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Speaker 1: There would it be no audience, There would be no

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Speaker 1: success without you trusting us, without you being brave enough

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Speaker 1: to be vulnerable on camera and share your story. So

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Speaker 1: the fact that you feel like we did it right,

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Speaker 1: we did it with respect and reverence for you, and

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Speaker 1: that it felt redemptive for you, and that to me

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Speaker 1: means more than anything.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm

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Speaker 2: Jessica Osibeto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for

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Speaker 2: the Double The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series

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Speaker 2: explored the story of Robert Chin, the La based Chakaina

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Speaker 2: Church and Seven M Films. Chin founded Chakina Church over

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Speaker 2: two decades ago before establishing seven M Films and is

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Speaker 2: named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Cleah Gray, former member of Chakina Church and

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Speaker 3: Seven M Films.

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Speaker 2: In this episode, we sit down with Derek Doodein, the

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Speaker 2: director of the Netflix documentary Dancing for the Devil the

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Speaker 2: Seven M TikTok Cult. Derek shares his journey and bringing

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Speaker 2: the story of Kind and seven M to life, emphasizing

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Speaker 2: the importance of telling it from the perspective of former members.

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Speaker 2: He also discusses the cinematic influence that shape the visual

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Speaker 2: style of the series.

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Speaker 3: Derek explains how the documentary aims to support those facing

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Speaker 3: similar struggles and highlights the significant efforts his team undertook,

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Speaker 3: including a trip to Korea to capture an emotional conversation

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Speaker 3: between the Lease sisters.

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Speaker 2: It was really good to see him. I feel like

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Speaker 2: I hadn't seen him in a while. When you're used

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Speaker 2: to seeing someone every single day for two years and

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Speaker 2: then you don't see them for a month or two,

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Speaker 2: it just feels like a really, really long time. So

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Speaker 2: I'm so thankful to have had the opportunity to catch

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Speaker 2: up now.

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Speaker 3: Our conversation with Derek Donan, director of Dancing for the Devil.

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Speaker 2: Derek, welcome and thank you so much for joining us today.

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Speaker 4: Stoked to be here, ladies, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 5: We haven't spoken since the documentary came out.

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Speaker 3: I know you have a lot of other projects going

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Speaker 3: on right now, so I really appreciate you carving this

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Speaker 3: time out for us. One of the things I wanted

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Speaker 3: to know was what initially drew you to the seven

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Speaker 3: M documentary.

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Speaker 1: When that initial Rolling Stone story broke, it spread like wildfires.

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Speaker 4: You know, you were living it Clea And on our side,

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Speaker 4: I'm always.

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Speaker 1: Looking for projects that have a lot of heart, that

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Speaker 1: feel urgent, that are unfolding in real time if and

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Speaker 1: when possible, and this sort of ticks those boxes. And

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Speaker 1: then it was very quickly announced that HBO was doing it,

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Speaker 1: and Chrissy Tagan was involved, There's a whole other film team,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, I didn't even really think that

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Speaker 1: it could be a possibility. But little did I know

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Speaker 1: that Jess in the background had already been working on it.

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Speaker 1: And so when it came to me through Jess and Netflix,

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Speaker 1: it felt like something I could really sink my teeth into.

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Speaker 1: It felt like there was an opportunity to travel into

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Speaker 1: the genre in a way that felt fresh. These projects,

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Speaker 1: from what I have seen, tend to focus on the

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Speaker 1: cult leader, and you know, Robert has a similar playbook,

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Speaker 1: and it didn't feel like he needed any more shine.

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Speaker 1: And so it was like, let's give the audience the

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Speaker 1: context that's necessary to understand the journey of the subjects,

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Speaker 1: but really center the victim stories and let the experience

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Speaker 1: of what it feels like to come out of a

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Speaker 1: group like this and to lose somebody into a group.

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Speaker 1: You know that that felt like a fresh perspective and

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Speaker 1: one that was unresolved, you know, one that I felt like,

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Speaker 1: through our filmmaking process, perhaps we could help some of

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Speaker 1: the people as they go through their journey and we

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Speaker 1: could see a real transformation happening in real time in

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Speaker 1: front of the screen.

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Speaker 4: And that's a rare opportunity.

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine having done this project with anyone else

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Speaker 2: but you, Derek, and I'm so thankful. And I know

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of challenges for us along the

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Speaker 2: way because we were dealing with all of this in

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Speaker 2: real time. What challenges and rewards did you feel that

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Speaker 2: you experienced the most well filming and the process of making.

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Speaker 1: This trying to understand the complexities of what everyone was

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Speaker 1: going through in real time. There were so many different

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Speaker 1: people going through so much. Really sort of experiencing trauma

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Speaker 1: in real time, processing their trauma in real time and

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Speaker 1: asking somebody to do that on camera for an audience

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Speaker 1: of millions of people is a really sensitive, delicate ask,

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Speaker 1: and it's one that we took very seriously. And so

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Speaker 1: there were so many conversations that we were having with

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Speaker 1: each other with the subjects, with subjects who aren't even

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Speaker 1: in the show, behind the scenes all the time, really

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Speaker 1: just trying to understand where they were and whether we

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Speaker 1: felt okay, whether they felt okay sharing their story. I

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Speaker 1: think often going through this process can be cathartic, It

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Speaker 1: can help healing.

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Speaker 4: I've seen it before.

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Speaker 1: But we didn't ever want to put somebody in a

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Speaker 1: position that compromised their mental health, their safety, their integrity,

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Speaker 1: and so that was a constant conversation and concern of ours,

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Speaker 1: you know, so trying to navigate those bigger picture things

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Speaker 1: with the ever changing nature of the story, fears of

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Speaker 1: any sort of retaliation what Robert and people in the

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Speaker 1: church might be thinking or doing to us or the subjects,

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Speaker 1: in addition to just making sure we're.

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Speaker 4: There right with cameras in all the right moments.

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Speaker 1: And often it was just a you know, three person crew, right,

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Speaker 1: and so we didn't have you know, tons of support

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Speaker 1: when it came to.

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Speaker 4: Planning and executing these shoots. So it was really just the.

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Speaker 1: Small team of us that were wearing all the hats.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's like you know, typical and doc filmmaking,

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Speaker 1: and we had to stay on schedule. You know and

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Speaker 1: deliver a show, and we didn't know what the ending

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Speaker 1: was going to be, right. We were hopeful, you know,

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Speaker 1: Miranda would get out, right, Nick would get out, but

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Speaker 1: we weren't sure, and so we had to sort of

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Speaker 1: always plan around with contingencies and all the while do

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Speaker 1: so centering the subjects well being and still come out

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Speaker 1: with something that we were really proud of.

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Speaker 2: When we talk about not knowing where the story was going,

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Speaker 2: it's not just about the end. In the third episode

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Speaker 2: when we started this process, you guys were still in there.

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Speaker 2: The dancer were still in there, right, Alicia was still

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Speaker 2: in there.

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Speaker 5: So we were.

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Speaker 2: Really in the beginning molding as we were very hopeful

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Speaker 2: of what could potentially happen. But that idea that you

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Speaker 2: were a part of this from the beginning, I mean

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Speaker 2: we were, Derek how lot months in before that happened.

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Speaker 4: I feel like, yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 2: With other projects, is this the first one that you've

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Speaker 2: had to deal with like a project in real time?

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Speaker 4: Like this the first I think in a series.

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Speaker 1: And I got to give Netflix a little credit for

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Speaker 1: believing in us and believing that we will find our

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Speaker 1: way because you see it sometimes in feature docs where

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Speaker 1: I think there's a little less schedule pressure and you

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Speaker 1: have a little bit more malleability in the budget and schedule,

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Speaker 1: but you don't see it as much in series. Typically,

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Speaker 1: executives like to know what the ending's going to be,

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Speaker 1: and I've pitched stuff where they're like, we love the story,

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Speaker 1: but it's too uncertain. We don't know what's going to happen,

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Speaker 1: and we can't bank on anything, and so we're.

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Speaker 4: Going to pass.

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Speaker 1: And so you have to have them believe that one

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Speaker 1: way or the other we would be able to resolve

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Speaker 1: the story for the audience. I actually think in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways it drove some of the success of

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Speaker 1: the show, and that the audience felt like they were

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Speaker 1: coming into it feeling like they could participate in some

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Speaker 1: way and try and affect some change. Sadly, we still

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Speaker 1: haven't seen much, but we're hopeful.

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Speaker 3: In the lawsuit, that's very true. And also speaking of

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Speaker 3: the success, it did so well. The documentary was what

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Speaker 3: number one for however many weeks on Netflix?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, more than two weeks.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, especially being on the other end, like

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Speaker 3: how difficult it was for one us to confront these

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Speaker 3: very fresh things and just like the pain associated with

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Speaker 3: having to cut ties with people that many of us

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Speaker 3: have known for.

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Speaker 5: Years and leaving a very.

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Speaker 3: Dangerous environment, I would say, And for you guys to

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Speaker 3: have to deal with like our emotions and the things

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Speaker 3: that we were processing, and to still put out a

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Speaker 3: work that you put out, how well put together, how

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Speaker 3: beautifully thought out. I feel like a lot of our

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Speaker 3: story we're told in a great light. It really felt

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Speaker 3: like a redemption story for us. So thank you guys.

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Speaker 3: It has helped us and a lot of the other people,

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Speaker 3: even the ones who didn't go on camera, they really

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Speaker 3: appreciated the fact that it was out for the world

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Speaker 3: to see.

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Speaker 1: There would be no audience, there would be no success

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Speaker 1: without you trusting us, without you being brave enough to

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Speaker 1: be vulnerable on camera and share your story. So the

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Speaker 1: fact that you feel like we did it right, we

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Speaker 1: did it with respect and reverence for you, and that

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Speaker 1: it felt redemptive for you, that to me means more

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Speaker 1: than anything any award, any numbers, any success of the show.

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Speaker 1: That we honored you and in your story means the most.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely agree and with this process as well, Khalia. You know,

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of decisions that were being made

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Speaker 2: obviously in real time, and it was shifting, and the

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Speaker 2: timeline was also much longer than I think we anticipated.

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Speaker 2: So Derek a lot of times was picking up the

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Speaker 2: camera and he was running in and we're picking up

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Speaker 2: additional interviews because it is something that was so honest

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Speaker 2: and real, and with that obviously comes struggles with when

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Speaker 2: opportunities come up. And one of the things that I

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Speaker 2: wanted to talk a little bit about was Derek when

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Speaker 2: we traveled to Korea with the Lee sisters. So for

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Speaker 2: those that haven't seen the documentary, the Lee sisters are

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Speaker 2: Melanie Lee and Priscilla Lee, who also goes by Alisha

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Speaker 2: Priscilla Lee. They were both a big focus of the

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Speaker 2: documentary and the earlier days of Chicaina or as sometimes

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Speaker 2: as Kale and I referenced Chakaina one point zero.

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Speaker 5: Can you share a.

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Speaker 2: Little bit, Derek about why that was so important for

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Speaker 2: us to travel to Korea to capture the Lee sisters

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Speaker 2: together and what that heart wrenching moment was like of

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Speaker 2: the reconciliation between the two.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it should be worth noting for the audience

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Speaker 1: that that conversation in case there's any confusion, because we

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Speaker 1: don't explicitly say it in the show that the conversation

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Speaker 1: between Mel and Priscilla at the tea house that happened

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Speaker 1: in Korea on the trip to Korea, and it was

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Speaker 1: one that we knew was coming, we just didn't know

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Speaker 1: when it was going to happen. There's the scene where

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Speaker 1: they sit down in the back of Mel's house to talk,

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Speaker 1: and we had sort of anticipated that being the conversation

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Speaker 1: where the damn breaks open and they start sharing all

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Speaker 1: of these experiences and emotions and things that had happened

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Speaker 1: over the last ten years where they hadn't been in touch.

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Speaker 1: It was one of the first times that they were

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Speaker 1: really sort of coming together to try and do that,

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Speaker 1: and as you see in the show, it was really

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Speaker 1: awkward and it was a learning process for me. I

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Speaker 1: think as a filmmaker. I think coming into this, there

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Speaker 1: was this perception that, you know, when you get out

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Speaker 1: of something like this, that you're just so happy to

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Speaker 1: have your freedom and to reconnect with your family, and

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Speaker 1: that you can sort of start the process very quickly

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Speaker 1: of returning to normal, And I think seeing that conversation

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Speaker 1: really showed me how hard it can be and how

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Speaker 1: long of a road it is. To repair those relationships

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Speaker 1: and to repair yourself. So we knew that conversation, and

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Speaker 1: I imagine more have happened since we knew what conversations

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Speaker 1: like that were coming, and we were having conversations separately

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Speaker 1: with Mel and Priscilla as to whether they'd had any

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Speaker 1: conversations like that, whether they were starting to feel more comfortable,

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Speaker 1: because we wanted to be there, and so it didn't

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Speaker 1: happen by accident.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't planned. We didn't go there to have it,

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Speaker 4: but we figured.

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Speaker 1: It was hard to do in Los Angeles in the

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Speaker 1: environment that they were in because when they were getting

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Speaker 1: together often it was so that Priscilla could babysit. They

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Speaker 1: weren't going to have that conversation in front of Mel's daughter,

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Speaker 1: in front of her family, like it felt like it

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Speaker 1: had to be something very personal. And so when this

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Speaker 1: trip came up, and when they said we're going to

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Speaker 1: go back and try and sort of confront our parents

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Speaker 1: and go back to where this all started, Justin and

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Speaker 1: I looked at each other like, that's where this is

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Speaker 1: going to happen, right away from the pressures of daily life.

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Speaker 1: And I think where a lot of the trouble started.

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Speaker 1: I think that sort of led them to be in

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Speaker 1: a vulnerable enough place to where when someone like Robert

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Speaker 1: came knocking, it felt like a really good idea to

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Speaker 1: them at the time. I think that all started from

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Speaker 1: their upbringing in Korea and a lot of the instability

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Speaker 1: they had at home with their parents, and they wanted

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Speaker 1: to go confront their parents. So it felt really important

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Speaker 1: to just be there for that and be by their

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Speaker 1: side for the entirety of that trip if we could.

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Speaker 1: The fact that, again that both of them allowed us

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Speaker 1: to be there for something that was really challenging and vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: I'm just really grateful for that, and I think it

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Speaker 1: inspired and moved a whole lot of people.

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Speaker 3: After the break, we continue our conversation with Derek Doning.

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Speaker 3: This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be

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Speaker 3: right back.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now

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Speaker 2: back to our conversation with Derek Doninge.

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Speaker 3: I know for me and a couple of the other

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Speaker 3: dancers that the big moment for us in the documentary

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Speaker 3: was when they served Robert his papers.

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Speaker 5: That was the one that we all got a call

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Speaker 5: was like, did you see the part when they ran

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Speaker 5: in the restaurant and served the papers.

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Speaker 3: Those big moments in the documentary really just made it

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Speaker 3: so moving and so powerful, And I think I just

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Speaker 3: also wanted to know, are there any other specific moments

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Speaker 3: in the victim's journey that reallysated with you, as like

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Speaker 3: the filmmaker, the director.

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Speaker 1: So much of it, I mean, even filming the dancing

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Speaker 1: with y'all, I think was really special for me.

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Speaker 4: That was new because it felt.

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Speaker 1: Like a way to explore emotion in a context outside

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Speaker 1: of an interview setting and this is your language, right,

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Speaker 1: and to capture a feeling on film that's unspoken, I

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Speaker 1: think is really rare. And the fact that we were

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Speaker 1: able to do that, I was really proud of those sequences.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't just for style.

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Speaker 1: We all felt from the beginning that that was going

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Speaker 1: to be a way to tell the story, and I

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Speaker 1: think we were able to do that.

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Speaker 2: I cannot listen to Francis in the Light see her

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Speaker 2: out without getting emotional because of that sequence that was

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Speaker 2: edited so beautifully at the end of episode three. That

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Speaker 2: was this compilation of the dancers and all this emotion,

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Speaker 2: and every time the song comes on, I just I

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Speaker 2: feel it all. I can see the visual so perfect,

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Speaker 2: and I think it was just this moment that for us,

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Speaker 2: having gone through this process for two years and building

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Speaker 2: the relationships and friendships with people, and to have a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a positive, uplifting moment or something that

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Speaker 2: felt hopeful, regardless of whether the result was what we

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Speaker 2: wanted it to be, just a huge testament to you.

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Speaker 2: And I know that you spent a lot of time

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Speaker 2: making sure that that scene was done right, and so

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Speaker 2: huge kudos to you on really implementing that emotion that

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Speaker 2: those dance sequences were meant to bring out in the

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Speaker 2: way that you could storytell.

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Speaker 5: It was really beautifully.

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Speaker 2: Done and really well edited from you and the editing team.

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Speaker 4: So that a couple of things.

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Speaker 1: One with the dancers, Cleay, you'll remember this, like we

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Speaker 1: were throwing curveballs everybody like that. You know, everyone I

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Speaker 1: think has the music that they're used to dancing to,

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Speaker 1: and I know Kevin can just dance at anything, but

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Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to just throw some weird

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Speaker 1: shit at John and see how I But it was

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Speaker 1: more of like I want to capture some of the

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Speaker 1: emotion that I've been feeling when I listened to your

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Speaker 1: story and while I'm in the edit room, and I

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Speaker 1: want to see if that stirs up anything in the

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Speaker 1: way that you move your body and if you're going

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Speaker 1: to react to that in any kind of different way,

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Speaker 1: And we would talk about this is where this dance

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Speaker 1: might go, right, this is how we might use it.

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Speaker 1: These are some of the things that you said in

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Speaker 1: your interview that this footage might cover, So think about

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Speaker 1: some of that as you're dancing.

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Speaker 4: And so that was part of it, and that.

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Speaker 1: Scene that you were talking about specifically at the end

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Speaker 1: of the show, Jess, we cut that early on because

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Speaker 1: that was cut to mel dancing in the ring, which

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Speaker 1: was one of the first things we shot, and so

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Speaker 1: we got excited about the footage and we edited it

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Speaker 1: to that song very early, and we wanted to end

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Speaker 1: episode one with it, and people were looking at it like, guys,

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Speaker 1: this is the end of your whole show.

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Speaker 4: You can't put this in episode one. This has to

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Speaker 4: be the end of the show. So we kind of

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Speaker 4: knew were.

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Speaker 1: Like, okay, okay, and I was just I was like excited,

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Speaker 1: So I wanted to put it earlier, and so we

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Speaker 1: kind of knew, like, this is an emotional thing that

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Speaker 1: we know we can build to regardless of what happens,

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Speaker 1: we know that there's this cathartic moment that we hope

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Speaker 1: we can earn, and ultimately we did.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, thank you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I agree in that music has always held

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Speaker 1: a special place in my heart and I'm glad that

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Speaker 1: we found a place for it and that it resonated

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Speaker 1: so much.

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Speaker 2: So powerful Khalia. When it came to the dance sequences,

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Speaker 2: we actually had a shoot kind of a test for

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Speaker 2: the network, because it is unique when you're pitching that

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Speaker 2: these dance sequences are going to help us with the storytelling.

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Speaker 2: It was it was different for them, So we did

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Speaker 2: that as a test, and we actually did it right

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Speaker 2: after Mel's interview, and so there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: emotion happening and she was just such a trooper and

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Speaker 2: we ran out into a street in downtown and it's

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Speaker 2: pouring rain, and she was just a champ. And when

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Speaker 2: he said that we edited at early for the audience.

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Speaker 2: It was kind of our test shoot, and then we

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Speaker 2: realized how incredibly powerful it was.

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Speaker 1: And also just from like a stylistic standpoint, I think

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Speaker 1: when we are envisioning the dancing early on in the

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Speaker 1: conceptual phases, we were originally budgeting for like bigger, like

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Speaker 1: music video style shoots, almost with like bigger crew, more lights,

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Speaker 1: you know, something that was more choreographed. And then when

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Speaker 1: we did that test, we were like, oh, no, this

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Speaker 1: is right. We can keep the small team. We don't

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Speaker 1: need to put a lot of money on the screen,

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Speaker 1: so to speak. We don't need it to look and

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Speaker 1: feel big. It's better if it's raw and emotional and

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Speaker 1: the audience can feel that rawness. Let the lights be

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Speaker 1: in the shot, you.

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Speaker 4: Know what I mean. Let the camera just rove around and.

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Speaker 1: Let the lights be in the shot, find locations that

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Speaker 1: really speak to the emotion of the moment and the scene,

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Speaker 1: and let the dancing shine and the emotion shine.

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Speaker 4: And that was empowering because it allowed us to i think,

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Speaker 4: shooting more.

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Speaker 1: Of it than we had originally conceived, and for it

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Speaker 1: to become more of the cinematic language.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, proud of that.

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Speaker 2: When we returned the conclusion of our conversation with Derek,

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Speaker 2: this is forgive me for I have followed.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed.

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Speaker 3: Here's the conclusion of our conversation with Derek DONI. Were

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Speaker 3: there any films or cinematic styles that influence Dancing for

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Speaker 3: the Devil.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm sort of all over the map stylistically

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Speaker 1: when it comes to influences, and I tend to work

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Speaker 1: with filmmakers who straddle both worlds, scripted and unscripted as

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Speaker 1: much as possible. Obviously, Jess and her company they do

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Speaker 1: a lot of scripted work. Our lead editor, Parker cut

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Speaker 1: scripted movies. He cut sings saying this really beautiful eighty

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Speaker 1: twenty four film that just came out. The dps that

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Speaker 1: I like to work with come from both worlds as well,

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Speaker 1: so I tend to try and bring that language into

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Speaker 1: what we do in documentary.

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Speaker 4: As raw and real as it is, it's also entertainment.

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Speaker 1: Saw some people saying on Twitter that some of those

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Speaker 1: scenes felt like they could have been scenes from a

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Speaker 1: scripted movie, and I'm proud of that, right Like, I

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Speaker 1: think that's by design. Even if we don't have the

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Speaker 1: crew and the resources, we really are careful about how

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Speaker 1: we frame everything and what the language of this is

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Speaker 1: going to be. This is something where we wanted to

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Speaker 1: feel really intimate and personal and that we were in

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Speaker 1: your life and experiencing it alongside you.

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Speaker 2: That's something else too. I appreciated about you, Derek was

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Speaker 2: that you were always willing to like shift and evolve.

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Speaker 2: And again with the dancing for example, originally we had

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Speaker 2: like a fogger when we were filming with Kevin, and

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Speaker 2: when Kevin is doing what he does, which he's so

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Speaker 2: incredibly talented. You know, we're in this kind of dirt

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Speaker 2: area in downtown Los Angeles and he's just kicking up

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Speaker 2: the dirt as he's moving and Derek, I remember you

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Speaker 2: kind of shifting and being like, I want to capture

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Speaker 2: this because this is authentic and it's real, and it

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Speaker 2: was creating the vision of what we thought we would

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Speaker 2: want to get with a smoker, which is that.

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Speaker 4: What is that called hazer? That's the word.

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Speaker 2: Hazer there it is. But no, it was memorable for

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Speaker 2: me that scene when Kevin's dancing in the dirt, and

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Speaker 2: I do have to just say, Derek, thank you so

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Speaker 2: much because I learned so much from you in this process,

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Speaker 2: like the patients that you have in verite and letting

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Speaker 2: a scene just play out and like he was saying,

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Speaker 2: he would just set up the sticks and just let

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Speaker 2: it run. And for me, I'm very thankful because I

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Speaker 2: learned so much from you and how you are as

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Speaker 2: a filmmaker, you getting in there, which were very similar

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Speaker 2: in this way. You are running sound, you're running camera,

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Speaker 2: you're in the edit, you're doing it all. And being

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Speaker 2: able to see someone's vision come to life and it

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Speaker 2: be received the way that it did just made me happy.

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Speaker 2: And I know it wasn't always easy for us because

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Speaker 2: it was so real and there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: emotion and feelings and timelines and all of that still

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Speaker 2: comes into place. But thank you for just being a

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Speaker 2: great partner in this process and teaching me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, thank you. And it goes both ways for me.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's always about finding collaborators that

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Speaker 1: will fight for the integrity of the thing we're trying

443
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 1: to do, and you had that your company and Dirty

444
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,880
Speaker 1: Robber as well. It's like, we're not a big team,

445
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,879
Speaker 1: we're really really small, and so it's just essential that

446
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 1: we all are on the same page about what we're

447
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 1: trying to create and what we're trying to say, and

448
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 1: that we're not going to let it out of our

449
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 1: hands until we get there. And often that means a

450
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 1: lot of failure and trying things and knowing that you know,

451
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 1: we're going to learn more from the stuff that's not

452
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: working than the stuff it is, and that's just part

453
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 1: of the process and trusting that process. And you're talking

454
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 1: about those like three hour Verita scenes that we're filming.

455
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 4: Often I'll just set.

456
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,399
Speaker 1: Up the camera and I'll like, I'll walk away for

457
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 1: a while, you know, I'll just get my shot because

458
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 1: I don't want it to feel like we're in there

459
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 1: manipulating what's really happening. It's about trusting that we're going

460
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 1: to get the coverage in the three hours, and ultimately

461
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 1: that three hours is going to be cut down into

462
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,359
Speaker 1: three minutes or less. And so yeah, I learned a

463
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,639
Speaker 1: lot too, And I'm really really grateful for our team,

464
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 1: but mostly for Ukallea, mostly for y'all for again just

465
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: trusting us, because it would have been a lot easier.

466
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 4: To say no. You know, it would have been a

467
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,160
Speaker 4: lot of years say I'm.

468
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 1: Doing this healing on my own without you, who I

469
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: just met like that, That would have been a much

470
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 1: easier response.

471
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 3: Honestly, a little bit in hindsight, I could say saying

472
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 3: yes was the easier option because I was.

473
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 5: Able to like move in community and kind.

474
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 3: Of be thrust into a place where I had to

475
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 3: confront the things now versus later down the line.

476
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,199
Speaker 4: But that's scary. Was that scary for you?

477
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 5: It was scary at the time.

478
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 3: I think there was a moment when Aubrey was like

479
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 3: we in a cult, like even be able to admit that,

480
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 3: and then like I think a week later I met Jessica,

481
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 3: things were happening rapidly.

482
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 5: So for me, it really helped my healing.

483
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 3: Process to be able to like accept like, this is

484
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 3: what I went through, this is my story to tell,

485
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 3: and this is what I want to do moving forward,

486
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 3: and like even coming and being able to create this

487
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 3: podcast for me is such an amazing opportunity to work

488
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 3: through the issues that came up, you know, while filming,

489
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,959
Speaker 3: while going through the Chicaina and seven M situation. So

490
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 3: I do appreciate having this as an outlet and the

491
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 3: fact that I said yes to take it up.

492
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 5: I'm like so grateful that I did.

493
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 3: Because it's been able to help not only me, but

494
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,719
Speaker 3: other people in this situation and situations really similar to it.

495
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 4: That's great.

496
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: I know when I'm trying to process something, the easy

497
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 1: thing to do is to move past it. I like

498
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 1: tend to put a lot of my energy into my work,

499
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: into my family, and I think your instinct is to

500
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 1: just kind of say, I'll get to that later, Like

501
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: here's the thing I know I'm good at, you know,

502
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: like making the movies or being a dad or whatever. Right,

503
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: and so yeah, to say yes to something that you

504
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 1: know is going to force you to confront a lot

505
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: of these tough truths is the hardest thing to do.

506
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 4: So incredible, brieverin strength that it took to do that.

507
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 2: Thank you, absolutely agree and for you, Derek, after creating

508
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 2: the documentary series, what words of encouragement or advice would

509
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 2: you like to offer any individual who might be involved

510
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: in a cult like environment or a high controlled group.

511
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 1: I mean, hopefully watching this you can take from the

512
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: strength of Cleia and Kevin, Aubrey, Kylie, mel Priscilla, everybody,

513
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: even the parents you know who, many of whom are

514
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: still living this nightmare right that they were able to

515
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: find the strength to leave and that they're thriving outside

516
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: of the group. You know, I think so much of

517
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 1: what we see in the show and what I experienced

518
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: is that there's this incredible fear that if you leave,

519
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 1: terrible things are going to happen, because that's what's instilled

520
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: into you, that all of this proceved success that you

521
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: might be having is going to go away, the money

522
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: that you think you're earning is going to go away.

523
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: The terrible things are going to happen to your family

524
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: that you're going to go to hell. You know that

525
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: God will not look down on you favorably anymore. You know,

526
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: hopefully if you're in a relationship that's in a cycle

527
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: of abuse, you can also find strength in this.

528
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 4: Right.

529
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be a high control group. It

530
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: could be one person who sort of has control over

531
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: you that you can find the strength and the victims

532
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: in our show that we're able to walk away and

533
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 1: still find joy and happy and rediscover themselves and their

534
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: passions and their joy for life that you can do

535
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: the same thing. I'm still moved and inspired by the

536
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: courage y'all showed in doing that, and now seeing what

537
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: y'all are doing is like incredible. You know, you've really

538
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: come so far just the time that we were filming

539
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 1: and now beyond that, it just continues to grow. As

540
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: you've said at the beginning, like this story is not

541
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: over and that's life, right, these things live with us

542
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: and we continue to grow and evolve and change, and

543
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 1: seeing how far y'all have come is like it's sinsane.

544
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 4: You know.

545
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: That was my hope making mess that people could take

546
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: from some of that strength and be inspired in their

547
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: own lives.

548
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 2: As we talked about in this episode, the stories not done.

549
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 2: There are still people that are under the control of

550
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: this organization that are still a part of Chokina in

551
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 2: seven M and there's a lot that's happening behind the scenes.

552
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: There is multiple lawsuits happening. The parents are still very

553
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: much fighting for their daughter. We know that law enforcement

554
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 2: is looking into this, so we can only say so

555
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 2: much on the podcast because there is so much happening actively.

556
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 2: We don't want to stop providing a platform for people

557
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 2: to come forward when they are ready to share their

558
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: experience and for the audience. If you have additional questions

559
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: or you want to engage with us in this conversation

560
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: about seven M and Shakaina, please do send us an

561
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: email at Forgive Me pod at gmail dot com, and

562
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: we hope that in one of our episodes we can

563
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: help answer some of those questions that we receive.

564
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 3: If you found this conversation valuable. Please subscribe, rate, and

565
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 3: leave a review. Your support helps us reach more listeners

566
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 3: and share these very important stories.

567
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 2: We wish Derek all the best in his future projects

568
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: cannot wait to work with him again. We are truly

569
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 2: grateful for his remarkable work on this project and for

570
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 2: taking the time to chat with us today. If you

571
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 2: haven't watched Dancing for the Devil, the Seven and Them

572
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 2: TikTok Cult yet, be sure to check it out streaming

573
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 2: now on Netflix. This has been Forgive Me For I

574
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 2: Have Followed. We'll be back next week.

575
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 3: Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a production from

576
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 3: WV Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael tore podcast Network,

577
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 3: hosted by me Khalia Gray and me Jess cosobetto Forgive

578
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 3: Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson

579
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: and Sophie Spencer Zabos. Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself,

580
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 3: Wilmar Balderama, Leo Klam and Aaron Burlison at WV Sound.

581
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 3: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original

582
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 3: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts

583
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 3: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

584
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 3: you listen to your favorite shows.

585
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 5: See you next week, See you next week,