,676 --> 00:41:41,156 Speaker 1: fancy schools. It's the question, at the more basic level 740 00:41:41,636 --> 00:41:45,436 Speaker 1: of why the system overall favors people who are well 741 00:41:45,476 --> 00:41:48,636 Speaker 1: off over people who start with less means and might 742 00:41:48,716 --> 00:41:53,596 Speaker 1: actually be more talented. Maybe the system just doesn't produce 743 00:41:53,636 --> 00:41:57,156 Speaker 1: the merit that we imagine that it does. On top 744 00:41:57,196 --> 00:41:59,956 Speaker 1: of that, I have the strong feeling that we have 745 00:42:00,076 --> 00:42:04,036 Speaker 1: not heard the last of this case. Are these all 746 00:42:04,076 --> 00:42:07,116 Speaker 1: the people that the FBI has on tape, cheating and 747 00:42:07,236 --> 00:42:09,836 Speaker 1: lying and scheming to get their kids into Nancy schools? 748 00:42:10,356 --> 00:42:15,876 Speaker 1: I seriously doubt it. Deep Background is brought to you 749 00:42:15,916 --> 00:42:19,036 Speaker 1: by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Gane Coott, with 750 00:42:19,116 --> 00:42:23,076 Speaker 1: engineering by Jason Gambrell and Jason Roskowski. Our showrunner is 751 00:42:23,076 --> 00:42:26,356 Speaker 1: Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music is composed by Luis GERA 752 00:42:26,676 --> 00:42:30,156 Speaker 1: special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, 753 00:42:30,196 --> 00:42:32,996 Speaker 1: and Mia Lobel. I'm Noah Feldman. You can follow me 754 00:42:32,996 --> 00:42:36,596 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Noah R Feldman. This is Deep Background