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Speaker 1: There's a scene at the end of The Devilware's Prada

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Speaker 1: where the character Miranda Priestley, a famed and famously demanding

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Speaker 1: fashion editor, gives her young assistant Andy a rare compliment.

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Speaker 2: I see a great deal of myself and you.

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Speaker 1: This comment comes after a turning point in the movie

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Speaker 1: where Miranda has just saved her own career by brutally

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Speaker 1: betraying someone who has been enormously loyal to her. So

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Speaker 1: Andy is horrified by this comparison, and she rejects it.

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Speaker 3: She says she's not sure that she wants to be

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Speaker 3: like Miranda.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what if I don't want to live the

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Speaker 2: way you live?

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Speaker 4: And it'll be ridiculous, Andrea, everybody wants this, Everybody wants

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Speaker 4: to be us.

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Speaker 1: But does everybody want the glamorous, punishing life at the

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Speaker 1: center of this story. That's the central question of the

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Speaker 1: movie and this episode. I'm Susie Banacarum and I'm Jessica Bennett,

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Speaker 1: and this is in retrospect, where each week we revisit

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Speaker 1: a cultural moment from the past that shaped.

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Speaker 3: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about.

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Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about the Doublewaar's product and the way

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Speaker 1: it depicts women's ambition. But we're also talking about how

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Speaker 1: a cautionary tale about sacrificing everything for your job ended

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Speaker 1: up glamorizing.

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Speaker 3: Exactly that dress.

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Speaker 1: As we've said, we're talking about the Doublewars product today,

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Speaker 1: a movie starring Meryl Streep and Anne Hathaway and this

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Speaker 1: fraught relationship they have. Anne Hathaway is a recent college grad,

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Speaker 1: it's her first job, and Meryl Streep plays her famous

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Speaker 1: and powerful boss. And this is a circumstance you and

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Speaker 1: I are somewhat familiar with in lots of different variations.

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Speaker 3: No comment, no comments, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, We've both worked for some famous and powerful women,

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Speaker 1: some not so famous, but certainly complicated women.

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Speaker 3: Is how I would describe a lot of them.

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Speaker 1: I think that's partially why I feel so connected to

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Speaker 1: the movie. And it is a movie I have seen

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Speaker 1: countless times. It came out in two thousand and six,

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Speaker 1: and I honestly can't tell you when I first saw it.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember if I saw it in the theater.

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Speaker 1: But have you seen the movie? Do you remember kind

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Speaker 1: of what you thought about it or what you've thought

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Speaker 1: about it over the years.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I, of course saw it, and I think

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Speaker 5: it came out at a time when I had just

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Speaker 5: moved to New York and had dreams of becoming a journalist,

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Speaker 5: so I was very interested from that perspective.

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Speaker 3: Obviously, it's like not that true to life, but it's.

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Speaker 5: Really fun, though I forget a lot of the details.

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Speaker 3: So can you give me the cliff Notes version?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the more recent version is spark Notes,

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Speaker 1: but same thing. I will give you a little summary

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Speaker 1: of the movie. So Andy, who I've said is played

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Speaker 1: by Anne Hathaway, has moved to New York right after

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Speaker 1: college to pursue a career in journalism.

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Speaker 3: She was the editor in chief of her college paper.

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Speaker 1: She has this dream of working at the New Yorker

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Speaker 1: or someplace serious like that.

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Speaker 3: Of course, this is what all my students want to

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Speaker 3: do also.

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Speaker 1: So Andy goes to interview at a big publishing company,

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Speaker 1: thinking she's going to get a job at some serious place,

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Speaker 1: but randomly the hr person tells her there's availability to

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Speaker 1: be the second assistant to Miranda Priestley, who is the

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Speaker 1: editor in chief of Runway Magazine, which is a fashion magazine.

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Speaker 1: That character is played by Meryl Streep and is widely

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Speaker 1: understood to be a very thinly veiled depiction of Anna Wintour,

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Speaker 1: who is the famed longtime editor of Vogue magazine. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so despite this amazing opportunity, Andy knows nothing about.

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Speaker 3: Fashion or fashion magazines.

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Speaker 1: She gets the job because she sort of has this

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Speaker 1: moment while she's standing in Miranda Priestley's office where she

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Speaker 1: pitches herself as hardworking and smart and Miranda decides to

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Speaker 1: give her the job.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so we all know Miranda's just brutal as a boss,

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Speaker 3: but paint us a little bit of a picture. She's

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Speaker 3: pretty terrible.

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Speaker 1: She's cold and demanding, and she makes really unreasonable requests

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Speaker 1: that are essentially impossible, Like at one point, she demands

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Speaker 1: that Andy find a flight for her during a literal hurricane,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, why can't you get me out of here?

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Speaker 1: And then there's another example where she demands that Andy

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Speaker 1: get her the unpublished manuscript of the next Harry Potter

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Speaker 1: book for her daughters, and Andy actually achieves that one.

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Speaker 1: But Andy is determined to survive this job for at

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Speaker 1: least a year because everyone keeps telling her that a

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Speaker 1: million girls would kill for this job and that if

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Speaker 1: she can just stick it out and succeed that Miranda

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Speaker 1: will be able to help her get those serious jobs

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Speaker 1: she really.

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Speaker 5: Wants, which is not dissimilar from what these types of

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Speaker 5: bosses actually do promise in real life.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, it's exactly what these bosses do promise.

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Speaker 1: So initially she fumbles, and she doesn't really hide her

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Speaker 1: disdain for fashion, Like there's all these moments where they're

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Speaker 1: doing fittings and she's kind of like making a face

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Speaker 1: or snickering, and that is very much noted by Miranda,

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Speaker 1: who finds it super annoying. And then there's this first

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Speaker 1: assistant played by Emily Blunt. So Andy is the second assistant.

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Speaker 1: Miranda has two assistants, and that's a seniority thing. The

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Speaker 1: first assistant is more senior than the second assistant. And

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Speaker 1: Emily Blunt is just hilarious in this. She steals a

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Speaker 1: lot of the scenes, and she just cannot understand Andy,

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Speaker 1: like she doesn't think she's deserving of the job, she

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Speaker 1: doesn't understand her fashion. She's just kind of like, Miranda's

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Speaker 1: decided to hire you, but I'm just putting up with

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Speaker 1: you essentially.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry, do you have some prior commitment, some hideous

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Speaker 4: skirt convention you have to go to.

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Speaker 1: But one of the other fashion editors, played by Stanley Tucci,

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Speaker 1: takes Andy under his wing and she goes from being

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Speaker 1: this unfashionable rube to hot and stylish.

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Speaker 3: Of course, could have predicted that.

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Speaker 1: And in the process she becomes seduced by the environment

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Speaker 1: and this desire to please Miranda. So that is the

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Speaker 1: context of the movie, and that is where we are

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Speaker 1: when we get to this scene that we played at

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Speaker 1: the top of the episode.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, so the scene. What drew you to this

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Speaker 5: scene in particular? Well, I love the scene.

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Speaker 1: I think I always have, but over time I've become

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Speaker 1: kind of more drawn to it because it really encapsulates

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Speaker 1: for me, the central tension in many women's careers, in

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Speaker 1: my career, in the careers I see of my friends,

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Speaker 1: I think, when you're young, you do want this life.

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Speaker 1: You want to be hugely successful, you want these big jobs,

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Speaker 1: but you don't really fully understand the sacrifices you're going

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Speaker 1: to make.

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Speaker 3: You're told that there.

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Speaker 1: Will be sacrifices, but as you go through you see

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Speaker 1: what that really means for your life, and that is

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Speaker 1: really complicated. So this dynamic, this tension between them is

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Speaker 1: a reflection of I think something that we all struggle

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Speaker 1: with internally, really.

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Speaker 3: And the scene begins where this tension is playing out. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the scene comes at the end of the movie

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Speaker 1: after Andy has gone through her transformation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, her fashion transformation.

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Speaker 1: Now she's wearing like amazing clothes and has like a

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Speaker 1: great haircut, and she does look I will say, imtegrable.

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Speaker 1: And she has seemingly bought into this world and kind

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Speaker 1: of in a Stockholm syndrome kind of way, you see

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Speaker 1: that all of her relationships are in tatters. She keeps

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Speaker 1: ditching her friends and family, and she and her boyfriend

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Speaker 1: have just broken up because she's so obsessed with her.

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Speaker 3: Work, obsessed with their work.

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Speaker 5: I feel like that's also another frequent plot line and

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Speaker 5: these types of things. It's like the boyfriend can't Hannah,

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Speaker 5: how devoted to your career?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't handle it.

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Speaker 1: And they're in Paris for fashion Week, and even coming

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Speaker 1: on this trip to Paris is supposed to be an

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Speaker 1: indication that Andy has lost her way because it is Emily,

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Speaker 1: the first assistant who is supposed to go on this trip.

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Speaker 1: It is a huge deal to go to Paris fashion week,

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Speaker 1: and Emily has been talking about it for months, and

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Speaker 1: now Andy has gone instead because Miranda has taken a

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Speaker 1: liking to her and has said to Andy, you can

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Speaker 1: come to Harris instead, but you have to tell Emily.

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Speaker 3: Oh right. She's like pitting them against each other.

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Speaker 1: And now in Paris, Andy has discovered that Miranda is

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Speaker 1: about to be fired and replaced by a much younger

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Speaker 1: European editor, and she's desperately trying to get to Miranda

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Speaker 1: to warn her. And then, unbeknown st Andy, Miranda has

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Speaker 1: already been aware of the plan and has outmaneuvered the

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Speaker 1: publisher by getting the younger editor another job.

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Speaker 3: And it's a particularly.

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Speaker 1: Brutal move and moment in the movie because Miranda has

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Speaker 1: saved herself by giving the job that had been promised

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Speaker 1: to the character played by Stanley Tucci to this other

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Speaker 1: editor to get her out of the way. And so

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Speaker 1: Stanley Tucci, who is this really loyal deputy who's worked

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Speaker 1: for her for years, who you see in an earlier

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Speaker 1: scene is so excited about this new role now is

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Speaker 1: stuck still at Runway Magazine with her. And now Andy

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Speaker 1: and Miranda are in a car together and Andy is reeling

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Speaker 1: from this because she has seen all of this go down,

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Speaker 1: and Miranda acknowledges that she saw how hard Andy tried

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Speaker 1: to warn her and was impressed by that.

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Speaker 3: And then she says to her.

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Speaker 2: I see a great deal of myself and you.

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Speaker 1: And obviously Miranda means this as a compliment, but you

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Speaker 1: can see just by the reaction on Andy's face that

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Speaker 1: she does not hear it as a compliment, and she objects.

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Speaker 1: She says, but I would never do what you did, Miranda,

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Speaker 1: and Miranda reminds her that she already did to the

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Speaker 1: other assistant she replaced to go on this trip.

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Speaker 2: That was different. I didn't have the choice. No, you choose,

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Speaker 2: you choose to get in you want this life. Those

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Speaker 2: choices aren't necessary. But what if this isn't what I want?

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Speaker 4: I mean, what if I don't want to live the

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Speaker 4: way you live? And don't be ridiculous, Andrea. Everybody wants this,

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Speaker 4: everybody wants to be us.

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Speaker 5: It's so funny because she truly can't conceive a world

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Speaker 5: in which people don't want what she has and what

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Speaker 5: she has to do to hold on to it.

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Speaker 3: So yes, yeah, it is. It's a very poignant moment

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Speaker 3: in that way.

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Speaker 5: Because Andy has realized that she's doing the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Right, And just to finish this moment, when they arrive

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Speaker 1: at the event they're going to, Andy turns and leaves

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Speaker 1: Miranda alone. And while she's walking away, Miranda calls her,

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Speaker 1: and you see Andy look at her phone and it

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Speaker 1: shows Miranda's name, and Andy throws her phone into a

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Speaker 1: nearby fountains. Right, so she's like relinquished this life. And

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Speaker 1: we don't know how she gets back to New York.

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Speaker 1: We don't know anything else, right, but she has like

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Speaker 1: walked away in the middle of like the most important

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Speaker 1: week of Miranda Priestley's year.

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Speaker 3: And back in New York, we see.

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Speaker 1: Andy go to a job interview at a newspaper, a

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Speaker 1: serious publication.

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Speaker 3: She has said she's back in Dowdy Close, although.

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Speaker 1: Still with a much more fashionable touch. I will say,

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Speaker 1: she still has the fabulous haircut. And so this editor

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Speaker 1: who is interviewing tells her that he's reached out to

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Speaker 1: Miranda for a reference, and you kind of see the

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Speaker 1: look across Andy's face and he says he received a

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Speaker 1: note back saying that Andy was the biggest disappointment, but

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Speaker 1: he'd be an idiot not to hire her, and ultimately

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Speaker 1: that's how we know this is a cautionary tale. Andy

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Speaker 1: has made a deal with the devil, the devil in Prada.

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Speaker 1: She's lost her way, she's disappointed her friends and family,

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Speaker 1: but by the end, she's seen the air of her ways.

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Speaker 1: She's saved herself, and luckily for her, because it's a fantasy,

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Speaker 1: she's reaped the benefits anyway, She's now gotten this other

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Speaker 1: job because Miranda has still given her her seal of approval,

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Speaker 1: which it is a fantasy, right, So it is the

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Speaker 1: fantasy we all have that that boss, he was terrible

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Speaker 1: to us, secretly thought we were amazing, right, Like that

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Speaker 1: is the redemption we all want.

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Speaker 3: So obviously this movie is not high art, right.

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Speaker 1: It's like, I don't want to make it seem like

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Speaker 1: we're going into the ins and outs of this movie,

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Speaker 1: because I think it's the best movie ever made. But

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Speaker 1: it is the real chic flick that isn't centered on

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Speaker 1: a man. It's about a girl and her ambitions and

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Speaker 1: figure out what she wants. The boyfriend's storyline is a

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Speaker 1: secondary plot point and they don't end up together, right,

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Speaker 1: And the role of Miranda Priestley is not something we

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Speaker 1: saw a lot in this way, right, a woman who

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Speaker 1: is highly successful, unapologetic, fully in charge, and is really

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Speaker 1: seen as a leader in this industry.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it reminds me of like there's those

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Speaker 5: movies about female ambition in a way from the eighties,

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Speaker 5: Like I'm thinking about Baby Boom and wasn't there Working Girl?

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Speaker 1: Yes, those are both movies I love, and they are

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Speaker 1: both about women trying to make their way in their

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Speaker 1: working life. But in both those movies, the romance is

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Speaker 1: still very central, and they do end up with a

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Speaker 1: hot guy at the end, right, and that is seen

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Speaker 1: as part of the happy ending. And here the happy

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Speaker 1: ending is that she gets the job she wants, Right,

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Speaker 1: That's a really big difference.

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Speaker 5: Did you relate to Andy in watching it at the time,

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Speaker 5: Like I remember, Yes, I too wanted to be a

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Speaker 5: serious journalist, but I don't know that I ever thought

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Speaker 5: I would be capable of walking away in the same

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Speaker 5: way she did.

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Speaker 3: I definitely didn't relate to that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I felt like I had to do whatever

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Speaker 1: it took to succeed, and I was willing to do that.

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Speaker 1: I was not the girl who was going to throw

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Speaker 1: her phone in the fountain. I had you know, bills

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Speaker 1: to pay and student loans and did what I had.

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Speaker 5: To Immigrant mentality probably too, Yeah, definitely immigrant mentality.

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Speaker 1: I did not feel like I was in a position

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Speaker 1: where I had a safety net, so there was no

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Speaker 1: place to go.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I guess that's the fantasy aspect of this movie,

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Speaker 5: is that most people are not in the position to

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Speaker 5: throw their work phone fountain and just hope they're going

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Speaker 5: to get another job.

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Speaker 1: And I actually I went back to my LinkedIn because

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Speaker 1: I couldn't remember where I was in my own career.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So in two thousand and six, I was working

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Speaker 3: at ABC News.

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Speaker 1: At that time, George Stephanopolis was the host of This Week,

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Speaker 1: which I think he still hosts sometimes, and I did

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Speaker 1: have a very intense female boss who definitely had some

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Speaker 1: Miranda Priestley like demands.

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Speaker 5: Okay, so now you have to tell us what kind

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Speaker 5: of demands those were.

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Speaker 1: One thing that seems very Miranda like is that she

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Speaker 1: needed her daily papers to be unwrinkled, So before she

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Speaker 1: came in, her assistant would put her papers on her

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Speaker 1: desk and she had to make sure she got only

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Speaker 1: unwrinkled copies, which I'm not even sure how you guarantee

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Speaker 1: that I know she wasn't ironing them. So that's like

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Speaker 1: a very funny thing. She must have gone to the

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Speaker 1: newsstand and like selected.

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Speaker 5: Oh unwringkled copies of the papers. I thought you just

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Speaker 5: met papers in general. Oh no, the newspapers, like the newspapers,

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Speaker 5: So she had to like make sure she wasn't getting

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Speaker 5: the top one at the BA she'd like dig.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she doesn't make sure that whatever the New York

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Speaker 1: Times or New York Posts she was picking up, they

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Speaker 1: were pristine. And we had a very intense rule that

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Speaker 1: you would get in trouble for if you didn't. When

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Speaker 1: you sent an email on the two line, the names

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Speaker 1: had to be an order of seniority, Like if I

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Speaker 1: send an email to two people and one of them

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Speaker 1: was junior, they had to be second on the chain.

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Speaker 3: Or I think that I do do that, like I

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Speaker 3: don't die.

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Speaker 5: I don't do it too, but I think that I

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Speaker 5: do do that because it just kind of makes logical sense.

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Speaker 5: But I'm sure younger people who wear email was not

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Speaker 5: their primary with Queen Caanner who came up on slack

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Speaker 5: probably think that's insane.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I also do that still too, just because

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Speaker 1: it's locked into my brain.

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Speaker 3: I can't get it out of my brain.

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Speaker 1: But the other one that I think is particularly funny

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Speaker 1: is if we had a cake in the office for

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Speaker 1: someone's birthday, the assistant had to make sure to hand

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Speaker 1: out the pieces of cake in the order of seniority's.

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Speaker 5: So many ways, so like true hierarchy to everything, like

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Speaker 5: very higher.

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Speaker 1: It was this kind of obsession with order right like

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Speaker 1: it things had to be a very specific way, which

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Speaker 1: just were not chill at all.

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Speaker 5: I will say though, that with so many of these stories,

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Speaker 5: it's like there are plenty of male bosses that do

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Speaker 5: this kind of shit too, maybe not with the cake,

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Speaker 5: or maybe it's like they're the menus just playing out

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Speaker 5: in different ways, but we don't necessarily call them demanding

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Speaker 5: in the same way we just call them.

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Speaker 1: Then, well, I will tell you a great story I know,

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Speaker 1: like this about a mail boss at ABC is. I

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Speaker 1: have a friend who was an assistant to an executive

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Speaker 1: producer and he used to make her follow him to

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Speaker 1: the bathroom and he would continue to shout notes at

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Speaker 1: her through the door and she'd have to like take

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Speaker 1: notes while he was peeing, which is disgusting.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't remember anyone ever calling that guy

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Speaker 3: a diva.

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Speaker 1: And to be clear, this is a woman who I

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Speaker 1: enjoyed working for enough that I went to work for

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Speaker 1: her again. Right, She gets demanding and difficult, but I

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Speaker 1: saw that as just the way you had to be

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Speaker 1: to be in these jobs. I didn't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of examples of people in these jobs who were kind.

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Speaker 3: And compassionate and wanted to like coddle me. This was

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Speaker 3: the deal.

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Speaker 5: And also, for what it's worth, if you're running a

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Speaker 5: company or whatever the job may be, you probably don't

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Speaker 5: have time to coddle your assistant and on like, on

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Speaker 5: some level, maybe I'm sympathetic a little bit to some

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Speaker 5: of this. Cancel me, am, I remembering correctly that this

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Speaker 5: movie was based on a book.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it was based on a best selling book of

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Speaker 1: the same name. It was written by Lauren Weisberger, and

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Speaker 1: the book came out in two thousand and three. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And the book was itself a cultural phenomenon.

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Speaker 3: It was really popular.

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Speaker 1: It came out at the peak of the chick lit era,

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Speaker 1: and most relevant is that Weisberger had actually been Anna

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Speaker 1: Wintor's assistant at Vogue, which is why it was so

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Speaker 1: widely understood that Winter Tour was the inspiration for Priestley.

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Speaker 5: It's probably worth spending a little time for those who

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Speaker 5: might not know as much as we do talking about

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Speaker 5: who Anna Winter is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so she is not just the editor of a

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Speaker 1: fashion magazine. She has literally been called the single most

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Speaker 1: important figure in the three hundred billion dollar global fashion industry.

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Speaker 1: As you might expect from a famous fashion editor, she

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Speaker 1: has a very distinctive look. You know, this classic bob

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Speaker 1: that she's had for years, with fangs. She's often seen

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Speaker 1: wearing sunglasses. She's always flawless. And I was actually thinking,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if I've ever seen her in casual clothes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I humbled Anna Wintour and jeans, And apparently she

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Speaker 1: does have genes because I found some pictures of it,

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Speaker 1: and she looks great in them. But she is sort

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Speaker 1: of in your mind if you've seen lots of images

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Speaker 1: of her, which I have, but I'm sure you have too,

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Speaker 1: this very polished person. And she became the Vogue editor

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Speaker 1: in chief in nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 3: Isn't that crazy? Thirty five years ago? Is she the

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Speaker 3: longest servant?

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Speaker 5: Like that's a huge amount of time for an editor

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Speaker 5: in chief To be clear.

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Speaker 1: I mean, most people last two years in a job

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Speaker 1: in media, right, So the fact that she's been a

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Speaker 1: top the most famous fashion magazine in the world for

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Speaker 1: thirty five years is really an achievement and just wild.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she's been in that job longer than a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have been alive. And she was promoted

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Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen to Conde Nasts artistic director, so she

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Speaker 1: doesn't just lead Vogue anymore. She is the editorial leader

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Speaker 1: of all the titles of Conde Nast, which include The

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Speaker 1: New Yorker and Vanity Fair and Wired and a bunch

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Speaker 1: of other things.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I remember watching that documentary about her. What was

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Speaker 5: it this September Issue.

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Speaker 1: Yes, there is a documentary about her called The September Issue.

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Speaker 3: It was released in two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 1: And the thing about Anna is she's very much seen

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Speaker 1: as a visionary, as someone who can see things coming

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Speaker 1: down the line and lead rather than follow. So she's

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Speaker 1: credited with seeing the power of celebrity culture really early

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Speaker 1: in the cycle and realizing before other people did that

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Speaker 1: it made sense to put celebrities on the cover. You

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Speaker 1: used to be models on the cover of fashion magazine.

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Speaker 1: It's Anna who's really credited with changing that.

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Speaker 5: And she runs the met Gallet too, right, which is

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Speaker 5: like the biggest celebrity event of all.

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Speaker 1: Yes, she throws the net Galut, which is a benefit

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Speaker 1: for the Metropolitan Museum of Arts Costume Institute.

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Speaker 3: It's the first Monday in.

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Speaker 5: May, which means fashions, the biggest night is finally here.

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Speaker 1: You know, just running that would make her a huge

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Speaker 1: cultural figure. Celebrities are desperate for invites to that. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so it's really hard to overstate her power and influence.

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Speaker 1: But also she is famously inaccessible. She is famously kind

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Speaker 1: of known to be someone with very high standards.

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Speaker 5: Isn't the rumor that if you are an assistant or

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Speaker 5: a junior editor person at Vogue, you are not allowed

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Speaker 5: to make eye contact with her in the elevator?

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Speaker 3: That's what I've always heard.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I've heard that you're not allowed to say hello

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Speaker 1: to her or make eye contact. And frankly, that's been

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Speaker 1: true of other bosses I have had, So that does

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Speaker 1: not surprise me as a rumor.

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Speaker 3: I feel like that could very much be real.

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Speaker 5: Okay, so how close to reality do we think the

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Speaker 5: book and the movie an actual Anna Winter are.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question. The Devilware's product is technically fiction.

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Speaker 1: So I reached out to Samita Muka Patai, who worked

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Speaker 1: for Anna Wintour as the executive editor at teen Vogue,

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Speaker 1: and it happens to also be the author of an.

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Speaker 3: Upcoming book on women and work and ambition.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Samita was an editor, so she obviously had

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Speaker 1: a very different job than Andy did in the movie.

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Speaker 1: But here's how Samita describes being interviewed by Anna Wintour.

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Speaker 3: I was very anxious to meet her.

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Speaker 6: It just was never a position I ever thought I'd

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Speaker 6: be in which would be to interview with her. And

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Speaker 6: when I had that opportunity, unlike Andy, I researched like

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Speaker 6: crazy for how I would show up that day.

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Speaker 3: You prepared, Yeah, I prepared.

442
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 6: And there were multiple articles written about what to wear

443
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 6: and what not to wear the first time.

444
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 3: You meet Anna. So what are you supposed to wear

445
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 3: and what are you not supposed to wear? Right?

446
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 6: Well, interestingly, a lot of the articles say not to

447
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 6: wear black, that she doesn't like black, and this has

448
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 6: kind of been like a long rumor for her that

449
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,679
Speaker 6: she's just like prefers color and brightness. Upon meeting her like,

450
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,199
Speaker 6: I don't think it would have mattered at all what

451
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:26,679
Speaker 6: I wore, and so it was kind of like it

452
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 6: was like deeply humbling to be like, oh, it's like

453
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,159
Speaker 6: this big character that exists that's larger than life character,

454
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 6: but you're actually just like a person that's trying to

455
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 6: make the proper business and editorial decision for this brand

456
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 6: that you oversee. It was a big wake up moment

457
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 6: because I planned so much for what I was gonna wear,

458
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,360
Speaker 6: and I bought myself a Gucci handbag and I.

459
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 3: Practically wore it hanging around my neck.

460
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 6: None of it was necessary, Like she really just wanted

461
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 6: to talk about my editorial experience and like my taste

462
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 6: in like culture. So it was definitely one of those

463
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 6: myth busting moments obviously, and she wasn't wearing sunglasses.

464
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 3: Either, by the way.

465
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 5: Okay, I love all the behind the scenes interview stuff,

466
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 5: but I have to say, the points to me to

467
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 5: made about Andy not preparing for her interview is like

468
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 5: the least relatable thing to us as journalists, Like why

469
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 5: would you not prepare for an interview where you're trying

470
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 5: to prove you want to be a serious journalist?

471
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so weird to me, Right, you would at

472
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 3: least just do some research. And also it's hard.

473
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: To believe that any woman in America who wanted to

474
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 1: work in media would just not know who the editor

475
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: of the biggest fashion magazine in the world was. Like,

476
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: that is still a big job in media any person

477
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: in America.

478
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels true.

479
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 1: But the idea that Anna is actually a much more

480
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 1: complex character than the cultural characterization of her isn't surprising, right.

481
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 3: Or the cultural caricature of her in a way. Yeah,

482
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 3: and that's something that I feel like you discuss a

483
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 3: lot in your work.

484
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's something we keep

485
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 5: coming up against in this podcast, which is there's often

486
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 5: more complexity to the characters we're looking at, actually with women.

487
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think we've seen that a lot with

488
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: people like Robin Gibvens, whose identities are so flattened by

489
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: these characterizations of them, or Britney Spears who had her

490
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: complexity denied and was just dismissed as crazy. And in general,

491
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: I think that's what's really smart about this movie, going

492
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: back to Double Warsprata, which is that it takes something

493
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 1: that is also dismissed as frivolous and for women fashion

494
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: fashion magazines, and it explores the ways in which they're

495
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: actually serious and worthy of examination.

496
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, isn't there a famous scene where Miranda Priestley sort

497
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 5: of schools Andy in how she got her sweater or

498
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 5: something like that.

499
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,719
Speaker 1: Yes, the speech you're thinking of is the Cyrillian speech,

500
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: which is a color blue. They're in a meeting and

501
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: someone has presented Miranda with two belts, and Andy has snickered,

502
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: and so those two belts look exactly the same to me,

503
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: and she's sort of expecting everyone to be like, haha, yes,

504
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: but Miranda is really icy in her retort.

505
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 7: You select, I don't know that lumpy blue sweater, for instance,

506
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 7: because you're trying to tell the world that you take

507
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 7: yourself too seriously to care about what you put on

508
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 7: your back.

509
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: But what you don't know is that.

510
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 3: That sweater is not just blue.

511
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 7: It's not torquois, it's not lapist, it's actually ceruleum.

512
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 1: And it was introduced on this runway and that runway

513
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 1: until you fished it out of some bargain basement. It's

514
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: like a very funny moment, and that speech has become

515
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: pretty famous because it does, in a really succinct way,

516
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: explain why fashion does have meaning in people's lives, why

517
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: our lives are all impacted by the way fashion works.

518
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 5: Right, And so she's basically saying, you think you chose

519
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 5: that sweater, but actually, let me tell you that sweater

520
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 5: chose you.

521
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Susie.

522
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 5: I want to go back for a moment to the

523
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 5: Miranda character in the book, because the book is actually

524
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 5: pretty vitriolic.

525
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: I mean I reread the book last night, actually, and

526
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: it is so vitriolic, like kind of in a shocking

527
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: way to me now looking back it points book Andy

528
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: calls book Miranda a bitch. She talks about how much

529
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: she hates her. I mean, my takeaway from the book

530
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: is that the author hated working for Anna Wintour.

531
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 3: Not a lot of complexity, It's like, that's what it is.

532
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a pretty one dimensional character and she's just awful.

533
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: And interestingly, the limo scene is not in the book

534
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 1: at all. The ending plays out completely differently. So in

535
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: the book, the way their relationship ends is that Andy

536
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: says to Miranda, fuck you, Miranda, fuck you.

537
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: Wow.

538
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: She's fired obviously for swearing at her boss. And the

539
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 1: whole thing in the movie about how Miranda writes her

540
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: a good reference and there's kind of this redemption moment

541
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: from Miranda that doesn't happen in the book at all.

542
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 5: Okay, so this is like a revenge totally essentially, like

543
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 5: She's She's chin.

544
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 3: It's like a revenge fantasy. Right. I don't think this

545
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 3: happened in real life.

546
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: So I think this is like the book she's written

547
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: about what she wishes she had done when she left Vogue, right,

548
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what it feels like.

549
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 3: Is a reader for sure?

550
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 5: So do people like this book? Is the book bad?

551
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 5: What's the response?

552
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: Like?

553
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the book is controversial, much more so than

554
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: the film because it is really a takedown. And I

555
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: guess at this time it was seen as sort of

556
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: bad manners to gossip about your former boss in this way,

557
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: which feels kind of quaint now like in the post

558
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 1: Cocker era.

559
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 3: But it's like literally aronde.

560
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

561
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: But The New York Times actually had two negative reviews

562
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: of this book, and the first one was written by

563
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: famed critic Janet Maslin where she refers to it as

564
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: a mean spirited gotcha of a book, and the other

565
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: one is called Anna Dearist, and it has this line

566
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: that is so interesting because I think in a lot

567
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: of ways it encapsulates kind of what we're talking about

568
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: in a larger sense. Here she had a ringside seat

569
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: at one of the great editorial franchises, but she seems

570
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: to have understood almost nothing about the isolation and pressure

571
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 1: of the job her boss was doing, or what it

572
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 1: might cost a person like Miranda Priestley to become a

573
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 1: character like Miranda Priestley.

574
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 5: Hmmm, I bet that was written by a woman.

575
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: Yes, it was written by a woman, And I think

576
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: it is the truth that these jobs do come with

577
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 1: isolation and pressure.

578
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: It is a reality that it's not quite so simple.

579
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: And so the movie really makes an effort to humanize

580
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 1: Miranda in a lot of ways.

581
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 3: Right moving Miranda is more complicated. Yeah.

582
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: The director has actually said that early versions of the

583
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: script even felt too vengeful, and I suspect what he

584
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: is leaving kind of unsaid in that is that's because

585
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: the book was vengeful, right, It was this like really

586
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: mean spirited book. So when it comes time to make

587
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: the movie, the movie is being made by people who

588
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: probably have had these senior positions right there, are two

589
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,719
Speaker 1: scenes that give you a real window into Miranda's personal

590
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: life and what her career has cost her on that front.

591
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: In the movie, at one point, Miranda is having an

592
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: argument with her husband and Andy walks in, and the

593
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: argument is about how she's missed a lunch with him,

594
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: and he says, you know, I could tell everyone was

595
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: looking at me and thinking, there he is waiting for

596
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: her again, which feels, you know, like a thing a

597
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,239
Speaker 1: lot of women go through when they're more successful than

598
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: their partner. And then later in Paris, there's this very

599
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: vulnerable scene where she tells Andy she's getting a divorce.

600
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: Miranda's without her usual armor, she has no makeup on,

601
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: and she's in a robe, and she talks about knowing

602
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: what they will write about her. Dragon Lady, career obsessed

603
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: no Clean, drives away another mister Priestley, and she tears

604
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: up as she laments what it will do to her daughters.

605
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 5: Actually, I had forgotten until you were mentioning the Harry

606
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 5: Potter part of the movie that she even had daughters

607
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 5: like that too. Is an interesting thing because you expect

608
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 5: a woman of the stature, or a woman who behaves

609
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 5: like this to be this career as who doesn't have

610
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 5: a family, right.

611
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: And what's kind of interesting in this moment in the

612
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: movie is that when Andy expresses sympathy for her and says,

613
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: you know, is there anything else I can do? Miranda

614
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: kind of snaps back into being her self, you know,

615
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: for lack of a better way of putting it, and

616
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: she just says, yes, your job, And that is kind

617
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: of the encapsulation, right, Like she's had this moment of vulnerability,

618
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: but then she has to keep going, Like what choice

619
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: does she have? You know, she is the editor of

620
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: Runway at Paris Fashion Week.

621
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 3: She can't fall apart.

622
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: And you know, EW did an oral history of the

623
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: film and the director said something that I thought was

624
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: really interesting. He said that in his vision, Miranda is

625
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: the heroine of the piece, not the villain, because it's

626
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: a coming of age story for Andy to learn about

627
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: what it takes to be great at something, Isn't.

628
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 3: That So that's interesting?

629
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 5: Yes, So it's really about how she Miranda was ultimately successful,

630
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 5: not just a terrible visit, right, Like, it's really.

631
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: A movie about what it costs to be Miranda and

632
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,239
Speaker 1: teaching Andy that she may not think it's okay, but

633
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: Eventually she's gonna have to make some of these hard

634
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: choices too, And that is really why the Limo moment

635
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: is so critical to the film and why I chose it.

636
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 1: It's fundamentally a film about what it costs to have

637
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: this kind of life, this kind of career, the isolation,

638
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: the pressure, and that's something I think Meryl Streep really

639
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: conveys in this portrayal, and why in a lot of ways,

640
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: Andy feels hopelessly naive to me. You know, even when

641
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: I saw this the first time, it seemed to me

642
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: like Andy had a lot of growing up to do.

643
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 5: So Susie, we you know, obviously both related to this movie.

644
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 5: I think when we first saw it in a different

645
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 5: way than we might now, Like back then we were

646
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 5: aspiring journalists or young journalists, and now we're more the

647
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 5: established journalists. So I was curious for you, I mean,

648
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 5: you have run really big newsrooms, You've been a boss

649
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 5: in a lot of these jobs. What do you think

650
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 5: the costs of that success have been for you? If any?

651
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: I think for me the costs are really personal in

652
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: terms of just how I operate in the world, Like

653
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: it takes a lot out of you just physically to

654
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: do these jobs, you have to be willing to work

655
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: just an enormous amount of hours, and you have to

656
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: be emotionally available to a very large group of people

657
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: because you're managing a big team, and all of those

658
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: things take a toll on you, right. I think there

659
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: are people that can do these jobs that don't have

660
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: that experience, that learn to have a set of clear

661
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: walls where they're not sort of taking in a lot

662
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: of the energy around them. Or frankly, I think we

663
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: know because there have been studies that a lot of

664
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: leaders are actually sociopaths or psychopaths.

665
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 3: I think is what the studies say that says leaders

666
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 3: are sociopaths.

667
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's one study I remember reading the claim that

668
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: as many as one in five business leaders have some

669
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: psychopathic tendencies.

670
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: So that's twenty percent. I'm so surprised by that.

671
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: So I think if you are able to have that

672
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: kind of separation from you and the people whose lives

673
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: you you know, to some degree hold in your hands

674
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: when you're managing a large team, I think it can

675
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: be a lot easier. But for me personally, that has

676
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: been a real struggle, and I think it kind of

677
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: has re oriented me in terms of how I think

678
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: about ambition and whether or not I want to have

679
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: these big jobs, whether or not I think these big

680
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: jobs make sense anymore.

681
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think that the headline here is

682
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 5: that we hold women leaders to higher standards. Like I

683
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 5: guess Miranda Priestley, I don't know that she was in

684
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 5: a position like you were speaking of where she really

685
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 5: cared about the emotional well being of her entire staff.

686
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 5: It was more like she was in charge of she

687
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 5: had these assistants. But like, we expect women leaders to

688
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 5: be nice, and we don't expect male leaders to be nice.

689
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 5: So was Miranda Priestley kind of a bit sometimes? Like yeah,

690
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 5: but if she was a man, would we call her

691
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 5: a bitch or would we just call her demand decisive?

692
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 3: Right?

693
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 5: And so you know, she clearly put andy or her

694
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 5: assistance or whatever in precarious situations.

695
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,720
Speaker 3: But that's happened a million times before.

696
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 5: And so I think that what me know is that

697
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 5: there's this likability trade off for women, like the more

698
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 5: power they gained, the less we like them, statistically proven

699
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 5: time and time again. And it applies to business or

700
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 5: it applies to politics, and so women are always having

701
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 5: to adjust their demeanor to try to make up for this.

702
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 5: And I think what Miranda Priestley, he represents as someone

703
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 5: who wasn't willing to adjust her demeanor, and thus she

704
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 5: was kind of like a frigid ice cool.

705
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 3: Ice queen pitch. But is that fair? You know, It's

706
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 3: a little more complicated than that.

707
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I do think this is something when you're

708
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: a woman in a leadership position, you're constantly trying to

709
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: thread the needle on right, because on the one hand,

710
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: you need to be somewhat decisive and you need to

711
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: be someone who moves things through. You can't just be

712
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: like spending all your time being emotionally accessible or whatever.

713
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I think my entire career

714
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 1: I have been given the note that I need to

715
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: soften myself. I need to be less blunt, I need

716
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: to work a little less quickly and assume that people

717
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: aren't always following Like. Those are notes I've gotten repeatedly

718
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: in my career, and I think I really struggle with

719
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: that still because I am not naturally like a very soft,

720
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: sweet person, you know. It's like I am pretty blunt

721
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: and straightforward, and I sort of think that's one of

722
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: my strengths.

723
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 3: Well, that's kind of what you need to be a leader,

724
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 3: in fact.

725
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: But as I've gotten older, I can see when it

726
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 1: has an impact on someone, and I try and dial

727
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: it down because I recognize that not everyone can deal

728
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: with that well.

729
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 3: And that's part of the pressure.

730
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 5: Right You're in charge of all these people and to

731
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 5: some degree they're well being, but you have to discipline.

732
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 5: There is hard stuff. Sometimes you have to do layoffs.

733
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 5: Thankfully I've never had to do that, but I can

734
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 5: imagine that's hard no matter who you are.

735
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: Oh god, I can't believe you've never had to do

736
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: a layoff. That is really lucky in this media environment.

737
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 1: But just even aside from those pressures, it's just hard

738
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: to show up as your best self every single day. Right,

739
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: Sometimes you just don't, or you make mistakes and the

740
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: stakes feel higher because you're the boss and everyone's paying attention.

741
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 5: Right, Like a bad day can have more extreme consequences.

742
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean everyone I know in the leadership position

743
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: struggles with that at times. And actually we have a

744
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: friend who runs a newsroom who said to me recently,

745
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: it's not fun to be in charge anymore. And that

746
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: makes sense to me. Right, people are just so self

747
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: conscious all the time. They're so worried they're going to

748
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: do something that's going to get them canceled in some way.

749
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 5: Which I guess is good on the one hand, like

750
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 5: that we're all more conscious of creating the kind of

751
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 5: workplaces we want to be in, but it's also complicated.

752
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: I think part of the reason I have sometimes felt

753
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: like I'm groping around in the dark trying to figure

754
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: out how to be a good leader is that there

755
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: just weren't a lot of great.

756
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 3: Examples of leadership.

757
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: You know. Most of the leadership I saw was Miranda

758
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: Priestley type leadership.

759
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 3: From men and women.

760
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: So it's not like there were all these models for

761
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: me that I could be like, Okay, here's who I'm

762
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: trying to be. I was sort of trying to figure

763
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 1: it out on my own. I'm still trying to figure

764
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: it out to some degree.

765
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's still not great models, to be honest.

766
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 5: I mean, I think that's why we've seen a lot

767
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 5: of women leaders who rise up really quickly and then

768
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 5: immediately get shot down. Yeah.

769
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: And that actually leads me to something I want to

770
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: talk about, which is the whole girl boss thing from

771
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: a few years ago. I've always joked that all these

772
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: toxic girl bosses were just women who saw the Devilwar's

773
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: praduct and instead of seeing it as a cautionary tale,

774
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: they saw it as a path to success.

775
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 5: Right.

776
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: They agreed with Miranda Priestley that everybody wanted this life,

777
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: that for better or for worse, she is a depiction

778
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: of unapologetic female power, and we don't see that a lot.

779
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 3: So they emulated it. Wait, should we define the girl boss?

780
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 5: So this was a term that was popularized in twenty

781
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 5: fourteen when Sophia Amarusso, who had founded a wildly successful

782
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 5: company called Nasty Gut, wrote a book called girl Boss,

783
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 5: and girl Boss was framed as the reaction to lean In,

784
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 5: which was Sheryl Sandberg's blockbuster.

785
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 3: Debating Sparti shrl Samdberg, her brand new book is generating

786
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:05,919
Speaker 3: a kind of feminist firestorm.

787
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 4: She calls it leaning in, gunning for the corner office,

788
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 4: not the cubicle.

789
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 5: And so if Leanan was saying, like, you know, go strive,

790
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 5: rise up the corporate ladder, girl Boss was saying like, no, actually,

791
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 5: you can be scrappy. You don't have to come from money.

792
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 5: You can do it your way, and over time there

793
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 5: was this generation of leaders who rose really quickly and

794
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 5: were very you know, media savvy. They were all very attractive.

795
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 5: They like started populating the cover of every magazine and

796
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 5: they were sort of heralded as this new generation of

797
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 5: women leaders. But a lot of their businesses failed, a

798
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 5: lot of them were criticized for various things, and so

799
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 5: ultimately that term now is more of a pejorative, Like

800
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 5: it's used on TikTok to like criticize people who are

801
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 5: seen as too ambitious. There's that phrase, don't girl boss

802
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 5: too close to the sun. They had too much unbridled

803
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 5: ambition and came to bite them in the ass.

804
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: Right, Because there's also that meme gaslight girl boss gatekeep right,

805
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: Like it's basically talking about how the girl bosses were

806
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: actually also positions of privilege and they sort of gate

807
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: kept other people out of the arena. But I feel

808
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: like part of what the issue is is there isn't

809
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: really a clear definition of what a girl boss is.

810
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 5: I mean, it's a fake word, Like it's a made

811
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 5: up word that was created as a joke and then

812
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 5: became a real thing, And like why are we calling

813
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 5: women girl bosses anyway, they should just be bosses. So

814
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 5: I sort of am like, you can't define that, Like

815
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 5: it came to represent a striver.

816
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: Right, like a very earnest striver who embraced a certain

817
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: kind of corporate feminism. Yes, and equality in this world

818
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: was just like getting to be the boss. You were

819
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: an unapologetically ambitious woman like Miranda, but with a feminine twist.

820
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: So like, if you're a girl boss, you're less threatening

821
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 1: in a way. Right, You're certainly not the crazed, desperate

822
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: career women of the eighties we talked about in the

823
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: news Week marriage episode. Right, You're not Glennon Close in

824
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: Fatal Attraction. You're like a fashionable and millennial pink feminist.

825
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 5: Well, and in some ways the media and society has

826
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 5: enforced that by adding girl in front of your title.

827
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: But ultimately the girl boss, as you said, was pretty limited.

828
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: And Amanda Mull wrote a great piece in the Atlantic

829
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: where she talked about why that was. So there was

830
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 1: some idea that there was equality just based on advancement, right,

831
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 1: it kind of ties capitalism up with female equality, which

832
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 1: I think feels inherently flawed. And then she said something

833
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: that I thought was really smart, she said. The girl

834
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,879
Speaker 1: Boss argued that the professional success of ambitious young women

835
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: was a two birds, one stone type of activism. Their

836
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: pursuit of power could be rebranded as a righteous quest

837
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: free quality, and the success of female executives and entrepreneurs

838
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: would lift up the women below them. But that's not

839
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: really what we In fact, even the person who popularized

840
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: the term girl boss, this woman, Sophia Marusso. She eventually resigned.

841
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: The company went into bankruptcy a couple of years after

842
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: that book came out, and there were a number of

843
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: complaints about discrimination and toxic management, accompanied by lawsuits from

844
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 1: her employees.

845
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think it's slightly more complex, Like

846
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 5: a lot of these stories and quote unquote downfalls were

847
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 5: flattened a bit in the media narrative. I'm actually profiling

848
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 5: Sophia now for a piece for l and so it's

849
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 5: been interesting to actually dig into what really happened versus

850
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 5: how the media that I hate saying, yea, we are

851
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 5: the media portrayed it. But certainly it represented something right,

852
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,240
Speaker 5: and I think she wasn't the only one. In fairness

853
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 5: to her, there were a slew of other examples of

854
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 5: female leaders who were lauded as girl bosses or who

855
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 5: leaned into that branding eventually came under scrutiny and were

856
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 5: forced to step away from the companies they founded. Just like,

857
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 5: off the top of my head, there's the CEO of Glossier,

858
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 5: the luggage brand away to that woman who ran things Underwear.

859
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 5: I think you know, there was a shift at a

860
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 5: certain point in what was perceived as acceptable boss behavior,

861
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 5: particularly for these companies and these founders who had brandoned

862
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 5: themselves as socially conscious, if not overtly feminists.

863
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: And I think also what you're saying is is that

864
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: these power structures were built by men. So if these

865
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: women were replicating these power structures, it wasn't like they

866
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: were doing something unique. It's just the case that if

867
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: you're a woman, you're more likely to face an immediate backlash.

868
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: Look at Elon Musk, I mean, he has had a

869
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: million of these kinds of complaints around him.

870
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 5: Right, Or Adam Newman of WeWork or Travis Kalanek of Uber.

871
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:54,240
Speaker 3: And all three of those men are fine.

872
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,280
Speaker 1: And actually Semita muka pot I, who we spoke to earlier,

873
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: and as I mentioned, is right a book about women

874
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: work and Ambition also talks about the hypocrisy she sees

875
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: in the Girl Boss downfall.

876
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 6: I'm always cautious when we too eagerly tear women down.

877
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 6: I'm not going to all women's matter this or something obviously,

878
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 6: like women are capable of the same heinous atrocities and

879
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 6: labor oversights as men. But I do think that when

880
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 6: we go after women for a specific behavior that is

881
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 6: considered completely normal in men, you know, my eyebrows raise

882
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 6: a little bit. I'm like, yes, no leader should be toxic.

883
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 6: We should absolutely be creating environments that are equitable. We

884
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 6: should not expect people to work and sacrifice everything. None

885
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 6: of those things are sustainable. They are not things that

886
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 6: we should support in workplaces. But also they are a

887
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 6: result of under resourced environments. Right often women led companies

888
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 6: don't get as much money as male led companies. Definitely

889
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 6: true for startups in a ridiculous way. And then you

890
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 6: add to that these kinds toxic dynamics or leaders that

891
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 6: don't have enough experience to successfully lead in those kinds

892
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 6: of environments, or a lot of times people that would

893
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 6: fit into this Girl Boss mold the very characteristics that

894
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 6: make them good for those roles. Are literally what makes

895
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 6: them bad as leaders. Yeah, you know, so like being

896
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 6: like judiciously committed to your vision, being really good on stage,

897
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 6: being really good in the press. It's like those people

898
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 6: are monsters behind the scenes, right. But putting that to

899
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 6: the side, the majority of women that are starting businesses

900
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 6: aren't these kind of quote unquote girl bosses, right. They're

901
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 6: young women that are trying to find their voice and

902
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 6: their name or a lot of times women become entrepreneurs

903
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 6: because they hit the glass ceiling at work and they

904
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 6: were not getting the recognition that they deserved, and so

905
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 6: they decided to go out on their own. And so,

906
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 6: you know, it is worrisome when you focus a lot

907
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 6: on a small number of people when there's this kind

908
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 6: of like broader ecosystem of women trying to create things

909
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 6: on their own terms.

910
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: Samita has written about how while the girl boss concept

911
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: is flawed, it did provide a model for women who

912
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: don't always see a path to leadership, like women of

913
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: color and people like Samita and I are often excluded

914
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,479
Speaker 1: from those kinds of spaces. So there are some things

915
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: about this that weren't all bad. But you know, any

916
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 1: model of female leadership generally does eventually face a backlash, right,

917
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: I mean, we've just seen that in this country, any

918
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 1: kind of female advancement eventually faces a backlash.

919
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, And in fact, I think we're seeing that more now,

920
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 5: Like after these girl Bosses, these so called girl bosses toppled,

921
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 5: a lot of the investment to female founded companies actually

922
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 5: went down.

923
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: By the way, investment to female companies was always really low.

924
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: And that's also partially what was kind of interesting about

925
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: this being a media sort of created story. Women receive

926
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: I think less than two percent of VC funding, so

927
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: there were never a huge number of girl Bosses to

928
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: start with. So the disproportionate attention they got in the

929
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: beginning and then in the backlash is also indicative of

930
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: something which is we love a story about a woman

931
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: rising and then folly. That's just the thing we love

932
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: in this country. Also, it's probably worth noting that, in

933
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: terms of the backlash, the Miranda Priestleys or in the

934
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 1: real world, the Animinturs of the world didn't emerge completely unscathed,

935
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: but interestingly not really about their years of boundaryless or

936
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: potentially inappropriate leadership styles. You know, I think when Black

937
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: Lives Matter happened, there was a lot more focus on

938
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 1: the ways in which fashion and fashion magazines really reinforced

939
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 1: a certain kind of wayness. And you know, Anna did

940
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 1: have to apologize for that. In June of twenty twenty,

941
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: after facing a lot of criticism, she issued an apology

942
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: for not doing enough to address diversity issues at Vogue,

943
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: and she said, I want to say plainly that I

944
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: know Vogue has not found ways to elevate and give

945
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: space to black editors, writers, photographers, designers and other creators.

946
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: We have made mistakes to publishing images or stories that

947
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: have been hurtful or intolerant. I take full responsibility for

948
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: those mistakes.

949
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 5: I mean, pretty big a deal that she like she's

950
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 5: not the type to stand down or apologize.

951
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: I don't think Yeah, I don't think so either, But

952
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 1: I think this was obviously a more serious allegation in.

953
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 5: Some way well, and then also interesting that she was

954
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 5: able to keep her right.

955
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 3: She get her job after that apology, right.

956
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: Unlike the girl bosses who've kind of toppled and then

957
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 1: maybe found their way back in some smaller way, she

958
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: has stayed on top of the Conde Nast editorial operation.

959
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: And obviously I don't want to conflate white supremacy bias

960
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: with slightly toxic or even very toxic behavior. This is

961
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: obviously a deeper issue, but it shows that she had

962
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: sort of gone from being immune to this kind of criticism.

963
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: At the point in which the doublewares Prada is made,

964
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: it didn't lead to some kind of backlash towards her, like, oh,

965
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: I can't believe you treat people this way. It was

966
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: considered kind of charming or funny or whatever. And now

967
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: she's sort of gotten to the point where she's not

968
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: given a pass completely in that way. And actually that

969
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: same year, in twenty twenty two, a few months later,

970
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: The New York Times published a really lengthy piece asking

971
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 1: if her diversity push had come too late, and former

972
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: employees said that Anna had fostered a workplace that sidelined

973
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: women of color, and you know, she had helped set

974
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 1: a standard that favored white, eurocentric notions of beauty, which

975
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: you know isn't a surprise. That's something you also see

976
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: in the movie, right, there's a real central focus in

977
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: the movie about a very sort of classic beauty standard.

978
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: There's a lot of focus on on thinness in the movie.

979
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 1: There's like this famous line where Emily, the first assistant, says,

980
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,879
Speaker 1: I'm just one stomach flew away from my goal weight,

981
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: which is like a thing me and my friends always

982
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: jokingly say to each other people, Yeah, everyone says that, right,

983
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: or or said maybe gen Z say that.

984
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe they have more sense than we did.

985
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: And you know, it wasn't just Anna who set these standards,

986
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: but as arguably the most powerful person in fashion, she

987
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 1: did play a large role.

988
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 3: In this kind of centering.

989
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 5: The other thing, too, is that, in particular for women

990
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 5: of color, but really for any marginalized group, is that

991
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 5: you are often forced to represent your entire demographic.

992
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: Right, So if you're a gay leader, there's also this expectation.

993
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: If you're a translator, it's like you're doing more than

994
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: just your job. You're representing an entire category of people,

995
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: and your success or failure carries out weight. And I

996
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: do think to some degree that gets back to this

997
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: idea or this thing I was saying at the top,

998
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: which is it does feel like you're carrying a lot

999
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: of weight in these jobs. You know, you're not immune

1000
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: to the understanding that you're not just representing yourself. Like

1001
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: when I was given the opportunity to run newsrooms. I

1002
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: was almost always the only woman of color or the

1003
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,479
Speaker 1: first woman of color to have that opportunity in that role.

1004
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: So I was clear that I wasn't just you know,

1005
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: doing a job, but I was also representing a kind

1006
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: of progress. And if I did it badly or if

1007
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:29,720
Speaker 1: I embarrassed myself, I.

1008
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 3: Was letting down, letting much more than just my own

1009
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 3: mental health, you know. I mean, yeah, more than just

1010
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 3: yourself or your employees.

1011
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 5: You're letting down like everyone who strived to be in

1012
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 5: a role like that and who maybe had not gone

1013
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 5: the opportunity well.

1014
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 1: And also the other thing I think is that you

1015
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: recognize that you are the representation for a lot of people,

1016
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: like I recognize that.

1017
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 3: In those roles.

1018
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 1: There were women in the newsroom who saw me in

1019
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: that role and were like, oh, I can do that too.

1020
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: So if I did it poorly or I was not

1021
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: a good example, that I was not setting a good

1022
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: example for them. I was not giving them a path

1023
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 1: because they were like, well, I don't want to be

1024
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: that bitch, you know.

1025
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 3: So, which is terror I mean terrifying. Yeah, it on you,

1026
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 3: like I do think it does take a real toll.

1027
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm someone who struggles with a lot of anxiety.

1028
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: I have in my life had very serious depression, and

1029
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: it is the case that when I am in these jobs,

1030
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 1: it triggers a lot of those issues for me. And

1031
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,399
Speaker 1: the reason I often leave these jobs is because I've

1032
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: gotten to a point where I no longer feel like

1033
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: I can balance and I need to sort of step

1034
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: away to recenter myself. And I think that is a

1035
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: good segue into kind of where we are now in

1036
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: terms of how we're thinking about work as women and

1037
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 1: where women's ambition is.

1038
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 3: You know, where does all of this leave us?

1039
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: Like if we're not going to be the Miranda Priestley's,

1040
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: we're not going to be the Sheryl Sandbergs, We're not

1041
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: going to be the girl bosses, Like what's left now?

1042
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 3: Quiet quitting, great resignation.

1043
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: It's like, I feel like it's kind of the end

1044
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 1: of ambition in my mind, right, I think, well, do

1045
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 1: we want to have it all? I don't want to

1046
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: have it all anymore. I just want to have enough.

1047
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 5: So, as you know, I am very skeptical of all

1048
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 5: of these little phrases enter into No, it's not the

1049
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 5: end of ambition.

1050
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,240
Speaker 3: And also when we talk about ambition.

1051
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 5: Are we really just talking about women's ambition, like nobody asks,

1052
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 5: is it the end of ambition for men? That's true,

1053
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 5: And yet these trends, these memes, this kind of linguistic

1054
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 5: popularity of terms like yeah, lazy girl jobs or quiet

1055
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 5: quitting or I don't dream of labor. Like everything that

1056
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 5: you see on TikTok these days, which is essentially anti

1057
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 5: work rhetoric, is largely being pushed by people of all genders.

1058
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 3: So I don't know.

1059
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 5: I do think that like gender bias even into the

1060
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 5: way that sometimes I talk about this issue. But I

1061
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 5: also think that, you know, there's a little bit of

1062
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 5: like delightful in a way idealism when it comes to

1063
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 5: young people, but also naivity about the fact that like,

1064
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 5: all right, kids, you gotta work. Yeah, yeah, I want

1065
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 5: to be a lazy girl too. I'd love to bedrod

1066
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 5: all day, Like that would be awesome.

1067
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 3: I don't want to have a job. I know, i'd

1068
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 3: be great. God, let's just sell there all day. Yeah,

1069
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 3: Like what other terms can we insert here?

1070
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 5: You know, but like you still need money to live

1071
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 5: and I know that like sure, we'd want to reject

1072
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 5: capitalism and blah blah blah, but like, we're still living in

1073
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 5: a capitalist society, and so I take some of this

1074
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 5: anti work rhetoric with a grain of salt, though I

1075
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 5: do believe that hopefully by questioning things like this girbast

1076
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 5: culture or hustle culture, or the way that we have

1077
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 5: devoted our entire beings and entities to work over the

1078
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 5: past ten twenty year, yours is a good thing.

1079
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1080
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: I want to throw to Semeta one more time because

1081
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: she had something interesting to say about this too. Workplace

1082
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: hierarchy isn't really going anywhere anytime soon, right, Like, we

1083
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: have to figure out how management structures that are equitable,

1084
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,959
Speaker 1: that work, that play to people's strengths, that support them

1085
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: in being as innovative and creative and impactful as possible.

1086
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,879
Speaker 1: That's why I think we're frozen in time right now,

1087
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: because we know that we don't want this kind of

1088
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,879
Speaker 1: unfettered ambition at any cost. Toxic workplay is all bad,

1089
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: all bad words. We know we don't want that, but

1090
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 1: we don't know how to apply that in our lives yet.

1091
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: I think that's led to this trend in like quiet

1092
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: quitting or lazy girl jobs, or people really calling it

1093
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 1: in at work, which ultimately isn't going to actually make

1094
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: people happy, right, What actually makes you happy in your

1095
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 1: life is living a life of integrity and authenticity and joy.

1096
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,439
Speaker 1: When you're checked out of something, you're not finding joy

1097
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 1: in your life, and that's fine.

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00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:55,320
Speaker 3: I think we all go through phases. We have to

1099
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 3: do that.

1100
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 6: But that's not a model for women's advancement in the workplace.

1101
00:55:58,840 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 1: Right.

1102
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 6: It's a problem and it's a wake up call for

1103
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:05,360
Speaker 6: working conditions, but it's not ultimately a strategy that's going

1104
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 6: to be successful or make us happy if that's ultimately

1105
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 6: the goal.

1106
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 5: I think Samina is right, and this isn't the end

1107
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 5: of ambition generally, but it's hopefully a workplace shift that

1108
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 5: is happening, Susie. Where does that then leave you?

1109
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess what I'm doing is projecting to

1110
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 1: some degree, because maybe it's just the end of my ambition.

1111
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: Like maybe the reason those memes speak to me is

1112
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: that I have come to kind of want a quieter

1113
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 1: career when where I have less responsibilities, one where I

1114
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 1: get to chat with you.

1115
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,760
Speaker 3: But I will just say, that's not unambitious.

1116
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 5: That's a different kind of ambition, And so I think

1117
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 5: part of the problem is that we have come to

1118
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 5: define ambition in these really rigid ways that involved yeah,

1119
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,720
Speaker 5: climbing for the corporate ladder, being a boss, like having

1120
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 5: a big team, being in management, and there are so

1121
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 5: many different ways to be ambitious, and so I guess

1122
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 5: that's what kind of gives me hope to what you're saying.

1123
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, that's actually a really good point. I've never

1124
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 3: thought about it that way.

1125
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 1: It's true that I'm not lacking in any ambition, it's

1126
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 1: just my ambitions have really changed. I'm not trying to

1127
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 1: get the bigger job. I'm not always trying to get

1128
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: the bigger paycheck. I'm just trying to do work I love,

1129
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: and work that feels creative, and work that I hope

1130
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: is kind of meaningful or it's certainly at least meaningful

1131
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 1: to me, even if it's not that for everyone else.

1132
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: So that's actually a nice way to think about where

1133
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: that leaves us, and maybe we leave it there.

1134
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 5: Susie, I want to use our next episode. We're going

1135
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 5: to be talking about what it means for a woman

1136
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 5: to be quote.

1137
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 1: Past her prime, which I don't think happens for the record,

1138
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 1: but we are going to talk about aging and what

1139
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: that means for us, but also just how women are

1140
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 1: treated as they age in the culture. So I think

1141
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: it's going to be a really interesting one.

1142
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 3: This is in Retrospect. Thanks for listening.

1143
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking

1144
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: about and want us to explore in a future episode.

1145
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com or find

1146
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at in retropod.

1147
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 5: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us

1148
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 5: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen.

1149
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 3: If you hate it, you can post nasty comments on

1150
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 3: our Instagram, which we may or may not delete.

1151
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett

1152
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: and at Susi b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books

1153
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club and.

1154
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 3: This Is eighteen.

1155
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 5: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media.

1156
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 5: Lauren Anson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our

1157
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 5: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharon

1158
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 5: Atia is our researcher and associate producer.

1159
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our

1160
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Ana Stemp and Katrina Norbel.

1161
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagrams. Our mixing engineer is Amanda

1162
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 1: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. We are

1163
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: your hosts Susie Bannacarum and Jessica Bennett.

1164
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 3: We are also executive producers.

1165
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 5: For even more, check out in retropod dot com.

1166
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 3: See you next week