WEBVTT - Work in Progress: Melinda French Gates 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:15.240 Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:18.599 back to Work in Progress friends. This week we have 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:23.200 a guest that encompasses the idea of being a whip 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:27.920 smart woman in the world. Today, I am so geeked 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:29.840 to say this to you, guys, I'm actually kind of 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:33.720 losing my mind. Today we are joined by none other 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:39.280 than Melinda French Gates. She is a philanthropist, a businesswoman, 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.559 and a global advocate for women and girls, and on 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.960 a personal note, someone who has leveraged her platform for 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.680 such goodness in the world. I have looked up to 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.280 her for my entire adult life. For the last twenty 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.320 five years, Melinda has led efforts to unlock a healthier, 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:00.560 more prosperous, and more equal future. Did that at the 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.760 Gates Foundation, and today she hads Pivotal, an organization that 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.760 she formed in twenty fifteen that works to accelerate the 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.920 pace of progress and advance women's power and influence, both 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.080 here in the United States and all around the world. 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:17.560 And not only does she have one of the most 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:22.279 incredible professional resumes in the world, but Melinda has also 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:27.680 managed to be an incredibly heartfelt and vulnerable and thoughtful 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:31.640 leader for us. She is the author of the best 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.319 selling book The Moment of Lift, out of which she 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.160 actually created. Moment of Lift Books and Imprint, publishing original 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.800 nonfiction by visionaries that are working to unlock a more 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:46.480 equal world, and this year she is publishing her beautiful 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:52.400 memoir the next day. The book is about transitions, the 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:55.680 moments that we step out of our familiar surroundings and 0:01:55.760 --> 0:02:00.640 into new landscapes, the space where we're caught in grief 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:05.760 or change or success or any kind of transition really, 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.440 and she's chosen to open up and reflect about her 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:14.800 own life in ways that had me flipping every page 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:20.119 saying yes exactly. Her story is obviously her own, it's 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:25.800 incredibly unique, and yet everything she shares will also feel 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.200 so personal to you. I know because it felt so 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:34.360 personal to me. Because the stories that she's telling illuminate 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:40.560 universal lessons, whether they're about loosening the grip of perfectionism, 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:46.640 helping friends navigate crisis, embracing uncertainty, all of it. Each 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.200 and every one of us, no matter who we are 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.400 or where we are in life, can be sure that 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:56.880 we are headed for times of transition and with incredible 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:01.320 warmth and grace, she has given us this book in 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:03.240 a moment in time that I think we need some 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:08.079 inspiration and some heart medicine more than ever. I am 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.520 so absolutely honored to have her on the podcast today. 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:25.760 Let's dive in with Melinda. Melinda, thank you so much 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.480 for joining me today. It's such an honor to have 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:34.400 you on the show as an early activist and a 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.160 woman who's tried to use my relative platform to affect 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:40.480 some positive change in the world. I have looked up 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:44.839 to you for my entire adult career and yeah, I'm 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:47.240 just so touched by this and so excited. 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.680 Oh well, I'm really glad we could do this. 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:54.440 Me too, And congratulations on the book. It's just so beautiful. 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:55.400 Thank you. 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.360 Yeah, before we dive into that and where we find 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.760 you today, I'd love to go back in time. And 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:07.040 I know you've shared some really beautiful stories about your life, 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:11.440 your childhood. You know what an amazing role model your 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.320 mother was to you. But for some of our listeners 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.719 who maybe haven't read the book yet, can you take 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.400 us back to let's say nine or ten years old 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:25.479 and reflect a little bit with us on who you 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:27.599 were as a kid, what your childhood was like, what 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:28.840 you were really interested in. 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.440 So I grew up in Dallas, Texas, in a suburb 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:37.440 of Dallas, Texas, very close, tight knit community. We knew 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:39.680 most of our neighbors on our street and on the 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:44.640 street behind us. The moms kind of looked out for 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.040 each other's kids and kind of knew what was, you know, 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.760 going on, who was at whose house. And as a 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.240 nine or ten year old, one of my favorite things 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:54.760 was to ride my bike, being able to ride my 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.039 bike places, you know, every year I got a little 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:00.200 bit more freedom to ride further farther away from from 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.320 the house, and just to be able to ride to 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.640 the creek, or ride to the park, or eventually take 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.680 my allowance and ride to my favorite store. Just that 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:13.400 kind of sense of freedom and discovery. I've always loved summer. 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.520 I mean, I liked school, but I didn't really love 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:18.960 it until I got honestly to high school. So in 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:20.840 the summers of like when I was nine or ten, 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.120 I just couldn't wait for summer, you know, for school 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.919 to be over and then just to be outside a 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.880 lot playing. And I had a really good friend in 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:32.400 the neighborhood. My best friend lived across the alley and 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:39.880 down one house, and her mom was extraordinarily outdoors and athletic, 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.320 which was a bit different than sort of my mom. 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:45.919 And so the moms would often sign us up for 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:49.039 activities together. And so my best friend Ellen and I 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:51.000 used to go to the park and take swim lessons 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.560 or go play tennis or whatever our moms could dream 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.200 up as fun as far as fun summer camps for us. 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.479 Oh, that's so great. Do you think if you could 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.680 a little wrinkle in space time and hang out with 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.719 yourself for an afternoon? You know who you are today 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:08.560 with your nine year old self. Do you feel like 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.480 you would see the woman that you've become in her? 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.880 Do you see the same you know, kind of curiosity 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:19.680 about others and excitement for community in that little girl 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:20.440 when you look back. 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:25.400 I think my sense of loving to be outdoors and 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:30.400 loving to play and play in an athletic way, I 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.400 call it be in my body, I think. And then 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.039 this sense of discovery. In fact, my word of this 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.240 year that came kind of came to me before the 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.920 start of the year is discover. Like I love that 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:45.360 sense of discovery, and so I think I still have 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:49.520 a lot of those elements in me. I certainly would 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.880 never have dreamt that I would become the advocate that 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.680 I have become for women and girls around the world. 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.800 That I just never you just I couldn't imagine that 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.680 that sort of sense of wonder and discovery and play 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.240 and athletic play. I think that's just been there for 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:05.880 a long time. 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:11.880 I love that. I was someone asked me about activism 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:17.600 and particularly advocating for girls and girls' education around the world, 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:21.240 and I was sort of reflecting, trying to figure out 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.040 where the spark was lit, and I said, you know, 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.000 maybe it was college journalism and political science. And my 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:27.880 dad was the one who said, oh, give me a break. 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.160 You were organizing walkouts at school in the eighth grade. 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.320 You have always been like this, And I was like, oh, wow, 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.240 it's so neat when your parents can sort of help 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.560 you reflect on the things you're passionate about in your adulthood. 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.080 And so I love that. I bet if we got 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:46.440 to hang out with your nine year old self, there'd 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:47.800 be kernels in there for sure. 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:50.360 Yeah, I would hope. So I spent a lot of 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:54.440 time climbing trees, not being able to bring my tennis 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.000 shoes inside because they smelled so bad in the summer, 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.000 you know, because I was out there so much, just 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:03.040 slopping around. And it's funny because in Dallas there isn't 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:05.560 a lot of nature nearby, I mean the park and 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.520 the creek. But where I live in Seattle, we are 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.200 just surrounded now by nature. And so one of the 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.000 things I love to do in the summer with a 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.080 friend is to paddle board or kayak or go out 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:21.360 on our bikes. But yeah, and I think maybe friendship too. 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.040 I knew the importance of friendship when I was little. 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:26.160 I was lucky enough to have this friend across the 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.520 alley and then girlfriends in my class. But I think 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:31.559 hopefully some of those elements endure. 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.880 I love that, and I think those are the things 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.000 when you look back, you can you can kind of 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.439 view the chapters of your life or the moments that 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.839 helped you make a leap or evolve. And I think 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:50.040 that's why your book strikes me so beautifully. The next 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:56.440 day is all about transitions, and sometimes it's the thing 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.160 you're not sure you can do that you you know 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:01.920 you've got to break through your own glass ceiling to achieve, 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.320 or after a loss, you have to reflect on what's 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:09.840 most important to you. I'm curious as to how sitting 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:16.600 down to reflect on transition in every sort of version 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:19.080 it comes in, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly, 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:25.040 the beautiful. What you feel like you've learned about navigating 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.160 those those moments of time that are in the in 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:33.240 between when something is changing. You know, do you feel 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:36.199 like that that reflection made you ready to write the 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.880 book or or did writing the book help you leap 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:41.280 to the next phase. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.040 I think it was honestly a bit of both. I 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:49.679 didn't when I first started thinking about transitions, I was 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:51.880 really I wasn't thinking about a book. I was thinking 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.440 about I've been honored and asked to do the Stanford 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.520 commencement speech. And when I talked to the class presidents 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.160 months ahead, saying, you know, what would you like me 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.520 to talk about? What should I not talk about? And 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:04.839 one of the things they talked about was that they 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.120 felt like they were kind of on one track. You know, 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:10.040 get this degree, go to this company, or start this thing. 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:15.360 And they said, if you think there are room for openings, 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.320 if you believe in leaving room for openings or new opportunities, 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.400 can you talk a bit about that? And so as 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:26.040 I wrote that speech, I realized, Okay, I want to 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.719 talk about transitions. But it was afterwards that I went, oh, 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:32.360 my gosh, I'm turning sixty. You know. The speech was 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:35.320 last June. I was turning sixty in August, and I thought, 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:39.599 my gosh, I have been through so many transitions, and 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:44.160 so wow, maybe I have more to say on this. 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:46.400 My mom says that by the time you get to sixty, 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:47.839 you have a lot of things to say on a 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.600 lot of topics, maybe more than you should. But as 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.600 I started reflecting on the transitions, as I wrote the book, 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:59.600 I realized that in those in between spaces is where 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:03.599 the growth comes and where and even if their transitions 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.199 maybe you didn't expect or you didn't want to go through. 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.679 If you take the time, you grow a lot, and 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:14.000 there's a lot of resilience that is formed. And even 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.240 the transitions you expect or you want to come, they 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.760 still require sometimes like going to transition to college, you know, 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:23.400 transitioning to your first job. It takes a leap of 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:27.040 faith and some courage, right, And so I realized, oh, 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.160 that's actually where the magic is in life. 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:35.480 Absolutely, And there was something that struck me really early 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:40.080 in the book when you were reflecting on being pregnant 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.559 with your first daughter, Jen, and you talked about retiring 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:49.160 from Microsoft at the time. And what really struck me 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.679 is I realized you were talking about this retirement in 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.400 a way that felt almost like reflecting on a calling. 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.839 You knew that motherhood was a calling of sorts, and 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.679 you also knew that you had the privilege in your 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.959 marriage at the time to be able to do this, 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.319 and knowing that you wanted to be the kind of 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:15.360 parent that your mother was for you, And I wrote 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.960 a note to myself and I said, this seems so beautiful, 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:20.719 and I wonder if it felt that way, and I 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.200 wonder if it also irked you that it always almost 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.320 always has to be the woman who makes that choice. 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.839 And then the thing that really knocked me over was, 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:35.840 as you reflected further in that early chapter, you talked 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:41.400 about how that pregnancy gave you freedom, you know, and 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:46.720 you wrote freedom from perfectionism, from the crushing, relentless societal pressure, 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.160 et cetera, et cetera. I won't, you know, read you 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.960 to you the whole way through, but it really shook 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.120 me because the way you talk about it and you 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:01.120 reflect on calling on freedom, on and essentially writing your 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.439 own permission slip to live the way you want to. 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:08.080 You write about it like a craving. And I don't 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.199 mean a pregnancy craving, a food craving. I mean like 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:17.080 a like a soulful craving to own yourself. It's such 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.760 a cool way to open a book because I see 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.240 so many versions of myself in these versions of you. 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.160 Is it sort of surreal to shepherd your own story 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.079 and the story of your daughter and the stories of 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.840 so many other women in that way? 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:38.360 Yeah? And I think until you really, at least for me, 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.959 until I sat and reflected even more on it, it 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:46.560 was just a calling. I would just say, a knowing. 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:51.520 I just knew I could not have the career that 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.559 I had at Microsoft, which I loved. It is hard 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.199 charging nine year career that I had always wanted, you know, 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.920 I went from computer science to business school to that. 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.240 But I knew I couldn't be the kind of mother 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:11.760 I wanted to be unless I stopped doing that. And look, 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.000 it is an enormous privilege, enormous And I even knew 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.679 that at the time that I had enough resources that 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:23.680 I could stay home, right, And it's funny because I 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.400 also always knew I would go back and do something. 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.760 I didn't know what, but I knew it wasn't going 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.320 to be the same pace as what I was doing 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:35.000 at Microsoft. And then I did. I got into it, 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.680 and it just felt so good. It felt exactly like 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.520 what I wanted to do. I had summers back, like 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:43.680 one of the things I lamented when I went to 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.880 Microsoft was it wasn't like college or high school where 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:48.400 you had the summer off or your nine or ten 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.160 year old self. And so all of a sudden, I 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.240 had the summers back, and I have this little baby 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:54.520 I can play with like, you know, I could take 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.040 her when there's sandtoys to a beach nearby, or a 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:02.440 picnic with other moms, or bicycle with her. But yes, 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.760 I didn't realize at the time that I was chartering 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.760 a course for myself of who I wanted to be 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.440 in life. And I will say that as much as 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:16.760 I absolutely loved it in the beginning, I did have 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.600 a crisis of self about eighteen months or two years 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.360 into it, because we moved from this beautiful kind of 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.720 idyllic family house that I had picked out during our 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:33.840 engagement down the Street into this enormous mansion, and I 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.120 really had a crisis of self then because I was 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.720 no longer a working a working woman. I have this baby, 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:44.160 but here I am living in a house with a 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.040 gate way up the hill and more security and much 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.640 larger than I had wanted. So I really had to 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:55.640 find myself in that period, and in a way, eventually 0:15:56.360 --> 0:16:00.360 philanthropy found me, or I found myself in it. And 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:04.360 that is something I never ever would have predicted in 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:05.840 life ever well. 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:09.360 And that through line, because what I'm hearing you reflect 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:13.720 on is having the courage to listen to your own 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:18.120 inner voice. You call it a knowing. You knew that 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:20.960 you needed to make this shift for this moment in 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.320 your life. You knew that it wouldn't be permanent, but 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:29.200 whatever came after wouldn't be the same necessarily, And it 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:33.600 strikes such a knowing in me. I think my inner 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.000 voice reading your words went, I know that I know 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.440 what that is. And as I was reflecting on it 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.360 and on this idea of craving and this idea of calling, 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:48.160 it really struck me that you were talking about this 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:54.880 this immense craving or knowing, however you define it, of 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.560 our primal selves. You know that wildness of women are 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:05.639 wizys that is so special in our circles. And I 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.879 was thinking about how what it really is is your voice. 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.280 Your inner voice can become the voice you use in 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.840 the world. It's certainly a voice that, as someone looking 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.800 in on your life, I have admired of yours. And 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.840 I started to wonder, you know, is trusting the knowing 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.800 to finding the voice which came with philanthropy. As you 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:31.679 talk about what found you, I wonder if that's our 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:38.359 gendered knowing that we deserve truly equal footing both in 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:43.000 our home and out in the world, because we have 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.400 all of these ambitions and all of these things even 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.320 before we become parents. And then you become a parent 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:50.120 and you look at a little girl, and how could 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.200 you not want her to have everything, everything that was 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:55.159 denied to you, and everything that was given to you, 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.280 everything you know was denied to our grandmothers. You know, 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:02.639 you want these little girls to have everything and more. 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:08.080 And I don't know, I just couldn't help but see 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:12.560 all this extra stuff in what you're talking about, even 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:16.400 as you so beautifully shared about what a life altering moment, 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.320 this pregnancy and her birth and this whole journey was for. 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:23.600 You, definitely. And I think you know so often as women, 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:26.239 like as I say to all three of my now 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:28.960 adult children, I have a daughter, a son, and a 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:35.000 daughter in that order, you are enough. You're enough on 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:39.400 the day you're born. You're enough. And yet I think 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:46.920 as we go out into society, especially as women, we're told, well, 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.560 that position's not for you, or maybe you're not quite 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.680 ready for that promotion, or you don't see somebody. Maybe 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:54.639 if you aspire, let's say, to be a governor of 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.760 a state, you don't see very many others of them, right, 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.800 and you so you wonder, what could I if that's 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.560 my aspiration, could I get there? Or if you a 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:05.920 young girl wants to be president, she's never seen a 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.879 female president in the United States ever, And so I 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:13.160 think we get all these messages from society maybe somehow 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:16.840 you're not quite enough to get that role or that position, 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.359 or do that thing or start that business. And that 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:25.760 has that really has animated my life, and that I 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:30.280 think is what I learned through philanthropy as I started 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.720 to go out and be out in these low income 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:38.680 countries and realize because it's so obvious there the start 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.439 contrast between men and women and what women are literally 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.480 not allowed to do what men can do. And so 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.160 I kept thinking, oh, if we can as a philanthropy community, 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.800 make the world more equal for them. But it wasn't 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.160 until I turned the question back on myself and said, well, 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:58.240 how far are we really here in our country? And 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.360 I wanted to say, oh, my god, there's so much 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.760 more work to be done in the United States, which 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.280 is the highest income country in the world. And yet yes, 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.320 we are enough on the day we are born. And 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.199 yet women and men don't have equality in our own country, 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.560 and that to me just it shouldn't be. And that 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:21.200 calling of meeting other women who were asking me for 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.280 things as they just knew I was a US citizen 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.800 coming to listen you know in some way that philanthropy 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.840 might help. That calling from those women really started to 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:32.960 animate my life, both in terms of my foundation work, 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:34.600 but also the work I wanted to do here in 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:35.480 the United States. 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:38.600 Yes, and now a word from our sponsors who make 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:53.760 this show possible. It's interesting you talk about that eventual 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.080 moment of having to look back at where you live. 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:01.280 I feel like I've I've had so many of the 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:05.520 in my own way, which is not nearly as large 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:10.920 and global as yours, But in using this career and 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:14.320 platform as I can so many of the same journeys, 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.240 traveling all around the world, wanting to fix what appear 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:23.120 to be the greatest disparities, and then realizing how great 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.920 the disparities are in our own backyard, and how they're 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.600 just a little bit better masked, but they're everywhere. And 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.000 when you realize that it's just the United States and 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:37.800 Papa New Guinea that don't have any guaranteed paid leave, 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.200 and you start to realize, well, that's part of the 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.920 reason the women don't become the CEO or the president, 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:46.800 because we're told if we do start a family, it'll 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.240 take us out of work. But it shouldn't. Men and 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:54.399 women both deserve the opportunity to be at home with 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.920 their new, expanding families and then to return to the workplace, 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.920 and other countries and other systems have designed for that, 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:08.840 and we simply haven't invested in certainly in women, but 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:13.680 we actually haven't invested in families well at all. And 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:18.680 so when did that light bulb occur for you? You know, 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.320 when eventually you decided to start the foundation. You had 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:24.840 these young kids, and it came quicker than you wanted 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:26.760 it to, which I love that you talk about in 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:30.720 the book being like, I don't mean to be ungrateful, 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:34.480 but does this have to happen now? Because I think, 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:36.680 no matter what, we worry that we're we're doing the 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:38.600 wrong thing. We always want to do all the things, 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:40.600 but you can only, you know, spend so many plates 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:44.840 at once. When did the paid leave issue really strike 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:47.119 you as, oh, this has to be one of the 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:50.680 drums we beat consistently and talk about everywhere we go. 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:54.760 Well, as I was traveling on behalf of the foundation, 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:58.359 I would also go to many other high income countries 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:02.200 because we were trying to get their governments to you know, 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:04.120 some of the work that we were doing as a foundation. 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.399 It's really up to governments to scale it up. And 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:10.879 so as I would be out in the UK, or 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.639 in France or in Germany, and women would talk about 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:19.880 their work and their child rearing, and I was seeing 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:22.840 how they would talk about gender. But then when I 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:26.920 would also go to the Nordic countries, to Norway and Sweden, 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:31.080 and I started talking to men and they're like, we 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:33.960 can't believe you all don't have paid family medical leave. 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:37.320 And I would interview them and I'd say, well, well, okay, 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:39.280 do you take time off? And they're like, well, of 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:42.440 course we take time off. Why wouldn't we want to 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:44.400 be with our new child, our son, or our daughter. 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:47.320 And it had and as I started to study and 0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:51.040 learn and realize, Okay, what are the two the two 0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:55.280 biggest barriers that hold women back. It's harassment and abuse 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:59.840 on a continuum and paid family medical leave. And when 0:23:59.880 --> 0:24:01.800 you look when you talk to people in Sweden and 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:05.240 Norway and you realize they've had their policy for so long, 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:08.720 it's a given that it changed the norm in society, 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:12.159 Like norms are hard to change. But men literally say no, no, no, 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:14.320 I'm not taking it because I don't want to leave 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:16.840 money on the table, Like that might have been why 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:20.240 men's first started to take it, but now it's because 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:22.840 I want to be part of the child rearing. 0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:24.440 It just became the norm. 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:27.560 And so that's when I started to realize, wow, And 0:24:27.640 --> 0:24:31.399 that was somewhere around maybe twenty fourteen, that this needed 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:35.720 to change. In the United States, this makes absolutely no sense. 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:41.040 We have these gendered roles that we just expect somehow 0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:43.919 women will work and take care of the kids, right, 0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:47.520 and it doesn't work. I've talked to women all over 0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:49.680 the US, you know, in the South, in the North, 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:52.520 in the East, and the West, and women will say, like, 0:24:53.400 --> 0:24:56.040 I don't know where to leave my child, like if 0:24:56.080 --> 0:24:57.960 I don't have a parent to leave them with, and 0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:00.240 I need to work, if it's a single mom, or 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:02.880 when it comes down to my child is sick, Who's 0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:05.040 going to take them to the pediatrician? I'm the one 0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:07.600 that's expected to And yet there's a penalty at work 0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:11.119 for doing that. You just realize, we just we haven't 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:15.200 advanced like some of these other societies have, particularly in 0:25:15.520 --> 0:25:17.680 the Nordic region, but all over the world that people 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:19.240 are doing paid family medical. 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:25.600 Leave, absolutely and what that does is it actually it's 0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:27.840 not just a disservice to these new families, it's a 0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:32.639 disservice to our society because you see, and I so 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:38.200 appreciate that you talk about these truths so often when 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:41.520 you're working around the world, because I think everybody needs 0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:43.240 to hear them, and they need to hear them regularly. 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:46.920 To your point, so we can change habits or norms 0:25:47.680 --> 0:25:54.119 when women, but families are supported countries do better economically, right, 0:25:54.359 --> 0:25:57.600 they become not only do their GDPs increase, they become 0:25:57.680 --> 0:26:02.719 more technologically innovative. They become places where new ideas are 0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:08.200 born and where leaps in terms of human growth happen. 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:12.600 And so really, when you invest in taking care of families, 0:26:13.000 --> 0:26:17.160 you build a better world. It's not just a moral issue, 0:26:17.200 --> 0:26:19.800 it's also a mathematical one. It's an economic one. And 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:23.600 I think where the math and the morals meet should 0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:25.399 always be the zone we're aiming for. 0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:29.560 Right, definitely, and because we do have to realize that 0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:33.399 women are, by and large around the world, the center 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:38.360 of the family, and if she does well, her children 0:26:38.440 --> 0:26:40.560 have a better chance and the family has a better 0:26:40.720 --> 0:26:45.000 chance of thriving. If she's not doing well, the converse 0:26:45.080 --> 0:26:47.879 is true, the children are less likely to thrive, right. 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:51.159 And so that's why I always say we need to 0:26:51.280 --> 0:26:54.679 lift women up, just remove the barriers that hold them 0:26:54.720 --> 0:26:56.439 down and do what we can to lift them up, 0:26:56.480 --> 0:26:59.760 because they lift up everybody else. And you're absolutely right, 0:27:00.000 --> 0:27:02.720 and it comes down to economics. It has a ripple 0:27:02.720 --> 0:27:04.520 effect throughout society. 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:10.800 Absolutely and has has learning so much of this because 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:13.760 I'll tell you anytime I get a nugget of information 0:27:14.000 --> 0:27:16.240 like that, you know, there's some white paper or some 0:27:16.480 --> 0:27:19.199 great new piece of research from a Nordic country, as 0:27:19.240 --> 0:27:23.160 you say, comes out. It makes me feel so gleeful 0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:28.119 because because it reinforces the knowing, the knowing that we deserve, 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:33.480 the support can now also be proven. And I guess 0:27:33.520 --> 0:27:37.600 I wonder, as someone who holds such great knowing, does 0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:42.600 that kind of make you reflect on where some of 0:27:42.720 --> 0:27:46.600 that expectation around women and even personally for you, that 0:27:46.880 --> 0:27:51.000 guilt spiral that you talked about in trying to balance 0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:55.680 launching the foundation and having three young kids, how that 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:58.640 spiral kind of you know, becomes like a ninja star 0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:04.400 if you will, Because every woman I know who has 0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:07.280 a family, or runs a company, or has a busy 0:28:07.359 --> 0:28:11.040 life or is working two jobs, you know, any fill 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:13.960 in the blank feels like no matter what choice they're making, 0:28:14.200 --> 0:28:17.720 it might be the wrong one. And you said something 0:28:17.800 --> 0:28:20.920 in your book about this guilt spiral that is so 0:28:21.160 --> 0:28:24.200 common for us. I wrote it in all caps in 0:28:24.280 --> 0:28:30.480 my notebook that guilt is an indulgence and that realizing 0:28:30.640 --> 0:28:35.679 that changed everything for you because it made you realize 0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:39.560 guilt is focused on me, on us and you're trying 0:28:39.640 --> 0:28:46.200 to focus out around you. I would imagine it feels doubly, triply, 0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:50.600 quadruply true with all this data. But when you look 0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:54.880 back at when you realize that that aha moment, can 0:28:54.960 --> 0:28:56.880 you talk a little bit about that, where it came 0:28:56.960 --> 0:28:59.720 from and how it had a ripple effect for you 0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:01.120 personally in your life. 0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:04.840 Sure. I finally, when my kids were about middle school age, 0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:07.920 learned this concept that had been come forward by a 0:29:08.000 --> 0:29:14.080 psychologist in the UK about good enough parenting and the 0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:17.760 concept of good enough parenting. They've gone out and collected 0:29:17.840 --> 0:29:22.200 a lot of data over time that one good enough 0:29:22.400 --> 0:29:28.120 parents and kids thrive. They just need one good enough adult. 0:29:28.200 --> 0:29:30.480 And sometimes it's not even the parents. Let's say both 0:29:30.560 --> 0:29:33.600 parents are struggling with something right and balancing a lot. 0:29:34.200 --> 0:29:36.400 If they can have a coach who believes in them, 0:29:36.800 --> 0:29:38.760 they can have a teacher who believes in them, but 0:29:38.880 --> 0:29:44.040 that consistent nurturing of the child, then the child has 0:29:44.080 --> 0:29:48.120 the ability to thrive. And once I could ask myself, 0:29:48.520 --> 0:29:51.120 I was so caught up in this indulgence, as you say, 0:29:51.320 --> 0:29:55.160 of the perfect parent. Whatever the notion of the perfect 0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:57.320 parent is, it was some form. I think of my 0:29:57.520 --> 0:29:59.800 mom who didn't work when I was younger. She worked 0:29:59.800 --> 0:30:02.040 more when I was older. But you know, the be 0:30:02.240 --> 0:30:06.720 there all the time. You know that that notion just 0:30:07.040 --> 0:30:10.840 isn't isn't right, Like there is no such thing. There's 0:30:10.880 --> 0:30:13.880 all kinds of parenting in the world, right, and kids 0:30:14.040 --> 0:30:17.440 thrive in different ways. And so it was more saying 0:30:17.480 --> 0:30:19.920 to myself, you know, going to my journal and saying, hmm, 0:30:20.760 --> 0:30:23.840 am I a good enough parent? Am I good enough? 0:30:24.280 --> 0:30:26.200 And I could start to answer the question. I wrote 0:30:26.200 --> 0:30:28.520 down a few things I was doing, like, by gosh, 0:30:28.680 --> 0:30:31.480 I am a good enough parent, So guess what my 0:30:31.680 --> 0:30:35.360 kids are going to thrive? And so I could let 0:30:35.440 --> 0:30:39.600 down the pressure on myself of perfectionism and on them. 0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:43.320 It just kind of took the whole pressure level down 0:30:43.640 --> 0:30:47.080 in the household and I could be like, yeah, they're 0:30:47.160 --> 0:30:50.400 gonna turn out okay, Like I'm everything right, you know, 0:30:50.800 --> 0:30:54.640 And but that's okay too. My mom didn't get everything 0:30:54.880 --> 0:30:57.880 right right, but she got enough of it right that 0:30:58.120 --> 0:31:00.400 you know, we for thrived as children. 0:31:00.880 --> 0:31:03.840 Yeah, And to your point, what a great thing to 0:31:04.000 --> 0:31:07.600 teach your children that they have a village, that their 0:31:07.760 --> 0:31:10.720 coach is someone they can look up to, that their 0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:13.920 auntie is someone they can always call with a problem 0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:17.320 that their mentor at their internship or their summer job 0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:21.400 is worth listening to. What it strikes me as is 0:31:21.440 --> 0:31:26.400 a wonderful way to build an emotionally intelligent, communicative, and 0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:27.840 resilient child. 0:31:28.760 --> 0:31:31.880 Definitely, And I think you can also teach them. What 0:31:32.000 --> 0:31:35.040 I learned later was also when they were more in 0:31:35.080 --> 0:31:38.680 the high school ages, could you're also teaching them rupture 0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:42.600 and repair? Like maybe you had intended to get to 0:31:42.760 --> 0:31:45.480 that activity after school, you know, and they're on the field, 0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:48.400 but oops, you got stuck in traffic, or you got 0:31:48.440 --> 0:31:50.320 stuck on a phone call and you arrived late and 0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:52.560 you missed the goal, or you missed the thing that 0:31:52.680 --> 0:31:56.600 they were you know, there to do, okay, or maybe 0:31:56.640 --> 0:31:59.120 there's a day. I certainly had days where I lost 0:31:59.200 --> 0:32:03.160 my temper and I I hadn't sure, but going back 0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:09.800 and apologizing, like taking responsibility and then changing your actions 0:32:10.000 --> 0:32:14.200 in the future, you can teach your kids rupture and repair. 0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:17.240 Yes I ruptured, I raised my voice at you because 0:32:17.240 --> 0:32:19.680 I was stressed about something else, but that's no excuse, 0:32:20.080 --> 0:32:24.400 Like I take responsibility, and so what it teaches them 0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:28.160 because the truth is in any healthy relationship a friendship, 0:32:28.280 --> 0:32:31.600 an intimate partner relationship, a work colleague. There will be 0:32:31.840 --> 0:32:35.840 rupture and repair, but it's really how you do the repair. 0:32:38.080 --> 0:32:41.320 And that was another concept. I was like, Oh, it's okay, 0:32:42.120 --> 0:32:46.040 Like it's okay, and I'll teach them something just by 0:32:46.160 --> 0:32:49.080 being me and being real about the relationship and my 0:32:49.280 --> 0:32:51.560 faults and my mistakes exactly. 0:32:51.840 --> 0:32:57.280 And I think it's such a healthier modality and maybe 0:32:57.360 --> 0:33:02.440 strikes me, as you know, such a person point of excitement, 0:33:02.560 --> 0:33:06.719 because I too, am a recovering perfectionist. And the thing 0:33:06.800 --> 0:33:09.560 that undid it for me, you know, in the way 0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:11.920 that you talk about this idea that guilt is an 0:33:11.960 --> 0:33:16.040 indulgence being so revelatory. The thing that was the big 0:33:16.200 --> 0:33:19.080 sort of thought bomb for me was when a friend said, 0:33:19.680 --> 0:33:24.800 don't you understand how toxic perfectionism is. Perfect doesn't exist. 0:33:25.400 --> 0:33:28.840 So if you've been raised or cultured to be a perfectionist, 0:33:29.280 --> 0:33:33.640 you've actually been raised to believe you're a failure. And 0:33:33.920 --> 0:33:40.719 I was like, oh my god, this thing rather than 0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:43.280 just being a human who does great on some days 0:33:43.320 --> 0:33:45.960 and not so great on others, and who tries to 0:33:46.040 --> 0:33:49.640 be a good sum total of their parts, this idea 0:33:49.760 --> 0:33:53.280 that if you're not perfect, you're failing. Really just sets 0:33:53.360 --> 0:33:57.400 us up for failure. So what a gorgeous, more just 0:33:57.520 --> 0:34:00.360 more human way to live. To be a real person 0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:01.600 trying their best. 0:34:02.120 --> 0:34:04.960 That's right, a real person in the world. And you're 0:34:05.000 --> 0:34:07.960 gonna stumble and fall some days, you're gonna be tired, 0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:11.320 you might be a little grouchy, but you know, on 0:34:11.440 --> 0:34:13.399 the next day you get up, you might be kind 0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:16.600 of another version of your best self. And it's okay 0:34:16.680 --> 0:34:20.000 because it also gives other people permission to be their 0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:23.800 full self. Like as I've said to my kids many times, 0:34:24.000 --> 0:34:29.040 my mother said it to me, which is all emotions 0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:33.319 are okay, all of them, mear anger, you know, even 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:35.480 all the ones you would think of as negative emotions 0:34:35.520 --> 0:34:38.680 and all the positive emotions. All emotions are okay. It's 0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:43.160 what you do with them, and so you know, and 0:34:43.280 --> 0:34:46.880 it's also that okay. So maybe you were in anxious 0:34:46.920 --> 0:34:49.400 one day and so you weren't your nicest self. Again, 0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:51.400 you can go back and repair with that person or 0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:53.440 just say I'm so sorry I was having a bad day, 0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:56.920 and it gives them permission later to have a bad day, right. 0:34:57.760 --> 0:35:01.319 Yeah, and to not have it feel so f Yeah, 0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:05.960 nothing has to be such a catastrophe. Even your worst 0:35:06.040 --> 0:35:08.200 day is something that you know, a year from now 0:35:08.239 --> 0:35:10.400 you're going to reflect on and realize it taught you 0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:13.160 something and it's just kind of a blip on the radar. 0:35:14.880 --> 0:35:21.560 And I think that's that's that that resiliency. And on 0:35:21.680 --> 0:35:25.359 the subject of resilience, and let me preface the question 0:35:25.520 --> 0:35:28.640 by saying, listen, if anybody yets not wanting, you know, 0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:31.560 a divorce or a man to be your identity as 0:35:31.560 --> 0:35:36.759 an individual or a woman, it is me. I guess 0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:40.600 I'm curious because you've You've spoken about this, I think, 0:35:40.719 --> 0:35:44.000 really eloquently and beautifully for someone who I'm sure has 0:35:44.040 --> 0:35:48.200 been bombarded with less than eloquent and beautiful questions on 0:35:48.360 --> 0:35:52.600 the subject of that sort of rip and then a 0:35:52.680 --> 0:35:58.319 personal repair, if you will. What has struck me? Having 0:35:58.400 --> 0:36:00.520 gone through it a little more recently than you, and 0:36:00.640 --> 0:36:03.440 I've decided to look up all the women I admire 0:36:03.680 --> 0:36:06.359 been through it and say, like, what have you said 0:36:06.400 --> 0:36:08.480 that will give me some guidance here that I can 0:36:08.600 --> 0:36:13.160 read it to in the morning. You've spoken really beautifully 0:36:13.239 --> 0:36:17.120 about how you wanted to thoughtfully reflect on this. Because 0:36:17.160 --> 0:36:20.440 you are a public figure, there's just no way not to. 0:36:22.080 --> 0:36:29.000 I feel that. For me, what it came down to was, oh, 0:36:30.520 --> 0:36:33.120 I have to admit I think I've made a mistake. 0:36:33.640 --> 0:36:36.160 There are certain things I don't want a model for 0:36:36.280 --> 0:36:38.319 the children. I know I want to be a mother too, 0:36:39.960 --> 0:36:45.520 And I know that can be a very shattering experience 0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:47.920 for women who go through it in the same kind 0:36:47.960 --> 0:36:51.480 of time period that I did. And I really I 0:36:51.560 --> 0:36:55.080 thought so much about your story and about other women 0:36:55.200 --> 0:36:58.520 I know who have experienced that kind of shift or 0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:02.239 transition in that later stage, you know. And for you, 0:37:03.160 --> 0:37:06.560 you were married for twenty seven years, you did raise 0:37:06.600 --> 0:37:10.240 all these babies together. Obviously, you did some gorgeous things together. 0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:13.879 You launched one of the world's most beautiful and accomplished 0:37:13.920 --> 0:37:20.239 philanthropic foundations that you ran, and you advocated as this 0:37:20.440 --> 0:37:24.000 sort of superwoman in my eyes, and all my friends 0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:26.759 who you know, when we got started, were like, yeah, 0:37:26.800 --> 0:37:29.240 we'll go to that conference, Yeah we'll get on that plane. 0:37:29.440 --> 0:37:31.440 Sure we'll show up at this place. Yeah you want 0:37:31.480 --> 0:37:34.400 to go bug everybody in Congress. Let's go, let's stage 0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:36.360 a protest in Washington. Like we didn't know what we 0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:40.359 were doing, but we looked at people like you and said, well, look, 0:37:41.120 --> 0:37:46.000 it's possible. And I guess I just wonder and it 0:37:46.080 --> 0:37:47.920 doesn't have to be a long answer. I realize I've 0:37:47.920 --> 0:37:49.680 been rambling about this for a long time because I've 0:37:49.680 --> 0:37:54.839 thought a lot about it, clearly, but for you knowing 0:37:54.920 --> 0:37:57.279 that your story and your example can actually be a 0:37:57.360 --> 0:38:01.000 gift in terms of resiliency. And I don't mean about 0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:03.440 even the kids, or your ex or anyone, but you, 0:38:03.719 --> 0:38:07.360 the woman Melinda, who if you'd gone through this privately 0:38:07.640 --> 0:38:10.239 in another life, you wouldn't have to talk about it 0:38:10.280 --> 0:38:15.120 out in the world. Is there like, is there a 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:19.279 nugget of wisdom or an aha moment you had that 0:38:19.520 --> 0:38:22.240 made you know that even though the world would be watching, 0:38:23.280 --> 0:38:26.640 which is why so many people stay, that made you 0:38:26.800 --> 0:38:30.400 know that you deserved to choose yourself, that you deserved 0:38:31.640 --> 0:38:34.799 to carve a new path, that you deserved, especially as 0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:39.080 the mother of girls, to say I want something different, deeper, 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:42.880 better for this next phase in my life. Because I 0:38:42.960 --> 0:38:45.880 know there's a lot of women that would give anything 0:38:46.000 --> 0:38:48.239 for that knowing to come to them when they're in 0:38:48.320 --> 0:38:49.920 the moment of do I stay or do I go? 0:38:50.560 --> 0:38:53.560 Yeah, And one thing I would say to anybody going 0:38:53.719 --> 0:38:57.760 through this look, it's just painful, and the knowing comes, 0:38:58.960 --> 0:39:01.000 and you might push it way for a while, like 0:39:01.120 --> 0:39:03.120 so I will tell you the knowing came that I'm like, no, no, no, 0:39:03.200 --> 0:39:05.200 I can't make this work. Knowing came, No, I can 0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:08.600 make this work. Knowing came make So that is, at 0:39:08.680 --> 0:39:11.160 least for me, that was a normal part of the process. 0:39:11.880 --> 0:39:15.399 But at least for me in the end, I had 0:39:15.480 --> 0:39:17.160 to look. You know, when you point your finger at 0:39:17.200 --> 0:39:18.719 somebody else, they say you have to look at the 0:39:18.760 --> 0:39:22.040 three fingers pointing back at yourself, right, yes, you know, yes, 0:39:22.600 --> 0:39:28.880 And I realized there had been some problems it. But ultimately, 0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:32.000 if I was pointing the finger at that person saying 0:39:32.040 --> 0:39:34.359 you betrayed me, I had to look at my three 0:39:34.400 --> 0:39:38.279 fingers pointing back at myself and saying, I'm betraying myself 0:39:38.560 --> 0:39:42.840 and who I am. If I stay I have certain 0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:46.239 values and if I cannot live those values out in 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:50.280 this relationship of who I am and what I believe, 0:39:50.680 --> 0:39:55.920 that I'm betraying myself. And I thought, how horrible is that? 0:39:56.719 --> 0:39:58.800 Do I want to betray myself? 0:39:59.640 --> 0:39:59.839 Yeah? 0:40:00.320 --> 0:40:06.239 No, And so that helped me have the courage to 0:40:07.520 --> 0:40:10.279 eventually do what I did. And the other thing I 0:40:10.480 --> 0:40:13.160 say to people who you know. Some people will come 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:15.480 and talk to me, who are you know contemplating at 0:40:15.960 --> 0:40:18.080 a divorce, And I'll say, look, it is not easy, 0:40:18.400 --> 0:40:20.960 and you know, I wouldn't wish it on any family, 0:40:21.480 --> 0:40:24.200 but I will tell you when it's over, and you know, 0:40:24.440 --> 0:40:26.759 you go through a period of healing. You don't know 0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:28.920 what it is. I don't know what it is, but 0:40:29.320 --> 0:40:33.359 something beautiful will grow on the other side. So by 0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:35.879 letting go of something, you may not know what you're 0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:37.960 going to and you may not even know it for 0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:41.040 a few years, but something beautiful will come on the 0:40:41.080 --> 0:40:43.520 other side, and you will know yourself even better and 0:40:43.600 --> 0:40:46.640 you'll be more resilient for whatever the next big change 0:40:46.680 --> 0:40:48.799 in life is that comes. Yeah. 0:40:49.640 --> 0:40:51.960 Yeah, I think if you can get over the fear 0:40:53.200 --> 0:40:59.200 of the unknown, you can actually wind up discovering the 0:40:59.440 --> 0:41:03.480 joy of the unexpected. That's on the other side of it. 0:41:03.920 --> 0:41:07.640 Definitely, most definitely, And you just have to have the 0:41:07.719 --> 0:41:11.240 courage to say, uh, I may not know what's coming next, 0:41:11.360 --> 0:41:14.880 but okay, out there somewhere is something. And then but 0:41:15.080 --> 0:41:18.120 you learn from that courage. It's just like when we 0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:22.120 teach our kids. Let's say they have to step into 0:41:22.160 --> 0:41:26.160 a new friendship or a new classroom or a new situation. 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:31.200 Where is their self esteem built and where's the resilience built? 0:41:31.560 --> 0:41:35.800 By actually taking that step, that's how they come to 0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:39.520 know what they're capable of and what's inside of them. 0:41:39.760 --> 0:41:42.200 And so it's the same way for us as women 0:41:42.400 --> 0:41:44.439 or men, no matter what age we are, we still 0:41:44.520 --> 0:41:47.279 have to have the courage to take that heart or 0:41:47.320 --> 0:41:48.920 that uncomfortable step, no matter what. 0:41:50.239 --> 0:41:54.759 Yeah, I just think it's really beautiful. Thank you, And 0:41:54.920 --> 0:42:07.520 now a word from our sponsors. Did you have certain 0:42:07.640 --> 0:42:10.360 self care practices because you knew the world would be 0:42:10.400 --> 0:42:14.160 paying attention? Like did you just delete everything off your phone? 0:42:15.160 --> 0:42:17.440 Did you just lock your phone in a safe? Like 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:19.800 I had a couple of days where I was like 0:42:19.880 --> 0:42:21.320 I need to leave the house and I need to 0:42:21.400 --> 0:42:24.800 leave any electronic tether here and I need to just 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:27.279 be outside, you know. And then the next day I 0:42:27.400 --> 0:42:29.799 was like, maybe I need to just power the thing off, 0:42:29.880 --> 0:42:32.160 but have the music because the music helps on the walk. 0:42:32.320 --> 0:42:34.839 Like I really was, it was sort of like doing 0:42:34.880 --> 0:42:36.920 a paint by numbers when the numbers have been erased. 0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:41.439 What were your sort of tools for your own self care? 0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:46.359 I had developed a lot of tools for self care 0:42:47.120 --> 0:42:50.239 in that in between space, you know, where once you 0:42:50.600 --> 0:42:52.920 have made the decision that you need to leave, but 0:42:53.000 --> 0:42:55.160 then there's you know, a time before it can be 0:42:55.520 --> 0:42:57.800 actually happen and be executed right. 0:42:58.400 --> 0:43:03.960 I'd imagine, also, especially at the echelon of Life Global Foundation, 0:43:04.040 --> 0:43:07.360 I can't even imagine the complexity. The paperwork nearly killed me. 0:43:08.640 --> 0:43:09.440 I can't. 0:43:09.640 --> 0:43:12.879 I can't fathom it for you. So just hats off 0:43:13.000 --> 0:43:14.600 that you've made it to the other side, and you 0:43:14.680 --> 0:43:17.080 haven't you're not in the corner like eating your own hair. 0:43:17.160 --> 0:43:19.640 I'm amazed. There are a few days I could have 0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:22.840 done that, but I was lucky enough to be surrounded 0:43:22.920 --> 0:43:26.479 by an amazing tiny team of people helping me write. 0:43:27.280 --> 0:43:29.440 But I had to learn self care during that in 0:43:29.600 --> 0:43:32.680 between time where I didn't know when the divorce would 0:43:32.680 --> 0:43:35.880 get announced, how it would all get split up, what 0:43:36.640 --> 0:43:39.560 was to come. That's when I developed all my self 0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:43.440 care techniques. And that was included, you know, walking with 0:43:43.560 --> 0:43:46.080 a friend at a moment's notice, walking with a friends, 0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:49.280 some friends on a routine basis. I talk about therapy 0:43:49.440 --> 0:43:52.000 in the book, which I never expected to write about, 0:43:52.080 --> 0:43:55.480 and I was a skeptical of therapy, but talking to 0:43:55.600 --> 0:43:58.480 my therapist. Sometimes I just needed to reach out to 0:43:58.520 --> 0:44:00.960 friends who had no idea that I was separated, just 0:44:01.040 --> 0:44:04.239 to go have some fun. Or other times I was 0:44:04.280 --> 0:44:06.239 saying to somebody, this morning, I would just listen to 0:44:06.320 --> 0:44:08.560 a book, a piece of fiction, and that would just 0:44:08.960 --> 0:44:12.520 take me away. But a lot being out in nature 0:44:14.400 --> 0:44:17.640 helped kind of just get me away from a very 0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:21.760 tense situation. So I had all those self care tools. 0:44:21.840 --> 0:44:24.720 Then when it went public, and so to be honest, 0:44:25.960 --> 0:44:29.520 I had already gone through the hardest part behind the scenes, 0:44:29.560 --> 0:44:31.040 and so then it was just kind of like, Okay, 0:44:31.120 --> 0:44:33.759 finally it's out there, right, Yeah, And I didn't go 0:44:33.840 --> 0:44:36.279 look at my phone. My youngest daughter would show me 0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:37.960 a few things and I'd be like, okay, that's enough. 0:44:38.080 --> 0:44:41.799 You know. I go outside and you know, sit by 0:44:41.800 --> 0:44:43.760 the lake, listen to some birds. I like to swing. 0:44:43.960 --> 0:44:45.680 We had a swing set in our yard back then, 0:44:45.760 --> 0:44:46.439 so I go swing. 0:44:47.200 --> 0:44:51.560 Yeah, it is interesting, the little things, you know, as 0:44:52.080 --> 0:44:55.440 time would have it. My my best friend in the world. 0:44:55.560 --> 0:44:59.080 Who is I mean, she's my everything, She's my business partner, 0:44:59.360 --> 0:45:03.520 you know, my my sister. For all intents and purposes. 0:45:04.800 --> 0:45:07.600 We went through this at exactly the same time, in 0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:12.200 exactly the same summer. It was, you know, a wild time, 0:45:12.280 --> 0:45:14.720 and out of the woodwork came so many other friends. 0:45:14.880 --> 0:45:18.160 Interestingly enough, best friend from college, one of my dearest 0:45:18.200 --> 0:45:21.040 friends from my activist space, one of my friends, you know, 0:45:21.200 --> 0:45:24.400 dealing with a spouse with addiction. Like, we had this 0:45:24.480 --> 0:45:27.920 sort of cocoon of women. And I remember on the 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:30.080 day that I knew my news would go public and 0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:34.720 I was like, oh God, my best friend FaceTime from Detroit, 0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:37.520 one of my other friends came over and we walked 0:45:37.560 --> 0:45:41.040 around the house. We saged my whole house together. Knowing 0:45:41.160 --> 0:45:42.879 we were on a countdown, I was like, Okay, six 0:45:42.960 --> 0:45:45.880 more minutes. And we did this whole little ceremony together. 0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:49.720 And then we had a girlfriend who was refreshing the internet, 0:45:50.160 --> 0:45:52.640 and the minute it hit she was like, it's up. 0:45:53.200 --> 0:45:55.080 We popped a bottle of champagne because they were like, 0:45:55.120 --> 0:45:57.920 we're just going to reframe this for you. This doesn't 0:45:57.960 --> 0:46:00.160 have to be a sad thing. We're so proud out 0:46:00.200 --> 0:46:05.279 of you. And after that, I turned my phone on 0:46:05.320 --> 0:46:07.600 airplane mode and I literally put it away for three days. 0:46:07.600 --> 0:46:09.360 It was a Friday. I was like I'll turn it 0:46:09.440 --> 0:46:10.240 back on on Monday. 0:46:10.560 --> 0:46:10.920 Perfect. 0:46:11.000 --> 0:46:12.680 Anybody who really needs to talk to me, you can 0:46:12.760 --> 0:46:16.320 call my landline from nineteen ninety six and that'll be that. 0:46:16.920 --> 0:46:19.160 And it was this sort of gorgeous thing, and it 0:46:19.440 --> 0:46:24.600 was to your point. The community of women, that village, 0:46:24.680 --> 0:46:27.759 that sisterhood. They helped me take something that in the 0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:31.000 in between had been so difficult and painful and scary, 0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:34.120 and they turned it into a moment where I got 0:46:34.160 --> 0:46:37.760 to celebrate my own courage. And it was so simple 0:46:37.920 --> 0:46:43.040 and so sweet. And that is the thing I come 0:46:43.160 --> 0:46:45.520 back to again and again for people like yourself or 0:46:45.600 --> 0:46:49.719 myself who can't go through private things privately. And I 0:46:49.880 --> 0:46:52.160 just think, well, if we can set that little example, 0:46:52.640 --> 0:46:54.640 if we can encourage another group of friends to pop 0:46:54.680 --> 0:46:57.279 a bottle of champagne for somebody I'm in. 0:46:58.600 --> 0:47:01.719 And I think you said one other important thing, which 0:47:01.840 --> 0:47:06.440 is to name internally what we are good at. And 0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:08.600 I think sometimes we don't see it, like maybe you 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:11.600 didn't see the courage, but your friends saw the courage. 0:47:12.080 --> 0:47:15.160 And so for your friends to name that attribute in 0:47:15.360 --> 0:47:20.000 you and celebrate that attribute, I think as women, that's 0:47:20.080 --> 0:47:22.799 another really healthy thing that we can. 0:47:22.800 --> 0:47:26.879 Get I do too, I really do too, and it's 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:29.960 it is the sort of thing that builds resiliency so 0:47:30.120 --> 0:47:34.200 that you can have touch points where you really connect 0:47:34.200 --> 0:47:38.000 to yourself in moments of joy or sorrow. You know, 0:47:38.360 --> 0:47:40.799 you you talk in the third chapter of your book 0:47:40.880 --> 0:47:45.399 about such a heavy experience that sadly, I think when 0:47:45.400 --> 0:47:47.800 you get to a certain age we can all expect. 0:47:48.160 --> 0:47:50.160 And you lost a dear friend. 0:47:50.280 --> 0:47:51.440 I mean who was young, you. 0:47:51.480 --> 0:47:53.680 Know, thirty seven or thirty eight, I believe you said, 0:47:54.440 --> 0:47:58.040 your friend John. And going through cancer and going through 0:47:58.200 --> 0:48:02.439 loss with someone very surreal thing when a friend your 0:48:02.560 --> 0:48:07.120 age passes away and you write about how you learned 0:48:07.960 --> 0:48:12.120 to grieve and how you were grieving in community and 0:48:12.280 --> 0:48:18.120 in friendship with you know, his wife, and it's so devastating, 0:48:18.200 --> 0:48:22.239 but it's so uplifting at the same time. You know, 0:48:22.360 --> 0:48:25.640 as a reader who's now been through this sort of 0:48:25.719 --> 0:48:29.680 shock in my own life, I just thought, Wow, this 0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:35.440 is such a beautiful handbook in a way for how 0:48:35.600 --> 0:48:38.719 to experience something like this and come out of it 0:48:39.719 --> 0:48:43.840 both having held your own grief authentically, not you know, 0:48:44.000 --> 0:48:49.960 turning your back on yourself or your experience, and realizing 0:48:50.080 --> 0:48:52.560 how you can still claim the joy of what it 0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:57.319 was out of it is the lesson that you had 0:48:57.400 --> 0:49:01.360 at that time. Now, in hindsight, do you think that 0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:04.360 John has kind of continued to be a teacher for 0:49:04.600 --> 0:49:05.600 you in your life? 0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:10.360 For sure, both in how he lived his life. You know, 0:49:10.520 --> 0:49:13.560 we were in a very rough and tumble tech industry, 0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:18.400 in a pretty rough and tumble culture at Microsoft, right, 0:49:18.400 --> 0:49:23.520 a lot of sharp elbows creating amazing things, and we were, Uh. 0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:26.360 It was energetic and fun in a certain way, but 0:49:26.440 --> 0:49:29.000 it was tough. And so to see him live his 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:32.160 life as himself, I mean, there wasn't a person that 0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:34.359 you'd go around and you just knew who the good 0:49:34.440 --> 0:49:36.960 people were in the company, and he was one of them. 0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:40.800 He was celebrated for that and was himself. And so 0:49:40.960 --> 0:49:44.680 by getting to write about him in this book, I 0:49:44.800 --> 0:49:49.320 think I've gotten to keep alive a bit who he was. 0:49:51.000 --> 0:49:54.239 And one of his three he left, as I say 0:49:54.280 --> 0:49:58.000 in the book, three very young children behind, who who 0:49:58.040 --> 0:50:01.360 I still know. And one of his daughters came to 0:50:01.440 --> 0:50:03.480 one of my book events and I talked to her 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:06.200 for a while afterwards, and she said, you know, Melinda, 0:50:06.239 --> 0:50:08.560 this has been so helpful. It's been cathartic for me. 0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:11.040 To see how you saw my dad. Because I didn't 0:50:11.080 --> 0:50:14.080 get to know him I was little. I read about him. 0:50:14.160 --> 0:50:16.680 You know, my mom's told me stories my aunts and uncles, 0:50:16.960 --> 0:50:18.920 but she said, to hear how he was as a 0:50:19.040 --> 0:50:22.640 friend and then be able to share that with my friends, 0:50:22.760 --> 0:50:27.040 she said, or my therapist, or my community. They get 0:50:27.120 --> 0:50:31.359 to see my father in a different way than even 0:50:31.440 --> 0:50:36.359 as I've described him. And so that's been a gift 0:50:36.480 --> 0:50:41.120 that I think still comes like he he comes through 0:50:41.480 --> 0:50:44.080 those stories. But as I talk about in the book, 0:50:44.120 --> 0:50:48.600 what I learned was these concentric circles around the person 0:50:48.640 --> 0:50:51.120 who's in the center, who is going through let's say, 0:50:51.160 --> 0:50:54.200 a tough illness or potentially a death. You have to 0:50:54.400 --> 0:50:58.440 really understand which ring you are on relative to that person. 0:50:59.360 --> 0:51:02.520 Are you in that innermost ring, are you family? Are 0:51:02.560 --> 0:51:04.560 you in the next ring of friendship? Are you two 0:51:04.760 --> 0:51:07.360 or three rings or four rings out? And what you 0:51:07.520 --> 0:51:11.320 do is you always provide comfort towards the center of 0:51:11.400 --> 0:51:14.840 those rings, everybody who's the closest and that person, and 0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:17.080 you dump your grief to people who are on the 0:51:17.200 --> 0:51:20.759 outside of those rings further out right wow, so that 0:51:20.840 --> 0:51:23.719 you don't take your issues. And because of course I 0:51:23.920 --> 0:51:25.839 was grieving as I knew we were going to lose him. 0:51:25.920 --> 0:51:27.680 But I'm not going to take that to him or 0:51:27.760 --> 0:51:31.560 to his wife, Emmy. Right, that's completely putting my issue 0:51:31.719 --> 0:51:34.239 on them. I just want to be support to them. 0:51:34.360 --> 0:51:37.319 But I could grieve to my other friends who knew 0:51:37.360 --> 0:51:38.920 him but weren't as close to him. Right. 0:51:39.480 --> 0:51:43.840 Yeah, it's something you can model reading about it. It's 0:51:43.880 --> 0:51:47.200 a lesson you can take with you, and I think 0:51:47.239 --> 0:51:49.600 that that is one of the marks of a beautiful book. 0:51:50.520 --> 0:52:03.160 And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, I want 0:52:03.200 --> 0:52:05.759 to pivot, which is a word I know you love 0:52:06.280 --> 0:52:09.919 because I did this with Michelle Obama and you guys 0:52:10.040 --> 0:52:18.600 have really amazing like mentor but also wonderful, approachable woman energy, 0:52:19.080 --> 0:52:21.360 and I loved reading about her in your book. And 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:23.560 I want to just ask you like a quick fun 0:52:23.719 --> 0:52:26.439 round of questions and then I'll ask you my last 0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:31.000 and most excited or most most precious. But when you 0:52:31.120 --> 0:52:34.239 talk about your friends, who like, who's your girl crew, 0:52:34.640 --> 0:52:36.960 who do you call, who are your people, who do 0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:40.239 you go on walks with? What does that world look 0:52:40.320 --> 0:52:41.480 like for you in your village? 0:52:41.800 --> 0:52:43.839 Well, I talk about these three women that I call 0:52:43.960 --> 0:52:47.279 my truth counsel. One of them is Charlotte Geimon. I 0:52:47.440 --> 0:52:50.440 met her within the first three weeks of starting at Microsoft. 0:52:51.320 --> 0:52:54.120 Another one is Emmy Nielson, who's the white was the 0:52:54.200 --> 0:52:56.720 wife of the friend John who I met at Microsoft 0:52:56.719 --> 0:52:59.320 who passed away. And another one is Killian No And 0:52:59.480 --> 0:53:02.000 she moved move to Seattle when her husband took a 0:53:02.120 --> 0:53:06.480 job in Seattle, and she literally left an entire organization 0:53:06.640 --> 0:53:10.200 that she started in Washington, d C. And restarted here 0:53:10.280 --> 0:53:14.879 in Seattle. And so they are my Monday morning walking group. 0:53:15.080 --> 0:53:20.160 We text many, many, many times a week. I still 0:53:20.440 --> 0:53:23.520 am very very close to my high school friend Mary Lehman. 0:53:23.600 --> 0:53:26.040 We met on the first day of high school, literally 0:53:26.080 --> 0:53:28.680 the first day. And she's somebody that you know, I've 0:53:28.719 --> 0:53:31.320 reached out to in an emergency when I need something, 0:53:32.280 --> 0:53:34.960 or she's reached out when I'm really joyful or vice versa. 0:53:35.880 --> 0:53:39.200 She'll actually see my parents this weekend moraal day weekend 0:53:39.600 --> 0:53:41.879 when she's down near where they live as she goes 0:53:41.920 --> 0:53:44.960 to her nephew's graduation. So, yeah, those are some of 0:53:45.080 --> 0:53:47.200 my community. Yeah, I think. 0:53:47.120 --> 0:53:50.440 About my high school girl text thread and you know, 0:53:50.560 --> 0:53:53.520 my best girlfriends like Nia, who I was telling you 0:53:53.600 --> 0:53:58.000 about it is these little crews of women I think 0:53:58.120 --> 0:54:02.359 really become some of our built box of self when 0:54:02.400 --> 0:54:04.560 you're not walking with them, when you're maybe going out 0:54:04.640 --> 0:54:08.120 for like a nice a nice girls dinner. What's your 0:54:08.200 --> 0:54:09.000 drink of choice? 0:54:09.560 --> 0:54:13.080 Oh gosh it. For years it was a lemon drop, 0:54:13.640 --> 0:54:16.520 and now I would say it's a Manhattan. Pretty much 0:54:16.560 --> 0:54:18.520 wherever I go, I order Manhattan. 0:54:18.800 --> 0:54:21.360 Very chic. I went through an old fashioned phase and 0:54:21.760 --> 0:54:24.200 I loved when I'd order that at a bar and 0:54:24.280 --> 0:54:27.120 a bartender would kind of raise his eyebrows at me, 0:54:27.200 --> 0:54:29.480 and I'd be like, Yeah, I've really done it. Look 0:54:29.520 --> 0:54:32.520 at me. What do you think is your dream meal? 0:54:33.440 --> 0:54:36.880 Oh? My dream meal is Mexican food. I grew up 0:54:36.880 --> 0:54:40.960 in Dallas, and anything with guacamolean chips, be it a taco, 0:54:41.200 --> 0:54:43.400 be it enchiladas. Just sign me up. 0:54:44.280 --> 0:54:48.640 I have a literal little parking lot hut taco place 0:54:48.680 --> 0:54:51.279 in La. Next time you're on the West Coast, I'm going. 0:54:51.280 --> 0:54:53.840 To take you. Okay, great, What is a place that 0:54:54.000 --> 0:54:54.600 you would. 0:54:54.440 --> 0:54:59.680 Love to visit if you could visit completely anonymously, just 0:54:59.760 --> 0:55:01.200 to wander around for a day. 0:55:02.040 --> 0:55:04.279 Oh well, first of all, I can still go many 0:55:04.320 --> 0:55:08.120 places anonymously. It's wonderful. Yes, it's wonderful. 0:55:08.320 --> 0:55:09.040 That shocks me. 0:55:09.280 --> 0:55:13.560 And oh gosh, Sydney, Australia, it's just it's a city 0:55:13.640 --> 0:55:15.920 I love to walk in. I love the nature there, 0:55:15.960 --> 0:55:18.640 I love the architecture. I like the people and the beaches. 0:55:18.880 --> 0:55:20.800 Yeah, that's so cool. 0:55:21.120 --> 0:55:22.000 Oh I just love that. 0:55:22.520 --> 0:55:25.600 Okay, So I have another pivot for you, And this 0:55:25.760 --> 0:55:31.280 is a question about finance. What you're doing at Pivotal Ventures. 0:55:31.440 --> 0:55:34.640 The way that you are upending some of the venture 0:55:34.719 --> 0:55:40.279 capital world and investing in women really inspires me. Nia 0:55:40.360 --> 0:55:42.360 and I have been on a very similar journey, you know, 0:55:42.480 --> 0:55:45.520 doing a lot of philanthropic work together and petitioning for 0:55:45.560 --> 0:55:49.040 a lot of corporate social responsibility checks. We eventually came 0:55:49.080 --> 0:55:51.920 to a realization and in the words of you know, 0:55:52.000 --> 0:55:55.160 the late great Desmond too too, you can only pull 0:55:55.239 --> 0:55:57.080 people out of the river for long enough before you 0:55:57.160 --> 0:56:00.440 walk upstream and figure out who's pushing them in. And 0:56:00.920 --> 0:56:05.839 the push seems to come from inequity in the world, right, 0:56:05.960 --> 0:56:08.520 And if you want to change equality, you have to 0:56:08.600 --> 0:56:12.600 change the way money moves. Yes, and so we also 0:56:12.680 --> 0:56:17.160 work in venture now and you are a north star 0:56:17.560 --> 0:56:20.840 for us. The way that you work and what you 0:56:20.960 --> 0:56:23.919 all do. And I guess I just wonder for any 0:56:24.080 --> 0:56:27.600 young women who want to get into investing, or who 0:56:27.680 --> 0:56:31.600 maybe are early in their careers in finance, what have 0:56:31.719 --> 0:56:34.680 you learned since you shifted your sole focus from being 0:56:34.719 --> 0:56:39.399 philanthropic into encompassing finance, And what advice would you give 0:56:39.640 --> 0:56:43.600 to women who really want to do well and do good. 0:56:45.040 --> 0:56:48.320 What I say to women who choose to do investing 0:56:48.640 --> 0:56:53.960 is invest in the things that are closest to you 0:56:54.840 --> 0:56:56.840 and that are proximal and that you feel like you 0:56:56.920 --> 0:56:59.640 can get your hands around and know. So one of 0:56:59.680 --> 0:57:01.239 the things as I do and I believe you do, 0:57:01.640 --> 0:57:06.960 is I invest in, for instance, limited partners who invest 0:57:07.200 --> 0:57:10.239 in more women led companies. Why do I do that? 0:57:10.719 --> 0:57:15.160 Because so often women's businesses don't get capitalized, and yet 0:57:15.320 --> 0:57:18.840 they have an incredible lens, not a better lens, not 0:57:18.960 --> 0:57:23.640 a worse lens than men, just a different lens on society. 0:57:24.360 --> 0:57:27.160 And so some of the limited partners that I've invested 0:57:27.160 --> 0:57:30.000 in who've invested in others, are you know some of 0:57:30.040 --> 0:57:32.920 the businesses are turn out to be around women's healthcare, 0:57:33.320 --> 0:57:36.520 like statewide in a whole state, holistic health for women, 0:57:37.200 --> 0:57:40.080 or have to do with mental health, for people in 0:57:40.160 --> 0:57:44.960 the postpartum phase, or maybe young people teens going through 0:57:45.000 --> 0:57:48.600 mental health crisis or eating disorders. Like, it's just they 0:57:48.720 --> 0:57:52.280 have a different lens even on caregiving, because more of 0:57:52.360 --> 0:57:56.440 them have now caregived for not just kids, but elderly parents. 0:57:57.120 --> 0:57:59.480 So I just say, you know, invest in people who 0:57:59.520 --> 0:58:02.360 are going to and everybody else and who have a 0:58:02.400 --> 0:58:03.000 different lens. 0:58:03.600 --> 0:58:07.160 Yes, And you're what I'm hearing you say goes back 0:58:07.200 --> 0:58:10.440 to that point about the math and the morals, because 0:58:10.480 --> 0:58:13.880 they meet. Because if you are not investing in fifty 0:58:13.960 --> 0:58:17.160 one percent of the economy, I always say you're missing 0:58:17.160 --> 0:58:20.560 out on fifty one percent of their returns, definitely, And 0:58:20.760 --> 0:58:25.160 so it feels really exciting to see people waking up 0:58:25.200 --> 0:58:28.080 to this and having this sort of aha moment out 0:58:28.160 --> 0:58:28.920 in that space. 0:58:29.320 --> 0:58:31.120 And I think it takes a bit of courage to 0:58:31.280 --> 0:58:33.880 invest in a different way. I mean, why do you 0:58:34.040 --> 0:58:36.720 see a lot of vcs investing in the same types 0:58:36.760 --> 0:58:39.280 of businesses. It's because it's what they know or they've 0:58:39.280 --> 0:58:42.680 gotten used to. But so we're using some courage to 0:58:42.760 --> 0:58:46.560 invest in things we haven't seen get capitalized before. But 0:58:46.720 --> 0:58:49.680 one thing I do know about finance is people don't 0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:51.760 like to leave money on the table. So when you're 0:58:52.120 --> 0:58:55.479 investment thesis is played out, give us you know takes 0:58:55.520 --> 0:58:58.200 eight ten years. Fine. I have a feeling you'll see 0:58:58.200 --> 0:59:01.000 a lot of other people crowding in because I agree, 0:59:01.440 --> 0:59:03.640 why did I leave? You know, why didn't I look 0:59:03.680 --> 0:59:04.360 at that sector? 0:59:04.920 --> 0:59:06.840 I agree. It's the same way I feel about what 0:59:06.960 --> 0:59:08.800 we do at our fund. We do a lot of 0:59:08.840 --> 0:59:11.960 work in Michigan because we're very passionate about the Midwest, 0:59:12.440 --> 0:59:14.280 and a lot of people don't get it, and I'm like, 0:59:14.920 --> 0:59:17.840 do you really want to miss it out? I don't 0:59:17.880 --> 0:59:21.560 think so, And so it feels exciting to remind people 0:59:21.800 --> 0:59:25.400 of that. And gosh, I just I think the whole 0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:29.320 lens of your world is exciting. All of it is motivating, 0:59:29.440 --> 0:59:32.280 I know for me and for so many you know 0:59:32.400 --> 0:59:34.960 of my friends who were all absolutely geeked that I 0:59:35.080 --> 0:59:37.320 was going to get to talk to you today. I'm 0:59:37.360 --> 0:59:39.760 going to ask you my favorite question to end an 0:59:39.800 --> 0:59:43.320 interview with, and someday I'll ask you the rest. When 0:59:43.400 --> 0:59:47.080 you look out at the rest of the year, your 0:59:47.120 --> 0:59:51.000 summer which is about to hit, thankfully, and the way 0:59:51.040 --> 0:59:54.160 that you think about these next chapters that are coming 0:59:54.680 --> 0:59:57.840 after having reflected on so many chapters in your life 0:59:57.960 --> 1:00:02.320 in your book so beautifully, when you look forward, what 1:00:02.440 --> 1:00:03.800 feels like your work in progress? 1:00:04.440 --> 1:00:07.800 My work in progress on myself or in my company. 1:00:08.080 --> 1:00:10.240 Either both, whatever strikes you. 1:00:10.520 --> 1:00:13.160 I think I'm always a work in progress. I hope 1:00:13.200 --> 1:00:17.240 I always am. But for me, I feel like I've 1:00:17.400 --> 1:00:21.080 learned to have courage and to trust other people a lot. 1:00:21.520 --> 1:00:24.480 So as my team brings forward ideas or as I 1:00:24.680 --> 1:00:27.640 see something new, I feel like I have much more 1:00:27.720 --> 1:00:30.560 the courage these days last ten years to go explore 1:00:30.720 --> 1:00:33.960 whole new areas. And so for me, that's just exciting. 1:00:34.040 --> 1:00:36.360 It goes back to that word discover. What else can 1:00:36.440 --> 1:00:40.000 I discover? You know? What else should we be funding 1:00:40.040 --> 1:00:42.520 that we're not seeing right now? What is somebody else 1:00:42.560 --> 1:00:45.280 seeing that I'm not seeing? So for me, it's all 1:00:45.360 --> 1:00:49.680 about finding partners who have good ideas and making sure 1:00:49.760 --> 1:00:52.440 we fund them, because to me, those are the force 1:00:52.640 --> 1:00:56.040 multipliers in life, and that just excites me. The sort 1:00:56.040 --> 1:01:00.720 of undiscovered yet both in work and in inside of 1:01:00.840 --> 1:01:03.320 myself of who I am. To me, that's always exciting. 1:01:04.240 --> 1:01:08.360 You're an explorer, yeah, I guess so. I love it. 1:01:08.840 --> 1:01:12.680 I love it being a modern day Explorer feels right. 1:01:13.480 --> 1:01:16.240 Thank you, yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for 1:01:16.360 --> 1:01:19.680 sharing you know, your thoughts reflections, not only in the 1:01:19.720 --> 1:01:22.840 book but on the show today. It's just been an 1:01:22.880 --> 1:01:23.720 absolute joy. 1:01:24.080 --> 1:01:26.600 Well, thank you so much for having me and for 1:01:26.720 --> 1:01:29.400 all you're doing through your activism and you're investing. I 1:01:29.560 --> 1:01:32.320 just really admire it too, so back at you. 1:01:32.960 --> 1:01:34.920 You paved the way for us, so thank you so 1:01:35.120 --> 1:01:38.479 much for giving us an example. Many of us didn't 1:01:38.480 --> 1:01:40.320 grow up with it at home, so it really has 1:01:40.360 --> 1:01:43.960 been incredibly meaningful to you know, be out in the 1:01:44.040 --> 1:01:45.800 world and always get to see what you're up to. 1:01:46.280 --> 1:01:48.040 Thank you, Thank you so much. 1:01:48.320 --> 1:01:48.680 Bye bye,