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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. Hi, Kate, Hi, Paul. Were you

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Speaker 1: thinking about this story of Ed Burdick and what happened

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Speaker 1: to this guy for the last week? I hope you've

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Speaker 1: come up with a really, really strong theory and this

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Speaker 1: will be the shortest episode we've ever done if you

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Speaker 1: have the best theory.

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Speaker 2: I have so many questions. Oh gosh, I have been

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Speaker 2: thinking about it. Yeah, no, I'm as I said. It's

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Speaker 2: going to be a Bourbon episode, but sort of not bourbon.

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Speaker 2: It's a hard Seltzer episode. How's that our Seltzer?

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Speaker 1: Do you know? That if I drank hard Seltzer during

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Speaker 1: our episodes, I would be curled up in a ball

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Speaker 1: in a sleep by the end of So. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how you do this.

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Speaker 2: It's called tolerance.

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Speaker 1: I guess I respect it. I guess I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I respect. I guess I respect it. Anyway, I'll

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Speaker 1: be just sipping my peach ginger herbal tea at the

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Speaker 1: same war word different, aren't we? Aren't you and I?

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Speaker 1: Really different? Stuff like this?

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Speaker 2: Hey, that's what allows us to mesh so well.

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Speaker 1: Toget opposites a tract. Absolutely, there you go. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: do a summary. I've made you do your summaries in

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Speaker 1: the past, but I'll go ahead and just rip this

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Speaker 1: one out. So our summary is We're in Buffalo in

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Speaker 1: nineteen oh three. There is a very successful businessman named

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Speaker 1: Ed Burdick. He is found murdered on his fainting couch

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Speaker 1: in his big home by housekeeper and his mother in law.

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Speaker 1: He is separated, it sounds like, and going through divorce

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Speaker 1: with his wife Alice. She has been having an affair

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Speaker 1: with his closest friend for it sounds like about five years,

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Speaker 1: and the friend has Arthur, has threatened him is kind

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Speaker 1: of the big thing right now. Had threatened him that

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Speaker 1: if you go through this divorce, it will expose all

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Speaker 1: of my private business. I do not want that. Don't

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Speaker 1: do it. I will kill you and then I will

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Speaker 1: take my own life. And Ed responded with, listen, you know,

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Speaker 1: divorce your wife. I'll divorce mine. You two get married,

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Speaker 1: and you can have the our kids that half the time,

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Speaker 1: and I'll take the kids half the time, and everything

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Speaker 1: will be okay. But he seemed to be the only

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Speaker 1: one okay with this arrangement. And now we are all

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Speaker 1: on the day that he was discovered and police are

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Speaker 1: arriving to find Ed face down, no clothes except an

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Speaker 1: undershirt on beaten to death. Autopsy shows at least ten

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Speaker 1: blows to the head. We will have a murder weapon soon.

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Speaker 1: And now they are trying to figure out what happened

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Speaker 1: to this very successful man. Is that good? Is that

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Speaker 1: your understanding of what happened?

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Speaker 2: That is my understanding? So yes, I need more details, okay.

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Speaker 1: So the police come after the cook Maggie had run

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Speaker 1: to the pharmacy and phoned the doctor and then they

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Speaker 1: phoned the police. The police show up and they immediately

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Speaker 1: think robbery, gone wrong, even though he's not wearing any pants.

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Speaker 1: Even though you know, it looks like nothing's been taken,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like it looks it's like, according to the police,

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Speaker 1: someone came into the house through the window, ran into

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Speaker 1: ed unexpectedly. They must have assumed that he was upstairs

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Speaker 1: where bedrooms would traditionally be. They killed them, and then

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Speaker 1: they ran out the front door. So that's where police

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Speaker 1: see things going. There are a lot of details about

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Speaker 1: the room, but I can also show you the diagram,

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Speaker 1: which I will say is rough, to say the least

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Speaker 1: of what police say the room was. Like, what do

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Speaker 1: you think we should do first? I mean, there's like

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Speaker 1: weird stuff throughout the room that people have theories about,

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Speaker 1: but there's also this diagram.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let me see the diagram.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So take a look at the diagram that I

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Speaker 1: sent you. It's kind of hard to read. You describe

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Speaker 1: what you see, and if you need help translating some

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Speaker 1: of this stuff, let me know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So what I'm looking at is what would be

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Speaker 2: considered a hand drawn diagram. It's actually technically what we

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Speaker 2: would call a bird's eye sketch or crime scene sketch.

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Speaker 2: So this is literally looking right down on the den

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Speaker 2: where Ed was found killed. The outer walls of the

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Speaker 2: diagram have obviously been drawn with a straight edge, showing

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Speaker 2: two windows on the left side of the diagram and

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Speaker 2: the door going into the room or you know, the

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Speaker 2: door to the room on the kind of the bottom

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Speaker 2: right wall of the diagram. The prominent feature, of course,

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Speaker 2: is what they're calling a couch, which you had previously

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Speaker 2: referred to as a divan, and it's indicating it's it

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Speaker 2: looks like it's somewhat at just a slight diagonal inside

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Speaker 2: the you know, the center part of this room, and

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Speaker 2: it's indicating it's about eight and a half feet long.

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Speaker 2: They're noting there's a chair that's just inside the door

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Speaker 2: to the room, there's a bookcase, there's a table that's

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Speaker 2: to the left of the door into the room, and

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Speaker 2: there they write table from which letters were taken above

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Speaker 2: the couch, and there's an X that is marked right

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Speaker 2: sort of at the right hand head of this couch

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Speaker 2: is a what appears to be a location that is

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Speaker 2: described as underwear trousers and stockings, and an arrow pointing

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Speaker 2: to that X. Then just inside the door, it says

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Speaker 2: two golf sticks, which I'm assuming that's their terminology for

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Speaker 2: golf clubs. You're right, yep, Okay, so that's that is

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Speaker 2: what this diagram is depicting, and it's a simple diagram.

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Speaker 2: What I really like is are showing where Ashland Avenue is,

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Speaker 2: which is on the bottom of the diagram. It's on

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Speaker 2: the side of the den in which the door is in,

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Speaker 2: and they actually have a north and south arrow so

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Speaker 2: it helps orient this is. You know, as simple as

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Speaker 2: this is, this is a reasonable bird's eye crime scene

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Speaker 2: sketch that gives me at least a spatial layout of

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Speaker 2: the room as well as where some what they've determined

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Speaker 2: to be prominent items of evidence are located within the room.

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Speaker 1: Yes, there are a couple things that I wanted to

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Speaker 1: sort of point out because I'm sure you'll have questions

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Speaker 1: about the stockings. It looks like on the other side

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Speaker 1: of the couch they found what did they say, trousers,

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Speaker 1: underwear and stockings. I just wanted to clarify stockings were

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Speaker 1: socks for men essentially in the early nineteen hundreds. This

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Speaker 1: is not women's stockings. These are men's stockings. So it's

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Speaker 1: not like some random woman was there. This is all

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Speaker 1: his stuff. His underclothing or the trousers are kind of

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Speaker 1: piled up.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like, yeah, and do we have any information

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Speaker 2: would Ed sleep in the den.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into some more details and I'll kind of

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Speaker 1: give you that information. So first, let's start with the

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Speaker 1: items that are in this room will inform us of

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Speaker 1: Ed's habits and things that were not his habits. And

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Speaker 1: this is the stuff that the domestic staff was very

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Speaker 1: helpful because they were the ones who really flagged some

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Speaker 1: weird things. There's a tray of cheese and crackers on

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Speaker 1: the table. There's a bottle of liquor, and there's another

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Speaker 1: bottle of liquor, the one the pre mixed cocktail that

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Speaker 1: he bought. It sounds like there's one glass someone had

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Speaker 1: been drinking out of it. But the household staff say,

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Speaker 1: all of them say, this is not something this man

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Speaker 1: would have done for himself in the middle of the night. Ever,

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Speaker 1: he did not eat in this din He only smoked

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Speaker 1: in the den after dinner. And that is it. This

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Speaker 1: is weird. This is not the right set up for

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Speaker 1: Ed Burdick at home, you know, hanging out after everybody

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Speaker 1: went to sleep. There's a tart that the cook knows

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Speaker 1: ed hated, he refused to eat it when she made

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Speaker 1: it for him, and the tart is there. It looks

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Speaker 1: like he had someone else in that den at some point,

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Speaker 1: So no one understands if he is hosting somebody why

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Speaker 1: the kitchen window was open, and it sounds like because

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Speaker 1: there's food on the table and somebody opened the window.

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Speaker 1: It just it all seems like somebody is staging something,

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Speaker 1: either staging the food, which I don't know why somebody

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Speaker 1: breaking into the house would stage somebody in the house

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Speaker 1: doing it, or the other way around, somebody who had

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Speaker 1: been hosted by him or who lived there at one

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Speaker 1: point was then trying to make it look like someone

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Speaker 1: broke in. So staging is that the right word?

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you're describing the right term staging, but I

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Speaker 2: kind of want to dig into that a little bit.

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Speaker 2: No earlier, you said the kitchen window was open. Did

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Speaker 2: you mean the den window?

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Speaker 1: Now the kitchen window, which is very close to the den. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is when Maggie came downstairs, the front door was

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Speaker 1: open and the kitchen window was open. They looked outside.

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Speaker 1: It looked like some of the snow had been brushed

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Speaker 1: away from the outer window. Sill of the kitchen, the

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Speaker 1: one that was open. But there are no footprints in

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Speaker 1: the snow underneath the window or several feet around it,

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Speaker 1: and there's not fresh snow. It had not snowed that night.

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Speaker 1: So they said, listen, if somebody broke in, there would

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Speaker 1: be footprints right underneath the sill. And that's not what

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Speaker 1: this looks like. But I don't know if that's solid

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Speaker 1: evidence or not.

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Speaker 2: Now, so you know, the victimology is always so important,

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Speaker 2: and so what I'm hearing is is that Ed changed

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Speaker 2: his pattern and that was directly witnessed by the domestic staff.

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Speaker 2: He's bringing alcohol, he's got the pre mixed cocktail, and

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Speaker 2: then of course what you're seeing inside the den is

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Speaker 2: supporting the possibility that someone else was present. Is this

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Speaker 2: a staged crime scene where somebody setting it up to

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Speaker 2: make it look like Ed was entertaining somebody. I'm not

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Speaker 2: convinced of that, because Ed's change behavior that was directly witnessed.

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Speaker 2: It's almost as if Ed was expecting somebody to come over,

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Speaker 2: and maybe somebody did come over. Now that could be

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Speaker 2: the killer, or that could be the reason Ed was

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Speaker 2: killed by whoever came after the person he was entertaining

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Speaker 2: the open window. You know, this is where the presumption

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Speaker 2: is is that that open window is a point of entry.

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Speaker 2: That open window may be merely a portal to look out.

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Speaker 2: You know. Let's say you're an offender. You've killed Ed.

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Speaker 2: Now you're trying to figure out how am I going

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Speaker 2: to get out of this house without being seen. You've

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Speaker 2: got a window, this kitchen window that maybe gives you

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Speaker 2: the best view of the escape route you want to take.

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Speaker 2: So you open the window up so you can lean

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Speaker 2: out a little bit to see is it safe to go.

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Speaker 2: Due to the post offense behavior, people are often in

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Speaker 2: a rush to escape. The offender doesn't close the wind,

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Speaker 2: goes out the front door, leaves the front door open.

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Speaker 2: That is a possibility here. The original investigator, saying this

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Speaker 2: must have been a robbery gone bad, tells me they

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Speaker 2: did not know what they were looking at. You know,

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Speaker 2: so that this is by any any measure, you know,

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Speaker 2: seeing Ed's body covered, his head wrapped in a quilt,

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Speaker 2: you know, this bludgeting everything else. There's nothing about this

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Speaker 2: that is would be typical of a kind of a

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Speaker 2: robber going in going oh shit, kills Ed and then

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Speaker 2: runs out. You know that would be more of a

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Speaker 2: blitz style attack, and there wouldn't be the interactions between

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Speaker 2: the offender and Ed in that scenario. So you know,

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Speaker 2: of course Ed's state address is important. You're going to

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Speaker 2: tell me what the murder weapon is.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: The offender taking the time to cover it up still

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Speaker 2: is very significant.

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Speaker 1: Let's first talk about robbery. Investigators start looking around. They're

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out if anything was taken, so as

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Speaker 1: wallets and his pants. The pants are folded up in

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Speaker 1: a neat pile by the couch, and there's about forty

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Speaker 1: dollars in his wallet, which is about one thousand dollars today,

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Speaker 1: and the clothes in the pile are clean, no blood,

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Speaker 1: so it sounds like Ed was the one who took

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Speaker 1: his own clothes off, maybe before he was killed. There

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Speaker 1: are valuable objects left in the din and he had

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Speaker 1: a gun with him, a small revolver, but it's been untouched.

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Speaker 1: It's in the pocket of a smoking jacket that he

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Speaker 1: had been wearing earlier in the evening and he had

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Speaker 1: hung on a chair. Also, one of Ed's desk doors

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Speaker 1: is open. It's been rifled through, so they are saying, okay,

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Speaker 1: we get it. This doesn't seem to be a robbery.

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Speaker 1: And then I want to talk to you about blood,

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Speaker 1: because there's blood in different places. I know that I

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Speaker 1: had initially said that there was splatter on the walls,

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Speaker 1: which is true, but there's also some pools of blood

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Speaker 1: that I think are probably pretty interesting. So I would say,

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Speaker 1: take robbery off the table here, because the common things

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Speaker 1: that people would snatch, the real easy things that you

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Speaker 1: could just throw in, you know, your pants, money, anything,

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Speaker 1: none of that stuff was taken. None of the valuables

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Speaker 1: were taken.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I agree, there's nothing about this crime scene

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Speaker 2: that speaks robbery to me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so there's a bunch of stuff, so keep up

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Speaker 1: with me because it changes a little bit here. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So the corner looks and after they turn him over,

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Speaker 1: you know, you could see that his skull has been crushed.

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Speaker 1: The corner notes that he has later on that he

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Speaker 1: has a very thin skull. And what they're trying to

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Speaker 1: say is that it would have been very easy to

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Speaker 1: beat him to death. Is that a thing? Is it

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Speaker 1: really going to be easier for somebody who has a

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Speaker 1: thinner skull?

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Speaker 2: So I have personally witnessed kind of the differences in

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Speaker 2: victim's skulls. In fact, I recently consulted on a case

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Speaker 2: out of Texas in which a male victim had been

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Speaker 2: beaten many times on his head with a claw hammer,

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Speaker 2: and yet none of the blows cause any depressed fractures

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Speaker 2: in this man's skull. And at autopsy, I'm taking a

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Speaker 2: look at the skull and it was like an inch thick.

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Speaker 2: I've never seen a skull this thick. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: the physical attributes of that skull, you know, potentially, you know,

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Speaker 2: might allow for lesser blows to cause damage. You know,

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Speaker 2: but human skulls, when they're intact, are quite hardy. You know,

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Speaker 2: it does take a fair amount. But once the skull

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Speaker 2: is compromised, and let's say it's fractured, then subsequent blows,

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Speaker 2: particularly from a more massive object, can easily start crushing

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Speaker 2: the head. It's interesting that they're noting that Ed has

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Speaker 2: a thinner skull, but I don't necessarily think that that's

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Speaker 2: going to inform me anything about the force of the

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Speaker 2: blows or any of the physical attributes of the offender.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Ed is five foot six and he's a very

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Speaker 1: slight man. So let me tell you about the blood.

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Speaker 1: The blood has saturated the couch in a large puddle

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Speaker 1: and has sprayed across the room and is on the

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Speaker 1: door and the doorknob. It looks like there are bloody

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Speaker 1: fingerprints on his body, but it doesn't sound like anybody

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Speaker 1: ever tried to match them. That wouldn't be a very

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Speaker 1: good sample doing old school fingerprinting anyway. I mean, how

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Speaker 1: would you be able to get a decent sample off

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Speaker 1: of somebody's body with clothes and stuff. I mean, is

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Speaker 1: that possible?

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Speaker 2: Well, if there was ridge detail left in his blood

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Speaker 2: and it dried, let's say, on his skin, yes, that's

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Speaker 2: possible for sure. It all depends on it. Sounds like

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Speaker 2: the offender ended up with blood on his or her hands,

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Speaker 2: touched ed for whatever reason during the manipulation of his body.

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Speaker 2: Usually what we see are smears versus a nice, you know,

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Speaker 2: finger being left behind. But if they touched with the

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Speaker 2: bloody fingers ed in a certain way and lifted those

295
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Speaker 2: fingers up without any type of movement sideways movement, yes

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Speaker 2: you could get identifiable fingerprints in the victim's blood left

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Speaker 2: by the offender on his skin. That's probably the few

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Speaker 2: one of the few examples of being able to get

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Speaker 2: a fender fingerprints off of human skin.

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Speaker 1: Well, it didn't matter anyway, because fingerprinting was not a

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Speaker 1: thing in America in nineteen oh three, and it was

302
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Speaker 1: barely a thing in Europe where it originated from. So

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Speaker 1: there's blood all over the place. That corner thinks that

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Speaker 1: Ed was struck for the first time on the back

305
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Speaker 1: of his head and then struck many more times after that.

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Speaker 1: He puts his time of death at about two am.

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Speaker 1: They think that Ed has been repositioned on the couch

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Speaker 1: because there's blood and brain matter on a different part

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Speaker 1: of the couch and there was no blood under his

310
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Speaker 1: head on the spot where he was found. So would

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Speaker 1: he have actually had to be repositioned or is there

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Speaker 1: another explanation for that blood on one end and not

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Speaker 1: on the end where's head was.

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Speaker 2: Well, the observation, let's say, blood spatter and brain matter

315
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Speaker 2: at a location that is distinct from where he's found

316
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Speaker 2: his position has found. That tells me yes, he's likely

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Speaker 2: His head is likely in an area that would allow

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Speaker 2: that blood spatter and brain matter from the blows. His

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Speaker 2: head is at the other side of the couch, and

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Speaker 2: then he's he's wrapped up because he's going to be bleeding.

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Speaker 2: I mean, these these lacerations, these blows, He's going to

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Speaker 2: be bleeding significantly from the head. So it sounds like

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Speaker 2: the offender took this I think you described it as

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Speaker 2: a quilt and wrapped it around his head, which, of

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Speaker 2: course now is going to contain the blood. And they're

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Speaker 2: manipulating Ed for some reason and then ultimately covering him

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Speaker 2: up with the cushions. And why are they doing that?

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Speaker 2: You know, that's again that's a significant action. It was

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Speaker 2: there maybe a thought of transporting Ed away from the house,

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Speaker 2: and they were starting to package him up and then

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Speaker 2: abandon that effort. Or is this an offender that has

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Speaker 2: some sort of connection to Ed And now it's just

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Speaker 2: like I can't look at this and I want to

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Speaker 2: cover him up.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's keep going. I want to stick with blood.

336
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Speaker 1: I was going to jump to another piece of forensic evidence,

337
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Speaker 1: but I want to stick with blood because they are

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Speaker 1: looking for the murder weapon. The police chief and the

339
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Speaker 1: coroner find a pair of golf clubs in the room

340
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Speaker 1: close to the doorway. Remember everybody, I mean, it's like

341
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Speaker 1: a bad Agatha Christie. Everybody belongs to this golf club

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Speaker 1: and there are these golf clubs there. At first they

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Speaker 1: look and they say there's no blood. But about a

344
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Speaker 1: week later, investigators find through chemical tests tiny specks of

345
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Speaker 1: blood and bits of brain matter on the putter, and

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Speaker 1: that would turn out to be they assume the murder weapon.

347
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Speaker 1: Wanted to give you a little fun fact. In nineteen

348
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Speaker 1: oh one, two years earlier, this is when researchers declared

349
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Speaker 1: there are different blood types within the human body. They

350
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Speaker 1: were recognized in nineteen oh one as ab AB and

351
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Speaker 1: something called C which we now know as O and

352
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Speaker 1: chemical testing have been around for decades. So they said,

353
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Speaker 1: blood brain matter on the putter, this is the murder

354
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Speaker 1: weapon and this was his putter.

355
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm having a problem with this. What's the problem?

356
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Speaker 2: So ed has been has received at least ten blows,

357
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Speaker 2: including a crushed skull. You have blood spatter and brain

358
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Speaker 2: matter on the sofa. The murder weapon is going to

359
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 2: have a significant amount of blood contact transfers from the blows.

360
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,480
Speaker 2: You're going to see possibly some droplets, you know, from

361
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Speaker 2: each blow going into a pooled blood source. And they

362
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,440
Speaker 2: don't visually see any blood at the scene on either

363
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 2: of these golf clubs, which to me is inconsistent with

364
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Speaker 2: what was done to Ed. Additionally, something like this putter,

365
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,959
Speaker 2: you know, And again I'm having to rely on your

366
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 2: description that a skull was crushed in. When I think

367
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Speaker 2: of a skull crushed in, I'm thinking, Okay, the skull itself.

368
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Speaker 2: Let's say the back of his skull. He's face down,

369
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Speaker 2: he's receiving multiple blows. Is that indicative of a weapon

370
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 2: that has some mass versus this putter? So this is

371
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Speaker 2: where photos would be huge for me. I'm a little

372
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Speaker 2: bit questioning, mostly because of the lack of blood on

373
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Speaker 2: the putter, that it was the one that had inflicted

374
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Speaker 2: all these blows, unless he received a blow or two

375
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Speaker 2: and then he's covered up and the rest of the

376
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Speaker 2: blows are inflicted while he's got the quilt wrapped around

377
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Speaker 2: his head. The problem I'm having with that scenario is

378
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Speaker 2: the observation of blood spatter and brain matter on the

379
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 2: sofa itself. A single blow from a putter isn't going

380
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 2: to do that. That's going to take multiple blows. So

381
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 2: right now I have concerns about them ruling this putter

382
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Speaker 2: as the murder.

383
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Speaker 1: Weapon and sticking it under the sink and turning the

384
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Speaker 1: faucet on wouldn't have washed off the majority of that blood.

385
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Speaker 2: Well, if there's a thought that the offender did, let's say,

386
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 2: go out to the kitchen and wash the putter off.

387
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 2: That's completely changing what would be observed as evidence on

388
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Speaker 2: the putter. Now why take the time to do that

389
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 2: and then place it back into the den? Right now,

390
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 2: I'm going to move forward with the presumption that the

391
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 2: putter is the murder weapon. But I do have concerns

392
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 2: about there, at least with the way it's been described

393
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 2: to me, about their conclusion that it was used to

394
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 2: inflict these blows and crush to skull in.

395
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean as far as the chemical testing goes,

396
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,719
Speaker 1: it sounds pretty straightforward, at least from my research from

397
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 1: American Sherlock. But who knows how consistent any of this is.

398
00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 1: But this is what they believe. They think that the

399
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 1: this was his putter, it was used. There are some

400
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 1: hairs that are the same color as Ed's hair, but

401
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: you know they're on him. They think it came from

402
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: a woman at first, and then they later on look

403
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: under the microscope and say, okay, it came from Ed actually,

404
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: But it's kind of too late. This is already fueling

405
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 1: speculation that a woman was the one who did it.

406
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 1: And of course because he's half naked and he has

407
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: that thin skull, Remember, that's super easy to crack apart.

408
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 1: Some weakling woman wouldn't have had a problem doing it.

409
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: I know, I say that was some sarcasm. I can

410
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Speaker 1: crack open anybody's skull if I'm angry enough with a putter.

411
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, don't piss kate off.

412
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 1: Opiss me off with a putter. So you know, the

413
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 1: police spread out their search in the room. They find

414
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 1: all kinds of weird stuff, like under the desk they

415
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: find so this is his desk. So this is Ed's desk.

416
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: Is it's sort of like a little work desk at home.

417
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: It's his den, it's his man cave where he does

418
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: his smoking and stuff. The police find a photo of

419
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: Gertrude Pain, who is the woman who he loaned money to.

420
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 1: But everybody, including her husband, said, Ed's a good guy.

421
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: Nobody's having an affair in this couple. Nobody's having an affair.

422
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 1: But it's not unusual for people to exchange photographs. I'm

423
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: not sure why. In higher levels of society, it was

424
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 1: just kind of commonplace. And again, no one goes down

425
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 1: that road with Gertrude or her husband. There's a newspaper

426
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 1: clipping that's announcing the Warren's divorce that is in his desk,

427
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: which you know, people think could be a little bit odd.

428
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: There are copies of Arthur's love letters that are found

429
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: in Ed's wallet. Fun fact that I figured out Victorian

430
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 1: era men's wallets were sometimes twelve inches by six inches,

431
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: big big, And so he has these letters folded up

432
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: in his wallet, and it's the ones that he transcribed.

433
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: Ed transcribed himself that he had done a superspy steamed

434
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: open and at the top of one of the letters

435
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: that was in it Ed's wallet, Arthur says, when I

436
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: think of how he has treated you, I feel I

437
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: must kill Ed Burdick.

438
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 2: Do we know when that letter was written.

439
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 1: I believe it was nineteen oh two, so this would

440
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: have been in the last six months when he threatened

441
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: him to begin with. I mean, this has been these

442
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: threats have been going on forever.

443
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 2: Well, it's all part of the lover's triangle, you know.

444
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 2: And from an evident standpoint, I'd want to see the

445
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 2: letters that were written by Arthur himself versus something that

446
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: Ed has supposedly transcribed right right and actually have Arthur

447
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 2: confronted with his own writing to Alice. But let's presume

448
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 2: that Arthur actually did write that, you know, Arthur and

449
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: Ed were best friends at one point, maintain some sort

450
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 2: of facade of friendship even after the affair was revealed.

451
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 2: You know, is it possible that Arthur could have come

452
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 2: over later at night to kind of work things out

453
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: with Ed and then things went sideways. Ed's state address

454
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: suggests that that's not likely. The entertainment aspect of what's

455
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: going on sounds like Ed probably had a woman over.

456
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 2: Is it possible that a woman set it up, distracted him,

457
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,439
Speaker 2: and then somebody else came in and struck him with

458
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 2: the hutter, which I'm skeptical about, Or could somebody, let's say,

459
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: a woman under the ruse of you know, maybe a

460
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 2: physical encounter at a certain point, grabs one of these

461
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 2: golf clubs and hits head in the back of the

462
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 2: head when he's not looking. You know, it's just a

463
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 2: surprise attack. And then now he's rendered, he's incapacitated, and

464
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 2: then you have the homicidal blows being inflicted. So there's

465
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 2: you know, there's multiple possible scenarios that I'm kind of,

466
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: you know, churning on, chewing on as you're telling me

467
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 2: these details.

468
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: There are so many things I find confusing. So you know,

469
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: he's half naked, which the police are saying, this must

470
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 1: have been a meet up with a woman. Like you said,

471
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: There's like cheese and crackers and tarts and stuff that

472
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: did not fit with what he normally did. The housekeepers

473
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: were not asked to prepare these things. Ed probably would

474
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: not have done that himself, even if he were going

475
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: to have a woman come over. But he did pick

476
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: up pre mixed cocktail mix, which he had never done

477
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: really before. So you're right, it's super confusing. And then

478
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: you've got the open window, and so the police are

479
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: befuddled is probably an understatement for what they are trying

480
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 1: to figure out, trying to untangle all of this. He

481
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: had co founded a magazine as a side business, very successful,

482
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: and the magazine says this whole thing was staged to

483
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: make it look like he had a liaison with a woman,

484
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: but it's not true. He was absolutely murdered. And people

485
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 1: are starting, of course to point to Alice and Arthur

486
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: based on some of the stuff spilling out. So if

487
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: any of these couples wanted to keep their dirty little secrets,

488
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: killing Ed was not the way to do it, certainly, no, you.

489
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: Know, And part of let's say we were to investigate

490
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: this case and during the modern era, it's possible that

491
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: Ed was killed after a sexual encounter, and so we

492
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 2: would be collecting evidence from his body and analyzing that

493
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: and saying, oh, you know, yes, he has foreign DNA

494
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: in various areas of his body that would suggest that

495
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: he had been physical with somebody prior to being killed. Here,

496
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 2: we don't have that information. All we are relying upon

497
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 2: is his state of dress that coupled with the you know,

498
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: the various other things within the room, the tart and

499
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: the drinks and stuff, suggests that whatever encounter occurred, that

500
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: it got to a point where you know, he's basically

501
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 2: nate nude from the waist down, that there was potentially

502
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 2: sexual activity going to occur or had occurred, and the

503
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: net is killed.

504
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I think kind of as a

505
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: police move forward, they're really trying to hold the list

506
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: of suspects and we're getting really down to Arthur. So

507
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: they talked to this guy named Charles Park who was

508
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: Ed's business partner, and Charles Park says, Arthur is the

509
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: one who did this. Arthur came to my office with

510
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: Ed there and threatened to kill Ed and then kill

511
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: himself if Ed went through with this divorce with Alice,

512
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: which we know this is one of probably several conversations

513
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: that Arthur was singing this tune, I will kill you,

514
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: I will kill myself if you do this. But you know,

515
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: of course, the police are saying, listen, if Arthur's goal

516
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: was to keep his reputation intact and to keep these

517
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: letters out of the limelight, then murdering Ed would not

518
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: have supported that goal. Because now Arthur's names in the newspaper,

519
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: the affair is out, people are quoting the letters. Arthur

520
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: is having a very difficult time. He writes to a

521
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: friend and says, it's not true. I wasn't having an affair.

522
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: Ed was having an affair. It's not me. So he's

523
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: trying to clear his name. In the meantime, police are

524
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: trying to figure out if it was Arthur, how did

525
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: he get in. You could make duplicate keys back in

526
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: nineteen oh three, and they think that he made a

527
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: duplicate key from Alice.

528
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 2: Well, this is a this is a common trap people

529
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 2: fall into. You could have married a duplicate key. Was

530
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: a duplicate key found? You know? This is this is

531
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: where it's there's presumption. But you can't prove a case

532
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 2: with presumption. You know, you need to have that hard evidence.

533
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: So as an investigator, you go, oh, yeah, maybe a

534
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: duplicate key was made. Now you try to find the

535
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: duplicate key. You can't just all of a sudden ascribe

536
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: on a suspect. Oh he must have done this, but

537
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 2: we have no proof of it.

538
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about Arthur's alibi. So when he was

539
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: questioned the night following the discovery of the body, he

540
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: said that that night before he was at dinner with

541
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: his wife, dropped off at home. He took his automobile

542
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 1: to a mechanic nearby. He came back home and read

543
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: for a while with his wife, and the two of

544
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: them went to bed between ten and ten thirty. The

545
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: Panel's house, as well as Alice and Ed's house are

546
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: all very close to one another, and so's the mechanic.

547
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: So Carrie Pronell says, my husband was at home. You

548
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: guys are crazy. He is a rock solid alibi. And

549
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: of course the police search the panel house and they

550
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: don't find anything. So Carrie is an alibi. Doesn't sound

551
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: so great as far as I'm concerned, But who knows.

552
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: No, you know, especially considering several years of Carrie in

553
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 2: essence trying to preserve the marriage, her social status, She's

554
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: likely going to feed up an alibi once she finds

555
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: out that Arthur is potentially a suspect in Ed's homicide.

556
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: So I wouldn't put a lot of weight on Carrie

557
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: saying he was home with me. You know, you've got

558
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: other information, you know, with the mechanic, you know, what

559
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: is the mechanics relationship? You know, you're dealing with a

560
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: very wealthy man who has a lot of influence. Is

561
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: that going to influence a mechanic making certain statements to

562
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: keep Arthur's physical presence away from the house around the

563
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 2: time of Ed's homicide? Right now, I'm not blown away

564
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: by the veracity of this alibi, but we'll see where

565
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: this goes.

566
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: Okay, So the police as of right now do not

567
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: think Arthur was the one who did it. They are saying,

568
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: why were his pants down, and why would someone serve

569
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: cheese and crackers and a tart and have a cocktail

570
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: if Arthur and Ed hated each other at this point,

571
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: and on top of that, this had to be either

572
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,479
Speaker 1: someone who was already inside the house or a pre

573
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: arranged meeting, because it sounds like their doorbell was very,

574
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: very loud, unusually loud and would have woken everybody up

575
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: in the house. And this is a full house, three kids,

576
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: a mother in law, and two domestic workers. So you know,

577
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: they just don't think that this cheese and cracker and cocktail,

578
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: which was unusual for him to buy, and tart were

579
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: something that he would have done for Arthur certainly, right

580
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, we can talk a little bit more about

581
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: that now, but then we can also talk about the

582
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: other couples and how they play into it.

583
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: I kind of really lean that Ed knew and had

584
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 2: arranged that somebody's coming over that night, and somebody that

585
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: he wanted to inter you know, spend some time with alone,

586
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 2: and short of the offender taking Ed's you know, lower

587
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 2: garments off after he's been killed, which potentially, you know,

588
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: blood patterns, blood spatter would be able to sequence the events.

589
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: Right now, I really leaned strongly towards Ed had pre

590
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: arranged a meeting with somebody that he was going to

591
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: enjoy the encounter with This isn't the man who's having

592
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: an affair with his wife and hey, let's come over

593
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 2: and have tarts and cocktails together. I no, you know,

594
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: and something went sideways, either with that person he's with

595
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: or somebody else comes in. Well Ed is distracted, which

596
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 2: possibly indicates that he was set up.

597
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the supposed affairs he had, Gertrude

598
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: Pain and Missus Warren. So you know, in theory, both

599
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: husbands would have been suspects, and both husbands were out

600
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: of town and had rock solid alibis. Now JB. Warren,

601
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: who's in the middle of a divorce, and it sounds

602
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: like Edon Helen might his wife might have been involved. JB.

603
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: Warren says, I'm glad that guy's dead. I didn't do it,

604
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: but he can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

605
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: So there are suspects here, and they are just grasping.

606
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: They're trying to figure out anybody who would have had

607
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: a likely motive. They rule out the kids, They rule

608
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: out Missus Hull because she's a weakling at sixty four,

609
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: which we know is not true, Go ahead, Paul, I

610
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:03,760
Speaker 1: know you want to interrupt.

611
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: Well, no, I mean with everything, It's like, where is

612
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 2: Alice in this whole thing at this time? I know

613
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: because I see Ed. You know. Let's say Alice is

614
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: letting Ed know, Hey, I want to try to make

615
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: things work out. She's not living in the house at

616
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: the time. Can I come over? Ed is hoping to

617
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 2: rekindle things. Alice and Ed end up in the den

618
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: and then Alice picks up the putter and wax him

619
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 2: and then beats him to death, covers him up, which

620
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: I could see Alice doing, you know, and then takes off.

621
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: That's just a one of multiple theories. But investigating this case,

622
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: I want to know about Alice and her alibi for

623
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:52,240
Speaker 2: this evening.

624
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like Alice actually has a pretty good alibi.

625
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,040
Speaker 1: She was in Atlantic City.

626
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: And that was verified.

627
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 1: Well, this is what happens. Yes, So when he is found,

628
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 1: her mom sends Alice a telegram at the hotel where

629
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: she's staying and it says, come home, mister Burdick is dead.

630
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: She gets on the train with the train ticket verified. Okay,

631
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: She goes from Atlantic City to Buffalo. She arrives early

632
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: the next morning. And I'm telling you this now because investigators.

633
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: Of course, it took a couple of days for them

634
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: to even meet up with her, and they had thought

635
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: it was a woman because of the weird hair, which

636
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 1: turned out to be his hair. The reporters are at

637
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: the train station when she gets there from Atlantic City.

638
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: The story had run on the front page of the

639
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 1: evening edition the day that he was found. She's there

640
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: the next day. She's very calm. She wants to know

641
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: what happened. She asks reporters a lot of questions because

642
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: she doesn't know anything. She says, all she knows is

643
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: what was in that telegram from her mom. They say

644
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: your husband was bludgeoned to death, and your boyfriend is

645
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: a suspect. She told reporters that Arthur and Ed have

646
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: always gotten along. They never quarreled as far as she knows,

647
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: and obviously that's not true. She's lying. She moves back

648
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: into the house with the kids and the mom and

649
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: the servants. People start to drop by and give her condolences,

650
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: and she doesn't take any visitors for the next couple

651
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: of days, and an inquest is coming. They're calling for

652
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 1: an inquest here, of course, so what do you think

653
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: about that? So she is in Atlantic City, they meet

654
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: her at the train station. It doesn't mean necessarily that

655
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: she didn't secretly come in, I guess, but police are

656
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: saying it sounds pretty rock solid.

657
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think I agree with that. With

658
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: that set of circumstances, I wouldn't eliminate Alice of having

659
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 2: prior knowledge that this was going to occur. But how

660
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: you know, because it's Alice and Arthur, and I don't

661
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 2: think the way, you know, the entertainment aspect of what's

662
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: going on, and potentially the sexual aspect of what's going

663
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: on with Ed and whoever he's with that night, just

664
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 2: doesn't seem like Ed is planning on entertaining Arthur to

665
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 2: come over, you know. So this is where I think,

666
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 2: in all likelihood Ed was expecting a woman to come

667
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: over that night, and whether that woman actually showed, we

668
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 2: don't know, but I would say likely because of Ed's

669
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: state address. And then whether that woman is his killer

670
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: or somebody associated with that woman is his killer right now,

671
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 2: I just don't I can't say.

672
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I had wondered what if Arthur and Alice

673
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:39,240
Speaker 1: had a conversation and she called Ed and said, listen,

674
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: you know, I need to talk to you. I don't

675
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: know if she said something about reconciling, but over the

676
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: phone ranged, I will be there at eleven o'clock. Leave

677
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: the door open, and then it's Arthur. It's not Alice,

678
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: and she's safe in Atlantic City.

679
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then Ed is opening the door and inviting

680
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 2: Arthur in and pulling his pants down.

681
00:38:58,200 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, doesn't say.

682
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: I mean see their scenarios where that does occur, but

683
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 2: I don't think in this relationship that that's what's happening.

684
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 1: No, But I mean, why can't Arthur after he's dead

685
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 1: pull his pants down. I guess because blood would have

686
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: gotten on his pants.

687
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 2: That's that's again where there'd have to be an assessment

688
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: of the blood patterns and everything. Yeah, you know, and

689
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 2: we don't know right now. Obviously, it is fully expecting

690
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 2: somebody that he is. He is planning on having an

691
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 2: enjoyable evening. He's got the cocktail, the other alcohol that

692
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: was present, the tarts, et cetera. I want to eliminate

693
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 2: the idea of Ed setting things up and expecting let's

694
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 2: say some woman coming in and Arthur's the one that

695
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 2: shows up. But to me I think that's less likely

696
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: than a woman actually did show up. And what I

697
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 2: don't know is whether or not that woman could be

698
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: his killer or somebody associated with that woman is the killer.

699
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: At this point, well.

700
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the inquest. The prosecutor's official inquest begins

701
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: about two weeks after Ed dies. So the coroner testifies. First,

702
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: he talks about the positioning of Ed's body and the

703
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 1: fact that his pants had been off when he was killed,

704
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: and the fact that it looked like he had been

705
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: repositioned on the couch after he had been killed. And

706
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: then the detective testifies about the state of the den,

707
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: where there were photographs found under the desk. Somebody had

708
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: gone through the desk. Clearly it sounds like some letters,

709
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: some of Arthur's letters, might have been taken, and the

710
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: fact that doctor Marcy kept trying to interfere with this investigation.

711
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: There was a furnace repair guy who came the mourning

712
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,439
Speaker 1: of the discovery of Ed's body. One of the housekeepers said,

713
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: can you come in here because we cannot get this

714
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: house warm because the window and a door was open

715
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: all night. And he came in and he heard the

716
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: mom talking to in hush tones with the doctor, and

717
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 1: they were very startled when the furnace guy showed up.

718
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: And it sounds like the police were saying it could

719
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 1: either be that they were trying to look out for

720
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: somebody's reputation or for the kids, or there's some conspiracy

721
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: involving Alice and her mother and maybe this doctor. But

722
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: it didn't get very far. I will just say that

723
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,439
Speaker 1: they're trying to in the inquest really show the scene

724
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: as odd, and there's so much conflicting information. I think

725
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: it's hard to know where they're actually going. Because they

726
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: have Missus Hull come, who is the mother in law,

727
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 1: Marie Hull, and she lies on the stand. She said

728
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: that she and Alice had last exchanged telegrams a few

729
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: weeks before the murderers, But the investigators know that's not

730
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 1: clear because they learned that Arthur was on a business

731
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: trip in New York City two days before the murder,

732
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: and you know there were telegrams exchanged between the mom

733
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: and Alice about this trip. So the mom's lying on

734
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 1: the stand. I mean, I don't know if it's anything

735
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: that's significant, but there's just different sort of thing where

736
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: it looks like Missus hall is covering up some information.

737
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: I do want to interject a little bit, and I

738
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: should have caught onto this earlier in which you have

739
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 2: this desk slash table. Photographs are found underneath the table.

740
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: You have these letters that were taken from the table.

741
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: When I've worked crime scenes, and let's say it's like

742
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 2: a Ransack burglary, you see the offenders just searching everywhere

743
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 2: looking for something. Right. They're pulling out drawers or opening

744
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: up cabinets or tossing things because they know they know

745
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 2: kind of where people typically store valuables and they kind

746
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 2: of go to those areas. But also they just kind

747
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 2: of make a huge mess. I've had homicide cases and

748
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: sometimes in fact, I can think of one case in

749
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 2: which it was staged to look like a burglary. But

750
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 2: you also see a focus on an area that doesn't

751
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 2: contain valuables but contains personal information that's very informative about

752
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 2: who the offender is relative to the victim. Here, this

753
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 2: is that type of scenario. This offender is focusing in

754
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: on a very distinct area within this den where letters

755
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: from Arthur to Alice, or at least a transcription of

756
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 2: those letters are located, and those letters are taken. This

757
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: is very informative. The offender knew where those letters were,

758
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 2: and those letters are significant to the offender. Why has

759
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: the offender taken them? Probably because there's aspects in those

760
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: letters that could harm the offender, and now he or

761
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 2: she needs to hide to those to make them disappear.

762
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: I think that's interesting, and I'm glad you brought up

763
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: familiarity because Maggie the cook says the same thing, not

764
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: about the letters, but about the little scene that was

765
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 1: set up with the cheese and the crackers and everything.

766
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: She said, you know, the tart was weird because he

767
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 1: didn't like that tart. Missus Hull and the kids would

768
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 1: have known where to find the stored tart, but some

769
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: stranger wouldn't have. And she said, you know, maybe a

770
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: stranger or someone less familiar with the house would have

771
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: stumbled upon it. But everything else that was as symbol

772
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: the cocktail said. Sheese, the crackers, the tart, all of

773
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: that stuff were all over the kitchen. She said, you

774
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: had to have known where those things were. And that's

775
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: when people look at Missus Hull a little bit. The

776
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: mother in law was she trying to cover something up

777
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: because there were just so many things happening. Maggie said,

778
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: I don't even think Ed knew where any of that

779
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: stuff was. He never went into the kitchen, So this

780
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: was not Ed setting this up.

781
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: I mean, Ed most certainly could spend some time in

782
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: the kitchen and find things he lives there. Right, It's

783
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 2: very different than a stranger coming in under pressure to

784
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: move fast. This is where we talked about earlier. You

785
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: brought it up. You know, the idea is this a

786
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 2: staged crime scene? You know, if this is Maria Hall

787
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 2: setting this up to make it look scandalous that Ed,

788
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 2: you know, he was killed because he had some affair

789
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 2: going on with some woman, you know, and she's trying

790
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 2: to protect her daughter, and so she's making things look

791
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: like Ed was entertaining a woman. Right. The problem is

792
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: is that we have the unusual aspect that the domestic

793
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,760
Speaker 2: worker said Ed came home with this pre mixed cocktail.

794
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 2: He never did that. You know. This is where there's

795
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: a change in the victimology that day, which suggests to

796
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: me that Ed was expecting somebody to come over. He's

797
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 2: going to you know, he's bringing alcohol home. He's expecting

798
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 2: somebody to come over. So there's something in Ed's mind

799
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 2: at least, that there's somebody that he's going to be

800
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: interacting with. Now, maybe there's you know, Maria's setting him up,

801
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: you know, after the fact, But right now, I don't

802
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 2: have a problem with the idea. Even though Ed was

803
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 2: not somebody who was real familiar with things in the kitchen,

804
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 2: he lives there, he can go and find things, going, oh,

805
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 2: I want to make this woman really feel like she's

806
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 2: special to me. I'm going to have the tart set

807
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 2: up and everything else. And he's opening up cabinets and

808
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 2: the refrigerator and going, oh, here it is, And that

809
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: to me is not outside the realm of possibilities. And

810
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 2: I think that's more likely than the idea that now

811
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 2: Maria is the one that's trying to set this up

812
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 2: to make it look like, you know, the scandalous affair

813
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 2: of Ed entertaining some unknown woman and that's why he

814
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 2: was killed.

815
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to get graphic, and I certainly don't

816
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: want you to get graphic about this, But isn't it

817
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: possible that he was just spending.

818
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 2: Some alone time. That aspect, you know, did cross my mind,

819
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: Ed spending alone time with him? I don't see him

820
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 2: setting it up like he's got some sort of like

821
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 2: kids have their you know, their mystery friend and they

822
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 2: talked to an empty chair and stuff like that. I

823
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 2: don't see ed doing that in order to have some

824
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 2: quality alone time. That's just let's just say, that's not

825
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: how men think.

826
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: Alice takes the stand in this inquest. She says, I

827
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: would have divorced that guy so fast. I wanted to

828
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 1: divorce him. I had no reason to stay. And she

829
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 1: denies really having a big affair with Arthur and all

830
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: of this stuff. You know, it's so interesting with history.

831
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 1: On the one hand, you look at this and say,

832
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: all these people are lying, there's got to be a

833
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: guilt there. On the other hand, they're lying because they

834
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 1: still want to protect their reputations despite all of this.

835
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 1: The reputation is the most important thing. There is a man,

836
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: an insurance salesman in a bartender. Both come forward in

837
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: New York and they say that in the weeks before

838
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: the murder, Arthur told them that he wanted to kill

839
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 1: a guy. Some people think it's inconsequential that, you know,

840
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 1: he was just kind of spouting off, And some people

841
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: think that this is a big He's threatened it directly

842
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: to Ed's face. He's told other people that he's going

843
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: to do this, and he you know, wrote it in

844
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,320
Speaker 1: that letter to Alice. So Arthur is not somebody who's

845
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: kind of protecting his feelings here. He's expressing himself pretty clearly.

846
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course God to pay attention to that.

847
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 2: You know, you take a look at this ongoing affair

848
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 2: between Arthur and Alice. Ed is, you know, wanting to

849
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 2: divorce Arthur does not. You know, it's such weird setup.

850
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 2: Arthur doesn't want Ed to divorce Alice because of the

851
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 2: whole stigma and social aspects, but it's continuing to have

852
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 2: an affair with Aus. There's so much there, you know,

853
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 2: from the emotional aspect, you could see where Arthur absolutely

854
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: has motive to kill Ed. Ed has just as much motive,

855
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: if not more, to kill Arthur or Alice. You know,

856
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: that's all part of it. It's just that now the

857
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 2: crime scene itself is not what I would expect. If

858
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 2: Arthur is the one that is actually physically coming in

859
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: and killing Ed, doesn't mean that Arthur couldn't have done this.

860
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 2: I'm just going there's sort of contradiction of Arthur being

861
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 2: the one coming over. And I always say, whether you're

862
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 2: a crime scene investigator or you're an investigator, if you

863
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 2: see contradiction, you have to stop and reassess what you

864
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 2: think is going on here. And that's where we are at,

865
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 2: is there is contradiction. We know who has motive to

866
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: kill Ed, and it's Arthur, and Arthur's alibi, from my perspective,

867
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 2: is not good. But there's the rumors of Ed having

868
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: affairs with other women, yep. And this is now okay,

869
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 2: So how robust was the investigation into this Elmwood Avenue

870
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 2: Society or this Red Jacket Club where now you've it

871
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,399
Speaker 2: appears that there's a lot of churn and a lot

872
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 2: of potential side relationships occurring within this small group. And

873
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 2: now this is where from my perspective, the investigation is

874
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 2: really leaning on the people in this group and making

875
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 2: them uncomfortable, making them think that they're being looked at.

876
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 2: Somebody's going to crack, you know. That's what I would think,

877
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 2: is somebody's going to go, Okay, this is what I heard,

878
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 2: you know, and this is what was going on and

879
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 2: everything else, and there probably would be a lot of

880
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 2: good information coming out of doing some very intensive interviews

881
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 2: of everybody, kind of almost I mean, you couldn't do

882
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 2: it simultaneously with you know, twenty couples or whatever it was.

883
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 2: But you want to try to get this group, each

884
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 2: of these groups kind of as isolated and as wondering, well,

885
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 2: what is the other person saying? You know, I better

886
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 2: let you know, let law enforcement know what I know

887
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 2: before people start pointing the finger at me.

888
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: This story moves so quickly, so I did withhold a

889
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: little tiny bit of information from you.

890
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 2: Of course you did, I know.

891
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: So he dies at the end of February, and there

892
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: is an inquest about two weeks later. I would love

893
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: to be able to tell you what Arthur Panell and

894
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: Carrie Panell say at the inquest, but I can't because

895
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: the two of them were involved in a car accident

896
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 1: a few days after Ed was murdered and they both died.

897
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 2: Okay, was this truly an accident?

898
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: Okay, let me tell you about it. Okay, the news

899
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: This happens March fifth, This is about a week later.

900
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: Sounds like Arthur is under a huge amount of mental stress, nervous.

901
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: He is doing his best to maintain calmness, but he's

902
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: a lawyer, and he at work his cases are suffering.

903
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 1: This is becoming like a Buffalo's modern day celebrity scandal,

904
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: and Arthur's miserable. So on March ninth, he tells Carrie,

905
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:13,760
Speaker 1: his wife, that he's going to go for a drive

906
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 1: in his electric carriage. Carrie says, I'm going to go

907
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: with you. It's late in the afternoon and it starts

908
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: to rain. A lot of witnesses are seeing them on

909
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:27,439
Speaker 1: this drive, and they say that both of them are

910
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: behaving in an odd way. Arthur drives slowly up and

911
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: down a country road, and it's so slow that people

912
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: are walking past them. The two of them stop at

913
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 1: a saloon and Carrie waits outside while Arthur buys some cigars.

914
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:43,840
Speaker 1: They get back into the car. They drive to the

915
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: edge of Buffalo and they stop. They get out in

916
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: the rain and then take the removable roof off of

917
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: this carriage. They get back in and they drive getting wet.

918
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 1: So it is pouring down rain and they are in

919
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: like a convertible. Two boys are seeing them do that

920
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: and think they're nuts. They're driving along a quarry and

921
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 1: the wind is blowing Arthur's hat off his head. He

922
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: reaches to grab the hat, the car swerves and falls

923
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,240
Speaker 1: thirty feet over the edge of the quarry. Arthur dies there,

924
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: carries alive, but when they finally get her out, she

925
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: dies at the hospital. So the boys with this rain

926
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 1: and the swerving convinced the police essentially that this was

927
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: an accident, even though the papers say there's no way

928
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: this is not a coincidence, this is suicide. The police

929
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: were closing in on this guy, but the investigators later

930
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: find that Arthur had engaged the breaks of the car

931
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: he tried to stop it. So people do believe this

932
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: was an accident, So I don't We're not going to

933
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,760
Speaker 1: get an answer on that. It's weird that this happened,

934
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 1: you know, about a week before the inquest starts, and

935
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: it's both of them, he and his wife, and they

936
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: both died.

937
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 2: Do they ever search Arthur's residence or anything he had

938
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 2: connection to and do they find the letters that were

939
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 2: taken from Ed's table slash desk.

940
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: Nope, not a thing, no key to the house, no letters,

941
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: no evidence. He had just wiped everything about Alice and

942
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 1: Ed clean if there was anything there to begin with.

943
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming the investigation into Ed's homicide at this

944
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 2: point just basically stops.

945
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: You're right, yeah, So you know, the ending with this

946
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: here is that Arthur had left Alice a bond in

947
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: the amount of twenty five thousand dollars that was in

948
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 1: her safety deposit box, which is a million dollars today,

949
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: almost a million today. And you know that doesn't have

950
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 1: anything to do with the death. It just kind of

951
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: I think it just shows, you know, his loyalty to her,

952
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: his love for her, and you know, basically, at the

953
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: end of the inquest, the judge said, I don't have

954
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: enough to charge Alice. I don't think a woman physically

955
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 1: could have done this anyway. She was in Atlantic City.

956
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,280
Speaker 1: He said, I don't think a stranger did this because

957
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 1: of the the way the crime scene was set up.

958
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 1: He said, I think that the mother in law was

959
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: pretty weird that morning, but he doesn't think there's a

960
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: plausible explanation for strange behavior or how it related to

961
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: the crime. He didn't think there was a conspiracy there.

962
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 1: He said, if Arthur were alive, he would have issued

963
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: a warrant for his arrest. He said, Alice, you've been

964
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 1: a bad girl and you shouldn't cheat on your husband

965
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,359
Speaker 1: and a lot of this has come down on you,

966
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 1: But that is it. No one's charged, end of story.

967
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: And I think somebody got away with murder.

968
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, somebody definitely got away with murder, for sure.

969
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 2: I'm not convinced about Arthur, even though motive is most

970
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:42,720
Speaker 2: certainly there. I see the conflict with the crime scene

971
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 2: and Arthur being the offender that solely comes over. I

972
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 2: think somebody else had knowledge minimally and was present for

973
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 2: at least part of that evening, you know. And you know,

974
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 2: we're talking about what we know about Ed's life. You know,

975
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 2: we've got Arthur, their analysis in their affair, We've got

976
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 2: Gertrude and Helen that Ed was rumored to have an

977
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 2: affair with. What we don't know? Is there a secret

978
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 2: life to Ed that wasn't revealed, you know. So that's

979
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 2: where at this point, you know, I hate to be

980
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 2: in this. I always like to have a conclusion, but

981
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 2: I don't have a conclusion in this case. I'm looking

982
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 2: at this and I think, Okay, Arthur is in play.

983
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 2: I think it also could be other individuals that we

984
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 2: either know about or we don't know about. So it's

985
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 2: an unsolved case. I want to be able to say

986
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,720
Speaker 2: it was Arthur, and I just at this point there's

987
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:49,760
Speaker 2: too much contradiction for me to feel confident that it's Arthur.

988
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 2: He's just he's I would say he's a suspect and

989
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 2: nothing more than that.

990
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, And I think that that's one of

991
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 1: the difficult things about these cases, these really old cases.

992
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: I was thinking, did they even look at his businesses?

993
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: I mean, this could have been anything. We don't know.

994
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: He owned a bunch of businesses we don't know, and

995
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 1: you're right, I mean, you've got these other affairs, these

996
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 1: other we there could have been other conflicts. Sure, you know,

997
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: he he might have tried to attack Maggie and she

998
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 1: the cook and she's been lying this whole time. She

999
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 1: knew where all this stuff was. I mean, we don't know,

1000
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: but boy would a case because it seemed like in

1001
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: some ways, people were more concerned about this affair coming

1002
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: out than being connected to a murderer. You know, everyone's

1003
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: trying to protect themselves and their reputations, and sometimes I

1004
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 1: feel like that now you know, we're we're so we're

1005
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: very concerned. I mean, I think everybody is concerned about

1006
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: making sure that you know online that people interpret what

1007
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 1: you're saying correctly. And in nineteen oh three, it was

1008
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: just everything to stay out of the scandalous sections of

1009
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: the newspapers. Otherwise, you know, you would lose your business,

1010
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 1: you would lose your family. Women had no recourse, you know,

1011
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: men could divorce them. It just it was awful. So

1012
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: I think if this were a different family, then what

1013
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: would happen would be ed would accept this and they

1014
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: wouldn't get a divorce. They would just try to live separately,

1015
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: or maybe sneak around or something. They would figure out something,

1016
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 1: because that's often what happened. There would be an arrangement.

1017
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 1: And boy were they just everybody here was so concerned

1018
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 1: about what people thought of them. So I think it's

1019
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,439
Speaker 1: just like we see that now people are killing other

1020
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: people because of things that they say to each other

1021
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: and embarrassments and hurt egos, and so obviously that's something

1022
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 1: that has happened with the honor code and everything else

1023
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 1: that has happened for generations.

1024
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and kind of in hindsight, you know,

1025
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 2: doctor Marcy might might actually be key. You know, he's

1026
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 2: try trying to convince the coroner to rule this a suicide,

1027
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 2: and obviously is a homicide, you know, so who is

1028
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 2: he trying to protect? You know, he may have had

1029
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 2: greater knowledge than what he told investigators, you know, and

1030
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 2: it really just underscores, you know, if you have you know,

1031
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 2: sort of this family doctor in the area who's putting

1032
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 2: his neck out to try to protect somebody in the society.

1033
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 2: It just shows how deep, you know, the social aspects

1034
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 2: of this case run.

1035
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:31,439
Speaker 1: Yep.

1036
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, right now, Yeah, wide open case. And unfortunately

1037
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 2: it's it's a you know, due to the age of

1038
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 2: the case, there will never be an answer unless somebody

1039
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 2: wrote in a diary somewhere that gets uncovered in an

1040
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 2: attic two hundred years from now and there's a confession.

1041
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 1: What if it's a couple of years from now, that

1042
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: would be nice, and then we could have an update

1043
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 1: two hundred years from now.

1044
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 2: Paul, Well, hey, I'm just dealing with the timeframes that

1045
00:59:57,880 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 2: you're typically dealing with.

1046
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: So well, I will say, next week, I can almost

1047
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: guarantee we won't have this much husband wife drama. We

1048
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: may have a lot, but this was pretty next level

1049
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: even for us. So we will leave Buffalo and travel

1050
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 1: to another city in another time next week.

1051
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 2: All right, I'm looking forward to it once again.

1052
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 1: Me too, see you Okay bye. This has been an

1053
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 1: exactly right production for our sources and show notes go

1054
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried Bones Sources. Our senior

1055
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 1: producer is Alexis Emosi.

1056
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1057
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1058
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1059
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1060
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1061
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1062
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 1: bary Bones pod.

1063
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1064
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

1065
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available

1066
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 1: Now, and Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving

1067
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 1: America's Cold Cases is also available now