Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to Work in Progress friends. This week we have
Speaker 1: a guest that encompasses the idea of being a whip
Speaker 1: smart woman in the world. Today, I am so geeked
Speaker 1: to say this to you, guys, I'm actually kind of
Speaker 1: losing my mind. Today we are joined by none other
Speaker 1: than Melinda French Gates. She is a philanthropist, a businesswoman,
Speaker 1: and a global advocate for women and girls, and on
Speaker 1: a personal note, someone who has leveraged her platform for
Speaker 1: such goodness in the world. I have looked up to
Speaker 1: her for my entire adult life. For the last twenty
Speaker 1: five years, Melinda has led efforts to unlock a healthier,
Speaker 1: more prosperous, and more equal future. Did that at the
Speaker 1: Gates Foundation, and today she hads Pivotal, an organization that
Speaker 1: she formed in twenty fifteen that works to accelerate the
Speaker 1: pace of progress and advance women's power and influence, both
Speaker 1: here in the United States and all around the world.
Speaker 1: And not only does she have one of the most
Speaker 1: incredible professional resumes in the world, but Melinda has also
Speaker 1: managed to be an incredibly heartfelt and vulnerable and thoughtful
Speaker 1: leader for us. She is the author of the best
Speaker 1: selling book The Moment of Lift, out of which she
Speaker 1: actually created. Moment of Lift Books and Imprint, publishing original
Speaker 1: nonfiction by visionaries that are working to unlock a more
Speaker 1: equal world, and this year she is publishing her beautiful
Speaker 1: memoir the next day. The book is about transitions, the
Speaker 1: moments that we step out of our familiar surroundings and
Speaker 1: into new landscapes, the space where we're caught in grief
Speaker 1: or change or success or any kind of transition really,
Speaker 1: and she's chosen to open up and reflect about her
Speaker 1: own life in ways that had me flipping every page
Speaker 1: saying yes exactly. Her story is obviously her own, it's
Speaker 1: incredibly unique, and yet everything she shares will also feel
Speaker 1: so personal to you. I know because it felt so
Speaker 1: personal to me. Because the stories that she's telling illuminate
Speaker 1: universal lessons, whether they're about loosening the grip of perfectionism,
Speaker 1: helping friends navigate crisis, embracing uncertainty, all of it. Each
Speaker 1: and every one of us, no matter who we are
Speaker 1: or where we are in life, can be sure that
Speaker 1: we are headed for times of transition and with incredible
Speaker 1: warmth and grace, she has given us this book in
Speaker 1: a moment in time that I think we need some
Speaker 1: inspiration and some heart medicine more than ever. I am
Speaker 1: so absolutely honored to have her on the podcast today.
Speaker 1: Let's dive in with Melinda. Melinda, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining me today. It's such an honor to have
Speaker 1: you on the show as an early activist and a
Speaker 1: woman who's tried to use my relative platform to affect
Speaker 1: some positive change in the world. I have looked up
Speaker 1: to you for my entire adult career and yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: just so touched by this and so excited.
Speaker 2: Oh well, I'm really glad we could do this.
Speaker 1: Me too, And congratulations on the book. It's just so beautiful.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, before we dive into that and where we find
Speaker 1: you today, I'd love to go back in time. And
Speaker 1: I know you've shared some really beautiful stories about your life,
Speaker 1: your childhood. You know what an amazing role model your
Speaker 1: mother was to you. But for some of our listeners
Speaker 1: who maybe haven't read the book yet, can you take
Speaker 1: us back to let's say nine or ten years old
Speaker 1: and reflect a little bit with us on who you
Speaker 1: were as a kid, what your childhood was like, what
Speaker 1: you were really interested in.
Speaker 2: So I grew up in Dallas, Texas, in a suburb
Speaker 2: of Dallas, Texas, very close, tight knit community. We knew
Speaker 2: most of our neighbors on our street and on the
Speaker 2: street behind us. The moms kind of looked out for
Speaker 2: each other's kids and kind of knew what was, you know,
Speaker 2: going on, who was at whose house. And as a
Speaker 2: nine or ten year old, one of my favorite things
Speaker 2: was to ride my bike, being able to ride my
Speaker 2: bike places, you know, every year I got a little
Speaker 2: bit more freedom to ride further farther away from from
Speaker 2: the house, and just to be able to ride to
Speaker 2: the creek, or ride to the park, or eventually take
Speaker 2: my allowance and ride to my favorite store. Just that
Speaker 2: kind of sense of freedom and discovery. I've always loved summer.
Speaker 2: I mean, I liked school, but I didn't really love
Speaker 2: it until I got honestly to high school. So in
Speaker 2: the summers of like when I was nine or ten,
Speaker 2: I just couldn't wait for summer, you know, for school
Speaker 2: to be over and then just to be outside a
Speaker 2: lot playing. And I had a really good friend in
Speaker 2: the neighborhood. My best friend lived across the alley and
Speaker 2: down one house, and her mom was extraordinarily outdoors and athletic,
Speaker 2: which was a bit different than sort of my mom.
Speaker 2: And so the moms would often sign us up for
Speaker 2: activities together. And so my best friend Ellen and I
Speaker 2: used to go to the park and take swim lessons
Speaker 2: or go play tennis or whatever our moms could dream
Speaker 2: up as fun as far as fun summer camps for us.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's so great. Do you think if you could
Speaker 1: a little wrinkle in space time and hang out with
Speaker 1: yourself for an afternoon? You know who you are today
Speaker 1: with your nine year old self. Do you feel like
Speaker 1: you would see the woman that you've become in her?
Speaker 1: Do you see the same you know, kind of curiosity
Speaker 1: about others and excitement for community in that little girl
Speaker 1: when you look back.
Speaker 2: I think my sense of loving to be outdoors and
Speaker 2: loving to play and play in an athletic way, I
Speaker 2: call it be in my body, I think. And then
Speaker 2: this sense of discovery. In fact, my word of this
Speaker 2: year that came kind of came to me before the
Speaker 2: start of the year is discover. Like I love that
Speaker 2: sense of discovery, and so I think I still have
Speaker 2: a lot of those elements in me. I certainly would
Speaker 2: never have dreamt that I would become the advocate that
Speaker 2: I have become for women and girls around the world.
Speaker 2: That I just never you just I couldn't imagine that
Speaker 2: that sort of sense of wonder and discovery and play
Speaker 2: and athletic play. I think that's just been there for
Speaker 2: a long time.
Speaker 1: I love that. I was someone asked me about activism
Speaker 1: and particularly advocating for girls and girls' education around the world,
Speaker 1: and I was sort of reflecting, trying to figure out
Speaker 1: where the spark was lit, and I said, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe it was college journalism and political science. And my
Speaker 1: dad was the one who said, oh, give me a break.
Speaker 1: You were organizing walkouts at school in the eighth grade.
Speaker 1: You have always been like this, And I was like, oh, wow,
Speaker 1: it's so neat when your parents can sort of help
Speaker 1: you reflect on the things you're passionate about in your adulthood.
Speaker 1: And so I love that. I bet if we got
Speaker 1: to hang out with your nine year old self, there'd
Speaker 1: be kernels in there for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would hope. So I spent a lot of
Speaker 2: time climbing trees, not being able to bring my tennis
Speaker 2: shoes inside because they smelled so bad in the summer,
Speaker 2: you know, because I was out there so much, just
Speaker 2: slopping around. And it's funny because in Dallas there isn't
Speaker 2: a lot of nature nearby, I mean the park and
Speaker 2: the creek. But where I live in Seattle, we are
Speaker 2: just surrounded now by nature. And so one of the
Speaker 2: things I love to do in the summer with a
Speaker 2: friend is to paddle board or kayak or go out
Speaker 2: on our bikes. But yeah, and I think maybe friendship too.
Speaker 2: I knew the importance of friendship when I was little.
Speaker 2: I was lucky enough to have this friend across the
Speaker 2: alley and then girlfriends in my class. But I think
Speaker 2: hopefully some of those elements endure.
Speaker 1: I love that, and I think those are the things
Speaker 1: when you look back, you can you can kind of
Speaker 1: view the chapters of your life or the moments that
Speaker 1: helped you make a leap or evolve. And I think
Speaker 1: that's why your book strikes me so beautifully. The next
Speaker 1: day is all about transitions, and sometimes it's the thing
Speaker 1: you're not sure you can do that you you know
Speaker 1: you've got to break through your own glass ceiling to achieve,
Speaker 1: or after a loss, you have to reflect on what's
Speaker 1: most important to you. I'm curious as to how sitting
Speaker 1: down to reflect on transition in every sort of version
Speaker 1: it comes in, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly,
Speaker 1: the beautiful. What you feel like you've learned about navigating
Speaker 1: those those moments of time that are in the in
Speaker 1: between when something is changing. You know, do you feel
Speaker 1: like that that reflection made you ready to write the
Speaker 1: book or or did writing the book help you leap
Speaker 1: to the next phase.
Speaker 2: I think it was honestly a bit of both. I
Speaker 2: didn't when I first started thinking about transitions, I was
Speaker 2: really I wasn't thinking about a book. I was thinking
Speaker 2: about I've been honored and asked to do the Stanford
Speaker 2: commencement speech. And when I talked to the class presidents
Speaker 2: months ahead, saying, you know, what would you like me
Speaker 2: to talk about? What should I not talk about? And
Speaker 2: one of the things they talked about was that they
Speaker 2: felt like they were kind of on one track. You know,
Speaker 2: get this degree, go to this company, or start this thing.
Speaker 2: And they said, if you think there are room for openings,
Speaker 2: if you believe in leaving room for openings or new opportunities,
Speaker 2: can you talk a bit about that? And so as
Speaker 2: I wrote that speech, I realized, Okay, I want to
Speaker 2: talk about transitions. But it was afterwards that I went, oh,
Speaker 2: my gosh, I'm turning sixty. You know. The speech was
Speaker 2: last June. I was turning sixty in August, and I thought,
Speaker 2: my gosh, I have been through so many transitions, and
Speaker 2: so wow, maybe I have more to say on this.
Speaker 2: My mom says that by the time you get to sixty,
Speaker 2: you have a lot of things to say on a
Speaker 2: lot of topics, maybe more than you should. But as
Speaker 2: I started reflecting on the transitions, as I wrote the book,
Speaker 2: I realized that in those in between spaces is where
Speaker 2: the growth comes and where and even if their transitions
Speaker 2: maybe you didn't expect or you didn't want to go through.
Speaker 2: If you take the time, you grow a lot, and
Speaker 2: there's a lot of resilience that is formed. And even
Speaker 2: the transitions you expect or you want to come, they
Speaker 2: still require sometimes like going to transition to college, you know,
Speaker 2: transitioning to your first job. It takes a leap of
Speaker 2: faith and some courage, right, And so I realized, oh,
Speaker 2: that's actually where the magic is in life.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And there was something that struck me really early
Speaker 1: in the book when you were reflecting on being pregnant
Speaker 1: with your first daughter, Jen, and you talked about retiring
Speaker 1: from Microsoft at the time. And what really struck me
Speaker 1: is I realized you were talking about this retirement in
Speaker 1: a way that felt almost like reflecting on a calling.
Speaker 1: You knew that motherhood was a calling of sorts, and
Speaker 1: you also knew that you had the privilege in your
Speaker 1: marriage at the time to be able to do this,
Speaker 1: and knowing that you wanted to be the kind of
Speaker 1: parent that your mother was for you, And I wrote
Speaker 1: a note to myself and I said, this seems so beautiful,
Speaker 1: and I wonder if it felt that way, and I
Speaker 1: wonder if it also irked you that it always almost
Speaker 1: always has to be the woman who makes that choice.
Speaker 1: And then the thing that really knocked me over was,
Speaker 1: as you reflected further in that early chapter, you talked
Speaker 1: about how that pregnancy gave you freedom, you know, and
Speaker 1: you wrote freedom from perfectionism, from the crushing, relentless societal pressure,
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. I won't, you know, read you
Speaker 1: to you the whole way through, but it really shook
Speaker 1: me because the way you talk about it and you
Speaker 1: reflect on calling on freedom, on and essentially writing your
Speaker 1: own permission slip to live the way you want to.
Speaker 1: You write about it like a craving. And I don't
Speaker 1: mean a pregnancy craving, a food craving. I mean like
Speaker 1: a like a soulful craving to own yourself. It's such
Speaker 1: a cool way to open a book because I see
Speaker 1: so many versions of myself in these versions of you.
Speaker 1: Is it sort of surreal to shepherd your own story
Speaker 1: and the story of your daughter and the stories of
Speaker 1: so many other women in that way?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I think until you really, at least for me,
Speaker 2: until I sat and reflected even more on it, it
Speaker 2: was just a calling. I would just say, a knowing.
Speaker 2: I just knew I could not have the career that
Speaker 2: I had at Microsoft, which I loved. It is hard
Speaker 2: charging nine year career that I had always wanted, you know,
Speaker 2: I went from computer science to business school to that.
Speaker 2: But I knew I couldn't be the kind of mother
Speaker 2: I wanted to be unless I stopped doing that. And look,
Speaker 2: it is an enormous privilege, enormous And I even knew
Speaker 2: that at the time that I had enough resources that
Speaker 2: I could stay home, right, And it's funny because I
Speaker 2: also always knew I would go back and do something.
Speaker 2: I didn't know what, but I knew it wasn't going
Speaker 2: to be the same pace as what I was doing
Speaker 2: at Microsoft. And then I did. I got into it,
Speaker 2: and it just felt so good. It felt exactly like
Speaker 2: what I wanted to do. I had summers back, like
Speaker 2: one of the things I lamented when I went to
Speaker 2: Microsoft was it wasn't like college or high school where
Speaker 2: you had the summer off or your nine or ten
Speaker 2: year old self. And so all of a sudden, I
Speaker 2: had the summers back, and I have this little baby
Speaker 2: I can play with like, you know, I could take
Speaker 2: her when there's sandtoys to a beach nearby, or a
Speaker 2: picnic with other moms, or bicycle with her. But yes,
Speaker 2: I didn't realize at the time that I was chartering
Speaker 2: a course for myself of who I wanted to be
Speaker 2: in life. And I will say that as much as
Speaker 2: I absolutely loved it in the beginning, I did have
Speaker 2: a crisis of self about eighteen months or two years
Speaker 2: into it, because we moved from this beautiful kind of
Speaker 2: idyllic family house that I had picked out during our
Speaker 2: engagement down the Street into this enormous mansion, and I
Speaker 2: really had a crisis of self then because I was
Speaker 2: no longer a working a working woman. I have this baby,
Speaker 2: but here I am living in a house with a
Speaker 2: gate way up the hill and more security and much
Speaker 2: larger than I had wanted. So I really had to
Speaker 2: find myself in that period, and in a way, eventually
Speaker 2: philanthropy found me, or I found myself in it. And
Speaker 2: that is something I never ever would have predicted in
Speaker 2: life ever well.
Speaker 1: And that through line, because what I'm hearing you reflect
Speaker 1: on is having the courage to listen to your own
Speaker 1: inner voice. You call it a knowing. You knew that
Speaker 1: you needed to make this shift for this moment in
Speaker 1: your life. You knew that it wouldn't be permanent, but
Speaker 1: whatever came after wouldn't be the same necessarily, And it
Speaker 1: strikes such a knowing in me. I think my inner
Speaker 1: voice reading your words went, I know that I know
Speaker 1: what that is. And as I was reflecting on it
Speaker 1: and on this idea of craving and this idea of calling,
Speaker 1: it really struck me that you were talking about this
Speaker 1: this immense craving or knowing, however you define it, of
Speaker 1: our primal selves. You know that wildness of women are
Speaker 1: wizys that is so special in our circles. And I
Speaker 1: was thinking about how what it really is is your voice.
Speaker 1: Your inner voice can become the voice you use in
Speaker 1: the world. It's certainly a voice that, as someone looking
Speaker 1: in on your life, I have admired of yours. And
Speaker 1: I started to wonder, you know, is trusting the knowing
Speaker 1: to finding the voice which came with philanthropy. As you
Speaker 1: talk about what found you, I wonder if that's our
Speaker 1: gendered knowing that we deserve truly equal footing both in
Speaker 1: our home and out in the world, because we have
Speaker 1: all of these ambitions and all of these things even
Speaker 1: before we become parents. And then you become a parent
Speaker 1: and you look at a little girl, and how could
Speaker 1: you not want her to have everything, everything that was
Speaker 1: denied to you, and everything that was given to you,
Speaker 1: everything you know was denied to our grandmothers. You know,
Speaker 1: you want these little girls to have everything and more.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I just couldn't help but see
Speaker 1: all this extra stuff in what you're talking about, even
Speaker 1: as you so beautifully shared about what a life altering moment,
Speaker 1: this pregnancy and her birth and this whole journey was for.
Speaker 2: You, definitely. And I think you know so often as women,
Speaker 2: like as I say to all three of my now
Speaker 2: adult children, I have a daughter, a son, and a
Speaker 2: daughter in that order, you are enough. You're enough on
Speaker 2: the day you're born. You're enough. And yet I think
Speaker 2: as we go out into society, especially as women, we're told, well,
Speaker 2: that position's not for you, or maybe you're not quite
Speaker 2: ready for that promotion, or you don't see somebody. Maybe
Speaker 2: if you aspire, let's say, to be a governor of
Speaker 2: a state, you don't see very many others of them, right,
Speaker 2: and you so you wonder, what could I if that's
Speaker 2: my aspiration, could I get there? Or if you a
Speaker 2: young girl wants to be president, she's never seen a
Speaker 2: female president in the United States ever, And so I
Speaker 2: think we get all these messages from society maybe somehow
Speaker 2: you're not quite enough to get that role or that position,
Speaker 2: or do that thing or start that business. And that
Speaker 2: has that really has animated my life, and that I
Speaker 2: think is what I learned through philanthropy as I started
Speaker 2: to go out and be out in these low income
Speaker 2: countries and realize because it's so obvious there the start
Speaker 2: contrast between men and women and what women are literally
Speaker 2: not allowed to do what men can do. And so
Speaker 2: I kept thinking, oh, if we can as a philanthropy community,
Speaker 2: make the world more equal for them. But it wasn't
Speaker 2: until I turned the question back on myself and said, well,
Speaker 2: how far are we really here in our country? And
Speaker 2: I wanted to say, oh, my god, there's so much
Speaker 2: more work to be done in the United States, which
Speaker 2: is the highest income country in the world. And yet yes,
Speaker 2: we are enough on the day we are born. And
Speaker 2: yet women and men don't have equality in our own country,
Speaker 2: and that to me just it shouldn't be. And that
Speaker 2: calling of meeting other women who were asking me for
Speaker 2: things as they just knew I was a US citizen
Speaker 2: coming to listen you know in some way that philanthropy
Speaker 2: might help. That calling from those women really started to
Speaker 2: animate my life, both in terms of my foundation work,
Speaker 2: but also the work I wanted to do here in
Speaker 2: the United States.
Speaker 1: Yes, and now a word from our sponsors who make
Speaker 1: this show possible. It's interesting you talk about that eventual
Speaker 1: moment of having to look back at where you live.
Speaker 1: I feel like I've I've had so many of the
Speaker 1: in my own way, which is not nearly as large
Speaker 1: and global as yours, But in using this career and
Speaker 1: platform as I can so many of the same journeys,
Speaker 1: traveling all around the world, wanting to fix what appear
Speaker 1: to be the greatest disparities, and then realizing how great
Speaker 1: the disparities are in our own backyard, and how they're
Speaker 1: just a little bit better masked, but they're everywhere. And
Speaker 1: when you realize that it's just the United States and
Speaker 1: Papa New Guinea that don't have any guaranteed paid leave,
Speaker 1: and you start to realize, well, that's part of the
Speaker 1: reason the women don't become the CEO or the president,
Speaker 1: because we're told if we do start a family, it'll
Speaker 1: take us out of work. But it shouldn't. Men and
Speaker 1: women both deserve the opportunity to be at home with
Speaker 1: their new, expanding families and then to return to the workplace,
Speaker 1: and other countries and other systems have designed for that,
Speaker 1: and we simply haven't invested in certainly in women, but
Speaker 1: we actually haven't invested in families well at all. And
Speaker 1: so when did that light bulb occur for you? You know,
Speaker 1: when eventually you decided to start the foundation. You had
Speaker 1: these young kids, and it came quicker than you wanted
Speaker 1: it to, which I love that you talk about in
Speaker 1: the book being like, I don't mean to be ungrateful,
Speaker 1: but does this have to happen now? Because I think,
Speaker 1: no matter what, we worry that we're we're doing the
Speaker 1: wrong thing. We always want to do all the things,
Speaker 1: but you can only, you know, spend so many plates
Speaker 1: at once. When did the paid leave issue really strike
Speaker 1: you as, oh, this has to be one of the
Speaker 1: drums we beat consistently and talk about everywhere we go.
Speaker 2: Well, as I was traveling on behalf of the foundation,
Speaker 2: I would also go to many other high income countries
Speaker 2: because we were trying to get their governments to you know,
Speaker 2: some of the work that we were doing as a foundation.
Speaker 2: It's really up to governments to scale it up. And
Speaker 2: so as I would be out in the UK, or
Speaker 2: in France or in Germany, and women would talk about
Speaker 2: their work and their child rearing, and I was seeing
Speaker 2: how they would talk about gender. But then when I
Speaker 2: would also go to the Nordic countries, to Norway and Sweden,
Speaker 2: and I started talking to men and they're like, we
Speaker 2: can't believe you all don't have paid family medical leave.
Speaker 2: And I would interview them and I'd say, well, well, okay,
Speaker 2: do you take time off? And they're like, well, of
Speaker 2: course we take time off. Why wouldn't we want to
Speaker 2: be with our new child, our son, or our daughter.
Speaker 2: And it had and as I started to study and
Speaker 2: learn and realize, Okay, what are the two the two
Speaker 2: biggest barriers that hold women back. It's harassment and abuse
Speaker 2: on a continuum and paid family medical leave. And when
Speaker 2: you look when you talk to people in Sweden and
Speaker 2: Norway and you realize they've had their policy for so long,
Speaker 2: it's a given that it changed the norm in society,
Speaker 2: Like norms are hard to change. But men literally say no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I'm not taking it because I don't want to leave
Speaker 2: money on the table, Like that might have been why
Speaker 2: men's first started to take it, but now it's because
Speaker 2: I want to be part of the child rearing.
Speaker 1: It just became the norm.
Speaker 2: And so that's when I started to realize, wow, And
Speaker 2: that was somewhere around maybe twenty fourteen, that this needed
Speaker 2: to change. In the United States, this makes absolutely no sense.
Speaker 2: We have these gendered roles that we just expect somehow
Speaker 2: women will work and take care of the kids, right,
Speaker 2: and it doesn't work. I've talked to women all over
Speaker 2: the US, you know, in the South, in the North,
Speaker 2: in the East, and the West, and women will say, like,
Speaker 2: I don't know where to leave my child, like if
Speaker 2: I don't have a parent to leave them with, and
Speaker 2: I need to work, if it's a single mom, or
Speaker 2: when it comes down to my child is sick, Who's
Speaker 2: going to take them to the pediatrician? I'm the one
Speaker 2: that's expected to And yet there's a penalty at work
Speaker 2: for doing that. You just realize, we just we haven't
Speaker 2: advanced like some of these other societies have, particularly in
Speaker 2: the Nordic region, but all over the world that people
Speaker 2: are doing paid family medical.
Speaker 1: Leave, absolutely and what that does is it actually it's
Speaker 1: not just a disservice to these new families, it's a
Speaker 1: disservice to our society because you see, and I so
Speaker 1: appreciate that you talk about these truths so often when
Speaker 1: you're working around the world, because I think everybody needs
Speaker 1: to hear them, and they need to hear them regularly.
Speaker 1: To your point, so we can change habits or norms
Speaker 1: when women, but families are supported countries do better economically, right,
Speaker 1: they become not only do their GDPs increase, they become
Speaker 1: more technologically innovative. They become places where new ideas are
Speaker 1: born and where leaps in terms of human growth happen.
Speaker 1: And so really, when you invest in taking care of families,
Speaker 1: you build a better world. It's not just a moral issue,
Speaker 1: it's also a mathematical one. It's an economic one. And
Speaker 1: I think where the math and the morals meet should
Speaker 1: always be the zone we're aiming for.
Speaker 2: Right, definitely, and because we do have to realize that
Speaker 2: women are, by and large around the world, the center
Speaker 2: of the family, and if she does well, her children
Speaker 2: have a better chance and the family has a better
Speaker 2: chance of thriving. If she's not doing well, the converse
Speaker 2: is true, the children are less likely to thrive, right.
Speaker 2: And so that's why I always say we need to
Speaker 2: lift women up, just remove the barriers that hold them
Speaker 2: down and do what we can to lift them up,
Speaker 2: because they lift up everybody else. And you're absolutely right,
Speaker 2: and it comes down to economics. It has a ripple
Speaker 2: effect throughout society.
Speaker 1: Absolutely and has has learning so much of this because
Speaker 1: I'll tell you anytime I get a nugget of information
Speaker 1: like that, you know, there's some white paper or some
Speaker 1: great new piece of research from a Nordic country, as
Speaker 1: you say, comes out. It makes me feel so gleeful
Speaker 1: because because it reinforces the knowing, the knowing that we deserve,
Speaker 1: the support can now also be proven. And I guess
Speaker 1: I wonder, as someone who holds such great knowing, does
Speaker 1: that kind of make you reflect on where some of
Speaker 1: that expectation around women and even personally for you, that
Speaker 1: guilt spiral that you talked about in trying to balance
Speaker 1: launching the foundation and having three young kids, how that
Speaker 1: spiral kind of you know, becomes like a ninja star
Speaker 1: if you will, Because every woman I know who has
Speaker 1: a family, or runs a company, or has a busy
Speaker 1: life or is working two jobs, you know, any fill
Speaker 1: in the blank feels like no matter what choice they're making,
Speaker 1: it might be the wrong one. And you said something
Speaker 1: in your book about this guilt spiral that is so
Speaker 1: common for us. I wrote it in all caps in
Speaker 1: my notebook that guilt is an indulgence and that realizing
Speaker 1: that changed everything for you because it made you realize
Speaker 1: guilt is focused on me, on us and you're trying
Speaker 1: to focus out around you. I would imagine it feels doubly, triply,
Speaker 1: quadruply true with all this data. But when you look
Speaker 1: back at when you realize that that aha moment, can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about that, where it came
Speaker 1: from and how it had a ripple effect for you
Speaker 1: personally in your life.
Speaker 2: Sure. I finally, when my kids were about middle school age,
Speaker 2: learned this concept that had been come forward by a
Speaker 2: psychologist in the UK about good enough parenting and the
Speaker 2: concept of good enough parenting. They've gone out and collected
Speaker 2: a lot of data over time that one good enough
Speaker 2: parents and kids thrive. They just need one good enough adult.
Speaker 2: And sometimes it's not even the parents. Let's say both
Speaker 2: parents are struggling with something right and balancing a lot.
Speaker 2: If they can have a coach who believes in them,
Speaker 2: they can have a teacher who believes in them, but
Speaker 2: that consistent nurturing of the child, then the child has
Speaker 2: the ability to thrive. And once I could ask myself,
Speaker 2: I was so caught up in this indulgence, as you say,
Speaker 2: of the perfect parent. Whatever the notion of the perfect
Speaker 2: parent is, it was some form. I think of my
Speaker 2: mom who didn't work when I was younger. She worked
Speaker 2: more when I was older. But you know, the be
Speaker 2: there all the time. You know that that notion just
Speaker 2: isn't isn't right, Like there is no such thing. There's
Speaker 2: all kinds of parenting in the world, right, and kids
Speaker 2: thrive in different ways. And so it was more saying
Speaker 2: to myself, you know, going to my journal and saying, hmm,
Speaker 2: am I a good enough parent? Am I good enough?
Speaker 2: And I could start to answer the question. I wrote
Speaker 2: down a few things I was doing, like, by gosh,
Speaker 2: I am a good enough parent, So guess what my
Speaker 2: kids are going to thrive? And so I could let
Speaker 2: down the pressure on myself of perfectionism and on them.
Speaker 2: It just kind of took the whole pressure level down
Speaker 2: in the household and I could be like, yeah, they're
Speaker 2: gonna turn out okay, Like I'm everything right, you know,
Speaker 2: And but that's okay too. My mom didn't get everything
Speaker 2: right right, but she got enough of it right that
Speaker 2: you know, we for thrived as children.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And to your point, what a great thing to
Speaker 1: teach your children that they have a village, that their
Speaker 1: coach is someone they can look up to, that their
Speaker 1: auntie is someone they can always call with a problem
Speaker 1: that their mentor at their internship or their summer job
Speaker 1: is worth listening to. What it strikes me as is
Speaker 1: a wonderful way to build an emotionally intelligent, communicative, and
Speaker 1: resilient child.
Speaker 2: Definitely, And I think you can also teach them. What
Speaker 2: I learned later was also when they were more in
Speaker 2: the high school ages, could you're also teaching them rupture
Speaker 2: and repair? Like maybe you had intended to get to
Speaker 2: that activity after school, you know, and they're on the field,
Speaker 2: but oops, you got stuck in traffic, or you got
Speaker 2: stuck on a phone call and you arrived late and
Speaker 2: you missed the goal, or you missed the thing that
Speaker 2: they were you know, there to do, okay, or maybe
Speaker 2: there's a day. I certainly had days where I lost
Speaker 2: my temper and I I hadn't sure, but going back
Speaker 2: and apologizing, like taking responsibility and then changing your actions
Speaker 2: in the future, you can teach your kids rupture and repair.
Speaker 2: Yes I ruptured, I raised my voice at you because
Speaker 2: I was stressed about something else, but that's no excuse,
Speaker 2: Like I take responsibility, and so what it teaches them
Speaker 2: because the truth is in any healthy relationship a friendship,
Speaker 2: an intimate partner relationship, a work colleague. There will be
Speaker 2: rupture and repair, but it's really how you do the repair.
Speaker 2: And that was another concept. I was like, Oh, it's okay,
Speaker 2: Like it's okay, and I'll teach them something just by
Speaker 2: being me and being real about the relationship and my
Speaker 2: faults and my mistakes exactly.
Speaker 1: And I think it's such a healthier modality and maybe
Speaker 1: strikes me, as you know, such a person point of excitement,
Speaker 1: because I too, am a recovering perfectionist. And the thing
Speaker 1: that undid it for me, you know, in the way
Speaker 1: that you talk about this idea that guilt is an
Speaker 1: indulgence being so revelatory. The thing that was the big
Speaker 1: sort of thought bomb for me was when a friend said,
Speaker 1: don't you understand how toxic perfectionism is. Perfect doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: So if you've been raised or cultured to be a perfectionist,
Speaker 1: you've actually been raised to believe you're a failure. And
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, this thing rather than
Speaker 1: just being a human who does great on some days
Speaker 1: and not so great on others, and who tries to
Speaker 1: be a good sum total of their parts, this idea
Speaker 1: that if you're not perfect, you're failing. Really just sets
Speaker 1: us up for failure. So what a gorgeous, more just
Speaker 1: more human way to live. To be a real person
Speaker 1: trying their best.
Speaker 2: That's right, a real person in the world. And you're
Speaker 2: gonna stumble and fall some days, you're gonna be tired,
Speaker 2: you might be a little grouchy, but you know, on
Speaker 2: the next day you get up, you might be kind
Speaker 2: of another version of your best self. And it's okay
Speaker 2: because it also gives other people permission to be their
Speaker 2: full self. Like as I've said to my kids many times,
Speaker 2: my mother said it to me, which is all emotions
Speaker 2: are okay, all of them, mear anger, you know, even
Speaker 2: all the ones you would think of as negative emotions
Speaker 2: and all the positive emotions. All emotions are okay. It's
Speaker 2: what you do with them, and so you know, and
Speaker 2: it's also that okay. So maybe you were in anxious
Speaker 2: one day and so you weren't your nicest self. Again,
Speaker 2: you can go back and repair with that person or
Speaker 2: just say I'm so sorry I was having a bad day,
Speaker 2: and it gives them permission later to have a bad day, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to not have it feel so f Yeah,
Speaker 1: nothing has to be such a catastrophe. Even your worst
Speaker 1: day is something that you know, a year from now
Speaker 1: you're going to reflect on and realize it taught you
Speaker 1: something and it's just kind of a blip on the radar.
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's that that resiliency. And on
Speaker 1: the subject of resilience, and let me preface the question
Speaker 1: by saying, listen, if anybody yets not wanting, you know,
Speaker 1: a divorce or a man to be your identity as
Speaker 1: an individual or a woman, it is me. I guess
Speaker 1: I'm curious because you've You've spoken about this, I think,
Speaker 1: really eloquently and beautifully for someone who I'm sure has
Speaker 1: been bombarded with less than eloquent and beautiful questions on
Speaker 1: the subject of that sort of rip and then a
Speaker 1: personal repair, if you will. What has struck me? Having
Speaker 1: gone through it a little more recently than you, and
Speaker 1: I've decided to look up all the women I admire
Speaker 1: been through it and say, like, what have you said
Speaker 1: that will give me some guidance here that I can
Speaker 1: read it to in the morning. You've spoken really beautifully
Speaker 1: about how you wanted to thoughtfully reflect on this. Because
Speaker 1: you are a public figure, there's just no way not to.
Speaker 1: I feel that. For me, what it came down to was, oh,
Speaker 1: I have to admit I think I've made a mistake.
Speaker 1: There are certain things I don't want a model for
Speaker 1: the children. I know I want to be a mother too,
Speaker 1: And I know that can be a very shattering experience
Speaker 1: for women who go through it in the same kind
Speaker 1: of time period that I did. And I really I
Speaker 1: thought so much about your story and about other women
Speaker 1: I know who have experienced that kind of shift or
Speaker 1: transition in that later stage, you know. And for you,
Speaker 1: you were married for twenty seven years, you did raise
Speaker 1: all these babies together. Obviously, you did some gorgeous things together.
Speaker 1: You launched one of the world's most beautiful and accomplished
Speaker 1: philanthropic foundations that you ran, and you advocated as this
Speaker 1: sort of superwoman in my eyes, and all my friends
Speaker 1: who you know, when we got started, were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll go to that conference, Yeah we'll get on that plane.
Speaker 1: Sure we'll show up at this place. Yeah you want
Speaker 1: to go bug everybody in Congress. Let's go, let's stage
Speaker 1: a protest in Washington. Like we didn't know what we
Speaker 1: were doing, but we looked at people like you and said, well, look,
Speaker 1: it's possible. And I guess I just wonder and it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a long answer. I realize I've
Speaker 1: been rambling about this for a long time because I've
Speaker 1: thought a lot about it, clearly, but for you knowing
Speaker 1: that your story and your example can actually be a
Speaker 1: gift in terms of resiliency. And I don't mean about
Speaker 1: even the kids, or your ex or anyone, but you,
Speaker 1: the woman Melinda, who if you'd gone through this privately
Speaker 1: in another life, you wouldn't have to talk about it
Speaker 1: out in the world. Is there like, is there a
Speaker 1: nugget of wisdom or an aha moment you had that
Speaker 1: made you know that even though the world would be watching,
Speaker 1: which is why so many people stay, that made you
Speaker 1: know that you deserved to choose yourself, that you deserved
Speaker 1: to carve a new path, that you deserved, especially as
Speaker 1: the mother of girls, to say I want something different, deeper,
Speaker 1: better for this next phase in my life. Because I
Speaker 1: know there's a lot of women that would give anything
Speaker 1: for that knowing to come to them when they're in
Speaker 1: the moment of do I stay or do I go?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And one thing I would say to anybody going
Speaker 2: through this look, it's just painful, and the knowing comes,
Speaker 2: and you might push it way for a while, like
Speaker 2: so I will tell you the knowing came that I'm like, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I can't make this work. Knowing came, No, I can
Speaker 2: make this work. Knowing came make So that is, at
Speaker 2: least for me, that was a normal part of the process.
Speaker 2: But at least for me in the end, I had
Speaker 2: to look. You know, when you point your finger at
Speaker 2: somebody else, they say you have to look at the
Speaker 2: three fingers pointing back at yourself, right, yes, you know, yes,
Speaker 2: And I realized there had been some problems it. But ultimately,
Speaker 2: if I was pointing the finger at that person saying
Speaker 2: you betrayed me, I had to look at my three
Speaker 2: fingers pointing back at myself and saying, I'm betraying myself
Speaker 2: and who I am. If I stay I have certain
Speaker 2: values and if I cannot live those values out in
Speaker 2: this relationship of who I am and what I believe,
Speaker 2: that I'm betraying myself. And I thought, how horrible is that?
Speaker 2: Do I want to betray myself?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: No, And so that helped me have the courage to
Speaker 2: eventually do what I did. And the other thing I
Speaker 2: say to people who you know. Some people will come
Speaker 2: and talk to me, who are you know contemplating at
Speaker 2: a divorce, And I'll say, look, it is not easy,
Speaker 2: and you know, I wouldn't wish it on any family,
Speaker 2: but I will tell you when it's over, and you know,
Speaker 2: you go through a period of healing. You don't know
Speaker 2: what it is. I don't know what it is, but
Speaker 2: something beautiful will grow on the other side. So by
Speaker 2: letting go of something, you may not know what you're
Speaker 2: going to and you may not even know it for
Speaker 2: a few years, but something beautiful will come on the
Speaker 2: other side, and you will know yourself even better and
Speaker 2: you'll be more resilient for whatever the next big change
Speaker 2: in life is that comes. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think if you can get over the fear
Speaker 1: of the unknown, you can actually wind up discovering the
Speaker 1: joy of the unexpected. That's on the other side of it.
Speaker 2: Definitely, most definitely, And you just have to have the
Speaker 2: courage to say, uh, I may not know what's coming next,
Speaker 2: but okay, out there somewhere is something. And then but
Speaker 2: you learn from that courage. It's just like when we
Speaker 2: teach our kids. Let's say they have to step into
Speaker 2: a new friendship or a new classroom or a new situation.
Speaker 2: Where is their self esteem built and where's the resilience built?
Speaker 2: By actually taking that step, that's how they come to
Speaker 2: know what they're capable of and what's inside of them.
Speaker 2: And so it's the same way for us as women
Speaker 2: or men, no matter what age we are, we still
Speaker 2: have to have the courage to take that heart or
Speaker 2: that uncomfortable step, no matter what.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just think it's really beautiful. Thank you, And
Speaker 1: now a word from our sponsors. Did you have certain
Speaker 1: self care practices because you knew the world would be
Speaker 1: paying attention? Like did you just delete everything off your phone?
Speaker 1: Did you just lock your phone in a safe? Like
Speaker 1: I had a couple of days where I was like
Speaker 1: I need to leave the house and I need to
Speaker 1: leave any electronic tether here and I need to just
Speaker 1: be outside, you know. And then the next day I
Speaker 1: was like, maybe I need to just power the thing off,
Speaker 1: but have the music because the music helps on the walk.
Speaker 1: Like I really was, it was sort of like doing
Speaker 1: a paint by numbers when the numbers have been erased.
Speaker 1: What were your sort of tools for your own self care?
Speaker 2: I had developed a lot of tools for self care
Speaker 2: in that in between space, you know, where once you
Speaker 2: have made the decision that you need to leave, but
Speaker 2: then there's you know, a time before it can be
Speaker 2: actually happen and be executed right.
Speaker 1: I'd imagine, also, especially at the echelon of Life Global Foundation,
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine the complexity. The paperwork nearly killed me.
Speaker 2: I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't fathom it for you. So just hats off
Speaker 1: that you've made it to the other side, and you
Speaker 1: haven't you're not in the corner like eating your own hair.
Speaker 2: I'm amazed. There are a few days I could have
Speaker 2: done that, but I was lucky enough to be surrounded
Speaker 2: by an amazing tiny team of people helping me write.
Speaker 2: But I had to learn self care during that in
Speaker 2: between time where I didn't know when the divorce would
Speaker 2: get announced, how it would all get split up, what
Speaker 2: was to come. That's when I developed all my self
Speaker 2: care techniques. And that was included, you know, walking with
Speaker 2: a friend at a moment's notice, walking with a friends,
Speaker 2: some friends on a routine basis. I talk about therapy
Speaker 2: in the book, which I never expected to write about,
Speaker 2: and I was a skeptical of therapy, but talking to
Speaker 2: my therapist. Sometimes I just needed to reach out to
Speaker 2: friends who had no idea that I was separated, just
Speaker 2: to go have some fun. Or other times I was
Speaker 2: saying to somebody, this morning, I would just listen to
Speaker 2: a book, a piece of fiction, and that would just
Speaker 2: take me away. But a lot being out in nature
Speaker 2: helped kind of just get me away from a very
Speaker 2: tense situation. So I had all those self care tools.
Speaker 2: Then when it went public, and so to be honest,
Speaker 2: I had already gone through the hardest part behind the scenes,
Speaker 2: and so then it was just kind of like, Okay,
Speaker 2: finally it's out there, right, Yeah, And I didn't go
Speaker 2: look at my phone. My youngest daughter would show me
Speaker 2: a few things and I'd be like, okay, that's enough.
Speaker 2: You know. I go outside and you know, sit by
Speaker 2: the lake, listen to some birds. I like to swing.
Speaker 2: We had a swing set in our yard back then,
Speaker 2: so I go swing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is interesting, the little things, you know, as
Speaker 1: time would have it. My my best friend in the world.
Speaker 1: Who is I mean, she's my everything, She's my business partner,
Speaker 1: you know, my my sister. For all intents and purposes.
Speaker 1: We went through this at exactly the same time, in
Speaker 1: exactly the same summer. It was, you know, a wild time,
Speaker 1: and out of the woodwork came so many other friends.
Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, best friend from college, one of my dearest
Speaker 1: friends from my activist space, one of my friends, you know,
Speaker 1: dealing with a spouse with addiction. Like, we had this
Speaker 1: sort of cocoon of women. And I remember on the
Speaker 1: day that I knew my news would go public and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh God, my best friend FaceTime from Detroit,
Speaker 1: one of my other friends came over and we walked
Speaker 1: around the house. We saged my whole house together. Knowing
Speaker 1: we were on a countdown, I was like, Okay, six
Speaker 1: more minutes. And we did this whole little ceremony together.
Speaker 1: And then we had a girlfriend who was refreshing the internet,
Speaker 1: and the minute it hit she was like, it's up.
Speaker 1: We popped a bottle of champagne because they were like,
Speaker 1: we're just going to reframe this for you. This doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be a sad thing. We're so proud out
Speaker 1: of you. And after that, I turned my phone on
Speaker 1: airplane mode and I literally put it away for three days.
Speaker 1: It was a Friday. I was like I'll turn it
Speaker 1: back on on Monday.
Speaker 2: Perfect.
Speaker 1: Anybody who really needs to talk to me, you can
Speaker 1: call my landline from nineteen ninety six and that'll be that.
Speaker 1: And it was this sort of gorgeous thing, and it
Speaker 1: was to your point. The community of women, that village,
Speaker 1: that sisterhood. They helped me take something that in the
Speaker 1: in between had been so difficult and painful and scary,
Speaker 1: and they turned it into a moment where I got
Speaker 1: to celebrate my own courage. And it was so simple
Speaker 1: and so sweet. And that is the thing I come
Speaker 1: back to again and again for people like yourself or
Speaker 1: myself who can't go through private things privately. And I
Speaker 1: just think, well, if we can set that little example,
Speaker 1: if we can encourage another group of friends to pop
Speaker 1: a bottle of champagne for somebody I'm in.
Speaker 2: And I think you said one other important thing, which
Speaker 2: is to name internally what we are good at. And
Speaker 2: I think sometimes we don't see it, like maybe you
Speaker 2: didn't see the courage, but your friends saw the courage.
Speaker 2: And so for your friends to name that attribute in
Speaker 2: you and celebrate that attribute, I think as women, that's
Speaker 2: another really healthy thing that we can.
Speaker 1: Get I do too, I really do too, and it's
Speaker 1: it is the sort of thing that builds resiliency so
Speaker 1: that you can have touch points where you really connect
Speaker 1: to yourself in moments of joy or sorrow. You know,
Speaker 1: you you talk in the third chapter of your book
Speaker 1: about such a heavy experience that sadly, I think when
Speaker 1: you get to a certain age we can all expect.
Speaker 1: And you lost a dear friend.
Speaker 2: I mean who was young, you.
Speaker 1: Know, thirty seven or thirty eight, I believe you said,
Speaker 1: your friend John. And going through cancer and going through
Speaker 1: loss with someone very surreal thing when a friend your
Speaker 1: age passes away and you write about how you learned
Speaker 1: to grieve and how you were grieving in community and
Speaker 1: in friendship with you know, his wife, and it's so devastating,
Speaker 1: but it's so uplifting at the same time. You know,
Speaker 1: as a reader who's now been through this sort of
Speaker 1: shock in my own life, I just thought, Wow, this
Speaker 1: is such a beautiful handbook in a way for how
Speaker 1: to experience something like this and come out of it
Speaker 1: both having held your own grief authentically, not you know,
Speaker 1: turning your back on yourself or your experience, and realizing
Speaker 1: how you can still claim the joy of what it
Speaker 1: was out of it is the lesson that you had
Speaker 1: at that time. Now, in hindsight, do you think that
Speaker 1: John has kind of continued to be a teacher for
Speaker 1: you in your life?
Speaker 2: For sure, both in how he lived his life. You know,
Speaker 2: we were in a very rough and tumble tech industry,
Speaker 2: in a pretty rough and tumble culture at Microsoft, right,
Speaker 2: a lot of sharp elbows creating amazing things, and we were, Uh.
Speaker 2: It was energetic and fun in a certain way, but
Speaker 2: it was tough. And so to see him live his
Speaker 2: life as himself, I mean, there wasn't a person that
Speaker 2: you'd go around and you just knew who the good
Speaker 2: people were in the company, and he was one of them.
Speaker 2: He was celebrated for that and was himself. And so
Speaker 2: by getting to write about him in this book, I
Speaker 2: think I've gotten to keep alive a bit who he was.
Speaker 2: And one of his three he left, as I say
Speaker 2: in the book, three very young children behind, who who
Speaker 2: I still know. And one of his daughters came to
Speaker 2: one of my book events and I talked to her
Speaker 2: for a while afterwards, and she said, you know, Melinda,
Speaker 2: this has been so helpful. It's been cathartic for me.
Speaker 2: To see how you saw my dad. Because I didn't
Speaker 2: get to know him I was little. I read about him.
Speaker 2: You know, my mom's told me stories my aunts and uncles,
Speaker 2: but she said, to hear how he was as a
Speaker 2: friend and then be able to share that with my friends,
Speaker 2: she said, or my therapist, or my community. They get
Speaker 2: to see my father in a different way than even
Speaker 2: as I've described him. And so that's been a gift
Speaker 2: that I think still comes like he he comes through
Speaker 2: those stories. But as I talk about in the book,
Speaker 2: what I learned was these concentric circles around the person
Speaker 2: who's in the center, who is going through let's say,
Speaker 2: a tough illness or potentially a death. You have to
Speaker 2: really understand which ring you are on relative to that person.
Speaker 2: Are you in that innermost ring, are you family? Are
Speaker 2: you in the next ring of friendship? Are you two
Speaker 2: or three rings or four rings out? And what you
Speaker 2: do is you always provide comfort towards the center of
Speaker 2: those rings, everybody who's the closest and that person, and
Speaker 2: you dump your grief to people who are on the
Speaker 2: outside of those rings further out right wow, so that
Speaker 2: you don't take your issues. And because of course I
Speaker 2: was grieving as I knew we were going to lose him.
Speaker 2: But I'm not going to take that to him or
Speaker 2: to his wife, Emmy. Right, that's completely putting my issue
Speaker 2: on them. I just want to be support to them.
Speaker 2: But I could grieve to my other friends who knew
Speaker 2: him but weren't as close to him. Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something you can model reading about it. It's
Speaker 1: a lesson you can take with you, and I think
Speaker 1: that that is one of the marks of a beautiful book.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, I want
Speaker 1: to pivot, which is a word I know you love
Speaker 1: because I did this with Michelle Obama and you guys
Speaker 1: have really amazing like mentor but also wonderful, approachable woman energy,
Speaker 1: and I loved reading about her in your book. And
Speaker 1: I want to just ask you like a quick fun
Speaker 1: round of questions and then I'll ask you my last
Speaker 1: and most excited or most most precious. But when you
Speaker 1: talk about your friends, who like, who's your girl crew,
Speaker 1: who do you call, who are your people, who do
Speaker 1: you go on walks with? What does that world look
Speaker 1: like for you in your village?
Speaker 2: Well, I talk about these three women that I call
Speaker 2: my truth counsel. One of them is Charlotte Geimon. I
Speaker 2: met her within the first three weeks of starting at Microsoft.
Speaker 2: Another one is Emmy Nielson, who's the white was the
Speaker 2: wife of the friend John who I met at Microsoft
Speaker 2: who passed away. And another one is Killian No And
Speaker 2: she moved move to Seattle when her husband took a
Speaker 2: job in Seattle, and she literally left an entire organization
Speaker 2: that she started in Washington, d C. And restarted here
Speaker 2: in Seattle. And so they are my Monday morning walking group.
Speaker 2: We text many, many, many times a week. I still
Speaker 2: am very very close to my high school friend Mary Lehman.
Speaker 2: We met on the first day of high school, literally
Speaker 2: the first day. And she's somebody that you know, I've
Speaker 2: reached out to in an emergency when I need something,
Speaker 2: or she's reached out when I'm really joyful or vice versa.
Speaker 2: She'll actually see my parents this weekend moraal day weekend
Speaker 2: when she's down near where they live as she goes
Speaker 2: to her nephew's graduation. So, yeah, those are some of
Speaker 2: my community. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1: About my high school girl text thread and you know,
Speaker 1: my best girlfriends like Nia, who I was telling you
Speaker 1: about it is these little crews of women I think
Speaker 1: really become some of our built box of self when
Speaker 1: you're not walking with them, when you're maybe going out
Speaker 1: for like a nice a nice girls dinner. What's your
Speaker 1: drink of choice?
Speaker 2: Oh gosh it. For years it was a lemon drop,
Speaker 2: and now I would say it's a Manhattan. Pretty much
Speaker 2: wherever I go, I order Manhattan.
Speaker 1: Very chic. I went through an old fashioned phase and
Speaker 1: I loved when I'd order that at a bar and
Speaker 1: a bartender would kind of raise his eyebrows at me,
Speaker 1: and I'd be like, Yeah, I've really done it. Look
Speaker 1: at me. What do you think is your dream meal?
Speaker 2: Oh? My dream meal is Mexican food. I grew up
Speaker 2: in Dallas, and anything with guacamolean chips, be it a taco,
Speaker 2: be it enchiladas. Just sign me up.
Speaker 1: I have a literal little parking lot hut taco place
Speaker 1: in La. Next time you're on the West Coast, I'm going.
Speaker 2: To take you. Okay, great, What is a place that
Speaker 2: you would.
Speaker 1: Love to visit if you could visit completely anonymously, just
Speaker 1: to wander around for a day.
Speaker 2: Oh well, first of all, I can still go many
Speaker 2: places anonymously. It's wonderful. Yes, it's wonderful.
Speaker 1: That shocks me.
Speaker 2: And oh gosh, Sydney, Australia, it's just it's a city
Speaker 2: I love to walk in. I love the nature there,
Speaker 2: I love the architecture. I like the people and the beaches.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so cool.
Speaker 2: Oh I just love that.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I have another pivot for you, And this
Speaker 1: is a question about finance. What you're doing at Pivotal Ventures.
Speaker 1: The way that you are upending some of the venture
Speaker 1: capital world and investing in women really inspires me. Nia
Speaker 1: and I have been on a very similar journey, you know,
Speaker 1: doing a lot of philanthropic work together and petitioning for
Speaker 1: a lot of corporate social responsibility checks. We eventually came
Speaker 1: to a realization and in the words of you know,
Speaker 1: the late great Desmond too too, you can only pull
Speaker 1: people out of the river for long enough before you
Speaker 1: walk upstream and figure out who's pushing them in. And
Speaker 1: the push seems to come from inequity in the world, right,
Speaker 1: And if you want to change equality, you have to
Speaker 1: change the way money moves. Yes, and so we also
Speaker 1: work in venture now and you are a north star
Speaker 1: for us. The way that you work and what you
Speaker 1: all do. And I guess I just wonder for any
Speaker 1: young women who want to get into investing, or who
Speaker 1: maybe are early in their careers in finance, what have
Speaker 1: you learned since you shifted your sole focus from being
Speaker 1: philanthropic into encompassing finance, And what advice would you give
Speaker 1: to women who really want to do well and do good.
Speaker 2: What I say to women who choose to do investing
Speaker 2: is invest in the things that are closest to you
Speaker 2: and that are proximal and that you feel like you
Speaker 2: can get your hands around and know. So one of
Speaker 2: the things as I do and I believe you do,
Speaker 2: is I invest in, for instance, limited partners who invest
Speaker 2: in more women led companies. Why do I do that?
Speaker 2: Because so often women's businesses don't get capitalized, and yet
Speaker 2: they have an incredible lens, not a better lens, not
Speaker 2: a worse lens than men, just a different lens on society.
Speaker 2: And so some of the limited partners that I've invested
Speaker 2: in who've invested in others, are you know some of
Speaker 2: the businesses are turn out to be around women's healthcare,
Speaker 2: like statewide in a whole state, holistic health for women,
Speaker 2: or have to do with mental health, for people in
Speaker 2: the postpartum phase, or maybe young people teens going through
Speaker 2: mental health crisis or eating disorders. Like, it's just they
Speaker 2: have a different lens even on caregiving, because more of
Speaker 2: them have now caregived for not just kids, but elderly parents.
Speaker 2: So I just say, you know, invest in people who
Speaker 2: are going to and everybody else and who have a
Speaker 2: different lens.
Speaker 1: Yes, And you're what I'm hearing you say goes back
Speaker 1: to that point about the math and the morals, because
Speaker 1: they meet. Because if you are not investing in fifty
Speaker 1: one percent of the economy, I always say you're missing
Speaker 1: out on fifty one percent of their returns, definitely, And
Speaker 1: so it feels really exciting to see people waking up
Speaker 1: to this and having this sort of aha moment out
Speaker 1: in that space.
Speaker 2: And I think it takes a bit of courage to
Speaker 2: invest in a different way. I mean, why do you
Speaker 2: see a lot of vcs investing in the same types
Speaker 2: of businesses. It's because it's what they know or they've
Speaker 2: gotten used to. But so we're using some courage to
Speaker 2: invest in things we haven't seen get capitalized before. But
Speaker 2: one thing I do know about finance is people don't
Speaker 2: like to leave money on the table. So when you're
Speaker 2: investment thesis is played out, give us you know takes
Speaker 2: eight ten years. Fine. I have a feeling you'll see
Speaker 2: a lot of other people crowding in because I agree,
Speaker 2: why did I leave? You know, why didn't I look
Speaker 2: at that sector?
Speaker 1: I agree. It's the same way I feel about what
Speaker 1: we do at our fund. We do a lot of
Speaker 1: work in Michigan because we're very passionate about the Midwest,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people don't get it, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: do you really want to miss it out? I don't
Speaker 1: think so, And so it feels exciting to remind people
Speaker 1: of that. And gosh, I just I think the whole
Speaker 1: lens of your world is exciting. All of it is motivating,
Speaker 1: I know for me and for so many you know
Speaker 1: of my friends who were all absolutely geeked that I
Speaker 1: was going to get to talk to you today. I'm
Speaker 1: going to ask you my favorite question to end an
Speaker 1: interview with, and someday I'll ask you the rest. When
Speaker 1: you look out at the rest of the year, your
Speaker 1: summer which is about to hit, thankfully, and the way
Speaker 1: that you think about these next chapters that are coming
Speaker 1: after having reflected on so many chapters in your life
Speaker 1: in your book so beautifully, when you look forward, what
Speaker 1: feels like your work in progress?
Speaker 2: My work in progress on myself or in my company.
Speaker 1: Either both, whatever strikes you.
Speaker 2: I think I'm always a work in progress. I hope
Speaker 2: I always am. But for me, I feel like I've
Speaker 2: learned to have courage and to trust other people a lot.
Speaker 2: So as my team brings forward ideas or as I
Speaker 2: see something new, I feel like I have much more
Speaker 2: the courage these days last ten years to go explore
Speaker 2: whole new areas. And so for me, that's just exciting.
Speaker 2: It goes back to that word discover. What else can
Speaker 2: I discover? You know? What else should we be funding
Speaker 2: that we're not seeing right now? What is somebody else
Speaker 2: seeing that I'm not seeing? So for me, it's all
Speaker 2: about finding partners who have good ideas and making sure
Speaker 2: we fund them, because to me, those are the force
Speaker 2: multipliers in life, and that just excites me. The sort
Speaker 2: of undiscovered yet both in work and in inside of
Speaker 2: myself of who I am. To me, that's always exciting.
Speaker 1: You're an explorer, yeah, I guess so. I love it.
Speaker 1: I love it being a modern day Explorer feels right.
Speaker 1: Thank you, yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for
Speaker 1: sharing you know, your thoughts reflections, not only in the
Speaker 1: book but on the show today. It's just been an
Speaker 1: absolute joy.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me and for
Speaker 2: all you're doing through your activism and you're investing. I
Speaker 2: just really admire it too, so back at you.
Speaker 1: You paved the way for us, so thank you so
Speaker 1: much for giving us an example. Many of us didn't
Speaker 1: grow up with it at home, so it really has
Speaker 1: been incredibly meaningful to you know, be out in the
Speaker 1: world and always get to see what you're up to.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Bye bye,