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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones. Hey, Paul, how are you?

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Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, I'm doing good. What's going on?

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Speaker 1: Well, you know how much I love history. I'm surrounded

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Speaker 1: by it here in the cottage. It's everywhere.

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Speaker 3: Oh really, I never would have guessed, But.

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Speaker 1: What I like the most is personal history. And so

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Speaker 1: there's some photos in the background. One is of my

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Speaker 1: mother's grandmothers, so my great grandmother and the girls great

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Speaker 1: great grandmother. And I love that I have the photo.

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Speaker 1: I found it, you know, stashed away somewhere, and I

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Speaker 1: framed it and it's really it's sweet. The older I get,

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Speaker 1: the more I care about reconnecting with people that come

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Speaker 1: from my past. And I think you and I have

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Speaker 1: talked about, have you. You've done some digging, a little

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Speaker 1: bit of digging right on your background, on the holes background.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, both sides, both my dad's lineage as well

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Speaker 2: as my mom's lineage. You know, it's fascinating and part

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Speaker 2: of that learning your personal history is fascinating. But for me,

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Speaker 2: part of the reason I did that was to learn, well,

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Speaker 2: how do you build family trees, you know, for the

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Speaker 2: genealogy aspect, and how it's used in cases.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember I'm not going to say which genealogy

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Speaker 1: site did this, but there was some great commercial and

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Speaker 1: it was a young woman who was sort of seeing

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Speaker 1: through records her grandmother, her great grandmother, who was really

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Speaker 1: influential and sort of creating a revolution, of political revolution,

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Speaker 1: and sort of she sees shades of that in her

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Speaker 1: own life. And I thought, okay, well that's the connection.

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Speaker 1: And we took about these kinds of historical connections all

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Speaker 1: the time. But my stepfather, Jack, who I've posted about before,

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Speaker 1: so his dad was a corrections officer at a prison

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Speaker 1: near where they lived. In Rosenberg, Texas, and Jack adored

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Speaker 1: his father, and his dad drove a nineteen sixty nine

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Speaker 1: I'm going to make it up and say Chevrolet, but

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Speaker 1: it was some old truck, but I know it was

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, okay, and it was baby blue. And

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Speaker 1: it has been, I believe, since Jack's father's death, sitting

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Speaker 1: in a field at jackson nephew's property, not covered, rusting everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And so now my lovely stepfather is getting all of

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Speaker 1: the papers together and he's going to have it hold

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Speaker 1: to my parents' house in Austin, and he's going to

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Speaker 1: work on it in the garage to try to restore it.

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Speaker 1: And I think he's been thinking about it for a

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Speaker 1: long time. He really wanted a nineteen something, nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: something Mustang fast Back. I've been hearing him talk about

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Speaker 1: that forever. But this truck is so meaningful and it's

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Speaker 1: I guess I never really thought about objects as connecting

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Speaker 1: us so much to the past. But he could get,

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Speaker 1: you know, a car that is not a personal connection

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Speaker 1: to him, but he wants his daddy's truck. And I thought,

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Speaker 1: that's so sweet. I love that idea.

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Speaker 3: No, that's well, that's very cool.

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Speaker 2: I watch shows on restoring vehicles. Sometimes I'll watch YouTube

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Speaker 2: these barn finds. You know, a vehicle has been parked

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Speaker 2: in a barn for decades, it turns out it's a

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Speaker 2: very valuable vehicle, and now you have people, these experts

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Speaker 2: that can come in appraise the vehicle and then of

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Speaker 2: course restore it in a way to preserve its value.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you and I are so different because

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Speaker 1: you know, he does the same thing. He looks at

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Speaker 1: cars and how people restore them, and I look at

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Speaker 1: like I was just getting ready to watch a show

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Speaker 1: about an American couple who inherited a five hundred year

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Speaker 1: old French mansion castle actually I think they called it

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Speaker 1: Thick Castle, and how they are going to plan to

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Speaker 1: remodel it to save it from falling apart. And that's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of my dream. So but it is

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Speaker 1: still taking the past. I just I absolutely love history,

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Speaker 1: and I love history where you can smell it, touch it,

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Speaker 1: cook things you know that were from the past, even

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Speaker 1: if they're disgusting. I like doing that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: I guess that's just a getting older kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's sweet. I'm so proud of him.

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Speaker 1: For one of to do that, and he said you

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Speaker 1: can help me winch it, in which I said, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I might be really busy that day during

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Speaker 1: winching day.

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Speaker 3: Oh come on, Kate, that's a valuable life skill.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever worked on old cars? Like I actually

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Speaker 1: worked on an.

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Speaker 3: Old car before, well, I in high school.

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Speaker 2: The second vehicle that I got was a nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: seven Mustang Cobra. And this was not like the really fancy,

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Speaker 2: expensive Shelby Cobras. This is sort of the no. It

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Speaker 2: was sort of a down era in Ford Mustangs, you know,

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Speaker 2: but it had this whole Cobra package on it. And

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Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time wrenching, working on the engine,

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Speaker 2: installing my own radio, doing all the mechanical work on it.

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Speaker 2: And I learned so much doing that, and I enjoyed it,

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Speaker 2: you know. And like I have my cheap which is

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Speaker 2: a two thousand and eight Wrangler JK. And I do

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Speaker 2: a lot of the work on the jeep myself.

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Speaker 1: And that satisfies you in some way. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think it's like earning your own money versus somebody giving

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Speaker 1: you money. I mean, giving money is great, but earning

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Speaker 1: it it's just so different. It's a different feeling.

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Speaker 2: There is a yeah, there's a type of satisfaction, but

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Speaker 2: there's also a lot of frustration.

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Speaker 3: Things don't go right.

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Speaker 2: You're kind of stuck. Well, I can't even drive anywhere

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Speaker 2: because my jeep is up in the air and I

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Speaker 2: can't figure this out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, where would I live while this five hundred year

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Speaker 1: old French castle is being remodeled? Was the first thing

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Speaker 1: I thought of my pitching a tent on the two

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Speaker 1: hundred acre property. I don't know what's sure. Well, I

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Speaker 1: find relics or remnants or whatever it is connected to things,

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Speaker 1: especially personally in my past. You won't be able to

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Speaker 1: see it. But there's a pair of eyeglasses on the

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Speaker 1: shelf behind me, and it's my mom's father's eyeglasses. Now,

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Speaker 1: I've never met him. He died when she was very young.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know why. I just I really want

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Speaker 1: to see that kind of stuff up in this space

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Speaker 1: in my cottage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't see it in the image view that

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Speaker 2: I've got, But over here to my left is a

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Speaker 2: set of shelves, and that's sort of similar to what

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Speaker 2: you've got. I've got what's been passed down through the generations.

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Speaker 2: The cedar little Hope chest that I keep sentimental knickknacks inside. Oh,

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Speaker 2: I have, you know, a hat that my dad used

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Speaker 2: to wear, as well as other gifts from my parents

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Speaker 2: over the years.

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Speaker 3: I've even got this.

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Speaker 2: Old AMFM radio that my dad bought way back. I

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Speaker 2: think it was a wedding gift something like that, and

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Speaker 2: it was just something growing up I remember seeing in

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Speaker 2: the house, you know, And when they finally moved out

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Speaker 2: of California to Hawaii, that was one thing I was like, Nope,

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Speaker 2: I got to keep that. It's an object, right, But

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Speaker 2: there's a sentimental attachment to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I definitely I think everybody feels like this.

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Speaker 1: There's certain dishes, trigger things for you that you can smell,

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Speaker 1: and certain breezes in the air and on. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: let's stop waxing poetic about it. The items that are

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Speaker 1: probably not useful right now, like my clay pipes, which

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Speaker 1: I adore. My daughter bought me a set of clay

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Speaker 1: pipes from the eighteenth century, where you know, men would

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Speaker 1: dig up men would take these pipes, these clay pipes

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Speaker 1: and smoke them in a restaurant and the restaurant would

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Speaker 1: keep them there and would return them to the man

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Speaker 1: every time he came to smoke. And so my daughter

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Speaker 1: bought me these pipes. So anyway, I could go on,

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Speaker 1: and I will over the course of our episodes, I

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Speaker 1: will talk about these individual things. One of the reasons

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Speaker 1: I bring this up is because we are going back

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Speaker 1: in time here with this story, not as far back

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Speaker 1: as we normally do. But before we get into it,

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Speaker 1: Buried Bones will be on board Virgin Voyages True Crime

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Speaker 1: Voyage this October. So I'm wondering, Paul. There's an event

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Speaker 1: called Scarlet Night, and to me, it sounds a little

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Speaker 1: bit more like a case file less of a big party.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about it. Do you know anything about this?

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Speaker 2: You know, I've seen my share of blood pools at

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Speaker 2: our scarlet in color, but that's not what this refers to.

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Speaker 2: Virgin Voyages has a Scarlet Night, which is it sounds

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Speaker 2: like it's a shipwide party. But the theme is is

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Speaker 2: you have to wear red, So pack red and whatever

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Speaker 2: you're bringing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I got to think about that. What would you

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Speaker 1: wear that's red? I don't think I've ever seen you

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Speaker 1: in red before.

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Speaker 3: No, you know, I might have just like a red

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Speaker 3: T shirt.

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Speaker 1: I'll get you a sash. Maybe I'll bring a sash

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Speaker 1: on board and it could be like a sash crime

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Speaker 1: true crime host.

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Speaker 3: Oh, one of those. I was thinking of something totally different.

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Speaker 1: I love a big party, so I'll be excited to

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Speaker 1: do that with you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it'll be a lot of fun.

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Speaker 1: Reserve your spot now at virgin voyages dot com slash

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Speaker 1: true crime. Okay, for this story, We're not in the Caribbean.

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Speaker 1: We are in Boston, and I think we've done a

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Speaker 1: couple of Boston stories. Well one was the man at

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Speaker 1: Harvard who was murdered. Do you remember that? So technically Cambridge,

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Speaker 1: but I think we've had a couple of other Boston stories.

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Speaker 1: But this is I think the Boston story, at least

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Speaker 1: for the twentieth century. This was a really, really big story,

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Speaker 1: and I've mentioned it to you before. But I hope

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Speaker 1: that you forgot. Did you forget what we're doing today?

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Speaker 3: No? I know what we're doing.

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Speaker 1: Oh dang it. Okay, Okay, well we're in Boston. I'll

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Speaker 1: give everybody a big hit. We're in Boston and it's

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Speaker 1: a serial killer and he strangled people. So if our

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Speaker 1: smart and smart audience can't put that together, then that's

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about. And I don't, actually I didn't

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Speaker 1: before reading all of this, know a ton about this case.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that about the Hillside Stranglers. Also, there

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Speaker 1: are just some cases that I've just never really looked at,

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Speaker 1: and this is one of those cases. So did this

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Speaker 1: pop up in any of your education or anything, the

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Speaker 1: Boston Strangler.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, In fact, I have a book on my shelf

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Speaker 2: on the Boston Strangler. Now, it's been decades since I've

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Speaker 2: read good about the Boston Strangler. So in terms of

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Speaker 2: the details there, I wouldn't even say they're fuzzy. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's I think you're going to remind me a lot

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Speaker 2: as we go along. And it's funny because, like Hillside Strangler,

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Speaker 2: I actually paid a lot of attention to that one

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Speaker 2: because one of the serial killers I was going after

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Speaker 2: he had a newspaper article on the Hillside Strangler in

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Speaker 2: his residence. He's following other serial killers and what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well let's get to Boston, one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite places. Let's go ahead and set the scene. There

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Speaker 1: are things that I since we're talking about the Boston Strangler,

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Speaker 1: and this is not a mystery. There is an update

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Speaker 1: that I think a lot of people probably haven't heard yet,

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Speaker 1: as well as you. You haven't heard this update, I'm sure.

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Speaker 1: But what I'm interested in is a couple of different aspects.

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Speaker 1: You know, we talk about why these guys do things

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Speaker 1: like Richard Cottingham. We talked about the Times Square serial

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Speaker 1: killer with that story. So there are a couple aspects

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Speaker 1: of this that I really want to hear your insights on,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't know if it's posing or and we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about that in a little bit, but body positioning,

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Speaker 1: where all these people are, how they're connected, doesn't make

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Speaker 1: a difference. It's sort of the why is he doing this?

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Speaker 1: Or are we overthinking? Did you feel like that with

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Speaker 1: Golden State Killer? Did you feel like every tiny little

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Speaker 1: thing had to be crucially important and this is what's

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Speaker 1: going to break the case. And I don't mean DNA,

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Speaker 1: I just mean, oh, this person knew this person and

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Speaker 1: you know their brother was the next victim or something.

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Speaker 1: Did you just get ever get hung up on that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff very much?

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Speaker 2: So with such a large series of cases, it is

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Speaker 2: paying attention to those small details, and often I would

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Speaker 2: find myself marching down this rabbit hole only to see

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Speaker 2: a dead end over and over and over again. But

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Speaker 2: that's just part of any you know, real who done

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Speaker 2: it type investigation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we know also, you know, there's I don't

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Speaker 1: know if this is profiling, but there's only so far

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Speaker 1: that's going to take you until you get the really

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Speaker 1: hard evidence. But in this case, just like with Cottingham,

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Speaker 1: where we were where we kind of figured out that

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Speaker 1: he was murdering women who would just be like quote

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Speaker 1: unquote standard people in society, and then when he got

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Speaker 1: a divorce, he seemed to switch to sex workers and

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Speaker 1: what that means there are some pretty obvious things, but

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Speaker 1: you know some of this is supposition, I know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, but that's also looking for patterns in a

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Speaker 2: series can provide insight into the offender, who the offender

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Speaker 2: might be, or what the offender's experiencing in their personal life.

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Speaker 1: You're right, And let's start out by saying that I

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Speaker 1: have a two tier trigger warning here. One is the

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Speaker 1: sexual assault aspect of these cases. But then Ali, our researcher,

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Speaker 1: put in another note which I really appreciate about kind

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Speaker 1: of a particularly gruesome section. So I'll do you know

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Speaker 1: this trigger warning now and then I'll just flag people

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Speaker 1: that this next section. If you're very, very sensitive to this,

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Speaker 1: go ahead and thirty second your way through it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is a classic case. People still talk about big case.

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Speaker 1: So let's get going. Let's see if you can solve it. Paul,

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Speaker 1: no pressure. It's a two parter. I mean, nobody's surprised

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Speaker 1: by that. This is a massive story, Okay. Boston, nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty two, Back Bay neighborhood. So I went to school

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Speaker 1: at Boston University undergrad and so I lived in this

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Speaker 1: area and it was very nice. Back Bay was purposely

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Speaker 1: built by filling in a part of the Bay Back

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Speaker 1: Bay to add more luxury housing. So it's always been

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Speaker 1: a nice area. I loved that area. I think of it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's dramatically changed now, but quintessential.

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Speaker 1: I lived in a red brick building, you know, one

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Speaker 1: of these really like a brown stone. And when I

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Speaker 1: moved to Boston, besides the history, that was one of

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Speaker 1: the things that look the ivy and the red brick,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's so different than what I had in Texas,

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Speaker 1: and you've been to Boston, I'm pretty sure, right.

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Speaker 3: Only passing through.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's a city that I would like to explore.

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Speaker 2: One because it seems like a beautiful, cool city, but

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Speaker 2: second because of the.

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Speaker 1: History and everywhere. It's like being when I go to London,

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Speaker 1: everywhere feels like historic. I know that's not the case,

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Speaker 1: but I just love Fanuel Hall and the countryside. And

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Speaker 1: so I'm gonna fangirl over Boston. Okay, you know, and

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Speaker 1: anybody who's fangirled over a city surely you must.

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Speaker 3: That's first time I've ever heard that fangirling over city.

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Speaker 1: I have a city crush on Boston and a university

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Speaker 1: crush on Boston University and on Cornell Randomly, I didn't

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Speaker 1: research at Cornell Universe. I love Cornell. So anyway, now

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Speaker 1: you know more about me. So this is where we are,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, and this is happening in the evening.

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Speaker 1: So with these cases, you know, like with the Cottingham case,

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Speaker 1: I will sometimes say, who do we think in her

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Speaker 1: inner circle? Blah blah, But there are so many people

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Speaker 1: here we don't really have time for inner circles, and

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Speaker 1: we know that they're all connected. So this is more

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Speaker 1: of like Wezza's guy thinking Thursday, June fifteenth, nineteen sixty two,

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Speaker 1: there is a twenty one year old man named Juris

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Speaker 1: Slesser's and he comes home to see his mother. His

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Speaker 1: mother's name is Anna, and she has an apartment in

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Speaker 1: the back bay. He wants to take her to church.

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Speaker 1: This would be kind of a normal routine. So Anna

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Speaker 1: is divorced and she's only been in this apartment for

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Speaker 1: two weeks. Up until then, she and Juras had been

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Speaker 1: in the same apartment in Summerville and he has a

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Speaker 1: job at MIT, so he had just gotten his own

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Speaker 1: place in Lexington. So they sort of split up, and

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Speaker 1: she is now in Boston proper. She's fifty six. She

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Speaker 1: is our victim, and she had just gotten home from

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Speaker 1: her job. It was a seamstress at five point thirty

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Speaker 1: that evening. Juris comes two hours later, so seven thirty

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Speaker 1: he comes and he sees Anna lying on the kitchen floor.

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Speaker 1: She's wearing a housecoat which has been ripped open, and

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Speaker 1: the fabric belt of the housecoat is found around her

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Speaker 1: neck and it appears she's been strangled by the cord

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Speaker 1: and there's a laceration at the back of her skull

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Speaker 1: and blood in her right ear, and I see this,

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Speaker 1: there's blood in the ear with a couple of people slash.

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Speaker 1: Blood in the mouth. Does that come with strangulation, because

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Speaker 1: you know, I know that she has a bash in

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Speaker 1: the back of her head. But I think ultimately they

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Speaker 1: rule this death by strangulation.

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Speaker 2: Well, the blood in the ear, that's very common. It's

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Speaker 2: very common when you have significant blows to the head.

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Speaker 2: So now you have potentially the base of the skull

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Speaker 2: underneath the brain could be fractured. You can get bleeding

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Speaker 2: that will come out the nose, out the ear, even

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Speaker 2: out the mouth, because it's all connected. So with strangulation,

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Speaker 2: generally you're not going to see significant bleeding out of

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Speaker 2: the mouth. And so if this is a significant amount

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Speaker 2: of blood, I would say she's got a fractured skull

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Speaker 2: in all likelihood.

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Speaker 1: So let me tell you kind of as we move

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Speaker 1: forward what people say. So when they do an examination

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Speaker 1: on her, it is positive that she was sexually assaulted,

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Speaker 1: likely with an object, though the press doesn't know about

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Speaker 1: this at the time, they must see trauma.

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Speaker 2: Even though during sexual assault you can see vaginal trauma

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Speaker 2: as a result of just the male anatomy, oftentimes you

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Speaker 2: don't so it would be unusual to see some significant

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Speaker 2: trauma if it's just the male anatomy, and so they

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Speaker 2: must be seeing probably some pretty significant injuries and eternally thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 2: we've got what we call for an object insertion, and

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Speaker 2: it's a relatively common act that offenders do during sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, as we move forward, I'm going to ask

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Speaker 1: you about circling back to Anna, just comparing her, which

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Speaker 1: we're saying is the beginning of this series. But as

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Speaker 1: you and I have said, who knows, We don't know,

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Speaker 1: but this is officially the beginning of it. It looks

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Speaker 1: like they're looking kind of in her apartment and appears

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Speaker 1: like the drawers in the apartment have been rifled through,

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Speaker 1: but they don't know if anything's been taken, because Anna

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Speaker 1: is the only one who really knows what's in this apartment,

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Speaker 1: because she's only been there a couple of weeks.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would ask if any of these drawers contain

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Speaker 2: the women's Anna's underwear or lingerie.

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Speaker 1: I don't have a note about that. As far as

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Speaker 1: somebody taking it right as a souvenir or something, Yep, Okay,

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Speaker 1: they find fingerprints around the apartment that don't belong to

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Speaker 1: Anna or her son. Is the benefit of being in

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Speaker 1: a base brand new apartment that they, in theory, would

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Speaker 1: have cleaned it, cleaned off fingerprints before she moves in.

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Speaker 1: When they do quote unquote they're cleaning, I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: if they ever did that. Is that at least somewhat

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Speaker 1: helpful for the police to be able to.

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Speaker 2: Know when you fingerprint any space, you're likely going to

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Speaker 2: find fingerprints or you know, ridge detail from you know,

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Speaker 2: palms or whatever, even in the most clean types of apartments.

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Speaker 2: I would say it depends on, well, what surfaces did

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Speaker 2: they find fingerprints on, or these surfaces that are frequently cleaned,

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Speaker 2: you know, let's say a kitchen counter. Now you have

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Speaker 2: sort of a compressed period of time in which those

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Speaker 2: fingerprints were left, it raises the likelihood that they could

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Speaker 2: belong to the offender. However, even though fingerprints are very

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Speaker 2: fragile evidence, they can stay for years unprotected surfaces. I've

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Speaker 2: got a homicide case in which it turns out the

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Speaker 2: captain of the investigating agency his prints were found low

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Speaker 2: down on a closet door, and of course, why is

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Speaker 2: his princes in this homicide scene? He'd never responded with

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Speaker 2: law enforcement. Well, it turns out as a teenage boy

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Speaker 2: he lived in that house.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: And now you're talking decades later, his prints were still present.

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Speaker 2: So you're always going to find fingerprints. And you fingerprint

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Speaker 2: an apartment, you fingerprint a house, you're going to find

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Speaker 2: fingerprints that you can't identify to anybody that lives there.

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Speaker 2: And of course you go, well, maybe it's the offender.

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Speaker 2: You hope it is, But oftentimes these prints are to

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Speaker 2: just innocent people that had some point in the past

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Speaker 2: come in contact with whatever surfaces are being printed.

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Speaker 1: The court that she was strangled with would have his

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Speaker 1: DNA right if he didn't wear gloves.

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Speaker 2: Very possibly, Yes, And you mentioned I guess it was

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Speaker 2: a jacket belt was wrapped around her neck.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it says, so she's wearing a house coat and

401
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Speaker 1: the housecoat had been ripped open, and then the fat

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Speaker 1: gabric belt of the house coat is found around her neck. Okay,

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Speaker 1: appears she had been strangled by the cord. So maybe

404
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Speaker 1: the belt in the cord are kind of the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, you know, evaluating where you can find DNA,

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Speaker 2: you take a look at how the jacket is ripped open.

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Speaker 2: You know, where would the offender grab that jacket in

408
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Speaker 2: order to do that, that would be those are hot

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Speaker 2: spots for his contact DNA. Of course, the ligature the

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Speaker 2: belt would be where is he likely touching in order

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Speaker 2: to do the strangulation and he and you know, whether

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Speaker 2: he's tying a not or if he's.

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Speaker 3: Holding you know, this cord. You know, he's really.

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Speaker 2: Having to pull on that that belt in order to

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Speaker 2: for a period of time. So in this day and age,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is a DNA case just off of that,

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Speaker 2: but she also is sexually assaulted. You haven't said if

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Speaker 2: there was any semen detected there is a foreign object inserted?

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Speaker 2: Did they did he leave the foreign object behind?

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Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like it. They can't identify it, and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like they're a semen in this case.

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Speaker 1: There will be in future cases. Okay, Yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about that that the housecoat might have some DNA

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Speaker 1: on it. I mean, who knows, And I'll probably ask

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Speaker 1: you about that now. Actually, let me ask you kind

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Speaker 1: of a practical question about DNA. Let's say we call

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Speaker 1: Boston Police and say, hey, we've got a gazillion dollars

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Speaker 1: and we're going to run DNA everywhere and they say,

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Speaker 1: here uses housecoat belt that was around her neck and

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Speaker 1: we're looking for his DNA. How does that work with

431
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: a company that like your company that you work for.

432
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: Are you guessing on a tiny little section or do

433
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: are they able to swab or do whatever they do

434
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: on the whole belt? What are you spending your money on?

435
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 3: Sure?

436
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 2: Well, this is really the toughest part of the DNA

437
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 2: process is finding the DNA. A lot of money has

438
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: gone into improving the DNA testing technology, but there hasn't

439
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: been major improvements on how how to find the sources

440
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 2: of DNA that are probative. So when you're dealing with

441
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 2: something like the jacket or the belt, initially it's a

442
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 2: visual examination. Are there any stains? Do I see a

443
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 2: crusty stain on the jacket? Of course you're going to

444
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 2: need to do further testing. Is that semen? Is it saliva?

445
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 2: Does it contain DNA? Another visual examination is using an

446
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: alternate light source, so now you can find fluorescent material

447
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 2: that would stand out under different wavelengths of light in

448
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 2: the event of something like the belt where maybe there

449
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 2: isn't any visible stains. Now you can start swabbing areas

450
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 2: that you think the offender likely grabbed in order to

451
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: do the strangulation with the belt, and so there probably

452
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 2: multiple swabs would be taken across the length of the

453
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: belt itself. But this is one of the things that

454
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 2: people often overlook is that the analyst is not able

455
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: to test one hundred percent surface of this belt. So

456
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,959
Speaker 2: if it comes back negative with whatever swabs are collected,

457
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 2: you can also go back to the belt and take

458
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 2: more swabs in different areas.

459
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 3: You know.

460
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: And too many times an investigator will get a DNA

461
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 2: report saying no DNA found and they go, oh, I

462
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: guess not going to be able to move forward with

463
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: this case. And I was like, oh, hold on, I

464
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: need to see the DNA analyst notes, because the analyst

465
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 2: notes are going to show where he or she actually swabbed.

466
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 2: And I go, well, maybe let's take a swabbing or

467
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 2: a cutting from this untested area on the belt and

468
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 2: keep our fingers crossed that it actually has a fender DNA.

469
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: You can always do more when you have, you know,

470
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 2: physical evidence such as clothing.

471
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,120
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's keep an eye on DNA and physical evidence.

472
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 1: Let's talk about access for Anna's apartment. So the police

473
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: say that the building was being worked on, so they're

474
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: scaffolding all over this building. It's a small, four floor

475
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: apartment building, so anybody who hopped on this scaffolding would

476
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: have had access to her apartment. So the police interview

477
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: all of the workers who have been working on the building.

478
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: No new leads, and they interview a total of about

479
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: one hundred people just within those first few days in

480
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: Anna's death. Nothing so I would say that this case

481
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: went cold, except in two weeks something else happens and

482
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 1: then all of the stuff gets tied together. So let's

483
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: just say that Anna's investigation is paused until, you know,

484
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: we move on to these next two cases. So anything

485
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: that we need to talk about with Anna before we wrap.

486
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: Up, nope, I think I've got a pretty good handle

487
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 2: on what happened to Anna.

488
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 3: Okay, so yeah, let's move on.

489
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: So we have two bodies that have been discovered now

490
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 1: in two different locations, two weeks after Anna's body is

491
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: discovered by her son within forty eight hours. So let

492
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: me start with this one because the police immediately link

493
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: these together, which was different than what happened with Richard

494
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: Cottingham and Times Square. The women in that case, they

495
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: were kind of all over, you know, there was some

496
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: in Long Island. There were a couple in Jersey and

497
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: then in the city. But they immediately say these are connected. Okay,

498
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: So both women are in their sixties. There's a woman

499
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: named Nina Nichols. She's sixty eight and she lives in Boston.

500
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: Helen Blake, So Nina and then Helen. Helen Blake is

501
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: sixty five. She lives in nearby Lynn, Massachusetts, which is

502
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: right outside of Boston. So Nina was a physical therapist

503
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: and Helen was a nurse. And this becomes sort of

504
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 1: important moving forward. So firstly, I'm going to tell you

505
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: what happened, but this is a little bit of a

506
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: rinse repeat from what happened with Anna. Anna was fifty six.

507
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: One of these women is sixty five and the other

508
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: one is sixty eight. Does age tell us anything at

509
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: this point or do we need to see victims of

510
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: this same relative age continue on in order to pick

511
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: up on some kind of something with a series.

512
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 2: Age is a factor, for sure. However, with just age,

513
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 2: I can't really draw any conclusions, you know, because I

514
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: need to take a look at the totality of the victimology.

515
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: With what we can discern to try to see, well,

516
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 2: why is the offender purposely choosing women that are mid

517
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: fifties are older. There could be a sexual interest in

518
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 2: older women that this offender has. This may be something

519
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 2: where the offender recognizes that these women are more easily

520
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: overpowered oftentimes. Well, actually, I just talked about this on

521
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: my other podcasts now retired FBI profiler Mark Sepharic. You know,

522
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: he's an expert on the sexual assault of the elderly

523
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: in his studies, he's even published on this. Is that

524
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: when you see the very elderly being sexually assaulted and

525
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: or killed, oftentimes you're looking for a teenage boy that

526
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: lives in the area. And it's because this boy doesn't

527
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: have the self confidence to be able to overpower a

528
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: younger but adult woman, and so we'll go and attack

529
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: this elderly person. Not because that's their primary sexual interest,

530
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 2: it's because of almost the practicality to that offender.

531
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: I've never heard that before. That's fascinating. And you know,

532
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of different cases really focused in

533
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: on the elderly, not always involving sexual assault, but that

534
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: makes sense. It's interesting. Okay, so both women both Nina

535
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: and Helen have been strangled with one of their own

536
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: silk stockings. So we're used to the silk stockings or

537
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: the stalkings of today for women pantyhose that are connected.

538
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: These were individual So when I say stockings, that's what

539
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: I mean. I might say one stocking, I may say

540
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: two stockings, but they're individual stockings. They're not connected. Okay,

541
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: So strangled with their own silk stockings which were left

542
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: around their necks. So Helen Blake's braw was also found

543
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: around her neck as well as the stocking, so her

544
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: downstairs neighbor heard noises from above, like furniture being moved

545
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: in the afternoon on the day that Helen had been killed.

546
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: Both women were found with blood in and around both ears.

547
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: Both appear to have been violently sexually assaulted, also seemingly

548
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: with objects, And again they don't share this with the press.

549
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is something where the police

550
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: are withholding or it's nineteen sixty two and that would

551
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: traumatize readers too much. I don't know what the answer

552
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: would be.

553
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: It could be a hold back, for sure.

554
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: This is where if you have somebody who's wanting some

555
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: sort of notoriety for confessing to this crime, but is

556
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: not responsible that person provide the details that law enforcement

557
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: knows about the case. And it's easy to assume, well,

558
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: there's a sexual assault when you're dealing with female victims,

559
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: but well, what happened during the sexual assault? Give me

560
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: the details that I can corroborate with the physical evidence.

561
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: Allie wanted us to note, and I think is important.

562
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: There was a writer named Susan Kelly who wrote a

563
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: book in ninety six called The Boston Stranglers, and she

564
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: was able to access police records. I don't think anybody

565
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: else had access before. So some of these details, like

566
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: the blood in the ears comes specifically from Susan's book,

567
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: but most of that comes from the police records. So

568
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: I think that's so far going to be one of

569
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: the most important sources that we have at this point.

570
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: The police think that these two murders are linked. So

571
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: these are both murders that are while one is in

572
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: Lynn and one is in Boston proper it seems like

573
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: kind of the same mom and it's within forty eight

574
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: hours of each other and within two weeks of Anna,

575
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: so they think everything is linked. All three of these

576
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: which seemed kind of quick to me. But I mean,

577
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: what do you think, so you know the things in common,

578
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: does it seem irrefutable that these three are linked.

579
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it's irrefutable. However, it's best to proceed

580
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,959
Speaker 2: with the investigation with the consideration that they are potentially linked.

581
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: Now you may find that they actually aren't. And so

582
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: in many ways, it's you're kind of having to investigate

583
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 2: these cases as standalone cases in addition to looking at

584
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: them as part of a series, and typically law enforcement,

585
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: particularly from this era, probably would not consider these cases linked.

586
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: So this tells me that these investigators are familiar with

587
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: the types of crimes that are occurring in this Boston

588
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: area and that these cases stand out. It's not like

589
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: they're having women strangled on a consistent basis over the

590
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: course of the last ten years by a variety of

591
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: different offenders. And you may think, well, that's kind of

592
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 2: well obvious. Well no, in the Bay Area, that's what

593
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: we were dealing with in the nineteen seventies is all

594
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 2: sorts of different serial offenders were committing almost like the

595
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: same type of crime at the same time.

596
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: Well, a little bit of a note, there's a movie

597
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: about the Boston Strangler, and it stars Kiera Knightley and

598
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: Carrie Coon, which I've heard is a great movie. So

599
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: the real reporters were named Loretta McLachlin and Gene Cole,

600
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: so they get a lot of credit for linking these

601
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: cases together, but it seems like the police were already

602
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: on that track to begin with, just like you had

603
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: mentioned sort of the circumstances. But these two women were

604
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: the ones who coined the phrase Boston Strangler, just like

605
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: Michelle McNamara came up with the name. The press always

606
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: has I think the best names, right, she came up

607
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: with Golden State Killer, right.

608
00:33:54,920 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: Because you know, people think law enforcement develops these monikers themselves, generally,

609
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 2: don't you know, So it's the press that will come

610
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 2: up with Easteria rapist, Vicelia Ransacker. And then Michelle of

611
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 2: course was like, well what does that mean? And let's

612
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 2: come up with Golden State Killer. And you know there's

613
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 2: some you know, professional friends of mine really abhor the

614
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: use of monikers because it seems like it glamorizes the

615
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: bad guy. But the reality is that there's a practical

616
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 2: aspect if you've got multiple serial killers like Sacramento had

617
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: multiple rapists in the nineteen seventies committing attacks at the

618
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 2: same time, it's so much easier to say, well, these

619
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 2: cases are associated with easter A rapists, these cases are

620
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: with the wooly rapist, et cetera, versus well, you know,

621
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: case number eight over here is a different guy, you know,

622
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: So it's just an easy way to check the box going, Hey,

623
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: this group of cases is associated with this particular offender

624
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 2: who goes by this moniker.

625
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: Well, and I think also from the precess standpoint, having

626
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: that phrase Boston strangler in a headline, you're going to

627
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: get so much attention because people recognize it. You don't

628
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: have to tell the story maybe over and over again

629
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 1: because they've been keeping up with this one particular series

630
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: of murders. And yes, it's the salacious part of it,

631
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: but more eyes on a story like this when they're

632
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 1: pursuing someone I assume would be better. So these two

633
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: women came up with Boston strangler. So now we have

634
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: Paul three victims right now. Okay, so we've got Helen,

635
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: and then we've got Anna. Then we've got Nina and

636
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: we have Helen. So they've made this connection. And here's

637
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: some more information that we have about Helen and about Nina.

638
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 1: In both cases, the police think that the women must

639
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: have known their attacker or believed him to be like

640
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: some kind of service provider. I don't know who that

641
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: would be, maintenance person. Because there was no sign of

642
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 1: forced entry in either apartment. We've talked about this over

643
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: and over again again. Will not show a sign of

644
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: forced entry. You can scare somebody and they'll go right

645
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: back into the apartment. But you know, it seems significant

646
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: there's no sign of forced entreat. Both women were sexually assaulted,

647
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: and you know, both apartments have been ransacked. So is

648
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,439
Speaker 1: the ransacking kind of secondary? I'm assuming the primary has

649
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,720
Speaker 1: to be the sexual assault.

650
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 2: No, for sure, you know, and offenders like like I

651
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: speculate with with Anna, you know, it's possible that this

652
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: offender is looking for her underwear drawer, you know, to

653
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: take something with him, and you may have the same

654
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 2: thing happening with Nina and Helen. But offenders will if

655
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 2: they're committing you know, let's say these sexual homicides, they

656
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 2: also will steal valuables for financial gain. You know, they're

657
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: doing both, you know, so it really is going to

658
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 2: be depended upon Okay, where is the offender targeting to

659
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 2: do this ransacking, if you will. If it's areas where

660
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 2: the victims likely would have kept let's say, their jewelry,

661
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 2: then maybe he's financially motivated. But if he's going through

662
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 2: the drawers and it's clothing stuff, then that sounds more

663
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: of what we would call a fetish burglar, even though

664
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: in this case he's a serial killer.

665
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: Well, now we're moving on to potentially a fourth victim,

666
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: and now you're going to have to tell me what

667
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: you think because the police have their doubts. Less than

668
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: two weeks after that. So this is July eleventh, so

669
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: this is about four weeks from the beginning of the

670
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: series with Anna. There's a Roxbury woman which is in

671
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: Boston named Margaret Davis, and she's found strangled and killed

672
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: in a hotel in the South end of Boston. At

673
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: the time, her death is reported as connected to the others,

674
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: but ultimately the police don't really buy into that. She

675
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: checked in to a hotel that night with a man.

676
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 1: They both used fake names. I don't know much about

677
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 1: Margaret's background. Most people think that the man who checked

678
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: in with her killed her, and I don't know if

679
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 1: they've ever tracked down this man. But the police feel

680
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: like this doesn't fit in very well with the other ones,

681
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: even though she is strangled, So not every strangling is

682
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: connected to the Boston strangler. It sounds like just the.

683
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 2: Act of strangulation, whether it be manual or ligature, strangulation,

684
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 2: is a very very common way to kill somebody, particularly

685
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 2: if the offender is a more powerful human than the victim.

686
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 2: In terms of trying to connect Margaret to the other three,

687
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 2: just based on the fact that she was strangled, that's

688
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 2: just not enough data points for me to be able

689
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 2: to say, yeah, this must be connected. I think it's

690
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: evaluating more about Margaret and ultimately, you know, if she's

691
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 2: checking in under a pseudonym and this male is checking

692
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: in under a pseudonym, well they're going to the hotel

693
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 2: to have sex, and so there's a chance that there

694
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 2: is DNA evidence that today, of course, we might be

695
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 2: able to use to see is Margaret truly connected to

696
00:38:58,440 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: the other three.

697
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to take Margaret out of this, and

698
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: now we're back to three about a month later, on

699
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: August twenty first, So we started with June fifteenth, so

700
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: you know, a little more than two months later, they

701
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: discover a body of a seventy five year old woman.

702
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: Her name is Ida Irga, and she's found lying between

703
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: two chairs in her apartment. And this is what I

704
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 1: meant by positioning. So she is found lying between two

705
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: chairs with one foot propped up on each chair. This

706
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: is withheld from the press. It's reported that this has happened,

707
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: you know, in her fifth floor apartment. She has been

708
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted and she's also been strangled in this case

709
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: with a pillowcase. And then we can talk about some

710
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 1: blood because there's a little bit more blood in this

711
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: case than what we've experienced. So lying between two chairs

712
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: with one foot propped up on each chair, what does

713
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 1: that mean?

714
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: The immediate thought is this could be a form of posing,

715
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: you know, where the offender has taken the time in

716
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 2: order to put her feet up on these chairs. And

717
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: this may have a significance to the offender. This may

718
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 2: be something that he you know, what I would call

719
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: is trying to do a taunt, you know, in terms

720
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: of putting this victim's body in an unusual position to

721
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: where now he's trying to convey a message to the

722
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 2: people who either find the victim or to law enforcement

723
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 2: themselves right now, Like I can think of a case

724
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: in which the offender put the woman's legs up onto

725
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: a sofa after he cut her throat, and the reason

726
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: the offender did that was to aid in her bleeding out.

727
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 2: Doesn't sound like that's the scenario here, So right now,

728
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 2: I'm going to say that this appears that it's a

729
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: type of posing. Can't say exactly what the offender is

730
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: thinking by doing this.

731
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: So and then I want to talk about objects as

732
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: far as what you're choosing, what he's choosing to use

733
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: on these different victims, because you know, we have panty hose,

734
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: I mean they're found objects. It's panty hose. In Anna's case,

735
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: it was the belt around her house coat. Then we've

736
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: got panty hose in Helen and Nina's case. And now

737
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: we're talking about a pillow case. So let me tell

738
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 1: you about blood. First. There's dry blood under her body

739
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: and blood covering her face, her mouth, and her ears.

740
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: There is a trail of blood leading from her bedroom

741
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: where it looks like the attack originated, to where she

742
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: is found in the living room. Does that mean she

743
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: was carried and placed Do we think I don't have

744
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: photos of that before you ask about.

745
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: No, that's where I would need to see the blood patterns,

746
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 2: the blood flows on her. I mean, she gets a

747
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: bleeding injury, and right now I don't know what that

748
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: bleeding injury is. But let's say you have let's say,

749
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: a laceration to your scalp, and now you go upright,

750
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: you stand up, or you're seated, that blood is going

751
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 2: to flow with gravity. If you see blood flows that

752
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 2: are flowing let's say from her forehead backwards, then that

753
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: sounds like if she's bleeding in the bedroom, sounds like, well,

754
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 2: she is in a face up position during the time

755
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: which she is moved from the bedroom to the final position.

756
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 2: So that's part of the evaluation of the blood patterns

757
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 2: to try to reconstruct, well, what exactly is going on

758
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: with Ida and the movement of her body.

759
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's see. I wish we had some photos

760
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: of that. I was searching around for that too, but

761
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like we do. Police do question a suspect,

762
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: but we don't know what this person's name is. He

763
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: had been in Boston at the time of the earlier

764
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: murders also, but had since gone home to Rye, New York,

765
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 1: which is an affluent suburb, and was not in Boston

766
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: during Ida's murder. He's reported to be from a prominent family,

767
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 1: but you know, after Ida's murder, police cross them off

768
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: the list. So he was looked in for the first

769
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: few murders, and then when Ida's murder came and he

770
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 1: wasn't here, they assumed that he shouldn't be questioned any

771
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: further on the other three murders. Do you agree with that?

772
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it depends on how strong of a suspect he

773
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 2: was for the other three, you know. And then this

774
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: is also going can you truly link Ida's homicide to

775
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 2: the first three? You know, right now it's say he's

776
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: at least a suspect. They have tabled him. I would

777
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: say he's not eliminated from the first three based off

778
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: the fact that he did not. I mean, they can

779
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: alibi him out for for Ida's case. But one of

780
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: the things that you know, you brought up the ligatures

781
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: that this offender is using, and I do want to

782
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 2: kind of address that. It is very, very common for

783
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: these serial predators to utilize women's clothing articles to strangle

784
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 2: them with. That is a frequent finding when you have

785
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 2: strangul homicides of females, and oftentimes it is pantyhose or bras.

786
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 2: And part of this is the practicality you have in

787
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 2: essence of cordage, you know, that can be fashioned out

788
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 2: of these these women's clothing articles and used as a ligature.

789
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 2: But there's also an aspect that this is part of

790
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 2: the offender's fantasies. You know, if you ever pay attention

791
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: to the imagery in those old true detective magazines, you

792
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: frequently see women who are strangled and bound with pantyhose.

793
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 2: This is the type of imagery that these offenders look

794
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: at and they develop fantasies about. And so with two

795
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: of the women, Nina and Helen, you know, they're both

796
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 2: strangled with their stockings, and then Helen had the bra

797
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: also around her neck. However, with Anna, the first one,

798
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 2: she had the jacket belt and then Ida had a

799
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 2: pillow case. Well, those objects seem to be more chosen

800
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 2: for the practical aspect there within reach, and the offender

801
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: knew he would be able to use them as ligatures.

802
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: So at this point I'm kind of leaning towards even

803
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 2: with the women that are strangled with the stockings that

804
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 2: may not be purposely chosen for sexual fantasy aspects. It

805
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 2: may be the practical aspect of this is something that

806
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 2: is well within reach while he's interacting with those victims.

807
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 1: You know, my first book was about the serial killer

808
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: John Reginald Christy, who was in nineteen fifty two nineteen

809
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: fifty three London, and he strangled the majority of his

810
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: victims with pantyhose, and when asked later on about it,

811
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 1: he had always felt very physically weak. I remember him

812
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: saying panty hose made it easier than using his hands,

813
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: which I thought was interesting. I mean, is that the

814
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: case there's such a small area with panty hose, you

815
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: can really cut off the air quickly, right.

816
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 2: Pantyhose are extremely effective ligatures, and they're easy to tie

817
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 2: into a tight knot in many ways. Yes, I agree

818
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: that for Christy, you know, sounds like he recognized, probably

819
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 2: through practical experience, that it was very hard for him

820
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: to manually strangle a victim. And I've actually heard other

821
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 2: offenders or read other offenders who have come to that

822
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: same conclusion. They're going, it's a lot harder than what

823
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 2: I thought, including the Happy Face killer.

824
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 3: I think Jess.

825
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 2: Person, huge, huge man, and he in his if you

826
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 2: want to call it a biography, you know he's talking

827
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: about Yeah, I was surprised at how hard it was

828
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 2: to strangle. And this is where offenders may initially manually strangle,

829
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 2: but then they will grab the pantyhose and basically since

830
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 2: that onto the net to be sure that the victim

831
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 2: is going to die.

832
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: And you've talked about that when we hear that phrase overkill,

833
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 1: where sometimes it's not overkilled with stabbing where you're so

834
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: mad at the person that you want to stab them.

835
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: As many times it's that you're so freaked out that

836
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: you haven't killed them that you're doing everything you can

837
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: to figure it out, right.

838
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's how many of these killers are expert killers,

839
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 2: you know. So I want to make sure this person

840
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: is dead. It's we see this all the time in

841
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: gang bang shootings. They will shoot their rival fifteen times

842
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 2: in the head, and part of that is to send

843
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,839
Speaker 2: a message, but part of it is just their inexperience.

844
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 2: They just want to make sure that the you know,

845
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,359
Speaker 2: the rival is dead. So that's where like I've got

846
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 2: a case where I have a father and son who

847
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 2: are executed and each was just shot a single time

848
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 2: in the back of the head. I'm going, that's not

849
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 2: a gang banger, you know, That's not that this person

850
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 2: had confidence that these bullets were going to do the job.

851
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,760
Speaker 1: When you were talking about the young boys or teenagers

852
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: attacking older women because they don't have that confidence, you know,

853
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: to overpower a woman in her twenties or thirties, I

854
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: was thinking also of Christie. So Christie, I think knew

855
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 1: his physical limitations, and his method from the very beginning

856
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 1: was to get women. This is starting with right after

857
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: writ in the middle of World War two, to get

858
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 1: women to come back and say, you have a bad

859
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: cough from smog. That's the other half of my book,

860
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: is a smog, you have a bad cough. I have

861
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: a certificate in first aid. And he would bring a

862
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: woman back and he would say, breathe this in. I've

863
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: made this concoction. Breathe it in. And it was like

864
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: a glass bowl almost that had kind of a mental

865
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: smell and it was vapors and they would breathe in.

866
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: But they didn't clearly see or understand that there was

867
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: a tube going also from the bowl to the back

868
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: of his stove. So that he could open the tap

869
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: and knock him out like that, and between that and

870
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 1: the hoes that he was able to do some pretty

871
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 1: horrific things. But it was interesting to think about that

872
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 1: sort of understanding what his limitation was.

873
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 2: I don't know if we're diverging a little too far,

874
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 2: but you think about some of these serial killers who

875
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 2: target men, and what is a common process They are

876
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: now dealing with somebody that is physically equal or maybe

877
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 2: even more capable than them. How do they overpower these

878
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 2: male victims? Well, they drug him, right, Randy Kraft. You know,

879
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: he's picking up young marines are much more powerful than

880
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 2: he is as a male, and he's drugging them. They

881
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 2: have no idea what he's about to do to them.

882
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: Well, the reason that I say that is we are

883
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: continuing on with older women. So we've got, you know,

884
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,879
Speaker 1: these women who are all older, and the youngest one

885
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: is fifty six, and Ida is seventy five. She's the

886
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: oldest one we have so far. Now we're going to

887
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: talk about Jane Sullivan and she's sixty seven. Do you

888
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: want to talk about age first? I mean this is

889
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 1: now number five.

890
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: I believe, Yeah, Well, there there's a definite pattern, you know.

891
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,280
Speaker 2: And and part of this is does the offender really

892
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 2: know these victims true age or is he just judging,

893
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: you know, certain criteria that he associates with an older

894
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 2: victim and that's why he's choosing these women. So with

895
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,919
Speaker 2: Anna being fifty six, significantly younger than the other three,

896
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 2: she made to his eyes may have looked older and

897
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 2: he may have thought she was older. Don't know, but

898
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 2: there's a pattern here. And now why is he choosing

899
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 2: women that are, you know, basically sixty years and older. Well,

900
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 2: he may have a sexual preference for older women, or

901
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 2: these women represent somebody in his life that he is

902
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: trying to get back at by proxy. He's like an

903
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 2: anger retaliatory victim. As an example, maybe he has a

904
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 2: mommy issue and these women, these older women are representative

905
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 2: of his mother, and so instead of attacking and killing

906
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 2: and sexually assaulting mom, he's doing it to these women.

907
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 2: That's just you know, speculation, but that's a real scenario.

908
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 2: That's like Ed Kemper.

909
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm just gonna say Ed Kemper, he had

910
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: a terrible childhood, he says, with his mother, and of

911
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: course kills her and does some pretty horrific things. But

912
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: and then he says that it's like over and over again.

913
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 2: Right, So that's where right now can't draw a conclusion,

914
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 2: but there is a pattern.

915
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 3: He is going after women that are sixty years or older.

916
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: Well, I didn't think you needed victims pictures, but I'm

917
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and email them to you right now,

918
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: just because I want you to see what he saw.

919
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 1: So if you when the email gets there, if you

920
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: look and open that up, let me know when you

921
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 1: get it. So I'm looking at newspaper clipping.

922
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:52,399
Speaker 2: I think newspaper clipping showing Anna, Helen Ida and the

923
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:53,720
Speaker 2: next victim, Jane.

924
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: They look older. Anna doesn't, but everybody looks older to me.

925
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 2: Oh, I will tell I think Anna looks older than fifty. Yeah,

926
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 2: you know, and part of it may be hairstyle. You know,

927
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you what what you would call this

928
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 2: these hairstyles. But all of these women have a shorter

929
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 2: hair style that you typically see women adopt as they

930
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 2: get older. I mean, all of them do look elderly

931
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 2: to my eyes.

932
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. Now we'll talk about Jane. How many

933
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: we have? Now, this is number six.

934
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 2: Jane is six and Anina Helen Ida, and Jane is

935
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 2: number five.

936
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 3: We've talked six, but we were not counting Margaret.

937
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: Okay, so Jane is number five. So I'm gonna put

938
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: you in charge of keeping track of all of these people. Okay,

939
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: here we go. She is sixty seven and this is

940
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: happening on August thirtieth, So we were at mid June before.

941
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 1: Now we're at August thirtieth, and this is victim number five.

942
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,399
Speaker 1: She's discovered in the bathtub, so this is different. She's

943
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,839
Speaker 1: discovered in the bathtub of her apartment. They actually use

944
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 1: the word post here. She's found naked, imposed on her

945
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: knees in the tub, with her feet eat up over

946
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: the back of the tub, and her face is on

947
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: the bottom of the tub, underneath the faucet, partially submerged

948
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: in about six inches of water. She's found with a

949
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: housecoat draped over her.

950
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting, Okay.

951
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: And they said she's been dead ten days. She had

952
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 1: lived by herself and no one came to check on her. Yeah,

953
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: so she was badly decomposed. But they're saying strangulation, but

954
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 1: he doesn't say with what to the press. So the

955
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: police say, we're back to Stockings two stockings, her stockings.

956
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,879
Speaker 1: It appears like she was not sexually assaulted. But I mean,

957
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 1: you know, we know the caveat to that there is

958
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 1: matted blood on the side of her scalp.

959
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 3: Is there pooled blood somewhere else in the house.

960
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 1: So the newspaper reports are there are no signs of

961
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: a struggle. So now you know, they're thinking that somebody

962
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: talked their way in. But police reports show there is

963
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: blood in multiple rooms of the house. It doesn't say

964
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: where they think it starts or stops, and it doesn't

965
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: say huge pools of blood. Sure her purse is found open,

966
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 1: there's no other sign of robbery. And they say the

967
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: outer door of Jane's apartment building was often left unlocked,

968
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: so anybody could come into the apartment building off the street.

969
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: But somebody would have talked their way in. I guess.

970
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 2: Okay, So the matted blood. The way I'm visualizing that

971
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 2: and I've seen this is it sounds like she may

972
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 2: have laid at a location with her hair in a

973
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 2: pool of blood, if you will, for a period of time.

974
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 2: Then the offender has moved her, but the blood has

975
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 2: started to dry in her hair. The offender is moving

976
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,399
Speaker 2: her into the bathtub. Now, the positioning of her on

977
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 2: her knees with her face down by the faucet, the

978
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 2: way you're describing that position, it almost sounds like he

979
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 2: was I don't know if it's true posing, or he

980
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 2: was actually placing her in the bathtub in order to

981
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 2: potentially drown her, you know, put her in a body

982
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 2: of water. Regardless, he's manipulating the body, probably after death

983
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 2: and moving her into the for some reason. But the

984
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:06,359
Speaker 2: covering with the house coat is significant when an offender

985
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 2: takes the time to cover, Oftentimes that offender is not

986
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 2: wanting to see what he's done to the victim. Sometimes

987
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,479
Speaker 2: this suggests that the offender and the victim had some

988
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 2: sort of knowledge of each other, like being a friend

989
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 2: or were in a relationship, and the offender is now

990
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 2: not wanting to be reminded of what he has done.

991
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 2: So the covering of the body does have some behavioral

992
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 2: significance that could limit the suspect pool Now, not necessarily.

993
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 2: You know, he may be covering her. He may be

994
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 2: an absolute stranger to Jane and he's just taking the

995
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 2: time to cover her for one reason or another. But

996
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,280
Speaker 2: I pay attention to that type of action and it's like, Okay,

997
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 2: why is the offender covering Jane.

998
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 1: Well, now there's even more detail that I think complicates things.

999
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 1: Police are feel like they're on a little bit of

1000
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: a track because I know I kind of screwed over this.

1001
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: But we have three victims now who are all in healthcare.

1002
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 1: There were at different hospitals, but Nina was a physical

1003
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 1: therapist at one hospital, Helen was a nurse at another hospital,

1004
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 1: and Jane was a nurse at a different hospital. We

1005
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: also have Anna, who was unaffiliated with a hospital. She

1006
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 1: was a seamstress. I didn't I mean, she was retired.

1007
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: I don't think she had anything happening. She was seventy five.

1008
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 2: And I think it's important, you know, to look for

1009
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 2: those types of patterns in the victimology and go, oh,

1010
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 2: there seems to be a bump in terms of this

1011
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 2: medical connection that the victims had. However, you also have

1012
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,720
Speaker 2: to take into consideration, well, this is a pretty common

1013
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 2: profession for women, especially in nineteen sixties, right, the nursing aspect.

1014
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 2: So just by chance are you going to have during

1015
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 2: a series, are you going to have multiple women that

1016
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: are all nurses? I would say, yeah, there's a likelihood

1017
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,919
Speaker 2: you know, But after all, consider is he choosing these

1018
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 2: women based off of their occupation? Is he at a

1019
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 2: medical facility, following them home or whatever? That's always a possibility.

1020
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: Well, here we go. The police commissioner now says older

1021
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: women need to keep their doors locked securely, not to

1022
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: open the door for anyone they don't personally know. So

1023
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,959
Speaker 1: now they're trying to alert older women that this guy

1024
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: might be targeting them. So I don't know if he

1025
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: reads the news poll, but there's a break in the

1026
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 1: strangling for several months, so he doesn't do anything for

1027
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: several months that we know of. So we went from

1028
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:42,919
Speaker 1: August thirtieth now until December fifth, and now we're going

1029
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 1: in the totally opposite direction because our next victim is

1030
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: a nineteen year old college student. And you know that happens,

1031
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 1: of course a couple months later. But that is with

1032
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 1: the last victim is when the police commissioner said, if

1033
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 1: you're older, you better watch out, And now we're at

1034
00:57:57,640 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: a nineteen year old. Do you think that's a coincidence?

1035
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 2: You know, I think the offender is following the news

1036
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: and is now shifting, But there also may be a

1037
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 2: evolution of the offender A natural evolution of the offender.

1038
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 2: It's sort of like talking about when you have the

1039
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 2: very elderly victim, you're looking potentially at a non confident

1040
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 2: teenage boy or somebody who doesn't have the confidence to

1041
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 2: take on a more robust victim. You may have an

1042
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 2: offender in this series who has now killed five women

1043
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 2: and now has the confidence of being able to commit

1044
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 2: these types of crimes and is now shifting to a

1045
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 2: younger victim. But I'm very curious to find out about

1046
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 2: what happened to this nineteen year old.

1047
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 1: Well, and this is also another deviation because all of

1048
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: the victims before, the five women before, were white, and

1049
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: this woman, Sophie Clark, is black. Okay, let me tell

1050
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: you about Sophie, and then let me tell you about

1051
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: a case in between Jane the seventy five year old

1052
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: and Sophie the nineteen year old, and whether or not

1053
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: that fits in between, because there's a lot of debate

1054
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: about another woman who happens in between, but we just

1055
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 1: aren't sure. So December fifth, I'm sure it's cold, it's Boston.

1056
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: There's a nineteen year old college student, Sophie Clark, as

1057
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 1: I said, she's found naked by her roommate in the

1058
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 1: entry way of her apartment, and she's been strangled with

1059
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 1: three silk stockings, and her half slip is also found

1060
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: around her head and her neck. There's a handkerchief in

1061
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 1: her mouth. There's evidence she's been sexually assaulted, and I

1062
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: think for the first time there is seamen found. It's

1063
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: on a rug near her. So that's Sophie. But then

1064
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 1: I can tell you, you know, of course, about the one

1065
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: in between and the debate. They're in back Bay by

1066
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 1: the way, which is where Anna lived, our first victim.

1067
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 1: The buildings are actually only about one hundred yards apart

1068
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 1: in this case.

1069
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 2: You know, I think one of the things that stands

1070
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 2: out about Sophie case. You know, she of course is

1071
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 2: being strangled with the stockings, just like we see with

1072
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 2: some of the prior victims. The handkerchief in the mouth,

1073
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 2: and I'm assuming this this handkerchief is something that was

1074
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 2: Sophie's or present within her room or something, and is

1075
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 2: not the offender's.

1076
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: Handkerchief, not that we know of.

1077
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 2: You're right, okay, so you know that might be an

1078
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 2: act the offender is doing in order to gag her,

1079
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 2: you know'll just prevent her from being able to scream

1080
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 2: out while he's attacking her, the semen being found on

1081
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 2: the rug, I would not be shocked if there was

1082
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 2: semen nearby. With these other cases, this guy's masturbating after

1083
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 2: he's killed these victims or while he's you know, holding

1084
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 2: them down, and they just didn't look for it and

1085
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 2: didn't see it as easily as the semen stain was

1086
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:52,439
Speaker 2: apparent in Sophie's case.

1087
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: Well, let me take let me finish up with Sophie

1088
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:56,919
Speaker 1: and then I'll tell you about the woman who came

1089
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: in between. There's a neighbor in the building that tells

1090
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: the police that the same day that Sophie was murdered,

1091
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 1: a man had gotten her to open up her apartment

1092
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 1: door to him, claiming to be a house painter. But

1093
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 1: the neighbor says she could hear him using crude language

1094
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 1: with Sophie, and basically Sophie said, you know, you've got

1095
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 1: to go. My husband's coming home. She wasn't married, but

1096
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: that's how he left. They have not been able to

1097
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: find this guy. It sounds like they've questioned people, the

1098
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 1: men throughout the building and got nowhere with this, So

1099
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: that could be how this guy has gotten into everybody

1100
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 1: else's house before. He said, I'm a house painter.

1101
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 2: So if I understand right, a witness actually hears somebody

1102
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 2: posing as a house painter and interacting with Sophie prior

1103
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 2: to the date of the homicide.

1104
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 1: It looks like earlier in the day.

1105
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 2: Earlier in the day, and then he comes back at

1106
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 2: some point after that. Is that how I'm interpreting things?

1107
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 1: I don't know that. The neighbor says. This guy shows

1108
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 1: up early. He says, I'm a painter. Sophie's kind of

1109
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:03,880
Speaker 1: talking to him, and then he starts saying some obscene

1110
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 1: things with crude language, and she says, my husband's coming.

1111
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 1: You better get out of here, and she shuts the door,

1112
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:12,439
Speaker 1: and then she's dead hours later.

1113
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 2: All right, So we don't know exactly how this man,

1114
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 2: if he is the killer, how he's getting back into her.

1115
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 1: Apartment exactly, But again no signs of forced entrgue with

1116
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 1: Sophie's apartment. She is studying to be a nurse. We

1117
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 1: do not know if she had done any work in

1118
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: a hospital setting by this point. That's not something that

1119
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 1: the reporting came up with. But again the nurse, So

1120
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,480
Speaker 1: now they're going to be warning people in healthcare between

1121
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: the ages of nineteen and seventy five. I'm assuming, you know,

1122
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 1: they're trying to figure out who is this guy targeting

1123
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 1: at this point.

1124
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 2: You know, Sophie obviously stands out because of her race

1125
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 2: and her age. However, it is not uncommon to see

1126
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 2: in a series victims of a variety of races, of

1127
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 2: a variety of ages, even though she's a young black female.

1128
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 2: Most certainly this seems to be consistent with the same

1129
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:10,800
Speaker 2: offender as with the older women.

1130
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:12,960
Speaker 1: And we saw that with Cottingham too. In that case,

1131
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 1: there was a variety of different types of people. So

1132
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 1: the case in between Jane at the end of August

1133
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 1: and Sophie in December, there was a woman named Modeste Freeman,

1134
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 1: thirty seven, also black. She was killed and her body

1135
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 1: was found in the street in Boston. She was strangled,

1136
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: but she was also very badly beaten, and ultimately the

1137
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 1: police don't think this is part of the series, even

1138
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 1: though she was younger and black. So there are some

1139
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: people who believe that she was the first in his

1140
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: deviation away from elderly white women, but the police aren't

1141
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: buying into it. It's a little different in the street

1142
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 1: and severely beaten. We haven't had that with any of

1143
01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 1: the other victims. But I also know there could be

1144
01:03:58,840 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 1: escalation and all of that.

1145
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 2: Oh, sure, there's so many dynamics that can occur during

1146
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 2: the commission of a crime. You know, she fought back harder,

1147
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 2: He's having to amp up the violence to keep her

1148
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 2: under control. This is just where there isn't enough information. Yeah,

1149
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 2: and this is where it's very very hard to do

1150
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 2: linkage based off of circumstances because most certainly this offender

1151
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 2: could attack a woman out there on the street. It

1152
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 2: sounds like it's such a significant deviation that it must

1153
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 2: be a different offender.

1154
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 3: It's like, no, it could be.

1155
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 2: But you also have other crimes occurring that are unrelated

1156
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 2: to the series. So this is where in this particular case,

1157
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 2: you still have to consider it as maybe part of

1158
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 2: the series, but you also have to consider it.

1159
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 3: As stand alone.

1160
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 2: And nowadays is where he goes, I hope there's DNA.

1161
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 2: Can I associate this case with the others or do

1162
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 2: I have offender DNA? It's showing that it is not

1163
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 2: part of the series. It's really tough to draw conclusion

1164
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 2: just based off of this type of information.

1165
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 1: Well, who is considered officially Victim Number seven is a

1166
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 1: woman named Patricia Bessett. She's twenty three. She's found in

1167
01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 1: her apartment, which is also in Back Bay, just like

1168
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 1: Sophie Clark's apartment and Anna's apartment. Police believe that she

1169
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: had been killed the night before, so her body's discovered

1170
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 1: on New Year's Eve, but they think it happened on

1171
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 1: December thirtieth, so this would have been a few weeks

1172
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 1: three weeks or so after Sophie's murder. She's in bed,

1173
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 1: covers are pulled up to her chin. She's been strangled

1174
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 1: with several stockings tied together with a shirt. There's evidence

1175
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 1: that she This is what I was confused about. Okay,

1176
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 1: there's evidence that she had had sex shortly before her death,

1177
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 1: but it's not clear that she was sexually assaulted. She

1178
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 1: has a boyfriend who is cleared. What does that mean?

1179
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 1: Why would they think that there's evidence that she had sex.

1180
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 1: They don't say condom or anything like that. I don't know.

1181
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 1: I was confused.

1182
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 2: My thought is is that, you know, it's possible that

1183
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 2: they're seeing some sort of drainage, vaginal drainage. Okay, why

1184
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 2: they don't think that it's related.

1185
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: Not enough trauma, probably see.

1186
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 2: And that's that's just such a misconception, you know, that

1187
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:21,160
Speaker 2: that a sexual assault, the act of rape is going

1188
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:27,040
Speaker 2: to just completely traumatize injure if you will, vaginally, erectly,

1189
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:29,960
Speaker 2: And that's that just doesn't happen that frequently. Sometimes you

1190
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:31,320
Speaker 2: see it, oftentimes you don't.

1191
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 1: And just to be clear, now Patricia is another woman

1192
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:38,680
Speaker 1: who is white. So you know, we had Sophie Clark

1193
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 1: and now Patricia is back to well, I mean she's

1194
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:43,720
Speaker 1: young too, twenty three now.

1195
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 2: But this is just part of any series, you know,

1196
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 2: as you start to see the different victims that the

1197
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 2: offender is going after, why is he choosing these victims?

1198
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 2: Sometimes it is opportunity that overrides everything else, you know.

1199
01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:00,160
Speaker 2: And so maybe he saw an opportunity with Sophie, and

1200
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 2: even though she doesn't fit in from a race standpoint

1201
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 2: with the other victims, he's just now, I've got an

1202
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 2: opportunity here, I'm going to go after her. With Patricia,

1203
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 2: i mean, she's attacked in her bed, she strangles, talkings

1204
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 2: that he's put the sheet up over her, he's covering

1205
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 2: her up. I would say he's almost leaving her to

1206
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 2: make it look like she's asleep.

1207
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 3: Right.

1208
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 2: But there's that again, that behavior of covering the body

1209
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 2: that might be similar to what he did with Jane,

1210
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 2: covering her with the coat in the bathtub. He may

1211
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 2: psychologically be doing that to these particular victims for some reason.

1212
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he didn't do that with a He posed

1213
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:44,360
Speaker 1: the woman with one foot up and you know, on

1214
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 1: one chair and one on the other. It seems so different.

1215
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 1: The police wonder if he knows her because there's two

1216
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:54,000
Speaker 1: cups of coffee, one black and one with cream, and

1217
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 1: so they're thinking, oh, maybe she knew them. I'm not

1218
01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 1: really buying that, but who knows. Maybe you know, he

1219
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:03,240
Speaker 1: pretended to be a painter and she came in, and

1220
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: you know, we don't really know she is one month pregnant, Okay,

1221
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:09,479
Speaker 1: so she wouldn't have even known that she was. Most likely,

1222
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 1: I'm assuming rights.

1223
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 2: That's probably it likely if she's just one month pregnant.

1224
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:17,599
Speaker 2: Maybe she's starting to, you know, suspect that she's pregnant.

1225
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 2: But like the two cups of coffee, this is where

1226
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 2: like interviewing the boyfriend would be important. You know, Yeah,

1227
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,280
Speaker 2: were you over earlier or the night before, something that

1228
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 2: you guys have coffee, you know, does she have friends

1229
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,639
Speaker 2: that have come over and you know she's made them coffee.

1230
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 2: But it's also possible, you see these nice, nice individuals,

1231
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:38,639
Speaker 2: somebody posing as a house painter knocks on the door. Hey,

1232
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 2: come on in, I'll let you take a look at

1233
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:42,640
Speaker 2: the apartment to see what your job is going to

1234
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:44,360
Speaker 2: be like, can I make you a cup of coffee?

1235
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 3: It turns out he's a killer.

1236
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's Those are all possibilities. So now

1237
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:53,480
Speaker 1: we have these seven victims, and we have a sprawling

1238
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:59,639
Speaker 1: case crossing over you know, different ages, different races, different

1239
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 1: areas of the city, but all either in Boston or

1240
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:05,680
Speaker 1: very close to Boston. We're trying to figure out. There

1241
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:08,800
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be forced entry. They all seem to

1242
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:11,560
Speaker 1: have been sexually assaulted in one way. Patricia is a

1243
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: big question mark. I'm not quite sure you know what

1244
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:17,479
Speaker 1: they're thinking they're But we still have more people to

1245
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 1: go and we have a hit capacity for part one

1246
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 1: of this episode. So you can wrap up if you want,

1247
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 1: or you can save it all all that energy for

1248
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 1: the second episode because there's a lot more happening.

1249
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:32,559
Speaker 2: Well, I think we should save it for the next

1250
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 2: episode and open up with a summary, just so we

1251
01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:37,599
Speaker 2: can get everybody caught up as to where where things

1252
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 2: are at.

1253
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:41,240
Speaker 1: We're on the same page, pole Holes as usual as.

1254
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:43,679
Speaker 3: Always, all right, Kate Dawson.

1255
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:47,799
Speaker 1: Okay, so I will see you next week and percolate

1256
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:50,919
Speaker 1: in your little mind what you want about the Boston Strangler.

1257
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 3: All right, sounds good.

1258
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

1259
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactly rightemedia dot

1260
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1261
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1262
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:11,439
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1263
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1264
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:16,600
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1265
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:18,879
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1266
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:23,280
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1267
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,920
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1268
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:28,160
Speaker 1: Baried Bones Pod.

1269
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:31,160
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1270
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:33,200
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1271
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:35,439
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1272
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold

1273
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:41,679
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now.