1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: On September fourteenth, twenty fourteen, twenty three year old Hannah 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: Witherich and twenty four year old David Miller, who'd only 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: just met by chance on Catau, were talking at the 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: Ac Bar. The pair, both from the UK, left the 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: bar together around one am. It was the last time 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: either of them was seen alive. Early the next morning, 7 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: on September fifteenth, a beach cleaner found their partially clad bodies. 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: David was floating in the water, Hannah was found on 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: the sand, the waves lapping over her. Near the crime 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: scene was a pile of clothes, cigarette butts, and a 11 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: used condom. Detectives discovered a garden hoe covered in blood 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: near their bodies, and autopsy revealed that David had scratches 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: on his back and water in his lungs, indicating he'd drowned. 14 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: Hannah's body was covered and bruising and scratches. Their death 15 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: sparked international outrage and questions about a lack of justice 16 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: on Katau. Welcome to Death Island, a production of Katie's 17 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: Studios and iHeartRadio episode four, The Case of Hannah Witherich 18 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: and David Miller Too. 19 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 2: I'm Connor Powell, an investigative journalist at KAT Studios with 20 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: Stephanie Lydecker, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew Arnow and Jeff Shane. We 21 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 2: left off last episode speaking with reporter Jonathan Samuels, who 22 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: was a foreign correspondent based in Australia at the time 23 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: for Sky News. 24 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 3: We have an incident where one morning at breakfast in 25 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 3: the hotel where all the journalists were staying, one of 26 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: my colleagues was pretty shaken actually, and he said that 27 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 3: he'd had a knock on his door in the middle 28 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 3: of the night and it answered the door and there 29 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: was a local guy on the other side basically warning 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 3: him off, telling him it was time to leave the 31 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 3: island and not to ask any more questions. And he'd 32 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 3: been pretty shaken up by that. I don't think he'd 33 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 3: ever sort of had that experience before where someone had 34 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 3: actually threatened him for simply doing his job. 35 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: The investigation was under scrutiny around the world. 36 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 2: Within days, more than sixty police were sent to Kotel, 37 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: including Police Lieutenant General Panya Maymon, who was sent from 38 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: the mainland and was brought in to oversee the investigation. 39 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 2: It was a real show of force. 40 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: Authur Sue Buchanan lived on Thailand for years and wrote 41 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: the book The Curse of the Turtle, the true story 42 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: of Thailand's backpacker murders. She shares her thoughts on this development. 43 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 4: And then completely mind blew me when a few days later, 44 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 4: Montreu Atiuichian is then taken in for questioning and he 45 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 4: goes to Panya Maimon goes to the TAYPBS newspaper and says, 46 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 4: we've identified this guy. It's Montreu Atiuichian and his nephew, 47 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:05,559 Speaker 4: Nonsa Juchian. He said, we've got video footage implicates them. 48 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 3: Suddenly it felt like perhaps the police were putting things together. 49 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 3: You know, would this guy Nono be arrested, And if 50 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: he was arrested, well, that would prove that the police 51 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 3: were actually independent, that they weren't being bribed by the 52 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 3: big family on the island. That perhaps this investigation was 53 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 3: going to be thorough and fair and proper. 54 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 4: But not only has Panyu implicated him in his murders, 55 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 4: he's doing press conferences or press statements to say that 56 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 4: he's got the right people and he's not going to 57 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 4: use scapegoats. And we were all like, holy shit, it's like, 58 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 4: what the hell like, this family is going to be 59 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 4: brought down and we're like god that everyone was saying, 60 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 4: Panya Mayman must have the biggest death wish on the planet. 61 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: Well, some reporters had been on Katu from the Dayhannah 62 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: Witheredge and David Miller's bodies were found. More continued coming 63 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: to the island. Connor spoke with veteran international journalist Sarah Yun, 64 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: who lived in Thailand for eight years. 65 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 5: So I arrived back from America just as they announced 66 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 5: that they had found two people who they believed were 67 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 5: the killers of these particular two victims. And when I 68 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 5: arrived back, I literally just took the boat over to 69 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 5: Kotoo and arrived just in time for the re enactment. 70 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 5: I was aware that two days before the police had 71 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 5: said that they now think they knew who carried out 72 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 5: the killing, and they believed it was either the headman 73 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 5: or someone related to the head man on the island, 74 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 5: and they were going to arrest them. So when I 75 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 5: arrived for the reenactment, I was expecting that somebody from 76 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 5: Kotao was going to be paraded as having been arrested 77 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 5: for this crime. 78 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: The big deal that the Thai government, a few months 79 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: fresh off a military coup, were willing to take down 80 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: a member of this powerful family. 81 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 5: And we were waiting for the people to come down 82 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 5: to the beach for this reenactment. It's very strange what 83 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 5: Thailand does. They literally take the suspect to the site 84 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 5: and basically before they've had any trial or there's been 85 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 5: any discussion in courts whether they're guilty or not, they 86 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 5: make them reenact what they did during the course of 87 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 5: the crime, which to a westerner watching is like, this 88 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 5: is outrageous because this person hasn't even been tried yet. 89 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 5: But they say that they've got a confession and therefore 90 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 5: they can now reenact it. So there was a big 91 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 5: crowd waiting on the beach, locals, and then the police 92 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 5: came down and they had three men, very small men, 93 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 5: young boys really in my mind, but young men, and 94 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 5: they were wearing helmets and stab vests and they were 95 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 5: being led by about five policemen each down to the beach. 96 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: Here's a quote from a Thai police officer from Tomstone's 97 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: documentary Murder and Paradise. 98 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 6: We are not the best police in the world, but 99 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 6: we tried to do our best. We tried to bring 100 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 6: the justice to the victims family. 101 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: Here's Connor and Andrew. 102 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 2: The police were leading the suspects down to the beach, 103 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: but they weren't Manchuwat or Nam sad Duvician. 104 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 7: The two suspects that were led to the crime scene 105 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 7: were Burmese workers Zalin and Wapo. We're going to get 106 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 7: more into them later, but there's more that we found 107 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 7: out about the investigation into the Tuvichians. 108 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: As a reminder, police Lieutenant General Panya Maymon had come 109 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: in from Bangkok and had taken over the investigation into 110 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: Hannah in David's deaths. Soon the police were closing in. 111 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: They said they had CCTV footage, they had DNA results, 112 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 2: and they brought in Manchawat Davichian for questioning, and they 113 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: also had Namsad in their sights. But then things changed. 114 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: Around September twenty fifth, I spoke with Subiu Kannan about this. 115 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 3: Well in because he ran off to Bangkok and there 116 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 3: was a lot of talk that he had fled the 117 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: island on the first boat after the murder. 118 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: Remember that police had CCTV footage of the running man 119 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: and multiple people said the running man looked like Namsad. 120 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: It also seems like investigators had additional CCTV footage in 121 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: their possession which connected Namsad and Montrea Davician to the 122 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: murders of Hannah and David. 123 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 3: So things were developing very quickly. 124 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: Jonathan Samuel Wills was a reporter from Sky News. He 125 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: covered Hannah and David's deaths. 126 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 3: And then it turned out that Nom Sorb actually had 127 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 3: a perfect alibi, and his alibi was that he was 128 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 3: studying at university in Bangkok and he managed to get 129 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 3: hold of evidence that he was there, some CCTV footage 130 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 3: which was time and date stamped, which had him on 131 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 3: it coming out of a lecture theater. I think it 132 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 3: was so even though this guy looked very like him 133 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 3: on the CCTV, it turned out he had an alibi. 134 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: Connor spoke with the man were calling David a a 135 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: Thai anti corruption activist who lives in the US. He 136 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: led a crowdsource web effort to expose high corruption and 137 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: investigated some of the murders on Katau. He had his 138 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: doubts about the alibi. 139 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 3: That was kind of alibi right. 140 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 6: Everyone on the island said that Nomshad was there, on 141 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 6: that weekend, and then the next morning he took a 142 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 6: speed boat and then left the island. 143 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: So when did Namsad leave Katau ahead to Bangkok. Was 144 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: it before the murders happened, or was it the following morning. 145 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: There were also questions about the authenticity of the CCTV 146 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 1: footage from Bangkok, which allegedly proved that Namsat was not 147 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: on the island during the murders. According to David's social 148 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: media group, the video had the wrong timestamp and the 149 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: images in the lobby shifted. 150 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 2: How much credience do you give to the people who 151 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 2: say that there is at least a reasonable doubt that 152 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: the video of him in Bangkok was doctor or not real. 153 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 3: I think that as a journalist, it's not necessarily my 154 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 3: place to speculate or suppose anything. I base everything I 155 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 3: report on as you do. You know on facts and 156 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 3: what you've seen to be the truth, and you speak 157 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 3: to lots of sources, and I try and ignore rumor 158 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 3: and speculation that might be on the internet. And I 159 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 3: actually went to the start of the trial and listened 160 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: to the evidence, and certainly it didn't feel like there 161 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 3: was a huge amount of evidence against non sood and 162 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 3: in fact he had, you know, a very credible alibi. 163 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 3: It could have been faked. I don't know, but that's 164 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 3: not for me to say. That was for the defense 165 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: to say, and certainly they didn't have any proof that 166 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 3: it was. 167 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: But what about Mantra Davician. 168 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 3: Montrowatt went to a police station, he was questioned an 169 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 3: interviewed for three hours by a senior police officer, but 170 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 3: then he was released. There was no further questioning, no 171 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 3: further action against him. He and Nonsod were both DNA 172 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 3: tested and were both cleared of any involvement, which I 173 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 3: think many people felt was suspicious. But what made people 174 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 3: even more suspicious was that the senior police officer who'd 175 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 3: taken those DNA samples was let go. He was told 176 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 3: he was no longer on the investigation. 177 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: Lieutenant General Panya Maman was the officer brought in to 178 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: take charge of the investigation and find the killers of 179 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: Hannah and David. It appeared he was actually making progress, 180 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: So why was he taken off the case. 181 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 3: And of course all the conspiracy theorists were saying, well, 182 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 3: that's because he tried to finger the chief of the island, 183 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 3: and this is exactly what has happened. The police are 184 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 3: so corrupt they've taken him off the case. Actually, others 185 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 3: say he was always due for promotion anyway, that had 186 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 3: been agreed well before David Hannah's murders, and that he 187 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 3: was simply leaving because he had to take up his 188 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 3: new post. I don't know which of those two scenarios 189 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 3: is the truth. 190 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 2: It does seem a little bit crazy that in a 191 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 2: very high profile media ship storm, essentially that this guy 192 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 2: who's been promoted is already a top commander in the 193 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: police force in Thailand gets yanks from it though. 194 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 3: Right Yeah. And you'd think, wouldn't you, that even if 195 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 3: he has got a new job or a promotion, that 196 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 3: they would leave it a few weeks until he cleared 197 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 3: up what was one of the biggest crimes in Thailand 198 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,119 Speaker 3: at the time. I mean, you know, is it conspiracy 199 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 3: or is it cock up? 200 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: Before he was promoted and taken off the case, the 201 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: Lieutenant General ruled out Warapan Davichian is a suspect. It's 202 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: worth noting that Warapan is not only the chief of 203 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: the island of Katao, but an important businessman with ties 204 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: to the island's Elite. Connor spoke with Jonathan Samuels. 205 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 2: Can you describe what you know about the island in 206 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: terms of the way it's organized and the families and 207 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: just sort of how it operates as a small little island. 208 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 3: Certainly, I got to know pretty quickly how the island works, 209 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 3: and I think if you just go on holiday there, 210 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 3: if you're just there for a week or for two weeks, 211 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 3: you probably wouldn't have any clue as to how the 212 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 3: island operate and what the deal is. But basically it's 213 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 3: run by families who've lived on the island forever, and 214 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 3: the main family is the Twitchean family. Warripan Twitchian is 215 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 3: the island's chief. He was elected the chief of the island. 216 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 3: His brother is Montrat Twitchian, and the two of them 217 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 3: pretty much own and run everything. Well, certainly have their 218 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 3: finger in most of the businesses there, particularly along Sari Beach, 219 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 3: which is the main sort of resort drag. They either 220 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 3: own the bars or certainly rent from those that run them. 221 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: So it's very much an ordered system in the sense 222 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 3: that if you want to get anything done, it has 223 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 3: to be agreed much by the twitching family. And as 224 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 3: I discovered, it's not only the businesses that work like that, 225 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 3: but also potentially the police as well. 226 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 8: And I haven't. 227 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 3: Got direct evidence of this, but certainly the suspicion was 228 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 3: that the police would turn a blind eye to certain things. 229 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 3: If that's what the sort of the hierarchy on the 230 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 3: family demanded. 231 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: Tavician family seems to be the king among all the 232 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: families there, and they own the most important or they 233 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: control the most important land on this small little island. 234 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's pretty much how it works. You know, 235 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 3: all the bars, all the businesses, all the shops, all 236 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 3: the hotels that are all sort of rented or leased, 237 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 3: and Twitchian family pretty much control most of them. 238 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: You talk to people on the Davichian family mantra, and 239 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 2: you were there and you interacted with them. You know 240 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 2: they have been accused of being part of the murder, 241 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: covering up the murder. What do they strike you as 242 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: a family, as a group of people, the ones you talk. 243 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 9: To, well, well, what I will say for Montrerosuician is 244 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 9: that he fronted up, and people don't always do that. 245 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 9: In these circumstances. He could easily have said no to 246 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 9: an interview with me. He could easily have refused to 247 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 9: answer my questions. 248 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: Tomstone produced and directed a documentary on the suspicious death 249 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: some Catau. He interviewed Mantua Davician for the documentary and. 250 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 9: He took on every single question. I answered head on, 251 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 9: and I put it to him squarely and asked him 252 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 9: if he killed them. Now he doesn't have to take 253 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 9: kindly to some snotty nosed British journalist turning up on 254 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 9: his land putting these questions to him. But he fronted up, 255 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 9: and I think that is ultimately very much to his credit. 256 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 2: What was his response when he was asked, did you 257 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: or were you part of the effort to kill or 258 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 2: cover up their deaths? 259 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 8: Yes? 260 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: Or no? 261 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 9: Did you kill Hannah? He denied it entirely. And I 262 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 9: think that, in fairness to Montreroucian, what he might have 263 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 9: seen on the beach when he got there that morning 264 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 9: might have shocked him so badly that he might necessarily 265 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 9: have considered that this is now a live crime scene 266 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 9: that needs to be kept clear. I think that he 267 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 9: denied doing anything at all to the crime scene at all, 268 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 9: And besides, the crime scene itself was pretty difficult to 269 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 9: keep sanitized. You've got you know, seawater all over the place. 270 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 9: You've obviously got the tide coming in and out, You've 271 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 9: got waves. You know, he always insisted that he did 272 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 9: his best. But as far as I'm concerned, I can't 273 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 9: say with any confidence whatsoever whether the Tuitian family have 274 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 9: any responsibility for what happened to Hannah, whether Edge or 275 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 9: David Miller. But what I could see was that he 276 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 9: was willing to take responsibility for dealing with the international 277 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 9: media and you know, address what happened. 278 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: You also meet Sean mccanna. Can you tell me how 279 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: you met him, where you found him, and how you 280 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: were sort of first introduced to him. 281 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 3: You remember that I went straight to the crime scene 282 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 3: when we arrived on the island, and I was chatting 283 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 3: to backpackge trying to find people who spoke English, trying 284 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 3: to find other English backpackers who may have known David 285 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 3: or Hannah, And quite quickly I came across Sean, and 286 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 3: Sean said that he had been friends with David. They'd 287 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 3: actually been at university together. They weren't traveling together, but 288 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 3: purely by chance, they'd bumped into each other on Kotau 289 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 3: because Sean had been pretty much living there had been 290 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 3: playing his guitar, making a little bit of money, and 291 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 3: basically had spent quite a long time on the island, 292 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 3: and he was happy to talk to me. Well, I 293 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 3: say he was happy, he was actually quite nervous and 294 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 3: quite twitchy. And when I finally persuaded him to speak 295 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 3: to me, and I just wanted him to say a 296 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 3: few nice things about David, what sort of ladie was, 297 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 3: he wanted to do it sort of around the corner 298 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 3: from where this vigil was going on. He said he 299 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 3: didn't really want anyone to see that he was speaking 300 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: to the press, which I thought was a bit weird. 301 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 3: And even when I was interviewing him, he kept looking 302 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 3: over my shoulder. He was looking around. It was almost 303 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 3: as if he was keeping an eye out for people 304 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 3: who might see him speaking to me. And after I 305 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 3: did the interview, I said to him, Sean, why are 306 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 3: you Why are you so nervous? You seem really anxious 307 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 3: and I know it's desperately sad what's happened, But is 308 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 3: there anything wrong anything we can help with? And he said, 309 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 3: you'll find out, And it was a very strange thing. 310 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 3: He said, you'll find out there are darker forces at play. Here, 311 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 3: and I wasn't quite sure what he meant, but of 312 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 3: course I found out a bit later because a few 313 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 3: days later, I was fast asleep back in the hotel 314 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 3: and my phone rang and it was the early hours 315 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 3: of the morning, and I woke up with a start, 316 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: grabbed the phone, answered it, and it was Sean on 317 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 3: the other end, and he was in a hell of 318 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 3: a state. He was really stressed, really anxious, and he 319 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 3: started sort of rambling and talking about how he was 320 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 3: hiding in the seven to eleven supermarket. He was in 321 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 3: the store behind the counter with the shop assistant and 322 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: he said, they're trying to kill me. They're trying to 323 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 3: kill me. And I was like, calm down, Sean, what 324 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 3: are you talking about? And he said, the mafia are 325 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 3: outside staring at me through the whins, telling me I'm going 326 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 3: to die if I don't leave the island, I'm going 327 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 3: to die. And I'm like, oh my god, that's going on. 328 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 3: And he'd been posting similar stuff on his Facebook page 329 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 3: as well, appealing for help. And one of the guys 330 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 3: who was banging on the window was montrat Twitchian and 331 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 3: it was as a result of that that police spoke 332 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 3: to him because obviously it was very public. Sean had 333 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 3: made it very public. It put it on Facebook, the 334 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 3: fact that he was being intimidated. 335 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: We saw the Facebook post that Sean made. He posted 336 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 1: time Afia trying to kill me with the photo of 337 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: montrot da Vician and another man. We were told this 338 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: other man was a police officer on the island. One 339 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,959 Speaker 1: of his posts said guy on the left is the leader. 340 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 1: The guy on the left is montrot da Vician. 341 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 3: And that was the reason in the end that the 342 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 3: police had to make their first sort of investigations into 343 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 3: the chief family on the island. So anyway, I said 344 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 3: to Sean, look, stay where you are, don't leave the shop. 345 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 3: I'll try and get some help. And I phoned up 346 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 3: the woman I've met in the band's diving store and 347 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 3: her boss, and he went down, calmed everything down, and 348 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 3: and then and then the next day Sean left because 349 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 3: he was absolutely terrified and the whole episode was was 350 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 3: very disturbing. 351 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 1: Sean took the three pm ferry to Ko Samui. Well 352 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: he was on the ferry, Sean did an interview with 353 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: the news organization recounting what had happened to him on Catau. 354 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 9: They just said to me, monsieur. He Carol Donald, you've 355 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 9: got two people's. 356 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 8: Deaths in your arms. You know what, I was sure. 357 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 9: Got to hang yourself today. You've got yourself today. 358 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 2: We're gonna watch. 359 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 9: Your mind that you your day tonight. 360 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 8: I just ran. 361 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 9: I just left. 362 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: I know it's a little hard to hear, but essentially 363 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: Sean is saying it was you who can them. We 364 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: knows you. You're going to hang yourself tonight, and we're 365 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: gonna watch you hang. You're going stide tonight. I just 366 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: left and ran. 367 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 3: But that's how I got to know Sean. And I 368 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 3: think Sean has a passed himself. He clearly perhaps upsets 369 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 3: various people on the island for whatever reason, and he 370 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 3: believes they were trying to make him into a scapegoat 371 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 3: for the murders. 372 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 2: I want to unpack something a little bit because I've 373 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: heard this scene at the seven to eleven described as 374 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 2: he's hiding behind the counter with this person. They're on 375 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 2: the outside banging to say, you know, we're going to 376 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: get you and stuff like that. It strikes me as 377 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 2: a little bit of an insane description, because if these 378 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 2: guys are the stone called killers and the mafia that 379 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 2: everyone describes them to be. Wouldn't they just go inside, 380 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 2: grab them and take them to somewhere. I mean, I've 381 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 2: heard of assassinations in the street and kotow, you know, 382 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 2: people roughing people up left and right just for looking 383 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 2: or talking to the wrong woman. And it strikes me 384 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: as if, like they wanted to get Sean mccnna going 385 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 2: inside the seven eleven where they can, that seems a 386 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 2: very likely possibility that they would just go grab them 387 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 2: if they needed to. 388 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a good question, and I you know, 389 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 3: I don't know the answer to that. I mean, I've 390 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: thought about that too. Is it a case that there 391 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 3: was no CCTV outside the store, but inside the store 392 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 3: there was and they knew that they'd be caught on 393 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 3: CCTV if they try and grab him and drag him out. 394 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 3: I mean, that would look incredibly suspicious, wouldn't it. But also, 395 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 3: if if you're going to jump on somebody, why would 396 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 3: you do it, you know, on the main drag? Why 397 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 3: not just go quietly to his room or whatever. I 398 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 3: don't know the answers to that, and I think, you know, 399 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 3: it sort of brings about a wider question, and that 400 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 3: is of the confusion that surrounded so much of what 401 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 3: went on on that island, and I think as a 402 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 3: journalist it was very frustrating because people didn't want to 403 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 3: talk to you. People did sort of lead you down 404 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 3: the wrong path to try and get you off the scent. 405 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 406 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: a moment. There's questions about whether Sean was with David 407 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: and Hannah the night they were murdered. According to Sean, 408 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: David invited John to come and meet up that night, 409 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: but Sean says he ended up falling asleep and never 410 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: went out here again. 411 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 4: Sue Buchanan, Sean said he wasn't out that night. I've 412 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 4: got a photograph, a Timestown photograph that proves he was 413 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 4: at that night. I mean, Sean knew David, he knew 414 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 4: him when David was at University Elite. And he's got 415 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 4: the exact same wounds on him that David had, They're 416 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 4: very very similar, and he's got blood splashes all over 417 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 4: his guitar. And he fled the island after saying the 418 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 4: Matthew were trying to kill him after monchd chased him 419 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 4: into the supermarket. But I think, you know Sean is 420 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 4: the key to this. Sean knows what went on. Sean 421 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,239 Speaker 4: has information. I truly believe Sean was there that night 422 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 4: because he's got the bloody injuries. 423 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: Here again, Andrew and Connor. 424 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 7: If Sean was a suspect, why didn't the Thai authorities 425 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 7: investigate further? Sean had similar wounds to David's suspicious wounds, 426 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 7: but Sean was formally cleared by Thai police. If Sean 427 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 7: wasn't directly involved in Hannah and David's death, could he 428 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 7: have seen something the night Hannah and David were murdered 429 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 7: which made him flee Kotau? And what about Mantrawat that 430 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 7: he knew Sean had something to do with the murders 431 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 7: and wanted him off the island. Did Sean see something 432 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 7: when Hannah and David were murdered? There were a lot 433 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 7: of questions that should have been pursued. But the investigation 434 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 7: then takes a turn on September twenty fifth, twenty fourteen, 435 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 7: when Warapan Tavichian offered a one million bot to anyone 436 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 7: who could prove his family was involved in the murders. 437 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 2: Authorities doing about face. Around this time, Thailand's new Prime 438 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: minister also made a strange statement saying that no Tai 439 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,199 Speaker 2: person could ever have committed a crime like this, and 440 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 2: he also had some odd takes about what life on 441 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 2: Kotao was like like. 442 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 7: Thailand's Prime Minister then made a very disturbing comment saying 443 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 7: that good looking women in bikinis were not safe on 444 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 7: the country's beaches. After provoking outrage from the statement, he 445 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 7: was forced to apologize, saying he was sorry for the 446 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 7: comment about foreigners and bikinis. I'm not judging you, I 447 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 7: just want you to be careful. 448 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: A tai police then began to focus their investigative efforts 449 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: on migrant workers and tourists as the possible suspects in 450 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 2: David and Hannah's murder. After the Prime Minister and the 451 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 2: military junta leaders said that it could not have been 452 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 2: a Tai person, the police began to focus on the 453 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: Burmese migrant workers on Kotel, and within about forty eight 454 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: hours of that statement, Police Lieutenant General Paiman Maymon was 455 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 2: taken off the case and he was replaced by another 456 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 2: commander and they only at that time start targeting the 457 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: Burmese workers on Kotel. 458 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: Police began collecting DNA for more than two hundred people 459 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: on Katu, mostly Bermese immigrants. To understand why the Thai 460 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,959 Speaker 1: got was pointing the finger at the Burmese population, we 461 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: need to look into the history of the Burmese migrants 462 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 1: in Thailand. Connor spoke with Phil Robertson, the Deputy Asia 463 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: Director for Human Rights Watch. 464 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 10: I live in Bangkok, and I wrote a report for 465 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 10: Human Rights Watch a number of years ago about mistreatment 466 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 10: of migrant workers from Burma, Laos and Cambodia who come 467 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 10: to Thailand. And there's been a very significant presence of 468 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 10: workers really since the nineteen nineties in Thailand from those 469 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 10: three major countries, and Burma by far away is the 470 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 10: largest contributor of migrant workers to Thailand. There's Burmese all 471 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 10: across the country. I mean, you know, the official figures 472 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 10: are like one point five million. It's probably closer to 473 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 10: three or four million who have come out of Burma 474 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 10: and gone to Thailand. 475 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: Here again, Sarah Yun. 476 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 5: Many of them come across on legal contracts that many 477 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 5: others are brought across by agents on much less legal footing. 478 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 5: They take their passports when they come into the country, 479 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 5: they help them find somewhere to get a job illegally, 480 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 5: and they will work illegally while they're there, and then 481 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 5: they go back. They spend most of the time sending 482 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 5: all the money they've got home and they just save 483 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 5: a little bit for themselves. And the level of poverty 484 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 5: between Burma and Thailand is obviously hugely different. But even 485 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 5: those who are legal are very much concerned about their 486 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 5: status in the country. They are deemed illegal immigrants by 487 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 5: anyone who sees them, even if they're actually legal, and 488 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 5: they're often paid a lot less and they live in 489 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 5: very very rudimentary housing that live in camps where they 490 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 5: all live together, but literally in wooden tracts as far 491 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 5: as we're concerned, and therefore it's very unstable way of 492 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 5: life for those people. And they know that they're deemed 493 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 5: to be second class citizens, and they know that if 494 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 5: they're picked up by the police, they could end up 495 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 5: with quite a lot of trouble from the police, so 496 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 5: they avoid the police as much as possible, and they 497 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 5: will learn a lot less than the local ties, which 498 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 5: obviously is their attraction in the workforce. 499 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 2: Talk to me a little bit about the Bromese community, 500 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: because you also went in to that community. You saw 501 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: something that no backpacker that visits Cotel, no tourist who 502 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 2: visits Kotel ever sees, which is how the Burmese community lives. 503 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 2: And just described to me what you saw when you 504 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 2: went into their community. 505 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 8: Here again, Tomstone, their life is in stark contrast to 506 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 8: that of well, not only the Westerners who are there 507 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 8: enjoying the nightlife, but indeed the Tie people as well. 508 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 9: It's like going back in time. There's limited electricity, there's 509 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 9: limited running water. People are living in not much more 510 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 9: than sort of slightly souped up shacks. It's very very basic, 511 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 9: and it's very very striking when you're there that the 512 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 9: bars where you've been drinking in the evenings are served 513 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 9: by a community of people who don't enjoy any of 514 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 9: the luxuries that you do. All of the people who 515 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 9: are native to the island. 516 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 2: And how did the Ties view and look at the Burmese. 517 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 9: I think that they viewed them as a resource and 518 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 9: not much more than that. An uncomplaining resource, is how 519 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:14,239 Speaker 9: I would summarize it. 520 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 2: If the Thai government, Thai authorities, Tai families who are 521 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: on the island are trying to deflect away from a 522 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 2: possible tie individual who maybe attacked Hannah and David. Aren't 523 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 2: the Burmese the perfect people to, you know, to color 524 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 2: and to point the finger. 525 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 9: At, Well, that's of you that you heard a lot, 526 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 9: and you heard it, in fact from a lot of 527 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 9: Westerners who had in fact, we're now living on the 528 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 9: not just coach Have, but the other islands dotted around there. 529 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 9: They felt overwhelmingly that the Burmese community was being unfairly targeted, 530 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 9: that the Burmese communities were a scapegoat for what happened, 531 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 9: and that it was always the Burmese who got accused 532 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 9: whenever anything went wrong on the island. 533 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 3: That was one of the big things about the Burmese 534 00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 3: migrants with Hannah and David. They were absolutely adamant to 535 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 3: many on the island that a tie person would never 536 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 3: be put up for this because it would look so 537 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 3: bad for Thailand. It was much easier to point the 538 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 3: finger blame at the Burmese migrant population, which has always 539 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 3: been looked down at. And I think that's about protecting 540 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 3: their tourism industry and the huge amount of money it 541 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 3: brings in. 542 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 2: Connor and Andrew at this point in the investigation and 543 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: to hand in David's murders. Authorities directly start looking at 544 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: the Burmese migrant community on Kotel based off of footprints 545 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 2: that they found at the crime scene. Police focused on 546 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 2: a suspect with a size forty shoe, which is the 547 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 2: equivalent of about a size seven. And here in the US, 548 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 2: remember this is all happening on a well trafficed beach 549 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 2: where the water and the tide are coming and going, 550 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 2: so realistically, there's not going to be any usable footprints 551 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 2: that would have survived the tide coming and going. And 552 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: investigators were also dealing with the fact that people were 553 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: coming and going in and out of this crime scene 554 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,479 Speaker 2: from almost the very second that the bodies were found 555 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 2: in the very early hours of the investigation, so the 556 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 2: whole area was very chaotic. 557 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 7: Once the investigation really kicked off, police decided that they 558 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 7: were going to go to an extremely well known area 559 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 7: on the island. It's a clearing towards the center of 560 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 7: the island where the Burmese community is located, and local 561 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 7: police have been accused of intimidating and attacking the Burmese. 562 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 7: You know, one person that we spoke to provided us 563 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 7: with photos of people that had been bruised and even 564 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 7: had boiling water poured on them. We saw lots of 565 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 7: photographs that were appalling. The overwhelming message from the Burmese 566 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 7: community and their supporters was that they were being scapegoaded 567 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 7: for these crimes as a convenient target for this investigation 568 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 7: so the Thai authorities could close it and get things 569 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 7: back to the usual as soon as possible. 570 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: Tay police interrogated a Burmese man who has gone by 571 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 2: the name of Malmo. He admits that he was on 572 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 2: the beach with Zelin and Wapo, drinking beer and playing 573 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 2: the guitar. He told police that he left sorry beach 574 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 2: around one am to see his girlfriend, but that Zaln 575 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 2: and Wapo wanted to keep on drinking, so they stayed 576 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: when he left, and he claimed when he talked to 577 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 2: police that he didn't see any evidence of a crime. 578 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 7: CCTV footage shows three Burmese men riding a motorbike by 579 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 7: a convenience store where they apparently bought cigarettes and three 580 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 7: bottles of beer. It corroborates Malmoo's version of events, putting 581 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 7: Zaln and Waypo near the scene of the crime, but 582 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 7: this is circumstantial evidence At best. 583 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: After Malmau was interrogated by police, Waypo and Zaln were 584 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 2: arrested and charged with killing Hannah and David on the 585 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 2: island of Koto. 586 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. On October two, twenty fourteen, 587 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: Waypo and Zaln were detained. Hired a food vendor working 588 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: on Katau as an official police interpreter during the interrogations. 589 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: On October third, twenty fourteen, Waypo and Zouln, both twenty one, 590 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: were arrested and charged with murder, rape, and theft. 591 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 11: Police say the men were also identified by DNA evidence. 592 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: Please claim that Zooln and Waypo quickly confess to the murder. 593 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: They had apparently worked illegally on the island for a 594 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: number of years and were driven, say police, by a 595 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: desire to rape Hannah withrage after seeing the young couple 596 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: canodling on the beach. 597 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 11: The arrests come amid mounting pressure on police to solve 598 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 11: the murders. Thai police have come under international and domestic 599 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 11: scrutiny for their hapisode handling of the case. 600 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: This brings us back to the three young men being 601 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: walked down to the beach by Thai authorities. Waypo Xiaoln 602 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: and Mung Mung are taken down to the beach to 603 00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: do a recreation of the crimes they have supposedly commit. 604 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 11: The two burmes were taken to the scene on Friday 605 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 11: and made to reconstruct the crime. They were protective west 606 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 11: and helmets in case of attack by local onlookers. 607 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 5: So there was a big crowd waiting on the beach, locals, 608 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 5: and then the police came down and they had three men, 609 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 5: young men, and they were wearing helmets and stab vests, 610 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 5: and they were being led by about five policemen each 611 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 5: down to the beach. 612 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: Sarah yun covered. When Wapo and zal Lyn were detained. 613 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 5: They looked very very very nervous and very worried, and 614 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 5: the boy at the back was picking his lips as 615 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 5: he walked down towards where all these people stood. And 616 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 5: they had flown in the chief of Police from Bangkok, 617 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 5: the head of the police department, and there were more 618 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 5: police on the beach than there were spectators and defendants. 619 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 5: And they then took two of these men up onto 620 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 5: a kind of salah which was slightly raised off the ground, 621 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 5: and then said these two men carried out this crime. 622 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 5: With all the locals around looking at them, and the 623 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 5: other man they left him. He didn't take him up there, 624 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 5: but he was dressed exactly the same, so we were 625 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 5: quite interested curious as to why this guy was standing there. 626 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 5: And then the police chief said to the two men, 627 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 5: tell the people gathered that you carried out the crime, 628 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 5: and they then looked at the people and said we didn't, 629 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 5: which didn't go down very well at all, obviously, with 630 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 5: the police standing behind them, about eight officers standing behind them, 631 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 5: and they got a good swift knock in the back 632 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 5: at least, but they refused to admit they did it, 633 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 5: and I must admit a gasp went up from the 634 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 5: crowd wondering what would happen to them when they got 635 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,919 Speaker 5: away from the onlookers. But they then proceeded to say 636 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 5: that they definitely did it and it is these two 637 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 5: people and they're going to be taken to the jail 638 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 5: and Kosami and we weren't allowed to interview them. And 639 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 5: then they took them and put them on a normal boat, 640 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 5: handcuffed to one police officer each and sped them back 641 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 5: to KOs Samoy, which is by far the bigger island, 642 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 5: and put them in a jail. So there was no 643 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 5: real communication with these boys. But what was interesting was 644 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 5: that the third person disappeared at this point, and he 645 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 5: wasn't taken on the boat, and he didn't go back 646 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 5: into nat On jail. And just third person was mentioned 647 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 5: that he was there with them, supposedly on the beach 648 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 5: the same night as David and Hannah died, but they 649 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,479 Speaker 5: said they didn't know where he was. Maybe he'd gone 650 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 5: back to me and mar and they hadn't followed up 651 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 5: any investigation with him, even though this man apparently worked 652 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 5: in the bar where the two victims were last seen. 653 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 5: So we found that very strange. 654 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: I always thought one of the interesting things was that 655 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 2: the police say Waypo and Zalen committed this murder, and 656 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 2: yet their third friend who was with him, didn't commit 657 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 2: the murder. Possibly he left, sure, but it strikes me 658 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 2: as like the group that arrived together, they didn't leave 659 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 2: together as well. 660 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 9: We thought about it a lot, and we tried to 661 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 9: track him down and talk to him, but I think 662 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 9: he got off. Remember he'd got off the island, and 663 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 9: it wasn't possible to speak to him. As I remember 664 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 9: it now, and this just needs a fact check, I 665 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 9: think he peeled away from them when the two friends 666 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 9: Ypo and Zooeln were on the beach at the critical time. 667 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 9: I think that's why Malmong wasn't in the prime, so 668 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 9: to speak. 669 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 8: Mam Mao. 670 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 4: They let him go because miraculously he worked for Montreuatuchian, 671 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 4: so he got let go, and they tried to say 672 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 4: that Waypure was doing a runner from the island, which 673 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 4: is complete rubbish because he left the island to go 674 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 4: into a new job on the mainland and like two 675 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 4: weeks have passince the murders. I spoke to both way 676 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 4: Pure and Zorlan's bosses and they said they both turned 677 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 4: up to work the next day completely normal, nothing going on. 678 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 4: So two illiterate kids from a village in Burma with 679 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 4: no running water, no electric, no TV. They've never read 680 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 4: crime novels, they've never watched crime documentaries, they've never had 681 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 4: any previous criminal history. They're half the size of David. 682 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 4: They've brutally murdered tute tourists and then have the waywithal 683 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 4: to completely carry on as no next day, like nothing's happened. 684 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: More on that this season. If you have any information 685 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: about Hannah Withridge and David Miller, please contact us at 686 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: producers at ktdashstudios dot com. For more information and relevant photos, 687 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:23,760 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios. Death Island 688 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 1: is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnow, Jeff Shane, 689 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Chistillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 690 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 1: sound designed by Jeff Tooi music by Vanicor Music. Death 691 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: Island is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For 692 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 693 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.