1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. Today we're 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: going to talk about a pair of sisters who, along 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: with their other sisters and their cousins, get a lot 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: of comparisons to whatever influencer slash media celebrity is making 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: the most headlines at any given moment. Like over the 8 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: past few years, I've seen a lot of people call 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: them the seventeenth century Kardashians. They are Hortense and Marie Mancini, 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: and they tried to make a place for themselves in 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: the seventeenth century in Europe, really defying all kinds of 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: conventions along the way. We mentioned them extremely briefly, like 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: just a couple of sentences way back when we interviewed 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: Jason poor Rath about his book and website. Were acted princesses. 15 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: So they've had not even like a six impossible episodes 16 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: level of exploration. It just really is just like a paragraph. 17 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: A thing to note upfront with this episode is that 18 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: I love a lot of these two women's stories. There 19 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: are big chunks of their lives that are a really 20 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: wild ride, and they sound full of adventure and daring 21 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: and writing memoirs and hosting salons and becoming the favorites 22 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: of various monarchs. But really a lot of this was 23 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: also happening as they were trying to get away from 24 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: their husbands, both of whom were controlling and abusive and 25 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: just frightening. And this was all happening in an era 26 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: when women just really didn't have the right to get 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: a divorce from a bad marriage. So I can see 28 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: how just that whole setup would be very troubling two people. 29 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: We're also going to talk a little bit about some 30 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: pregnancy loss, and there are some very young marriages in 31 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: the story, even to the point of seeming inordinately young 32 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: given the time period. This is a headset. So Hortense 33 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: and Marie Mancini were two of the women known as 34 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: the Mazarinets. They were the nieces of Cardinal Jules Main, 35 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: chief minister of France, so we need to talk a 36 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: little bit about him to set the stage. He was 37 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: born Julio Mazzarini in Naples in sixteen o two, and 38 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: he changed his name after moving to France, where he 39 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: became an advisor and eventually chief minister to King Louis. 40 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: In sixteen forty one, Mazarin was named a cardinal and 41 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: he was one of the people present at the baptism 42 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: of the dauphin the future King Louis the fourteenth, who 43 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: of course also became known as the Son. King Louis 44 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: died in sixteen forty three. That was when Louis fourt 45 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: was still a child, and the young king's mother and 46 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: of Austria became his regent. She and Mazarin did not 47 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: initially get along. There was some butting of heads, but 48 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: he was so charming and persuasive they eventually became very close, 49 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: so close that there were rumors that the two of 50 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: them were secretly married. Now there is a whole swath 51 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: of history that we're kind of skipping over here, including 52 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: the Thirty Years War and Mazarin being exiled for a while, 53 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: and a series of civil wars in France known as 54 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: the Frond. But eventually Mazarin became one of the most 55 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: powerful people in France, which itself was one of the 56 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: most powerful countries in Europe. He had also become extremely wealthy, 57 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: with money and titles and land to pass down to 58 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: an Air. He had no children of his own, though 59 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: his one surviving nephew had a reputation as an irresponsible libertine, 60 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: so Mazarin did not think that this would be a 61 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: great candidate for his successor. So he really focused on 62 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: his seven nieces, moving all of them from what's now 63 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: Italy to France and managing their educations to make sure 64 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: that they would be witty and cultured and personable able 65 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: to fit into French society. And then he arranged advantageous 66 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: marriages for all of them to build a legacy for himself. 67 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:25,239 Speaker 1: That way. Five of Mazzarin's nieces who were the daughters 68 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: of Hieronima and Lorenzo Mancini, That included Hortense and Marie, 69 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: who were going to come back to you. Their sister 70 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: lau Victoire, married Louis de Vendome, Duc de Mercoeur, who 71 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: was King Henry the Fourth's grandson. Sadly, she died at 72 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: the age of twenty, shortly after giving birth to their 73 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: third son. Another sister, olymp married Eugene Maurice of Savoy 74 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: Comte Sisson. The youngest mancini sister, Marie Anne, married good 75 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: Froy Maurice de Latour du Verne, Duke of Bouillon. Mezzarina's 76 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: two other nieces were the two daughters of Girolamo Martinazzi 77 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: and Laura Margharita Mazzarini. They were Anne Marie, who married 78 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: Armand de Bourbon, Prince of Conti, and Laura, who married Alfonse, 79 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: the fourth dest Duke of Modena. In addition to Hortense 80 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: and Marie, some of these women wound up being famous 81 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: and even notorious in their own ways. There were court 82 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: scandals and affairs with kings, and, in the case of 83 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: Our Lamp and Mary Anne Mancini, allegations of poisoning people 84 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: during the Affair of the Poisons. As its name suggests, 85 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: the Affair of the Poisons involved poisonings and alleged poisonings, 86 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: and allegations of people using black magic and love potions 87 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,919 Speaker 1: to try to sway the king. Previous hosts of the 88 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: show did an episode on this. It came out on 89 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: January nineteenthn We're not running this one as a Saturday 90 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: Classic because it's in the middle of a series that 91 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: they did on the House of Bourbon, and it builds 92 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: on the previous episodes that they had released over the 93 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: prior couple of weeks. It's just a little bit more 94 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: in medius race than we would generally try to do. 95 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: I think you can follow it. It just was a 96 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: little like it's not quite a standalone right, right, so 97 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: we didn't want to stick it into the feed by itself. 98 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: Marie Mancini was born Anna Maria Mancini on August sixteen 99 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: thirty nine. Her younger sister, Hortense, was born or Tensia 100 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: Mancini on June six, sixty six. In spite of the 101 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,799 Speaker 1: seven year gap in their ages, these two sisters became 102 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: very close. In sixteen fifty four, when Marie was fifteen 103 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: and Hortense was eight, their caregivers judged them as being 104 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: ready to start making their way into French society, but 105 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: when Mazzarin met with them, he disagreed with that assessment, 106 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: and he sent them to a convent together for another 107 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: eighteen months for further study and refinement, just in case 108 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: anyone is wondering, why are you not saying her name 109 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: as she might have said it in French. She eventually 110 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: moved to Britain and everybody knew her his Hortense, and 111 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: it seemed weird to change pronunciations part within the episode. 112 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: Neither of these sisters was considered to be particularly exceptional 113 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: when they were very young. In her younger years, Marie 114 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: was described as awkward and uncooperative, while Hortense was pretty 115 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: and charming, but also described in terms like apathetic and insignificant. 116 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: Seventeenth century French writer Madame de Lafayette wrote of Hortense quote, 117 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: she was not only the most beautiful of the cardinals nieces, 118 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: but she was the most beautiful of all the court beauties. 119 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: Had she been gifted with more intelligence and a greater 120 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: vivacity of manner, she would have been perfect. Not that 121 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: everyone considered that a weak point for her, for many 122 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: people found her careless attitude and languid manner a distinct 123 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: a tray action. Once they got to court, Marie caught 124 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: the eye of one particular man, the King Louis four, 125 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: with the two teens becoming deeply devoted to one another. 126 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: So this might sound like a pretty great development, considering 127 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: that Cardinal Mazarin was trying to marry his nieces to 128 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: high ranking men. Marie's father was a baron, so marrying 129 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: the king would have been an enormous step up, But 130 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: Louis needed to marry royalty, ideally someone who could solidify 131 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: an alliance between France and another powerful country. My sixteen 132 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: fifty nine, when the king was twenty and Marie was nineteen, 133 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: he was begging to be allowed to marry her, and 134 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: meanwhile his mother and her uncle were working to separate them. 135 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: Marie was finally sent away from court and the company 136 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: of her sister's hortense and mary Anne. Reportedly, the last 137 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: thing she said to him was quote, Sire, I am 138 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: leaving you to weep, and you are king. In spite 139 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: of efforts to keep them apart, Louis and Marie kept 140 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: up a continual secret correspondence, including sending one another gifts. 141 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: One of these gifts was a puppy sent from Louis 142 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: to Marie with a collar that said I belonged to Marie. 143 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: That would have been pretty hard to keep secret. Yeah, 144 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: I just gonna keep a puppy secret from everybody in 145 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: the ends. Marriage was arranged between King Louis the fourteenth 146 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: of France and Maria Teresa and Fonta of Spain and 147 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: Archduchess of Austria. Their marriage was part of the piece 148 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: of the Pyrenees, which ended the Franco Spanish War, Louis 149 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: managed to arrange a brief visit to Marie on his 150 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: way to make the final marriage negotiations, and during this 151 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: visit the two of them had a bunch of very sad, 152 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: apologetic like teen romance conversations, most of them happening in 153 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: front of her sister Horton's. Then, after Louis was married, 154 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: Marie and Hortense followed a process that was outlined in 155 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: Ovid's Cures for Love, to ritually get rid of anything 156 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: that might remind her of him or otherwise soothe her heartbreak. Meanwhile, 157 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: Mazarin was working on arranging a marriage for Marie, not 158 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: just to try to put a final end to her 159 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: feelings of the king, but also because his own health 160 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: was declining and he wanted to make sure all of 161 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: his nieces were settled before he died. Marie's marriage contract 162 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: to Italian Prince Lorenzo and no Frio Colonna was signed 163 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: on February sixteen sixty one. Hortense was married very soon after. 164 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: Like her sister, she had already captured the interest of 165 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: someone much more powerful than she or her family, and 166 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: that was Charles, the second of England at the time, 167 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: though he was not on the throne of England. He 168 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: was in exile in France, having fled England during the 169 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: English Civil Wars. Charles actually proposed to Hortense, but unlike 170 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: her sister and Louis the fourteen the issue wasn't that 171 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: Charles really needed to make a royal marriage alliance. It 172 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: was that Cardinal Mazarin did not think it was very 173 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: likely that Charles was actually going to get to return 174 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: to the British throne, so he declined this offer. He 175 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: was like, no, I'm not marrying my niece to a 176 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: deposed king, would the point of that be? However, Charles 177 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: was indeed restored as monarch in sixteen sixty, which was 178 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: not long after all of this happened. Made a mistake. Instead, 179 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: Hortense married armand Charles de Leberty, who had been considered 180 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: a suitor for some of her sisters, but who had 181 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: always been particularly interested in Hortense, like interested in a 182 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: way that multiple people commented on as disturbing and frankly inappropriate. 183 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: He had been fixated on her since she was nine, 184 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: and he was about fourteen years older than she was 185 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: when they married March first of sixteen sixty one. He 186 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: was twenty nine and she was just fourteen. Mazarin's acceptance 187 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: of this proposal seems to have been largely based on 188 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: the fact that he thought Armand would take care of 189 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: his estates and his fortune. He had decided that the 190 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: vast majority of that fortune was going to go to 191 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: whoever Horton's married, and that person would also become the 192 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: Duke of Mazarin and inherit Mazarin's other titles. Armand was 193 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: deeply religious and mature and responsible, so the Cardinal didn't 194 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: think he was likely to just fritter away his inheritance 195 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: or otherwise make an embarrassment of his legacy. Armand came 196 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: into that inheritance really quickly. Cardinal Jules Mazarin died on 197 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: March nine, sixteen sixty one, just days after the wedding. 198 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: We're going to talk more about all of this after 199 00:12:52,520 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: a sponsor break. In some ways, Marie and Hortense Mancini's 200 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: marriages were similar at first, especially in that both of 201 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: them were very focused on having babies and particularly on 202 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: trying to have a male heir. After recovering from a 203 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: serious illness, and then experiencing a miscarriage. Marie gave birth 204 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: to three sons, Felippo, Marcantonio and Carlo, who were born 205 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: in sixteen sixty three, sixteen sixty four, and sixteen sixty five. 206 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: Hortense had four babies in five years, Marie Charlotte in 207 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: sixteen sixty two, Marie Anne in sixteen sixty three, Mario 208 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: lamp in sixteen sixty five, and Paul Jules in sixteen 209 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 1: sixty six. But in other ways the early years of 210 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: their marriages were almost completely opposite from one another. It 211 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: became clear pretty much immediately that Hortense's husband, the new 212 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: Duke Mazzin, was a religious fanatic to the point of 213 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: being really irrational. He microman inged minute details of the 214 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: lives of people who lived on the land that he managed, 215 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: arguing that by doing so he was going to save 216 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: their souls, and this included things like trying to get 217 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: the milkmaids to spend less time milking because he thought 218 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: they might find it erotic, and believing that churning milk 219 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: into butter was immodest and could lead to arousal sounds 220 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: like the milkmaids are not the problem, he ordered mothers 221 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: to teach their babies too fast by refusing to nurse 222 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: them on Fridays. When a fire broke out at the palace, 223 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: he ordered the servants who put it out to be flogged, 224 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: and he flogged some of them himself because he thought 225 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: that they had interfered with the will of God. He 226 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: was also extremely possessive and controlling of virtually everything about 227 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: Hortense's life. By the terms of her uncle's will, they 228 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: were enormously wealthy as a couple, but almost none of 229 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: that wealth was exclusively hers. The only thing of material 230 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: value that was actually considered her property and only hers 231 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: was her jewelry, which her husband tried to confiscate from 232 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: her because he said that it was going to lead 233 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: her into temptation. In terms of Marie's marriage, there were 234 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: some ways that her husband, Lorenzo, could be controlling. For example, 235 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,359 Speaker 1: he blamed her pregnancy loss on her love of riding horses, 236 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: and when she got pregnant again, he forced her to 237 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: give up riding and to be carried on a sedan chair. 238 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: But unlike Hortense's husband, who tried to lock her away 239 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: and keep her from anything that might be a temptation, 240 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: Marie's husband wanted to show her off hosting masked balls 241 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: and salons and lavish galas. They became patrons of the arts, theater, 242 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: and culture, and they spent lots of time in Venice, 243 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: where they crossed paths with past podcast subject Christina of Sweden. 244 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: But Marie's relationship with her husband seems to have really 245 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: deteriorated around the time of her pregnancy with their third son. 246 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: He had an affair with a another woman who gave 247 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: birth to a child that everyone knew was his. Then 248 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: Marie had a really difficult delivery and she was worried 249 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: that she wouldn't survive another pregnancy. That combined with her 250 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: mortification over her husband's affair to lead her to try 251 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: to put an end to their physical relationship. Lorenzo, of course, 252 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: was not happy about that idea at all. Meanwhile, Hortense, 253 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: having provided her husband with a male heir, was trying 254 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: to end her physical relationship with him as well armand 255 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: had become incredibly controlling and paranoid about every conceivable thing, 256 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: all within this framework of extreme religious piety. When Hortense 257 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: started trying to avoid him, all of that got worse, 258 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: and contrary to what Cardinal Mazarin had expected Armand was 259 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: not being that careful with his inheritance. He gave huge 260 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: amounts of money away to the church and charities, and 261 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: he bought land that wasn't really going to pay off 262 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: as an investor ment. Hortense thought that they were going 263 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: to wind up with nothing, and in sixteen sixty six 264 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: she started trying to legally separate their assets. This wasn't 265 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: the same thing as dissolving the marriage. She was just 266 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: trying to kind of partition off some of their money 267 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: so that it was under her control, just so Armand 268 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: couldn't spend at all. When Armand said that they should 269 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: pull out their daughter's front teeth so that men would 270 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: not find them tempting, Hortense fled to her sister. OLMPLMP 271 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: promised to try to protect the children, but she also 272 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: didn't really want to bring her sister in to live 273 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: with them full time. So a lamp tried to mediate 274 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: between Hortense and Armand. Hortense did not think their issues 275 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: could be reconciled, and when her husband said that she 276 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: could either live with one of her sisters or go 277 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: to a convent, she went to the convent while in 278 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: the convent, Hortense developed an intense relationship with the Marquise 279 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: Maurice ci Doni de carl who was there under charges 280 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: of adult dream She was seventeen and Hortense was twenty one, 281 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 1: and together the two of them ran rough shot over 282 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: the nuns who were essentially acting as their jailers, including 283 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: playing a whole lot of pranks, like putting ink in 284 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: the holy water. That's funny. It really sounds almost like, uh, 285 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: like a weird comedy about a boarding school, like playing 286 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: pranks on the teachers. Marie Sudany helped Hortense with her 287 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: legal filings, and eventually Hortense did get a partial victory. 288 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: The court ordered that her husband grant her a pension 289 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 1: of twenty thousand livres a year and to document what 290 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: he was doing with all of their money. She was 291 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: also supposed to return back to their home, while her husband, 292 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: who was the grand Master of Artillery, would instead live 293 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: at the Arsenal of Paris. Hortense left the convent, but 294 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: Armand refused to do any of the things he had 295 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,479 Speaker 1: been ordered to do, and also destroyed the theater that 296 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: Hortense had used to stage small productions at their home 297 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: while she was away. Meanwhile, Marie Sidney reconciled with her husband, 298 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: and that was something that made Hortense so jealous that 299 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: she told him that Marie ci Dony had been receiving 300 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: secret visits from another man. This led to a duel 301 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: between Maurice ci Dony's husband and her lover, after which 302 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: both of them were imprisoned for violating the prohibition on dueling. 303 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: In the face of Urmand's increasingly erratic and frightening behavior, 304 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: Hortense moved from trying to legally separate their assets into 305 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: a formal separation from their marriage, and on June thirteen, 306 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: sixteen sixty eight, she fled to Italy with the help 307 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: of her brother Philip and a friend of theirs, the 308 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: Chevalier of Rohan. She left her children behind, hoping that 309 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: she would be better able to advocate for them away 310 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: from her husband. She took a couple of servants with her, 311 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: disguised as men. This was just not done. Women of 312 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 1: her social class did not leave their husbands, and they 313 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: certainly did not travel without male escorts. The trip itself 314 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: involved a perilous journey through the Alps. In Milan, Hortense 315 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: reunited with her sister Marie, who had come out from 316 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: Rome with her husband. Lorenzo wanted to go back home immediately, 317 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: but Hortense and Marie convinced him to stop in Sienna 318 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: for a couple of weeks instead, and there they spent 319 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: their time riding and hunting, apart from the social norms 320 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: that Hortense had really abandoned here. This was basically an 321 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,719 Speaker 1: international incident, with Hortense, a duchess, fleeing her home in 322 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: France to join her sister, whose husband was an Italian prince. 323 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: Hortense also quickly started having an affair with the Chevalier 324 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: of Rohan Squire, which was yet another layer of scandal 325 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: and also came across as a huge annoyance to Marie 326 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: and Lorenzo. They were sort of like, we're trying to 327 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: help you out, and you're having this public affair with 328 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: the squire, Why are you doing this? More generally, though, 329 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: Lorenzo was annoyed with his wife Marie. They were both 330 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: living fairly separate lives by this point, but he was 331 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: increasingly frustrated by how much money she spent on things 332 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: like artwork and improvements to their home and cultural projects 333 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: as well. As the many many outings that she took 334 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: with her sister. In sixteen seventy one, Marie got really 335 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 1: sick and people thought her husband was poisoning her. Meanwhile, 336 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: the chevaliers Squire also accused Philippe and the Chevalier of 337 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: trying to poison him. This was during the whole affair 338 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: of the poisons era. There was a lot there's a 339 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: whole lot of poison going on, poisoning and accused poisoning 340 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: and potential poisoning happening. A marriage was arraigned for Philip 341 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: that year, and Hortense went with him to Paris to 342 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: try to get some kind of legal resolution to her marriage. 343 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: Her husband was irate when he heard how Hortense had 344 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: been spending her time in Rome. She and her sister 345 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: had filled their time with parties and masked balls and 346 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 1: musical performances, with Hortense being so popular with men that 347 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: two of them allegedly fought a duel over her armand 348 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: called for hortenses arrest, but city officials refused to do it, 349 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: and he became so irate that he destroyed a lot 350 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: of their art collection. He smashed the genitals of the 351 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: statues with a hammer and cut them out of paintings 352 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: with scissors. King Louis the fourteenth was upset about this. 353 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: In addition to the King's love of and patronage for art, 354 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: the king and other people also considered this art collection 355 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: that had been destroyed to have been a national treasure. 356 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: So whatever goodwill people might have had for Armand at 357 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: this point really evaporated. In France. At this time, divorce 358 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: as we know it today really didn't exist. There was 359 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: a process for separating a couple's assets. Hortense had already 360 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: tried that, and separaciendu cour or physical separation, in which 361 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: a couple were still technically married but lived legally separated lives. 362 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: But this was not common at all, and a lot 363 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: of people were still pushing for some kind of reconciliation 364 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: between Hortense and Ormand. Hortense proposed that she be allowed 365 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: to live in a convent with servants that she chose 366 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: and the freedom to come and go. Based on what 367 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: had happened with Maurice Doni de corcell The abbesss Is 368 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: at the convents proposed as options were pretty wary of 369 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: this whole idea. He did not want any more ink 370 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: in the holy Water. Finally, still without the settlement that 371 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: she wanted, Hortense left Paris again. She returned to her 372 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: sister in Rome in May of six seventy one, and 373 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: then about a year later both of them fled. We're 374 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: going to talk more about that after we paused for 375 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: a sponsor break. Marie Mancini's relationship with her husband Lorenzo 376 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: had clearly been deteriorating for a long time before she 377 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 1: fled from Rome with her sister Hortense on May twenty nine, 378 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:24,239 Speaker 1: six seventy two. She was afraid of her husband, and 379 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: she admired her sister's will, who have left her own 380 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: husband armand But if there was like some specific last 381 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: straw that prompted Marie to decide to leave, like she 382 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: shouldn't note it anywhere. Mr may have just come to 383 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: that point. The Mancini sisters wanted to travel unobtrusively, so 384 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: they didn't take much with them, apart from some money 385 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: and jewelry and a letter of safe passage from King 386 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 1: Louis the fourteenth. The sisters and two maids all warman's 387 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: clothing under their dresses, and they took a valet with 388 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: them as well. They took steps to try to throw 389 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: people off the trail, like getting a carriage and loudly 390 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: talking about where they were going when really they were 391 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: headed to a boat to make their escape by water. Meanwhile, 392 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: Lorenzo kept sending people to find them and trying to 393 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: put barriers in the way of their escape, like spreading 394 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: the word that people should not give the sisters any 395 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: kind of shelter or allow them to pass through areas 396 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: where he thought they were headed. He also petitioned King 397 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: Louis the fourteenth to intervene. Both Lorenzo and Armand worried 398 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: about how their wives behavior would reflect on them, and 399 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: there were broader concerns about how the sisters might inspire 400 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: other women in unhappy or abusive marriages to also leave. 401 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: I have feelings. As the Mancini sisters headed for France, 402 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: this was once again an international incident. Marie really thought 403 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: that if she could go speak to King Louis the 404 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: fourteenth in person, that he might support her petition to 405 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: leave her husband, but she couldn't get permission to actually go. 406 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: Once they were traveling over land again, the two women 407 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: traveled by post with the hope that they would be 408 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: harder to track, but the king sent messengers to the 409 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 1: post stations telling them to refuse to give the sisters horses. 410 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: That was something that the sisters overcame with bribes. After 411 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: some close calls, Hortense and Marie decided to split up, 412 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: with Marie traveling through France and Horton's going to Chambre, 413 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: which today is part of France but at the time 414 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: was part of the independent Duchy of Savoy. There she 415 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: found a patron with Charles Emmanuel, the second Duke of Savoy, 416 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: who had actually been one of the men whose offer 417 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 1: of marriage Hortense's uncle had not accepted many years before. 418 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: This Duke seems to have thought that Hortense would liven 419 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: up his court, which she eventually did, but first she 420 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: spent a stretch of time mostly in prayer and reflection 421 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: and writing a whole lot of letters. King Louis the 422 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,479 Speaker 1: fourteen had offered her some financial support, and so she 423 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: wrote a lot of letters to the king to try 424 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: to maintain his goodwill even though she had done something 425 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: as scandalous as leaving her husband. She also wrote letters 426 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: to her sister's husband to try to convince him that 427 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: Marie's leaving had been her own decision, not something that 428 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: Hortense had forced her or caused her to do. Towards 429 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: the end of Hortense's time and Savoy, when she was 430 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: twenty nine, she wrote her memoirs. These were published in 431 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: sixty under the title Memoir d M L d M 432 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: or Memoir de madond ch There was already so much 433 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: rumor and gossip about her life and her relationship with 434 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: her husband that she just decided to put her own 435 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: side of the story out there publicly and in print. 436 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: This made her one of the first women in Europe 437 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: to publish her own story under her own name and 438 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: for a general audience rather than us for her family 439 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: and friends. Meanwhile, Marie was trying to evade various messengers 440 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: that she knew were carrying orders for her to stop 441 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: where she was. It's basically like, if they don't find me, 442 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: I don't have to stop. One of them did finally 443 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: catch up to her, though, and then she was presented 444 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: with a series of proposals that would involve her returning 445 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: to her husband. She rejected all of those and said 446 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: that she wanted to enter a convent of her choice, 447 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: something that she pointed out that thousands of other women 448 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: had done after being widowed or otherwise separated from their husbands. 449 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: Once she had made her whole position on this clear, 450 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: she apparently picked up a guitar and started playing it 451 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: as though she had just said all she had to 452 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: say about that and moved on. One of the accounts 453 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: that I read said that she had kept this guitar 454 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: with her the entire time since leaving room, But it 455 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: also said that they left without a lot of luggage, 456 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: so I'm not sure where the guitar came from, but 457 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: I love that story. I liked the idea of the 458 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: guitar being her version of La la la La I'm 459 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: not listening to. Eventually, Marie was allowed to go to 460 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: a convent in Lease, about forty miles outside of Paris, 461 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: which is one of the convents Hortense had stayed in previously. 462 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: At first, Marie had regular visits from her sister's olymp 463 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: and Marianne, and her husband sent some of her servants 464 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: with some of her belongings that she had requested, but 465 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: Lorenzo had sent one of those servants to act as 466 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: a spy, and soon Marie was being allowed visits only 467 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: from her sisters. Marie later moved to another convent that 468 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: was farther from Paris, but she was even less happy there. 469 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: It wasn't as comfortable, and she said that the air 470 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: was bad and made her sick. At one point, Marie 471 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: arranged a visit to her sister Hortense, but Hortense seems 472 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: to have intentionally avoided Marie by going on a trip 473 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: to the country instead. I don't think this was just 474 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: the case of bad timing. I think it was on purpose. 475 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: Hortense may have been worried that if she really welcomed 476 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: her sister, she would run afoul of some of the 477 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: good graces that at that point we're keeping her relatively safe. 478 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: But when Marie later wrote the Hortense asking for her protection, 479 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: Hortense and the Duke of Savoy arranged for Marie to 480 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: enter a convent and Turin. Marie was just really hoping 481 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: to find a place where she would have a little 482 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: more comfort and autonomy. But after a really perilous journey 483 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: through territory that was caught up in the Franco Dutch 484 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: War in the winter, she wound up at a convent 485 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: where she had even less freedom than she'd had before. 486 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: After Hortense's memoirs were published, Marie got a copy. The 487 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: memoirs had been so popular that other people started writing 488 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: and publishing fake versions of their own. Some of these 489 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: were wildly inaccurate about both sisters, including totally distorted versions 490 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: of Marie's experiences. So she followed in her sister's footsteps 491 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: and she published her own memoir, The Truth in its 492 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: Own Light or The Genuine Memoirs of m Mancini Constables Cologna. 493 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:17,719 Speaker 1: Around this time, Hortense was working on plans to leave Savoy. 494 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: She and her staff just kind of weren't getting along 495 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: with people anymore as she was trying to make those arrangements. Though, 496 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: the Duke died suddenly on June twelfth, seventy five, at 497 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: the age of only forty. The Duke's son, Victor Amadeus 498 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: the Second, was only nine, so his widow was acting 499 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: as regent, but she had really never been a fan 500 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: of Hortense. She told Hortense that she was no longer 501 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: welcome at the late Duke's court. The Duke's death was 502 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: also a blow to Marie because even though she had 503 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: not been living in Savoy, I'm not sure if these 504 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: two ever even actually met. She had written him really 505 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: often and counted him as one of her allies. After 506 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: the Duke's death, Hortense started making her way to England, 507 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: where she had a cousin, and she got a letter 508 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: from Ralph Montague passing on an invitation from Charles the Second. 509 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: The Franco Dutch War was still ongoing, so Hortense's journey 510 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: was perilous. She arrived on New Year's Eve sixteen seventy five. 511 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: Charles the Second, of course, was nicknamed the Merry Monarch. 512 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: He was famous for having a whole lot of affairs, 513 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: and as we said earlier, he was one of the 514 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,719 Speaker 1: people who had offered to marry Hortense Mancini decades before. 515 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: She also had a reputation for being very charming and 516 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: witty and attractive and popular with men. So there were 517 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: fears at court that the King might be a little 518 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: bit overly interested in her, and that she might kind 519 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: of throw off the balance of his other relationships and 520 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: this like house of affairs cards would turn into chaos. 521 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: These fears were founded. Soon the King and Horton were 522 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: having an affair, and he had granted her at pension 523 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: in sixteen seventy six, Hortense Mancini started hosting salons in England, 524 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: ones that were open to women and gave them opportunities 525 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: to learn and experience art and culture free from many 526 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: of the cultural restraints that were normally placed on them. 527 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: Her friend Charles des Saint Evermond acted as co host, 528 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: and sometimes the two of them are credited with popularizing 529 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: champagne in England. Charles imported it from France and they 530 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: served at the salon. Hortense also had a lot of pets, 531 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: including dogs and cats and parrots and other exotic birds, 532 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: and she had gambling tables, which led some people to 533 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: write off her salon as a gambling den. Hortense Mancini 534 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: had affairs throughout her life away from her husband, and 535 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: one of the most notorious was while she was in England. 536 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: It was with Anne, Countess of Sussex, who was one 537 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: of the King's illegitimate daughters. Although she was only fourteen 538 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: and was already married to a man named Thomas Leonard, 539 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: who was one of the gentlemen of the King's bed chamber, 540 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: Neither Hortense nor Anne seemed upset by rumors that they 541 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: were lovers, and they really did not try to contradict them. 542 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: One of the people who commented on this was Lady Chaworth, 543 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,439 Speaker 1: who wrote this in a letter to her brother, Lord 544 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: Ruth on December six quote, Lady Sussex is not yet gone, 545 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: but my Lord is better and holds his resolution of 546 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: going as soon as the weather breaks up to make 547 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: good travailing. She and Madame Mazzarin have privately learned to 548 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: fence and went down into St James Park the other 549 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: day with drawn swords under their nightgowns, which they drew 550 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: out and made several fine passes with to the admiration 551 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: of several men that was onlookers in the park. And 552 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: another letter she wrote quote Lady Sussex is mightily pleased 553 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: with fox hunting and hair hunting, but kisses Madame Mazarin's 554 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: picture with much effects and still This might have been 555 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: after Ann's husband demanded that she come back from Hortense's lodgings, 556 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: and she was forcibly removed from there. Hortense had various 557 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 1: other affairs, including a possible one with past podcast subject 558 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 1: afro Ben. Her relationship with the Count of Monico eventually 559 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: became public and close enough that King Charles called off 560 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: his affair with her, but he wasn't so upset about 561 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: it that he made her go back to France instead. 562 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: Hortense kept up an active social life in her house 563 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: in St. James's Park, including being reunited with Maurice I 564 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: Donni de Carcel when she came to visit London. While 565 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: Hortense was having what sounds like a pretty fabulous time 566 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: in London, Marie made her way to Madrid and she 567 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: moved into another convent. While there, she was reunited with 568 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: her sons, who by now were teenagers. Her husband, Lorenzo 569 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: kept trying to restrict her movements. He seems to have 570 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: kind of allowed her to go to Madrid, thinking that 571 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: family members he had there would help keep her in line. 572 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 1: But officials in Madrid seemed less inclined to do what 573 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: Lorenzo wanted them to do. The Archbishop of Caesara wrote 574 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: him a letter that said, in part quote, here we 575 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: do not treat our wives as you do in Italy. 576 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: Your wish to put her in a prison is not 577 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,919 Speaker 1: enough to see it done. But Lorenzo would not give 578 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: up in his efforts to get her to return to 579 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: their marriage, or if not that at least to be 580 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: able to control her comings and goings. Eventually, he ordered 581 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: her imprisonment in a medieval fortress in Seville known as 582 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: the Alcazar, something even her detractors thought was too extreme 583 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: because this was a cold, drafty place and this was 584 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: happening in the middle of winter. In sight one, Lorenzo 585 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: proposed that Marie enter the convent as a novice, meaning 586 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: that she would be on her way to taking steps 587 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: to becoming a nun, rather than just being sheltered in 588 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: the convents. He said that he would be taking holy 589 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: orders as well. Marie agreed to this, although Lorenzo did 590 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: not hold up his end of the bargain to take 591 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: holy orders of his own. Meanwhile, back in England, Hortense 592 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: had fallen under suspicion in the wake of the Popish plot. 593 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: This was not a real plot. It was based on 594 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: fabricated allegations by Anglican clergyman Titus Oates that Jesuits were 595 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 1: planning to assassinate Charles the Second. Even though this was 596 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 1: not true, a lot of people believed it, and since 597 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: Hortense was Catholic and a foreigner, people began to distrust her. Then, 598 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: in sixteen eighty four, her nephew, Philippe, who was her 599 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: sister Olimp's son, challenged one of Hortense's admirers to a 600 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: duel and killed him. In France, this was a huge scandal, 601 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: and people blamed Hortense for not being a better influence 602 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: on him. Then, in February of six five, King Charles 603 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: the Second died. His successor, James the Second and seventh, 604 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: continued to support Hortense financially, but he was deposed in 605 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 1: the Glorious Revolution of sixteen eight. A year later, on 606 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: April fifteenth, sixteen eighty nine, Marie's husband, Lorenzo and Afrio 607 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: colonnad died, and as a widow, Marie finally had some 608 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: of the freedom that she had been trying to get 609 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: for herself for most of her life. She reconnected with 610 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: her sons and she traveled. She also reconnected with her 611 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: old friend or Tensia Stella, who had been one of 612 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: her ladies in waiting and who also was one of 613 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: the women that Lorenzo had had an affair with. Lorenzo 614 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: and or Tensia Stella had two children that Lorenzo had 615 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,439 Speaker 1: formally recognized, and these two women each worked to help 616 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: the other one out with various issues that were related 617 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: to Lorenzo's estate. Well, we kind of both got in 618 00:38:54,239 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: this mess. Possibly inspired by Lorenzo's death, Armand sued Hortense 619 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: in sixteen nine during a formal separation hearing. He vilified 620 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: her as a gambler and libertine, and the legal arguments 621 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: surrounding the hearing were published afterward. The case was decided 622 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: in the Duke's favor, and Hortense was ordered to return 623 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: to France, first to a convent and then to her husband, 624 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: and she said she would rather die. It was not 625 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: possible for Armand to force Hortense to return, though it 626 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: might have been, except that the Nine Years War had 627 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: started the year before, and England and France were at 628 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: war with one another. Hortense just defied this order and 629 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: stayed where she was, although she had to move into 630 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: smaller and smaller lodgings as her money dwindled. By June 631 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: of sixte Hortense was described as increasingly depressed, including drinking 632 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: too much, not eating enough, and deeply in debt. She 633 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: died on July two, six John Evelyn wrote about it 634 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: in his diary on the eleventh, describing her as quote 635 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 1: an extraordinary beauty and wit, but dissolute and impatient of 636 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: matrimonial restraint. After paying off her debts, Armand had Hortense's 637 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: body embalmed and returned to France. He took it through 638 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: what seems like an intentionally planned roundabout and very long route, 639 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: traveling through places that he knew that she hated to 640 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: get there the drama. Marie Mancini's last year seemed to 641 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: have been more comfortable and happier than her sister's. She 642 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: did not have much of her own, but her sons 643 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: were generous with her. She traveled when things like the 644 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: Nine Years War weren't making it too dangerous to do so. 645 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,319 Speaker 1: She died in Pisa on May eighth, seventeen fifteen, and 646 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: she was buried there. She had asked to be buried 647 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 1: wherever it was she happened to be when she died. 648 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: Her first love, Louis the fourteen, died a few months later. 649 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: There are lots of books about Hortense Mancini and Marie Mancini, 650 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: and others of their sisters and the affair of the 651 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: poisons that's come up a couple of times. One of 652 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,760 Speaker 1: the books that's focused to just on Hortons and Marie 653 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: is the King's Mistresses. The Liberated Lives of Marie Mancini, 654 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: Princess Colowna and her sister, Horton's Duchess Mazarin that came 655 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: out in There's also a pretty new translation of their 656 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: groundbreaking memoirs which came out in two thousand eight from 657 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 1: the University of Chicago Press. Do you also have listener 658 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: mail after this rollicking wild ride? I do. This listener 659 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: mail is from Meredith and it actually there's the listener 660 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: mail and then also an addendum to the listener mail. 661 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: So Meredith wrote, Hey, Holly and Tracy, I'm a longtime 662 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: listener of your show and have I think listen to 663 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: every episode. I wanted to write and say a few 664 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: things about your recent episode on Edward May's Monster. The 665 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 1: first being that, as a hospice nurse practitioner who's married 666 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: to a cardiac surgeon, I thought I was tough enough 667 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: to eat my lunch while listening to this episode end, 668 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: I was not so props on that accomplishment of thoroughly 669 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: grossing out a hardened medical feel betteran like myself. Secondly, 670 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,760 Speaker 1: the first thing I thought of when listening to May's 671 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: description of the monster was, Hey, that's what an aortic 672 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: plaque looks like. My husband routinely pulls giant plaques and 673 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: or cloths out of people's bodies. I've seen a fair 674 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: few pictures of the ones who's gotten to include in 675 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 1: papers and the like. I'm not quite sure if that's 676 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: exactly what the Lancet researcher was referring to when she 677 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: concluded that it was hardened plasma, as plasma is the 678 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: clear part of the blood, and plaques are made up 679 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: of fatty deposits found in plasma. But anyway, it does 680 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: happen that an aortic plaque loosens from the arterial wall 681 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,840 Speaker 1: and travels into the heart, causing sorts of damage and 682 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: or death, or could have traveled there after death. I 683 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,839 Speaker 1: don't know if an entire aortic plaque could wedge into 684 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 1: a ventricle, but anyway, I thought it was interesting. I 685 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: attached a picture from Wikipedia, not one of my husband ones, 686 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: and it does look a lot like me description. The 687 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: first one was taken from a body post mortem. In 688 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,240 Speaker 1: the second is a scan of what's in a person 689 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: with a plaques descending a order. Thanks for all your 690 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,839 Speaker 1: work on the podcast. I look forward to it every week. 691 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: I wrote back, was like, this is so great. I 692 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: similarly went down a Google a Google image rabbit hole 693 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: with terms like plasma clot and post mortem clot as 694 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: I was like trying to figure out what this might 695 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,440 Speaker 1: have been, and it was like right after I had 696 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,479 Speaker 1: eaten lunch, and I similarly was a little a little 697 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 1: gross dout. I was like, this is not the correct 698 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: timing of how I should have ordered my day. So 699 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: then I got to follow up from Meredith, who said, 700 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: so I talked to my husband and he says the 701 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 1: aortic plaque couldn't end up in the ventricle because if 702 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: they loosen, they traveled downstream, not up. However, sometimes the 703 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: plaqueforms attached to a calcified aortic valve, which would also 704 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: form a similar shape if pulled out with a triangle head. 705 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: Should actually have been calcified valve. Still not sure how 706 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: they would find it all in the ventricle. Probably depends 707 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: on how they opened it, etcetera. If they were just 708 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: mistaken that it was all in the ventricle. Anyway, just 709 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: making sure I didn't give you bad info. So I 710 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:20,720 Speaker 1: loved this whole email from the pros. Yeah, I don't 711 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: know why. I did not foresee that that episode would 712 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: prompt people to send in medical images. But this is 713 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: not the only email that we got that had images 714 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: of like clots and plaques and et cetera attached to it. 715 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 1: So thank you for sending this possibility about something that 716 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,720 Speaker 1: may have been going on. We also got an email 717 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: from somebody saying that it might have been a thrombus, 718 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: which is another word for a blood clot. And I 719 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: think the reason that the two people whose papers I 720 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: found that were in like the late early one century 721 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 1: about these the reason that I think they didn't just 722 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,919 Speaker 1: say it was a blood clot is that it's described 723 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: in May's writing as having been white, and most of 724 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: the time blood clots are read, I have been told 725 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: that they can look quite in some circumstances, but like 726 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: that's I think that's what's driving that description. So anyway, 727 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: thank you Meredith for this fascinating email and the pictures. 728 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 1: Um And I'm sorry for all of the various people 729 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 1: who are who we grossed out with this episode, because 730 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 1: we did also get some comments about how gross it was. 731 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 1: I feel like I can be squeamish, and none of 732 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 1: that grossed me out, and I'm like, have I become 733 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 1: a monster? The episode itself didn't gross me out, but 734 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 1: the pictures that I looked at when I was in 735 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,799 Speaker 1: my Google search, my Google image search rabbit hole, those 736 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: did gross me out. None of it was nearly as 737 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: gross to me as like, I have a specific, vivid 738 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 1: memory of which which episode has ever been the grossest 739 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: to me? And it was the Terror episode. Oh yeah, 740 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:00,799 Speaker 1: that didn't gross me on. Maybe I'm not squeamish as 741 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 1: I thought. I just don't want to watch a facelift. 742 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 1: I'll watch anything else. Yeah, there was one particular moment 743 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: in that episode that I I had to read it 744 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: and I read it really fast because it was really 745 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: grist me out. Anyway, you can go find that episode 746 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: yourself if you're curious. It's about the guy named Tara. Anyway, 747 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: thanks again for this email. If you would like to 748 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 1: send us a note, We're at History Podcast at I 749 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,279 Speaker 1: heart radio dot com. We're all over social media at 750 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,360 Speaker 1: missed in History. That's where you'll find our Facebook, Twitter, 751 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: Pinterston Instagram, and you can subscribe to our show on 752 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: the I heart radio app and wherever else you'd like 753 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:43,000 Speaker 1: to get podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is 754 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from 755 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: i heart Radio, visit the i heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, 756 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:51,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.