WEBVTT - Send in the Clones 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.240 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:15.360 Forward Thinking. Hey everyone, and welcome to Forward Thinking, the 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:17.520 podcast that looks at the future and says, I am 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:19.240 he as you or he as you are me, and 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:22.440 we are all together. I'm Jonathan Strickland and I'm Joe McCormick. 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.520 And Lauren is not with us today. She is off 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:27.920 today we're recording without her, but don't worry, She'll be 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:32.160 back for future episodes. And today we wanted to talk about, well, 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:34.240 you know, we've we've started a couple of episodes talking 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:36.680 about movies, and I had one I wanted to tell 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.160 you about movies have all the best ideas about the future. Well, 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.240 often you get movies that are science fiction where people 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:45.400 are you know, they have to think about the future. 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.600 That's kind of what the whole environment of the film 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:51.440 is set in. So I wanted to talk about a 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:56.720 great movie, Parts the Clonus Horror. Parts of the Clonus Horror, 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:00.520 which of one of those wonderful films featured on Mystery 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:04.000 Science Theater three thousands, and I full disclosure, that's how 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.280 I first saw Parts of the Clonus Horror was the 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:10.319 MST three k riffing of that film. But the premise 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.080 of that film was one of those science fiction horror 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.360 premises that you can you can easily imagine. I mean, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.720 there's as technology has developed over time, there are certain 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.840 ethical questions have arisen, things like, you know, should we 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:25.680 give robots rights? We talked about that in the previous episode. 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:27.880 Well parts of the clonus Hard took a different approach. 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.959 It said, let's assume that we perfect cloning, so we 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.320 can make perfect clone copies of other creatures, to the 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.119 point where we can even age them appropriately so that 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:45.080 they are of a particular size, say to be like 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.800 attractive actors from the nineteen seventies in southern California. You're 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:54.080 being really generous with attractive but yes, so uh But anyway, 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.160 the purpose of this would not be so that we 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:01.800 could you know, copy the best and brightest so that 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.400 we have twice as many of them. Not like that. No, 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.919 the idea is more about wealthy and powerful people wanting 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:11.400 to have a kind of a life insurance policy where 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.160 if they if they need a new organ, they can 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.600 just harvest one from their clone, because they'll be identical 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.720 to the person who needs the donation. You know, it 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.800 just all comes back to Oregon harvest. Yeah, just because 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.480 it comes down to organ roads lead to stealing people's organs. 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.480 When it gets to the future, these poor clones waking 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:34.680 up in a bathtub somewhere and it's full of ice 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.720 and on written on the mirrors, go to a doctor. Well, 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.640 I think I don't recall exactly. I think the movie 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.399 implies that they are just put you know, they're they're 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.480 they're harvested for whatever parts are needed, and then they're destroyed. 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:51.840 And although in the movie, within the the the cloness 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:57.800 community in the movie they call it going to America, 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.320 and also the general public in the film is unaware 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.679 of this, this entire program, it's something that only the 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.360 very rich and powerful have access to. So it's another 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.480 it's a social divide as well as a horror story 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.919 because it's the idea of this, this elite cast of 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.600 people who are very wealthy or very politically influential have 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.520 access to. Well, yeah, that's There are different kinds of 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:25.680 of negative future depictions, right, there's the conspiracy depiction versus 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.520 the dystopian. Both of them are in this this particular film, 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:34.800 so not necessarily executed perfectly But what's also interesting is that, 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.240 you know, in two thousand five a movie came out 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.760 called The Island and UH didn't see it either, had 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:44.120 you and McGregor in it and Scarlett Johanson. But anyway, 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:46.200 so the film came out. I remember seeing the preview 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:48.160 for the movie, and as soon as I saw the preview, 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.520 I thought, Huh, this looks like it's an oregan harvesting 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:55.560 clone story a lot like Clonus the you know, are 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.840 parts of the closes? Yeah, exactly, I'm just gonna horror 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.440 Clonus parts parts the Clone Is Horror, And I thought, wow, 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:04.440 it seems really similar. And I was not the only one. 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.600 The producers of Parts of The Clone Is Horror end 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.160 up suing DreamWorks, which was the studio behind The Island. 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.320 Uh that eventually settled out of court, So I was 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:15.600 not the only person to think that it was a 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:19.680 very similar premise. So this kind of late leads us 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.920 to a discussion about cloning. Is this the future? Just 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:27.359 straight up, John, No, it makes no sense. No, no, 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.279 because there are better ways. But let's let's talk about 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:35.520 what cloning is and why we wouldn't have a community 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.200 of replicas of ourselves. So that we could just go 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.360 in and we keep them nice and stupid. Okay, well 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.000 let me say what I think cloning is based on 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.080 the movies. Okay, it's where you go into a big 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.320 room full of machines that go bleep bleep boopp and 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.600 they scan you. Right, so they like like a like 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.080 a laser kind of thing, moves over your body, right, 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:58.800 and then there's a machine next to you. It looks 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:00.880 like a big like meat freezer. Yeah, and then the 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.599 door opens and a copy of you steps out of 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.440 it that's the same age you are and looks just 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:10.200 like you, and then tries to steal your identity and 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.440 you're locked into a struggle to the death with your 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:17.000 evil twins. Uh. You know, is that basically correct? That 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:20.599 is basically as wrong as it possibly could be. Yes, 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:24.040 it turns out cloning is not anything like that. So 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:26.960 what does cloning actually mean to a scientist? There are 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.960 three different types of cloning to a scientist. Okay, so 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:34.160 you've got you've got embryo cloning, which is essentially that's 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.279 what happens in nature when we see people who are twins, 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:42.120 identical twins, or triplets, or any any variation thereof that's 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:46.720 embryonic cloning. That's just the natural cloning. So in other words, 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:48.720 what happens with that case is that you have an 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.640 embryo that forms some cells may split off from that 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.240 embryo and form another viable embryo. Both of them end 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.960 up growing into babies and are eventually born. Twins are 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.279 essentially clones. They are genetically identical, they have the same DNA. 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.440 You know. Something that's interesting, though, is that even monozygotic 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.080 twins who are copied from exactly the same chromosomes don't 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.120 end up exactly the same. That's true. That's true. That 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:15.400 which kind of tells you that there are lots of 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.719 different factors that go into determining what makes a person 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.719 a person. It's not just your DNA. Also, you could 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:25.640 argue it's not just your environment. It's a much more 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:29.280 complex issue, right, So that's that's the first one. Then 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:33.039 there's reproductive cloning. Now, reproductive cloning means you're trying to 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:37.080 reproduce a particular organism. So, Joe, if I took like 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:39.800 a whole organism, yeah, like you, Like, if I wanted 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.760 to clone you, that would be reproductive cloning. I would 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.479 end up taking one of your cells, and I would 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.760 remove the nucleus from that cell. And I wouldn't by 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:53.120 that time the pain has already passed. But you know 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:55.760 it's it's the semantic cell. I would take a semantic 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:57.960 cell from your body. I would take the nucleus out 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.440 of the semantic cell. I would take an egg cell 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.560 where the nucleus had already been removed. I would implant 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.560 the eggs cell with the nucleus of the semantic cell 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:09.240 I took from you, and then I would stimulate the 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:11.880 eggs cell so that it would end up developing into 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.920 an embryo, which would eventually be implanted into some sort 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:19.280 of gestation surrogate, so a woman who would be willing 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.960 to carry a baby to term. The baby would be born, 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:24.920 and that would be the clone of you, Joe. So 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:27.720 you don't step out of like a freezer full of 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.840 dried eyes. No, that would not happen you. You are 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:34.960 literally born just like other organisms are born. Well, yeah, 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.440 the clone would be born just like any other organism. Now, 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:41.000 although there are definitely some issues which will will chat 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:42.640 about as well, but I can go ahead and go 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.360 into a little bit of it. Uh turns out that 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.880 most clones tend to have a shorter lifespan than the 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:53.400 animal that they were cloned from, and also they tend 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:58.560 to be prone to genetic issues. So it's because they're 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.320 not you know, it's not the same thing is as twins, 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:04.680 you're taking a nucleus from an adult animal and then 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.000 or adult organism I guess I should say, and then 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.800 using that to create a new organism. There can be 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:12.880 some issues that develop out of that where you have 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.600 some pretty severe genetic problems down the line. Now I 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.760 really don't know what causes that is that is that 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.720 sort of the way that over time, as you become 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:27.200 an adult, you accumulate mutations and genetic like a little 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.000 screw ups that happened to your genes. That's part of it. 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.880 The fact that telomeres are getting shorter and shorter, and 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.240 you know, they're not regenerating over time. There's there are 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:39.240 a lot of different reasons why this is a case. 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.760 It's one of the reasons why it's considered to be 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.720 and a very ethical gray area in science and most 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.880 scientists I think maybe I shouldn't even say most many 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:53.600 scientists think that reproductive cloning is not a very ethical, 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:59.200 uh pursuit. Okay, So reproductive cloning, is this just like 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.400 in uh, you know, let's say, what if kind of thing. Now, 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:05.439 this is something that we've done. Dolly the Sheep. You 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.719 heard of Dolly the Sheep. Dolly the Sheep was a 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.400 big fan of Dolly. Dolly. Yeah, Dolly the Sheep was 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:16.439 a clone. So we have had evidence, I mean, the 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:20.839 scientists have made clones of organisms, complex organisms, and in fact, 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:22.960 cloning is again something that we see in the animal 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.520 world that happens like on simple organisms do it themselves? 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.280 Right with something that we're talking about induced in the 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.840 laboratory that we have evidence of that, there aren't that 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:37.440 many examples because again, uh, the there are some ethical 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.960 issues where we talk about how if the animal that 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:45.240 is produced the clone has these genetic issues or has 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:49.280 a shorter lifespan there, Yeah, is it fair? Is it? 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.400 Is it? You know, if they're born into a quality 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.840 of life that is automatically lower than animals that are 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.880 just naturally reproducing, then is that kind Isn't that cruel? 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:01.520 And so there are a lot of questions there and 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:03.839 as far as it goes with humans, hasn't been done 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.200 at all because the ethical questions there are way way 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.040 more complicated, and we'll get into some of them because 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:11.920 you have to. You have to talk about it. And 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.679 when you're talking about cloning, the third type of cloning, 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.959 and this is the type that would really play into 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:22.920 any kind of approach to creating organs for transplants, is 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:28.400 called therapeutic cloning. Sounds real friendly. Therapeutic cloning is well, 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.880 on the surface, it's friendly in the sense that instead 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.480 of trying to create a clone of a person, like 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.680 a reproduction of the person. So instead of me trying 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:41.840 to clone you, Joe, and then waiting, you know, twenty 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:43.800 years for the clone to grow up and not for 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:45.720 you to be able to cut that sucker open and 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:49.120 harvest all his juicy organs for yourself. Uh, instead of 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.680 doing that, I would end up taking again a semantic 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:56.480 cell from you and harvesting the nucleus from that semantic cell, 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.560 putting it into an egg cell that had been Uh, 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:03.040 it's own nucleus has been removed, already stimulating it just 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.280 as I would if it were reproductive cloning. But then 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.960 once it becomes an embryo, it starts to produce stem cells. Okay, 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:13.960 And that's where we started getting into the gray ethical 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.720 area again, because those stem cells. Stem cells are cells 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:21.240 that haven't differentiated yet. They can differentiate into other types 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:25.880 of cells, and cells have different levels of potency. Potency 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.320 kind of describes how many different types of cells the 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.840 stem cell could eventually develop into. Um So you know, 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.400 some are very much limited in what they can develop 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:41.120 into and some are have have a much larger spectrum 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:44.960 that they can develop into. So plura potent stem cells, 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.520 that's the kind that we really want to get because 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.719 they have the greatest variety of cells they can develop into, 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:55.000 which means that from this one sort of basic ingredient, 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:59.440 you can make lots of different stuff. Renaissance cells, yeah, 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.600 they can, they can do all sorts of things. Now 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.200 once they differentiate, obviously that's the form they take. They 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.760 don't transform or anything like hard take the form of 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:11.960 a liver that doesn't work. So it would be so 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.840 so working with the stem cells, scientists could end up 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.199 manipulating them so that they develop into specific types of tissue. 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.360 And then now that doesn't help you out just immediately 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:26.200 either if I just had a massive cells that developed 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.520 into heart tissue but weren't in the shape of a heart, 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:30.880 that wouldn't do you any good sounds like you need 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:34.360 some kind of scaffolding. Yeah, you would absolutely need to 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.640 have some sort of of scaffolding or or you know, 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:41.439 some sort of structure to put this material up against 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.959 so that it forms into the right shape. So it's 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:45.720 not just made of the right stuff, but it's in 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.880 the right shape to do the job it needs to do. So, Uh, 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.200 there are different ways that doctors and engineers are looking 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.920 into creating that. Sometimes they just will um kind of 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:02.640 build a model lung onto some scaffolding. And there's also 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.280 been some interesting developments in three D printing. We've talked 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:07.920 about that in the past two using three D printers 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.480 to actually print an organ, where it's printing it layer 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.800 by layer of cells into the right kind of shape 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.240 so that you end up with this finished organ. The 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.319 downside is when you get a printer jam, it's the grossest, 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:26.320 it's not pleasant. No, But so you know, I said 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.400 it was an ethical gray area, and the reason for 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:31.400 that is that when you extract these stem cells, the 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.319 embryo is no longer viable a right, So, uh, if 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.240 I'm creating a clone of you, Joe, not to reproduce, 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:41.360 but to just get so I can get the kind 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.120 of cells I need to develop whatever organized I want. 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:48.040 There's no way for that embryo to become another person, 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.960 and you've taken its blueprints, right, and so that's a uh, 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:53.960 that's you know, that's one of those ethical issues. There 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:57.360 are people who feel that once you reach the embryonic stage, 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:01.280 then that's human life and to do anything to harm 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.760 that human life, even if you were creating that embryo 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:08.160 with the express purpose of being able to develop organs 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.480 for someone who needs a transplant, uh, that is wrong. 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.440 And so there, you know, and it's definitely a gray area. Well, 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.360 there's probably there's some middle ground too. Right, It's not 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.480 just like you know, either you think that's totally fine 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.200 or you think that that's equivalent to murder. You might 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:25.480 think that like, well, you know, there's some reason to 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:27.680 not want to do that if we don't have to write, 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.200 if there's some other approach we can do to to 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.720 do this without having to to create the potential and 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.680 then extinguish that potential for human life. Now, what about 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.240 adult stem cells. Now, adult stem cells have a lot 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:45.400 of possibilities. They are that you know, you can I 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:47.680 would mean not from an embryo. Right, you can get 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.280 an adult stem cell from you like I could. I 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.680 could get adult stem cells from you, Joe. And but 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.600 the the issue there is that adult stem cells tend 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.440 to not be they don't have as much potency. In 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.480 other words, they are more limited in the types of 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:06.080 tissues they can become. Uh. There are scientists who are 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.440 working with them to see if they can expand that, 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.640 and there's been some promising research on that. So maybe 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.000 in the future we get around that that issue and 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:15.840 it's not an issue at all anymore, which would be 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.120 fantastic because now we don't even have to have cloning 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.680 as part of the picture because this doesn't involve cloning. 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.520 This involves taking stem cells directly so that you can 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:28.240 end up creating whatever, you know, tissue you need. So 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:30.040 cloning is out of the picture, which is why I'm 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.080 not going to talk about it anymore, because this is 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.200 an episode about cloning. Joe and I refused to be 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:38.560 taken off on your non cloning tangent uh as fascinating 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:44.440 as the adult stem cell banality. Yeah, so let's talk 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.560 a little bit more about cloning. There's um some been 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.240 some interesting experiments done. There was one that I was 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:56.040 reading about where scientists were taking um mice that had Parkinson's. Essentially, 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.200 they had a condition that's akin to Parkinson's and people, 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:04.000 and they were symptomatic, you know, they showed the symptoms 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.760 of the condition, and the scientists ended up using a 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:12.440 cloning technology to create new neurons cells and then ended 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.800 up surgically and planning those cells into the mice and 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:20.280 they started showing signs of recovery. So there is some, uh, 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.120 some promising evidence that cloning, even if if we're not 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:26.920 talking about creating full organs for organ transplant, could be 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.680 used to help with some very serious illnesses and conditions 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:32.760 that we don't have a full handle on yet. Now, 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:36.000 keep in mind there are other avenues to exploring options 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:39.960 to treat these illnesses and conditions, like genetic study. But 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.960 it's it's always great to see multiple disciplines concentrating on 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.240 the same problem because you are increasing your chances of 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.760 getting a solution to that problem. So, whether it comes 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.800 through cloning or genetic modification or even some other avenue, 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.320 it's good that we have multiple ways of coming at 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:01.560 this issue. Uh, they're all so some other problems that 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.240 we can talk about the of course, the biggest one 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.760 is this ethical issue where we've got people disagreeing about, 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.199 you know, the ethics of using embryos in order to 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:14.280 get stem cells to create these organs. One side the 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:18.360 argument is that, look, a lot of people need organ transplants, 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.359 so uh, there's back in. We have this article on 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:26.400 how stuff Works about using therapeutic cloning for organ transplants. 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.360 It's a great article. Kristen Conger wrote it. Highly recommend 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.560 you go and check that out. Yeah. She she's a 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.840 great writer. So how stuff Works dot com. Just search 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.560 therapeutic cloning and it pops right up. It's a really 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.879 good read. But one of the facts that she cites 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.439 is that in two thousand eight, i think it was, 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.440 there were ninety nine thousand people on a waiting list 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.560 to get a transplant, whereas in two thousand seven the 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.119 number of actual transplants performed was somewhere around twenty six thousand. 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.760 So twenty six thod people actually got transplants, nine thousand 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.520 people are on the waiting list. Clearly, there's a supply 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.520 and demand problem here, right. We don't have enough organs 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:06.520 for the people who need organs, and you know, some 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:10.320 organs obviously can be donated from one living person to 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.080 another and both people can remain living. That's great, but 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:16.760 there's only a few of those, like you know, a 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.800 kidney or doing a partial liver transplant or something like that. 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.080 But you know there are other other organs where that 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.520 clearly is not an option. So being able to create 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:30.840 organs from your same kind of tissue UH would be 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.840 really really beneficial. Obviously, Like if I'm able to create 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:39.120 an organ Joe from your d n A so that 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.480 it is as compatible with you as I can possibly 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:46.000 make it, then the UH, the chances of your body 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:50.240 rejecting that are decreased significantly. They're never zero, but they 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:52.679 are decreased much more than they would be if I 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.680 just found someone who is a suitable donor. But then 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.119 you know, you run the risk of your body rejecting 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.719 the organ. So that's one reason why cloning is is 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:08.200 at such a a hot area of study, because it 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:11.879 could go really far to alleviating this problem we have 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.440 where the number of people who need transplants far out 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.160 number the folks that the actual supply of organs, and 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.560 out of the organs that are available, there's never a 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.200 guarantee that that organ is going to be accepted by 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:32.240 the body. So being able to address both of those 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:36.280 issues at once is huge. Alright, So this is why 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.159 I say that the uh, the whole parts of the 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.840 clone is horror thing that for real. No, it's totally 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:45.199 not real. I mean, why would you why would they 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.800 make that up? Well, I mean, first of all, first 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.560 of all, the technology wasn't as developed back then. Second 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:52.280 of all, science fiction often, I don't know if you 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.639 get this, Joe, but science fiction often is going to 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:59.160 address actual like social and cultural problems, and they use 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.840 science fiction as a vehicle to address them without necessarily 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.520 worrying about if the science itself is solid. Well, one 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:07.440 thing that is worth pointing out is that there's a 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:10.800 lot of fear about cloning out there. Sure, people who um, 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.879 and I don't necessarily blame them for this, Like, if 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:16.119 you don't know a whole lot about it, it sounds 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.320 pretty scary. Well, even if you know a lot about it, 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:20.760 you still sit there. And I mean, if someone were 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:22.439 to come up to you and say, this isn't natural, 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.679 it's hard to argue that. Although you could point at 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.399 nature and say, look, in nature, we have examples of 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:32.600 cloning you've got very simple organisms that that's how they reproduce. 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.760 You know, it's this it's this cloning kind of mechanism. 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:40.000 But pouring that over to more complex organisms gets a 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.000 little complicated. Even if you were to go so far 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:44.240 as to say, look, you wouldn't go up to a 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.879 woman who has twins and say to her you're a 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:50.040 bad mother because what you did was unnatural, because it's ludicrous. 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:55.960 That's totally not the case. Totally decision, because that's how 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.159 that works, right Joe. It's a good thing. Lauren's not 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.840 here to correct this, right. Um. Anyway, it's it's you know, 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:05.440 that's right, you pressed the twins button. I guess that's 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.000 how that works. I don't know. I don't have kids. Um. Yeah, 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.000 the the obviously we're having a lot of fun here, 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:13.640 but the the important part of this that, yeah, there 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:17.560 are people who feel that the the unnatural element to cloning, 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:22.560 uh is a big problem. It may go against not 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.920 you know, not only whatever ethic old views they have, 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.040 but if they have certain religious views, it may go 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:31.680 against their religious views. And you know, you can't just um, 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.399 I mean you could, but you shouldn't just discount people's 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:38.960 beliefs when you're when you're pursuing uh, you know, solutions, 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:40.240 what you have to do is be able to have 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:43.760 a conversation about it and really come to an agreement 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:46.840 among as many parties as you possibly can on what 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:49.760 is and isn't ethical. Well, of course, I mean science 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:51.919 is sort of made of facts, but it lives in 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.879 a world of values, exactly right, So we have to 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:57.800 be able to balance the that out so that we 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:02.239 can make meaningful use of what knowledge we gain. And 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:04.040 so in this case, it's one of those things where 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:07.240 I think if we are able to get solutions that 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:10.560 use adult stem cells to work as well, yeah, that 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:12.440 then we don't have to worry about the cloning issue 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:15.240